Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mist-Bound May 19, 2009 17:35:39	Now that it's been confirmed that Shadow has been pushed back to the PHB4, I thought now was as good as time as any to bring this topic up. I'm not asking what Shadow classes you expect to see brought out by Wizards of the Coast, but what classes do you see in the Shadow source? What classes can you envision that draw their power from the Shadowfell and necrotic energy in general? Myself, these are my envisionings. Before anyone asks, the whole "Necromantic/Nyctomantic Aspect" bit is because, when I look at how the Shadow source has been described, I fundamentally boil it down to two archetypes. The "Necromantic" is a character who draws upon the portion of Shadow that deals with death and undead. The "Nyctomantic" draws upon the illusion, deception and unreality component of the Shadow source. Necromantic Aspect Necromancer: Controller This class is almost a given. Fundamentally, this is a Shadow Summoner; Summoning powers, likely its daily, backed with Conjurations and "Summoning Themed" powers (i.e. "you call a scream of torment from the Shadowfell into the air around your victim, driving them insane with the constant wailing"). Summoning a Cinder Golem to burn enemies and choke adjacent foes with its cloud of ashes, conjuring a Wailing Wall that drives enemies insane with its screaming and which saps the life from any who actually move through it, rending the flesh from a foe with a Skull Swarm, absorbing the life from slain enemies to heal the Necromancer, these are the kinds of powers I can see it using. It may or may not have a "Favoured Pet" mechanism, but if it does, I could see it working equally well with either Beastmaster mechanic or the Spirit Companion mechanic (from Martial Power and Player's Handbook 2 respectively). "Death Mage": Controller or Striker This is the "thematic" Necromancer, a necromancer whose powers lie over the "aspects of death" rather than actual corpses and corpse-critters. From invoking a Rain of Pestilence, which causes disease-ridden filth to shower over an area and poison those who enter it, to enveloping a group of foes with a life-sapping cloud of darkness, to causing a victim's veins to rupture and spray their necrotically-infused lifeblood over their allies, these are the powers that a "Death Mage" could wield. If this class shows up at all, I'm honestly expecting it to be rolled into the Necromancer- at best, we have a situation like with the Druid (where it could be clearly played as two seperate classes), but more likely it'll be like the Warden, with "Death Mage" powers being Encounter and "Necromancer" powers being Daily. Hexblade: Striker or Defender This, I will admit, is basically a Necromantic Swordmage. The Hexblade infuses their weapon (likely a heavy blade or a two-handed weapon) with shadow energies and uses that to blight and afflict its victims. Sucking their lifeforce out with each strike to heal the Hexblade, blinding them, infecting them with magical diseases, slipping a shard of one of the Hexblade's former victims into the target's mind to drive them mad, these are all the sorts of powers I can see from the Hexblade. Baleknight: Defender (Melee Controller?) I will admit, the 4e Druid was a big inspiration for this class, but the other "contributor" was the various media involving "death-touched" (i.e. mortals with undead ancestry or taint) that possess superhuman capabilities. The Baleknight channels shadow energy into their body to warp and twist themselves in a variaty of inhuman ways, using these tainted abilities to overwhelm their foes. A Baleknight can unleash a Gibbering Scream to send enemies fleeing in panic, sprout Ghoul's Claws and rake a foe for toxic damage, vomit a gout of Sanguine Spittle to corrode foes with acidic blood, or Cannibalize a victim for health at their victim's cost. Nyctomantic Aspect Illusionist: Leader Another classic class, I see this veteran as being far more suited for the Leader role than any Necromantic class could possibly be. While definately having some Controller elements, the focus on non-damage (Psychic is pretty much the limit) orientates it more towards this role. Causing enemies to move in a chosen direction, or stop moving at all, allowing allies to avoid hits or damage by shielding them with illusions, blanking their own damage from their mind if they do get hurt, these and similar tricks are the Illusionist's forte. Wraithblade: Defender The Wraithblade, like the Hexblade, is a Shadow Swordmage. This one, however, orientates towards light blades in terms of weaponry and confusing & disorientating the foe in terms of power. Covering nearby allies with illusion so the enemy can't spot them, creating the image of multiple strikes at once so the foe can't defend, even creating multiple images of the Wraithblade itself, all of which can hurt a foe, these all seem viable powers to me.
#2 Haldrik May 19, 2009 17:50:01	The Illusionist class works best as a Psionic Controller, who specializes in mental effects and quasi-real Force effects. These effects could resonate the mental ideals of the Astral Sea.
#3 Mist-Bound May 19, 2009 17:54:27	True, it would work nicely as a Psionic class- as you can see from my opening post, I feel that the Shadow source resonates most strongly with Necromancy, rather than Illusion. Nevertheless, wherever Shadow has been described, it's always had a good element of illusion to back up its charnel aspects as well.
