So now that Kalashtars are confirmed as a player race appearing in the Eberron Player's Guide, who feels validated? I sure as hell do!
Hmmph! "Kalashtar = Deva" indeed! Good riddance to a foolish idea.
Hmmph! "Kalashtar = Deva" indeed! Good riddance to a foolish idea.
That is a foolish idea indeed. Whoever suggested such a thing?
That is a foolish idea indeed. Whoever suggested such a thing?
Not me! :D
This telepathic power may be the hook that they need.
See this thread starting with post 9
Or this one with post 35
There have been others, its been a persistant rumor, though it never had a lot of credibility.
That is a foolish idea indeed. Whoever suggested such a thing?
*shrugs* I might have been the one who started it. I don't think I was, but I at least tried to keep it floating around.....to annoy doctorhook.:P
Seriously, Devas and Kalashtars are nothing alike. They're about as similar as Dwarves and Halflings. A few similarities (they're short) really isn't enough when there's so much that so drastically different.
Which was before even the Deva were released.
I am hoping they have better artwork for them - some of their headgear looked so silly in some pics.
I am thinking it might be cool if a "soulknife" is done as a multiclass feat so any psi can take it.
I am thinking it might be cool if a "soulknife" is done as a multiclass feat so any psi can take it.
Same, and with the mindblade (prefer that name over soulknife :P) can be whatever melee weapon your PC is proficient with.
As for Kalashtar, while I don't run I take tons of crunch/ideas from Eberron so another race. Especially Psionic-oriented one = awesome.
Same, and with the mindblade (prefer that name over soulknife :P) can be whatever melee weapon your PC is proficient with.
As for Kalashtar, while I don't run I take tons of crunch/ideas from Eberron so another race. Especially Psionic-oriented one = awesome.
yeah "mindblade" sounds better...."soul" sounds too Incarnum...
I am hoping they get a feat to extend their natural telepathy past 5 squares. It will be nice not having to use a Mindlink powers every time you want to talk telepathically. Now telepaths will finally "feel" like natural telepaths instead of ...."oops sorry as a telepath I can only talk to you telepathically a certain many times a day".....
I wouldn't mind a feat/racial power that gives a free action "telepathic yell", since it be so useful. A surprise attack, you notice something important, etc. You can in silence warn your whole party.
I was always pretty sure that there would in fact be Kalashtar.
I wouldn't mind a feat/racial power that gives a free action "telepathic yell", since it be so useful. A surprise attack, you notice something important, etc. You can in silence warn your whole party.
Speaking is a free action. There's no reason to need a feat for what you suggest.
I miss not having my old 3.5 kalashtar character.
I really hope they premiere another psionic class playtest next month like the empath or telepath for us to use with the Kalashtar.
Speaking is a free action. There's no reason to need a feat for what you suggest.
True you could just rapidly talk to each person at a time.
True you could just rapidly talk to each person at a time.
Would telepathy 5 then be heard by all willing creatures within 5 squares or do you have to talk to each person individually?
That was a stupid rumor. Why did that even have any credibility at all to begin with?
Seriously, Devas and Kalashtars are nothing alike. They're about as similar as Dwarves and Halflings. A few similarities (they're short) really isn't enough when there's so much that so drastically different.
Well the idea is floating around that in Dark Sun (assuming it gets published) Half-Giants will in fact be goliaths. I'd say that idea could have as much credit as the kalashtar = deva one, except I think there's a good chance goliaths will in fact take the place of half-giants.
Speaking is a free action. There's no reason to need a feat for what you suggest.
The telepathy (from my understanding of what Keith Baker has said) is much closer to whispering in someone's ear rather then shouting. So a feat that improved the telepathy from whispering to shouting to select people, would definitely be a big power increase.
True you could just rapidly talk to each person at a time.
As a DM i wouldn't allow that. I'd allow you to telepathically talk with one person as a free action per turn. Considering some of the restrictions I've had by DMs limiting my free actions, I don't think that would be unreasonable.
Would telepathy 5 then be heard by all willing creatures within 5 squares or do you have to talk to each person individually?
You can only talk to a person once at a time, so be *tells one person, then tells another, and repeat*. Thus my initial idea of the "yell" since it would be telling everyone telepathically.
But since talking is a free action, you could rapidly speak to each one and be mechanically the equivalent of my yell idea.
HA! HAHAHA! TOLD YOU! (To everyone that even mentioned Deva = Kalashtar)
The telepathy (from my understanding of what Keith Baker has said) is much closer to whispering in someone's ear rather then shouting. So a feat that improved the telepathy from whispering to shouting to select people, would definitely be a big power increase.
I don't know what Keith Baker has said, but he is not the be all end all of how D&D is to be played. In reality, there's absolutely nothing in the texts to suggest that telepathy can even be lour or quiet. If you want to make up your flavor for how telepathy works, that's your deal. :P
As a DM i wouldn't allow that. I'd allow you to telepathically talk with one person as a free action per turn. Considering some of the restrictions I've had by DMs limiting my free actions, I don't think that would be unreasonable.
