The Psion has an interesting mechanic; instead of encounter powers, he gets more at-wills than other classes, and can pick up higher-level at-will powers later on. He also gets a pool of power points per encounter, which he can use to "augment" -- that is, upgrade -- one of his at-wills into the equivalent of an encounter power. I like that mechanic; the psion has mastered using a few talents at various different levels of power rather than an array of totally disparate spells.
The Monk has a twist too, but a different one; in his case his at-wills and some encounter powers let him do some sort of special movement in addition to the attack, but that special movement costs a move action.
Now, the really interesting thing is a feat that came with the Psion, "Exchange Power". With it, under certain circumstances the Psion can give one of his power points to another character who has the Power Points class feature. Obviously this wouldn't make much sense if only psions had those, so that strongly suggests that all the other psionic classes will share the Power Point mechanic. They may not share the Augment mechanic; that may be a psion thing. But it's a sure bet they have power points that do something.
So, speculation:
STRIKER
In the PH2, we saw a full set of four primal classes, one for each role. The PH3 will probably follow the same route. However, since the Monk is a sort of late addition, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see two Psi Strikers presented -- the Monk, and a psi-point-using class.
What would he be? Probably the Soul Knife. This is a class that's been languishing since it was first written. Most everyone has the same opinion of it -- "Interesting flavor, shame the mechanics suck so bad." The 3.5 version of it is clearly a striker already -- the mindblade's charge-and-release cycle fits perfectly with the damage spike concept, he's a little sneaky, he's lightly armored, and he's very mobile. The only problem was that he didn't fill the rogue's role very well in 3.5 (having no thievery or trapfinding abilities), but he also couldn't stand up in a fight to take the Defender role in place of the fighter/paladin/psywar. He wound up as a fifth wheel, much like the monk and, to some extent, the ranger -- the dreaded "skirmisher" role (which means "you can be the fifth guy after we have the other four filled").
But now that "trapfinder-thief" has been divorced from the Striker role, there's actually a good spot for the SK to come back. He doesn't even need to change much, conceptually -- the world has changed to fit him rather than the other way around. If he is indeed a power point user, and I suspect he will be, I could see having the power points control his damage spike (though that would probably require him to have more of them early on and fewer later as compared to the psion). Or he might use them to perform special moves like running on the walls, some of the things he could do in 3rd edition with the Psionic Focus mechanic and appropriate feats.
DEFENDER
The Psychic Warrior was kind of a "nothing special" class in 3 and 3.5. He was a fighter that got psionic powers instead of bonus feats. He was a defender, but kind of a boring one. Later we saw the "mantle" mechanic in a different sort of psi defender, one that felt like a psionic paladin as opposed to a psionic fighter. If they chose to update the former, it would require pretty much writing the class whole-cloth and just slapping the name on, so I rather hope they don't do that. The name "psychic warrior" never hit me the right way anyway.
I really don't have many ideas of what could happen here. The psi defender seems pretty wide-open at this point; there's a lot of directions they could go, but whatever it is, it will have to feel different from the existing four defender classes, which might be a little tough to pull off. If you go with a heavily armored weapon focused class, it'll feel like a fighter (or pally if he has leaderlike powers). If you go light armor, it'll feel swordmagey.
One interesting idea I had was a defender that doesn't use awesome weapons -- a defender who uses simple weapons could be an interesting twist, empowering basic spears, quarterstaves, or maces with the power of his mind. I'm not sure how well that would play, though, since you'd basically have to force the player to stick to simple weapons rather than take the feats to upgrade.
I'll be very interested to see where they go with this.
LEADER
It's easy enough to see where psionics gets into leadership. You're throwing mind effects around already, so going to morale and healing isn't that hard. (The healing in this case would probably be flavored as reinforcing the body and reducing pain.) The main thrust of the class will probably be forging mental networks that help your allies work together better, or something like that.
Any thoughts from the rest of you?
Being one of the few Incarnum fans in existence, I'm interested in the psion's power point mechanics because they provide something of a benchmark for homebrewed essentia mechanics. It's not a far step from using power points to augment at-wills to using those points, say, to mark targets or squares of terrain.
My observation is somewhat tangential.
Being one of the few Incarnum fans in existence, I'm interested in the psion's power point mechanics because they provide something of a benchmark for homebrewed essentia mechanics. It's not a far step from using power points to augment at-wills to using those points, say, to mark targets or squares of terrain.
For the record, I liked the concept of Incarnum, it's just the mechanics sucked. (Too many little bonuses all over the place rather than big strong benefits, mostly. And having bound melds shut off your items was just punitive -- do wizards have to turn off their magic cloaks to cast their best spells?)
You're right though. It looked to me like one power point is generally worth about one die of damage, with a slight drop in efficiency as you go up levels. You can see from some of the 'normal' powers how various effects relate to damage dice -- when you can compare a 2[w] power to a similar 3[w] power of the same level, for example.
The fourth class will either be a defender or a second striker. I'm going to side with defender, as another striker (such as the soulknife or lurk) can easily be saved for a future handbook.
Which ones will have power points? Aside from the psion, at least one and possibly two. If there's more than one psionic character in a group, they're far more likely to be of differing roles than the same one, and a psion who has that point-exchange feat (I forget the name) will want a decent chance of being able to use it.
I <3 Incarnum
On Topic:
I agree with Empath[Leader], Psychic Warrior[Defender] to flesh out the 4 new source classes. Curious to see if monk gets an overhaul or tweaking to feel more psionic-y with the unveiling of power-points.
