Stonefire Rager is not what I had hoped to find in Primal Power (preview from today.)
All these powers and abilities that reduces damage, or passively deal damage to adjacent enemies I find rather boring.
Calm Before the Flame (11th level): When you
spend an action point to make an attack, each target
you hit takes extra fire damage equal to your Constitution
modifier and is knocked prone.
The only reason why this can be useful is Storm of Blades. But Storm of Blades can be exploited better with other paragon paths, and let it be Kensei. Better would be "you deal extra fire damage equal to your CON modifier until the end of your next turn, and the targets are knocked prone when you hit."
Resilience of Stone (11th level): When an
enemy scores a critical hit against you, you can roll a
d20. On a 10 or higher, that attack becomes a normal
hit instead of a critical hit.
That's an ability you can find in other paragon paths, and some items. I find it extremely boring. Critical Damage is nothing to worry about when it comes from monsters. Rare exceptions exist, like Marilith. Why not something like "Immediate retribution": When an enemy scores a critical hit against you, you can make a melee basic attack as an immediate reaction against this enemy".
Fire’s Wrath (16th level): While you are bloodied,
you gain resist 10 fire and a +2 bonus to damage
rolls.
Fine. But it comes at level 16, and frankly, I'm tired of stuff that only happens when you are bloodied. "Bloodied" is a condition you are naturally trying to avoid. Yeah, but barbarians love to be bloodied, because they are bloody barbarians. Yawn. I rather deal more damage right from the start, or hit better. Anything please, but not these passive depressive damage reduction and wanting to be bloodied stuff. There are always some great fighter paragon paths that are better by a large margin. End of rant.
I rather liked the PP. While it doesn't dish out more damage against a single opponent, it does hand out a lot of damage overall. I like it more than all the Barb PP in PHB2.
But this is only one of many PP that will be in Primal. I wouldn't get too upset at this point.
Calm Before the Flame (11th level): When you
spend an action point to make an attack, each target
you hit takes extra fire damage equal to your Constitution
modifier and is knocked prone.
The wording on this seems slightly... bad. I can see rules lawyers saying that, because it doesn't specify a duration, it's always active after spending an action point. And when taken that way... it's a lot more damage.
Well, I supposeif you think every PP needs to be a CharOps dream, then yeah it does fail in that regard. If you're looking for something that might be characterful for your PC, then it isn't so bad. I actually like it. Considering I like to wade intot he middle fo the fray with my barbarian, having the passive area damage is a nice idea.
Being able to emit heat waves in the Volcano rage is awesome, it's a larger area Rain of Steel. I like the look of this path, especially since the dwarf is MADE OF LAVA. I wonder if he's a refugee from Boatmurdered.
I think this falls into the "then don't take it" category. I know that gets overused on the boards, every time someone says "I don't like X" someone replies "then don't play X," even when that really doesn't address the issue. But in this case, I think its apt.
This is purely a matter of your preference. There is nothing wrong with powers that make you more durable. There is nothing wrong with passive instead of active benefits. You simply don' t prefer them. It would be a poorer game if everything in every book was designed solely to your specifications. Its better to have a mix: you can choose the ones you like, and I can do the same.
So here's my hope for a spread of powers and classes. May at least half of them be things I don't like! Then someone other than me will want to play D&D.
Calm Before the Flame (11th level): When you
spend an action point to make an attack, each target
you hit takes extra fire damage equal to your Constitution
modifier and is knocked prone.The only reason why this can be useful is Storm of Blades. But Storm of Blades can be exploited better with other paragon paths, and let it be Kensei. Better would be "you deal extra fire damage equal to your CON modifier until the end of your next turn, and the targets are knocked prone when you hit."
I tend to think that ability is only going to apply once per target. But it's poorly worded enough that I wish it had caught the proof reader's eyes.
I have yet to play a barbarian, but my friend who loves them thinks this is a good path. It seems like a nice mix of offensive and defensive abilities.
There are always some great fighter paragon paths that are better by a large margin.
This is thing for me right here. Im playing a barbarian and pretty much none of the barbarian PPs are even in the running as good options. My choices are basically Iron Vanguard, Kensai, Draeven Marauder and Dreadnought. It sucks that none of the options compare to the barbarian paths and its sad that a striker has to look to the defender options to keep up damage-wise.
