Stormwrack, Sandstorm, and Geographical books - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Stormwrack, Sandstorm, and Geographical books

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
MacEochaid
Feb 27, 2010 16:21:44 Any word if we're going to see these again?

With the focus on explaining the planes of existance I feel like PoL has more information on the realms that should be reserved for rare and high level encounters. I would like to see a little more information on how to run campagins in the "world." Like the Underdark book but for the Frostfell, or a book on what one finds in all those Arkhosian and Turathi ruins that are everywhere.

My main interest would be in a sea book, I would love some extra tools to construct a pirate adventure, perhaps a paperback players book on making pirates released in concert with a DM's guide to Seabound adventures.

Player's guide could have Paragon paths for Stormcaller sorcerers and wizards, and builds and feats for pirate rogues, rangers, and warlords.

DM's guide would have the always popular ghost pirate ships and fey phantom isles that seem to offer respite from life at sea only to wind up charmed by the mermaids who are scaring up food for their sea hag matron.
#2
ian.thomson
Feb 27, 2010 17:49:03 With Dark Sun coming out, I don't think we're gonna get anything like Sandstorm (it'd be kinda redundant). Given that, I think that the closest we're going to be getting to Stormwrack would either be a future setting, or maybe DDI articles.
#3
LordofKhyber
Feb 27, 2010 17:53:26 Yeah I wouldn't mind a 4E version of these books at all. I was impressed with them in 3.5 and I think they'd be really cool. i've heard rumours that they may be going back to the combined DM/Players stuff in one book format due to the DM-centric books not selling too well and I think these would be a great way to implement the new change.

#4
thasis
Feb 27, 2010 19:10:52 I have to say the enviroment books were some of my favorite books for the latter 3e years. I really would love to see a resurgence of these. But I doubt it'll happen unless they did it similiar to these new Races mini-books, do a small like 30-50 page book on running adventurers in certain locales. I actually think that'd be a nice addition to the game as well, it'd be cheap and not full of boring fluff, just what you need. NO FILLER!
#5
the_fan
Feb 28, 2010 7:31:13
The "It's Outside" series, as it has been nicknamed (It's cold, it's wet, it's hot, it's crowded, it's not) in some ways exemplifies the best of 3.5 edition. Interesting rules and settings, diverse influences, rules to cover damn near everything, lots of good and interesting ideas, etc. In every book, you could open it up and find something you like and want to use in your game.

In other ways, it represents the worst of 3.5. It was a random grab bag of everything even remotely related to the environment. Races, spells, class options, terrain features, spells, monsters, rules, items, feats, spells, spells, psionic powers, prestige classes, spells, spells, spells, gods, eggs, spells, spells, spam, and spells.

While some of this was undoubtedly useful, about 85% of anything in the book is going to be utterly useless to you. If you're a player, and you're playing a fighter, rogue, etc, what good is the 1/4 of the book devoted to spells, spells, spells *vikings join in singing*. None. It's absolutely useless to you and a waste of paper. Likewise, if you're a player, what good are the terrain features and rules for flying into the aurora polaris, except as a reminder "DON'T DO THIS!" As a DM, some of the races and class options might be useful in building NPCs, but most of it will never, ever see use no matter how interesting it looks.

Much of it was also of questionable balance. Things like Shivering Touch were hilariously broken and since Wizards rarely issued major errata for supplements at the time, you'd have people going through all sorts of logical twists to defend it. And, while I admit to liking the Hadozee, some of the options in there were downright silly and obviously put in just to take up space or fill some perceived niche, rather than any actual reason for existing. A pillar of ice that emits lightning might make sense in the 4e cosmology (elemental chaos, baby!) but made no sense at all in the simulationist 3.5e worldview.

Furthermore, what's the need for such a supplement in 4e? The rules are flexible enough to allow for a variety of environs. A skill challenge, some healing surges, and perhaps traps or challenging terrain is all it requires to simulate an extreme environment. The powers of "nature" classes like druids and wardens even in the PHB2 are no longer thematically restricted to fitting in a medieval European (as filmed in New Zealand) setting.

