Some issues with the Psion - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Some issues with the Psion

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
d1tremere
Jul 09, 2009 14:17:52 I find it odd for powers (such as Dishearten and Id Insinuation) to effect everyone as opposed to only enemies.
It seems to be a situation where there taking the cookie cutter approach (k this seems like a similar ability block to a wizard and it seems balanced) to designing the class, and loosing any connection to the unique nature of the class.
It would be a poor telepath indeed who couldn't choose which minds to effect when using a power they have early on and use all the time, more like a telepath in training then an actual player character.
Any chance of having this changed before it goes gold so to speak?
(Not saying they should have no powers that target everyone, but there at will power definitely should be more under there control in my opinion.)
#2
Stuntman
Jul 09, 2009 15:00:00 I think we would all like to have AoE effects that only target enemies instead of creatures. There are some powers that do this. Not sure about psion powers off the top of my head. Some wizard powers do and many divine powers seem to target only enemies as well or they hurt enemies while aiding allies.

As to why certain psion powers do not target only enemies, I would say that more interesting game play is one reason. It makes for more interesting decisions on how to use this power and forces more team work to make effective use of AoE powers that affect all creatures. If your powers only affect enemies, it is easier to use and the power will be more powerful as a result.

Some powers may be a simple wave of psionic energy that affects everyone. It's like a psionic explosion. Just because it is psionic does not automatically mean the psion has ultimate control on which creatures it effects.

Since this is completed material, I assume they have already developed it enough to decide that the power is simply better for the game if it affects all creatures instead of just enemies. Sometimes powers are simply better or more interesting if they affect all creatures. Sometimes it is better if it affects only enemies. The particular psion powers in questions are the way they are because it makes the game play more fun and interesting.
#3
d1tremere
Jul 09, 2009 15:18:28
I think we would all like to have AoE effects that only target enemies instead of creatures. There are some powers that do this. Not sure about psion powers off the top of my head. Some wizard powers do and many divine powers seem to target only enemies as well or they hurt enemies while aiding allies.

As to why certain psion powers do not target only enemies, I would say that more interesting game play is one reason. It makes for more interesting decisions on how to use this power and forces more team work to make effective use of AoE powers that affect all creatures. If your powers only affect enemies, it is easier to use and the power will be more powerful as a result.

Some powers may be a simple wave of psionic energy that affects everyone. It's like a psionic explosion. Just because it is psionic does not automatically mean the psion has ultimate control on which creatures it effects.

Since this is completed material, I assume they have already developed it enough to decide that the power is simply better for the game if it affects all creatures instead of just enemies. Sometimes powers are simply better or more interesting if they affect all creatures. Sometimes it is better if it affects only enemies. The particular psion powers in questions are the way they are because it makes the game play more fun and interesting.

I don't see how having the Psion's powers play "exactly" like the wizards powers makes the game play more fun or interesting, nor do I see how having an "effects Allies as well" power as your main at will attack will be anything but irritating after a few short uses.

I get the power balance thing, but an Id attack that you can't target or control makes no sense thematically. Compare it to the 3E version, which was a direct attack on a single targets mind. Now it's a sloppy AoE with no control or class, It's like playing a Psion trainee.

I could be wrong, but I always thought a Psion with lack of control was called a wilder...
#4
incenjucar
Jul 09, 2009 15:45:53
I get the power balance thing, but an Id attack that you can't target or control makes no sense thematically. Compare it to the 3E version, which was a direct attack on a single targets mind. Now it's a sloppy AoE with no control or class, It's like playing a Psion trainee.

I could be wrong, but I always thought a Psion with lack of control was called a wilder...

This is merely a disagreement between you and WotC on the themes of a psion. They obviously envision psychic waves instead of psychic tethers. I would presume that a Wilder would be more like a Sorceror.

Really, what you seem to want is for them to be control strikers or something.
#5
Stuntman
Jul 09, 2009 16:42:09
I don't see how having the Psion's powers play "exactly" like the wizards powers makes the game play more fun or interesting, nor do I see how having an "effects Allies as well" power as your main at will attack will be anything but irritating after a few short uses.

The psion powers are not exactly like wizard powers. They are quite different. Different does not necessarily mean that all psion powers must only target enemies.