I think that would be completely unreasonable. Again, we don't know how telepathy works for PCs, but from the description in the MM, there's no evidence at all that you can only communicate telepathically with one target at a time. I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to send a single telepathic message to multiple targets in range at the same time. Heck, that's not even any more than a single free action.
Of course, there's also nothing at all to suggest that it's possible to send a telepathic message to only a single person in range. For all we know, the way telepathy works is that a message is simply projected out to all minds in range whether you want to or not and the feat might in fact be to allow you to send it to only a single person. :P
EDIT:
You can only talk to a person once at a time
Where did you get this from? I see this nowhere.
- If your target is more than 25 feet away, it's useless.
- It lets you communicate with a living creature. If you want to read a book or a street sign, you're out of luck.
- It only works on a single creature at a time. If you're trying to address a crowd, it's useless. And if you run into five hostile creatures, the ability to speak to one of them when he's within 5 squares has lots of problems. By the time he's that close, it may be too late for diplomacy. His companions may not realize you are communicating... or may believe you are manipulating their companion's mind.
- It only works if the target wants to communicate with you. If you know Deep Speech, then you can eavesdrop on the dolgrims and understand what they are saying. You can't eavesdrop with telepathy. You run into three dolgrims. You address one with your telepathy. He ignores you and says something in Deep Speech to his companions. Was it "He's trying to talk with me, should I listen" or "He's trying to talk to me - I call dibs on his brain after we lead him into the ambush"? If you know the language, you know - otherwise, you're in the dark.
- Some creatures are just going to be freaked out by it. If you speak their language, you're showing that you've made some effort to learn about their culture. If you use telepathy, you are spooky invading-my-thoughts man. How do we know you aren't trying to manipulate our thoughts?
Keith mentions it in the thread posted in the OP. Here is what he said:
Well now all that is very interesting to know indeed, but I do still have one critically important question:
Is what he's saying actually in the book to explain how telepathy works? Or is he just saying how he thinks telepathy should work but it doesn't matter because there's nothing in the book at all so we can all basically make up for ourselves whatever we want?
*shrugs* I might have been the one who started it. I don't think I was, but I at least tried to keep it floating around.....to annoy doctorhook.:P
And ye did a hell of a job, boy-o. :P
lol Yeah, that was one debate that ALWAYS stuck in my proverbial craw. I'm especially glad to be on the winning side of this one.
Well now all that is very interesting to know indeed, but I do still have one critically important question:
Is what he's saying actually in the book to explain how telepathy works? Or is he just saying how he thinks telepathy should work but it doesn't matter because there's nothing in the book at all so we can all basically make up for ourselves whatever we want?
KB is better at emphasizing the distinction between opinion, canon, and mechanics than most people on the forums. From what I gathered of that thread, that's pretty much the closest we can get to hard rules on telepathy.
ARE those the rules? No idea, he's not allowed to tell us yet anyway because it would be illegal. He also didn't directly work on the EPG, but it's a pretty fair bet he knows enough of what has been in it.
If those aspects of telepathy were merely his opinion, he'd have stated so...because that's how he is.
Reading all that back...I sound like a jerk, which is unintentional. Apologies.
I think that would be completely unreasonable. Again, we don't know how telepathy works for PCs, but from the description in the MM, there's no evidence at all that you can only communicate telepathically with one target at a time.
I'm inclined to believe the creator of Eberron wasn't talking out of his arse when he describing how a feature for the Kalashtar works in 4th ed. But hey, it could be he was. Guess we'll know in a month's time. ;)
I'm especially glad to be on the winning side of this one.
As am I! Hurray for never taking a side beyond "it is possible"!:P
And ye did a hell of a job, boy-o. :P
lol Yeah, that was one debate that ALWAYS stuck in my proverbial craw. I'm especially glad to be on the winning side of this one.
Man, seriously. I hated this debate. "Oh hey, they have a sorta mental-ish power. They must be Kalashtar!" Pfff.
As am I! Hurray for never taking a side beyond "it is possible"!:P
Wait a second here, R! I wouldn't say that you picked the winning side. IIRC, your position was that it's possible that Kalashtar could be reflavoured Devas, or that the Kalashtar race might be represented as a feat tree, or that it's also possible that Kalashtar will be a distinct player race; to Eberron fans, however, anything but the outcome bolded above was not possible. In your indecision, you sometimes (but not all the time) argued against a Kalashtar player race, and that fact places you firmly outside the camp of those of us arguing in favour of Kalashtars, the camp who won the day. Arguing against us is the opposite of arguing for us.
IMO, staying neutral means no victory-soup for you, R. :P
Man, seriously. I hated this debate. "Oh hey, they have a sorta mental-ish power. They must be Kalashtar!" Pfff.
Don't forget, "They're just humans who reincarnate!"
Except that they aren't, and they don't.
I especially loved all the
"In Eberron, Deva's are just called Kalashtar. They still look like Devas, ignoring all the lore and art attributing perfect human physiques to Kalashtar."