Calm Before the Flame (11th level): When you
spend an action point to make an attack, each target
you hit takes extra fire damage equal to your Constitution
modifier and is knocked prone.The wording on this seems slightly... bad. I can see rules lawyers saying that, because it doesn't specify a duration, it's always active after spending an action point. And when taken that way... it's a lot more damage.
I am incapable of reading this in any way other than 'the bonus damage applies to the attack you spent the action point to make'.
There are always some great fighter paragon paths that are better by a large margin.This is thing for me right here. Im playing a barbarian and pretty much none of the barbarian PPs are even in the running as good options. My choices are basically Iron Vanguard, Kensai, Draeven Marauder and Dreadnought. It sucks that none of the options compare to the barbarian paths and its sad that a striker has to look to the defender options to keep up damage-wise.
Exactly. To the other posters who are basically saying "then don't play it": My point is that the Barbarian as a striker seems to get NERFED through his paragon paths. This passive damage feature and resisting damage is a typical defender thing. Yes, a barbarian can be a defender as a 2ndary role, or leader, or whatever. But I'm just really annoyed by the fact that in order to increase the STRIKER aspect I find at least 4 options in the fighter class that are much more preferrable. The worst example is "Frenzied Berserker". There is no other built-in nerf hammer like this anywhere in the game. You self-stun if you don't attack. I think that the barbarian class is really well designed otherwise. The playtest improved it. Rampage and Rage are really good flavorful and powerful features. But when it comes to PP, the goal seems to be "don't give them too much".
In direct comparison, Dreadnought will always be preferrable if your goal is to withstand damage and be the last one to die in any party. So you take Stonefire Rager if looking like magma turns you on. Great for my friends in the geography class.
This also reminds me of Rain of Blows. A striker power in the defender class that can't be found in the quintessential striker class (barbarian) until you hit level 13.
The worst example is "Frenzied Berserker". There is no other built-in nerf hammer like this anywhere in the game. You self-stun if you don't attack.
??? You're seriously saying that the Frenzied Berzerker is a nerf-hammer? Just because you are stunned if you start adjacent to an enemy and don't attack while raging? (you forgot those two limitations on that in your post, and what Barbarian worth his salt wouldnt' attack?)
So you ignore the Close Burst Power that you have a 55% chance of retaining when you use it while raging and a Rage power that does 7[W] and allows you to keep pounding the target if it wants to attack you? Dealign half damage on miss when spending an action point and gaining resist 5, while bloodied and raging?
Yeah, sounds totally nerfed to me.
The worst example is "Frenzied Berserker". There is no other built-in nerf hammer like this anywhere in the game. You self-stun if you don't attack.??? You're seriously saying that the Frenzied Berzerker is a nerf-hammer? Just because you are stunned if you start adjacent to an enemy and don't attack while raging? (you forgot those two limitations on that in your post, and what Barbarian worth his salt wouldnt' attack?)
So you ignore the Close Burst Power that you have a 55% chance of retaining when you use it while raging and a Rage power that does 7[W] and allows you to keep pounding the target if it wants to attack you? Dealign half damage on miss when spending an action point and gaining resist 5, while bloodied and raging?
Yeah, sounds totally nerfed to me.
Do you play this paragon path? I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.
Frenzied Blood: You deal half damage on a miss if you action point. Meh. How about increasing damage when you HIT?
Warpath: So you add 2 damage when raging (of course. now compare this to Kensei who adds 4 all the time.) But now silly you, because you are such a mad berserker, you stun yourself when you don't hit somebody, even if doing something else makes MUCH more sense. For example, running towards a more dangerous target, or helping an ally, or whatever. No, you are stuck, because you are such a crazy barbarian.
Persistent Frenzy is good, but not crazy. Barbarians rarely have use for burst powers. Usually it's all about taking one monster down at a time. And there are better class burst powers around.
Deathless Frenzy you can get as a utility power.
