Of course, one of the big questions is where they'll end up taking the new primal and divine classes. After all, most of the basic concepts are already covered - what more could they do? Here's a few ideas I had:
Savage (Primal Striker): A primal scout/hunter-type character. This class may be inspired in part by the "Fist of the Forest" prestige class from 3.5E; a savage hunter or "wild child" who lives an animalistic lifestyle in the wilds. This character may have inherited the "claw" powers from the psychic warrior; they might have felt that growing claws to attack an enemy worked better as a primal concept instead of a psionic concept.
Mystic (Divine Leader): A 'squishier' form of priest inspired more by eastern than western concepts (this may have been a former Ki class which was moved to another source). Tends to worship in the form of philosophies rather than direct devotion to the deities. Combines the non-elemental aspects of the shugenja with the healer class from 3.5E and a few "mystic monk" ideas.
What other ideas did you have for classes we might see in PHB3?
I'd like to see Witch as a primal controller. More weather control and debuffs than the Druid, no animal form.
Archivist is an obvious choice for Divine, possibly for the more squishy leader concept with a touch of controller (or vice verse).
(It'd probably be a Striker, too)
Getting back on topic, I suggested the Savage idea because it seemed to be a niche which wasn't already covered by other classes (sort of a Tarzan meets Wolverine vibe). Archivist might be another interesting idea, but the concept might have gotten absorbed into the Invoker already.
They might also do a "lycanthropic" class that focuses on shapeshifting into a single specific form with multiple uses, as opposed to the many forms used by the Druid and Warden.
No, you forget, this is PHB3, which will include the Wilden and Wilder. We're likely to see Wildpriest, Wildman, Wildshaper, and Wildwildwild
Clearly PHb3 was inspired by one of 1988's greatest songs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQkyYC3si3c&feature=related
The Totemist from Incurnum will become Primal.
Totemist might have ended up evolving into the Warden. A few of the Warden powers I've seen seem to have a similar flavor.
Maybe one of the new Divine classes will take some inspiration from the Incarnum classes.
- Monk
- Empath
- "Psion" (highlighting 3e telepathy discipline attacks but also with some variety thrown in)
- Maybe they could cook up a TK defender class, kind of like a heavy-hitting monk and then some. Not too much like the Warden, but maybe something like a Jedi Knight.
Primal
- A hunter-like archetype (mentioned by someone on another thread) combined with the presence of the Wilden may lend itself to a "Predator" class. Something that emphasizes stalking, stealth, pouncing, etc. without eating up Rangers, Rogues, and, say, Ninjas. Hmm...maybe think the movie Predator as well.
- I've wondered if a single class could capture both the Shugenja and the Dark Sun elemental clerics. 3e Shugenja were Divine, but if they're not slated for 4e Elemental then they'll no doubt move to Primal like the Druid did.
- As mentioned on this thread, there may be more to mine from shapeshifting. A class that polymorphs enemies (possibly a Witch) might be viable.
- Also mentioned here, a focused shapeshifter (something like a lycanthrope) might work. It seems iffy, but conceivable.
Divine
- Again thinking ahead to a possible Dark Sun setting release, something like the Ur-Priest that siphons divine power might have a place. They'd be drawing on the Divine power source in quite a different manner through self-investiture or invoking dead deities or something.
- Others have mentioned the Dark Sun Templar. It's an idea, though I honestly don't know personally that the Cleric wouldn't work just fine for that.
- If the Shugenja were to remain Divine they might channel the powers of the Elemental Chaos but with the blessings of Astral Spirits or some such.
Edit: I forgot to wear my anti-Far Realm goggles to go with the PH3 theme! That may nudge flavors in different directions or reveal some other class ideas.
Where are all the Abjuration type effects from D&D tradition? We've got a few here and there, but nothing really substantial. I always loved playing Abjuration specialists. The whole concept of focusing on spell casting as the ultimate defensive tool is just quite appealing to me.
I'd like to see an Abjurer class. I'm not sure we'll see it in the PH3, but you never know. It could theoretically be tied in with Divine, as the fluff there does imply a lot of protective magic.
I could see this falling somewhere inbetween controller and leader. It would center around providing serious defensive buffs to your allies, and hampering your enemies; not by inflicting serious damage or negative status affects, but by making it really difficult for them to do things such as move into specific areas or use certain abilities. This is all just off the top of my head, but I think it's a valid idea.
As a possible Divine class, this seems to fall between the Avenger and the 2H paladin, but with a darker feel to it. (Dark armor, glowing red eyes)
No class has alignment requirements anymore, and as the Warlock and Tiefling show, "Darker" =/= "Evil"... but if it is a class that appeared in a previous edition, it may be one of the formerly "evil only" ones, like Blackguard.
We could very well see a very powerful fire and brimstone striker that is very much a glass cannon that focuses on ranged single target attacks with a lot of (if you do this you get even more damage)
Primal
A leader/controller that, following the theme of transformation, has spirits posses allies (gives the buffs) and/or posses enemies debilitating them.
The whole claw, skulker thing is cool as well.
The Minotaur
Who says that the minotaur represents a new class? I t could be an old one... although, assuming it is a new one it could be a very brute kind of divine defender or a heavily armored primal class (which is possible, I think)
Lots of claw/tentacle attacks that deal radiant necrotic damage. :D
"Mystic" - Divine Leader: A light-armor leader/controller with a focus on defensive prayers like healing zones and walls of radiant damage.
"Nature's Wrath" - Primal Striker: A class embodying nature's dangerous elements. It would focus on lightning strikes, tangling vines, freezing cold, etc focused on hindering and killing a single target.
"Kineticist" - Psionic Controller: Controller/striker with an abundance of force damage, pushes, pulls, and slides. Probably some teleportation and other damage types (fire, lightning, thunder, cold) thrown in to the mix.
"Empath" - Psionic Controller: Controller/leader focused on mind control and manipulating enemies.
"Mindblade" - Psionic Defender or Striker: A class combining elements of the soulknife and psychic warrior from third edition. Preferably it wouldn't focus too much on the shape-changing powers of the psychic warrior.
Primal
Witch (Controller):A class focusing on debuffs and polymorph effects. Will likewise probably have some interesting rituals (double double toil and trouble!)
________ (Controller, Leader, or Striker): A revamped Shujgena who will focus on a particular role based on the element that they embrace. Might impinge on elemental's territory though...So honestly I'm not quite sure what they'll put here.
Divine
Templar (Defender): A heavily armored defender who will likely minor in striker. Might eat up some of the blackguard's abilities and be a solid mirror to the avenger. Perhaps fleshed out as a thug to the paladin's knight.
Mystic (Leader): Will likely be a more clothy priest (even more so than the invoker) who focuses on soft control and conditional warding effects.
Psionic
Empath (Leader):Will use emotional effects to grant temporary HP and save bonuses to allies. Will likely have full discipline powers that enable him to use various emotional buffs in differing ways.
Telepath (Controller): Mind control, mind control, with a side of mind control and a nice creamy mind control sauce.
Kineticist (Controller or Striker): Probably eats up the wilder to become not only the "flashy psion" but also the wild Psion along the lines of Carrie .
Monk (Striker):Confirmed
Edit: obvious choice would be making it divine, but I would accept it as primal, for a twist.
The Angelic Mystic would have more leader powers and attack with their wings. The Devilish Mystic would more contollerish and be like the old blackguards. And then you get the Samson/Hercules like Marut Mystics who punches enemies thorugh walls when they hit alles.