I get the power balance thing, but an Id attack that you can't target or control makes no sense thematically. Compare it to the 3E version, which was a direct attack on a single targets mind. Now it's a sloppy AoE with no control or class, It's like playing a Psion trainee.

I suspect that the reason it targets all creatures instead of enemies only is for balance reasons. If you look at all of the at-wills, only the epic AoE ones affect enemies only. An at-will AoE that affects only enemies is something that I would consider to be overpowered.

I think you just have an issue with either the name or the description that does not match the rules according to how you envision the power. If this is the case, just rename the power and/or change the description so that it matches the power. If anything, blame the creative writers for writing such a crappy and inaccurate description of the power. Changing this and other at-will psychic AoE powers to affect only enemies would seem too overpowered even if you think that no psychic AoE's should ever target allies.
#6
Mock
Jul 09, 2009 17:03:04 Look at it this way: it's consistent with the Monk's AoEs, which hit everybody, and not just enemies. ;)
#7
doctorhook
Jul 09, 2009 17:07:28 I dunno, I can see that a Psion's "psychic blasts" might affect everyone (perhaps even himself) from a thematic point of view. Of course, I can also picture that it might not.

Out of curiosity, does anyone else think this thread is in the wrong forum?
#8
Grazel
Jul 09, 2009 20:13:22 Well the psion isn't officially out so it is technically still a 'future release'.

The issue I had with some of the at-wills is that the flavor text says you target your foes (often with tethers rather than a shockwave) but the power stats says all creatures rather than all enemies.

Many invoker powers (also a controller) affect enemies only, but not their at-wills. The issue is that since the psion gets no pure encounter powers (and augmented at-wills don't change from all creatures to all enemies) it'd make sense that their at-wills target all enemies instead. At first level for the Invoker all the burst/blast at-wills are all creatures, but all the burst/blast encounter and dailies are all enemies. It would seem that they applied the at-wills can't be all enemies rule that applies to other classes to the psion forgetting that psions don't get regular encounter powers and that their at-wills work as encounter powers so should be exempt from the 'have to target all' rule.

Either they should change at least some of the at-will burst/blasts to enemies only or provide a feat for psions that lets them exclude allies from their burst/blast attacks (heck they should make that a feat for all classes, in paragon tier).
#9
Stuntman
Jul 10, 2009 0:28:46
Either they should change at least some of the at-will burst/blasts to enemies only or provide a feat for psions that lets them exclude allies from their burst/blast attacks (heck they should make that a feat for all classes, in paragon tier).

Wizards have Spell Accuracy. It is possible that psions will get a similar feat.
#10
just0chris
Jul 10, 2009 6:21:19
Wizards have Spell Accuracy. It is possible that psions will get a similar feat.

I agree with this. Right now only Wizards can alter their spells to only affect certain targets, which represents their improved study of the arcane arts over other classes. It seems reasonable that Psions would have a similar feat, although it would be nice if they didn't have to wait till Epic Tier for it.

I feel completely the opposite of the OP though. I would think that Psions would have more finesse with powers they developed later, while the first powers they developed would be crude and unwieldy since they were developed when they were first exploring their powers.

...it would be nice if some of the augments changed them from 'target all creatures' to 'target all enemies' though. That kinda seems like the kind of thing augments would be meant to do.
#11
d1tremere
Jul 10, 2009 11:14:44 As I said, it's mostly a thematic problem for me.
It's hard to imagine a Telepath (say Jean Gray from X-Men) accidently taking out there whole team because they lack the control and mental discipline to pick out the foes minds on the battlefield.
Perhaps if we were to assume were starting out as trainees as opposed to heroes.

From a balance perspective the stat blocks are functional, but this is the first time for me that 4E is doing a worse job then previous editions of representing the premise of a class.

All opinion, I know.
#12
Stuntman
Jul 10, 2009 14:34:17
As I said, it's mostly a thematic problem for me.
It's hard to imagine a Telepath (say Jean Gray from X-Men) accidently taking out there whole team because they lack the control and mental discipline to pick out the foes minds on the battlefield.
Perhaps if we were to assume were starting out as trainees as opposed to heroes.

