There is an assassin paragon path that lets you create shadowblades exactly like a soulknife used to create her psionic blades (unfortunately the PP doesn't state anything about being able to enhance your shadowblades, so they stay quite useless).
Since Assassins can make use of a Ki Focus, there is no need to be able to enhance the shadowblades.
That being said, I wouldn;t be surprised if PHB4 included a new Psionic Striker that made use of the Augmentable mechanic. The Soulknife sounds like a perfect candidate.
Frankly I'd like to see a 'soulblade' as a psionic defender, that way we can imagine the battlemind never happened.
Since Assassins can make use of a Ki Focus, there is no need to be able to enhance the shadowblades.
Multiclass and hybrid assassins are left in the cold
Since Assassins can make use of a Ki Focus, there is no need to be able to enhance the shadowblades.
Multiclass and hybrid assassins are left in the cold
No, both Hybrid and Multiclass assassins gain proficnecy with Ki Focuses, atleast the Hybrid does.
Since Assassins can make use of a Ki Focus, there is no need to be able to enhance the shadowblades.
Multiclass and hybrid assassins are left in the cold
In what way?
Both MC Assassin Feats give you the ability to use Ki Focuses, and Assassin Hybrids will be able to as well.
the assassin uses both weapons and implements he benefits the most from using a combination of his ki-focus enhanced shadowblade (a light thrown longsword) for weapon attacks and just his ki-focus for implement attacks.
the monk however who only uses implements but may use weapons with no actual additioal effects wouldn't really benefit from a psionically generated weapon. we have to imagine that the mindblades would somehow enhance the monk's attacks without being just a weapon that happens to appear out of thin air.
As an example, here's something I've envisioned:
- there are two basic soulknife builds. One that was trained in manifesting mind blades and trained in how to take advantage of the mind blade being a psychic manifestation, not bound by the usual rules of reality. They get a few bluffs and other combat advantage-type stuff. The other build is more of a wild talent soulknife, with the mind blade being raw emotion wielded as a weapon.
- The trained build gets to add Wis to damage with soulknife powers, and when you augment a power, you gain combat advantage for that attack. (Or maybe just a bonus to the attack roll. Probably more balanced that way).
- The wild talent build gets Cha to damage with soulknife powers, and when you augment a power, you deal your Cha in damage even if you miss.
- I feel like with this setup, you wouldn't need to make it Cha/Wis +2 at paragon and +4 at epic like with sorcerer, because the augment feature also boosts damage, evening out in the end.
- the use of mental ability scores to augment the soulknife was a conscious decision, because seriously, power of the mind ought to affect the power of the mind blade.
- I aimed for the trained build to feel a little like a monk + duelist (with potential for Jedi elements), while the wild talent build is more of a barbarian.
Couldn't just be a Battlemind build?
The less cool things that get sucked into that pile of fail the better.
Or, The more cool things that get injected into it the less flail it becomes
Agile Intellect: Gain training in Acrobatics and you may use your Intelligence modifier in place of Dexterity for Acrobatics checks.
Euphoric Strength: Gain training in Athletics and you may use your Charisma modifier in place of Strength for Athletics checks.
Also, I kinda see the Soulknife as a "V" class, INT and CHA primaries, CON secondary. That allows it to multiclass and hybridize well with the other psi-augmentable classes.
i like to think the soul knife might end up being a paragon path for the monk in psionic power. since the old soul knife didn't use power points i don't see it becoming an augmentable class.
I'm pro- "Mind blade" becoming a rather simple Monk class feature, with potentially some powers that benefit from it (a build, perhaps), and a paragon path.
As-is, I used my quickly-drawn-up homebrewed feature (replacing Monk Unarmed Strike), a normal Monk (Centered Breath in this case), and Rogue Multiclass (for sneak attack with the blase). Thus far, at 1st level, it feels exactly like the 3.5 Soulknife (only much more spectacularly effective, thanks to the Monk class being just plain ol' awesome).
I like the idea of an augmentable Psi-Striker, and I like Soulknives. And I like the trained vs. wild concept the other posters are running with. That's a similar tack to what I was brainstorming. I wanted to go with some of the "mind over body" egoist concepts in the Soulknife, so you'd have build options like:
Agile Intellect: Gain training in Acrobatics and you may use your Intelligence modifier in place of Dexterity for Acrobatics checks.
Euphoric Strength: Gain training in Athletics and you may use your Charisma modifier in place of Strength for Athletics checks.
Also, I kinda see the Soulknife as a "V" class, INT and CHA primaries, CON secondary. That allows it to multiclass and hybridize well with the other psi-augmentable classes.
I like this. But as a slight ammendment to V classes, I'd propose that all powers are listed as Cha or Int for attack and damage, with your choice of trained or wild setting the selected ability score. I hate having half the powers be off-limits for path choice. And it's not without precedent - some ranger powers are Str or Dex, depending on whether they're melee or ranged.
I think an important reason for the Soulknife to turn up as its own class sometime is that people want it to. I expect PHB4 to have more psionic classes in it, and if you can have Rangers and Rogues, there's no reason you can't have Monks and Soulknives, especially because the Soulknife would probably have augmentable powers.
It's entire class based around using an energy blade, it's contrived.
I think an important reason for the Soulknife to turn up as its own class sometime is that people want it to.
I think that's a rather weak reason, really.
After all, the list of things that "people want" to see as full classes is all over the board, and a rather poor indicator of what WotC will make into a class.
I mean, if a group on the forums were enough to justify a class, we'd have cavaliers, and chemists, and dragoons, and whip-masters, and indimidating fighters, and ninjas, and samurais, and engineers, and blue-mages, and time-mages, and a dex-based martial defender, and martial controllers (in droves), and a martial monk, etc, etc.
I expect PHB4 to have more psionic classes in it, and if you can have Rangers and Rogues, there's no reason you can't have Monks and Soulknives, especially because the Soulknife would probably have augmentable powers.
All right, an augmentable rogue!
I think an important reason for the Soulknife to turn up as its own class sometime is that people want it to.
Does that mean that if people want a Samurai class as a Martial, weapon based defender with one handed/two handed/two weapon styles, it should show up too?
The simple problem with the Soulknife is that it is redundant. It is a mobile, lightly armored, single target/point blank area effect melee character who doesn't use weapons. The Monk is a mobile, lightly armored, single target/point blank area effect melee character who doesn't use weapons. Ergo, unless someone can demonstrate how the Soulknife would bring something completely new to the table, perhaps it is best left to reflavoring.
Besides, it has already been mentioned that a future Monk build will involve weapon use, based on Shaolin concepts. It is quite possible that a paragon path or feat option would allow the projection of a soul blade which could qualify for any weapon-based abilities (so if you have a power that requires a heavy blade, you can use the feat to qualify for it with your unarmed strike). Ergo, a Soulknife.
I think an important reason for the Soulknife to turn up as its own class sometime is that people want it to. I expect PHB4 to have more psionic classes in it, and if you can have Rangers and Rogues, there's no reason you can't have Monks and Soulknives, especially because the Soulknife would probably have augmentable powers.
It's entire class based around using an energy blade, it's contrived.
So I take it you didn't play the Jedi in the Star Wars game, then?
I think an important reason for the Soulknife to turn up as its own class sometime is that people want it to. I expect PHB4 to have more psionic classes in it, and if you can have Rangers and Rogues, there's no reason you can't have Monks and Soulknives, especially because the Soulknife would probably have augmentable powers.
I clearly see a story reason for the Soulknife existing as it's own class in the world which is now a major criteria for a full class. In five months time if there's nothing that's a Soulknife in Psionic Power, it'll certainly add more fuel to their being a full class. And there's also the fact that "Mr. Psionic" still works for WotC.
I think an important reason for the Soulknife to turn up as its own class sometime is that people want it to. I expect PHB4 to have more psionic classes in it, and if you can have Rangers and Rogues, there's no reason you can't have Monks and Soulknives, especially because the Soulknife would probably have augmentable powers.
It's entire class based around using an energy blade, it's contrived.
So I take it you didn't play the Jedi in the Star Wars game, then?
Jedi isn't quite the same thing, though - there's much more to them then "I have a lightsaber!"
But from a different direction: In Saga, at least, Jedi shouldn't be a class either. It's a class because people expect it to be (it's Star Wars, after all), maybe, but its abilities could easily have been split apart into other classes, since "The Force" is class-independant anyways.
Honestly, I think "I can make an energy blade from my mind" is a pretty cool hook for a class. They need a bit more to fill out a full 30 levels, but the core is solid.
A pretty cool hook for a character.
But for a class? What do you do with the blade? Is it a secret weapon that you manifest to stab people when they don't expect it (Lurk)? Is it a blade of sheer willpower that you manipulate to gain an advantage in honorable combat (BM)? Is it a projection of your monastic discipline into a spiritual force (monk)? Is it merely a tool, useful just like any other blade (martial class with multiclass feat)? Is it a summoned object that you conjure from the void (swordmage)? Is it a living extension of the world that you shape out of the environment (warden)? Or is it a blade of pure divine will that radiates from your hand to exact righteous punishment (paladin or avenger)?
"I make a blade" is a concept based upon equipment, a tool to be used. Classes are all about how you use your abilities and your tools.
Take one parts Monk, add two parts "reflavoring the Monk's unarmed strike to a manifested energy blade (you need a hand free to use an unarmed strike = you need a hand free to use your energy blade; not to mention you can't be disarmed (or you can, but can easily get it back 1 second later)), and it's already there. No need for any new mechanics or feats or features.
Just use the Bastard Sword/Monk and call it a Katana/Soulknife and be done with it.
But for a class? What do you do with the blade? Is it a secret weapon that you manifest to stab people when they don't expect it (Lurk)?
I think that if the Soulknife comes back, the Lurk will end up being one of it's builds.
But for a class? What do you do with the blade? Is it a secret weapon that you manifest to stab people when they don't expect it (Lurk)?
I think that if the Soulknife comes back, the Lurk will end up being one of it's builds.
Why would you bring back the Soulknife (with all the problems described aready in this thread), when you could bring back the Lurk, which is at least a class concept (even if it amounts to little more than "I'm a Psionic X!", where X = Rogue)?