Psionic:
Monk (Obviously, Striker)
Psion (Controller, builds: Telepath, Telekinetic)
Soulknife (Defender)
Empath (Leader)
Primal:
Totemist (Defender)
Witch (Controller)
Divine:
Archivist (Leader)
Mystic (Controller)
Lets not forget that Hybrid Classes are gonna be in the PH3, so that's a lot of material already in.
Having said that, I have to wonder why no one has mentioned this:
Beast Master A Primal leader that commands a number of beasts that varies from one big to many small ones. It's different than the Ranger in that he doesn't fight with them at all, and instead, he boosts them.
Reaper The Raven Queen needs her agents...
On the other hand...
The Mindblade might not be as good a theme as it was before the Swordmage and the Avenger took most of the things that this class could do.
People look closely at the minotaur in the cover please, we are getting RUNE MAGIC
Edit: obvious choice would be making it divine, but I would accept it as primal, for a twist.
Its more likely that he is imbuing the weapon with Psionic or Primal or Divine power. But ya never know. I am not sure with the Hybrids being introduced in the book that they would introduce something like Rune Magic as well.
Its more likely that he is imbuing the weapon with Psionic or Primal or Divine power. But ya never know. I am not sure with the Hybrids being introduced in the book that they would introduce something like Rune Magic as well.
By rune magic I just mean maybe two classes, probably divine, themed around the concept of power-symbols/runes.
Namely a heavy armored, weapon/armor-imbuing warrior (the minotaur), and a scholarly type focused on powers like the old Glyph of X things, someone who could well be called an Abjurer, or Runecaster.
Psionic
"Empath" - Leader; auras, a "damage transfer" healing effect (or set of effects), some telepathy-type powers (old powers along the lines of ego whip and id insinuation, etc.)
"Monk" - Striker; we've seen this one.
"Psychic Warrior/Battlemind/Egoist" - Defender. manipulates own body to become tougher, grow spines on fist, fuse with weaponry. Biofeedback themed powers. Has a mark that involves light mind-control maybe.
"Psion/Erudite" - Controller. Telekinesis, Telepathy, maybe even Shaping type powers.
"Soulknife/blade" - Striker. Summons a psiblade (implements that are worn, such as dorje's would help this along). Uses psionic focus to boost damage and effects of blade 1/round. cloud the minds of enemies, teleportation, super jumps.
Divine
"Runecaster" - no idea on role. I'm inclined to think the Minotaur's runes are tied in with the class. Could be a leader, defender, or striker. Places runes on equipment of self and allies as a central class feature. Powers could enhance the runes. Leaning toward leader, I guess.
Primal
Not sure at all. A spiritual caster, like the Wu Jen in previous editions, could work. A scout/hunter type could work as well.
By rune magic I just mean maybe two classes, probably divine, themed around the concept of power-symbols/runes.
Namely a heavy armored, weapon/armor-imbuing warrior (the minotaur), and a scholarly type focused on powers like the old Glyph of X things, someone who could well be called an Abjurer, or Runecaster.
I dont see that in this PHB sorry. Perhaps another one down the line. Or even in Arcane Power 2. Just dont see it in PHB 3.
Psionic:
Monk (Psionic Striker)
The martial artist who trains his mind and body to perfect his art. We know this one already.
Mentalist (Psionic Controller)
The psionic enchanter (may also be called Esper or Psion). Focuses mainly on telepathic powers that impose conditions on enemies and telekinetic powers that move them across the battlefield.
Empath (Psionic Leader)
The wise seer who can read the emotions of others and peer into the future. Focuses on subtly influencing the minds of allies to give them buffs, and those of enemies to debuff.
Soulblade (Psionic Defender)
The psychic swordsman, combining aspects of the psychic warrior with the soulknife. Probably won't have much in the way of body-morphing powers (since that's more of a primal shtick in this edition), instead focusing on precognitive strikes and fast movement. May cloud the minds of enemies so that he's their sole target.
Primal:
Savage (Primal Striker)
The primal hunter who seeks to become closer to the spirits by living an animalistic lifestyle. May inherit the body-morphing powers of the psychic warrior (such as growing claws and fangs), but doesn't invoke or morph into a specific creature like the warden. May also receive a ranged build focused on thrown weapons like javelins.
Witch (Primal Controller)
The wild magician who lives in harmony with the spirits. Focuses more on curses, enchantments, and debuff effects than the Druid does, being especially proficient in evocations that transform her enemies rather than herself.
Divine:
Mystic (Divine Leader)
The mystical monk or priest, based more on eastern concepts than western (combining aspects of the Healer with the Shugenja). A lightly-armored healer that focuses on banishing unclean spirits (including those from the Far Realm) with sacred energy. May have a ranged "divine archer" build.
Runemaster (Divine Defender)
A caster who has mastered the divine language of the gods; runes. Will primarily be an abjuration specialist, focused on keeping enemies away from his allies. Will probably be more of a secondary controller than a leader, unlike the Paladin, and may combine aspects of the Invoker with some basic martial ability.
Ok. If they put a new divine class in PHB 3, here is what I want:
Name: Summoner
Power Source: Divine
Role: Defender
You summon powerful avatars of your deity to aid you in battle.
The basic model is the beastmaster ranger, with a few differences:
- There are a number of avatar templates to choose from, such as a fire type (ifrit), a lightning type (eagle), and a radiant type (angel). Each avatar template determines one at-will attack, movement modes, defense bonuses, resistances, mark effects and secondary stat
- You can call and dismiss the avatar as a minor action
- You must take a standard action for the avatar to take a standard action
- The avatar can take immediate and opportunity actions at no cost to you
- You can take a move action to move you and the avatar
- The avatar marks enemies on attack
- The avatar is large size
- The attack stat of the avatar depends on your wisdom
- like the druid, you get 3 at-wills. One is a basic ranged attack like eldritch blast, one is a generic avatar attack, and one is from your avatar template
- encounter powers get extra effects based on your avatar template
- You only get 6+ Con healing surges. Your avatar has 1 healing surge per tier.
- Healing bond: When you or the avatar spend a healing surge, both of you heal as if both spent a healing surge
- Your HP per level are equal to wizard (4/lvl)
- Your avatar gets fighter hp (6/lvl)
- feats or PPs let you select a other avatar templates, but you can only summon one avatar at a time
---
Apart from that, I like the idea of the savage claw fighter. As a striker mechanic, they could reuse the Scout from 3rd edition: Move at least 2 squares on your turn and get +Xd6 damage bonus to one attack.
I don't see much room for other concepts in divine and primal though. I'd rather like to see 5 or even 6 psionic classes (monk + soulknife + psychic warrior + psion + empath + 1 surprise)
- The "Mystic" can be easily done with a cleric variant that can use Wis instead of Int/Dex for AC when wearing cloth armor
- The "Divine Energy Shooter" is too similar to an Invoker. I'd rather see a ranged Avenger variant, if anything.
- I really didn't like the Archivist concept, it's was a Wizard with a divine spell list in 3rd edition. The Invoker is much better.
- The Dark Sun Templar was just a reflavored Cleric / Paladin
- I'd love to see a Blackguard or similar but have not quite given up hope yet that Divine Power will allow for darker / evil Paladin flavors...
- The "Witch" Primal Controller is the one mentioned in this thread that would be easiest to distance from its source/role cousin. The druid wildshapes, the witch ... doesn't. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of throwing around primal curses and turning monsters into frogs (save ends
)Soulblade (Striker), like the Soulknife.
Stochastic (Striker), as a long range (like the ranger) psihunter. Focusing the third eye can aim better than other classes...
Empath (Leader), Monk (Striker)...
Divine:
Shugenja (Various): Its Divine, can read it in Oriental adventures or in Legend of five ring. The Kami of earth, water, fire or wind are divinity.