Final Confrontation: Great and flavorful. Much to my liking. But it comes at level 20, at the very end of paragon, and it also requires a DM to play along with it. Those abilities are always suspicious to me. I prefer stuff you can fully control.
other posters who are basically saying "then don't play it": My point is that the Barbarian as a striker seems to get NERFED through his paragon paths. This passive damage feature and resisting damage is a typical defender thing. Yes, a barbarian can be a defender as a 2ndary role, or leader, or whatever. But I'm just really annoyed by the fact that in order to increase the STRIKER aspect I find at least 4 options in the fighter class that are much more preferrable.
I'm sticking with the "then don't take it" position.
I'm sorry you feel that 100% of paragon paths for strikers should focus on increasing damage. That's sad for you, because its inevitable that some will increase damage, some will shore up the traditional weaknesses of a striker, some will add controller or leader elements, and so on. Paragon paths are a branching point in a class, and I'm sorry for you that you cannot stand that branches exist other than the ones you personally want. But some people who play barbarians are going to want to increase their defense, and you may just have to learn to deal with other people getting to have what they want at least some of the time.
PS: For the record, half damage on a miss is actually a really good ability. Math says so. If you hit 50% of the time, then half damage on a miss has the same effect as increasing your damage on a hit by 50%. Increases in accuracy decrease the gain, but you have to have really, really good accuracy before "miss: half" isn't hands down better than other action point damage boosts.
Do you play this paragon path? I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.
Hurt my feelings? heh... you don't know me very well. ;)
Frenzied Blood: You deal half damage on a miss if you action point. Meh. How about increasing damage when you HIT?
Increasing on a hit is nice. Personally, i can't count on my fingers and toes the number of times I've charged, hit, AP'd and whiffed on a 3[W]+ encounter power. Being able to do damage on a miss when you can't is increasing your damage. It's like damage insurance. if I don't clean their clock I give it a nice buffing.
Warpath: So you add 2 damage when raging (of course. now compare this to Kensei who adds 4 all the time.) But now silly you, because you are such a mad berserker, you stun yourself when you don't hit somebody, even if doing something else makes MUCH more sense. For example, running towards a more dangerous target, or helping an ally, or whatever. No, you are stuck, because you are such a crazy barbarian.
Of course "sense" and "barbarian" are not two words that generally go together.
I'm sorry you feel that 100% of paragon paths for strikers should focus on increasing damage.
No one is saying this at all.
The problem with the barbarian is that none of the PPs help damage as well as defender paragon paths. Now that there is a TWF barbarian, those will likely have to multiclass ranger in order to get stormwarden if they continue on the same trend with barbarian PPs.
Exactly. And regarding half damage on a miss: When it's action point time, I usually bet on a hit, not on a miss. It's rare that the chances are 50/50.
I just did the math on a level 12 barbarian, with a 3(W) rage attack.
Version A) has +1 accuracy and +6 extra damage (half level) on Action Points (kind of like an imaginary Kensei style Barbarian PP)
Version B) has half damage on a miss.
Against a level 12 brute monster A) has 32.33 DPR, and version B) has 31.59.
Now take into account that during Action Point you usually increase your to hit chance with leader powers, flanking etc., so you get to a point where you wish you would miss so your great ability doesn't go to waste...
First, you cherry picked your example monster by selecting a brute, ie, the monster type with the lowest defenses. Miss: half is a bonus that is most useful on hard to hit monsters, and least useful on easily hit monsters. Its not unreasonable to consider how useful it is outside of its element, but you should at least note the fact that you've cherry picked the worst possible case. That would be especially useful to know given that in the cherry picked worst possible case you were only able to demonstrate a difference of less than a point in comparison to an imaginary paragon path.
Second, you progress from the assumption that action points are usually used when your chances of hitting are best. That would normally be a good assumption, except in the obvious counter example of a character that receives bonuses when using action points against difficult to hit targets.
I was assuming that everyone knows that brutes are the easiest to hit... sorry.
Anyway, the point stands. I have played Barbarians ever since I saw the playtest. I tried all kinds of different builds in actual games, not just theoretic discussions on message boards, from Orc Thaneborn to Eladrin Greatspear Feycharger. It's a lot of fun. The basic design is good. It's just so unfortunate that if you are looking for more striker power, you WILL MC into fighter, and you WILL ignore the barbarian feats and paragon path, the only exception being Deadly Rage. Figther gives you everything you want: Dreadnought, Kensei, Pit Fighter, Iron Vanguard, Draeven Marauder. And a lot of fun feats, like Mobile Warrior, Polearm Momentum, and what not. The reason probably is that they really wanted to offer striker-type players some good options when PHB I came out, and now the well is dry.
