What do you think?
I mean, it's cool conceptually, and makes enough sense, but it's not right balance-wise.
Plus, in reality there would be few Powers that would fit well, since there would be different Abilities that are key to the class then other classes and their Powers. So in the end it be the same basically as just having a ordinary Power list.
I never liked that they were just taking stuff from Wizards class.
I think you got that backwards. Wizards were learning how to do stuff the Sorcerer does naturally. Therefore, the Wizards were the one ripping off the Sorcerer. ;)
Anyway... Sorcerors have a defined role... So they won't be borrowing. My guess is that they'll melee controllers.
My guess is that they'll melee controllers.
Isn't a melee Controller called a Defender?
I honestly find it very difficult to believe they will be melee. I could even see them focusing more on Close powers than Wizards, but melee? I'm not seeing it. Why do you think they'd choose to make the Sorcerer a melee class?
Oh and the bit of (oudated) fluff in races and classes. If an effects leaves left-over energies around the caster... Kinda makes sense for them to be melee.
Defenders are sticky... Controllers make life hard on minions and debuff everyone.
Edit: I haven't seen the druid... Is it melee? It's supposed to be a controller.
Isn't a melee Controller called a Defender?
I honestly find it very difficult to believe they will be melee. I could even see them focusing more on Close powers than Wizards, but melee? I'm not seeing it. Why do you think they'd choose to make the Sorcerer a melee class?
While not melee persay in using weaponry I could see the Sorcerer employing a variety of Close Burst and Blast Spells and Melee Touch Spells. I could see actually the Melee Touch Spell as being one of its main aspects, and have many more of them then other classes with their own Melee Touch Powers (whatever Source they may be).
Ex: A Sorcerer's fist "flames on" and comes crashing into the gut of a Kobold. A quick burst of flames surround the Sorcerer as he lets out a cry with his heated energy. The Kobolds in a certain area then take a penalty to attack rolls due to fear (aka, secondary attack, Cha vs. Will) or maybe slide a number of squares equal to the Sorcerer's Charisma modifier.
Nooooo way.
I mean, it's cool conceptually, and makes enough sense, but it's not right balance-wise.
^This exactly.
I like the idea, but I doubt sincerely that they would do something like that this early in the life of the new edition.
Can you imagine being able to freely mix Wizard, Sword Mage, and Artificer powers? It would be way to powerful.
Nooooo way.
I mean, it's cool conceptually, and makes enough sense, but it's not right balance-wise.
Add my vote here.^
It would be a very bad precedent for new classes, I think, because it would be so difficult to balance. Maybe if it only borrowed from Wizard (who shares its role), but then it would just be boring.
Sorry dude, but being able to pick from any Arcane powers would be just asking to be min-maxed.
Edit: I haven't seen the druid... Is it melee? It's supposed to be a controller.
Druid has some melee powers (in beast form), but neither the HP nor the defenses to be in melee for any sustained length of time.
Either they aren't controllers anymore or they misspoke in the podcast(mentions that there are two controllers in PHBII and both have been previewed).-=Edit: I'm voting it is now an arcane striker.=-
*cries* Dang it we are back to square 1 with sorcerer speculation.
-=Edit: I'm voting it is now an arcane striker.=-
Wait, what? Not Controllers? Uhh...
There was a Sorcerer character in the book "Swordmage" a year ago- I wonder if it still holds any relevance to the class at all?
1. Aura mechanic as a Class Feature. Sorta a secondary power-up based on elemental type of spell cast. Think Barbarian rage, but fueled by magic.
2. I agree with more close burts and blasts. But tag in a 'napalm' type splash damage from spells as a monster passes the pain along to close by enemies.