Blackward: (Striker): The evil gods have theirs own paladin...
Primal:
Ugula (Striker): Half animal classe, with claws and moviment powers, like jumps...
Totemist (Leader): Like WoW, emphatising the totems work.
Dragonborn Scion of Arkhosia/Eternal Defender!
For divine:
I could easily see the Minotaur being a Templar. Taking its powers not from the gods themselves but from some ancient divine magic. It fits in perfect with the cover that we have and even more so if Dark Sun is the next setting, which a lot of signs lean towards. (Defender)
I wouldn't mind seeing a Archivist/Exorcist sort of dealing with ghosts and undead. This idea has not been touched on at all yet, and I think would give the necromancer fans something to digest until the actual class comes out.(Leader)
Favored Soul type, summing weapons and armor made of pure light, summoning avatars maybe. All in all a divine summoner. Of the three the only one deity specific.(Defender/Leader not sure)
Obviously all would have some extra focus to healing, since that is sort of Divine's things.
Primal:
Totemist- sort of taking on traits of animals and using them in their powers. I could see daily powers giving boosts to stats for the encounter. Like Daily, spirit of the Rhino, some sort of charge attack and some sort of +2 con/+2 str til end of encounter. This would fit in with the theme primal sort of goes for. (Defender)
Witch- though there is already a lot of stuff already like this in arcane, and Witch is just female for warlock, so I am not really sure what they would do to make it distinct.
Savage (name pending)- Would love to see more ranged weapon options. A strength based ranged weapon striker would be new ground. Throwing spears and knocking targets prone or pushing them around, dazing them with throwing hammers, sort of building up for going into the kill. I real hunter/predator kind of striker. Similar to the Avenger or Ranger, just sort of more savage, could see some minor transformation in their too, similar to the totemist or warden. Cat claws, spitting snake venom, fangs sort of deal.
I don't expect there to be more than one or two strikers. That particular role has had its turn, some would say more than its turn. There'll be one in Psionic and maybe one in Primal.
Psionic, as the showcase, will cover all the roles. I like the name Mentalist for the psionic controller and maybe Wizards do too. Empath sounds fair enough for the leader, and we have the monk as striker. I think they'll leave a 'mind assault' striker for another book. That leaves defender, but I don't have any thoughts on that yet.
I strongly believe some of the old Ki classes will be amongst the other four classes (Yes, it's an assumption there's eight, but a relatively safe one). Reading between the lines, these were samurai, monk, wu jen and shugenja. Samurai looks like it's going to be a proto-class a la the gladiator, leaving wu jen and shugenja. These are possibilities for the primal and divine sources respectively.
I think Geomancer is a real possibility for primal - maybe that minotaur on the cover is a geomancer? Runes and 'earth magic' kinda go together. We might also see a Templar class in divine. Remember how there was a T class for PHB2 that never eventuated; that could be it. Also, they may want to do another primal leader that's easier to use than the shaman, and this is where the Witch could come in.
Right, time to stick my neck out and predict a list of 8.
Psionic
Defender: Soulblade/Psychic Warrior
Leader: Empath
Striker: Monk
Controller: Mentalist
Divine
Defender: Templar
Leader: Shugenja
Primal
Leader: Witch
Controller: Geomancer
Oh and while we're here, looks like we have the wilden, minotaur and probably both gith races. There'll be one or two races left - one of them being a small one. I still think duergar is a real possibility, with the small race perhaps being kobold or dark one.
I think the Psionic Controller though should be called a Telepath - it is such an iconic name in psionics that I feel it "has" to be used.
Templar has been thrown about as an idea, but they have to consider how it will be different from the Paladin. It will be a delicate balancing act to get two more divine classes which feel unique from the others (the battle Cleric already sort of overlaps thematically with the Paladin).
Exorcist might be a good name for a Divine Controller or Leader, and might be a potential build/alternative to the proposed Mystic class.
The Psionic Controller may end up including psychokinetic as well as telepathic builds. Telepath seems to suggest the latter rather than the former, so a more inclusive name like Psion/Mentalist/Esper may be favored.
Geomancer might be a good alternative name for the Witch class, and might also include some powers which grant different secondary effects depending on the terrain. For instance, a "blast of wind" power might deal extra damage in a desert due to sand getting kicked up by the wind, or might impose a penalty to hit in the forest due to blinding leaves.
Shugenja and Wu Jen might be saved for the Elemental power source, since a lot of their spell list was based on the elements in 3E. Ninja will probably end up being part of the Shadow source (the "true assassin"?).
Some ideas:
Shugenja and Wu Jen might be saved for the Elemental power source, since a lot of their spell list was based on the elements in 3E. .
Dont mind, the Power Source of a Shugenja its pray the Kami.
Divine.
Dont mind, the Power Source of a Shugenja its pray the Kami.
Divine.
Kami seem like they would fit in more as primal spirits then true gods.
We see mention of Rune Magic in the description of the Stone Giant. "The art of rune magic might have originated with ancient stone giants, although dwarf artificers surely disagree.". This might be an indication of what is going on with the Minotaur on the PHB 3 cover, or it could be a reference to a strong theme for the artificer class in the upcoming Eberron Player's Guide (the use of the word "artificer" makes me think the latter). That said, Rune Magic was frequently divine in past editions (the Runecaster was a divine prestige class in the FR setting).
I also noticed a human NPC called a "Hexer" in the MMII. It is described as a character that melds arcane and primal practices - focusing on curses, hexes, and the manipulation of primal spirits - to control the battlefield. This could be the "Witch" that people have speculated about. I can see a Primal Controller that focuses heavily on "debuffs" as being very different from the Druid.
PSIONIC:
-Monk
- Psion, Psionic controller. Shoots brain lasers or something.
- Mindblade
-Egoist
PRIMAL:
-Witch-Primal Controller, with hexes, polymorphs, and all that
- A wild hunter type
DIVINE:
-Some kind of "dark paladin"
-either a Summoner or a class that, like the Guild wars Dervish, shifts into an avatar of their deity
Kami seem like they would fit in more as primal spirits then true gods.
You made me think that a cool new Primal class/concept would be a mystic that reveres primal spirits in a more scholar/direct way. A sort of Primal Archivist. It could embody some witch flavor and at the same time give us something really new. I wonder what name could such a class have. Sage? Mystic?
You made me think that a cool new Primal class/concept would be a mystic that reveres primal spirits in a more scholar/direct way. A sort of Primal Archivist. It could embody some witch flavor and at the same time give us something really new. I wonder what name could such a class have. Sage? Mystic?
How bout Shaman? how is that not a Shaman?
How bout Shaman? how is that not a Shaman?
First of all, mechanically, it shouldn't have any summoned spirit and it probably shouldn't be a leader. It should use Intelligence as primary, Charisma and Wisdom as secondary, like a Wizard of Primal knowledge.
Then thematically: it should be a character who approaches primal spirits by the outside. Possibly even having an agenda that differs a bit from that of the spirits from which he nearly "steals" power. Archivist and Ur Priest concepts, but applied to the Primal source. This kind of approach would also explain why these characters could not channel healing from the spirits, at least not so much as a leader: spirits would grant such an important gift only to those who really are in commune with them, aka Shamans.
So it would be that kind of Primal but not wild-shaping controller.
Your surely very eloquent comment was probably directed to the fact that Shaman's powers often evoke spirits "personally" or however bring their name. Correcting the aim in that sense, this new class would probably not so much evoke them personally, but in some way manipulate their energies through ancient formulas. That's why they would make perfect Witches, and maybe could be called like that in the end.
