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Strange Release Dates

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jazral
Jul 04, 2008 15:50:02 I've been looking over the fourth edition release dates and I find many things that are strange. After reading the Monster Manual it became totally clear to me that many iconic monsters are missing. Why is MM2 not going to show until May 2009? Wouldn't September/October be more useful? Also, why are we expanding existing classes instead of releasing the classes that have been somewhat iconic to the game for the last 25 years or so (can anyone say druid or monk)? PH2 in 2009 (Feb or April my mind in going numb).

Yes, I know that martial classes are extremely popular, but the wizard and cleric have been totally altered. Wouldn't it be better to put more options out for classes that have been seriously gutted (not in power but in the expected number of options) before giving more to classes that have been made more interesting by the rule changes? So Arcane in March 2009 but Martial in 2008? When do the clerics get their expansion, November 2009?

Do we really need magic items to be the first supplement to be released? Didn't they say something somewhere in the books that magic items would be less defining than the actual powers of the classes? If this is so, why are we expanding something inherently less important than concepts that are more important?

I'm not wondering why they are not releasing product faster;p I fully understand the economics and internal resource limitations of a well run business. I just find their choices a little strange. Of course I could simply be totally out of touch with the bulk of consumers out there.

So, is the release schedule a little strange, or am I clueless?

Jazral
#2
ranadiel
Jul 04, 2008 16:13:56 I'll go with cluesless, but I'm also mean spirited. :p

The MM2(and PHB2 and DMG2) won't be showing up later this year because first of all they do need time to fill those books up with everything and do at least some playtesting. Also they are only releasing onea year so as to alleviate some bloat(otherwise we might end up with 10 Monster Manuals a year with maybe one good one).

Monk and Druid have hardly been iconic for the entire lifetime of D&D(I'd actually they have never been iconic, but that is another discussion entirely). However the reason that they are expanding other classes first is because they are ready to expand classes, and they have made the decision to only release new classes in PHBs and Campaign Settings.

Martial characters are getting their expansion book first because they are the first one ready for an expansion. If you'll notice, martial is the only power source with more then 2 classes atm. As you'll also note Arcane Power is being released around the same time as the PHB2, which will have at least 2 arcane classes in it. So martial characters get their expansion first because they are the first ones ready for it. And they will probably wait a few months before releasing Divine Power because they do have limits on how much they can write at once.

And are you really saying we shouldn't have hundreds of magic items released quickly? Magic items might not define a character's power, but that doesn't mean they aren't fun. Besides I imagine that making a magic item takes a lot less time then it does to make just about anything else except for maybe a feat, and a book dedicated solely to feats would not go over well I imagine.
#3
enigmashock
Jul 04, 2008 16:15:42 That's a good question, and I am not sure what their reasoning is.

My guess, however, is that it centers around market and business strategy. 1st off, the PHB was severely deficient in equipment, weapons and specifics about wagons, and vehicles. My guess is that there is a "sweet spot" in the RPG publishing business for what the ideal page count for perceived value is, versus the minimum amount of pages needed to achieve said value to minimize printing costs. In addition, they are looking to make each volume have just enough "indispensable" information that it will be considered a "must have." This is the business strategy part of the equation.

Apply that to the PhB and it is obvious that they left the cupboard bare (in terms of equipment) to justify a new arms and equipment guide/magic item compendium - only this time they are packing it with necessary info regarding ships, vehicles, mounts, equipment and items, thereby making it "indispensable."

As far as the market strategy is concerned, I would look to similar products arriving at similar times each year. My guess would include 2-3 core books (PHB, MM) per year, 2 core setting books a year(Forgotten realms Player Handbook, etc) , 2-4 player supplements (Martial Power, etc), 2-4 setting supplements (Manual of the planes), 2-4 monster supplements (Draconomicon, etc) and at least 6 modules of various flavors, at least for the next two years. Also look for a set of dungeon tiles each quarter, and probably some other books as well. When they need to really squeeze, they will start rolling out Races of books.

All of that is based only on what we know now, but if you look at the releases, you can see a pattern emerging. I think they will drag out 3E classes and races to at least PHBIII, making the old timers sweat it out and be motivated to drop $90+ to get what they wanted for $30.
#4
Belorin
Jul 04, 2008 16:18:32 Not totally clueless, but...
No , really, WotC planned it like this, they said early on that they would be releasing a new set of core books(PHB,MM, DMG) every year. As for the power source books they don't want to release an Arcane book until they have a good number of Arcane classes. PHB I had four martial, two arcane and two divine characters, so martial would come out first. PHB II is going to contain more arcane and divine, plus a new power source Primal. It should cover Barbarians, Druids and two other primal classes as well as two arcane and divine classes. By the way new classes and races will only be offered in the annual PHB's or in campaign setting player guides, for example the Swordmage in the Forgotten Realms and the Artificer in Eberron.
Now you know the rest of the story,

Bel
#5
Grazel
Jul 04, 2008 18:47:27 Also Tome of Treasure isn't just magic items. It includes equipment, vehicles, weapons, possibly even more armor options and mounts (I think a snippet somewhere mentioned elephant in relation to the book).

