From Ranadiel's Thread wrote:
Anyway I don't have the campaign guide to look at this, can you quote what it says just to make sure this isn't some kind of typo and it was supposed to be avenger and someone forgot to change it.
can you quote what it says just to make sure this isn't some kind of typo and it was supposed to be avenger and someone forgot to change it.
Unfortunately not. Although I'd be surprised if it were a typo given it was released many months after PHB2.
It is probably an artifact from when the Avenger was going to be named the Templar. Notice the Avenger is absent from the list. Remember, this book was being written around the same time PHB2 was.
Ok, this is what I wanted to know, oh well. I suppose more love for heavy armor using classes is still an unknown (though if the ph3 cover is any indication there is at least hope).
It is probably an artifact from when the Avenger was going to be named the Templar. Notice the Avenger is absent from the list. Remember, this book was being written around the same time PHB2 was.
Avengers would be absent from the list. Here's the quote:
"Most individuals with character classes who are ordained to the church's service (particularly clerics, paladins, templars, invokers, and other divine classes, but also including characters who use other power sources) are members of the Order of Templars."
Note: Avengers have never been intended to be a part of the church's service. Quote from the PHB2:
"In secret temples far from bustling cities and priestly hierarchies, orders of esoteric warriors train their initiates in ancient traditions now forgotten or forbidden by most religious organizations... imbued with divine power through secret rites of initiation... As an avenger, you were trained in a monastery, initiated through secret rites... The organizations devoted to your god might view you as a heretic or a hero, but you answer only to your god and to the vows you swore upon your initiation as an avenger."
So. Avengers wouldn't really make sense in that list; they make better sense left out of it. And I doubt an artifact of really really really early Avenger design would last for that long in something like the ECG without anyone noticing, especially since we seem to have noticed so quickly. And there's a heavily armored runic minotaur wielding a giant mace on the front of PHB3, meaning there is at least 1 heavily armored 2-hander using class in there.
It could be primal or psionic, but then: No Primal class so far has used heavy armor, it just doesn't fit that well. And that looks like Plate to me.
And it just doesn't feel right for Psionic; again, that looks like plate, and those runes don't look Psionic. Runes usually mean one of two things: Arcane, or Divine. And there aren't any Arcane classes in there.
So....
Avengers would be absent from the list. Here's the quote:
"Most individuals with character classes who are ordained to the church's service (particularly clerics, paladins, templars, invokers, and other divine classes, but also including characters who use other power sources) are members of the Order of Templars."
Note: Avengers have never been intended to be a part of the church's service. Quote from the PHB2:
The problem here is that Avengers are ordained members of the faith. Secret members, but members nonetheless.
Invokers are not, being that their ordinances pre-date the organized arms of their faith.
The problem here is that Avengers are ordained members of the faith. Secret members, but members nonetheless.
Invokers are not, being that their ordinances pre-date the organized arms of their faith.
Aye, that kind of flavor text, especially when in regards to a table, doesn't seem to, sadly, be given a second thought by it's writers.
The problem here is that Avengers are ordained members of the faith. Secret members, but members nonetheless.
Invokers are not, being that their ordinances pre-date the organized arms of their faith.
Okay, whether or not you think Avengers should be in that list:
Who the hell is that on the cover if it's not a templar?
The Church of the Silver Flame has an order of Templars, even harkening back in 3.5. It can be found on Page 59 of Faiths of Eberron. It states for this Order of Templars that it is full of Warriors, a substantial ammount of Fighters and Monks, and a few Clerics. Almost all of the Paladins in the service of the Silver Flame are members of the Order of Templars.
I have a feeling it's just fluff that's been kept around from 3.5.
And I doubt an artifact of really really really early Avenger design would last for that long in something like the ECG without anyone noticing, especially since we seem to have noticed so quickly.
What about the problem with all the Doppleganger references in EPG, when they have the race listed as Changeling? Editting mistakes happen all the time.
I'm still waiting for an answer :P
Another thing that it could be is that it's just a denominational name.