If I were in charge, I would use the Paladin, Warlock and Cleric model with this class, making a Charisma build and an Intelligence build, both with the iconic Wisdom as secondary. The first is an entranced witch that uses her sheer force of will to subtly drive spirits in releasing their powers, the second would be a more detached and aloof sage/scholar that studies signs and portents in the natural world and derives strange formulas to unleash evocations.
But then people would say that they are mechanically underpowered just because they can't hyper-optimize them. Such a deep way of thinking... Thanks to them now we have less and less diverse mechanics.
ShowFirst of all, mechanically, it shouldn't have any summoned spirit and it probably shouldn't be a leader. It should use Intelligence as primary, Charisma and Wisdom as secondary, like a Wizard of Primal knowledge.
Then thematically: it should be a character who approaches primal spirits by the outside. Possibly even having an agenda that differs a bit from that of the spirits from which he nearly "steals" power. Archivist and Ur Priest concepts, but applied to the Primal source. This kind of approach would also explain why these characters could not channel healing from the spirits, at least not so much as a leader: spirits would grant such an important gift only to those who really are in commune with them, aka Shamans.
So it would be that kind of Primal but not wild-shaping controller.
Your surely very eloquent comment was probably directed to the fact that Shaman's powers often evoke spirits "personally" or however bring their name. Correcting the aim in that sense, this new class would probably not so much evoke them personally, but in some way manipulate their energies through ancient formulas. That's why they would make perfect Witches, and maybe could be called like that in the end.
If I were in charge, I would use the Paladin, Warlock and Cleric model with this class, making a Charisma build and an Intelligence build, both with the iconic Wisdom as secondary. The first is an entranced witch that uses her sheer force of will to subtly drive spirits in releasing their powers, the second would be a more detached and aloof sage/scholar that studies signs and portents in the natural world and derives strange formulas to unleash evocations.
But then people would say that they are mechanically underpowered just because they can't hyper-optimize them. Such a deep way of thinking... Thanks to them now we have less and less diverse mechanics.
Ahh, I see, that is a bit different.
I had a similar concept for the Witch; except it was a leader, but I suppose a controller could work. I like the idea of a Witch focusing on the more savory aspects of nature such as disease and maggots.
The problem any Primal class is going to run into is that the Druid and Warden pretty much do everything, both those classes are cluster****s of natureyness, way too many things are just covered by them in a half*** way.
I would have rathered the Warden just be completely focused on shapeshifting and the Druid to have nothing to do with it; that way the Druid and other Primal classes could be more unique by focusing on different things.
I partly agree with you on the Warden and Druid thing, too much overlap here and there.
However I see it coming, my old Wildhaunt class must have been mugged and its stuff stolen: they're going for "dark nature" classes, nothing else could justify new Primal classes. I just hope they'll leave some room so that I will one day actually release a 4e version of my beloved Wildhaunt without feeling like I created something now useless.
One class I could see is one that removes life from an area. When it finds a place tainted by the Far, it "cleanses the wound" so to speak.
Unfortunately this would go against how Primal classes are currently differentiated; as is, Primal classes are defined by how they interact with the spirits.
The barbarian is ridden by them.
The warden is allied to them.
The Shaman controlles them.
The Druid becomes one.
I dunno, a class that "manipulate[s] their energies through ancient formulas" seems pretty Arcane.
One class I could see is one that removes life from an area. When it finds a place tainted by the Far, it "cleanses the wound" so to speak.
Unfortunately this would go against how Primal classes are currently differentiated; as is, Primal classes are defined by how they interact with the spirits.
The barbarian is ridden by them.
The warden is allied to them.
The Shaman controlles them.
The Druid becomes one.
Well, if arcane users could manipulate even the spirits via formulas, we could have arcane shamans, arcane druids and even arcane barbarians, just give them the right spellbook, no? But in that case, an Archivist should have been arcane too.
I think a character who deals with primal powers, whatever the way he/she accomplishes, must be Primal, not much for logic's sake, but because otherwise we really have an all-encompassing arcane.
Given your classificaation, I'm proposing someone who either "steals power from them", or "instigates them".
Other interesting themes to work on would be:
- someone who "creates them" meaning that manipulating raw primal power it actually creates entities that in some kind work for him/herself (scary, complex and unlikely) or
- someone who "makes contact/frees the most hidden and restrained of them", another scary concept.
I think a character who deals with primal powers, whatever the way he/she accomplishes, must be Primal, not much for logic's sake
This I agree with 100%. The thing is, I'd say the same about Arcane and formulaic magic.
The archivist didn't use formulaic magic, and therefore wasn't arcane.
Given your classificaation, I'm proposing someone who either "steals power from them", or "instigates them".
What do you mean by "instigates them"?
This I agree with 100%. The thing is, I'd say the same about Arcane and formulaic magic.
The archivist didn't use formulaic magic, and therefore wasn't arcane.
What do you mean by "instigates them"?
Well, it had a prayer book I think. Not arcane but yes formulaic.
By instigate I mean coerce or subtly force to act violently. The Shaman does that in a way, but there are many other ways I think, and the theme would be different, it would use charisma or the said formulaic ways to create some new kind of effect that could in some way represent a back-door, a way to "trick the spirits". Dark twists are needed, you know...
That said, I wouldn't use my 4.e definition for arcane for 3.x arcane classes.
In 3.x, the power sources used demonstratably different types of energy, and this is no longer the case.
Now there appears to be only one source of magic, with power source defining how it's manipulated.
Yes, he had a Prayerbook, but prayers are abstract, not formulaic.
That said, I wouldn't use my 4.e definition for arcane for 3.x arcane classes.
In 3.x, the power sources used demonstratably different types of energy, and this is no longer the case.
Now there appears to be only one source of magic, with power source defining how it's manipulated.
Really? I thought 4e marked much more the "nearly geographic" origin of your powers.
Divine -> Astral Sea
Arcane -> Feywild
Primal -> World spirits
Psionic -> World mind
Martial -> World body
Shadow -> Shadowfell
Elemental -> Elemental Chaos
But then again, arcane defies this quite a bit, by not maintaining the feywild theme very much.
Races:
Minotaurs
Githyanki
Githerzai
Wilden
One 'like humans, only better' race (won't be Elans, possibly refluffed Maenads or pretty-upped Xeph)
Psionic classes:
Controller- Psion, main stats will be Int with Con and Cha as secondaries.
Defender- Psychic Warrior, main stats will be Wis with Con and one other as secondaries.
Leader- Empath, main stat will be Cha
Striker- Monk AND Soulknife, I strongly suspect there to be two strikers due to the ditching Ki thing. I also suspect the SK will have a melee and a ranged path.
Primal:
Striker- Wu Jen (might be renamed) Will be a more caster-y striker.
One other primal class
Divine:
???- Shugenja (might be renamed)
I suspect there will be only one divine class in the book, and it will be either a defender, leader, or striker.
I like the idea of the Geomancer and the Witch (someone should turn enemies into frogs).
The Wu-Jen would be a Controller.
That's what people said about the Sorcerer, and I'm glad they were wrong.
I don't mind the Wu-Jen idea that much; I have trouble creating a character concept for them that isn't azn but thats more my problem, it's a made up word and it's completely exclusive to D&D so I don't have a bunch of saturday morning cartoons telling me how to make my character which is nice, nobody really knows what a Wu-Jen is so I can make it whatever I want.
I can see them working as a striker, as long as they stand out from Sorcerers.
Really? I thought 4e marked much more the "nearly geographic" origin of your powers.