If anything, I would expect to see a Lurk class, and a Soulknife build. But hey, then we're in the same situation as we were with making it a build (or other option) in other classes.
Though I have a fairly large issue with having the Lurk or the Soulknife take up a full-class-slot in a book - namely, we've already got 3-out-of-4 "Psionic" classes that use (or can use) weapons - as far as I'm concerned, that's too many already. 4th Edition Psionics, while fun, isn't mostly about "The Power of the Mind" - it's about hitting things in the face with a weapon, with a little bit of psychic flair added on.
In short: If you insist on giving me a Lurk, don't make it a PsionicRogue - give it implement powers, give it range, and make it a class that feels psionic.
Give the weapons (-of-the-mind-variety) to one of the classes that already uses weapons.
The way i would do the soulknife if i was making it a class would be to focus on the idea of using psionic energy to create malleable weaponry on the fly.
The soulknife just doesn't using some static old short sword made out of energy, he wields a transitory weapon that constantly shifts to fit the situation. Mechanically the way i would do this would be to have dailies that have some kind of stance-like property that shift the weapon properties of the mindblade for the duration of the encounter. One mindblade form is a "polearm" that might give the soulknife reach and a push 1 effect, while another form is a flaming "axe" that does fire damage and is high crit, while dealing fiery splash damage to adjacent enemies. There are literally thousands of combinations of various mundane weapon properties to put together with along with other special effects (all the status effects, forced movement, splash damage, create local zones, vampiric healing, grant CA, etc....) The overall flavor and mechanics of the class would be distinct from anything else out there because you would constantly be able to shift the actual weapon properties of the weapon (mindblade) from encounter to encounter by using different powers.
What form the mindblade takes would be pure flavor; its the mechanics that matter. This way, we don't have people having to buy separate feats for the axe, heavy blade, polearm and other forms, but only for the mindblade. As for enchantment bonuses, that would use the same ki focus as the assassin.
The soulknife's striker damage could be based on his old 3E Psychic Strike mechanics. Bascially, the soulknife could spend a minor action once per round to infuse extra psychic damage dice on his mindblade. They next time it hits, he can choose to use this extra damage though i can easily imagine a feat or class feature that would allow you to spend a power point to instantly recharge it. It could probably scale similarly to the rogue since it doesn't require CA but still eats up a minor every round.
As for builds, the first 2 could be a defensive and offensive one. The defensive one not only creates a mindblade, but a mindshield as well, while the offensive build creates a big, 2-handed weapon. Powers would have special riders for the different builds, naturally.
IDK, i can think of lots of ways to make this class stand out from what we already have. Reflavoring the monk's damage to be a mindblade is easy, but it seems a lot more boring than what i am looking for.
Say you activate your Pyrokinetic Cleaver daily. Now, for the duration of the encounter your mindblade deal fire damage and you can use an at-will attack that hits one target and then does splash damage to nearby opponents. You get a minor encounter long buff, as well as a nifty new at-will associated with the new weapon form.
[sarcasm]
Oh, hooray, another class based around weapon use.
Even better, another psionic class based around weapon use.
Even more better, another psionic class based around weapon use - only this time, it's even more distanced from the idea of a "psychic" power source.
[/sarcasm]
Now, let me ask you; do we need another Psionic Weapon User, or would this plan be better served with the Elemental classes?
Because on the one hand, you have the entire Power Source of the Mind being crammed into A Bunch Of Guys With Sticks. On the other, you have a dynamic means of melee combat fit for a chaotic and shifting power source that would help make it unique in the face of all the other weapon users (because the last thing we need is for the Elemental defender to still be stuck as a fighter clone).
So yes, there are redundant classes; the Runepriest is a Ki refugee crammed into the Divine source (and probably ALSO should have been elemental, because Rune State would make a fantastic Chaotic Flux ability, alas, too late, too late). This does not mean we should encourage them.
To re-emphasize my previous post:
[sarcasm]
Oh, hooray, another class based around weapon use.
Even better, another psionic class based around weapon use.
Even more better, another psionic class based around weapon use - only this time, it's even more distanced from the idea of a "psychic" power source.
[/sarcasm]
I thought the supposed goal of class design in 4E was to make classes based on what the fluffy concepts dictate, not what best fits with notions of mechanical symmetry. Demanding that the next psi class not use weapons defininitely fits with the later paradigm, not the former, when the class we are refering to was literally based around making a weapon.
While I do think they dropped the ball by making a generic weapon-using psi leader and defender, it really makes sense for a 4E soulknife to use a weapon since thats fairly fundamental to the class. I think there is certainly room for a weapon using/making soulknife along side an implement using leader or defender in the psionic power source.
Right. A sound mechanical concept, which could be used somewhere in the game.
Now, let me ask you; do we need another Psionic Weapon User, or would this plan be better served with the Elemental classes?
I could see a similar concept work for a "chaosblade", and i would totally be cool with that. Really though, i don't care what power source the "energy weapon making" class shows up in because powersource is all fluff anyway. Worrying about how many class of X power source use implements and how many use weapons seems like a pointless focus on mechanical symmetry, IMO. Its all interchangable.
So yes, there are redundant classes; the Runepriest is a Ki refugee crammed into the Divine source (and probably ALSO should have been elemental, because Rune State would make a fantastic Chaotic Flux ability, alas, too late, too late). This does not mean we should encourage them.
This is offtopic but when i saw the runepriest mechanics i instantly thought that if you stripped away the heavy armor and did a simple refluff, you'd have a taoist priest class perfectly fit for a Ki power source. Just look at the 2 runstates for all the powers....they are really yin and yang states!
I thought the supposed goal of class design in 4E was to make classes based on what the fluffy concepts dictate, not what best fits with notions of mechanical symmetry. Demanding that the next psi class not use weapons defininitely fits with the later paradigm, not the former, when the class we are refering to was literally based around making a weapon.
Two things...
1) It's actually to make classes that are mechanically AND flavorfully distinct, at least in theory. That's because if a class has no mechanical shtick, it should be a reflavoring, and if it has no unique flavor, it needs a new paintjob.
2) The demand for non-weapon psi classes IS a fluffy request. Three out of the four current classes for the Power Source of the Mind are melee classes. This is kind of #$%@ed up.
Ergo, it isn't a "mechanical symmetry demands this" request. It is a "Can I have more mind powers, rather than thugs with clubs for my mental power source, please"?
I guess i don''t see why having lame (unpopular?), weapon-based psi classes already in existence should force a semi-popular and conceptually unique weapon-based psi class from existing at all. If there is a unique mechanic in place and there is enough actual demand for the class, i don't see the harm in remaking a legacy weapon-based psionic class that might actually be well received.
But, like i said, i really wouldn't care if the "soulknife" concept gets represented by another powersource though because i don't necessarily buy all the power source fluff in the first place.
Soulknives, like monks, are combat artistes. So they should have Full Discipline powers. However, they should have these powers that compose greater portions of their turns, or compose different parts of their actions. For example, maybe one Full Discipline encounter power has a Minor Technique and an Opportunity Technique. Or a Move technique and an Immediate Interrupt technique.
And they'd function on Wisdom, since that seems to be a common Psionic ability score, having a Strength build and a Dexterity build, since both of those are fashions by which they can more naturally guide their attacks. The key is to give them a lot of multi-attacks (we haven't seen many multi-attackers since Rangers and Tempest Fighters hit the scene). But in as unorthadox a way as possible within the confines of Full Discipline.
A level 29 Daily with the Full Discipline keyword could be, for example, composed of a Standard Technique, a Move Technique, a Minor Technique, an Opportunity Technique, and an Immediate Technique, and be some sort of incredible chain of attacks. It'd have to be awesome and designed with a fair bit of freedom, so it doesn't essentially steal your turn and dictate your actions to the letter with that power.
Maybe a Soulknife could have power points and dailies that are Full Discipline. Y'know, blend the flavours, which is how a Soulknife sort of feels.
Why would you bring back the Soulknife (with all the problems described aready in this thread), when you could bring back the Lurk, which is at least a class concept (even if it amounts to little more than "I'm a Psionic X!", where X = Rogue)?
The Lurk was almost completely Psionic X, while the Soulknife was more of "let's make something that's more unique that's psionic". The fact that it got promoted to a full class from 3.0 to 3.5 shows that it was something the designers really liked, the same designer that's responsible for a bunch of 4e psionic classes too. I don't know with certainty whether or not they will make a class out of it, but there's plenty of things in its favour.
And the thing is whether or not something becomes a class, is not up to you, or me, or anyone else on this board. It's ultimately up to what the designers want in the end.
As for builds, the first 2 could be a defensive and offensive one. The defensive one not only creates a mindblade, but a mindshield as well, while the offensive build creates a big, 2-handed weapon. Powers would have special riders for the different builds, naturally.
Well my theory, since all we have is theories, speculation and a lot of arguing, is that they could have one build that's basically the Lurk. And another build would basically be the Soulbow prestige class focused on ranged and area attacks. A third build would be about shaping the mindblade into a variety of things including shields and reach attacks.
To re-emphasize my previous post:
[sarcasm]
Oh, hooray, another class based around weapon use.
Even better, another psionic class based around weapon use.
Even more better, another psionic class based around weapon use - only this time, it's even more distanced from the idea of a "psychic" power source.
[/sarcasm]
I thought the supposed goal of class design in 4E was to make classes based on what the fluffy concepts dictate, not what best fits with notions of mechanical symmetry. Demanding that the next psi class not use weapons defininitely fits with the later paradigm, not the former, when the class we are refering to was literally based around making a weapon.
Dragoncat already said this for me, but yeah, I'm talking about it in a "fluff" manner. Weapon vs. Implement doesn't matter to me, mechanically, one bit. Weapon vs. Implement matters a lot to me, on the flavor side of things.
I can see what your saying as far as psychics with beatsticks, but i don't think future classes should bear the penalty for a **** up in the design of the inititial psionic line-up.
If we're ignoring the actual reality of what we've got, then I should go start campaigning for a Kineticist (Augmenting Striker), Dreamshaper (Summoning Defender), and Telepath/Empath (Augmenting Leader).