Martial Power comes out first because martial is currently the only power source with 4+ classes to it. Arcane comes out just after PHB2 since we're expecting 2 more arcane classes in it bringing the total to 5 (2 for PHB, 2 for PHB2, and 1 from FR Player's Guide in Sept). Divine will likely come out in the second half fo 2009 along with Eberron books.

PHB2 is going to focus on primal, arcane, and divine classes like the first focuses on martial, arcane, and divine.

This is a strategy by WotC to group classes by power source and focus each book in a narrow spectrum. Also with limiting classes to just the PHBs and CSPGs (Campaign Setting Player's Guide) it makes it easier to locate classes. the powers books only present powers, feats, epic destinies, paragon paths, powers, and other enhancements to the classes of a power source but doesn't introduce new base classes.

As for the MM's having more than one a year could be tricky as they want to playtest monsters as well as classes. Also with the new style of doing it they need ot have art for every monster, and make sure they have enough interesting monsters in the book to make it worth purchasing.

They've also deliberately held back some 'iconic' classes, monsters, etc. to get people to buy more books and reinforce WotC's status that anything they publish for 4e is considered core (not to be confused with mandatory since at DM discretion ANYTHING is optional no matter where it's published).

Also we're getting more options via Dragon and Dungeon online. Already they've done a heroic tier build for wizards (illusion), fleshed out warforged (including race-restricted paragon paths), given a playtest version of a class due out in Eberron (artificer), as well as a scattering of new monsters, magic items, and other things. This is done to encourage use of DDI by the playerbase. Again it's core but optional.