3. Paracitic meta magic utilites. Drain ongoing conjuration and zones to power spells.
4. Perhaps elemental resistances, especially to ongoing effects.
5. Minimal Ritual support.
I imagine the Sorcerer running around like an unstable bomb of raw arcane magic. One step from roasting the foe and one step from roasting the party or exploding himself. A very strikery Controller.
i always thought the "proof" of Arcane Controller was rather flimsy-
The proof isn't flimsy at all. It was actually stated at one point that they have the same role and power source as the Wizard. I think it's in one of the stickies, the one that shows confirmed future release information. I'll look for it...
The proof isn't flimsy at all. It was actually stated at one point that they have the same role and power source as the Wizard. I think it's in one of the stickies, the one that shows confirmed future release information. I'll look for it...
I followed the link to the source, and it seemed to me that the person was talking about something else.
I followed the link to the source, and it seemed to me that the person was talking about something else.
The person was talking about multiple things, and the bit about the Sorcerer being the same role and power source as the Wizard is in there somewhere... :P
EDIT: It's near the end of that big paragraph in the middle.
The person was talking about multiple things, and the bit about the Sorcerer being the same role and power source as the Wizard is in there somewhere... :P
EDIT: It's near the end of that big paragraph in the middle.
Yea, I read that as referring to sorcerer in 3.x, not 4th.
Yea, I read that as referring to sorcerer in 3.x, not 4th.
Rassanfrazzin.....I can't believe I'm actually looking this up so I can dissect it. Figures I would decide to do it on a night when my internet connection is ungodly slow.
The 3rd Edition sorcerer was spurred by the simple observation that an enormous hunk of valuable real estate in the Player's Handbook was devoted to the support of a single class--the wizard. I asked the question, "Is there some other way we can utilize all these spells?" That and the idea of cast-on-the-fly from a limited list was enough to get the sorcerer into the book, and it became one of the most popular innovations of the 3rd Edition game. In 4th Edition, we don't want to design classes for this sort of reason anymore; since every class is in effect a spellcaster, we don't want to see a 99% overlap of the power lists between two classes. That mean taking the sorcerer back to the broad story concepts (concepts that evolved later in the sorcerer's original 3e design, since the sorcerer began with mechanics in 3e) and thinking hard about what it *could* be and how it could occupy the same role and power source as the wizard but be a different class. I think we've got some great ideas cooking up on that score. (Hint: It might involve some wild magery.)
Okay now let's review all the problems, and there are many, with this statement referring to 3.X sorcerer. For starters, there were no defined roles in 3.X. Secondly the sorcerer in 3.X had no wild magic to it, so the following statement would make no sense what so ever. Next up, why would they be coming up with ideas on how to differentiate the 3.X sorcerer from the 3.X wizard when both are for non-supported versions of the game and both were published before I entered high school. And really I could go on, but I'm bored so I'll just leave it at that for now.
1. Aura mechanic as a Class Feature. Sorta a secondary power-up based on elemental type of spell cast. Think Barbarian rage, but fueled by magic..
I would love to see an aura like feature, I think that would be something that would actually make a good class at least in concept. (which I don't expect the 4e sorcerer to be unless its just a more powerful wizard and I so hope that doesn't happen)
Okay now let's review all the problems, and there are many, with this statement referring to 3.X sorcerer. For starters, there were no defined roles in 3.X. Secondly the sorcerer in 3.X had no wild magic to it, so the following statement would make no sense what so ever. Next up, why would they be coming up with ideas on how to differentiate the 3.X sorcerer from the 3.X wizard when both are for non-supported versions of the game and both were published before I entered high school. And really I could go on, but I'm bored so I'll just leave it at that for now.
Actually, I was just reading "currently the same role and power source." Everything else is how they intend to make them distinct in 4E.
Actually, I was just reading "currently the same role and power source." Everything else is how they intend to make them distinct in 4E.
"Currently" IS 4E. :P
"Currently" IS 4E. :P
But it wasn't at the time it was writen, I believe...
Actually, I was just reading "currently the same role and power source." Everything else is how they intend to make them distinct in 4E.