From a balance perspective the stat blocks are functional, but this is the first time for me that 4E is doing a worse job then previous editions of representing the premise of a class.

All opinion, I know.

There are many things you can pick out in various works of fiction that may not translate well into a fun gaming experience for D&D. If telepathic AoE powers are able to discriminate enemies from allies very easily, then they would have to be nerfed in some way to balance them. On top of that, it would also have a ripple effect on other aspects of D&D as well. Being able to easily discriminate between allies and enemies will make movement and forced movement less important. Too much AoE effects that affect enemies only may lead to combats where movement become less important if both sides have such powers. Such combats may become less interesting.

I agree that thematically, it can make sense that psionic AoE powers only affect enemies. From a game mechanics point of view, AoE powers that harm enemies only may be reserved for leader classes. AoE powers that harm all creatures may be a better fit for controllers.

The PHB does have AoE powers that harm enemies only. Many of these powers belong to the cleric. Also, many of these powers in addition to harming enemies, help allies in the same AoE. It would make sense from a functional point of view that for a leader, AoE powers that both harm enemies and help allies in the same AoE.

Perhaps the psionic leader class will have many AoE powers that harm enemies only, but will also help allies. Such mechanics appear to fit the leader classes. Controller classes will mostly have powers that affect all creatures. It is nice to have powers whose effect fit the flavour of the character and meshes well with the game play.

In the case of the psion, the game play mechanics clash with how you envision psionic powers should work thematically. The description also sounds like it should work differently than the rules text. This is not the first time and likely not the last time this happens in the WotC published material. I have the same problem with the description of Commander's Strike. The rules and description do not match in my opinion.
#13
Mcnancy
Jul 10, 2009 14:49:04
It's hard to imagine a Telepath (
say Jean Gray from X-Men

) accidently taking out there whole team because they lack the control and mental discipline to pick out the foes minds on the battlefield.

Really, cuss I'm pretty sure it's happened, more than once.
#14
doctorhook
Jul 10, 2009 15:28:20
Really, cuss I'm pretty sure it's happened, more than once.

