Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tonguewrestler_dup Aug 26, 2008 21:56:14	I've been reading through the past threads on the "Future Releases" and "Strikers" boards, and I've found a scant few references to rapier-wielding swashbucklers. What's more is that the vast majority of them are focused around Rogues. While I appreciate the Rogue class and all it can accomplish, I'm having a hard time fitting my duelist character concept into it both mechanically and thematically. In my mind, and I may be a minority here, the two simply do not mesh well. It may have been a bit of a poorly designed class, but Complete Warrior's 3.5 Swashbuckler was the exact style I had in mind. A half-step between the combat prowess and vigor of the Fighter and the mobility and agility of the Rogue - all of which dovetailed nicely into the Duelist Prestige Class. Has there been any word on the possibility of the Swashbuckler being re-introduced, or should I just be a little more flexible and make an attempt to tailor the Rogue to my liking? I appreciate your responses, in advance.
#2 generic_poster Aug 26, 2008 22:19:10	There are no more martial classes coming out in the PHBII, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of martial classes further down the line. There will be a martials powers handbook, which will greatly expand the powers, feats and options available for current marital characters. However, I think there are currently some decent options available now for what you are looking for. If you don't want to go for the rogue, you can do a rapier and shield high dexterity fighter. Don't forget to check out the Mithredrain Dragon article for more light blade powers to choose from.
#3 Thorvald_Grimbjorn Aug 26, 2008 22:27:07	Perhaps there will be a Swashbuckler Paragon Path in "Martial Power".
#4 dr_nafork Aug 26, 2008 23:32:10	Rapier Swordmage ?
#5 generic_poster Aug 26, 2008 23:53:45	Rapier Swordmage ? A rapier swordmage would be way too magical to be what one would normally consider a swashbuckler, although in a magical world I suppose it could fit. Depending on how you conceive of a swashbuckler, either a rogue (either type), lightblade fighter as mentioned earlier, or twf ranger would probably work better though. The fighter build I mentioned earlier would be the most historically accurate, since the name 'swashbuckler' comes from boastful fighters who make the sound of the sword 'swashing' against a buckler. So they were literally lightly armored sword and board fighters originally. However, swashbucklers are usually portrayed in film and different media without the shield, sometimes just with a one handed sword and sometimes duel-wielding a sword and main gauche. Whichever class you go with, I'd probably pick up the acrobatics skill just because it fits most swashbucklers pretty well, maybe even multiclass rogue for a few powers such as tumble.
#6 belladonna5012 Aug 27, 2008 0:31:23	It's worth noting that rogues actually have pretty good combat prowess now--but yes, I can understand how it doesn't fit every rapier-wielding concept out there. Fighters do get some nice light blade powers between the PHB (which sadly seems to forget light blades at higher levels) and the Mithrendain article. If you get Dex 18, that's a pretty good boost to your Reflex and light blade powers and lets you ditch scale for hide without any loss of AC--but that can be a little challenging to get and I certainly wouldn't recommend an Str of less than 16 while you're at it, which makes brute rogue powers a better pick from rogue multiclassing than artful dodger ones. However, it has been mentioned that fighters will get a two-weapon build in Martial Power, and we don't know what it will look like yet (hopefully we'll get a juicy preview in next month's preview, but we may or may not). We don't know if it'll be based on Str or Dex (or Str-primary/Dex-secondary like the extant blade powers, or whatever), or what weapons it will apply to, or anything like that, but if it ends up being sufficiently Dex-y, you may decide a rapier and an off-hand light blade is right for your swashbuckler fighter. It was slightly implied that rogues would also get a two-weapon build, which may or may not be what you're looking for. I've also heard tell--but cannot confirm for certain--that the fighter will get a "sword dancer" build in Martial Power (I've also heard there'll be a feat that allows Dex for basic attacks, but I don't know if that's really for sure or, if it is, if it will be in Martial Power). One of the WotC staff (Rodney) talked about his eladrin wand (read: Dex) wizard multiclassing into fighter and taking some longsword powers that worked well with his agility; it was mentioned that the multiclassing feat and the powers were from Martial Power. So fighters might be getting Dex-primary blade powers in Martial Power... Or perhaps it'll just be a more intensive Str-primary/Dex-secondary path, despite the fact that the basic build is already well-covered in the PHB and Dragon and adding more powers along those lines would not be a new build but simply a few more powers for an extant build. Worth noting: In the Races and Classes book released a ways back, the two-weapon fighter was explicitly mentioned as a potential fighter build for splats, and now it's confirmed for a splat. The "dancing fencer" (their words, not mine) was also mentioned in the very same sentence, and I wouldn't be surprised if this "sword dancer" build I've heard of is in fact coming in Martial Power and is what became of this hypothetical "dancing fencer" build. Also worth noting: one of the dev videos said there'd be a new weapon, presumably a base weapon instead of just magical properties, that's good for fencer types. My money (purely speculation on my part, mind) is on a main gauche, since it's hard to imagine something like a smallsword or epee getting its own stat block separate from the extant light blades. Also, you should take a closer look at the brute rogue and artful dodger rogue and consider whether your character might actually fit into those archetypes, particularly if you add multiclassing. It's all right if they don't fit, but they're worth looking at. Did that help?