I guess i don''t see why having lame (unpopular?), weapon-based psi classes already in existence should force a semi-popular and conceptually unique weapon-based psi class from existing at all. If there is a unique mechanic in place and there is enough actual demand for the class, i don't see the harm in remaking a legacy weapon-based psionic class that might actually be well received.
The thing is, I think it would equally well received as an option or build for a different class. I don't think the soulknife class was "a semi-popular and conceptually unique weapon-based psi class" - it's just the mind blade. Give a mind-blade to... really whatever, and have a "soulknife" build or paragon path, and I think you'll find it equally well received (if not more so) - except by a few folks in this thread . And we leave room for other concepts in the power source.
Why would you bring back the Soulknife (with all the problems described aready in this thread), when you could bring back the Lurk, which is at least a class concept (even if it amounts to little more than "I'm a Psionic X!", where X = Rogue)?
The Lurk was almost completely Psionic X, while the Soulknife was more of "let's make something that's more unique that's psionic". The fact that it got promoted to a full class from 3.0 to 3.5 shows that it was something the designers really liked, the same designer that's responsible for a bunch of 4e psionic classes too. I don't know with certainty whether or not they will make a class out of it, but there's plenty of things in its favour.
There's plenty not in favor of it too, though. By all accounts, the Wilder, which was a full class, has become a not-class - I don't think the Soulknife deserves any better treatment than the Wilder.
And the thing is whether or not something becomes a class, is not up to you, or me, or anyone else on this board. It's ultimately up to what the designers want in the end.
Yes, but like adding "That's in your opinion" to other peoples' posts, that doesn't actually affect the discussion. Because it would negate the discussion (and we all know it anyways).
That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Soulknife class - because I think the designers like to make bad decisions.
I can see what your saying as far as psychics with beatsticks, but i don't think future classes should bear the penalty for a **** up in the design of the inititial psionic line-up.
If we're ignoring the actual reality of what we've got, then I should go start campaigning for a Kineticist (Augmenting Striker), Dreamshaper (Summoning Defender), and Telepath/Empath (Augmenting Leader).
I'm with the Frito.
The next Psionic classes they design should start with original ideas. No grid filling (B.M.), no cramming old ideas into a mold (Intellect bomb as a melee-based power requiring you to hit someone with a stick? I've slapped people with a raw trout for less), no beholding to anything. They should be things that begin with the phrase "You know something awesome and psychic and new?"
I'm with the Frito.
Me too.
As for the idea of the striker damage being like 3.5's psychic strike, it might be underpowered if it were minor action each round to get the extra damage for one attack. Unless it also gives, say, a small bonus (+1) to the next attack roll. Or something small that lasts after the psychic strike is expended. I'd prefer my old idea about a damage bonus whenever you augment an attack. Except that makes the unaugmented at-wills (and dailies) less useful. Unless we rolled them into one, giving it a normal striker damage source, and have that damage get boosted when you augment.
), since we already know your positions (to be fair, mine too) - so hold off on your responses for a bit, please?Anywho, to play devil's advocate a bit, what would people (who want a soulknife) think of the following as a full-class version of it?
- Class's main emphasis is mobility, speed, and striking - but each build approaches things in a different way.
- Four builds (at the moment), drawing inspiration from much of the content of this (and other) threads...
- First Build: Bladewind Soulknife
- This build emphasizes mobility and speed. Thematically it draws inspiration from the 3.5 SK "bladewind" ability - its mind blade flows and changes like emotion itself. Its attack powers emphasize quick movements and attacks that affect multiple nearby foes - many blast and burst powers. No "two weapon" attacks per se, but frequently multiple fast attacks that may be with one weapon, or may presume two blades. Secondary Wis.
- Second Build: Mindrender Soulknife [for lack of a better name].
- This build also features strong movement capabilities, but it's true emphasis is drawn from the "imbed power/sever life/knife to the soul" abilities of the 3.0/3.5 SK. This build channels psionic power through its strikes, attacking both body and mind. Its attack powers often inflict statuses - both minor and potent - using melee attacks. Most of its attacks are single-target, but it has some multi-target options (usually in the form of several quick - but discrete - attacks). Like the first build, there aren't any "two weapon" attacks per se, but multiple fast strikes may be with one or two blades. Secondary Con.
- Third Build: Lurking Soulknife
- Rather than fast movement, this build focuses on stealthy movement. It is the first of the two "skirmishing" builds for this SK - it can use either melee or ranged attacks with most of its powers, and equally well. Many of its powers focus on striking the target, then fading out of his (or other foes' as well) perceptions to prepare another strike. Less mobile than the two melee-primary builds, but it should make up for it with its ranged options. Secondary Int.
- Fourth Build: Thoughtarrow Soulknife [for lack of a better name].
- This build features the least mobility, but the strongest ranged options. Like the third build, it is a "skirmishing" option - most of its attacks can be used either as melee or ranged attacks, equally well. Its powers focus on inflicting statuses (much like build 2) - but at greater range. It also includes many "area effect" options - mostly in the form of a single attack with a "splash" rider (something happens to creatures adjacent to the target on a hit), but with many burst attacks as well. Secondary Wis.
Anywho, for those who want a soulknife class, do these hit most of the builds you would look for? Would you be satisfied with this class? What are your thoughts on the builds themselves?
And remember, anti-SK-as-a-full-class crowd, I don't want to hear from you all yet - I know what you think, and you might ruin the fun.
Or maybe folks are just tired of me.
If we're ignoring the actual reality of what we've got, then I should go start campaigning for a Kineticist (Augmenting Striker), Dreamshaper (Summoning Defender), and Telepath/Empath (Augmenting Leader).
If that is what you're looking for, why not? Like i said before, the game is full of copycat concepts. A lot of people felt the sorcerer was pretty superfulous, conceptually, in the face of the warlock and the wizard. We somehow ended up with 3 Str-based, light-armored, 2-weapon fighting guys. We had a heavy armored, weapon-using, divine leader buffer and called him "cleric" and then got a heavy armored, weapon-using, divine leader buffer and called him "priest". The main thing that separates these redundancies from the soulknife is that there really isn't a class that creates different weapons out of thin air already out there.
The thing is, I think it would equally well received as an option or build for a different class. I don't think the soulknife class was "a semi-popular and conceptually unique weapon-based psi class" - it's just the mind blade.
Er...but you can use this logic to apply to pretty much anything in the game. You can give a sword to any arcane class and then there is no need for the swordmage, right? The monk is just an unarmed strike, so we can give that to anyone and toss the whole class out. Every weapon-based class fights, so there goes the fighter. Just because you can roll things together, it doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of design space for something unique to exist on it own.
There's plenty not in favor of it too, though. By all accounts, the Wilder, which was a full class, has become a not-class - I don't think the Soulknife deserves any better treatment than the Wilder.
So the wilder, which was just a psion with overchannel tacked on, deserves to be a class more than a class that has a more unique flavor?
- First Build: Bladewind Soulknife
- Second Build: Mindrender Soulknife [for lack of a better name].
- Third Build: Lurking Soulknife
- Fourth Build: Thoughtarrow Soulknife [for lack of a better name].
Anywho, for those who want a soulknife class, do these hit most of the builds you would look for? Would you be satisfied with this class? What are your thoughts on the builds themselves?
I like these builds. One thing i'm trying to keep in mind when thinking about how this class could work is to capitalize on the flavor of changing the nature of the weapon and capitalizing on weapon properties.
Blade Travel: Primary attack - throw mindblade, effect teleport to square adjacent to target, secondary attack possible.
Black Blade of Disaster (original a Wizard Spell name): At least one necrotic damage and spend a healing surge.
Mental Slice/Mind Stab: A bunch of daze + psychic damage attacks.
Misfortune Blade: An inflict penalty to saves (equal to secondary ability mod) till end of next turn strike.
Blade Whip: Reach 3 melee attack, knock prone to non-adjacent, extra damage to adjacent.
Strength of My Enemy: Inflict weakness to target and gain bonuses yourself.
Seeking Blade: Immediate Reaction, attack when enemy attacked by ally, but lose standard action, unless augmented, similar to the Battlemind Lightning Rush.
Blade of Vengeance: Can be used as an immediate reaction when ally is bloodied or reduced to 0 hp.
Mental Spear: Mind blade becomes lengthens as you throw it and it penetrates target and sticks into ground. Ranged attack, either immobilizes or punishes target for moving forward.
Dancing Blade: A version of your mind blade flies around, Conjuration, perhaps the at-will augmented equivalent or Mordenkainen's sword.
Brilliant Blade: Radiant damage + blind
Blade of Emnity: Psychic Damage, and an adjacent creature attacks target as a free action.
Triple Blade of Doom: One psychic damage attack vs. three defenses, which blinds, dazes and immobilizes an opponent, save against each.
Solid Strike: Force damage + massive push.
Parrying Mind Blades: Multiple copies of mind blades float through air parrying incoming attack. Temporary AC bonus.
Vanish and Appear: Strike multiple enemies with your mind blade and move quickly. A close blast effect with teleportation/shift to any square in or adjacent to blast.
Blade of Deception: Psychic damage and become invisible to target(s).
Afterwound blade: Mind blade appears again inside opponent you just hit, Inflicting automatic damage on someone you just hit.
More Powers I can think of:
These all look like great Battlemind powers to me.
Give Battlemind some alternate class features that replaces heavy armor prof for a speed bonus or something, give em a new Int based Study that gives them a mindblade, and there you have it; the SoulKnife.
Is *Battle* + *Mind* really all that different from *Mind* + *Blade*?
Give Battlemind some alternate class features that replaces heavy armor prof for a speed bonus or something, give em a new Int based Study that gives them a mindblade, and there you have it; the SoulKnife.
The 3E Soulknife was a striker, so making it a build for a defender class would seem rather odd.
KoboldAvenger, I'm mildly surprised that you, for one, never responded to my proposed builds.
The "mindrender" has what I felt was common abilities for all builds, as the Soulknife sort of felt to me like a class that would be like a melee/close range warlock in terms of inflicting bad stuff over pure damage. But I that the first one should definitely emphasize the "flashy powers". But those two are quite open and generic enough, they'd probably be good first builds, as the builds that come after for just about any class there is, starts getting more niche.
- First Build: Bladewind Soulknife
- Second Build: Mindrender Soulknife [for lack of a better name].