Divine -> Astral Sea
Arcane -> Feywild
Primal -> World spirits
Psionic -> World mind
Martial -> World body
Shadow -> Shadowfell
Elemental -> Elemental Chaos
But then again, arcane defies this quite a bit, by not maintaining the feywild theme very much.
The thing is, none of these line up very well. For example, the astral sea has a hell of a lot in it that has nothing to do with divinities, including the plane of dreams, which is normally associated with psionics.
I can put if the rest of my definitions, if there's any interest.
The thing is, none of these line up very well. For example, the astral sea has a hell of a lot in it that has nothing to do with divinities, including the plane of dreams, which is normally associated with psionics.
I can put if the rest of my definitions, if there's any interest.
Be our guest! :D Seriously, since I had never thought about power sources in 4e as you defined them briefly (distinguishing not the power but the way you manipulate it, right?), I'm curious.
I think in this edition Arcane seems to be kind of like the Sci-fi, quantum, god-particle, meld the energy of the worlds through formula or serendipity power source; if you are arcane, you can see the formulas behind reality.
Divine:
This one is easy, you are your god's weapon in the world, defending his interest, smithing his enemies and protecting his people.
Martial:
Also easy, this is all about training your body to peak physical condition and mastering fighting technique.
Primal:
These classes are all about communion with the spirits of the earth, manifested through them. THeir power doesn't come from an understanding of the energies that flow trough them but a symbiotic-like relationship with them.
Psionic
This is all about earning such a level of self control and awareness that your own body or mind can perform feats that the rest of the world sees as magical. Think martial, but more introspective.
Qi (ki) ideas can be melded with Primal, psionic, or divine as appropriate to the particular class. There's no need to round up the Asians in a separate book again.
The thing is, none of these line up very well. For example, the astral sea has a hell of a lot in it that has nothing to do with divinities, including the plane of dreams, which is normally associated with psionics.
I can put if the rest of my definitions, if there's any interest.
They may not line up perfectly, but that is the source/location connection WotC has basically been giving us.
- the Scholar: Tactlords, Wizard, Swordmage
These guys are the nerds, they study and research the power source and can do complex things with it. - the Kinsmen: Fighter, Druid, Paladin
They eat, sleep and breath the power source, they dedicate their lives to embodying it in as many aspects as they can. - the Fan: Cleric, Bard, Shaman, Inspirelords
They're loud, they're proud, they really love their power source, and their power source really loves them to, it's almost like they're pen pals. - the Inductee: Warlock, Invoker, Warden
Some signed up by choice some got drafted in either way they can't back out now, at least they get some neat powers. - the Radicle: Avenger, Rogue, Bravelords
Classes within the same powersource don't even like these guys, but they get the job done, their way. - the Natural: Ranger, Barbarian, Sorcerer
The Scholar has to work the most for their powers, these guys don't work at all, some of em don't even know they're in a power source.
Hard to say where Monk fits in until we know more about Psionics; if they're like old Psionics the Monk would be a Radicle, and if Psionics are more like Ki now then they would be Kinsmen.
It's by no means perfect or complete; there is some overlap, for example the Bard is also somewhat a Kinsmen and a Radical. And no one setup could work for everyone because we all have different ideas about each class, so it works best when you do it on your own terms.
But it helps when trying to come up with the new Primal and Divine classes; like Divine has no Natural and Primal has no Radical and neither have a Scholar, so right there I have four classes to think of:
A Primal Scholar... Wu-Jen?
A Primal Radical... Witch?
A Divine Scholar... Archivist?
A Divine Natual... Avatar?
[*]the Fan: Cleric, Bard, Shaman, Inspirelords
They're loud, they're proud, they really love their power source, and their power source really loves them to, it's almost like they're pen pals.
The way you wrote that sounds so much like a cheer, I love it. "we're loud, we're proud, we love our power source!"
"To challenge me is to challenge fate, your defeat is already written in the pages of time"
I had an interesting thought earlier today. For a divine class, the heretic. Essentially a person who has managed to tap into the raw energy of the astral sea without the use of the rituals that are normally required to start the conduit due to the Far Realm invasion. I haven't really thought the mechanics out, but it sounded cool in my head.:D
Sounds more like a villain/monster idea.
Sounds more like a villain/monster idea.
There is nothing inherintly villiany about it. The character just bypasses the normal checks that limit the Divine Power source to the clergy. However those checks don't do anything to keep bad guys out as there are plenty of evil dieties willing to give power to their followers. And while they may recieving their power as a result of the Far Realm, Starlocks already do so(in a much more direct manner) and they aren't relegated solely to the villian role.Perhaps the name could be better, but I think it can work.
There is nothing inherintly villiany about it. The character just bypasses the normal checks that limit the Divine Power source to the clergy. However those checks don't do anything to keep bad guys out as there are plenty of evil dieties willing to give power to their followers. And while they may recieving their power as a result of the Far Realm, Starlocks already do so(in a much more direct manner) and they aren't relegated solely to the villian role.Perhaps the name could be better, but I think it can work.
Maybe renaming would help. I always preferred to think starlocks used astrology and positive rainbow energization...
Maybe renaming would help. I always preferred to think starlocks used astrology and positive rainbow energization...
Ah but heretic is such an awesome word(and honestly the class idea came from my desire to call someone on the forums a heretic for some reason....and then my brain jumped around a bit till I got that). Besides it isn't like all heretics are evil, I mean look at Copernicus. He was pretty cool....although I don't think he is a good base for the class. :P
Yeah I like that, maybe mix in some of the above mentioned Fated class, the more I think about it the more I like it. I would put it into The Natural category as well.
"I call apon the strength of my ancesstors, strength forged by Moradin himself!"
PH2: Primal
PH3: Psionic
PH4: Shadow (Speculated)
PH5: Elemental (Speculated)
PH6: Nobody knows.
2008 FRPG: Swordmage - arcane
2009 EPG: Artificer - arcane
2010 ????: ???????? - Possibly martial
Bel
Heya folks. I'm back. Something to note. There are no 'shadow' classes yet. Does that mean like Ki, the Shadow source is getting nibbled up by Divine/Arcane/Primal? Or is Shadow going to be a 'optional' sub-type that might be covered on it's own?
Mike Mearls said on the RPGnet forums that Shadow and Elemental are still coming. It seems their doing a one new source a year strategy.
PH3: Psionic
...And many aberrant creatures have psionic powers, hence the general connection between the Far Realm and PH3. But is that affirmed more directly by the devs anywhere? I can't find where it's first posted about. I'm asking because it colors speculation on the Primal and Divine classes to be included in PH3.
...And many aberrant creatures have psionic powers, hence the general connection between the Far Realm and PH3. But is that affirmed more directly by the devs anywhere? I can't find where it's first posted about. I'm asking because it colors speculation on the Primal and Divine classes to be included in PH3.
It was mentioned in the Wilden Playtest:
As we worked on Player’s Handbook 3, we spent a lot of time thinking about the story of the D&D world we wanted to use as a theme for the book. It turned out that the killoren story fit pretty well with the idea of
the Far Realm’s continuing intrusion into the world,which we wanted to play up throughout the book.
Thus was born the race of wilden. Instead of preserving nature against the spread of civilization, the wilden preserve it from a much more deadly and significant threat—which actually fits well with themes we established in Player’s Handbook 2. (Primal characters, too, are opposed more to the alien monsters of the Far Realm and the corruption they represent than to any humanoid despoiling of nature.)
If the theme was just “incursion” in general, I was thinking that perhaps Shugenja, sometimes described as “seeking out imbalances in the elements,” might be included in PH3 to balance out spill over from the Elemental Chaos or something like that. I thought it might be neat if they lent a divine stability to wild elemental forces, sort of like how the gods lent stability to the elemental form of the world. (That’s if they ended up as their own class and in the Divine power source, of course.)