Even more curious about the 2 new each (rumored to be) primal and divine source classes, assuming PHB III follows the pattern of II.
The Soulknife, on the other hand, seems to be quite popular. I'm not sure how they played in 3.x (I built a low level Soulknife but it was a one-shot), but I'll bet they would be neat if converted to 4E (essentially a weapons based class with a mutable weapon). I could maybe see it being converted into Defender, but previous incarnations have been more skirmisher type combatants that fit perfectly into the Striker role.
So two Strikers, a Controller, and a Leader. So what if there's no Psionic Defender (in PHB3 at least)? Martial doesn't have a controller, and I'm sure they could make up for the Defender deficiency by putting 2 Defenders in the book: a Primal one and a Divine one.
That'll make the Empath class I made for Implement Games a bit moot...but oh, well. I'll still play it at home. It's a fun class.
For the record, I liked the concept of Incarnum, it's just the mechanics sucked.
For me, the only problem with incarnum is that they gave it its own 128-page book to describe what should have been just one more chapter in Tome of Magic. It could even be done in roughly a paragraph, with an italicized header that reads: Magic, with blue stuff.
On direct topic: My speculation for classes in another thread was shot down because I suggested "two-word name" classes like favored soul and psychic warrior and witch doctor. Folks are under the impression that base classes can only have one-word names. History supports this trend, but I am not convinced it is a designer rule.
You can all but pencil in "Empath - Psionic Leader" as a class. There's a possibility that it won't be called "Empath", but there'll definitely be a leader.
Sounds like a fine name to me. I can only imagine what they'll do to make it distinct from the other leaders. I really liked the final version of the Artificer, with his ability to effectively transfer healing surges from one person to another -- I always felt like the leaders should have some differentiation between their healing powers. For example, if I'd been designing it, the Warlord would give you a surge plus some defense bonus, rather than a surge plus 1d6 just like the cleric. The PH2 leaders did do some differentiation, with bards doing less healing but adding a slide, and Shamans throwing some of the healing to somebody else, and I appreciated that, but the Artificer was the first leader to really turn the whole thing on its head -- and I like it!
The fourth class will either be a defender or a second striker. I'm going to side with defender, as another striker (such as the soulknife or lurk) can easily be saved for a future handbook.
Thusfar we've seen no new classes released in the Power books, and I can't imagine they'd hold back one psionic class for the PH4. The PH2 was "the book with all the Primal stuff in it", and this one is going to be "the book with all the psionic stuff".
Edit: Actually, y'know, until you mentioned it I'd totally forgotten about the Lurk. (Appropriate considering its role..) I don't think it'll be one of the updated classes. The lurk was never anything but a "psionic rogue". He had some interesting mechanical choices to differentiate from a traditional rogue, but I never got the sense that he had a real personality of his own. He was just a different mechanical presentation of an existing concept. In 4e terms, I suspect a rogue multiclassing into one of the psionic classes will be all you need to create a "lurk-like" character. In my opinion, at least, the Soul Knife has a lot more traction than the Lurk ever did.
Which ones will have power points? Aside from the psion, at least one and possibly two.
Well, I suspect all but the monk will. On the first full page of the Psion preview (it's marked as page 6), Andy said, "this is
the first class to embrace a key new mechanic shared by most psionic classes... augmentation". The monk is probably the only reason he said "most" rather than "all".
I'm not saying it's likely or even that it's the best decision, but personally I think it'd be great to round off the Psionic roster with the Soulknife (Striker) and Empath (Leader). I've gotten the sense from reading these boards that most people find the Psychic Warrior boring... (does anybody like this guy? Feel free to speak up...)
No, nobody really did. But that's kind of my point, "big heavy armor guy with a sword who uses psionic power" isn't what people hated; it was the implementation that made the PsyWar suck, the fact that he was, as you said, a lesser version of the Fighter who could buff himself.
Like Nautilus says, it's not that we hate psionic defenders. That's where I was going with this, what would you like to see, conceptually, in that particular combination of role and power source?
I kind of have an interesting idea running around in my head of a guy who basically uses precognition to become the ultimate "spoiler" defender -- Once he marks you (focusing his psychic powers on you, in particular), he knows your every move and has a suite of interrupts that he can use to counter you, like shifting to get in your way when you try to move around him, taking attacks in the stead of his allies, and so on. (For example, it might let you shift one as an immediate action when your marked enemy tries to enter a square that's two away from you, thus putting you in the position to OA him if he continues to move.)
I can't imagine they'd hold back one psionic class for the PH4. The PH2 was "the book with all the Primal stuff in it", and this one is going to be "the book with all the psionic stuff".
We've already been told the PH3 will have a primal character in it. So holding one back has an established precedent. I can imagine they'd hold back one psionic class for the PH4. I just don't think they should.
We've already been told the PH3 will have a primal character in it. So holding one back has an established precedent. I can imagine they'd hold back one psionic class for the PH4. I just don't think they should.
I'd go so far as to say 2 psionic classes in either PHB IV or V; further keeping with precedent of 4 new, 2 and 2 'old' source classes.
Thusfar we've seen no new classes released in the Power books, and I can't imagine they'd hold back one psionic class for the PH4. The PH2 was "the book with all the Primal stuff in it", and this one is going to be "the book with all the psionic stuff".
More accurately, the PH3 will showcase the psionic power source, just as PH2 did for primal. There'll be more primal classes in PH3, and for that reason, I think PH4 will include additional psi classes.