I'm not questioning that some players will find pleasure in flavorful options like this vulcano dude. But honestly, every DM will let you reflavor whatever you want so you look like magma, so let's forget about flavor please. Flavor is not rules.
This also reminds me of Rain of Blows. A striker power in the defender class that can't be found in the quintessential striker class (barbarian) until you hit level 13.
If you have to include the name in parentheses to ensure people know what you're talking about, it probably isn't 'quintessential'.
This also reminds me of Rain of Blows. A striker power in the defender class that can't be found in the quintessential striker class (barbarian) until you hit level 13.
If you have to include the name in parentheses to ensure people know what you're talking about, it probably isn't 'quintessential'.
Indeed, especially since prior to the release of the playtest in Dragon #368, there was no universal consensus that the barbarian's role was even going to be striker (some of us expected an agresive defender). If there is a 'quintessential' striker it is most likely the rogue, though I'm sure somebody could argue against even that.
Once again, the point is being missed. Whatever the "quintessential" striker is really doent matter.
The main issue is non-striker classes getting better striker powers than the strikers themselves. Fighters are the obvious example with heroic monsters like Rain of Blows and Rain of Steel but now that Divine Power is out im seeing some crazy paladin damage as well. Its disappointing when you are a barbarian optimized for charging, and you are playing in a Heroic game where the paladin has a better charging encounter power than you. Im just hoping Primal Power allows the barbarian to keep pace with the defenders.
In other words, if it wasn't for Howling Strike and Rampage, the fighter can be built as a much better striker. And with more fun and diverse options too, not just charging round and round until the world ends.
In other words, if it wasn't for Howling Strike and Rampage, the fighter can be built as a much better striker. And with more fun and diverse options too, not just charging round and round until the world ends.
Or the paladin. Ardent Vow is an awesome striker power, for instance. Heedless Fury does as much damage as the most damaging barbarian power of the same level. Blade of Light is a power the barbarian wishes he had. The Scion of Sacrifice get a burst 1 power at level 11 that deals 4[W]+Cha to each target. This is all pretty low level stuff too.
And yet they call Storm of Blades "broken"
It is, because all Paladin powers are single attacks or AOEs so their potential is far more limited and within the DM's control. It's multiattacking a single target that's broken.
The new paladin heavy hitter powers have built in downsides you are not mentioning here. Fighter Rain of Blows was drastically reduced and Rain of Steel isn't a problem when you properly leave off static bonuses from the W autodamage.
Once again, the point is being missed. Whatever the "quintessential" striker is really doent matter.
The point is certainly not being missed, it's merely not being addressed, thank you very much. I was making a simple comment disagreeing with the description of the barbarian as the 'quintessential' striker. I don't have to address all or any other lines of thought on this thread to do so, unless I missed some fine print when I signed up.
Then again, one of the reaspns why i may not have the same viewpoint on the whole "nerf" thing, or the whole "the PPs need to be more strikery!" thing is that to me, the Barbarian, regardless of build, is "PLAYER SMASH! RAWR!" At least that's my experience playign them. The PPs are a nice way to round out the class so it's a bit less one-dimensional. I mean don't get me wrong, it does "RAWR!" well. It's just nice to have some other mechanics to throw into the mix.
It is, because all Paladin powers are single attacks or AOEs so their potential is far more limited and within the DM's control. It's multiattacking a single target that's broken.
The barbarian's heroic stuff is all single attacks per target as well though, thats the thing. There is no arguing that multiattacking has become pretty unbalanced.
The new paladin heavy hitter powers have built in downsides you are not mentioning here. Fighter Rain of Blows was drastically reduced and Rain of Steel isn't a problem when you properly leave off static bonuses from the W autodamage.
Rain of Blows is still one of the most damaging encounter powers on anyone's list during Heroic, and far better than what most strikers get. Adding all your static modifiers (sans Str, of course) can make for crazy damage, especially with a leader in the party.