Good example, Mcnancy. X-Men is probably why I, too, don't have trouble imagining a Psion who's "outta control" so-to-speak.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 d1tremere Jul 09, 2009 14:17:52	I find it odd for powers (such as Dishearten and Id Insinuation) to effect everyone as opposed to only enemies. It seems to be a situation where there taking the cookie cutter approach (k this seems like a similar ability block to a wizard and it seems balanced) to designing the class, and loosing any connection to the unique nature of the class. It would be a poor telepath indeed who couldn't choose which minds to effect when using a power they have early on and use all the time, more like a telepath in training then an actual player character. Any chance of having this changed before it goes gold so to speak? (Not saying they should have no powers that target everyone, but there at will power definitely should be more under there control in my opinion.)
#2 Stuntman Jul 09, 2009 15:00:00	I think we would all like to have AoE effects that only target enemies instead of creatures. There are some powers that do this. Not sure about psion powers off the top of my head. Some wizard powers do and many divine powers seem to target only enemies as well or they hurt enemies while aiding allies. As to why certain psion powers do not target only enemies, I would say that more interesting game play is one reason. It makes for more interesting decisions on how to use this power and forces more team work to make effective use of AoE powers that affect all creatures. If your powers only affect enemies, it is easier to use and the power will be more powerful as a result. Some powers may be a simple wave of psionic energy that affects everyone. It's like a psionic explosion. Just because it is psionic does not automatically mean the psion has ultimate control on which creatures it effects. Since this is completed material, I assume they have already developed it enough to decide that the power is simply better for the game if it affects all creatures instead of just enemies. Sometimes powers are simply better or more interesting if they affect all creatures. Sometimes it is better if it affects only enemies. The particular psion powers in questions are the way they are because it makes the game play more fun and interesting.
#3 d1tremere Jul 09, 2009 15:18:28	I think we would all like to have AoE effects that only target enemies instead of creatures. There are some powers that do this. Not sure about psion powers off the top of my head. Some wizard powers do and many divine powers seem to target only enemies as well or they hurt enemies while aiding allies. As to why certain psion powers do not target only enemies, I would say that more interesting game play is one reason. It makes for more interesting decisions on how to use this power and forces more team work to make effective use of AoE powers that affect all creatures. If your powers only affect enemies, it is easier to use and the power will be more powerful as a result. Some powers may be a simple wave of psionic energy that affects everyone. It's like a psionic explosion. Just because it is psionic does not automatically mean the psion has ultimate control on which creatures it effects. Since this is completed material, I assume they have already developed it enough to decide that the power is simply better for the game if it affects all creatures instead of just enemies. Sometimes powers are simply better or more interesting if they affect all creatures. Sometimes it is better if it affects only enemies. The particular psion powers in questions are the way they are because it makes the game play more fun and interesting. I don't see how having the Psion's powers play "exactly" like the wizards powers makes the game play more fun or interesting, nor do I see how having an "effects Allies as well" power as your main at will attack will be anything but irritating after a few short uses. I get the power balance thing, but an Id attack that you can't target or control makes no sense thematically. Compare it to the 3E version, which was a direct attack on a single targets mind. Now it's a sloppy AoE with no control or class, It's like playing a Psion trainee. I could be wrong, but I always thought a Psion with lack of control was called a wilder...
#4 incenjucar Jul 09, 2009 15:45:53	I get the power balance thing, but an Id attack that you can't target or control makes no sense thematically. Compare it to the 3E version, which was a direct attack on a single targets mind. Now it's a sloppy AoE with no control or class, It's like playing a Psion trainee. I could be wrong, but I always thought a Psion with lack of control was called a wilder... This is merely a disagreement between you and WotC on the themes of a psion. They obviously envision psychic waves instead of psychic tethers. I would presume that a Wilder would be more like a Sorceror. Really, what you seem to want is for them to be control strikers or something.
#5 Stuntman Jul 09, 2009 16:42:09	I don't see how having the Psion's powers play "exactly" like the wizards powers makes the game play more fun or interesting, nor do I see how having an "effects Allies as well" power as your main at will attack will be anything but irritating after a few short uses. The psion powers are not exactly like wizard powers. They are quite different. Different does not necessarily mean that all psion powers must only target enemies. I get the power balance thing, but an Id attack that you can't target or control makes no sense thematically. Compare it to the 3E version, which was a direct attack on a single targets mind. Now it's a sloppy AoE with no control or class, It's like playing a Psion trainee. I suspect that the reason it targets all creatures instead of enemies only is for balance reasons. If you look at all of the at-wills, only the epic AoE ones affect enemies only. An at-will AoE that affects only enemies is something that I would consider to be overpowered. I think you just have an issue with either the name or the description that does not match the rules according to how you envision the power. If this is the case, just rename the power and/or change the description so that it matches the power. If anything, blame the creative writers for writing such a crappy and inaccurate description of the power. Changing this and other at-will psychic AoE powers to affect only enemies would seem too overpowered even if you think that no psychic AoE's should ever target allies.
