Discussion?
"Points of Light" now includes Ravenloft, Planescape(?), and Spelljammer. Just three less campaign settings to see on the shelves in place of others, but at the same time see core support for. BRILLIANT!
All I can say is that I saw that coming.
"Points of Light" now includes Ravenloft, Planescape(?), and Spelljammer. Just three less campaign settings to see on the shelves in place of others, but at the same time see core support for. BRILLIANT!
You know what? I think it's just dandy that way, anyway.
Those were all really cool aspects of D&D, but they don't really seem to fit the current definition of "campaign setting"; they just haven't got the breadth. I would say that they all fit on the tier directly below "campaign setting", right alongside Oriental Adventures; they're all settings that really seem to attach to other settings, rather than stand on their own.(I'm also completely sure that someone will come along with perfectly valid reasons for 100% disagreement with everything I just said. Oh well, c'est la vie.)
Will we see spelljammer toys with action D&D figures?
Does anybody know the campaing of "age of adventures" from d20 past?
You know what? I think it's just dandy that way, anyway.
(I'm also completely sure that someone will come along with perfectly valid reasons for 100% disagreement with everything I just said. Oh well, c'est la vie.)
Well, actually, I agree with you (except for Ravenloft, which is actually a world of its own, and thus should be a seperate campaign setting).
Well, actually, I agree with you (except for Ravenloft, which is actually a world of its own, and thus should be a seperate campaign setting).
For Your Information, Ravenloft is one of many Demiplanes of Dread, which is another clue to their planar, non-material nature.
/snark
But seriously folks, this is a good idea. Take the campaign settings that were created for their mechanics (spelljammer and ravenloft) and the settings that were only thematic changes to other settings (oriental adventures and al-qadim) and just make em core. That way, WotC can still support them without having to publish books specifically for that purpose, which only subdivides their audience and makes me spend more money.
Good for them, good for us.
Maybe I'm wrong and I hope I'm wrong. ha.
For Your Information, Ravenloft is one of many Demiplanes of Dread, which is another clue to their planar, non-material nature.
/snark
But seriously folks, this is a good idea. Take the campaign settings that were created for their mechanics (spelljammer and ravenloft) and the settings that were only thematic changes to other settings (oriental adventures and al-qadim) and just make em core. That way, WotC can still support them without having to publish books specifically for that purpose, which only subdivides their audience and makes me spend more money.
Good for them, good for us.
Agreed! And good call regarding Al-Qadim; I had forgotten about that one! I think we can add Maztica and and that setting about pirates to the pile, too.
I dunno and I hate to burst the bubble but from what I got out of that is it seems that npcs and creatures in general could get there with a spelljammer (maybe from converting your 2nd ed char to a 3rd ed then from 3rd ed to 4th ed or something) it didn't mention anything about how there will be spelljammers in 4th ed for sure tho.
Maybe I'm wrong and I hope I'm wrong. ha.
Well, the main reason I'm going to discount this theory is that there's not really much precedent for references. Through most of 4E, they've simply retcon'd things that don't fit, rather than bother with trying to reconcile various editions.
Additionally, if NPCs can get around by spelljammer, why not PCs?
Nothing personal, Wolfie; I just think that it's a lot more likely that this IS an indication that 4E will include some treatment of spelljammers as a mode of planar travel.
But seriously folks, this is a good idea. Take the campaign settings that were created for their mechanics (spelljammer and ravenloft) and the settings that were only thematic changes to other settings (oriental adventures and al-qadim) and just make em core. That way, WotC can still support them without having to publish books specifically for that purpose, which only subdivides their audience and makes me spend more money.
Good for them, good for us.
I like this idea. :D
For Your Information, Ravenloft is one of many Demiplanes of Dread, which is another clue to their planar, non-material nature.
I'm well aware of this, though 'world of its own' was a bit misleading. Actually, I just wanted to say that, imo, Ravenloft doesn't really fit with well-established campaign settings like FR or Eberron, that already got their own flair and style. On the other hand, some of those 'campaign settings' you speak of are located on Toril. So different flairs already mix up on Toril.
I'm well aware of this, though 'world of its own' was a bit misleading. Actually, I just wanted to say that, imo, Ravenloft doesn't really fit with well-established campaign settings like FR or Eberron, that already got their own flair and style. On the other hand, some of those 'campaign settings' you speak of are located on Toril. So different flairs already mix up on Toril.
First, I apologize for the overt snark. I intended to make that apparent and failed.
Second, my point in mentioning Oriental Adventures and Al-Qadim was to underline that they are deviations of the theme of FR, and should be folded into core. Given that there are to be no more expansions on the FR setting other than modules, this may be the only way any of us would see these types of settings.
Al-Qadim means, roughly "The ancient" or "The old." However, again we run into idiomatic problems, as it carries the same connotations as "musty," "moth-eaten" or "overripe." Oops.
Link.
Must admit, I'm not familiar with the Spelljammer "setting," but as a vehicle I like 'em.
1. Serious: Buck Rodgers + Star Trek + Star Wars + Niven + Heinlen + Asimov + Herbert. Asteroids with ruined iron mines, spiders making webs between asteroids, worlds completely covered in oceans and populated by undead, etc. It had a huge science fiction influence, but with 19th century astronomical theories and sailing ships a la Baron Munchausen and lots of animal-shaped ones) instead of TIE fighters or rockets.
2. Goofy: ELVES IN SPAAAAACE!!! With Krynnish Gnomes breeding giant space hamsters to run their ship by running in their wheels. A mind flayer planet with tarrasques being the dominant surface species. You get the idea.
3. Crossover/Transitive: Faerun PCs hitch a ride on a Spelljammer to get to Krynn because the planar gates connecting the two are cut off for whatever reason.
