The (potential) problem:
The augmentation system seems like it could be a pain to balance because if there's even one slightly overpowered augment, a psion can just grab that power and spam it over and over again in combat. Rain of Blows was a bit cheap as it was, but imagine if a high level fighter was able to sacrifice all of his other encounter powers to cast Rain of Blows 5 or more times in one combat. The fact that encounter powers were only once per encounter effectively served as a built in limiting factor on even the most powerful of them.
With the augmentation system, however, if there's even one low level augment that's a bit overpowered, there's nothing stopping a psion from using it throughout their career. By 30th level they will have 17 power points (assuming a psionic paragon class) and thus be able to use a heroic tier augment power 8 times in one combat. If the skills aren't balanced really, really well, this will be a pain for DMs.
Also, right now I don't think the augment 6 powers are 3 times as good as the augment 2 powers, so I suspect the best way (the mechanically best way, that is) to build a psion is just to stick with low level powers that include nice debuffs and spam them all day long. In addition to potential balance issues, this also makes for a really boring character. One of the things I like about the old encounter system is that it forces you to try to find a good use for a variety of different abilities, instead of just picking the one that's best for the current situation and spamming it again and again.
So my questions are, do other folks think these are valid concerns? Is there anyone who really likes the idea of a character who can shoot off one power over and over without needing to change it up? As a DM would you worry about the balance issues this raises?
Also, what do people think about this houserule that I am already considering:
Each time you use a particular augment on a particular ability, the cost of using that same augment goes up by 1 power point. When you take a short rest, the cost of all your augments returns to their base number.
That rule would mean that a character who wanted to spam the 2 point augment of a particular heroic level at-will over and over would only be able to get at most four shots of it off, at a cost of 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 14 power points. This would at least stop someone from having the equivalent of 8 encounter abilities in one encounter.
Is there anyone who really likes the idea of a character who can shoot off one power over and over without needing to change it up?
Someone wanting to make a character based on the Shadow - who only has one real schtick - would be well-advised to rely on Memory Hole almost exclusively (until level 27, when they could replace it with Psionic Veil). The slightly more awesome version of the Shadow who not only hides himself from his enemies but tricks them into killing each other would use Memory Hole every round and then use an action point to bring out Betrayal.
Or there's the Master, who would use Betrayal constantly. Or Charles Xavier, who... OK, bad example, as the only power he uses all the time is a per-encounter class feature.
Also, what do people think about this houserule that I am already considering:
Each time you use a particular augment on a particular ability, the cost of using that same augment goes up by 1 power point. When you take a short rest, the cost of all your augments returns to their base number.
That rule would mean that a character who wanted to spam the 2 point augment of a particular heroic level at-will over and over would only be able to get at most four shots of it off, at a cost of 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 14 power points. This would at least stop someone from having the equivalent of 8 encounter abilities in one encounter.
Good idea, but the execution is cluttered. I think it's too complicated to be an ideal solution, because you'd have to keep a count of every time you use each augment for every power until you run out of Power Points, every single encounter! That's more bookkeeping than 4E likes.
My suggestion: How about if you augment the same attack power (no matter which augment of that power you use) for two or more standard actions in a row, the PP cost of each augment beyond first is double the listed cost. For example, if Billy augments his Super Psion Attack with 6 power points in round 1, during the next round the PP cost of augmenting Super Psion Attack (whether for either 2 points or 6 points) is double the listed cost. Let's say he chose to use the 2 PP augment of Super Psion Attack; now, because he used an augmented version of the same power for his previous attack, the cost of augmenting Super Psion Attack for 2 PP is doubled to 4 PP. However, if Billy decides to augment Ultra Psion Attack in round 2, the cost of augmenting that power is normal, as is the cost of augmenting Super Psion Attack again in round 3.
The wording would need to be clarified, mind you. However, I think the effect is similar (but not exactly the same) as with your suggestion, but it will require less bookkeeping.