Wizards has a good resource when they're looking for inspiration: all the psionics material released throughout the game's history. Sure, a lot of it was crazy broken (especially the 2e stuff) but it still constitutes a thorough exploration of psi concepts. If they can't put together six psionic classes from that, there's something wrong with them.
I kind of have an interesting idea running around in my head of a guy who basically uses precognition to become the ultimate "spoiler" defender -- Once he marks you (focusing his psychic powers on you, in particular), he knows your every move and has a suite of interrupts that he can use to counter you, like shifting to get in your way when you try to move around him, taking attacks in the stead of his allies, and so on. (For example, it might let you shift one as an immediate action when your marked enemy tries to enter a square that's two away from you, thus putting you in the position to OA him if he continues to move.)
I really like this idea! It could have Leader as a secondary role and telepathically communicate likely enemy actions to its allies, thus granting them bonuses. This would make for a very interesting Defender which doesn't really fit with any source except Psionic.
Any plans to homebrew this class?
For class themes I'm fond of mind reading and future seeing ideas. I remember a prestige class based on mind-reading which would probably work going the Soulknife way and become a base striker class now. Not that I have anything against the Soulknife of course.
We've already been told the PH3 will have a primal character in it. So holding one back has an established precedent. I can imagine they'd hold back one psionic class for the PH4. I just don't think they should.
From what's been said and what's been previewed, I'm pretty sure the plan was for PHBIII to be the psi/ki handbook. It ended up psi/divine/primal because ki got killed and the works in progress for it became psionic, divine and primal classes. I don't think they really deliberately held back primal classes, even though I agree it makes a lot of sense from WotC's point of view.
I predict there wont be a 4/2/2 pattern in PHBIII, I think it'll be 5 psionic classes and then one or two for each divine and primal. That'd be one class for each role using power points, and one monk.
If this is the case, I kind of wish Ki had been saved, and they'd just made the Monk Ki and left it at that. Admittedly it would prove problematic for splat books (the Monk splat book is out, buy it now!) but he's likely to feel very left on the side.
I really like this idea! ...
Any plans to homebrew this class?
A side order of leader is not a bad idea, as long as it's the tactical rather than healer side of leadership (where the Pally is the other way around, really).
I don't have any plans for a homebrew yet; I wouldn't really want to even get started until I find out what they're cooking up for the PH3. Even if they don't go for this concept, it might work as another build option*.
* like the Warlock's Pact or the Wizard's Implement Mastery. What IS the generic term for those class-altering options?
One thing I just wanted to throw out there; I was thinking about marking mechanics for a psionic defender, and how it could differ from all the other marks. What I came up with is this; what if instead of marking enemies, you "mark" an ally instead, and then any enemy who hits that ally takes the usual penalty, and some additional effect (like maybe they take psychic damage and get slid 1 square or something). It wouldn't be a "mark" in the traditional sense, of course, but it sort of builds on the idea of having a psychic link between you and your allies. So, for example, maybe there could be a variant of the first mark that lets you mark enemies your chosen ally attacks?
This is way to open for abuse. You could just run one of those classes and say a fighter. The fighter marks the mob and the psionic defender marks the fighter. Now said mob is boned no matter what he does.
I dont like it, sir.
One thing I just wanted to throw out there; I was thinking about marking mechanics for a psionic defender, and how it could differ from all the other marks. What I came up with is this; what if instead of marking enemies, you "mark" an ally instead, and then any enemy who hits that ally takes the usual penalty, and some additional effect (like maybe they take psychic damage and get slid 1 square or something). It wouldn't be a "mark" in the traditional sense, of course, but it sort of builds on the idea of having a psychic link between you and your allies. So, for example, maybe there could be a variant of the first mark that lets you mark enemies your chosen ally attacks?
This seems to be along the lines of Psionics as a whole, IMO. Indirect marks rather than direct ones might be introduced to the system. Of course you could still see the Mark an enemy, if that enemy attacks anyone but you they take a penalty type marks too.. doubtful but its still a minor possibility.
Another possiility for a Psionic Defender Mark, is to be able to redirect an attack of a marked opponent - a-la It attacks an ally but instead the attack goes to one of its own allies instead of yours, provided you marked that enemy in the first place. Or it could take psychic damage if attacking anyone aside from you. So many different possibilities.
One thing I just wanted to throw out there; I was thinking about marking mechanics for a psionic defender, and how it could differ from all the other marks. What I came up with is this; what if instead of marking enemies, you "mark" an ally instead, and then any enemy who hits that ally takes the usual penalty, and some additional effect (like maybe they take psychic damage and get slid 1 square or something). It wouldn't be a "mark" in the traditional sense, of course, but it sort of builds on the idea of having a psychic link between you and your allies. So, for example, maybe there could be a variant of the first mark that lets you mark enemies your chosen ally attacks?
Interesting idea. The only problem is that the psychic defender is limited to being able to defend one charge at a time. Other defenders give the penalties for attacking anyone, but the defender. It also requires a new mechanic because you cannot use the marked condition. I highly doubt that this would be the case. Then I didn't think they would come up with a class that has no encounter powers.
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The psychic warrior may be boring and not well liked in 3.5. If this is the case, then 4E presents an excellent opportunity to make a better psychic warrior. They have made great improvements on many existing classes, so there is no reason they would not be able to make a 4E psychic defender that is as interesting to play as other defenders.