I was annoyed as well be more then a few mentions I have seen of people saying that Elan could be just refluffed Deva, *eye twitch*
NO! BAD!
That makes zero sense.
What's going on here? Why is everyone trying to shoehorn Devas in as any race? Aren't Deva unique enough? Or is everyone greedy and just wanting their Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes?
Elans have complete amnesia. They don't remember any of their human lifetime beyond VAGUE recollections. And even then, it's vague memories of one lifetime. The only thing Elan and Deva have in common is "immortality" except its in completely different forms. Elans well and truely live forever baring accident or violence. Devas end up dying in any one incarnation before too long, before being reborn.
It's like anyone goes "There might be some non-human aspect of their memory, regardless of how little that contributes to the lore of the race, and they might have some connection to immortals of any given type or might be functional immortal themselves. MUST BE DEVAS!"
Which obviously is silly, especially then when you combine it with the fluff and the crunch. It would greatly annoy me if WoTC thought this way too, since I better damn well have my Elan in PHB3! Though since they didn't think this way for Kalashtar that is one thing to be hopeful for (also hopefully means they like their Psionic-oriented races).
It seems to me that if one were to "re-skin" the Deva, and call it another thing (besides aasimar), then it would be Cetra, from Final Fantasy VII. Their racial power would instead be called "Voices of the Lifestream"... and that would be that!
Or "They have racial memory!" Except they don't.
How is it not functionally racial memory? Deva = kalashtar made perfect sense to me, but at least we're getting more playable races.
How is it not functionally racial memory?
How is it at all functionally racial memory?
How is it at all functionally racial memory?
Check out Races of Eberron. Kalashtar have racial memory of things that happened to their ancestors and/or of their life as a quori in Dal Quor. It is actually very, very similar to the Deva fluff about how they remember their past life before they were incarnated into flesh. There is also mention in both of the fluffs about how both races have a fetish for strange headdresses and meditation, how they both have forms that are close to human perfection, etc. There is lots of overlap between RoE and the Ecology of the Deva.
Check out Races of Eberron. Kalashtar have racial memory of things that happened to their ancestors and/or of their life as a quori in Dal Quor. It is actually very, very similar to the Deva fluff about how they remember their past life before they were incarnated into flesh. There is also mention in both of the fluffs about how both races have a fetish for strange headdresses and meditation, how they both have forms that are close to human perfection, etc. There is lots of overlap between RoE and the Ecology of the Deva.
Agreed, actually.
Check out Races of Eberron.
Well there's your problem! :P
The two races are both privy to knowledge and insight they have not obtained themselves in their current bodies, but they hardly do it the same way, and even that's only a single similarity...
I question if you've read the sources i'm talking about if you are still claiming its the not the same. "We were once powerful outsiders from another plane and are now bound to perfect humanoid forms though we still have flashbacks to our previous existence" is exactly the same concept for both races. In the absence of any concrete info on the kalashtar, it wasn't a huge stretch for people on the boards to see the deva as a rebooted kalashtar. Especially when we get a lot of little details that seem to overlap lap like both race's introspective meditative natures and the totally random gravitation towards unusual headgear(!).
...sort of like the similarity between Halflings and Gnomes being short, tricky people.
Well, there really is no need for both halfings and gnomes to co-exist anyway, so this isn't exactly the greatest example. If the devs told us that halfings and gnomes were being rolled into a single race back during the previews of 4e, would you really have been the shocked?
We get an answer to the question of; Are Deva Kalashtar. No more agreements. . . wait now we are arguing on how people could see the similarities and how it could have worked. Come on people let it go, the war is over, we have a victor. Kalashtar are their own unique race, next argument please.
PS to everyone else: Despite its title, 3.5E's "Races of Eberron" wasn't really an Eberron book.
Hope this doesn't mean they forget about changeling (doppelganger).
There are three races being detailed in the EPG, one was confirmed from the get-go (Warforged), and now Kalashtar are also confirmed. In one of those hints and previews article they mentioned that the EPG would be taking a race and showing how they can translate it from MM to PC while altering it and making it PC appropriate in fluff and crunch. They did not say how they were going to do this, but rather that it would be a new interpretation on a MM race - basically screaming Doppelganger -> Changeling. How this will take effect, we don't know yet. But that article almost certainly protects that desire to keep that race in.
sort of like the similarity between Halflings and Gnomes being short, tricky people.
Funny that. I've removed halflings entirely because they're redundant with gnomes.
That was a stupid rumor. Why did that even have any credibility at all to begin with?
Because you all have this insatiable need to speculate about what's coming next & pat yourselves on the back that you've figured it out.
The problem is that none of you actually know jack. So you'll just latch onto something (no matter how stupid sounding) & run with it....
I've been wanting a Wis/Cha race for some time now. Deals with the Dream? Sweet. Dreamworld is something that's intricately a part of my campaign setting, though it's not Eberron. The inclusion of the Dream in MotP was certainly a cry out so that the Kalashtar would have something to draw on outside of Eberron and still retain their fluff. It's GRRREAT!!!