The druid was held back for a variety of reasons: 1) it wasn't one of the three power sources in the first PHB, 2) it's wanted enough but not 'core' enough to be needed right at release but will drum up sales, 3) it was severely unbalanced and lacking a unique focus in 3e so needed heavy reworking. It's in playtest mode now and is slated for PHB2 (March 2009) along wiht Bard, Barbarian, and Sorceror (though nothing is set in stone about any of them yet).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jazral Jul 04, 2008 15:50:02	I've been looking over the fourth edition release dates and I find many things that are strange. After reading the Monster Manual it became totally clear to me that many iconic monsters are missing. Why is MM2 not going to show until May 2009? Wouldn't September/October be more useful? Also, why are we expanding existing classes instead of releasing the classes that have been somewhat iconic to the game for the last 25 years or so (can anyone say druid or monk)? PH2 in 2009 (Feb or April my mind in going numb). Yes, I know that martial classes are extremely popular, but the wizard and cleric have been totally altered. Wouldn't it be better to put more options out for classes that have been seriously gutted (not in power but in the expected number of options) before giving more to classes that have been made more interesting by the rule changes? So Arcane in March 2009 but Martial in 2008? When do the clerics get their expansion, November 2009? Do we really need magic items to be the first supplement to be released? Didn't they say something somewhere in the books that magic items would be less defining than the actual powers of the classes? If this is so, why are we expanding something inherently less important than concepts that are more important? I'm not wondering why they are not releasing product faster;p I fully understand the economics and internal resource limitations of a well run business. I just find their choices a little strange. Of course I could simply be totally out of touch with the bulk of consumers out there. So, is the release schedule a little strange, or am I clueless? Jazral
#2 ranadiel Jul 04, 2008 16:13:56	I'll go with cluesless, but I'm also mean spirited. :p The MM2(and PHB2 and DMG2) won't be showing up later this year because first of all they do need time to fill those books up with everything and do at least some playtesting. Also they are only releasing onea year so as to alleviate some bloat(otherwise we might end up with 10 Monster Manuals a year with maybe one good one). Monk and Druid have hardly been iconic for the entire lifetime of D&D(I'd actually they have never been iconic, but that is another discussion entirely). However the reason that they are expanding other classes first is because they are ready to expand classes, and they have made the decision to only release new classes in PHBs and Campaign Settings. Martial characters are getting their expansion book first because they are the first one ready for an expansion. If you'll notice, martial is the only power source with more then 2 classes atm. As you'll also note Arcane Power is being released around the same time as the PHB2, which will have at least 2 arcane classes in it. So martial characters get their expansion first because they are the first ones ready for it. And they will probably wait a few months before releasing Divine Power because they do have limits on how much they can write at once. And are you really saying we shouldn't have hundreds of magic items released quickly? Magic items might not define a character's power, but that doesn't mean they aren't fun. Besides I imagine that making a magic item takes a lot less time then it does to make just about anything else except for maybe a feat, and a book dedicated solely to feats would not go over well I imagine.
#3 enigmashock Jul 04, 2008 16:15:42	That's a good question, and I am not sure what their reasoning is. My guess, however, is that it centers around market and business strategy. 1st off, the PHB was severely deficient in equipment, weapons and specifics about wagons, and vehicles. My guess is that there is a "sweet spot" in the RPG publishing business for what the ideal page count for perceived value is, versus the minimum amount of pages needed to achieve said value to minimize printing costs. In addition, they are looking to make each volume have just enough "indispensable" information that it will be considered a "must have." This is the business strategy part of the equation. Apply that to the PhB and it is obvious that they left the cupboard bare (in terms of equipment) to justify a new arms and equipment guide/magic item compendium - only this time they are packing it with necessary info regarding ships, vehicles, mounts, equipment and items, thereby making it "indispensable." As far as the market strategy is concerned, I would look to similar products arriving at similar times each year. My guess would include 2-3 core books (PHB, MM) per year, 2 core setting books a year(Forgotten realms Player Handbook, etc) , 2-4 player supplements (Martial Power, etc), 2-4 setting supplements (Manual of the planes), 2-4 monster supplements (Draconomicon, etc) and at least 6 modules of various flavors, at least for the next two years. Also look for a set of dungeon tiles each quarter, and probably some other books as well. When they need to really squeeze, they will start rolling out Races of books. All of that is based only on what we know now, but if you look at the releases, you can see a pattern emerging. I think they will drag out 3E classes and races to at least PHBIII, making the old timers sweat it out and be motivated to drop $90+ to get what they wanted for $30.
#4 Belorin Jul 04, 2008 16:18:32	Not totally clueless, but... No , really, WotC planned it like this, they said early on that they would be releasing a new set of core books(PHB,MM, DMG) every year. As for the power source books they don't want to release an Arcane book until they have a good number of Arcane classes. PHB I had four martial, two arcane and two divine characters, so martial would come out first. PHB II is going to contain more arcane and divine, plus a new power source Primal. It should cover Barbarians, Druids and two other primal classes as well as two arcane and divine classes. By the way new classes and races will only be offered in the annual PHB's or in campaign setting player guides, for example the Swordmage in the Forgotten Realms and the Artificer in Eberron. Now you know the rest of the story, Bel
#5 Grazel Jul 04, 2008 18:47:27	Also Tome of Treasure isn't just magic items. It includes equipment, vehicles, weapons, possibly even more armor options and mounts (I think a snippet somewhere mentioned elephant in relation to the book). Martial Power comes out first because martial is currently the only power source with 4+ classes to it. Arcane comes out just after PHB2 since we're expecting 2 more arcane classes in it bringing the total to 5 (2 for PHB, 2 for PHB2, and 1 from FR Player's Guide in Sept). Divine will likely come out in the second half fo 2009 along with Eberron books. PHB2 is going to focus on primal, arcane, and divine classes like the first focuses on martial, arcane, and divine. This is a strategy by WotC to group classes by power source and focus each book in a narrow spectrum. Also with limiting classes to just the PHBs and CSPGs (Campaign Setting Player's Guide) it makes it easier to locate classes. the powers books only present powers, feats, epic destinies, paragon paths, powers, and other enhancements to the classes of a power source but doesn't introduce new base classes. As for the MM's having more than one a year could be tricky as they want to playtest monsters as well as classes. Also with the new style of doing it they need ot have art for every monster, and make sure they have enough interesting monsters in the book to make it worth purchasing. They've also deliberately held back some 'iconic' classes, monsters, etc. to get people to buy more books and reinforce WotC's status that anything they publish for 4e is considered core (not to be confused with mandatory since at DM discretion ANYTHING is optional no matter where it's published). Also we're getting more options via Dragon and Dungeon online. Already they've done a heroic tier build for wizards (illusion), fleshed out warforged (including race-restricted paragon paths), given a playtest version of a class due out in Eberron (artificer), as well as a scattering of new monsters, magic items, and other things. This is done to encourage use of DDI by the playerbase. Again it's core but optional. The druid was held back for a variety of reasons: 1) it wasn't one of the three power sources in the first PHB, 2) it's wanted enough but not 'core' enough to be needed right at release but will drum up sales, 3) it was severely unbalanced and lacking a unique focus in 3e so needed heavy reworking. It's in playtest mode now and is slated for PHB2 (March 2009) along wiht Bard, Barbarian, and Sorceror (though nothing is set in stone about any of them yet).