- Third Build: Lurking Soulknife
- Fourth Build: Thoughtarrow Soulknife [for lack of a better name].
First, the reveal:
Bladewind Soulknife - I described the (Centered Breath) Monk.
Mindrender Soulknife - I described the (Speed of Thought) Battlemind.
Lurking Soulknife - I described the (Shadowy) Rogue.
Thoughtarrow Soulknife - I described the (Spiritbond) Seeker.
Now, the responses:
Well, greatfrito, that looks pretty good. I'm mostly interested in the first two options myself. They sound like how I think a soulknife should feel.
Great, me too. Good thing we already have those two options, right?
Definitely sounds distinct from a monk myself.
Well, one is the Monk. The other is the Battlemind.
I like these builds.
Awesome. Good thing we've already got them all, right?
The "mindrender" has what I felt was common abilities for all builds, as the Soulknife sort of felt to me like a class that would be like a melee/close range warlock in terms of inflicting bad stuff over pure damage. But I that the first one should definitely emphasize the "flashy powers". But those two are quite open and generic enough, they'd probably be good first builds, as the builds that come after for just about any class there is, starts getting more niche.
Right. It would work. Good thing we have both of those original builds. They're the Monk. And the Battlemind.
EDIT: Also, Soylent Green is made of people! PEOPLE!
/snip
Greatfrito uses Dramatic Reveal!
It's Super Effective!
Greatfrito uses Dramatic Reveal!
If only I'd have had a bus. We could have all chanted "Move! That! Bus!"
(Though I've never seen that show - only the episode of Its Always Sunny in Philidelphia" where they tried to duplicate that show.)
The discussions about the Elemental Power Source in another thread have pointed out you can never have a class that seems completely original from another class already there... No matter which way you put it.
Telepathic Psion? Just waitaminute are you describing a Cunning Bard, an Illusionist Wizard or a Feylock?
Ardent? Or was that an Inspiring Warlord that was just described?
It's all about packaging them differently. And the key to that is finding a certain niche that stands out and packaging them other strong concepts that have possibly been reused before. Which is how the above examples stand separate from their predecessors, and how a Soulknife would stand separate from other classes and builds already there.
The discussions about the Elemental Power Source in another thread have pointed out you can never have a class that seems completely original from another class already there... No matter which way you put it.
Then they aren't trying hard enough.
Never Settle.
It's not enough to allow a redundant creation just because there has been another creation that was redundant. It is not enough to say that mediocrity is sufficient. It is not enough to say that a gimmick is worth an entire class just because it previously existed in some shabby shape. And it is not enough to restrain creativity because the path already trodden is convenient.
Never settle for anything short of creative excellence. If something cannot achieve it, take it to the anvil and hammer it into glory, or discard the slag and start anew.
It's not enough to allow a redundant creation just because there has been another creation that was redundant. It is not enough to say that mediocrity is sufficient. It is not enough to say that a gimmick is worth an entire class just because it previously existed in some shabby shape. And it is not enough to restrain creativity because the path already trodden is convenient.
QFT
greatfrito, you're a hero in my book.
I've been watching this thread for a while. here are a few ways that a soulknife can be handled.
- A full class.
- A multiclass only class, like the spell scarred.
- A paragon path.
- A single feat.
In all, I think 2 might be the best option.
Chances are it'll be in the PHB4.
Monk is and will be the psionic striker. If there's another, great. But don't separate Monk simply because of mechanical differences. It's very thematically psionic.
Out of interest, since the Monk is a Ki refugee and never the original psionic concept striker, does anyone know what was originally planned?
Chances are it'll be in the PHB4.
As we have no indication as to how far in development the psionic classes were when the Monk was moved over, it is entirely possible that there was no fourth psionic class at the time the monk was moved over.
However, it looks like we'll be agreeing to disagree.
So if you wanted a character who went outside of his build focus, you either need a soulknife class, or you need to multiclass and hybrid and still fall short of one concept.
Or you have a single feat.
Apply feat to Assassin, Monk, Battlemind, Swordmage, Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger, depending on your style of Soulknife in question. All burst powers are now bladewinds. All ranged attacks are throwing the soulblade. All status effects are now "special blades".
Ta-da! Soulknives.
- equally viable in melee and at range. Classes that can do that:
- sorcerer (mostly dragon)
- ranger (I've heard MP2 allows this)
- druid
- swordmage (prefers melee)
- cleric (but ranged uses Wis, melee uses Str)
- rogue
- artificer (melee relies on weapon, ranged usually on implement)
- but note that some of those are at a stretch, or prefer one offer a few options for the other. So let's boil it down to sorcerer, ranger, druid, and rogue. Feel free to call me on this choice, since I haven't explained my reasoning (or even formalized it to myself. But it feels right)
- able to pull tricks with weapon of choice. Fluff-wise, I'm talking about having the mind blade morph and adapt. This includes tricks such as 'porting the weapon between hands, switching from knife to fullblade form, turning it into a whip to trip someone up before stabbing them, and throwing the blade and having it then snare them like a net. This is obviously tricky to find an analog for, but the deceptive nature fits the rogue. But if I mean supreme adaptability, I can't think of a class that does that. The best comparison I have is to the resourceful warlord - who can choose a couple of benefits, depending on which best fits the situation. That'd actually be a neat new focus for the soulknife, and something we don't have yet. But to try to list something, here's the classes that come close:
- rogue
- resourceful warlord
- monk (centered breath)
- seeker (ranged only)
- fighter. Those powers from that dragon article that gave you different benefits depending on weapon are a great example. I could actually see a soulknife/fighter hybrid really playing this aspect up: make a mindweapon, fight with it, then change its form as needed to gain new benefits.
- runepriest (rune states)
- able to attack mind as well as body
- battlemind, as greatfrito noted.
- ardent
- fey pact warlock (ranged only)
- teleporting. This is more optional, but I remember hearing quite a few people note that they'd like to see the elocator rolled into the soulknife. I like the image. So if you do add this to what you want in the soulknife, you get:
- swordmage
- fey pact warlock
No class met all those requirements. So, unless I missed something on my list, no class can currently fill the role of soulknife. Sure, things can be reflavored to capture some aspects, but then I have to give up on something else. If it helps, let me describe how my soulknife fights. As the battle starts, SK keeps his distance, throwing his inexhaustible supply of blades from afar, occasionally teleporting or runnign with superhuman speed to keep his distance. The poor fools couldn't seem to get it through their thick skulls that these mindblades are only blades in a metaphorical sense, never expecting them to land short and explode, transform into writhing tentacles, or change course midair. But he can't keep this up forever. After softening his foes up, SK summons another mind blade and switches its form into a bastard sword, then charges into the fray. He may not be able to take a hit as well as his buddy in full plate over there, but he doesn't have to. A stunned opponent doesn't hit back, and SK stuns a lot of his foes, since his mind blade breaks mind and spirit as well as body. But his enemies' leader proves to have an iron will, and that method just won't work. Barely dodging a blow that would rend his head from his shoulders, SK counters by turning his blade into a whip, tripping up his foe. He then splits his mind blade in two, forming two short swords and settling into a stance ready to parry. With a sigh, he wishes he had learned how to shape a shield. It really is better for defending than an extra blade.
I'll admit that his tossing blades sound a lot like a seeker, and the melee stuff could fit a battlemind. But why should I need a hybrid seeker/battlemind to play this concept? And then there's the issue of some powers being ranged only and others melee only, when what I want is a bunch of powers that have the option of being melee or ranged. (Currently only ranger and a few artificer powers do that - at least to my knowledge).
Also, I've stumbled across some unique mechanics that the soulknife could have. Taking a page from the fighter and the powers that have extra effects if you're using a certain kind of weapon, let the soulknife choose what kind of weapon the mind blade is mimicking. You can change this as a minor action. And some powers have extra riders if your mind blade is in the right form. Or to make it simpler, the mind blade has 3 forms: dagger, sword, and fullblade, let's call them. Sword is the base damage (d8), while dagger is reduced (d6) and off-hand, while fullblade is increased (d10) and 2-handed. And some powers have riders depending on your mind blade being in a certain form. Others might require a certain form. Furthermore, make adaptability a built-in part of the soulknife. The resourceful warlord (and one dragon article) gave the warlord some powers that let you pick one of two benefits to grant an ally. So give the soulknife a bunch of powers that let you pick one of two benefits.
I believe I've just demonstrated that, while the soulknife does do things that other classes can do, it is a new mixture, doing things that several classes can do (and not doing other things that they can do - although I haven't shown that). And I've also shown that there's unique things you can give a soulknife that no other class currently has - from both a fluff and mechanics perspective. Do we yet have a "master of adaptability" class? 'Cuz that's one thing I've made the soulknife.
-Equally viable in melee and at range.
-Able to pull tricks with weapon of choice.
-Able to attack mind as well as body
-Teleporting.
Swordmage.
Ranged and Implement attacks like Falcon's Mark, Blade Bolt, Snake Strike, Aegis Bolt, Darksword Bolt, and Sword Chaser Assault. Many of which literally carry the flavor "You throw your sword at somebody".
Can use the blade in bursts, blasts, ranged attacks, dancing forms, pretty much anything you can imagine.
Can attack AC, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will.
Can teleport all over the place.
Add a single feat that allows the swordmage to conjure a blade out of any implement they can wield (or a utility power that transforms the properties of a weapon from one to another), and you have exactly what you asked for.
-Equally viable in melee and at range.
-Able to pull tricks with weapon of choice.
-Able to attack mind as well as body
-Teleporting.
Swordmage.
Ranged and Implement attacks like Falcon's Mark, Blade Bolt, Snake Strike, Aegis Bolt, Darksword Bolt, and Sword Chaser Assault. Many of which literally carry the flavor "You throw your sword at somebody".
Can use the blade in bursts, blasts, ranged attacks, dancing forms, pretty much anything you can imagine.
Can attack AC, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will.
Can teleport all over the place.
Add a single feat that allows the swordmage to conjure a blade out of any implement they can wield (or a utility power that transforms the properties of a weapon from one to another), and you have exactly what you asked for.