So Kalashtars are really good at being Prescient Bards, Devoted Clerics, and any type of Paladin? This is awesome.
I've been wanting a Wis/Cha race for some time now. Deals with the Dream? Sweet. Dreamworld is something that's intricately a part of my campaign setting, though it's not Eberron. The inclusion of the Dream in MotP was certainly a cry out so that the Kalashtar would have something to draw on outside of Eberron and still retain their fluff. It's GRRREAT!!!
Well, mine is still speculation about attributes, but think it for a second, the only other viable options (Int & Wis or Int & Cha) are already represented. Plus, one can all but be sure that the psionic leader will make strong use of Charisma, and Kalashtar are surely supposed to be the optimal Empaths (actually I'm also betting that a Cha + Wis or Wis + Cha build will be there for Empaths). So that would leave the only other viable option to Int & Cha, which is both tieflings's and gnome's thing. Everything points out to Wis & Cha. Which happens to be my favorite combination, personally speaking.
Well, mine is still speculation about attributes, but think it for a second, the only other viable options (Int & Wis or Int & Cha) are already represented. Plus, one can all but be sure that the psionic leader will make strong use of Charisma, and Kalashtar are surely supposed to be the optimal Empaths (actually I'm also betting that a Cha + Wis or Wis + Cha build will be there for Empaths). So that would leave the only other viable option to Int & Cha, which is both tieflings's and gnome's thing. Everything points out to Wis & Cha. Which happens to be my favorite combination, personally speaking.
Plus Changlings are going to be in the same book and they will most likely have Cha/Int.
Has +Wis, +Cha been confirmed yet for Kalashtar?
No, read the last 4 posts.
No, read the last 4 posts.
I did. I'm asking because some folks seem to be speaking as though it is confirmed.
Still, +Wis +Cha is what I'd like it to be, and what I think it will be.
I am actually in a similar position for Elan (in am hoping in PHB3). In that I could see both Intelligence or Wisdom working alongside Consititution. Though personally would prefer Intelligence but I think this one will rely even more so on what is dominant with Psionics.
I did. I'm asking because some folks seem to be speaking as though it is confirmed.
You're right, that's why I felt the need to clarify I was speculating, since I was the one to bring the thing forth... :D Risked a diplomatic accident hehe :D
I think the +2 Int or +2 Wis will come down to what is dominant for Psionics. Though the Monk having Wisdom as a dominant Ability does lead more credence on that end for Wisdom (I wouldn't use that as a broad idea though for Wisdom with all Psionics).
I am actually in a similar position for Elan (in am hoping in PHB3). In that I could see both Intelligence or Wisdom working alongside Consititution. Though personally would prefer Intelligence but I think this one will rely even more so on what is dominant with Psionics.
I agree Int and Wis will play a dominant role all in all, but speaking of Kalashtar, they also have a charismatic thing of their own.
Speaking of psionic classes I think in the end the dominance of Int and Wis will only be slight. Because Monk already fills slots with Dex and Str, the Empath will surely bring in Cha (maybe coupled with Int and Wis), the "Psion" (controller) will most likely be Int, Wis, Con or Int, Wis, Str (I'm not speculating on which would be primary, too difficult), and the defender will surely have some physical attributes throwed in, ending up something like Str, Con, Int, again in no particular order. Maybe (but itì's asking too much I guess), we'll finally see a Con primary defender, since the psionic use of Con is something that could go beyond passive resistance...
P.S. I finally see a viable return of the old concept of making psionics out of any attribute, resulting in different disciplines... The Monk would be the new master of Psychoportation, with a little of Clairsentience; the Empath would be the master of Telepathy, with healing throwed in, the controller would use Metacreativity and Psychokinesis and the defender would be left with Psychometabolism...
Also given their historical connection to monks within the setting (the monks of Adar opened their minds to the renegade Quori and bonded thus creating the kalashtar) Wisdom would probably be the safe bet.
Based on Keith's comment that kalashtar make good thaneborn barbarians, I think we can safely confirm that they are +2 Wis, +2 Cha.
Who knows. I for one am hoping in a return of the often criticized two primaries / one secondary class design. It would make sense for the Psion-equivalent (use of different disciplines) and more or less for each other class as well. But they know people don't like it from an optimization point of view, so I probably should stop dreaming.
Returning to the Kalashtar, I hope the power itself will be tied to dreams or their host, and that feats will expand it and give it more uses/forms...
EDIT:
Based on the pre-gen kalashtar invoker in the Free RPG day adventure, +2 Wisdom is definite. The stats also mean that they must also have either +2 Int or +2 Cha.
Based on Keith's comment that kalashtar make good thaneborn barbarians, I think we can safely confirm that they are +2 Wis, +2 Cha.
Thanks for the info, this pretty much confirms the bonuses... And my clairsentience powers :D
Could you also share details on the racial power?
You're right, that's why I felt the need to clarify I was speculating, since I was the one to bring the thing forth... :D Risked a diplomatic accident hehe :D
Ah, ok. Anyway, we're on the same page, I think.
by the look of things, only the leader could realistically get Wisdom as primary
Why do you say this? It's easy enough to fluff a wis primary, especially for Psionic classes; The Controller has to concentrate to use his powers. The Swordsman is precognitive.