#4 Haldrik May 19, 2009 18:07:41	I see Shadow as follows. The Shadow power source gets a new 'Necromancy' skill to cover it (like Arcana covers Arcane, Religion covers Divine, and Nature covers Primal.) Shadow power source Death Necromancy skill Funeral ceremonies Ghosts Plane of Shadowfell (the 'echo' or darkside aspect of the Natural World) Plane of Abyss (darkside of Elemental Chaos) Plane of Nine Hells (darkside of Astral Sea) Undeads Demons Devils Turning, dominating, creating, summoning undeads, demons, devils, etc. Vampiric regeneration Necrotic damage type Ghostwalk (formerly Ethereal Jaunt) to travel covertly and insubstantially via Shadowfell Disease Winter, drought season Wastelands, lifeless arctic tundras, lifeless equatorial deserts, etc. Darkness
#5 cadfan May 19, 2009 18:35:04	I predict a Shadowcaster (controller), a Shadow Dancer (which will merge the Shadow Hand discipline with the more popular name of the well known PRC), and a few new classes that do not already have names. I predict that if we get a dedicated "necromancer" or "illusionist," we will get one and not both. Instead, necromancy and illusion will be areas in which all Shadow powered classes are skilled.
#6 salla May 19, 2009 18:35:45	I agree with a fair amount of Haldrik's list, except for the references to the demons and devils (which I would file as arcane, see Infernal Pact Warlock). I would also include darkness itself; turning invisible, forming zones of darkness, becoming a shadow (insubstantial/phasing), teleporting via the Shadowfell as Eladrin do the Feywild, that sort of thing.
#7 Haldrik May 19, 2009 19:32:42	Salla: I agree with a fair amount of Haldrik's list, except for the references to the demons and devils (which I would file as arcane, see Infernal Pact Warlock). But the Warlock class is all over the place. You cant really use this class to expain the themes for different power sources. The Warlock has: Infernal Pact (devils, Nine Hells, Astral Sea, Divine power source?), Star Pact (aberrants, Farrealm, Psi power source?), Fey Pact (feys, Feywild, Primal power source?), even the FR Shadow Pact (shades, Shadowfell, Shadow power source!), and via Gnoll (demons, Abyss, Elemental power source?). The Warlock pacts have nothing to do with the Arcane power source per se. If anything, these extradimensional creatures only happen to know Arcana lore, which they then transmit to the Warlock. In reallife, the word 'necromantic' often denotes black magic that invokes demons and devils (usually synonymous). This tainted theme seems appropriate for the D&D setting as well, perhaps understood as the darkside of various realms. I like your additions of Darkness and insubstantiality, tho I like the idea of Ghostwalk (etherealness) remaining conceptually distinct from Feystep (teleportation).
#8 Marandahir May 19, 2009 20:40:46	In reallife, the word 'necromantic' often denotes black magic that invokes demons and devils (usually synonymous). This tainted theme seems appropriate for the D&D setting as well, perhaps understood as the darkside of various realms. Not exactly. That's a creation of Tolkien's - he took the term Necromancer and applied it to Sauron because it invoked a scary image, even though he wasn't actually raising the dead. While Necromancy literally means "Black Magic," it mostly referred to the reviving and communication with the dead. It did have your meaning as a secondary definition though. Just not the more common form.
#9 xi_mao May 19, 2009 20:52:31	I'm actually curious...where did they confirm that Shadow source would be released in PHB4?
#10 skyodin May 19, 2009 20:57:11	The Shadow power source likely refers to one of two things: 1) The magic of darkness and death associated with the Shadowfell. This could include summoning the spirits of the dead and the darkness of the realm itself. In other words, this is the power source where one makes pacts with dark spirits. 2) Power drawn from the darkness that dwells within oneself, based on the Jungian psychology theory of the Shadow or the Freudian Id. In other words, this is the power source where one draws upon inner demons. The first is much more likely than the second, but there may be some shades of the second in the Power Source.
#11 skyodin May 19, 2009 21:02:48	Not exactly. That's a creation of Tolkien's - he took the term Necromancer and applied it to Sauron because it invoked a scary image, even though he wasn't actually raising the dead. While Necromancy literally means "Black Magic," it mostly referred to the reviving and communication with the dead. It did have your meaning as a secondary definition though. Just not the more common form. Actually, "Necro-" is a Greek prefix that means "relating to the dead". So Necromancer does loosely mean "magic of the dead". Interestingly, the negative connotation of a necromancer being an evil wizard who brings the dead back to life has been inconsistent. For example, in Le Morte d'Arthur, Thomas Malory describes Merlin as a Necromancer.
#12 xi_mao May 19, 2009 21:10:45	SkyOdin...1 tastes more like D&D to me. But 2 is appealing in several ways as I was at one time a Psychology Major (Not that Freudian psychology is still highly regarded, but it makes for great imagery). I'm not sure why, but Shadow as a power source makes me think of WoW Style warlocks...Lots of DoTs with aftereffects...Sort of like magical corruption type spells...