Has there been a ruling about not attacking static bonuses with Rain of Steel? As far as i can tell, you can still add all kinds of extra damage to it. In any case, its pretty clearly a striker power, not a defender one, since it encourages monsters to move away from the fighter, not stick to him. Its an anti-defender power, really.
Then again, one of the reaspns why i may not have the same viewpoint on the whole "nerf" thing, or the whole "the PPs need to be more strikery!" thing is that to me, the Barbarian, regardless of build, is "PLAYER SMASH! RAWR!" At least that's my experience playign them. The PPs are a nice way to round out the class so it's a bit less one-dimensional. I mean don't get me wrong, it does "RAWR!" well. It's just nice to have some other mechanics to throw into the mix.
Do the barbarian PPs make them as well-rounded as a fighter with good defender capabilities as well as great damage too?
You'll notice that on the list of fighter PPs i was looking at, i included Draeven Marauder and Dreadnought. This is because not only do other classes get better damagin PPs than the barbarian, but they apparently are graced with ones that grant better utility as well. IMO, barbarians have just gotten the short end of the stick on PPs so far all around, whether we are looking at raw damage or "well-roundedness".
IMO, barbarians have just gotten the short end of the stick on PPs so far all around, whether we are looking at raw damage or "well-roundedness".
I'm not so sure its a matter of getting the short end of the stick but rather the whole stick is shorter - on account of Primal Power not actually being out yet. Lots of classes did not have good PP's until their power book came out yet.
Do the barbarian PPs make them as well-rounded as a fighter with good defender capabilities as well as great damage too?You'll notice that on the list of fighter PPs i was looking at, i included Draeven Marauder and Dreadnought. This is because not only do other classes get better damagin PPs than the barbarian, but they apparently are graced with ones that grant better utility as well. IMO, barbarians have just gotten the short end of the stick on PPs so far all around, whether we are looking at raw damage or "well-roundedness".
I'll just have to disagree with you. I don't see the fighter PPs as anythign that I want to take for my Barbarian PCs. If I was dipping into a defender class, then maybe. Lots of good defenderyness in them, but I like my Barbarians to be less one dimensional but not a Defender. To each their own.
The new Great Weapon Fighter article just reaffirms my postion.
Now, with a feat, fighters can match or outdo a barbarian's at-will charging damage. Not only that, but they can add their Con to their AC with an at-will utility! So they not only get at least as much damage but they get more AC as well, hands down.
As for the AC bit... they're defenders. It's not that big of a surprise. 
Initally tone and the position taken in the original post did a good job of poisoning me against him, no harm meant but it really reeked of entitlement and seemed outwardly provokative. Just seemed like the wrong way of going about it, just seeming like gamer whining and not really condusive to anyone actually discussing your issue.
But I have to say, I can relate to the sentiment behind this discussion.
I'm not a total power gamer, I stay away from epic tier and I don't design my characters around what will look best for comparative posts on the internet, but I do have a bit of power gamer in me, and I like to build a character that does its job well, and i notice when there are disparities or a depressing lack of options.
I like the barbarian and I think its got some good things going, but when I look at it, I can't help but notice how narrow the class is and depressingly consider wether a 2HWT fighter would just be a better idea. The lack of support from the PPs just cement it.
I guess the damage isn't bad, considering it isnt going to get too much better unless your going to get abusive with criticals or charging or push tactics, but right now all that the barbarian does is damage and a good deal of survivability and I think that a number of defenders do that a lot better.
Barbarian is really looking forward to the boost in content, I'm hoping it'll cover alot of bases.
OP seemed like he was whining because he wants everything to be Cheese, but I don't think thats it, I think he was saying he wanted something to give barbarian some definition. Something to make the barbarain a good striker without having to draw direct comparision to the fighter.
Let's not forget there is the thaneborn barbarian too. The class really is not one-dimensional.
The problem is that the barbarian's PP don't support striker builds. I think the point has been made, and now let's hope for the new book.
Meanwhile, for a paragon game that starts on Wednesday I'm probably building a charging 2H fighter, because everything I want is better represented in the fighter class anyway. Hell, you can even get Rampage with the Reckless Attacker feat. And it's even better because it's not limited to once per round.