Now that Kalashtar are an independant race, what do we think is going to become of the Deva?
Isn't wisdom the second most used attack stat, other than Strength?
Yeah, that's why if I have to bet I say that Wisdom will figure only as an ever-present secondary in Psionic classes and the primaries will be:
Defender: Con
Striker: Dex obviously
Leader: Cha
Controller: Int
Now that Kalashtar are an independant race, what do we think is going to become of the Deva?
They'll probably get folded into Kalashtar.
You're aware that Kalashtar were always an independent race, right? (No, I get it; I remember your posts about Kalashtar being the same as Devas.) Devas will be the same thing they always would have been: Angel-folk. I don't understand why this isn't obvious.
One of the main reasons that we opposed Devas being refluffed as Kalashtar was that both can fill entirely separate niches in Eberron. The Kalashtar niche was explored fairly well in 3.5E, but the Angel-people angle wasn't, due mostly to the fact that Aasimar weren't truly suitable for that role the way Devas are now. Now that we have Devas, there's a few very obvious places to fit them into Eberron:
- As a race of descended Angels, who came from Syrania to Eberron (probably through the manifest zone in Sharn). Given the moral ambiguity of Eberron characters, Devas could very well be tied to Radiant Cult/Radiant Idol phenomenon, where an angelic being appears and encourages people to worship it as a new god. Why is this a good way to incorporate Devas into Eberron? Because Sharn is a major location in Eberron; whole campaigns can be played without the characters ever leaving the city. Anything that develops Sharn or from Sharn is a valuable contribution to the setting.
- As a race of earth-bound immortals or reformed demons, who may have been Rakshasas or Angels in the past, and risk becoming Rakshasas again if they engage in evil or depravity. Why is this a good way to incorporate Devas into Eberron? Because the connection between Devas and Rakshasa is core, and Rakshasas are central villains in Eberron.
- Both of the above, plus recouping the tiny role that Aasimars formerly played in Eberron. Why? Because none of these options are mutually exclusive.
If you answer "yes" to the above question, it shall be confirmed that you are either entirely ignorant of Eberron, or completely apathetic towards the setting. There's no way a fan of Eberron would continue to suggest this ridiculousness.
They'll probably get folded into Kalashtar.
You're aware that Kalashtar were always an independent race, right? (No, I get it; I remember your posts about Kalashtar being the same as Devas.) Devas will be the same thing they always would have been: Angel-folk. I don't understand why this isn't obvious.
One of the main reasons that we opposed Devas being refluffed as Kalashtar was that both can fill entirely separate niches in Eberron. The Kalashtar niche was explored fairly well in 3.5E, but the Angel-people angle wasn't, due mostly to the fact that Aasimar weren't truly suitable for that role the way Devas are now. Now that we have Devas, there's a few very obvious places to fit them into Eberron:Not only are none of those options mutually exclusive, but none of them overlap even the slightest with the role that Kalashtar play in the setting. Do you honestly still think Devas and Kalashtar should be combined into a single race?
- As a race of descended Angels, who came from Syrania to Eberron (probably through the manifest zone in Sharn). Given the moral ambiguity of Eberron characters, Devas could very well be tied to Radiant Cult/Radiant Idol phenomenon, where an angelic being appears and encourages people to worship it as a new god. Why is this a good way to incorporate Devas into Eberron? Because Sharn is a major location in Eberron; whole campaigns can be played without the characters ever leaving the city. Anything that develops Sharn or from Sharn is a valuable contribution to the setting.
- As a race of earth-bound immortals or reformed demons, who may have been Rakshasas or Angels in the past, and risk becoming Rakshasas again if they engage in evil or depravity. Why is this a good way to incorporate Devas into Eberron? Because the connection between Devas and Rakshasa is core, and Rakshasas are central villains in Eberron.
- Both of the above, plus recouping the tiny role that Aasimars formerly played in Eberron. Why? Because none of these options are mutually exclusive.
If you answer "yes" to the above question, it shall be confirmed that you are either entirely ignorant of Eberron, or completely apathetic towards the setting. There's no way a fan of Eberron would continue to suggest this ridiculousness.
I am not a "fan" of anything...but I agree with you that no one with any real understanding of, or interest in, the setting would ever suggest or accept such a silly notion.
Hell, thier backstories are almost identical! Just swap out "Angels" and "Primal Spirits" with "Quori" and "Sarlonan Monks".
Yeees, how dare a Fan such as I suggest that the best way to incorporate the "Mystical race of humanoids who possess the knowledge and souls of immortal creatures" was to merge them with the "Mystical race of humanoids who possess the knowledge and souls of immortal creatures".
Hell, thier backstories are almost identical! Just swap out "Angels" and "Primal Spirits" with "Quori" and "Sarlonan Monks".