#13 Mist-Bound May 19, 2009 21:43:42	Not exactly. That's a creation of Tolkien's - he took the term Necromancer and applied it to Sauron because it invoked a scary image, even though he wasn't actually raising the dead. While Necromancy literally means "Black Magic," it mostly referred to the reviving and communication with the dead. It did have your meaning as a secondary definition though. Just not the more common form. As SkyOdin points out, Necromancy means, literally, "Death Magic". Black Magic is Nigromancy, a confusion that was made around the Renaissance- demonology got rolled into it in 1456 by Johannes Hartlieb. You are correct in that a historical definition of the practice, which has been traced to as early as 700 BC, is using magic to communicate with the spirits of the dead, primarily for divination purposes.
#14 mushrooman May 19, 2009 21:51:24	I personally think that necromancers can easily fit into the divine power source. Both of them affect the life source and healing/resurrection. Necromancy just follows a darker, more sinister realm. Hexblade is a good mention, and would be hard to place. In the end though it could just as easily fall under Arcane as Warlocks did. As far as shadow powers go they mostly fit under the realm of life and death which can be covered by any Deity that deals with these themes (i.e. Raven Queen or Kelemvor)
#15 xi_mao May 19, 2009 22:24:22	Ahh, Mushrooman, glad to see you here...I was going to write this in the other thread...the one about pros and cons for elemental and shadow, but decided that it's better off here. This is me trying to imagine up a class that would fit Shadow but not Arcane or Divine. The first part of it is based on my interpretation of what Shadow would be. Shadow is basically the force of Corruption and Decay in the universe, representing both the natural slow dissolution of all things, as well as the Unnatural breaking down of various things. To this end I offer up a possible idea for a Shadow Defender - The Black Shield. The Black Shield is something of a fighter who has given himself wholly to the force of the Shadow. The Black Shield's main tanking ability is actually an offensive "Aura of Corruption" It'd be something like An Aura 3 (5 at 11th, 10 at 21st) that does Necrotic Damage equal to his level every time an enemy in the aura attacks one of his allies. He'd also have a Shadow's Lure ability that Marks a target creature and deals his Con Modifier in Necrotic Damage if the Lured Creature attacks anything that isn't him. Or you could turn the "Lure" ability on it's head and allow the creature to cause bonus damage to the Black Shield. Just playing the the idea. The Black Shield's two basic paths would be the Soul Thief (Who basically benefits from Invigorating strikes like a Battlerager Fighter), and the Withering Blade (Who effectively deals some ongoing damage with every attack.) The idea is a bit barebones for the moment, but hopefully you'll forgive me, this is all off the cuff. A second thought I had for Shadow was that of what I'd call an Umbramancer or a Tenebrator (I dunno, just throwing names out again). Effectively a Shadow Striker, Tenebrator would be something akin to a Sorceror or a Warlock, but it would use ongoing damage effects to deal more damage as opposed to adding extra dice or secondary stat modifiers. Paths would be the Lingering Umbramancer who basically adds their Int (or maybe Cha) modifier as an extra difficulty to saving throws against their DoTs, and the Vindictive Umbramancer who would add: "Aftereffect - Creature takes 1d6 (More Dice at higher levels) Necrotic Damage when they successfully save against ongoing damage." to all of their powers that deal Ongoing damage.
#16 Mist-Bound May 19, 2009 22:29:38	Except Necromancers have always been considered enemies of the gods- by messing with the cycle of life and death, they are attempting to usurp divine right. Some deities, primarily the most evil and amoral, may allow the spirits and flesh of the dead to be corrupted in such a way, but fundamentally gods are opposed to necromancy. The Raven Queen, for example, is the Goddess of Death- and she commands her followers to hunt and kill necromancers. She may make use of it herself, but always in a limited fashion. Vecna and Orcus are the only "divine" entities in Core that have no problems with necromancy.
#17 Kalnaur May 19, 2009 22:54:11	I see my reflection. Of Darkness. Seriously, something controllery that handles undead, a creepy shift through shadows type striker, a dark knight type defender and a leader who pulls the life out of enemies and gives it to allies.
#18 mushrooman May 19, 2009 23:20:42	A leader who heals his allies with every hit he takes?
#19 celticmutt May 19, 2009 23:21:18	I'm actually curious...where did they confirm that Shadow source would be released in PHB4? They haven't. But since Mearls said it was still coming, and since it's not in 1, it's not in 2, it's not going to be in 3, well 4 is the next likely candidate ...