That did occur to me while creating this list. And with simple reflavoring, the swordbond becomes a mindblade. However, you'd have to nitpick with power selection, because the swordmage has few psychic attacks and a lot of fire/cold/lightning attacks that don't fit. Sure, DM fiat can change the damage type and make it work, but there also remains the challenge of coming up with new flavor text for every single power. Not ideal, but doable. However, go back to my description of what I meant by "able to pull tricks with weapon of choice." Some of it matches the swordmage, other bits don't. I proposed that adaptability is a huge part of what I meant. I even described the sort of mechanics that demonstrate the adaptability I mean. The swordmage doesn't have that. So the swormage only half-fills one of my four requirements. Plus, the swordmage, while ranged capable, is still better suited for melee and close bursts/blasts. A swordmage doesn't handle the soulknife very well if somebody wanted to play a throwing specialist. But then again, the throwing specialist could be handled by the seeker class (except for the teleporting). But doesn't it say something, that if you wanted to play a soulknife you'd have to change class to switch from melee focus to ranged focus when one of my requirements was ease of switching between melee and range? The more I think about it, the more I realize that most soulknife powers ought to be "Melee or Ranged" as opposed to half being "Melee" and the other half being "Ranged."
But thanks Dragoncat for pointing out what would be a viable substitute until (and if) I get an actual soulknife class to do what I want.
1) A lot of the tricks you describe are basically flavor. "I project a net of force that restrains my foe" and "I change my blade into a net and throw it to retrain my foe" basically turn out the same, mechanically speaking. Likewise, a ranged attack could easily be a whip strike or a thrown dart. Heck, the Aegis of Ensnarement's "pull target to you" can literally be a Scorpion style "Get Over Here!" attack.
But doesn't it say something, that if you wanted to play a soulknife you'd have to change class to switch from melee focus to ranged focus when one of my requirements was ease of switching between melee and range?
Not really.
If I want to play a dedicated soldier, I'm going to need to choose if he is a fighter or a ranger for sword and shield or archery. If I want to play a shapechanger, I'm going to need to pick Warden or Druid if I want partial or full transformations. If I want to play a warrior of the faith, knight errant and lurking slayer will force me to choose Paladin or Avenger. Archetypes get split, and split often, and sometimes it is better this way; because I have different options for different styles of shapechangers, or holy warriors, or soldiers, rather than cramming them into one class.
Speaking of? I think we are underestimating just how awesome a single feat soulknife would be. Consider the following.
Let's say you had a feat. "Grants training in Ki Foci. You may choose a simple or military weapon. Whenever you have a free hand, you may choose to make an attack as if you were wielding that weapon. You may apply the Ki Focus stats to that roll" Or some text like that, something that lets you attack without a weapon (but your unarmed strike is still the same, to prevent Brawler Fighter shenanigans).
The result?
Well, you have Swordmages who can summon weapons out of the air, conjuring Black Blades of Disaster, Mordekai's Swords, or Edges of Oblivion.
You have Wardens who can bind Totemic forms to them, growing claws and fangs and schythe tails and quills, or whatever they wish to flavor their transformations.
You have monastic Soulknives who hurl through the air, striking with blade winds.
You have Paladins who can summon a radiant blade of pure splendor, a literal incarnation of their faith to cleave through all that stands before their god.
You have Rogues who can stash weapons anywhere. ANYWHERE.
You have Battleminds who can shape mental force into a literal hammer of will.
You have Sorcerers who can tear out a tooth and transform it into a dragon's fang to strike.
You have Warlocks who can manifest the dagger that drew the blood that signed their pact, no matter the location.
You have Bards who can call the swords of legend to recreate their sagas.
There are thousands of different souls, and a single feat would allow each and every one to have a different stabbing device of choice. The knife of the soul would benefit anyone and everyone, not just a single class.
What it boils down to for me is that it's really all just about the energy blade and nothing else, and IMO if it's just the weapon you're looking for, then we don't need a whole new class for it.
Also, energy weapons seem like a general enough concept that I would rather not have one class hold a monopoly on; why just limit yourselves to Mindblades, why not Spellblades, or Spiritbows?
I'll give ground and admit that reflavoring can do a lot. As you've shown, a swordmage could do a lot of what I want to do. But it can't do the "split one blade into two" thing (although a magic item could; still, it's ineffective for a soulknife). However, I think of the battlerager fighter versus the barbarian, and realize they both do the "I get really mad while fighting and gain strength from that rage" thing. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. For one, they fill different roles. Thus someone who wants to play someone who gets mad while fighting has two tools available: one that does better to fill the "indestructible" side, and the other to better fill the massive damage side. Also, the battlerager fighter allows for a less magical barbarian. Yes, there's a good degree of overlap. But that doesn't mean it has to preclude their ability to coexist. I don't think anything bad has come of their overlap (no more than three classes allowing for a TWF build). But I guess I'm getting into the field of "it's been done before," which doesn't actually prove it's a good idea. But can you show that it was a bad idea to have overlap in the past?
And I noticed that you again overlooked one of my points - the one thing that I want the soulknife to do that currently nothing else can do. What about adaptability? Imagine that section for new classes that reads "Play a [class] if you want..." And tell me: do any of them have on that list "to be able to adapt your tactics to the changing flow of battle"? I'll admit it can be just a lot of roleplaying fluff. Just like you could achieve a rogue by playing a ranger who does a lot of sneaking and backstabbing (especially if you use MP2 to get that melee Dex ranger). But the rogue gives you extra damage specifically for backstabbing. And I'm asking the soulknife to give you powers that make you adaptable. Able to say, choose between having your mind blade trip up or bind when in whip form, or to vanish in an explosion (either blinding or creating a burst). Able to make the mind blade tougher and absorb a hard blow, or flexible, and redirect it. I see in the fighter, warlord, and runepriest a hint of what I'm looking for. They have powers that give you a choice between a couple of riders. But they're seriously the wrong class for this concept. I want the soulknife to be able to say "ok, that isn't working. Let's try this." You haven't addressed that in your last few posts.
What about adaptability?
Tons of classes are extremely adaptable.
Rogues can switch from ranged to melee, from flanking with an ally to lurking in the darkness, from whirling across the battlefield to hunkering down in a defensive posture. Rangers, with their new marauder and hunter styles, can seemlessly shift from ranged to melee and back again, sliding effortlessly to the most advantageous method. Avengers can pepper a target with radiant wrath, then teleport across the room to strike a foe forced out of position. Wizards can yo-yo a target with expelling blasts and pulling lures. Adaptability can be anything from transformation (nothing adapts like a Druid) to a wide selection of power types (Bards and Artificers say hello!).
And the icing on the cake? With the aforementioned Ki Focus-granting feat, adaptable classes become MORE adaptable, because Ki Foci let them bring many different weapons to the field. So your fighter might switch from his sword to his polearm without any enchantment modifier penalizing him, thus changing his battle tactics dramatically. Or the rogue might have a knife, a garrote, and a sling, all of which see use in a single fight. And you might just have the Weaponmaster style character who brings a thousand arms to battle, switching weapons constantly with the flick of the wrist. ;)
But if that feat were a multiclass feat, you couldn't have special weapon proficiencies alongside it, like whip training or bola mastery. And that....would not be awesome.
Wow, you're right about just how awesome that feat could be. Of course, if the soulknife were a class, that feat would be the multiclass feat.
If only taking one feat is good enough for those concepts, it should be good enough for the Soulknife concept.
Doesn't matter what was planned, when it was that far back.
Monk is and will be the psionic striker. If there's another, great. But don't separate Monk simply because of mechanical differences. It's very thematically psionic.
I'm not seperating the Monk because it's mechanics are different.
I don't think you would dispute the fact that that the monk was not planned as psionic originally.
It has been changed (and changed very well) to be psionic but given that strikers seem to be the developers favourite role, it would be highly surprising if something else hadn't been originally outlined for the the role before Ki's demise.
As I recall, there were plenty of complaints the Monk wasn't in the PHB2 and given the limitations on the number of classes this time, you wouldn't get 2 psionic strikers, so the Monk was always going to be the one included.
IMO, I think that there's likely work done on another psionic striker and it's a good probablity for the PHB4.
I don't dispute that I could be dead wrong but if I was a gambler, I'd like my odds.
What about adaptability?
Tons of classes are extremely adaptable.
I like your feat. I'm liking it more as I get time to think about it.
I think, on the point of adaptability, you missed the Monk.
Take the at-wills. (And only the ones we have right now.) Here's how they look for my soulknife...
Crane's Wings
1d10+Dex + Push. The "mind blade" takes the form of a maul.
Dancing Cobra
1d10+Dex + Extra damage with Op attack. I leave it as a blade for this one. (But it could be anything.)
Dragon's Tail
1d6+Dex + Prone. The "mind blade" takes the form of a flail, whipping the target from his feet.
Five Storms
Close burst. The at-will "blade storm" power.
But, on to your feat. I'm thinking you could do something like the Arcane familiar feats - but perhaps with a few different access points. Maybe one to give a blade, one to give a "psicrystal" (or its equivalent), and then no matter the base "item", it could get a passive/active (whatever that means) benefit.
I always saw the Soulknife role as a striker so I'm certainly happier with the adaption of the Monk than that of the Battlemind or Swordmage.
That being said, is Dex the right primary abilty for someone who creates weapons of force with their mind? I would have said Wis or Cha.
Sorry greatfrito, no matter how you twist classes to fit, I'm never going to be entirely happy with an adaption of what we've got available at present, because whilst it's good, it's not the dream.
I'm sure it's my loss, but I'll keep hoping for a full class until the psionic handbook or PHB4 prove me out of luck.
I do admire your creative lateral thinking though.
IMO, I think that there's likely work done on another psionic striker and it's a good probablity for the PHB4.
Then I sincerely hope it is more interesting than the Soulknife.
Aye, that may have earned me some furrowed eyebrows of annoyance, but let me elaborate. The Soulknife's problem is that at the end of the day, he's a gimmick. He makes a blade. He makes small blades, large blades, thin blades, thick blades, knife blades, sword blades, hammery blades, polearm blades, keen blades, blunt blades, sickle blades, whip blades, trident blades, fan blades, parrying blades, throwing blades, sausage blades, blades with hooks, blades with spikes, blades with knobs on the end, blades with cream and sugar, and once in a while, blades with blades on them.