What I would like to see from the psychic defender or any defender is the ability to defend at range. If you allow a defender to have good ranged attack powers, you would really need a mechanic to balance it out. Perhaps the marking power also makes the target mark the defender. It could be some type of psychic focus where both the defender and his marked target get -2 to hit anyone but each other. This way, the defender is still forced to focus his ranged attack powers on his marked target instead of elsewhere.
(It could always change, though. Hope not!)I imagine the empath will be a big user of power points alongside the psion, perhaps with a stronger power points sharing mechanic. OTOH, power points for a defender seem like less of a shoe-in...or maybe I just think it would be odd to have the striker not use power points while the defender does. Power points could be one way to differentiate the psionic defender from the others, but some other distinguishing features would be needed as well.
Interesting idea. The only problem is that the psychic defender is limited to being able to defend one charge at a time. Other defenders give the penalties for attacking anyone, but the defender. It also requires a new mechanic because you cannot use the marked condition. I highly doubt that this would be the case. Then I didn't think they would come up with a class that has no encounter powers.
That would be the point; instead of protecting all your allies, you focus on defending one particular ally (preferably the squishiest one) whom you most want to protect. It would give things a more personal feel, especially if you account for the roleplaying opportunities of the whole "I will protect you with my life" shtick. Maybe the character you protect is your lover, or a best friend, or maybe you just can't concentrate on defending more than one person (a scatterbrained psionic, perhaps)?
As for the marking mechanic; that's why I used quotations. More accurately, it would be something like this:
"Empath" doesn't just sound nice...one of the devs mentioned it specifically as a leader class. That's why it's been floating around in discussion.
I imagine the empath will be a big user of power points alongside the psion, perhaps with a stronger power points sharing mechanic. OTOH, power points for a defender seem like less of a shoe-in...or maybe I just think it would be odd to have the striker not use power points while the defender does. Power points could be one way to differentiate the psionic defender from the others, but some other distinguishing features would be needed as well.
True, the Psychic Warrior's power list is a lot smaller than the Psion/Wilder. Perhaps it could have some levels where it learns augmentable at-wills like the other psionics, and other levels where it learns encounter powers like the standard classes? I think that would fit in with the Psychic Warrior's basic concept; "I'm a Fighter with mind powers!lol!"
I could see a striker class that does +2 per power point spent damage when augmenting a power, +3 and +4 per power point at later tiers. And get a bonus to something else like to hit or AC when they are out of power points.
I predict that the Shaper will be a new build in Psionic Power, with plenty of zone and duration effects as the augmentables, and summoning for the dailies.
For a marking mechanic, hopefully we'll get something that looks like this:-
That would be the point; instead of protecting all your allies, you focus on defending one particular ally (preferably the squishiest one) whom you most want to protect. It would give things a more personal feel, especially if you account for the roleplaying opportunities of the whole "I will protect you with my life" shtick. Maybe the character you protect is your lover, or a best friend, or maybe you just can't concentrate on defending more than one person (a scatterbrained psionic, perhaps)?
While I don't think this necessarily couldn't work for a base class, I think it would be very useful mechanically as a "Bodyguard" Paragon Path open to defenders. Otherwise, "I protect you above all!" seems better as good fluff.
True, the Psychic Warrior's power list is a lot smaller than the Psion/Wilder. Perhaps it could have some levels where it learns augmentable at-wills like the other psionics, and other levels where it learns encounter powers like the standard classes? I think that would fit in with the Psychic Warrior's basic concept; "I'm a Fighter with mind powers!lol!"
Ha! Hopefully, though, they will not fall into the "I'm a fighter + x" rut. I wonder if we could have a "caster" defender who doesn't rely on weapons...? I ask in general, but regarding psionic classes this might be a close range TKer or something. (But yeah, I know there's already going to be a TK Psion.)
The Ardent is a good name for a Psionic defender. The class was pretty lame, but it's got a nice name
For a marking mechanic, hopefully we'll get something that looks like this:-
Ha! Hopefully, though, they will not fall into the "I'm a fighter + x" rut.
God, I hope not. I don't think they will, at any rate, since you could easily just be a fighter with a multiclass if you really want that.
I wonder if we could have a "caster" defender who doesn't rely on weapons...?
Yeah, that sounds like it could be interesting. Sort of like what I was saying before about a defender who uses simple weapons. I think it would be fun to have a defender who doesn't depend on a shield or a massive weapon.
Yeah, I liked the Ardent a lot, but mostly because it seemed like a cool version of a divine caster with a great name!
Am I the only one who thought "ardent" was kind of a second-rate name? I never thought "passionate" very well gave me the sense of a psionic defender.
Hmmm.Maybe the Empath will take the Wilder's stuff.............
I expect so -- a lot of the Wilder's stuff would be fairly leaderish if you spread it among your allies -- the Surging Euphoria effect in particular would be a great ally boost.
Yeah, that sounds like it could be interesting. Sort of like what I was saying before about a defender who uses simple weapons. I think it would be fun to have a defender who doesn't depend on a shield or a massive weapon.
Yup.
Am I the only one who thought "ardent" was kind of a second-rate name? I never thought "passionate" very well gave me the sense of a psionic defender.
Perhaps that's why I felt it was very divine-ish.
I expect so -- a lot of the Wilder's stuff would be fairly leaderish if you spread it among your allies -- the Surging Euphoria effect in particular would be a great ally boost.
Empath power: Ball of Sunshine. You make everyone around you smile! +1d4hp. Lol. I'm eagerly awaiting the class.