So my questions are, do other folks think these are valid concerns? Is there anyone who really likes the idea of a character who can shoot off one power over and over without needing to change it up? As a DM would you worry about the balance issues this raises?
If you are concerned about an overpowered at-will with augments, it is not the power point system that is the problem. It is the power. If the power is the problem, the solution is to fix the power, not fix the power point system. I will use the Rain of Blows power as an example.
The Rain of Blows power (before the errata) is overpowered. If you could use that power twice, it is considered way overpowered. There is a way to use it more than once. Humans who take the Adroit Explorer paragon path can choose to gain Rain of Blows twice. The problem is not with the Adroit Explorer PP feature that allows you to take Rain of Blows twice. Fixing the Adroit Explorer PP is not the solution. The solution is to fix the Rain of Blows power. They did this and now there is no problem.
Also, what do people think about this houserule that I am already considering:
Each time you use a particular augment on a particular ability, the cost of using that same augment goes up by 1 power point. When you take a short rest, the cost of all your augments returns to their base number.
That rule would mean that a character who wanted to spam the 2 point augment of a particular heroic level at-will over and over would only be able to get at most four shots of it off, at a cost of 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 14 power points. This would at least stop someone from having the equivalent of 8 encounter abilities in one encounter.
As I said before, if the problem is with the power, show me the power that is the problem and fix the power. By changing the augmentation rules to make it more expensive, you are essentially trying to fix the one broken power by making the power and every other non-broken power weaker. The proper solution is to fix the power, especially of augmentation works and is balanced for every single power. Overhauling the augmentation system so that it affects every power including the balanced ones is overkill.
Two things to note. The lower augment of each augmentable power doesn't provide a bonus to damage (for the most part, there may have been one I missed). The higher augment does. While I know controller's aren't exactly machines of destruction, constantly spamming that one power because it has a useful effect may hurt you in the long run.
As I said before, if the problem is with the power, show me the power that is the problem and fix the power. By changing the augmentation rules to make it more expensive, you are essentially trying to fix the one broken power by making the power and every other non-broken power weaker. The proper solution is to fix the power, especially of augmentation works and is balanced for every single power. Overhauling the augmentation system so that it affects every power including the balanced ones is overkill.
This is true. Any power that proves to be universally superior for every situation is probably badly written.
Good idea, but the execution is cluttered. I think it's too complicated to be an ideal solution, because you'd have to keep a count of every time you use each augment for every power until you run out of Power Points, every single encounter! That's more bookkeeping than 4E likes.
My suggestion: How about if you augment the same attack power (no matter which augment of that power you use) for two or more standard actions in a row, the PP cost of each augment beyond first is double the listed cost. For example, if Billy augments his Super Psion Attack with 6 power points in round 1, during the next round the PP cost of augmenting Super Psion Attack (whether for either 2 points or 6 points) is double the listed cost. Let's say he chose to use the 2 PP augment of Super Psion Attack; now, because he used an augmented version of the same power for his previous attack, the cost of augmenting Super Psion Attack for 2 PP is doubled to 4 PP. However, if Billy decides to augment Ultra Psion Attack in round 2, the cost of augmenting that power is normal, as is the cost of augmenting Super Psion Attack again in round 3.
The wording would need to be clarified, mind you. However, I think the effect is similar (but not exactly the same) as with your suggestion, but it will require less bookkeeping.
I like this solution, far more elegant than mine. Thanks!
If you are concerned about an overpowered at-will with augments, it is not the power point system that is the problem. It is the power. If the power is the problem, the solution is to fix the power, not fix the power point system. I will use the Rain of Blows power as an example.
The Rain of Blows power (before the errata) is overpowered. If you could use that power twice, it is considered way overpowered. There is a way to use it more than once. Humans who take the Adroit Explorer paragon path can choose to gain Rain of Blows twice. The problem is not with the Adroit Explorer PP feature that allows you to take Rain of Blows twice. Fixing the Adroit Explorer PP is not the solution. The solution is to fix the Rain of Blows power. They did this and now there is no problem.
