The weapon expertise feat grants bonuses to weapon powers.
I really hope this is the wording in the rules. Because then there's no frakkin' way they can keep up the sham of weapon focus granting bonuses to implement powers...
Because then there's no frakkin' way they can keep up the sham of weapon focus granting bonuses to implement powers...
Weapon Focus is worded different than Weapon Expertise, that's why WF applies and WE does not. The wording of WE has no effect at all at how WF works unless the update WF to use the same wording. At the moment WF applying to implement-weapons and WE not applying to implement-weapons will co-exist
I hope that they will release an update or FAQ answer saying that WE also applies to the weapon used as an implement, otherwise Paladins, Clerics, Avengers, and Swordmages are at a disadvantage
Even if they're not feat bonuses, not even untyped bonuses from the same source stack.
Can you point me to where it says that? Ive been looking for it.
Weapon Focus is worded different than Weapon Expertise, that's why WF applies and WE does not.
Precisely my point: they need to errata that wording.
I hope that they will release an update or FAQ answer saying that WE also applies to the weapon used as an implement, otherwise Paladins, Clerics, Avengers, and Swordmages are at a disadvantage
Oh ho, so you're on the other side of the fence, eh? :P
Because I'm not a moron, see. And as a DM I'm not completely incompetent at intuiting the intention of a rule, nor am I a computer who has no choice but to apply flawed code and crash.
Oh ho, so you're on the other side of the fence, eh? :P
So you're of the opinion that they should be set at a disadvantage?
Weapon Focus is worded different than Weapon Expertise, that's why WF applies and WE does not. The wording of WE has no effect at all at how WF works unless the update WF to use the same wording. At the moment WF applying to implement-weapons and WE not applying to implement-weapons will co-exist
I hope that they will release an update or FAQ answer saying that WE also applies to the weapon used as an implement, otherwise Paladins, Clerics, Avengers, and Swordmages are at a disadvantage
Paladins, Clerics, and Avengers don't use their weapon as an implement, they carry a separate holy symbol (unless your deity has a special weapon that counts).
Such a change, then would normally only apply to Swordmages.
So you're of the opinion that they should be set at a disadvantage?
No, there is no disadvantage. Their weapon powers are mostly melee, while the implement powers are mostly ranged. A pure weapon user also has to take 2 feats, with different weapons, to get both melee and ranged capability.
There are weapon and implement powers i know the artificer has a level 5 daily that does this.
There are very few weapons that have 2 weapon types attatched to them AFAIK only the double sword and double spiked chain have +3 to hit naturally and both require feats to get (double spiked chain requires a multiclass feat). A charater building to get a total of + 5 to hit over +3 will have to invest 3 feats for it. Yes it gives them an advantage in the hitting department but for 3 feats +10% to hit is nice but i'd hesitate to call it game breaking. (dpr kings will still be those that do flat static damage without needing rolls to hit such as stormwarden).
Finally paladins clerics ect can all use holy avengers regaurdless of god. So at epic tier it would apply to them as well. Honestly Pallies and SM are so bogged down in needed feats and manditory stat spreads ect that i woudln't mind seeing them get some slack cut thier way.
Honestly Pallies and SM are so bogged down in needed feats and manditory stat spreads ect that i woudln't mind seeing them get some slack cut thier way.
But should that slack come from a reading of feat that many would already argue is too powerful or would it better come from another source?
There are weapon and implement powers i know the artificer has a level 5 daily that does this.
The fact that there is one and only one power with both and it is a "Playtest" release makes me think it is a typo and will be errata'd.
The fact that there is one and only one power with both and it is a "Playtest" release makes me think it is a typo and will be errata'd.
I think what's needed is a clarification of the Artifice keyword, I'm not exactly sure what this power (Dancing Weapon) does. I would guess that it makes its attack as if the character was wielding it, but this isn't spelled out.
As for it having the Implement keyword, I suppose flavor-wise you're pointing your wand or whatever at the weapon to animate it. Maybe the intent is to make you juggle what you're wielding so you're holding both (and have stowed your ranged weapon), but it all feels like its not been completely thought through.
Arguably, you can take Weapon Expertise: Polearm and Weapon Expertise: Heavy Blade, and then wield a glaive. Its stupid, of course. But a strict reading probably lets you do it.
Well, of course with a double weapon, you are only attacking with one side at a time.
Special: You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to
the attack roll when using a pact blade as an implement.
I don't think they designed the two expertises to stack.
Oh ho, so you're on the other side of the fence, eh? :P
There are only two sides:
a) need only a weapon or need only an implement
b) need both
Paladins, Clerics, and Avengers don't use their weapon as an implement, they carry a separate holy symbol (unless your deity has a special weapon that counts).
Such a change, then would normally only apply to Swordmages.
All of them have the option of gettinga weapon that doubles as a holy symbol (holy avenger, crusader weapon, disrupting weapon, blade of bahamut, and others I can't recall from the top of my head at the moment. While some are only for high levels (e.g. the holy avenger) others are attainable at pretty low levels (e.g. disrupting weapons))
No, there is no disadvantage. Their weapon powers are mostly melee, while the implement powers are mostly ranged. A pure weapon user also has to take 2 feats, with different weapons, to get both melee and ranged capability.
A pure weapon user can have a weapon capable of doing both (e.g. dagger throwing rogue) or will only use one form of weapon combat anyway (because his stats suck for using the other one).
A fighter with bad Dex won't be making ranged powers, even a melee ranger might think twice about "wasting" any feats for ranged attacks
No, there is no disadvantage. Their weapon powers are mostly melee, while the implement powers are mostly ranged. A pure weapon user also has to take 2 feats, with different weapons, to get both melee and ranged capability.
unless they use axes, hammers, or light blades...
unless they use axes, hammers, or light blades...
Of course, how could I forget about heavy thrown weapons
Not to mention Rangers are essentially the only martial class the whole dichotomy applies to, and unlike Clerics/Paladins they have Viable choices that aren't Ranged attacks at Each level.
Actually, strength clerics have a viable (though not always optimal) melee choice at every level. It's only strength paladins that are noticeably incomplete in their options.
At any rate, that still means that comparing the implement/weapon needing classes to ranged options for a melee class isn't right.