I always like the non-standard planets like toroids, discworlds, liveworlds, crescent worlds, and Dyson sphere-like crystal spheres. Let your imagination run rampant and you get the idea.
I've been thinking, spelljammers and airships are 4 squares by 8 squares. That's TINY if I'm right at guessing they're the standard 5-feet per square. Even if it's just the gondola, an airship is 20 feet wide, 40 feet long, and 40 feet high (assuming 10 feet between decks).
Why the tiny size? Where's the room for living quarters, laundry, the galley, cargo, and food storage, let alone room for training, crafting, etc.? Unless they're going Viking longship style, where it's really cramped. I'd say it's a far cry from an elven armada or even a hammership.
A Spelljammer supposedly carries 30 people or 40 tons and a crew of six (5+captain), in 800 square feet per deck. And now they cost 3 million gp to boot!
That's TINY if I'm right at guessing they're the standard 8-feet per square.
Err... You're right, they are tiny. Strange.
That won't fly when we get to Eberron. They'll have to revise the numbers for it, given the larger/different airships.
Spelljammers are powered by magical 'helms' (as in ship helm, not headgear though on some spelljammer vessels that's the form they take) that use psionic, arcane, divine, or lifeforce energies to power. There was also a city-sized manta ray looking vessel known as The Spelljammer that had a mysterious purpose and unknown method of travel. It was Spelljammer's equivalent of Sigil and the Lady of Pain.
What Spelljammer did was modify the cosmology so that all the campaign settings were in a single Prime Material but in seperate crystal spheres. Dieties generally could only affect the insides of one of these spheres if they had at least one worshipper there, so for many clerics this was a 'missionary' adventure hook. Also the gods in control of a sphere could attempt to 'lock down' the sphere to prevent outsiders from getting in, or those in it from getting out.
Krynn (tinker gnomes), Toril (Lantan and Waterdeep especially), and Oerth all had spelljamming technology and ports. Athas was a closed sphere.
They had rules for designing planets and moons as well as how things wokred in different spheres. One sphere the planet(s) may be flat surfaces on the backs of turtles while others fit our modern-day astronomical behavior and definition.
Many races had spelljamming fleets and empires. Notably so where illithids, elves, and gnomes. They added some new races as well that were focused on spelljamming society (traders, military, pirates) and rarely found inside a crystal sphere unless on a spelljamming vessel.
It was definitely an interesting concept and environment and I think works well as a planar travel method in 4e's cosmology taking it beyond just a way to travel between planets in the Primes.
Core = a planet in 'Nature' (aka the plane of the 'Natural World', 'Mortal World', 'Prime Material Plane', 'Midgard', 'Middle Earth')
Forgotten Realms = another planet in Nature?
Eberron = another planet in Nature?
Dragonlance = ?
Norse/Sami/Celtic = a region on which planet? (Alfaheim/Sidhe Courts = Feywild) (Jotunheim = Elemental Chaos?)
Greek/Roman = ? (Nymphs/Satyrs/Cyclops = Feywild)
India/Shri Lanka/Thailand = ?
Japanese/Chinese/Korean (hopefully no longer called 'Oriental Adventures') = ?
Iran/Arabia/Morocco (hopefully no longer called 'Al-Qadim')= ?
Subsaharan Africa = ?
Native-American (north and south continents) = ?
Ravenloft = Demiplane in Shadowfell
Spelljammers = Planescape? = plane-hopping campaign setting
ShW: that must be what that boat-looking thing is on the from of the manual of planes book a spelljammer, wasn't sure but now i know for sure.
That boat is just a 'normal' boat, sailing the plane of the Astral Sea, which is the spirit realm of the Immortals. The creature on the cover is a 'dreadnaught', IIRC, presumably a reinvention of the 'astral serpent' in certain reallife beliefs involving spiritism and astral projection.
That boat is just a 'normal' boat, sailing the plane of the Astral Sea, which is the spirit realm of the Immortals. The creature on the cover is a 'dreadnaught', IIRC, presumably a reinvention of the 'astral serpent' in certain reallife beliefs involving spiritism and astral projection.
But wait... I thought spelljammers were just boats (either normal or wacky) that happened to sail the planes!
Someone educate me.
:D the giff ar back hide your smokepowder! man i missed those buggers
Thor's beard, I HATE anthropomorphs. (Except in some cases, like lizardfolk)I've been thinking, spelljammers and airships are 4 squares by 8 squares. That's TINY if I'm right at guessing they're the standard 8-feet per square. Even if it's just the gondola, an airship is 20 feet wide, 40 feet long, and 40 feet high (assuming 10 feet between decks).
Why the tiny size? Where's the room for living quarters, laundry, the galley, cargo, and food storage, let alone room for training, crafting, etc.? Unless they're going Viking longship style, where it's really cramped. I'd say it's a far cry from an elven armada or even a hammership.
A Spelljammer supposedly carries 30 people or 40 tons and a crew of six (5+captain), in 800 square feet per deck. And now they cost 3 million gp to boot!
Err... You're right, they are tiny. Strange.
That won't fly when we get to Eberron. They'll have to revise the numbers for it, given the larger/different airships.
Umm... you two do know that this ship and the airship in AV are not galleons, right? They are supposed to represent the sort of ships 5 heroic or paragon PCs would likely have access to and not giant cargo, cruise or war ships. A good watership size equivalent would be a small caravel (the Nina and Pinta used by Columbus were larger caravels).
As for cargo space: The 40 tons of cargo is how much stuff can be forced into the hold before the ship is 2 heavy to sail, and 30 passengers is the number of people you could pack into the hold like sardines, like when used by a bunch of slavers. A group of 6 adventurers acting as crew and using only about 10 tons for food and other supplies could use the remainder of the hold as a decent multipurpose room.