#6 Mock Jul 09, 2009 17:03:04	Look at it this way: it's consistent with the Monk's AoEs, which hit everybody, and not just enemies. ;)
#7 doctorhook Jul 09, 2009 17:07:28	I dunno, I can see that a Psion's "psychic blasts" might affect everyone (perhaps even himself) from a thematic point of view. Of course, I can also picture that it might not. Out of curiosity, does anyone else think this thread is in the wrong forum?
#8 Grazel Jul 09, 2009 20:13:22	Well the psion isn't officially out so it is technically still a 'future release'. The issue I had with some of the at-wills is that the flavor text says you target your foes (often with tethers rather than a shockwave) but the power stats says all creatures rather than all enemies. Many invoker powers (also a controller) affect enemies only, but not their at-wills. The issue is that since the psion gets no pure encounter powers (and augmented at-wills don't change from all creatures to all enemies) it'd make sense that their at-wills target all enemies instead. At first level for the Invoker all the burst/blast at-wills are all creatures, but all the burst/blast encounter and dailies are all enemies. It would seem that they applied the at-wills can't be all enemies rule that applies to other classes to the psion forgetting that psions don't get regular encounter powers and that their at-wills work as encounter powers so should be exempt from the 'have to target all' rule. Either they should change at least some of the at-will burst/blasts to enemies only or provide a feat for psions that lets them exclude allies from their burst/blast attacks (heck they should make that a feat for all classes, in paragon tier).
#9 Stuntman Jul 10, 2009 0:28:46	Either they should change at least some of the at-will burst/blasts to enemies only or provide a feat for psions that lets them exclude allies from their burst/blast attacks (heck they should make that a feat for all classes, in paragon tier). Wizards have Spell Accuracy. It is possible that psions will get a similar feat.
#10 just0chris Jul 10, 2009 6:21:19	Wizards have Spell Accuracy. It is possible that psions will get a similar feat. I agree with this. Right now only Wizards can alter their spells to only affect certain targets, which represents their improved study of the arcane arts over other classes. It seems reasonable that Psions would have a similar feat, although it would be nice if they didn't have to wait till Epic Tier for it. I feel completely the opposite of the OP though. I would think that Psions would have more finesse with powers they developed later, while the first powers they developed would be crude and unwieldy since they were developed when they were first exploring their powers. ...it would be nice if some of the augments changed them from 'target all creatures' to 'target all enemies' though. That kinda seems like the kind of thing augments would be meant to do.
#11 d1tremere Jul 10, 2009 11:14:44	As I said, it's mostly a thematic problem for me. It's hard to imagine a Telepath (say Jean Gray from X-Men) accidently taking out there whole team because they lack the control and mental discipline to pick out the foes minds on the battlefield. Perhaps if we were to assume were starting out as trainees as opposed to heroes. From a balance perspective the stat blocks are functional, but this is the first time for me that 4E is doing a worse job then previous editions of representing the premise of a class. All opinion, I know.
#12 Stuntman Jul 10, 2009 14:34:17	As I said, it's mostly a thematic problem for me. It's hard to imagine a Telepath (say Jean Gray from X-Men) accidently taking out there whole team because they lack the control and mental discipline to pick out the foes minds on the battlefield. Perhaps if we were to assume were starting out as trainees as opposed to heroes. From a balance perspective the stat blocks are functional, but this is the first time for me that 4E is doing a worse job then previous editions of representing the premise of a class. All opinion, I know. There are many things you can pick out in various works of fiction that may not translate well into a fun gaming experience for D&D. If telepathic AoE powers are able to discriminate enemies from allies very easily, then they would have to be nerfed in some way to balance them. On top of that, it would also have a ripple effect on other aspects of D&D as well. Being able to easily discriminate between allies and enemies will make movement and forced movement less important. Too much AoE effects that affect enemies only may lead to combats where movement become less important if both sides have such powers. Such combats may become less interesting. I agree that thematically, it can make sense that psionic AoE powers only affect enemies. From a game mechanics point of view, AoE powers that harm enemies only may be reserved for leader classes. AoE powers that harm all creatures may be a better fit for controllers. The PHB does have AoE powers that harm enemies only. Many of these powers belong to the cleric. Also, many of these powers in addition to harming enemies, help allies in the same AoE. It would make sense from a functional point of view that for a leader, AoE powers that both harm enemies and help allies in the same AoE. Perhaps the psionic leader class will have many AoE powers that harm enemies only, but will also help allies. Such mechanics appear to fit the leader classes. Controller classes will mostly have powers that affect all creatures. It is nice to have powers whose effect fit the flavour of the character and meshes well with the game play. In the case of the psion, the game play mechanics clash with how you envision psionic powers should work thematically. The description also sounds like it should work differently than the rules text. This is not the first time and likely not the last time this happens in the WotC published material. I have the same problem with the description of Commander's Strike. The rules and description do not match in my opinion.
#13 Mcnancy Jul 10, 2009 14:49:04	It's hard to imagine a Telepath ( say Jean Gray from X-Men ) accidently taking out there whole team because they lack the control and mental discipline to pick out the foes minds on the battlefield. Really, cuss I'm pretty sure it's happened, more than once.
#14 doctorhook Jul 10, 2009 15:28:20	Really, cuss I'm pretty sure it's happened, more than once. Good example, Mcnancy. X-Men is probably why I, too, don't have trouble imagining a Psion who's "outta control" so-to-speak.