And then he does Blade Things with them.
We have people who do Blade Things. They are the Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Warlord, Paladin, Avenger, Cleric, Runepriest, Swordmage, Artificer, Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Warden, Barbarian, Assassin, Ardent, Battlemind, and Monk. They do sneaky blade things, valiant blade things, tactical blade things, skirmishing blade things, righteous blade things, unrighteous blade things, magic blade things, mystical blade things, primal blade things, shadowy blade things, empathic blade things, rallying blade things, demoralizing blade things, monastic blade things, precision blade things, brutal blade things, defensive blade things, offensive blade things, balanced blade things, unbalanced blade things, and sometimes downright bastardly blade things.
And at the end of the day, a simple feat makes any one of them equally capable of doing Soulknife things as what some claim requires thirty levels and twenty pages of a class.
An intuitive soulknife is an Avenger. A raging soulknife might be a Barbarian or a Warden. A sneaky Soulknife would be a Rogue or Assassin. A noble soulknife could be a Paladin, Fighter, Cleric, or Battlemind. A mystical soulknife might be a Swordmage or Monk. You can even go as far as to have a Soulknife who fights alongside his dancing blade shape.....a Ranger with a reflavored beast companion, or a Soulknife who summons ethereal armor alongside his weapon.....a Warden who's polymorphing gets reflavored, or a Soulknife who's blade is so potent that it can barely be contained....a Sorcerer with the Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat and single target attacks, or a Soulknife who's blade is so ephemeral, its whipping fury cuts the soul instead of the body.....a Warlock using a Pact Dagger as a whip handle.
The problem with the Soulknife is that we don't need it.
We don't need it to fulfill the theme, because the theme is so narrow it can be accomplished with a mere feat. We don't need it to fulfill a role, because it promises a mobile, agile psionic melee character, who will be totally not the same as the Monk, a mobile, agile psionic melee character. We don't need it to fulfill crunch, because it cannot fill thirty levels and twenty pages without stealing from another class. We don't need it for new tactics, because three out of four psionic classes we currently have are melee, and the Soulknife promises Yet Another Beatstick. And we don't need it to waste one of the Psionic Source's two remaining possible classes (remember, Arcane, the most numerous, has six. Divine and Primal have five.) with a waste of space.
Psionics has barely touched upon Precognition, Psychoportation, Chronoportation, the Power of Dreams, Meteacreativity, Psychic Chirurgery, Hypercognition, Insanity....so many tropes that are Big, Important Themes, things that can be blended together into a magnificent mold of theme and crunch. Things that are worth having a class for.
Things like an Oracle, master of seeing future and past, can look into someone's soul or perceive the possibilities that unfold as the world turns. One of the most common of all psychic concepts, deserving its own place amidst the world.
Things like the Elocater, masters of space and time, psychoportation and chronomanipulation. Someone who binds his mind to the entire cosmos, realizing the great secret that connects everything, and through his brilliance, manifest the world as he desires. The battlefield is his gametable; moving friend and foe as desired, conjuring new toys or moving the entire sphere of influence to a new location, or just stopping time to consider the moment the ultimate secret, that all is one. Or if he is too close to telekinesis, merge him with the realm of Dreams, and create the Lucid, who gently unfolds reality from the confines of physical laws, manifesting the creative brilliance and unshackled wonder of dreams into the real world. One who can create from nothing, shape everything around her, move with a thought and vanish and reappear on a whim, a laughing whimsy musing on the wonders of the mind, playing with reality like a doll. Imaginary friends are so much more potent with psionic potential, you know.
Things like the Null, those gifted with the ability to Cancel Out. It is amazing how often this trope emerges in psychic casts; the person who can negate the power of others. With the unified Power mechanic of 4th edition, a devoted Counter character would work fantastically well, and Psi has plenty of thematic history with the subject. A character who can dispel, subvert, dampen, dismiss, manipulate, or even steal the power of others, the brain lock and the mind wipe and the backlash, that which engulfs others' glory in a dark void of inability.
If we have only two Psionic classes left, let them be the stuff of greatness, things that inspire wonder and zeal, the kinds of classes that people will want to play for ages to come. Let them be awesome.
The Soulknife does not offer this.
Dragoncat, you are my hero.
You say that the Soulknife is a gimmick, and that it shouldn't be a class because of that. But that can be used that to describe all new classes. You say that we already have people who do things with blades, but that exact same argument can be put forth for any weapon based class. by your logic we should not have the Avenger, Barbarian, Swordmage, etc. because we already had classes that did stuff with blades. The simple fact is we don't need any new classes. By refluffing the PHB1 classes you can get anything you need. We get new classes to expand our mechanical options and to give inspiration. A soulknife style class can provide interesting new options and provide new inspiration. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean it is a bad idea. Personally, I am never going to touch any implement only class ever. I like swords and every character I make will always use a melee weapon primarily. That doesn't mean that the implement only classes are worthless because they are mechanically interesting to other people.
You say that a soulknife can be acciomplished with a single feat. Well I doubt that a single feat could accomplish all that I have thought of for a a soulknife style class. However were there to be a soulknife style class made, one of the multiclass featts would certainly provide for the ability ot make the blade, so that would allow for your "single feat" idea to be made at the ame time.
You put forth an oracle idea? Seeing the future is simply a gimmick that should be available to anyone. What about the martial character so well trained that he can read the body language of the opponent so well as to see their next ten moves. Or the divine character who recieves premonitions from his diety of what the furture should hold. Or the arcane character who peers through space and time with advanced calculations. All we need to cover the idea of someone who sees the future is a ritual and martial practice that cover futuresight. After that you just refluff your character to say hs battle prowess comes from his ability to forsee the future. We don't even need a feat for this gimmick and you are saying it is more deserving fo a class than the soulknife which you admit may need a feat to represent.
Frankly I don't really get what you are going for with the elocator, but it just looks like either a wizard orswordmage who is just refluffed to be psionic. I mean if we can't have multiple classes that swing swords, we certainly can't have multiple ones who teleport things or summon things.
And Null, you are just describing defenders as a whole. Dampen? Shielding swordmage. Dismiss? Ensaring swordmage. Steal and manipulate? Refluff either mind spike or dimsensional vortex(god I love this power). Dispel?....Well this one is a bit too narrow to correlate to anything. I mean you can't really dispel a town guard(most times at least). Subvert? Well this is sort of vague, so I'll just say all defenders.
I'm losing my mental lawyer mode right now. So to conclude, the characterization you put forward for the Soulknife can be equally applied to nearly any class that has been released to PHB1 or will be released(even the ones you put forth). Just because you don't like the class idea, does not mean it is a bad idea period. The idea of forging your bladein the middle of combat is an idea that works for some people and can certainly work as a class(although I would personally prefer it not to be psionic).
Arguably, it's more like a weapon, or an implement.
It's like folks saying "I want a class that uses Guns!"
Gun-use isn't really a concept for a class though - it's a weapon. You could have a class that uses them well (Hellooooo Ranger!), but you aren't going to introduce firearms to the game via a single class. Even if other characters who wanted to use them could take a multiclass feat to get ahold of one.
Consider implements. One doesn't say "I want a character who uses a Staff [in a wide variety of ways]! It should be a class!" We wind up with an option usable by a wide variety of different characters, in a wide variety of ways.
Power Source: psionic
Role: striker
Ability Scores: charisma with strength or intelligence
Implements: ki foci (recall that you can use their enhancement bonus for weapons)
Armor: cloth, leather
Features: psionic augmentation, mind blade, striker damage, soulknife training.
Mind Blade: You can manifest a mind blade as a minor action (free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). The mind blade has three forms: dagger, sword, and fullblade. You choose the form when you manifest the mind blade and can change it as a minor action. The dagger is a light blade with the off-hand property and deals 1d6 damage. The dagger can be thrown with a range of 10 squares. The sword is a one-handed light blade that deals 1d8 damage. The fullblade is a two-handed heavy blade that deals 1d10 damage. All forms have a +3 proficiency bonus. When you manifest dagger form or switch to dagger form, you can create two mind blades: one for each open hand. You can use your Charisma modifier for attack and damage rolls with basic attacks made with your mind blade.
* NOTE: The bladeform keyword indicates soulknife powers that change your mind blade's form.
Striker damage: When you augment a soulknife or soulknife paragon path power, you deal an extra 1d6 damage per tier. If you fully augment the power, increase this bonus damage by 2.
Soulknife Training: choose your school.
1) Psychic Warrior: You are schooled in battle, wielding a weapon that strikes at both body and soul. You gain proficiency with hide and chainmail. Add your Strength modifier to damage with unaugmented attacks.
2) Master of the Nine Swords: where the psychic warrior is a knight who exploits the weakness of your foe's mind, you are the daring swashbuckler who embraces the strength of your own mind. When you change the form of your mind blade, your attacks with your mind blade deal extra damage equal to your Intelligence modifier until the end of your next turn.
Powers:
1st level
Hammer Form - minor action to change your bladeform to a hammer. While in hammer form, your mind blade gains the following augments, usable with any attack:
1. push the target 1 square
2. +1[W] damage and the target is dazed until the end of its next turn.
Spear Form - minor action to change your bladeform to a spear. While in spear form, your mind blade gains the following augments:
1. increase the range of your mind blade by Int mod.
2. push Int mod and knock prone.
Mindreaver - vs Will (melee or ranged), 1[W]+Cha psychic damage.
1. as above, and -1 penalty to Will until end of next turn.
2. 2[W]+Cha psychic damage, and -Str to attack until end of next turn.
Ready to Defend - you strike, and then ready your mindblade for the counterattack. 1[W]+Cha damage, and the target takes -2 to attacks against you until the end of your next turn.
1. As above, and if the enemy's attack hits, it takes Int damage.
2. 2[W]+Cha damage, and if the target attacks you before the end of your next turn, you can, as an immediate interrupt do either of the following:
A) gain resist 5 against the triggering attack (mind blade becomes a shield)
B) make a basic attack against the triggering attacker (mind blade splits into two, and you get a riposte)
* Example of versatility
Dailies - I forgot these. Be back later.
2nd level
Astral jaunt - move action, at-will. Teleport 1 square.