You've never actually read any Eberron books, have you? You keep suggesting that Kalashtar are immortal, when the 3.5E Eberron Campaign Setting says no such thing, AFAICT. The fact that (here I am trying to explain this to you, once again) Devas and Kalashtar fill entirely different roles in the setting seems completely lost on you.
Are you really an Eberron fan? Do you really think that there's no better way to incorporate Devas into Eberron than to shoe-horn them into the niche Kalashtar fill? Or is it that you don't see why the setting needs Kalashtar now that it has Devas? I've read some of your posts on other topics, and you seem like a reasonable person; why are you having so much trouble understanding this one? (Or are you just being stubborn?) I honestly don't understand why you can't look past the (inaccurate) superficial details to see how fundamentally different these two races are. Most everyone else seems to get it, or is at least willing to admit that they don't know enough about one or the other to make this assessment fairly.
You've never actually read any Eberron books, have you? You keep suggesting that Kalashtar are immortal, when the 3.5E Eberron Campaign Setting says no such thing, AFAICT. The fact that (here I am trying to explain this to you, once again) Devas and Kalashtar fill entirely different roles in the setting seems completely lost on you.
(Note: he was saying immortal referring to the immortal type, meaning every creature from an astral dominion I guess. Even then, I think the Quori should be Aberrant, not Immortal, but I could be wrong, it depends on the way they classified Dal-Quor. I'm fairly sure it's aberrant however)
You've never actually read any Eberron books, have you? You keep suggesting that Kalashtar are immortal, when the 3.5E Eberron Campaign Setting says no such thing, AFAICT.
He was referring to the Quori as being immortal, not the Kalashtar as being immortal. I don't know if they actually are, but that is what he meant. *shrugs*
Kalashtar are a telepathic race...Deva are not, period. Unless the Deva had been remech'd to be racially telepathic at minimum, they simply would never have been Kalashtar, end of discussion right there...but also...
Kalashtar do not "reincarnate" in any fashion at all.
Kalashtar do have "racial memory" of sorts, fluff-wise anyway, in that one's decendants have the memories of their direct ancestors (in generally useless and meaninglessly indecipherable and frightening flashes mixed with almost incomprehensible nightmares of dal quor).
Kalashtar don't have individual quori spirits. They each have an equal portion of one of 65 quori spirits (depending on ancestral line and gender). One line was wiped out entirely.
Kalashtar make babies, and don't just "pop" into existence like Deva at all, and may even breed with other races as their human ancestors did.
Astral Majesty and Resistance...utterly unrelated to ANYTHING about the Kalashtar in even the tiniest bit of fluff or crunch. Can't even reasonably shoe-horn these racial abilities into Kalashtar. They're so totally unrelated to the Kalashtar in every way that it's a laughable proposition at best.
I'd still put them with immortal or natural origin over aberrant, just because Quori themselves will be of the immortal origin. Daelkyr may even be immortal instead of aberrant...just tied inextricably with the Far Realm through Xoriat, making them the equal of any aberration.
Memory of a thousand lifetimes...no. Gaining any kind of use out of the memories of one's ancestors or quori spirit was a long and arduous journey of connecting on ever-deepening levels to that spirit. This is because the more generations are born, the farther removed from the original spirit they are. And the more kalashtar are born to a line, the more thinly the spirit is spread and the weaker the connection.
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Refluffing alone is far from enough to turn the Deva into anything even remotely approaching an appropriate substitute for Kalashtar. They would absolutely require at least three major mechanical changes for certain. They should really dump either INT or WIS and get a bonus to CHA, as well as dumping both skills for diplomacy and bluff. To say nothing of speaking quor in addition to common.
Frankly...reading over the fluff in the 3.5 ECS and the 4e PH2, I see little to nothing that actually indicates they could ever be rolled into the same race at all.
Deva, PH2, pg. 9
Playing a Deva
Devas are refined and polite. They follow the highest moral standards, but they are not afraid of violence. They believe that the pursuit of good is an eternal war with the forces of evil, embodied in rakshasas, demons, devils, and the evil gods and their servant angels. Devas wage that war in their hearts as well, constantly vigilant lest evil take root and corrupt their souls, transforming them into the creatures they most despise.
Because they remember, at least dimly, a life in the Astral Sea spent in close company with the gods, most devas are devout worshipers of the gods of good, especially Bahamut but also Moradin and Pelor. Devas seek to achieve a personal connection with the gods rather than approach them through temples and priests. They worship at meals in their homes, setting an empty place for the absent gods, and strive through meditation and prayer to become more like the gods they serve. Deva adventurers are commonly avengers, clerics, and invokers, who savor the experience of divine power flowing through them without any intermediary.
Devas do not have cities or societies of their own, and their numbers are so small that a deva can spend entire lifetimes without ever meeting another of his or her kind. They live among other races and, at least to some extent, adopt their ways. However, all devas remember elements of the life they had before their incarnation in flesh and the beginning of their cycle of rebirth, and they share some common cultural elements of dress, religion, and habits. Devas favor flowing clothes of fine silks, polished metal armor with winglike shoulder ornaments, and headdresses or helmets that suggest crowns or halos. In other ways, they prefer to live simply, without extravagance.