In short, I'd say they are simply unnecessary. If they were to be remade, or something along similar lines, it'd have to fit in more with 4e design philosophy, and I'm not sure how that would be the case.
#6
Marandahir
Feb 28, 2010 10:28:53 Besides, before we can get into the Natural World's Environs, we need to get through the environs of the other Planes. We have Manual of the Planes, The Plane Below, Underdark, and The Plane Above. We still need a book about the Shadowfell and one about the Feywild first.

#7
Webster
Feb 28, 2010 10:49:50 Rather than separate books, I think it would be neat to have one book on "environments". There's such a great emphasis on using the environments, that it would be a great tool for DMs. Each environment "type" could get a chapter.

Ice/cold
Fire/desert
Watery places (Oceans/rivers/lakes)
Forest/jungle
Mountain/caves (Not deep caves or any underdark stuff. Just small surface caves.)

Natural hazards and disasters could be covered.
Fires, floods, earthquakes, mudslides, high winds/tornadoes/hurricanes, and so on.
#8
MacEochaid
Feb 28, 2010 13:08:57 RE: Marandahir, that's EXACTLY my point, with books on the planes coming out before books on the normal world, I have right now some great tools to have my adventurers take an amazing voyage in an Azer battleship across a sea of molten lava to the gates of the city of brass, they are going to look at me a little funny when for epic tier we capture an Elven trading ship to ambush a den of pirates on the archipelago of skulls.

I wish they started with some more world books, like Underdark, Open Grave, and Draconomicon, as we began our heroic tier. Adventures fighting Lizardmen in swamps and crossing the desert wastes, then went to the parallel planes and solved the riddle of an cursed Archfey and brought back the wandering tortured shade of the King's Daughter for Paragon levels, and then did the Plane above, the Plane below so they could fight Demon princes, the Lords of Hell, and kill an Evil God or two. It ups the high fantasy right out of the gate and doesn't allow the drama to build.

Done is done though. I also am confused with these forums, am I the only one who loved to just read all the crazy ideas to give me new ones? Even if my party never went to a fully developed Dwarf Stronghold rolling on all the charts from the Player's Handbook Dwarves, it still teased out a whole bunch of ideas for what my lost kingdom of the Undead looked like. Why is fluff such a four letter word here?
#9
Marandahir
Feb 28, 2010 13:39:54 I love to read the fluff. That's one of the main reasons I buy every book – to give me inspiration for my own stories.

That said, I'm happy they're doing it this order. The Natural World is something that isn't supposed to be as defined as other planes – it's supposed to be a place of your creation. Nentir Vale is an example and a setting for the early published adventures.

Right now, each of the "Setting Books" whether they be "Creature Books" or "Planar Books" (and I'd group Underdark into the Planes series of books), has included challenges from 1st to beyond 30th level. Each of them includes a deity or major villain to fight, just as the MMs have – Orcus, Tiamat, Graz'zt, Vecna, Demogorgon, Bahamut, Torog, etc. Next comes another Planar book, and then another Creature book (Demonomicon).

The thing is, the natural world environs would be best placed in a DMG, as terrain or environment elements and sample skill challenges.
#10
ian.thomson
Mar 02, 2010 17:07:00
Besides, before we can get into the Natural World's Environs, we need to get through the environs of the other Planes. We have Manual of the Planes, The Plane Below, Underdark, and The Plane Above. We still need a book about the Shadowfell and one about the Feywild first.

I dunno if it's just me, but the Feywild book could be place to put some environmental stuff. It ain't just trees and trees and trees and some more trees.