Right on all accounts. However, WoTC hasn't done a great job of quickly errata-ing problems in the past. My point was that there is a built in mechanism for stopping even an overpowered encounter power from becoming game breaking (you can only get it twice at most, and adroit explorer is often not the best paragon path for most characters, and is only even open to humans, who tend not to be the optimized race for any class anyway--so for most characters, you can only get any encounter power once, unless you give up a lot and even then only twice). The new system gets rid of this built in mechanism. If there are no overpowered encounter abilities this isn't a problem, but what are the chances that there will be not a single overpowered encounter power in any class that uses augmenting?
If you want a potentially problematic example that already exists in the half a class we have right now, look at the Augment 2 ability on Mindthrust (a level 1 at-will). It does 2d10 + Int mod damage and reduces all of the target's defenses by your cha modifier. Now take a high level character with, say, a +7 cha bonus (quite obtainable). By repeatedly casting the same augment 2 over and over this character could keep a solo at a point where most of his friends could hit it on at least a 3 or 4. And this assumes neither an optimized party nor an optimized psion; it could be much worse.
Is this game breaking? Probably not. Is this an incredibly effective way to take down a solo, a way that requires no real optimizing from the party and that could make an otherwise difficult battle trivial? Yup.
What's more, the psion in this situation is encouraged to just repeatedly spam this level 1 ability (none of the augment 6 abilities are really worth three casts of this augment 2 ability), which seems pretty boring to me. Other people may have different opinions about what constitutes enjoyable gameplay, though, so this is a subjective point.
Two things to note. The lower augment of each augmentable power doesn't provide a bonus to damage (for the most part, there may have been one I missed). The higher augment does. While I know controller's aren't exactly machines of destruction, constantly spamming that one power because it has a useful effect may hurt you in the long run.
Note that the augment 2 powers of heroic tier at-wills all do bonus damage. At epic levels, it's only enough bonus damage to bring them in line with the base damage of other class's at-wills, though, so you're right that you couldn't build a high damage character this way (at least, not with what we've seen so far. If they make a striker with this mechanism it'll be interesting to see what they do with the damage disparity issue). Still, if your controller is doing crazy debuffs every round then you don't really need him to be doing much damage, your party should have strikers for that.
If you break the psion down, they only have three useful shticks:
1.) Defense ablation - Mind thrust
2.) To-hit ablation - dishearten, mind wipe
3.) enemy attack hijacks - betrayal, sudden control. (This line is mostly damage oriented anyway, and not that much damage at that.)
The psychic vulnerability line ala mind break and daggers of pain is pretty much garbage that nobody who has system mastery will take. Sudden opportunity is pretty nice and many will take it.
Psions don't really get much in the way of save penalties, and their big bad domination dailies will only last a round or two on average, making said powers rather weaksauce.
So really, telepaths are really most useful for debuffing defenses with mind thrust, or to-hits using mind wipe.
All that being said, there's very little that a psion has that can compare with stacked penalties to saves that wizards can get. I'm not sure that spamming mind thrust is as strong as spamming sleep, face of death, ev's dreadful mist, ev's black tenties, destructive salutation, prismatic spray and legion's hold- one per encounter when you have a cunning weapon dagger, phrenic crown and spell focus leaving foes with a 10% round on round chance to break the effect...not even using orb of imposition.
As it stands, in my opinion, telepaths got nothing on control wizards.
The only possible problem of this nature I see is with Mind Thrust, and that doesn't really call the entire system into question, only Mind Thrust. Mind thrust is definitely useful and I think that most psions will keep the power through their careers.
If you break the psion down, they only have three useful shticks:
1.) Defense ablation - Mind thrust
2.) To-hit ablation - dishearten, mind wipe
3.) enemy attack hijacks - betrayal, sudden control. (This line is mostly damage oriented anyway, and not that much damage at that.)