Devas are refined and polite. They follow the highest moral standards, but they are not afraid of violence. They believe that the pursuit of good is an eternal war with the forces of evil, embodied in rakshasas, demons, devils, and the evil gods and their servant angels. Devas wage that war in their hearts as well, constantly vigilant lest evil take root and corrupt their souls, transforming them into the creatures they most despise.
Because they remember, at least dimly, a life in the Astral Sea spent in close company with the gods, most devas are devout worshipers of the gods of good, especially Bahamut but also Moradin and Pelor. Devas seek to achieve a personal connection with the gods rather than approach them through temples and priests. They worship at meals in their homes, setting an empty place for the absent gods, and strive through meditation and prayer to become more like the gods they serve. Deva adventurers are commonly avengers, clerics, and invokers, who savor the experience of divine power flowing through them without any intermediary.
Devas do not have cities or societies of their own, and their numbers are so small that a deva can spend entire lifetimes without ever meeting another of his or her kind. They live among other races and, at least to some extent, adopt their ways. However, all devas remember elements of the life they had before their incarnation in flesh and the beginning of their cycle of rebirth, and they share some common cultural elements of dress, religion, and habits. Devas favor flowing clothes of fine silks, polished metal armor with winglike shoulder ornaments, and headdresses or helmets that suggest crowns or halos. In other ways, they prefer to live simply, without extravagance.
(Note: he was saying immortal referring to the immortal type, meaning every creature from an astral dominion I guess. Even then, I think the Quori should be Aberrant, not Immortal, but I could be wrong, it depends on the way they classified Dal-Quor. I'm fairly sure it's aberrant however)
He was referring to the Quori as being immortal, not the Kalashtar as being immortal. I don't know if they actually are, but that is what he meant. *shrugs*
I keep rereading it, but I'm still not sure exactly what I missed. But, if you guys are certain that's what he meant, I will believe you; it doesn't really change my argument anyway.
Fundamentally...there are some important things...
*snip lengthy, intelligent arguments*
I had put here what my guess at the real problem was about having issues with kalashtar and deva being separate. But, my wording was inappropriate for the forums. And I could think of no way to reword it to something more appropriate without losing the honesty and accuracy of it.
Edit: I'm not sure why I typed all that out...it's pointless anyway. Kalashtar are their own separate race...we win, the end. Oh well.
We did win. We'll always have that. In the mean time, why do we fight this fight? Because it's the internet; we nerds come here to rage at stubborn, ignorant people.
Kalashtar make babies, and don't just "pop" into existence like Deva at all, and may even breed with other races as their human ancestors did.
Minor correction here - Deva can and do have children. Just not with each other. But they can have children with most of the humanoid races, with the child being a member of the non-Deva's race. But you're right that new Deva aren't birthed.
Minor correction here - Deva can and do have children. Just not with each other. But they can have children with most of the humanoid races, with the child being a member of the non-Deva's race. But you're right that new Deva aren't birthed.
I know it is a fantasy game, but the biologist in me wants to know how the heck this is possible. How can a Deva female have a child with a Human male, and a Human female can have a child with a Deva male, but a Deva male can't have a child with a Deva female? They clearly have working... machinery and both the male and the female are compatible with their human counterparts, but somehow the machinery breaks down with their own race? This is obsurd!
Take for example the Lion (representing Deva) and the Tiger (representing Humans). A male lion and a female tiger create a Liger, a female lion and a male tiger create a Tigron. The tiger can create more tigers through breeding, but the lion can't? This is the exact same scenario as above.
I know it is a fantasy game, but the biologist in me wants to know how the heck this is possible. How can a Deva female have a child with a Human male, and a Human female can have a child with a Deva male, but a Deva male can't have a child with a Deva female? They clearly have working... machinery and both the male and the female are compatible with their human counterparts, but somehow the machinery breaks down with their own race? This is obsurd!
Take for example the Lion (representing Deva) and the Tiger (representing Humans). A male lion and a female tiger create a Liger, a female lion and a male tiger create a Tigron. The tiger can create more tigers through breeding, but the lion can't? This is the exact same scenario as above.
Angel energy can't mate with other angel energy to make new angel energy?
Actually, it's probably due to the fact that the Primal Spirits said "No More Deva." And since the Primal Spirits were the ones that allowed the angels to become Deva in the first place, they probably have first say in reproduction matters.
I know it is a fantasy game, but the biologist in me wants to know how the heck this is possible. How can a Deva female have a child with a Human male, and a Human female can have a child with a Deva male, but a Deva male can't have a child with a Deva female? They clearly have working... machinery and both the male and the female are compatible with their human counterparts, but somehow the machinery breaks down with their own race? This is obsurd!
Take for example the Lion (representing Deva) and the Tiger (representing Humans). A male lion and a female tiger create a Liger, a female lion and a male tiger create a Tigron. The tiger can create more tigers through breeding, but the lion can't? This is the exact same scenario as above.