Want 4e Frostburn? Take the Winter court stuff and knock the DCs down by 5. Want 4e Stormwrack? Tone down the Court of Coral stuff a touch.
#11
greatfrito
Mar 02, 2010 20:36:00 You know how I'd love to see these again, and be absolutely sure to buy them? If they were "pamphlet" sized, and "boxed" with dungeon tiles representing the appropriate environ. Though I'd be loathe to wind up with several of the "books" (because I buy multiple sets of the tiles), I could see them being an easier sell this way. Something like a ~100 page "environment" book packaged with a full set of tiles for that environment, for like $15-20 bucks? (Even if only on Amazon) I'd buy that. And I might offer to trade the extra books around with folks who want the books but not the tiles.
#12
kaorael
Mar 03, 2010 2:41:51 It would be nice to see something in this line appear for 4th edition. For me I would like to see a book or two "Extreme Environments" or "Dangerous Wilderness" which included a chapter on each of the classic locations in the natural world like:

- Swamps
- High mountains
- Deserts
- Cold environments
- Forests and jungles
- Volcanoes
- The seas

Each chapter would have a series of hazards and elements to include in adventures set in that locale, along with some examples of terrain and guidelines on how to build exciting encounters there (stone bridge over a pool of magma, anyone? :P). It could also include examples of skill challenges and their difficulty suited to the conditions, as well as a list of monsters and their source fitting the environments.
#13
Aldarc
Mar 15, 2010 16:07:21
Rather than separate books, I think it would be neat to have one book on "environments". There's such a great emphasis on using the environments, that it would be a great tool for DMs. Each environment "type" could get a chapter.

Ice/cold
Fire/desert
Watery places (Oceans/rivers/lakes)
Forest/jungle
Mountain/caves (Not deep caves or any underdark stuff. Just small surface caves.)

Natural hazards and disasters could be covered.
Fires, floods, earthquakes, mudslides, high winds/tornadoes/hurricanes, and so on.