It really plays with action ecomomy... do you want to overwrite your own mark with a new one? Do you want to charge, or will you let that third mark lapse in order to move adjacent and use a better power?
(As an aside, I'm glad they explained monks & psionics the way they did...it's what I was thinking too! :D)
Future psionic classes will highlight "flexible options" and will not be especially hampered by mindless undead. (Presumably the undead will just take psychic damage, right?)
(As an aside, I'm glad they explained monks & psionics the way they did...it's what I was thinking too! :D)
If they do it just right in PHB3, they might convince a lot of the more stubborn DMs to allow psionics in their settings. I think they can do it.
A psionic character fueled by raw emotion. Perhaps the dailies will have the "outburst" keyword, providing an ongoing effect similar to a barbarians rage.
Rage can manifest itself physically and emotionally, leading me to believe there might be two possible builds. A melee one that focuses on his Soulblade, a weapon that is a manifestation of raw emotion, or a close and area blast version based on psychic screams, mental outbursts and waves of fear.
Of course, jsut pure speculation there.
I imagine the leader would be some kind of Empathic Healer as everyone else has said.
And for the defender I would like to see something like the psychic warrior, but with more of a focus on the old skool psychometabolism non-weapon powers attacking NADs i.e Acidic touches, beast claws, mixed in with a selection of weapon vs AC powers. Precognitive strike, Inertail blade. etc etc (minus the pseudoscience names of course)
Most importantly I hope the build has non-str primary. Possibly wisdom, with a con/int secondary.
I'm of the opinion that the psionic striker will be something like The Wilder.
It bothers me slightly that people keep assuming there's some other Psionic Striker. The Psionic striker is the monk. Even if there's another one (Which I highly doubt, but I suppose is possible, just like 2 defenders, leaders, or controllers would be), it would be "one of the psionic strikers".
I think the Empath is fairly confident vote, only shaken a little by the Telepathic stuff of the Psion.
I am still hopeful of while maybe having its own class, but seeing Mindblade being a feat-tree as well. So multiple different Psionic classes could have their own Mindblades (be quite helpful for the Monk).
If they can figure out some manner of Precognitive ability type stuff. That I think be great for a Defender. Guy about to swing down to hit a ally, the Psionic class grabs his arm, shakes his head and mind blasts, stabs, whatever the guy. Perhaps something where you activate a Discipline and on the enemies turn stop their attack and counter attack. Perhaps using Power Points to do this more then to just one PC but multiple ones.
If they can figure out some manner of Precognitive ability type stuff. That I think be great for a Defender. Guy about to swing down to hit a ally, the Psionic class grabs his arm, shakes his head and mind blasts, stabs, whatever the guy. Perhaps something where you activate a Discipline and on the enemies turn stop their attack and counter attack. Perhaps using Power Points to do this more then to just one PC but multiple ones.
Precog defender stuff has been bandied about a bit, but not until now did I feel it was viable. Stopping the attack mid-strike is cool and defenderish. Your mark is basically focusing on an enemy and pre-empting all his/her strikes, plus some icing. Voila.
If they do it just right in PHB3, they might convince a lot of the more stubborn DMs to allow psionics in their settings. I think they can do it.
Psychometabolism stuff would be neat. Though I imagine they will be something that could be/will be eaten up by the Monk (hopefully carrying along pseudoscience terminology along with (I so hope there is a Class Act or in Psionic Power a focus on bringing that feel back more)).
Unfortunately, I think these are incompatible goals. The pseudoscience flavor text is what so many people loathed about 3.x psionics (and 2nd to some extent), and in the Psion preview Andy specifically commented, "Unlike previous versions of psionic powers, we want these powers to sound fantastic, not scientific."
It sounds like they're trying to cut out the scientific-sounding stuff to help more players get comfortable with psi.
I am still hopeful of while maybe having its own class, but seeing Mindblade being a feat-tree as well. So multiple different Psionic classes could have their own Mindblades (be quite helpful for the Monk).
If he's a psi striker, I could totally see that being his multiclass feat. I mean, it'd almost have to be -- you could hardly be a soulknife multiclass and yet be unable to generate a mindblade...
It bothers me slightly that people keep assuming there's some other Psionic Striker. The Psionic striker is the monk. Even if there's another one (Which I highly doubt, but I suppose is possible, just like 2 defenders, leaders, or controllers would be), it would be "one of the psionic strikers".
Obviously when we say "the psionic striker" we're talking about the one whose name we don't know yet. In any case, by their own admission the monk is a late entry to the psi classes, so it's very likely they already have a second psi striker in the works, and as I said in the OP -- the soulknife was practically a 4th edition striker back in 3rd edition, so I'll be pretty shocked (and disappointed!) if they don't update him in the PH3.
"You dare hurt my friends? Oh, it is On!"
Regarding the mark above, I like the immediate augment idea.However, combined with using it power point free and gaining combat advantage the mark altogether is a bit strong, no?
Probably too strong. The CA can be removed pretty easily though.
The point is that a mark that simply augments the defender's normal attacks would allow for a vast amount of character concepts.
I've seen various ideas for telepathic, telekenetic or precognitive defenders, but they all seem a little narrow for my tastes.
Obviously when we say "the psionic striker" we're talking about the one whose name we don't know yet. In any case, by their own admission the monk is a late entry to the psi classes, so it's very likely they already have a second psi striker in the works, and as I said in the OP -- the soulknife was practically a 4th edition striker back in 3rd edition, so I'll be pretty shocked (and disappointed!) if they don't update him in the PH3.