.....But it says "how it could occupy the same role and power source". And that is future tense. The word currently doesn't even appear in the post once.
.....But it says "how it could occupy the same role and power source". And that is future tense. The word currently doesn't even appear in the post once.
Well, perhaps I was wrong then.
Now we'll see if I'm still wrong.
I see the Sorcerer more in the way of enchantments and illusions, dominating creatures with their charm or confusing them in some way. Of course, I could be wrong... :P
I won't say it's impossible, but that sounds a lot more like the intentions for the Psionic and Shadow power sources than Arcane.
.....But it says "how it could occupy the same role and power source". And that is future tense. The word currently doesn't even appear in the post once.
"Could" is also indicative of being indefinite. Sorcerer could have been planned as an arcane controller based on initial concepts, and morphed over time to another role. Heck, for all we know, they ended up with so many controller concepts for PHB3 they had to take one out of PHB2.
I won't say it's impossible, but that sounds a lot more like the intentions for the Psionic and Shadow power sources than Arcane.
You do realize that the power source has nothing to do with what a person can use his powers for. In mean, an enchanter in 3.5 was pretty arcane, but had about the same powers as that of a Telepathic Psion (not just all Psion schools).
Personally, I think the Sorcerer is probably going to be a striker with a new mechanic. Perfect for my Swordmage I am making to increase his damage without dabbling in the dirtiness of the warlock. By the time Arcane Power comes out, it should be just great for me grab a multi-classing feat for. Though, with my luck the stats wont jive at all (though Sorcs could easily be charisma and constitution), so this will end in tears.
You do realize that the power source has nothing to do with what a person can use his powers for. In mean, an enchanter in 3.5 was pretty arcane, but had about the same powers as that of a Telepathic Psion (not just all Psion schools).
Yeah, but in 3.5E Psionics was redundant along magic (and vice versa); both systems had powers that could do just about everything the other system did, to the point that your game only really needed to include one or the other. That's one reason (among several) why Psionics never got total acceptance.
In 4E, one of the design strategies announced early on was to end this level of redundancy. It was suggested that what used to be the schools of Illusion and Necromancy got mostly separated from the Arcane power source to form the Shadow power source, and that in the same way, Enchantment (ie: magic that influenced the mind) would become the primary domain of the Psionic power source. They said that types of powers wouldn't be completely restricted to certain power sources, but that while a Wizard might be able to cast a charm spell or two, those types of effects would be much more the purview of Psionic characters, who would also have a much broader range of those types of spells.
It's from a pretty early 4E preview, but it's a sound philosophy which has remained mostly true so far. So, when you suggested that Sorcerers be mostly about Enchantment and Illusion, it just seemed unlikely in light of this information.
It was suggested that what used to be the schools of Illusion and Necromancy got mostly separated from the Arcane power source to form the Shadow power source, and that in the same way, Enchantment (ie: magic that influenced the mind) would become the primary domain of the Psionic power source.
Yep, which is why I'm speculating on:
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
-Necromancer = Shadow Leader
For some reason I think many of the previous names of Psionic classes will be dropped, I mean calling a Psionic class a Psion in 4th Ed would be like calling an Arcane class an Arca, Psychic Warrior seem a bit generic, Wilder has always just sounded silly to me, and Soulknife would now be more appropriate to Ki.
But I do see promise in Ardent, Empath and Telepath.
Egoist was psionic no?
Yes, psychometabolic, I believe.
Yep, which is why I'm speculating on:
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
-Necromancer = Shadow Leader
Why not combine them to make two builds of a single shadow controller?
Class feature: Arcane Aura.
Whenever you use a Sorcerer Attack power, you may choose not to add your Con bonus to damage. If you chose to not add your Con modifier, instead add half your Con modifier to your Arcane Aura.
Your Arcane Aura does automatic damage in a swirling hurricane of magical energies around you. All spaces 3 and 4 squares away from you take your Aura in damage every round. All spaces 5 and 6 squares away from you take half your aura in damage. This damage is of the element of the last spell you cast.