If it’s just the Far Realm, though, maybe not.
PS (Looks like we’ve got the PH3 Psion coming in July! :D )
I'd prefer Shugenja and Wu Jen as Elemental, but I have a feeling they have some really cool idea they're keeping hidden from us on what Elemental will be, to the point that none of us can figure out what it might be like. If Shugenja isn't elemental, I'm seeing it as Primal. Divine doesn't really deal ever with the "Elements." Yeah, sometimes with divine lightning, or divine fire, but usually just with radiant or necrotic energy.
I would rather see some sort of Miko/Shinto Priest or Buddhist Monk divine class that deals with seals and purifications.
Honestly, Shugenja feels more Primal than Divine.
I'd prefer Shugenja and Wu Jen as Elemental
I'm in agreement here. On Primal that's just my opinion as well, and on Elemental as tops the only hesitation is the lack of details as you mentioned. I was just trying to think of how the class might be squeezed into PH3, and the most compelling idea I thought of was the divine one. Even then, it still has nothing to do with the Far Realm, so I doubt it will come up RAW. I'm just tinkering with Shugenja stuff is why this has been on my mind so much.
I had an interesting thought earlier today. For a divine class, the heretic. Essentially a person who has managed to tap into the raw energy of the astral sea without the use of the rituals that are normally required to start the conduit due to the Far Realm invasion. I haven't really thought the mechanics out, but it sounded cool in my head.:D
Ah, I see you too have come up with that cool name. My idea for the Heretic was to be an Elemental Leader though, not Divine, as they would be individuals who had forsaken the gods in favor of the Primordials. The "Primordial priest" concept, essentially. Came up with a few minor mechanics, but nothing major yet. Grad school has been keeping me busy and unable to design much new stuff. :P
I would guess that a more offensive Paladin called a Templar is what we'll see as far as Divine goes.
Released
Martial - No surprises here; these are the classes that Don't Use Magic. Not overtly, in any case.
Arcane - Formulaic magic. If you know the formula, you can cast the spell.
Divine - Abilities granted by a diety. Belief is immaterial. Prayers are abilities which, once granted via ritual or direct intervention, become a permanent part of the recipient, much like a Dragonborn's breath.
Primal - Powers granted by a relationship to the Spirits. Easy enough.
Coming soon - Predictions
Psionics - Any power that is created by an act of will, whether focused through disipline, thought, emotion of belief.
Shadow - Powers granted by exposing yourself to death. Basically, shadow-users become part-undead.
Elemental - The summoning and binding of elementals.
For those who are interested; Behold! Definitions!
Released
Martial - No surprises here; these are the classes that Don't Use Magic. Not overtly, in any case.
Arcane - Formulaic magic. If you know the formula, you can cast the spell.
Divine - Abilities granted by a diety. Belief is immaterial. Prayers are abilities which, once granted via ritual or direct intervention, become a permanent part of the recipient, much like a Dragonborn's breath.
Primal - Powers granted by a relationship to the Spirits. Easy enough.
Coming soon - Predictions
Psionics - Any power that is created by an act of will, whether focused through disipline, thought, emotion of belief.
Shadow - Powers granted by exposing yourself to death. Basically, shadow-users become part-undead.
Elemental - The summoning and binding of elementals.
The arcane definition works for the Wizard, Swordmage, Bard, and Artificer, but gets a bit blurry for the Warlock and Sorcerer. I'd guess in those cases the formulas are either innate and inborn (for the Sorcerer) or taught by an otherworldly power (for the Warlock).
The arcane definition works for the Wizard, Swordmage, Bard, and Artificer, but gets a bit blurry for the Warlock and Sorcerer. I'd guess in those cases the formulas are either innate and inborn (for the Sorcerer) or taught by an otherworldly power (for the Warlock).
It seems to me that the Arcane power source is about formula and rigorous study, as mentioned above. As has been noted, the Warlocks are a bit odd there, but taking your view -- that the otherwordly powers teach the Warlock arcane formulae -- seems fair. If nothing else, the knowledge required to petition the entities to strike a pact seems pretty arcane
Sorcerers still break the mold. But it seems to me that they're meant to be the exception that proves the rule. By not having to study to acquire their power, they throw into contrast their fellow arcanists who do. Of course, if one doesn't like the sorcerers breaking the rules that much, it's pretty simple to say that basic powers come to them naturally, but they must study -- the same as all the other arcanists -- if they wish to gain true control over their arts.
The arcane definition works for the Wizard, Swordmage, Bard, and Artificer, but gets a bit blurry for the Warlock and Sorcerer. I'd guess in those cases the formulas are either innate and inborn (for the Sorcerer) or taught by an otherworldly power (for the Warlock).
I would describe them as such. For Warlocks, someone else knows the formula, they just draw/use the power. For Sorcerers, they've tapped into the answer to the formula, but didn't write it down.
If Wizards excel in studying how to cast spells, Warlocks excel in channeling them from another source, and Sorcerers excel at "Use the Force, Luke".
As for the definitions, it feels like you're describing one branch of Shadow. You can have all sorts of "dark" and "stealth" and "shadow" abilities, justify yourself as drawing from the Shadow power source, and have nothing to do with death or the undead. You're describing the power source as "You are part Necromancer", when a Ninja, Assassin, and Hexblade could all be Shadow classes without the undead aspect. (ignoring the "Rogues/Assassins cover all possible aspects of the Ninja, and it doesn't need it's own class" arguments)
The Elemental definition seems too narrow as well, and is one I've seen more commonly used around here. Okay, binding/controlling elementals seems like a default. But I've always thought it was pretty obvious that the Elemental power source draws from the Elemental Chaos (and possibly the Abyss), as opposed to just "the elements and elementals". You need that distinction to pull it away from the other power sources, justifying it's own existence.
Then you could have classes like a demon binder, and a "Cleric of the Primordials" (draws power from them the way clerics draw from the gods of the Astral Sea), the elemental summoner/binder (I think it'd be cool and fitting to use mixed elements like the MM elementals, giving us a flaming tornado charge power, and an aura power that's a dust storm, as opposed to simple "fireball" and "tornado" and "earthquake" one-element powers), and so on.
On the thought of classes for the PHB3, I'd like to see a Primal class that focuses on plant control. Maybe add some weather in. As opposed to someone who draws from the spirits of nature, this is someone who has lived with it long enough to manipulate it directly. He's not like, dominating/brainwashing nature; it's a more peaceful manipulation. But still, it's more "power over nature" than "power from nature".
As for a Divine class, I'd like to see a Fatespinner. Someone who bends fate to help himself, but might also "enforce" fate on his opponents. Draws power from the Astral Sea, but doesn't necessarily get his power directly from a god. If he worships a god, then he's going about and bending fate towards his god and that god's works/desires, and bending fate away from the god's foes. So a Fatespinner of the Raven Queen would be more inclined to "enforce fate" on those that cheat death to support the Raven Queen, but wouldn't lose his power if he himself chose to cheat death. (he might need a new deity to worship, and the Raven Queen certainly might not like him anymore, but ultimately he serves Fate, not a her)
As for the definitions, it feels like you're describing one branch of Shadow. You can have all sorts of "dark" and "stealth" and "shadow" abilities, justify yourself as drawing from the Shadow power source, and have nothing to do with death or the undead. You're describing the power source as "You are part Necromancer", when a Ninja, Assassin, and Hexblade could all be Shadow classes without the undead aspect.