I suppose that is true. Still, they said there'd be three classes that use the Power Points, and to me, that sounds like Psion, -Defender-, -Leader-, and Monk. If there's another Psionic Striker, you have to decide which one doesn't fit. And from the article describing the story of psionics, it sounds like the monk's the only odd-man-out (And hardly one of those at all, really). I'm really hoping a lot of the Soul-Knife gets put into the defender. Maybe not the mechanics, but the whole "blades of mind-power" thing.
I picture a fighter being afraid of a dragon (Frightening Presence), for example, and the Empath choosing to take the effect instead. It's an odd effect, and really flavorful when you imagine the Empath concentrating on the Fighter, then a look of terror comes over his face, while the Fighter fights on.
I have it in my head that the Empath will have abilities that allow it to take on negative effects from allies, while having high defenses, HPs, etc.
I picture a fighter being afraid of a dragon (Frightening Presence), for example, and the Empath choosing to take the effect instead. It's an odd effect, and really flavorful when you imagine the Empath concentrating on the Fighter, then a look of terror comes over his face, while the Fighter fights on.
Or perhaps the Empath is a conduit? Takes the Frightening Presence from the Fighter and the Dragon gets hit by its own effect.
Or perhaps the Empath is a conduit? Takes the Frightening Presence from the Fighter and the Dragon gets hit by its own effect.
Maybe through augmentation.
Maybe through augmentation.
*Nods* Ooo, it be neat actually if perhaps the Empath could using a two Power Point augmentation, contain/no longer get effected by the effect (though still have it). Then use second Power Point when they wish to send it to a enemy, so you could trigger this when you wish not just when your ally gets hit.
If they can figure out some manner of Precognitive ability type stuff. That I think be great for a Defender. Guy about to swing down to hit a ally, the Psionic class grabs his arm, shakes his head and mind blasts, stabs, whatever the guy. Perhaps something where you activate a Discipline and on the enemies turn stop their attack and counter attack. Perhaps using Power Points to do this more then to just one PC but multiple ones.
Surely this could be done with a close burst marking mechanism that allows you to make a basic attack as an immediate interrupt sort of like the Swordmage.
Have one of the builds be weapon based, so they can use a melee/ranged basic attack. The other build could be implement based with a specific power that can be used as a basic attack, mind blast sounds good, causing psychic damage, or a "Force Push" TK power.
If they could somehow figure out long term stuff too would be neat. It be more metagaming, but if say they had their own special Class Ritual where they can look farther into the future and gleam information (from DM) or a bonus for future combat, or something.
He could get a +2 to Insight and diplomacy (think Troi from Star Trek).
I imagine a Precog Defender would have huge boosts to Initiative as well. Perhaps stuff like can't be surprised and what not. Perhaps if they manage to get to go first in Initiative they can give some encounter long bonus or initial round bonus or some such.
If they could somehow figure out long term stuff too would be neat. It be more metagaming, but if say they had their own special Class Ritual where they can look farther into the future and gleam information (from DM) or a bonus for future combat, or something.
Sounds like some good Utility Powers to me.
I suppose that is true. Still, they said there'd be three classes that use the Power Points, and to me, that sounds like Psion, -Defender-, -Leader-, and Monk. If there's another Psionic Striker, you have to decide which one doesn't fit. And from the article describing the story of psionics, it sounds like the monk's the only odd-man-out (And hardly one of those at all, really). I'm really hoping a lot of the Soul-Knife gets put into the defender. Maybe not the mechanics, but the whole "blades of mind-power" thing.
I'd just like to point out that (from what I've read), Soulknives didn't actually have the ability to manifest powers. Therefore, if only 3 of the four psionic classes are using the pp system, then Soulknife is the obvious one to leave out in the cold.
I suppose that is true. Still, they said there'd be three classes that use the Power Points, and to me, that sounds like Psion, -Defender-, -Leader-, and Monk. If there's another Psionic Striker, you have to decide which one doesn't fit.
Yeah, I know. I was a little disappointed when I read that. But on the other hand, the SK hardly needs power points, and had no power-point-using abilities in 3.x, so he could be included as a non-augmenting psi. On the other hand, that would mean both psi strikers were non-aug, which is a little odd-ish, and I certainly interpreted the statement to mean "four psionic classes, one of which is the monk". But it could've been ambiguously worded on purpose.
Even if they don't do the class, I could see him as a variant of the monk, or as a paragon path.
And from the article describing the story of psionics, it sounds like the monk's the only odd-man-out (And hardly one of those at all, really). I'm really hoping a lot of the Soul-Knife gets put into the defender. Maybe not the mechanics, but the whole "blades of mind-power" thing.
One of my early ideas was that the SK might be a strikerish defender, or even one of the psi defender's build options (choose between, say, glowy mindblade and some other benefit with a traditional weapon), but I kind of hope not -- I just think the class works better as a mobile striker.
I'd just like to point out that (from what I've read), Soulknives didn't actually have the ability to manifest powers. Therefore, if only 3 of the four psionic classes are using the pp system, then Soulknife is the obvious one to leave out in the cold.
Umm, the class that doesn't use Power Points is the monk, remember?
i think telepath/empath is pretty solid for a leader.
i also think youll see the first toying with a party benefit for everyone having the same power source. the power points pool seems to suggest this.
Umm, the class that doesn't use Power Points is the monk, remember?
Missed the point.