Mind Armor - daily; minor action to spend a healing surge and gain temp hp = surge value. Once, while the temp hp lasts, when an enemy damages you in melee, you may deal Int mod damage to it as immediate reaction.
3rd level
Flail form - mind blade becomes a flail, granting the following augments:
1. gain reach 1 for the attack
2. deal +1[W] and knock prone or restrain until start of your next turn.
* Example of versatility.
Astral Sneak Attack - teleport 1 and then attack for 1[W]+Cha
1. teleport half speed instead of 1.
2. teleport speed and attack with combat advantage
5th level
Nightmare blade - you leave your foe catatonic, attacked by its own nightmares; vs Will for 3[W]+Cha and stunned plus ongoing 5 psychic.
Knife to the Soul - vs Fort, 3[W]+Cha and weakened plus can only make at-will/basic attacks.
Explosive Throw - ranged only; vs Ref for choice of attacks:
A) 4[W] and blinded.
B) 3[W] and make a secondary attack that's close burst 1 centered on and including the primary target. Hit: 1[W]. Primary attack is miss half, but secondary isn't. Secondary attack is an Effect, so you make secondary attack even if primary misses.
Manyform Blade - you lash out with a flurry of blows, your mind blade changing after each strike; 3 attacks for 1[W] each (you only add Cha once). After each attack, you can change your bladeform as a free action (triggering the class feature of the Master of the Nine Swords). If the first attack hits, you have combat advantage for the second attack. If the second attack hits, you have combat advantage for the tertiary attack.
* I wouldn't be surprised if this were imbalanced. But as I said, I wasn't working to balance. Just have proof of concept.
6th - don't have them yet.
7th
Anyweapon Strike - you embrace the subtle strengths of your blade's current form; Effect: you can change your bladeform as a free action and then make the following attack: vs AC, 1[W]+Cha
1. If you do change your bladeform, you have CA for this attack.
2. The attack gains an extra effect based on your current bladeform.
Dagger: two attacks (main hand and off-hand)
Sword: if you miss, deal Cha damage.
Fullblade: roll twice for damage and use the higher
Other: you gain the benefit of that bladeform's augment and have CA for the attack.
* Example of versatility.
Like I said, I haven't tried to balance. The bladeform powers will likely need a special rule because of humans and half-elves. (Humans gain no benefit from most bladeform at-wills, because they can't use the augment part). Half-elves gain no benefit of bladeform powers unless they can form a mindblade. And then they're in the same boat as humans.
EDIT: I've added back my writeup. It's important for discussion. (Also, the third party I was thinking of writing for usually doesn't publish new classes). So, it's open game for WotC again. I hope it inspires.
That said, what I've designed looks nothing like any current classes. And DragonCat, the examples you gave of adaptable aren't adaptable in the way I was talking about. Currently, there are specific fighter powers in a fighter Dragon article that do what I'm talking about, and specific warlord powers in a warlord Dragon article. But outside of like 20 powers max (between 2 classes) what I'm talking about is not available.
That said, I'm sure you won't be convinced. Honestly, thinking about it more, your proposed feat plus a fighter could do a lot of what I'm talking about. I will grant you this much: what you want in psionics should come before (or at the same time) as what I'm talking about. I'll give what you want priority. But I still want the soulknife. I can wait another couple of years if need be, but I still want it to come eventually.
EDIT: And DragonCat, I just noticed something funny. Here you are, being against soulknife, then on Psionic Power wishlist, you're pro-pyrokineticist. Ok, not all that funny, but I'm amused to see that the kind of arguments you're defending against on one thread are the kind of arguments you're making on another thread. And I'd just like to point out that on Psionic Power Wishlist, you're explicitly competing for limited location in a specific book. Here's we're just saying we want it. No claims about when.
But that can be used that to describe all new classes. You say that we already have people who do things with blades, but that exact same argument can be put forth for any weapon based class.
False.
It is the ability to take a theme and manifest it in unique mechanics that marks the creative potential of a new class. It is the way a Rogue blends the theme of slipping through shadows and clever timing with the mechanical reliance on positioning, flanking, and mobility that makes him exemplify the underhanded combat style and set him apart from his foes. It is the way Barbarians truly rage across the battlefield, charging into glory and taking every punishment in their pursuit of blood that makes them true embodiments of fury. It is the way a Monk can wield any weapon, from the mightiest sword to the smallest spoon, and use all its abilities to their fullest while flying, floating, dancing away from death that incarnates the serene and agile spirit of Wuxia. It is the way the Ranger's pure focus becomes a fearsome credit to its idea, the direct and brutal hunter who's only aim is his target's death through strike after strike after strike. It is the way an Avenger pulls his target out of the fight to deliver righteous punishment in single combat, rejecting the advances of any who stand in the way of justice. It is the way an Assassin carefully sets up his target over time to deliver a sudden spike of death incarnate.
Likewise, as you mention, summoning plays out on multiple fronts within the game, yet many casters do so in different ways. Compare the conjured demon with the called wolf; the demon is bound to the wizard's will, thus it requires his action to interact with the environment. The wolf is a being unto itself, and can act with animal instinct should the druid's attention waver....but woe upon the natural guardian who does not pay attention, for the wolf has a mind to its own, and the same tooth and claw that rend the flesh of an enemy might snack upon the flank of an ally without careful handling.
Thus, the mechanical ties divide any two classes, just as their themes set them apart. Thus, a wholesome unity is created between the clockwork of the game and the story it seeks to tell.
It is amusing, for you constantly attack the idea that no theme can have multiple means, yet that is, shall we say, an echo of a previous point. The ability to conjure a weapon has plenty of themes, from the holy warrior granted a weapon that descends from the heavens, the knave who summons a splinter of shade to slice the throat, the primal protector who forms a club from the heart of an oak or grows claw and fang, all the way to the wizard summoning a shaft of pure fire as a spear. Thus, I must ask, is not the theme, the ability to call forth the blade, better served by granting it across power sources, across classes, across different combat styles and focuses? What logic is there to cram the entire concept into a single mold, one that mimics already existing ideas, and declare that all others must multiclass into the copycat for its ability? Most lacking in logic, this be. But themes! We were talking about themes. About how they have to have a concept AND a mechanical incarnation.
So, too, a theme must be judged with what one can create with it.
One could easily say, as you cite, that he "sees the future", and that is the source of his abilities. So, too, could one concentrate on immediate interrupts, things that negate actions taken by others and place him in a better position. Yet this setup will often fail to incarnate the most basic ability of a precognitive; to yell a warning to a friend twenty feet away. Ergo, such a method would be imperfect and flawed, for without the ability to react faster than the world around it in multiple aspects, the ability to witness what was about to unfold would not properly translate into the mechanics of the game. In other words, it wouldn't jive.
In turn, what does the trope offer if given time in its own right? Perhaps a character who can advise his allies and unwind an opponent's strategy before it has even begun. Someone who can use the immediate interrupt mechanic as a basic core; to provide defense against onslaught by perceiving the threat before it arrives and providing aid, help, or simple warning. In the most basic form, this would be a powerful leader. In another sense, it would be a miraculous defender, one who's marking ability is not an attack, but rather a reactive defense, the ability to completely negate attacks by others. Mechanical hooks to go along with the blind seer, the whispering sibyl, the enlightened prophet, tropes of history that have thematic appeal and a will to power.
Can any other class in this game claim to never make a single attack roll? Can any claim to be a defender who does not pick up a blade? Is there one that can reject an enemy's strike before it starts, having known of its forecoming for the past thirty seconds and planned accordingly? If so, let them step forward, and the Oracle will have no place.
But I digress, that is not the subject at hand.
You claim a single feat wouldn't be enough for the Soulknife concept? Then share your mind, and your ideas will be evaluated fairly. I would be interested to see what cannot be done with granting any of the nineteen possible blade users in the game the ability to manifest a weapon. And moreover, why attempting to cram them all into a single class, one which has historically been twenty levels worth of a single piece of equipment, is a more favorable option than granting the trope across the different classes to encompass multiple themes, from the Totemist growing claws to the Paladin summoning a heavenly lance to the Assassin's already-possible blade of pure shadow.
After all, my unwillingness to see this class as a beneficial contributer (were it to occupy the only two remaining Psionic class slots) is based on its complete lack of necessity. If it can offer something that the current swift, agile, psionic melee striker cannot, that would be significant. Unfortunately, with the weapon build of the monk upcoming, and the possibility of the more mystically inclined Tattoo Monk offering more exotic attacks, such as bursts and ranged strikes, the odds of a unique mechanic seem.....faint.
For the Soulknife to be worth its weight in print, it must be able to do something we have never seen before. It must have a thematic appeal that evokes a heroic image (because a class without flavor is, well, we've read the Battlemind). And it must translate that heroic image into the mechanics of the game in a unique manner, presenting itself in a way that creates its own special niche, a merger of fluff and crunch, one never before occupied by any who have come before it.
Now, that aside there is one possibility that has been discussed that has merit. The idea of having multiple weapons that do various things, shifting from spear to sword to flail and gaining different traits, is a good one.
One issue: a Martial class could do it better.
Think about this, for a moment. Let us say I presented you with a Martial class, a Disciple of the Nine Swords (thrice-damn the lack of a good term for knight errant/wandering swordsman/kensai/whatever in English!). His abilities were based around blending multiple styles and multiple weapons into a seemless unity of combat perfection. If he wields a Flail, it is treated differently than if he wields a Halberd, so too an Axe, etc. Using Ki Foci (flavored as scrolls, handbooks, manuals, etc), he is unbound by the normal equipment rules and allowed to blend sword, axe, hammer, fist, spear, flail, spiked shield, every weapon ever forged into martial perfection. He is the versatile master of battle, the true embodiment of martial prowess.
Is this not more appropriate? The martial source is all about versatility, adaptability, refining the skill with all the tools at hand to take to battle. The theme of the Weapon Master does not require the ability to forge a blade out of nothing, it just requires carrying around lots of pointy sticks. So, too, the Weaponmaster would be served well by having the Blade of the Soul feat as a backup, thus allowing him to always have his weapon of choice....but he is not bound to the theme. So, too, is the theme not bound to him; for a Paladin can conjure a radiant sword, a Warden can grow claw and fang, and a Swordmage can summon the Black Blade of Disaster upon a whim.