This would probably be the best option. I do not think that these environments necessarily deserve a full book apiece. I admit that I am especially keen on the "Stormwrack" portion due to an upcoming island-hopping campaign of mine.
#14
Dragon9
Mar 15, 2010 17:20:57 As it is, if you have the old Environment books they can still be used. It would be pretty easy to work skill challenges around stuff in those books or to reflavor environmental hazards from the 4e books already released to work with the environment books. It's a little extra work, but those old books were generic enough that the information in them can still be useful if and when they decide to do somethign similar for 4e.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MacEochaid Feb 27, 2010 16:21:44	Any word if we're going to see these again? With the focus on explaining the planes of existance I feel like PoL has more information on the realms that should be reserved for rare and high level encounters. I would like to see a little more information on how to run campagins in the "world." Like the Underdark book but for the Frostfell, or a book on what one finds in all those Arkhosian and Turathi ruins that are everywhere. My main interest would be in a sea book, I would love some extra tools to construct a pirate adventure, perhaps a paperback players book on making pirates released in concert with a DM's guide to Seabound adventures. Player's guide could have Paragon paths for Stormcaller sorcerers and wizards, and builds and feats for pirate rogues, rangers, and warlords. DM's guide would have the always popular ghost pirate ships and fey phantom isles that seem to offer respite from life at sea only to wind up charmed by the mermaids who are scaring up food for their sea hag matron.
#2 ian.thomson Feb 27, 2010 17:49:03	With Dark Sun coming out, I don't think we're gonna get anything like Sandstorm (it'd be kinda redundant). Given that, I think that the closest we're going to be getting to Stormwrack would either be a future setting, or maybe DDI articles.
#3 LordofKhyber Feb 27, 2010 17:53:26	Yeah I wouldn't mind a 4E version of these books at all. I was impressed with them in 3.5 and I think they'd be really cool. i've heard rumours that they may be going back to the combined DM/Players stuff in one book format due to the DM-centric books not selling too well and I think these would be a great way to implement the new change.
#4 thasis Feb 27, 2010 19:10:52	I have to say the enviroment books were some of my favorite books for the latter 3e years. I really would love to see a resurgence of these. But I doubt it'll happen unless they did it similiar to these new Races mini-books, do a small like 30-50 page book on running adventurers in certain locales. I actually think that'd be a nice addition to the game as well, it'd be cheap and not full of boring fluff, just what you need. NO FILLER!
#5 the_fan Feb 28, 2010 7:31:13	The "It's Outside" series, as it has been nicknamed (It's cold, it's wet, it's hot, it's crowded, it's not) in some ways exemplifies the best of 3.5 edition. Interesting rules and settings, diverse influences, rules to cover damn near everything, lots of good and interesting ideas, etc. In every book, you could open it up and find something you like and want to use in your game. In other ways, it represents the worst of 3.5. It was a random grab bag of everything even remotely related to the environment. Races, spells, class options, terrain features, spells, monsters, rules, items, feats, spells, spells, psionic powers, prestige classes, spells, spells, spells, gods, eggs, spells, spells, spam, and spells. While some of this was undoubtedly useful, about 85% of anything in the book is going to be utterly useless to you. If you're a player, and you're playing a fighter, rogue, etc, what good is the 1/4 of the book devoted to spells, spells, spells vikings join in singing. None. It's absolutely useless to you and a waste of paper. Likewise, if you're a player, what good are the terrain features and rules for flying into the aurora polaris, except as a reminder "DON'T DO THIS!" As a DM, some of the races and class options might be useful in building NPCs, but most of it will never, ever see use no matter how interesting it looks. Much of it was also of questionable balance. Things like Shivering Touch were hilariously broken and since Wizards rarely issued major errata for supplements at the time, you'd have people going through all sorts of logical twists to defend it. And, while I admit to liking the Hadozee, some of the options in there were downright silly and obviously put in just to take up space or fill some perceived niche, rather than any actual reason for existing. A pillar of ice that emits lightning might make sense in the 4e cosmology (elemental chaos, baby!) but made no sense at all in the simulationist 3.5e worldview. Furthermore, what's the need for such a supplement in 4e? The rules are flexible enough to allow for a variety of environs. A skill challenge, some healing surges, and perhaps traps or challenging terrain is all it requires to simulate an extreme environment. The powers of "nature" classes like druids and wardens even in the PHB2 are no longer thematically restricted to fitting in a medieval European (as filmed in New Zealand) setting. In short, I'd say they are simply unnecessary. If they were to be remade, or something along similar lines, it'd have to fit in more with 4e design philosophy, and I'm not sure how that would be the case.
#6 Marandahir Feb 28, 2010 10:28:53	Besides, before we can get into the Natural World's Environs, we need to get through the environs of the other Planes. We have Manual of the Planes, The Plane Below, Underdark, and The Plane Above. We still need a book about the Shadowfell and one about the Feywild first.