Not necromancers. Exposed to death. This includes near-death experiances, deliberate exposure, and murdering a whole mess of people. A ninja, for example, might gather power by killing.
In any case, this isn't supposed to define what a source can do, only how it does it.
The Elemental definition seems too narrow as well, and is one I've seen more commonly used around here.
Really? Because I can think of 4 distinct classes focused around binding elementals without even trying hard.
The "Primordial Cleric" is one of the few classes that can't exist, simply because it'd be pretty much impossible for a primordial cleric to multiclass with any of the divine classes.
Not necromancers. Exposed to death. This includes near-death experiances, deliberate exposure, and murdering a whole mess of people. A ninja, for example, might gather power by killing.
In any case, this isn't supposed to define what a source can do, only how it does it.
Okay, I see where you are coming from. I was reading it more like "you got hit by a necrotic bolt of energy, and now you have all these powers", which might actually work for a Necromancer's backstory, but felt kindy iffy for any others.
Really? Because I can think of 4 distinct classes focused around binding elementals without even trying hard.
The "Primordial Cleric" is one of the few classes that can't exist, simply because it'd be pretty much impossible for a primordial cleric to multiclass with any of the divine classes.
4 classes? I just can't see a way to split "binding elementals" into more than one class without resorting to such things like tying a single element to a class (earth defender, fire striker, etc), which just doesn't fit the feel of "Primordial Chaos".
And yeah, balancing the "Primordial Cleric" with Divine classes would be a neat thing to accomplish. He could draw power indirectly, so that the Primordial doesn't take his powers when he goes Divine. That'd kinda give us the "ultimate double agent" for generic D&D. Looking through flavortext, a Primordial Invoker would be more fun. (it'd be cool to multiclass or be a hybrid of a Primordial Invoker and the Invoker itself; the end result is "you were touched by the warring factions of creation, and can draw power from both")
To be honest, if we get any Elemental classes drawing power from the Elemental Chaos that actually do draw power from the Primordials, it'd be neat to see how they balance that with Divine abilities. I don't think they want to invoke rules like "you can't be both", but basic lore seems to suggest that.
4 classes? I just can't see a way to split "binding elementals" into more than one class without resorting to such things like tying a single element to a class (earth defender, fire striker, etc), which just doesn't fit the feel of "Primordial Chaos".
Names have been provided to protect the innocent:
Avatar:Light armour wearing, weaponless Defender. Binds elementals to his flesh (demonbinder would be a PP or refluff). Marks via save-ends DoT. Every extended rest he chooses a damage type per tier, with his powers dealing those types.
Monolith: Heavy armour wearing striker. Binds elementals to his equipment. At-wills grant stances which define what damage types his other powers use.
Sha'ir: Controller. At-wills conjure elementals. Encounter spells are close bursts/blasts which use the conjured elemental as a starting point, taking thier damage type from the conjuration. Daily powers would be divided up between encounter-like attacks and Summon effects.
Shugenja: Leader. Summons elementals through his allies. Powers would be energy attacks with standard leader rider effects, with a class feature allowing him to use buffed allies as the origin for his attacks.
There, four classes themed around Summoning/Binding. They're not original, and probably not very good ideas, but I never said they were :D
I would guess that a more offensive Paladin called a Templar is what we'll see as far as Divine goes.
It's possible there's a "T" class left over from an older concept for PHB 2. ;)
(For those who came late to the party: back when we were still wondering about the PHB2, a designer gave us hints in the form of the first letter of the classes' names - when the book was released these hints didn't exactly match up, there was a "T" missing and we got an "A" instead.)
Axio: did you get the idea of the avatar class from Avatar, the Last Air Bender anime?
No, I've neither seen it, nor know what it's about. Well, I know the main character is a bald kid who bends things. That's it though.
The class inspired by the 3.5 Elemental Savant and Demonskin Adept presige classes, and the Binder base class from the Tome of Magic. I took the name from the Ultima series because I think it sounds neat.
It's possible there's a "T" class left over from an older concept for PHB 2. ;)
(For those who came late to the party: back when we were still wondering about the PHB2, a designer gave us hints in the form of the first letter of the classes' names - when the book was released these hints didn't exactly match up, there was a "T" missing and we got an "A" instead.)
Which could mean they changed the name from Templar to Avenger.
I think we're in greater need of a ranged Divine Striker, rather than another melee one.
Melee Striker's
Ranger
Rogue
Avenger
Barbarian
Monk
Ranged
Ranger
Rogue
Warlock
Sorc
For Primal we could do with a conceptually different Leader/Controller or Striker
Psychic. Well... Monks already confirmed of course... As is Psion (but not its role) and the existance of a class called Empath.
Monk - Striker
Psion - Controller... lots of domination, stuns and other status effects
Empath - Leader. Keeps the team happy, healthy and utterly emotionally unshakable in battle. Fear? What's that?
Wilder - Controller... explosions! surges of crippling psychic pain!
Divine. I know a lot of you will disagree with this but I live in hope of evil divine support sooo...
Heretic or Firestealer - Leader A good idea of Ranadiels and as he pointed out not one which need be inherantly evil. Mechanically they could channel the powers of the guards parisitically to grant themselves and their allies greater strength and abilities.
Blackguard - Defender. C'moooon... its time... channeling the divine energy of the gods into darkness and spite to rival the paladins radiance and hope. His hateful taunts and edged with the divine fury of his god to cripple his foes confidence and their very soul.
Primal. Like divine we already have all four roles covered, so its about how new primal classes can do their jobs differently...
Witches - Controller. Curses might make them a bit too close to the Warlock BUT a big part of the Witch will be the primal shapeshifting abilities... turned upon foes! HAVE FUN WITH POLYMORPH!
Warshaper - Striker. The Primal's Guard-dog. The Warshapers abilities shift its shape a bodypart at a time, making for a constantly changing and adaptive threat .
So yeah, those are my speculative guesses. A few i think are quite likely and a few i know are just my own wishful thinking.
Each class should have its own unique niche and thematic. Hopefully there won't be any classes which are thematically identical to another class except for its power source, role, or alignment. This might become more difficult to achieve as the power sources grow, however.
Despite being introduced back in 3e with Magic of the Incarnum, it always felt like a primal class. Though I don't know what they'd need to do to the class to make it feel different from the Druid. It could possibly be a defender.
While I don't think there will be too much more "V" classes like the Cleric and Warlock which have a couple different primary ability scores for powers depending on build. I think that if there is going to be another "V" class, it'll probably be the Psion as the 3.0 Psion was like that.
I hope you're wrong. I very much preffer "V" classes, as they give you a much more interesting tension between ability scores, and it's easier for them to multiclass into many other classes.
The PH2 didn't include any, and that made me a sad PC
In any case, I really don't see how you could think that the Psion was a "V" class: there was absolutely no reason to have any score bigger than intelligence.
The monk, on the other hand, could perfectly be a "V" type class, with Strength and Dexterity as primary scores, and Wisdom as the secondary one.
I hope you're wrong. I very much preffer "V" classes, as they give you a much more interesting tension between ability scores, and it's easier for them to multiclass into many other classes.
The PH2 didn't include any, and that made me a sad PC
In any case, I really don't see how you could think that the Psion was a "V" class: there was absolutely no reason to have any score bigger than intelligence.
The monk, on the other hand, could perfectly be a "V" type class, with Strength and Dexterity as primary scores, and Wisdom as the secondary one.
One of the issues with the "V" class, however, is that character builds within the class itself tend to be less flexible due to the need for additional primary stats. A "balanced" build utilizing both ends of the "V" would be stretched thinner statwise as a result.