But I digress, once again.
EDIT: And DragonCat, I just noticed something funny. Here you are, being against soulknife, then on Psionic Power wishlist, you're pro-pyrokineticist..
Not quite accurate: I'm pro Energy Power inclusion in the power selection presented. I don't think it takes a new class feature or build, but the occassional splattering of energy-themed powers would, in my opinion, be thematically appropriate and help round out the telekinetic's terrain dependancy.
Or perhaps I am merely toying with you all, using you as test subjects to improve debate ability. For I am the cat who walks by himself, and all threads are alike to me.
Also, your invoked weaponmaster class sounds like a fighter with mechanics altered to make a weaponmaster viable. Because a fighter already is a weaponmaster. But it can't quite play the concept right, because of the need for all those magic weapons. (A monk multiclass to fix the ki focus thing would fix it).
And as for soulknife precluding any other class from conjuring a soul weapon, I still don't see the problem. Those other classes do that and remain mostly warden/bard/paladin/whatever. But the soulknife focuses on using that to become a master of many weapons. I mean look at all those powers I made. And I barely scratched the surface of what's possible. Especially when you consider that I rolled together potentially separate powers to emphasize that adaptability.
But sorry Dragoncat for that slight misquote. Thanks for the correction. I hope you're working on your debate quality. I like having allies to count and dislike having opponents to count. I'm actually beginning to feel worn down by this debate. I don't know how much longer I can defend my darling the soulknife.
Also, your invoked weaponmaster class sounds like a fighter with mechanics altered to make a weaponmaster viable. Because a fighter already is a weaponmaster. But it can't quite play the concept right, because of the need for all those magic weapons. (A monk multiclass to fix the ki focus thing would fix it).
Indeed it does!
Because the Weaponmaster, too, would have to justify just why it is deserving of a particular class. And it would probably fail the "why isn't this a fighter" litmus test, because the core of its features, the versatile nature of choosing a weapon, could easily be spread across fighters, rangers, warlords, and rogues (because hitting someone with a sling and a crossbow is different, slicing something with a sword or chopping with an axe is different, etc).
The example in question was devised with one thematic image, and one thematic image only...
Embrace the variable weapons!
The point being, there is no intrinsic tie between the Conjuring Swords archetype and the Use Of Various Weapons To Achieve Different Results mechanical method. Now, it is true that there is a link in potentia, but one would have to justify why it would work well.....which, in turn, gets back to the confrontation of having another agile melee Psionic character.
But the class that WOULD do the concept right....is the Shaolin-style monk, who could have various katas based upon whatever he had selected in his arsenal, already uses the Ki focus, and has his damage already kept on a level field (which you mentioned as a core value, streamlining the features). Which is, if rumor is correct, coming out in Psionic Power, a monk that concentrates on ensuring that a spear is different than a shuriken, but does so in a single, cohesive whole, with thematic principles to boot.
And don't worry about the misquote, I needed to make my point a bit clearer in that other thread. And I like drifting from ally to enemy, enemy to ally, confounding all in my wake. Confusion in the target sweetens the thrill of the pounce.
In case you're curious, yes, the beholder cultist was 20 levels of gaining extra eyes and eye rays. (Plus extra fluff on other beholder bloodlines that had alternative eyerays, allowing for more spells the beholder cultist could use). I never got that book, but it sounded like it was a warlock with a beholder patron. Both fluff-wise and mechanic-wise.
I mean, if in 3.5 they could make a 20 level class called the beholder cultist
We.........do not speak about that publication.
It is amusing, for you constantly attack the idea that no theme can have multiple means, yet that is, shall we say, an echo of a previous point. The ability to conjure a weapon has plenty of themes, from the holy warrior granted a weapon that descends from the heavens, the knave who summons a splinter of shade to slice the throat, the primal protector who forms a club from the heart of an oak or grows claw and fang, all the way to the wizard summoning a shaft of pure fire as a spear. Thus, I must ask, is not the theme, the ability to call forth the blade, better served by granting it across power sources, across classes, across different combat styles and focuses? What logic is there to cram the entire concept into a single mold, one that mimics already existing ideas, and declare that all others must multiclass into the copycat for its ability? Most lacking in logic, this be. But themes! We were talking about themes. About how they have to have a concept AND a mechanical incarnation.
I really don't have a problem with themes having multiple means. I was just trying to attack your ideas using the same reasoning that you were using to attack the soulknife idea. If there are multiple other ways to form a weapon for yourself in the game, that is perfectly fine. Heck we already have one througgh an assassin PP. I can concede that having a feat and a class would be fine, even if I didn't do so in my previous post.
You claim a single feat wouldn't be enough for the Soulknife concept? Then share your mind, and your ideas will be evaluated fairly. I would be interested to see what cannot be done with granting any of the nineteen possible blade users in the game the ability to manifest a weapon. And moreover, why attempting to cram them all into a single class, one which has historically been twenty levels worth of a single piece of equipment, is a more favorable option than granting the trope across the different classes to encompass multiple themes, from the Totemist growing claws to the Paladin summoning a heavenly lance to the Assassin's already-possible blade of pure shadow.
After all, my unwillingness to see this class as a beneficial contributer (were it to occupy the only two remaining Psionic class slots) is based on its complete lack of necessity. If it can offer something that the current swift, agile, psionic melee striker cannot, that would be significant.
As I stated before, I don't really supporta psionic soulknife style class, so my idea for the class is actually an elemental class. Do you still want to see the ideas despite that fact?
As I stated before, I don't really supporta psionic soulknife style class, so my idea for the class is actually an elemental class. Do you still want to see the ideas despite that fact?
I do.
Soulknife
Class Traits
Role: Striker. You eschew weapons in favor of your mindblade, and you avoid heavy armor as your attacks rely on speed and mobility.
Power Source: Psionic. Your intense focus, constant training, and exceptional talent combine to allow you to harness the psionic power within yourself to form a blade composed of pure energy.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Wisdom, Charisma
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Mindblade
Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose four trained skills at 1st level.
Class skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Heal (Wis), Insight (Wis), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex)
Class Features: Mindblade, Psionic Augmentation, Psionic Focus, Psychic Strike
Soulknife Class Features
Soulknives have the following class features.
Mindblade
A mindblade is a one-handed light blade with the off-hand property, which deals 1d8 damage.
While you cannot enchant a mindblade, your mindblade receives an enhancement bonus to attack and damage as you level. At 2nd level, this is +1. This increases to +2 at 7th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 17th level, +5 at 22nd level, and +6 at 27th level.
Psionic Augmentation
As per Ardent / Battlemind / Psion.
Psionic Focus
Choose one of the following options. The choice you make gives you the benefit described below and also provides bonuses to certain soulknife powers, as detailed in those powers.
Mind: Attacks with your mindblade deal psychic damage and you gain a +1 bonus to your Will defense.
Body: Attacks with your mindblade deal force damage and you gain a +1 bonus to your Fortitude defense.
Psychic Strike
Once per turn, when you deal damage with your mindblade, you gain a psionic charge, up to a maximum of three. These charges last until used or until the end of the encounter.
Before you make an attack roll against a target, you can choose to invoke either all your psionic charges or none of them. If you use your charges, the attack deals 1d6 damage per charge, minus one charge if the attack misses, and your psionic charges reset to zero. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls.
The damage caused by your psychic strike increases at paragon and epic tier as follows -
Level 11: 1d6 + 3 damage per charge.
Level 21: 1d6 + 6 damage per charge.
Special: If you deal a creature enough damage with your mindblade to make it fall (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you gain an additional psionic charge.
I wanted the class to be a melee striker, and I wanted to make the blade itself fairly simple and make it's main abilites come from class abilities and skills. I made it grow in power with level progression - the alternative was to look at a Ki Focus or similar, but it's still in the early stages of planning, so this suffices for now.
Psionic Focus was intended to bring a thematic element to the class, from other media images of Soulknives or equivalent characters. Psionic Strike was aimed to bring an alternative to Sneak attack, drawing inspiration from the old 3e material, in particular some of the feats in Complete Psionic.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
@avatar2k3a: Hmm... I was thinking maybe replacing WIS with CON for a possible secondary. It would match up with the Mind/Body class features nicely. Also, you might want to fix your post.
I chose Wis as secondary attribute as it fits with the class skills, and I also intended to make the class powers mostly precognitive and temporal in nature as I like the theme (reminiscent of the Zerth Cenobite in CP / Elocater in EPH). There are also few abilities like it in PHB3, and those are spread across all three augment-based classes, so it seemed like a good niche to take up.
With Psionic Focus I was aiming to give the class some flavour, rather than just letting the mindblade do untyped damage (and it opens itself up well to the possibility of using feats / powers to change the damage type as well).
Force damage and Psychic damage fits in with the stereotypical soulknife in media, the names were more based on the defense bonuses, but perhaps Fortitude doesn't fit with my original vision of the class using speed and reactions to avoid blows - or maybe I'm just overanalysing :P
But thanks for your comments anyway - much appreciated!
If the arguments against it being a class used in this thread were applied universally it would mean no class would be made at all, ever again. Any new concept could be made with an existing class, with the addition of a group of feats or with a multiclass only class. Especially if you are willing to change important aspects of the class, like power source (for example, suggestions that the Rogue makes a good Soulknife with a feat for the "Soulknife" part).
There is very much the essence of a good class in the concept of the Soulknife. I see it as someone that can shape the power of the mind into a physical manifestation. Personally I'd take it a bit further than just a blade and have them make Soul Armour and a few other effects too, not just weapons. I'd make them cloth wearers and have there defensive mechanic being a suit of Soul Armour they create and dispel as they wish. They can then have powers and possibly feats that enhance it, like creating spikes out of it to damage melee attackers, or temperarily making it a complete shell that protects all defences not just AC.
They could also have some higher level powers where they have learned more than just creating weapons, they can create "Soulforce" objects, like Walls of Force or Soul Cages to trap enemies in.
I think that it would be good to have an Psionic Augmenting Striker, and Soulknife has all that it needs to fill that roll. I also think that is can link with the Monk too, using a Ki Focus.