#7 Webster Feb 28, 2010 10:49:50	Rather than separate books, I think it would be neat to have one book on "environments". There's such a great emphasis on using the environments, that it would be a great tool for DMs. Each environment "type" could get a chapter. Ice/cold Fire/desert Watery places (Oceans/rivers/lakes) Forest/jungle Mountain/caves (Not deep caves or any underdark stuff. Just small surface caves.) Natural hazards and disasters could be covered. Fires, floods, earthquakes, mudslides, high winds/tornadoes/hurricanes, and so on.
#8 MacEochaid Feb 28, 2010 13:08:57	RE: Marandahir, that's EXACTLY my point, with books on the planes coming out before books on the normal world, I have right now some great tools to have my adventurers take an amazing voyage in an Azer battleship across a sea of molten lava to the gates of the city of brass, they are going to look at me a little funny when for epic tier we capture an Elven trading ship to ambush a den of pirates on the archipelago of skulls. I wish they started with some more world books, like Underdark, Open Grave, and Draconomicon, as we began our heroic tier. Adventures fighting Lizardmen in swamps and crossing the desert wastes, then went to the parallel planes and solved the riddle of an cursed Archfey and brought back the wandering tortured shade of the King's Daughter for Paragon levels, and then did the Plane above, the Plane below so they could fight Demon princes, the Lords of Hell, and kill an Evil God or two. It ups the high fantasy right out of the gate and doesn't allow the drama to build. Done is done though. I also am confused with these forums, am I the only one who loved to just read all the crazy ideas to give me new ones? Even if my party never went to a fully developed Dwarf Stronghold rolling on all the charts from the Player's Handbook Dwarves, it still teased out a whole bunch of ideas for what my lost kingdom of the Undead looked like. Why is fluff such a four letter word here?
#9 Marandahir Feb 28, 2010 13:39:54	I love to read the fluff. That's one of the main reasons I buy every book – to give me inspiration for my own stories. That said, I'm happy they're doing it this order. The Natural World is something that isn't supposed to be as defined as other planes – it's supposed to be a place of your creation. Nentir Vale is an example and a setting for the early published adventures. Right now, each of the "Setting Books" whether they be "Creature Books" or "Planar Books" (and I'd group Underdark into the Planes series of books), has included challenges from 1st to beyond 30th level. Each of them includes a deity or major villain to fight, just as the MMs have – Orcus, Tiamat, Graz'zt, Vecna, Demogorgon, Bahamut, Torog, etc. Next comes another Planar book, and then another Creature book (Demonomicon). The thing is, the natural world environs would be best placed in a DMG, as terrain or environment elements and sample skill challenges.
#10 ian.thomson Mar 02, 2010 17:07:00	Besides, before we can get into the Natural World's Environs, we need to get through the environs of the other Planes. We have Manual of the Planes, The Plane Below, Underdark, and The Plane Above. We still need a book about the Shadowfell and one about the Feywild first. I dunno if it's just me, but the Feywild book could be place to put some environmental stuff. It ain't just trees and trees and trees and some more trees. Want 4e Frostburn? Take the Winter court stuff and knock the DCs down by 5. Want 4e Stormwrack? Tone down the Court of Coral stuff a touch.
#11 greatfrito Mar 02, 2010 20:36:00	You know how I'd love to see these again, and be absolutely sure to buy them? If they were "pamphlet" sized, and "boxed" with dungeon tiles representing the appropriate environ. Though I'd be loathe to wind up with several of the "books" (because I buy multiple sets of the tiles), I could see them being an easier sell this way. Something like a ~100 page "environment" book packaged with a full set of tiles for that environment, for like $15-20 bucks? (Even if only on Amazon) I'd buy that. And I might offer to trade the extra books around with folks who want the books but not the tiles.
#12 kaorael Mar 03, 2010 2:41:51	It would be nice to see something in this line appear for 4th edition. For me I would like to see a book or two "Extreme Environments" or "Dangerous Wilderness" which included a chapter on each of the classic locations in the natural world like: - Swamps - High mountains - Deserts - Cold environments - Forests and jungles - Volcanoes - The seas Each chapter would have a series of hazards and elements to include in adventures set in that locale, along with some examples of terrain and guidelines on how to build exciting encounters there (stone bridge over a pool of magma, anyone? :P). It could also include examples of skill challenges and their difficulty suited to the conditions, as well as a list of monsters and their source fitting the environments.
#13 Aldarc Mar 15, 2010 16:07:21	Rather than separate books, I think it would be neat to have one book on "environments". There's such a great emphasis on using the environments, that it would be a great tool for DMs. Each environment "type" could get a chapter. Ice/cold Fire/desert Watery places (Oceans/rivers/lakes) Forest/jungle Mountain/caves (Not deep caves or any underdark stuff. Just small surface caves.) Natural hazards and disasters could be covered. Fires, floods, earthquakes, mudslides, high winds/tornadoes/hurricanes, and so on. This would probably be the best option. I do not think that these environments necessarily deserve a full book apiece. I admit that I am especially keen on the "Stormwrack" portion due to an upcoming island-hopping campaign of mine.
#14 Dragon9 Mar 15, 2010 17:20:57	As it is, if you have the old Environment books they can still be used. It would be pretty easy to work skill challenges around stuff in those books or to reflavor environmental hazards from the 4e books already released to work with the environment books. It's a little extra work, but those old books were generic enough that the information in them can still be useful if and when they decide to do somethign similar for 4e.