A possible solution might be to have some powers available that can be used by both sides of a "V" class. For instance, some psion powers might let you choose either INT or CHA as its prime stat for attack rolls.
A possible solution might be to have some powers available that can be used by both sides of a "V" class. For instance, some psion powers might let you choose either INT or CHA as its prime stat for attack rolls.
Reasonable, and already done, I think, with a couple of warlock powers. What could be really cool is to go a different route from the ranger. When he does that now, it's Str-melee or Dex-range. But it's possible to make it so the effect rider for the power is based on the attack stat used.
Theoretical example:
Psion
Wisdom is used as the primary stat for the Scanner build, whose powers are subtle, based upon reading the intent of foes and responding against them.
Charisma is used as the primary stat for the Reacher build, using his powers to more directly hijack the abilities and actions of others.
Intelligence is used as the primary stat for the Planner build, whose powers reflect taking a broader approach to solving problems, including combat.
Certain powers would look normal, representing powers somewhat uniquely one style's methods. At least two new patterns emerge, however:
#1: The attack stat is listed as "any mental attribute". Thus, it's a power that every psion can access. It has different tags based off of the stat used:
Encounter * Psionic, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Any Mental Attribute vs. Will
Wisdom: This attack is vs. the lower of Will or Reflex.
Hit: 1d8 + attribute modifier psychic damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
__ Charisma: This attack deals 2d6 + Charisma modifier psychic damage instead.
__ Intelligence: Each enemy adjacent to the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
#2: The attack has the "any mental attribute" attack line as before, but there's a set rider, so it's ideal for one type of Psion, but available for others that use it as a balanced stat or strong primary.
Daily * Psionic, Implement, Psychic, Reliable
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Any Mental Attribute vs. Will
Hit: 3d4 + attribute modifier psychic damage, you slide the target 3 + Wisdom modifier squares and may have it make a basic melee attack against an enemy within reach, with a bonus to the attack roll equal to your 1 + your Charisma modifier.
While not as great for a Planner, if he had decent Wisdom and Charisma scores, it'd still be nice, but it becomes very handy for a Scanner or Reacher: if the stats are balanced, it's a good move and a big hit, while a high Charisma makes it better for tight formations and a high Wisdom is better for spread fights.
I doubt this will be done, because it seems to stretch the complexity of the system a bit much, but I think it could be really awesome if balanced right.
One of the issues with the "V" class, however, is that character builds within the class itself tend to be less flexible due to the need for additional primary stats.
That's hardly an issue for classes that are well supported; Warlock for example has plenty of powers to choose from regardless of what stat you use and there is still more support for the class in the future. Where as with A shaped classes, no matter how many powers they get from new books and articles, they will still only use one attack stat which means less race choices and multiclass choices than V classes.
The Warlock already covers the witch motif. The classic witch from history, according to the early christian church anyway, made pacts with demons, spirits and other suernatural beings to gain access to magical power. I built a human male "Witch" for our homegame when 4E first came out. There was some misconception that a male witch is a warlock and a female witch is a witch. This is a fallacy. The term Warlock was invented by the witch-hunters of the middle ages, mostly out of ignorance, and was never used by any wiccan, male or female. The root word for Warlock comes from a corrupted latin word and means "one who betrays." Male and Female wiccans both call themselves Witch, the term is not bound to gender in any way.
Personally, I'd like to see the Cavalier class make a comeback in 4E. I liked back it in 1st and 2nd Edition. The ulimate mounted knight and swordsmen. The classic Knight in Shining Armor or Black Knight if one is so inclined.
Personally, I'd like to see the Cavalier class make a comeback in 4E. I liked back it in 1st and 2nd Edition. The ulimate mounted knight and swordsmen. The classic Knight in Shining Armor or Black Knight if one is so inclined.
Which will not be in the PHB3 since it's not Psionic, Divine or Primal. And is easily covered by having another fighter build.
I saw someone say they wanted to see a "witch" class in PH3.
The Warlock already covers the witch motif. The classic witch from history, according to the early christian church anyway, made pacts with demons, spirits and other suernatural beings to gain access to magical power. I built a human male "Witch" for our homegame when 4E first came out. There was some misconception that a male witch is a warlock and a female witch is a witch. This is a fallacy. The term Warlock was invented by the witch-hunters of the middle ages, mostly out of ignorance, and was never used by any wiccan, male or female. The root word for Warlock comes from a corrupted latin word and means "one who betrays." Male and Female wiccans both call themselves Witch, the term is not bound to gender in any way.
Personally, I'd like to see the Cavalier class make a comeback in 4E. I liked back it in 1st and 2nd Edition. The ulimate mounted knight and swordsmen. The classic Knight in Shining Armor or Black Knight if one is so inclined.
WotC might use historical definitions for inspiration, but never as a stricture. If they want to make a witch class, they'll find a way to do it, regardless of any etymological similarities to the term 'warlock'. However I do suspect that it will show up in PHB3 or not for a long time. Primal seems to be the best power source for it.
Cavaliers may show up; whether they do depends on whether the R&D team at Wizards decide that there's enough conceptual space to make them worthwhile through three or four builds.
That said, I think we're going to see a lot of previous "Ki" classes in Divine like the Shugenja. But who knows? (Besides WoTC)
I saw someone say they wanted to see a "witch" class in PH3.
The Warlock already covers the witch motif.
Only in name, and cursing.
It covers parts of the Witch motif, a primal controller would clearly be very different to the Warlock and not focused on arcane magic.
Whilst I do think there will be an alternative Primal Controller (and Leader and Striker), I don't know if it will be called a Witch, but it may draw on Hexes and curses of a different nature to the Warlocks extra damage mechanic.
Psionic
Monk - Striker we know that
Psion - Controller, telepathy and telekinesis type builds maybe
Empath - Leader, good for saves
Psychic Warrior - Defender
Primal
Witch - Controller
Totemist - Ranged Striker, calls on spirits to attack
Divine
Crusader - Ranged Striker
Templar - Defender creates wards and zones.
Ugh, I hate how they're making another pair of divine and primal classes. Martial has only 4 classes, and yet divine and primal are going to have 6? I think it's just going overboard, and I'm just afraid of having classes with very little reason for existing other than to simply take up space in the book...
We don't actually know how many of each are being made.
Ugh, I hate how they're making another pair of divine and primal classes. Martial has only 4 classes, and yet divine and primal are going to have 6? I think it's just going overboard, and I'm just afraid of having classes with very little reason for existing other than to simply take up space in the book...
On the flip side, the Martial Classes will have the most options for them with the Powers books.
Ugh, I hate how they're making another pair of divine and primal classes. Martial has only 4 classes, and yet divine and primal are going to have 6? I think it's just going overboard, and I'm just afraid of having classes with very little reason for existing other than to simply take up space in the book...
Divine and Primal have room for more class archetypes. All the Martial archetypes are already filled by the 4 martial classes, or can be a build of. To make another martial class is really to turn a build into a class. It's better off as a build or as a feat chain partial-class like Gladiator or Dhampyr (really a half-race, but yeah).
Besides, Arcane already has 6 classes. There's no reason to think that any power source besides Martial will stay with 4.
I'm looking forward to them. There's so many concepts that haven't been filled. Like a divine archer - like Mikos in anime such as Inuyasha. A character that buff, purifies, and debuffs with arrows. Could overlap with an Exorcist, using either a bow as an implement or sutras (seals).
That's something that can't be covered by any existing Divine Classes.
Onmyouji, Exorcist, Miko, Shugenja, these are all concepts that can't be filled by Cleric, Avenger, Paladiin, or Invoker. Shugenja could be Primal or Elemental though.