Actually, it would be more like Lion and the Tiger always make tigers...in the case of the Deva. They don't make half-breeds of any sort. That is one thing they share in common with Kalashtar. A male kalashtar and a female human will ALWAYS produce male kalashtar and female human children. Your analogy is still apt enough though. As to why they can't breed with each other...maybe it's something like spiritual or biological "magnetic poles"? They're north, and every other living thing is south to them. Even that doesn't work though, since then all the other races shouldn't be able to breed. Dunno...
Actually, it would be more like Lion and the Tiger always make tigers...in the case of the Deva. They don't make half-breeds of any sort. That is one thing they share in common with Kalashtar. A male kalashtar and a female human will ALWAYS produce male kalashtar and female human children. Your analogy is still apt enough though. As to why they can't breed with each other...maybe it's something like spiritual or biological "magnetic poles"? They're north, and every other living thing is south to them. Even that doesn't work though, since then all the other races shouldn't be able to breed. Dunno...
Thanks for the previous detailed comparison, it simply closes the argument.
To clarify my position, I've nothing against kalashtar as a full race. I do have something against people saying "Only idiots would think they could be otherwise".
Likewise, I'm interested in what they'll do with the deva simply because some of the PoL assumptions (Personificated dieties, raksha origin ect.) aren't valid in eberron. Pure curiousity.
Edit---
I meant that Quori are immortals, simply because the PoL Plane of Dreams is part of/accessed through the Astral Sea.
I think I'll leave my rebuttals, as there's no real point to them any more
To clarify my position, I've nothing against kalashtar as a full race. I do have something against people saying "Only idiots would think they could be otherwise".
Likewise, I'm interested in what they'll do with the deva simply because some of the PoL assumptions (Personificated dieties, raksha origin ect.) aren't valid in eberron. Pure curiousity.
Edit---
I meant that Quori are immortals, simply because the PoL Plane of Dreams is part of/accessed through the Astral Sea.
That's fair.
I'm still not sure what you mean when you say that the "Rakshasa origin isn't valid in Eberron", though.
He's what we know about the rakshasa in Eberron, they're fiends, created by the demon overlords (children of Khyber) in the first age (the Age of Demons). The Demon Ovelords, also called occationally called Rakshasa Rajahs because they ruled the rakshasa not because they are rakshasa (Tiamat is a overlord/rajah in this setting), created the rakshasa. No one ever said how.
Which begs the interesting question of which came first, the deva or the rakshasa in Eberron.
Perhaps the rakshasa came first, and when the dragons and coutal battled the overlords and the coutal ultimately sacrificed themselves to bind the overlords in Khyber with the Silver Flame some rakshasa were somehow purified became deva, continue to reincarnate, have for the past 100,000 years but they always have the possibility of slipping and becaming what they once were.
Perhaps angels from Shavarath The Battle Ground, the Plane of War where angels, archons, demons, and devils have been waging war since the dawn of creation spilled over into Eberron during the time of the Age of Demons to join with the dragons and coutal against the Overlords, maybe it was the overlords who stripped them of their 'divinity' in battle and twisted them into their own soldiers. Maybe some escaped the fate 'temporarily', even if that temporarily has been for 100,000 years.
Perhaps some rakshasa rebelled and themselves found redemtion in the Age of Demons, maybe this cycle of reincarnation is a two way street, but there was only one major incident of them 'going good' and ever since they've been slowly losing numbers, now there are litterally only several hundred left.
Maybe no one knows, not even the deva, memories from that long ago are simply too vague to dim for even them to be sure what happened. Still they know that they and the rakshasa are one in the same, and they know they might fall.
All kinds of ways they could go with it, each one locking them distinctly into Eberron's history. When I read Deva for the first time I was facinated, they seemed perfect for Eberron.
I know it is a fantasy game, but the biologist in me wants to know how the heck this is possible.
Partheogenesis and cloning. Female Deva act as a womb for the skin cells exchanged during sex, and forces them to begin dividing as if it were a fertilized egg, through radiant energies. Due to the differing condition in the Deva compared to the orginal's mother, the son develops differently, ending up looking different from his father, despite posessing the exact same genes. Male Deva instead magically stimulate a woman's ova to simply duplicate it's X chromosone and then behaving like a fertilized egg. In this case, the child will simply the same of allies that particular egg did twice, meaning she (the mother can only produce an X so the child must be a female) will look pretty different from her mother.
In short, Deva are wholly infertile, but being closely tied to the astral sea makes it possible to create new life with the appropriate "donation".
Check out Races of Eberron. Kalashtar have racial memory of things that happened to their ancestors and/or of their life as a quori in Dal Quor. It is actually very, very similar to the Deva fluff about how they remember their past life before they were incarnated into flesh. There is also mention in both of the fluffs about how both races have a fetish for strange headdresses and meditation, how they both have forms that are close to human perfection, etc. There is lots of overlap between RoE and the Ecology of the Deva.
Strangely though, I like Devas and hate Kalashtars. Weird.
Strangely though, I like Devas and hate Kalashtars. Weird.
Thats just your racial memory of hating kalashtars in your past life.