The psychic vulnerability line ala mind break and daggers of pain is pretty much garbage that nobody who has system mastery will take. Sudden opportunity is pretty nice and many will take it.
Psions don't really get much in the way of save penalties, and their big bad domination dailies will only last a round or two on average, making said powers rather weaksauce.
So really, telepaths are really most useful for debuffing defenses with mind thrust, or to-hits using mind wipe.
All that being said, there's very little that a psion has that can compare with stacked penalties to saves that wizards can get. I'm not sure that spamming mind thrust is as strong as spamming sleep, face of death, ev's dreadful mist, ev's black tenties, destructive salutation, prismatic spray and legion's hold- one per encounter when you have a cunning weapon dagger, phrenic crown and spell focus leaving foes with a 10% round on round chance to break the effect...not even using orb of imposition.
As it stands, in my opinion, telepaths got nothing on control wizards.
I agree with you as things stand right now; wizards with OoI are pretty ridiculous, and wizard dailies are quite powerful. But in looking at the augment system, we've only got half of one class. With at least a few augmented character classes coming in PHB3 I expect more problems to crop up.
That being said, it's not like the old system was problem free, I just think the new one lends itself a bit more easily to getting out of hand, due to the potential to cast one fully augmented heroic at-will up to 8 times per encounter. Still, hopefully the designers have learned a lot about balance over the course of 4E and will be very very careful about balancing augments, in which case none of my concerns will ever really materialize.
Here's hoping!
Stephen: . . . during development I observed that these classes might end up being the easiest to play, once you figure out which power to use in an encounter. There's something pretty straightforward, even reassuring about choosing one power and relying on it repeatedly to get the job done.
It's a big challenge for power design and development, since we don't want to make an easy "go-to" button that is mashed repeatedly in every encounter in preference to the rest of your powers, but through playtesting we think we've found a good balance point.
It sounds like at least they took single ability spam into consideration, though I'm not really convinced that most characters won't just spam one ability repeatedly. On the other hand, it sounds like they partly wanted to cater to this play style, so even if I find the psion boring this may be intentional design and may appeal to other players.
Mike: . . . On top of that, the system scales nicely. As you gain more points, your powers become more expensive. You can micromanage if you want, but most players will burn off their powers in big chunks.
I'm not convinced that "most players will burn off their powers in big chunks," as I maintain that one casting of a 6 point augment is not generally worth three castings of a 2 point augment. In short battles, maybe augmenting big is worthwhile. In longer ones, probably not.
Anyway, glad to see Stephen and Mike address this point, even if I'm not fully convinced by their analysis, and even if I still find the psion kind of unappealing as a class.
The psionic system is new and we've only seen half the class. I honestly don't think spamming lower leveled powers 8 times will ever equate from being granted an extra point somehow and using your lvl 27 three times over (though granted a swordmage with the right ED can use their lvl 27 at will but thats beside the point). Either way I don't see it as being overpowered in any way but I don't have all the powers in front of me (because WotC wouldn't put them in a
PDF file) so I don't know what would spam exceptionally well. I don't see anything beating OoI though.It sounds like at least they took single ability spam into consideration, though I'm not really convinced that most characters won't just spam one ability repeatedly. On the other hand, it sounds like they partly wanted to cater to this play style, so even if I find the psion boring this may be intentional design and may appeal to other players.
This is basically what I was going to say: some people want one-button characters.
I'm not convinced that "most players will burn off their powers in big chunks," as I maintain that one casting of a 6 point augment is not generally worth three castings of a 2 point augment. In short battles, maybe augmenting big is worthwhile. In longer ones, probably not.
I think a lot of players will augment big in the hopes of making a battle short, at least towards the beginning, then they'll conserve as the fight gets long. Conservative players will go in the other direction, not using any big augmentations until either the perfect moment or will burn them off in chunks to clean up a fight that's already won.