We don't know for certain that there are only four psionic classes in the book. Since Monk was a late addition to the Psi power source, it's reasonable to assume that they had another psi striker already in the works, possibly based on the Soul Knife, which is what we were discussing.
But in the Psi dev article, he said there were three power-point-using classes. We already know the monk is excluded, so if there are in fact five psi classes in the PH3, that still leaves one of the four original psi classes who is not using the augment mechanic.
Clear?
It's not unreasonable to assume the SK would be a non-augment class, though. He had no psi powers in 3.x, and only one power point (necessary as prereq to using psi feats), so there's no historical reason to make him use augments. And since he's really a focused weapon user who just uses an odd weapon, it would make sense if his powers "looked" more like a martial class's than a psion's.
Missed the point.
We don't know for certain that there are only four psionic classes in the book. Since Monk was a late addition to the Psi power source, it's reasonable to assume that they had another psi striker already in the works, possibly based on the Soul Knife, which is what we were discussing.
But we don't know that the monk was a late addition. We know that the monk wasn't originally planned as being psionic, but that doesn't mean that the decision to make it psionic occured late in the development process. For all we know, the monk was moved over to being psionic before any development was actually done on any of the other psionic classes. We just don't know anything for sure about the development timeline in relation to the monk, psionics, and PHB3. I imagine we'll be able to piece it together once we know all the classes, but until then any theory that is based on the monk being or not being made psionic late in development is standing on potentially weak legs.
Here's what we know:
1) There are 3 power-point classes, and 1 that's not. (so far as we know)
2) The monk doesn't use power points.
There's no reason at this point to assume there's more than 4 psionic classes in the book, simply because you want the soulknife there, and think it won't have power points. Remember 4e is not 3.5. They can do whatever they want when it comes to designing the classes. Look what happened to the Druid. If the Soulknife is there, it's likely to be a striker or defender (if they move away from the Psychic Warrior), probably using power point augmentation, given the new way that Psionics works.
They made the first statement (above) while talking about the finished product, which includes the monk. If the soulknife isn't there, it'll probably show up as a class in another sourcebook, or as a way to alter existing characters (feat tree, MC feat, Paragon Path,etc.).
But we don't know that the monk was a late addition.
Right, which is why this thread is called speculation.
For all we know, the monk was moved over to being psionic before any development was actually done on any of the other psionic classes.
Suppose it was, then. Is there a rule that says they can only have four classes in the book for any given power source? The first PH had two martial strikers. All we know for sure -- all we know -- is that there are three Augmenting classes. Thus the speculation thread.
Obviously there may be only four classes, but there's nothing we've heard to support four psi classes as opposed to five, other than the fact that he said there are three augmenters and we can see that the monk is not.
until then any theory that is based on the monk being or not being made psionic late in development is standing on potentially weak legs.
I would argue that any theory based on interpreting a minimum as a probable maximum is equally weak.
There's no reason at this point to assume there's more than 4 psionic classes in the book, simply because you want the soulknife there, and think it won't have power points. Remember 4e is not 3.5. They can do whatever they want when it comes to designing the classes. Look what happened to the Druid. If the Soulknife is there, it's likely to be a striker or defender (if they move away from the Psychic Warrior), probably using power point augmentation, given the new way that Psionics works.
Oh, I know there's no real support for a fifth psionic class, but honestly there's little or no support for there being only four classes. From information we have to this point, we can know the minimum number of psionic classes, but there's no reason to assume that the minimum is in fact the correct answer. WotC has shown long since that they feel no particular compulsion to fill out every role for every power source, nor that they feel they can only have one of each role/power source combination.
And since the SK wasn't a power point user back in 3rd edition, there's a strong argument for its fourth edition implementation also not using the augment mechanic, which would allow it to still stay within the "only three augmenters" limitation.
They made the first statement (above) while talking about the finished product, which includes the monk. If the soulknife isn't there, it'll probably show up as a class in another sourcebook, or as a way to alter existing characters (feat tree, MC feat, Paragon Path,etc.).
Right, that's what I was saying a page or two back. I hope it's a class of its own, but I could see it showing up as one of those other methods. I could certainly see it as a rogue "multiclass" (like the blowgun feats, where it takes your multiclass slot despite not being an actual multiclass), though I think that would be a pretty limited implementation of the concept.
As I was saying in the first post, the SK has had a lot of fan support since its original introduction. I don't think any other class has had as many complete rewrites in as many different hands. It's always been seen as a cool concept that didn't quite work, so it would be a shame if they didn't produce an official version of the class now that its concept and its mechanics will work.
Right, which is why this thread is called speculation.
Yeah speculation is fine and all, but the portion I was responding to with that bit was worded as though it were fact and not speculation.
I would argue that any theory based on interpreting a minimum as a probable maximum is equally weak.
A good thing that isn't what the theory of four psionic classes is based off of then. Instead it is based off of pattern recognition from the first two PHBs.:P Now whether that pattern hold, well we'll just have to see.
I say make it the defender, and let its marks drive psychic spikes into its targets. You could even have it spend a pp as an interrupt when the mark triggers to have even more whacked out effects (immobilized, blinded, unconscious, whatever).
That would be super-cool, IMHO.
Psion (controller)
Psychic Warrior (Defender)
Soul Knife (Striker)
Empath (Leader)
Paragon Tier
Illithid Slayer (if Githyanki is a new core class)
Metamind (multiclass)
Thrallherd
Warmind
Epic Tier
Psion Uncarnate
Mindlord
I can't wait for 4e psionics! I finally get to run eberron! Just not the same without them.