#7 KenkakuKnight Aug 27, 2008 1:41:45	Can you explain to me why you can't reflavor the rogue to be a swashbuckler? It might just be my idea of a duelist type character, but I think a rogue is easily made into a fencing menace (much more so than a fighter). Here are my reason why: Dexterity has always been important for those that choose the life of buckling swashes for a living, not Strength. I imagine the Sneak Attack as more of a duelist capitalizing on an opportune moment, without all the sneak. He sees a lax in the opponent's defenses, and strikes for maximum efficiency. This is moving away from the cinematic fencer, but fencers are, in general, pretty mobile fighters. Where as defenders are suppose to "batten down the hatches" (so to speak), the rogue keeps moving, adding to the feel of a duelist better.
#8 Omni-Wyvernil Aug 27, 2008 1:44:01	I think the martial power book will help with a swashbuckler build, since there will probably be more rogue and fighter powers that will fit the concept (maybe even some swashbuckling/dread pirate-type paragon paths). Between these (and more TWF powers for fighters or rogues that will mitigate the need for a ranger dip), there probably doesn't need to be a separate swashbuckler class.
#9 pauln6 Aug 27, 2008 2:59:43	A rapier wielding trickster rogue, possibly with some of the dex based fighter-defender powers from the Mithrendain article (or vice versa wth a view to taking a rogue-based paragon path). Martial Powers will likely have some new feats and powers to help a define a more defender-based swashbuckler build. Swashbuckler doesn't need or deserve a class of its own; there are going to be a lot of possiblilites for such a build.
#10 That_Blasted_Somoflange Aug 27, 2008 5:51:18	I would say try to be a bit more flexible. It may help us all, if you tell us what doesn't fit about the rogue. Is it the thievery skill? The powers? The term rogue? Did you want to use a shield? You can build a decent dex based fighter as is. yes, you'll still need a high strength, but it can be done. For instance, if you were to say build a fighter with a higher dex then strength, this should influence your at-will choices. I would take Sure Strike - it gives a +2 bonus to attack, but at the cost of extra strength damage but gives a bonus to hit equal to a strength of 4 points higher. Reaping Strike, assuming you have at least a 14 strength is a good second. This allows you to always do minor damage. With your high dex you'll have decent AC with leather or hide. As for encounter powers, Passing attack at level one and Villain's menance all give bonuses to attack in some way or another which will aid a potentially lower strength score. Level 3 encounters, you would take armour piercing thrust, it attacks reflex. Usually one of the lower NAD's (Non armour defense) Rain of steel. lvl 5 daily, it's a stance automatic damage. at 11th level, your paragon path should be sword master. Really, if you look at fighter, you can build a lower str character and still be effective - you just have to play to your strengths. Though not a traditional swashbuckling weapon, a scimitar is a good choice for a high dex character because of scimitar dance feat, damage on a miss is always good. The point is, don't get caught up in the name of a feat, power or class. Look at the benefits of each, and if it fits your character take it. Most of the times, the names and fluff can be changed. Think outside the box as it were. You don't need to have swashbuckler written on your character sheet to buckle some swashes, especially when fighter or rogue can do fine - though, you can rename your class too if it will help.
#11 drothgery Aug 27, 2008 16:34:14	It may have been a bit of a poorly designed class, but Complete Warrior's 3.5 Swashbuckler was the exact style I had in mind. A half-step between the combat prowess and vigor of the Fighter and the mobility and agility of the Rogue - all of which dovetailed nicely into the Duelist Prestige Class. Has there been any word on the possibility of the Swashbuckler being re-introduced, or should I just be a little more flexible and make an attempt to tailor the Rogue to my liking? I appreciate your responses, in advance. There's probably still room for a swashbuckler class (and I think some WotC people or freelancers have said as much), but I think this would be the light-weapon martial defender; another light-weapon martial striker would be better served by the Rogue or Ranger (two-weapon build; rapier and dagger or dual rapier).
#12 tonguewrestler_dup Aug 27, 2008 19:31:08	The point is, don't get caught up in the name of a feat, power or class. Look at the benefits of each, and if it fits your character take it. Most of the times, the names and fluff can be changed. Think outside the box as it were. You don't need to have swashbuckler written on your character sheet to buckle some swashes, especially when fighter or rogue can do fine - though, you can rename your class too if it will help. You have a valid point. I suppose I'm getting too wrapped up in the semantics of my concept and forgetting that everything is mutable. Essentially, what I was aiming for was a lightly (or un-) armored melee combatant with great mobility and an emphasis on both dexterity and intelligence. I don't think the Warlord would be my cup of tea - I'm trying to find a blend of Striker and Defender. The aforementioned Swordmage looks interesting, and when the Forgotten Realms Players Guide is released, I'll be taking a look at that, but for altogether different reasons. Into each edition, some rain must fall. I will take a closer look at the two Rogue builds, light blade Fighter powers, and how I can include racial traits to enhance the concept. Thank you all for your advice. I welcome you to continue this discussion, if you so desire. I may chime in on a few of your points, as I'm always open for more suggestions.