#20 Kalnaur May 19, 2009 23:22:46	They haven't. But since Mearls said it was still coming, and since it's not in 1, it's not in 2, it's not going to be in 3, well 4 is the next likely candidate ... Unless they decide to screw the Shadow fans by doing Elemental next. :D
#21 mushrooman May 19, 2009 23:41:14	Soul Eater: leader who jumps into the fray to take soak up damage, with every hit he heals his party members. Primary stats: CON and STR Necromancer: Controller who uses soul stuff to send out bone missles, slow his enemies and bind dead creatures for short periods of service. CON and CHA Shadowmancer: Controller who uses shadow stuff to create illusion and panic in his enemies. CON and WIS Shadow Striker: Striker that uses necromatic effects to slowly drain the life from his victims do damage over time. CON and CHA Shadow Dancer: Striker that uses the power of the shadowfell to gain combat advantage and weaken her enemies from the shadows. DEX and WIS Most of these ideas I have borrowed from the above replies.
#22 Caeric May 19, 2009 23:41:42	I could see Duskblades, Hexblades, Necromancers, and Ninjas coming out of Shadow. They're all as likely as anything else at this point. Well, perhaps Necromancer and Ninja are more likely than Duskblade and Hexblade.
#23 alitain May 20, 2009 2:33:40	Honestly I see Necromancers and Shadow Leaders. They'd probably be similar to the Shaman and maybe we'll see them get like a skeleton minion or something. Aside from that, Ninja would be Shadow Striker. They already mentioned how they'd look to fitting such classes in other sources and Shadow would fit the Ninja perfectly. Otherwise I'm not sure for Controller and Defender. Probably some kind of Shadow Knight or something, the polar opposite of the Paladin.
#24 xi_mao May 20, 2009 5:12:49	Somehow, some of these just don't jive well with me. Possibly because may knowledge of what the Shadow Source is highly incomplete. I've looked at some of the examples (Thank you D&D Compendium) that exist now, but most of what it seems to do is conjure shadow clones and weaken things...which sort of fits with my ideas about the shadow but also don't fit very well. The idea of a Shadow "Leader" seems off to me I think, though the "Soul Eater" suggested above seems like a most likely candidate. Ninja seems to Martial to me to be a Shadow Class, and Necromancer feels too Arcane to me...And, well...Anti-Paladin/Blackguard fits for defender, but it almost feels too divine, which is why I conjured up my Blackshield Idea.
#25 pauln6 May 20, 2009 7:01:19	Groan, I was really hoping to be able to use some shadowy stuff for my converted 2e shadow mage (currently infernal warlock build). I really hope it hasn't been bumped - I'd rather have shadow stuff than Martial Power 2. The illusionist will remain arcane and I think the Shadowcaster will be a controller more akin to the 3e version i.e. more sneaky, less flashy (fingers crossed for an umbral hand cantrip). Maybe there will be a paragon path entitled shadow mage that will have pre-requisites of orb of illusion class feature OR a shadowcaster class feature and it will allow you pick a utlilty power from the other class similar to the Fey Beguiler pp. I also think that shadow dancers and hex blades might make it in. I'm still hoping for a proper shadow pact for warlocks too.
#26 Mcnancy May 20, 2009 16:16:04	Some ideas and feelings I have about Shadow: I'm not a fan of classes that just "use shadow power"; I want classes that have a dynamic relationship with their power source, I don't want the Shadowfell to just be something for a class to tap into, I want the forces of Shadow to be a part of their identity and story. That being said... Hexblade: Role: Controller. You manipulate the battle by afflicting and foiling enemies with your karmic auras, hexes, and using powers that hinder your enemies’ attacks. Power Source: Shadow. Your soul is tainted by the power of the Shadowfell, you are a harbinger of corruption and ill omen, sadness follows your every step. Key Abilities: Strength, Charisma, Intelligence Not many Hexblades aspired to walk their path, it is a hard lonely road with little reward. Many Hexblades are born into it, perhaps it's was written long ago that a child would be born marked by the Shadowfell and that a part of death itself would sewn into it's soul. On occasion, when a soul is brought back to life after it has traveled too long across the Shadowfell, it is returned to body still bearing the touch of oblivion, and they too are fated to be Hexblades. The power and burden of a Hexblade is the baleful destuctive force that lingers about them and draws all things towards ruin, Hexblades can learn to control their power by focusing their anger and wrath at the enemies they battle. In many cases Hexblades try to rail against their dark fate, they choose to fight evil with evil as a way of proving to themselves they are not simply plagues apon the world or the pawns to the forces of evil. Mechanically I see them as having two class features to choose from, both grant a simple Karmic Aura of some type, maybe a misfortune aura based on Cha and a sickness aura based on Int. They would have a combination of melee attacks and close attacks; the melee attacks cause the aura to have special effects on everyone inside, the close attacks would be more harsh but have less AoE for when you want to spare your allies. The Hexblade would be short on range, but they could defend themselves a little more than your average Controller, via karmic retribution.