I think it's very likely that there will be a Paragon Path called "Zerth Cenobite" since the Githzerai are confirmed as a race.
Yeah, probably as a racial PP.
Although I am not a DDI subscriber and don't have the inside info, I'd like to place my guesses.
Psion (controller)
Psychic Warrior (Defender)
Soul Knife (Striker)
Empath (Leader)
Paragon Tier
Illithid Slayer (if Githyanki is a new core class)
Metamind (multiclass)
Thrallherd
Warmind
Epic Tier
Psion Uncarnate
Mindlord
I can't wait for 4e psionics! I finally get to run eberron! Just not the same without them.
I have no particular bet one way or the other, except that if they adhere to at least one pattern from the previous books, I'm willing to bet that "Psychic Warrior" won't be the name of the defender. As best i can recall, there are no two-word class names*. :D
* Instead, they jam two words together, like Swordmage.
I have no particular bet one way or the other, except that if they adhere to at least one pattern from the previous books, I'm willing to bet that "Psychic Warrior" won't be the name of the defender. As best i can recall, there are no two-word class names*. :D
* Instead, they jam two words together, like Swordmage.
I guess we'll have the psychicwarrior and soulknife then. :P
I would prefer a different name than the psychic warrior anyway. This name sounds too general and bland. It's like calling the paladin the divine warrior or the fighter the martial warrior.
I would prefer a different name than the psychic warrior anyway. This name sounds too general and bland. It's like calling the paladin the divine warrior or the fighter the martial warrior.
That would be if it was the "Psionic Warrior". As Psychic Warrior, it's more akin to:
Paladin - Religious Warrior
Fighter - Fighty Warrior
Warden - Dudehejustturnedintoatree! Warrior
Warden - Dudehejustturnedintoatree! Warrior
That would be the "Turny" Warrior, thank you. :D
On topic, I think soulknife is not outside the realm of possibility, but as for the defender...I dunno. Ardent is...possible? But it's getting used heavily in Divine Power, which took "ardent strike" already.
Bel
Has anyone given thought to the idea that the soulknife could be the other build for the Monk? Not really up on Psionics classes, so I could be way off.
Bel
After reading about how the monk's unarmed attack was "a weapon that could be enchanted like any other with a +# proficiency bonus" I thought it was really obvious that the soul knife would get sucked into the monk. I mean, isn't it? How easy would it be to make the soul knife a Build, Class Feat, or Paragon Path with that kind of groundwork already set up?
Kung-Fu Monk: Special fist that are enchanted as weapons.
Soul-Knife Monk: Special mind blades that are enchanted as weapons.
It's already a striker. Sure, it might not be that way, but it just seems to be really obvious. The soul knife didn't have 'powers', neither does the monk. The soul knife had their own innate weapon, so does the monk. I have trouble seeing the soul knife as not a monk build.
A good thing that isn't what the theory of four psionic classes is based off of then. Instead it is based off of pattern recognition from the first two PHBs.:P Now whether that pattern hold, well we'll just have to see.
What pattern? That there were 4 martial (two being strikers) in the first PH and 4 primal in the second? You have to conveniently ignore the two-and-two arcane and divine for that, not to mention ignoring the campaign settings (with one arcane class each).
In any case, two data points doesn't make a pattern.
What pattern? That there were 4 martial (two being strikers) in the first PH and 4 primal in the second? You have to conveniently ignore the two-and-two arcane and divine for that, not to mention ignoring the campaign settings (with one arcane class each).
In any case, two data points doesn't make a pattern.
Why do we have to ignore any of that stuff? PHB1- 3 Power Sources 8 classes divided into 4/2/2
PHB2- 3 Power Sources 8 classes divided into 4/2/2
PHB3- 3 Power Sources ? classes divided into ?/?/?
FRPG- 1 class
EPG- 1 class
??PG- ? class(es)
We currently do not have any information that contradicts the possibility of the pattern holding for PHB3(or for the next player's guide for that matter), so it is entirely valid to speculate that they will be keeping the 4/2/2 class break down.
I was fully expecting that psionics will follow the same at-will/encounter/daily power structure of all the other classes. Then WotC threw a curve ball when the released the psion. I'd say all bets are off. Just because the previous PH books had a 4/2/2 distribution of classes in the various power sources doesn't mean that they would continue to adhere to that same distribution.
I can handle new power systems. I can even handle minotaurs in a PHB. I CAN'T HANDLE IT IF THEY CHANGE THE RATIOS!
I have trouble seeing the soul knife as not a monk build.
Yeah, that's a possibility. I mentioned it earlier, in the context that if that's what it is, it'll probably be a paragon path.
Yeah, I know. I was a little disappointed when I read that. But on the other hand, the SK hardly needs power points, and had no power-point-using abilities in 3.x, so he could be included as a non-augmenting psi. On the other hand, that would mean both psi strikers were non-aug, which is a little odd-ish, and I certainly interpreted the statement to mean "four psionic classes, one of which is the monk". But it could've been ambiguously worded on purpose.
Even if they don't do the class, I could see him as a variant of the monk, or as a paragon path.
One of my early ideas was that the SK might be a strikerish defender, or even one of the psi defender's build options (choose between, say, glowy mindblade and some other benefit with a traditional weapon), but I kind of hope not -- I just think the class works better as a mobile striker.
I knew I'd seen the idea somewhere!
Bel