How's it look? This would replace the Marking feature of traditional defenders- you are either far away, or righ next to him, or else you take damage.
Sorcerer as Arcane Defender
Class feature: Arcane Aura.
Whenever you use a Sorcerer Attack power, you may choose not to add your Con bonus to damage. If you chose to not add your Con modifier, instead add half your Con modifier to your Arcane Aura.
Your Arcane Aura does automatic damage in a swirling hurricane of magical energies around you. All spaces 3 and 4 squares away from you take your Aura in damage every round. All spaces 5 and 6 squares away from you take half your aura in damage. This damage is of the element of the last spell you cast.
How's it look? This would replace the Marking feature of traditional defenders- you are either far away, or righ next to him, or else you take damage.
1. All spaces = All Squares = Allies too, which in turn means the sorcerer kills his buddies.
2. Thats anti-sticky, not sticky.
3. so far marking has been systemic for defenders, its a condition that is Designed for a defender in fact (Basically increasing non defender Defenses by 2).
Also, the aura would drop by 1 every round.
The only other possible legacy aspect from 3E that a 4E Sorcerer could have is some type of Draconic Heritage. If this is the case, then it would be more natural for Dragonborn to be good Sorcerers. Note that Dragonborn do get a +2 Cha bonus. This would put it in line with what we can expect the prime ability of the 4E Sorcerer will be.
A Sorcerer whose flavour is based no Draconic Heritage may have area damaging effects and auras. Perhaps they will have many close blast and close burst effects that deal damage and keep enemies from wanting to get near the Sorcerer. They may have fear effects that will force enemies to move away or move out of formation. Even short range flight may be something the Sorcerer will have.
As far as I know, the Sorcerer does not have much history in D&D. Other than the Draconic Heritage angle, there is not much that describes the flavour of the Sorcerer that I am aware of. It is quite possible that the 4E Sorcerer will take on aspects of some other class in 3.5 much like the 4E Rogue has some aspects of the 3.5 Ninja. However, they design the 4E Sorcerer, I'm anxious to see the preview.
Yep, which is why I'm speculating on:
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
-Necromancer = Shadow Leader
I'm laying my money exactly the same way you are, bro.
For some reason I think many of the previous names of Psionic classes will be dropped, I mean calling a Psionic class a Psion in 4th Ed would be like calling an Arcane class an Arca, Psychic Warrior seem a bit generic, Wilder has always just sounded silly to me, and Soulknife would now be more appropriate to Ki.
But I do see promise in Ardent, Empath and Telepath.
Interesting point; several of them are quite generic. Still, I like the legacy names, and I definitely like to think of Soulknife as a Psionic Striker.
A damaging aura could be used to replace typical striker manuverability.
Fluff-wise, I'm gonna go the controversial road of saying that sorcerers will no longer be innate casters, instead being simply self-taught. The Arcane power source seems to be themed around the fact that the spells are learned, either from other people (Wizards, Swordmaged ect.), or from hideous creatured from beyond (Warlock). A caster that worked the spells out himself would be an obvious addition.
This would present a nice connection with Psionics, which is a source that consits purely of innate casters.
I'm kinda hoping the psi-striker will be the Lurk, with the Soulknife being a feat.
Interesting point; several of them are quite generic. Still, I like the legacy names, and I definitely like to think of Soulknife as a Psionic Striker.
In one of the old Psionic Speculation threads there was one guy who brought up the idea of having the psi striker be the Kineticist, who had one build basically being the Soulknife, and using melee range abilities, the other being a more distance based build.
On the subject of the Sorcerer, I'm not sure how one would work it, but I kinda hope for the aura set up idea to also go into some kind of build up mechanic. Possibly having at-wills build up a certain amount, encounters a bit more and having them unleash with Dailies. There's just something I like about having a caster who actually gets more wound up the more he goes.