The Church of the Silver Flame has an order of Templars, even harkening back in 3.5. It can be found on Page 59 of Faiths of Eberron. It states for this Order of Templars that it is full of Warriors, a substantial ammount of Fighters and Monks, and a few Clerics. Almost all of the Paladins in the service of the Silver Flame are members of the Order of Templars.
I have a feeling it's just fluff that's been kept around from 3.5.
This! Basically adventuring members of the Silver Flame are part of the Order of Templars. I believe there were other Orders for the other branches of the SF.
Sorry folks, it's Eberron fluff.
This! Basically adventuring members of the Silver Flame are part of the Order of Templars. I believe there were other Orders for the other branches of the SF.
Sorry folks, it's Eberron fluff.
Read the rest of the thread. I posted that picture for a reason.
This! Basically adventuring members of the Silver Flame are part of the Order of Templars. I believe there were other Orders for the other branches of the SF.
Sorry folks, it's Eberron fluff.
Did the read the text in question at all?
Most individuals with character classes who are ordained to the church's service (particularly clerics, paladins, templars, invokers, and other divine classes, but also including characters who use other power sources)...
Given the context, the templar is clearly meant as a divine character class. The only question is whether it is a new character class or was meant as a reference to the Avenger which wasn't updated when the name was changed that made it past the editors.
Read the rest of the thread. I posted that picture for a reason.
If you're referring to the Avenger copy, I highly suspect that it's fluff that's willingly ignored. The "setting" fluff overrides the default fluff in this circumstance.
If you look to the Lycanthrope Scourge initiated by the Church of the Silver Flame, I'm sure they willingly had tons of Avengers chasing and hunting down Lycans. The Church of the Silver Flame is overtly militant and one of the core tenets is to hunt down and kill evil where it lives. If that doesn't sound like an organization for Avengers, I don't know what one is.
Given the context, the templar is clearly meant as a divine character class. The only question is whether it is a new character class or was meant as a reference to the Avenger which wasn't updated when the name was changed that made it past the editors.
I'm working with the assumption of the later.
I'm working with the assumption of the later.
Why? The Avenger has been the Avenger for a long time, and it was at least a few months after Player's Handbook 2 came out that the ECG came out. It's not like the Changeling/Doppelganger thing, where they might have had a name change only moments before it was released. I'd guess that they'd have had at least 6 months of the Avenger being called the avenger before the ECG came out, and certainly no less than 3 or 4. Maybe even closer to a year.
And If you don't think they mean a new class, then what is that on the cover of the PHB3? It's certainly not Primal, and I really doubt that it's Psionic.
(The gith is obviously a monk)
And If you don't think they mean a new class, then what is that on the cover of the PHB3? It's certainly not Primal, and I really doubt that it's Psionic.
I suspect a Psychic Warrior (of whatever they'll be called in 4e)
I suspect a Psychic Warrior (of whatever they'll be called in 4e)
You really think there will be a Psionic class in full plate with a giant runic hammer and no visible traces of anything psionic? And that a minotaur would be good at it?
Note that the only two power sources so far that have anyone using heavy armor is Martial and Divine. Psionic so far has only shown 2 classes, but neither of them wear anything but cloth.
If that's really a Psionic class on the cover there, I will be so very dissapointed in WotC. Of any of the Power sources, it is the one that least screams, "HEY GUYS IMA SMASH YOU WIF' MY HAMMER! LOOKIT MY PLATE ARMOR!"
And If you don't think they mean a new class, then what is that on the cover of the PHB3?
Who knows? We'll find out when it comes out.
But do we really need another divine, plate wearing class that has the capability of using big 2 handed weapons? Really? Just play a strength pally. Honestly there's so much overlap there that it isn't even funny. I honestly can't think of any classes that would have that much design overlap. "But, I don't get lay on hands, I get to do more damazorz!" isn't all that much for creativity. Furthermore, the Divine grid is filled. Granted, this is not as big of a point as the arcane has the grid filed with.. 1 defender, 2 leaders, 2 strikers, and 1 controller, but it is something to consider.
Furthermore, who says anything about the runes on the weapon being part of the class? Maybe there's a new weapon enchant called "Runeforged" weapon. Maybe those are a new type of magic item that is attached to a weapon, like the dragon shards in Eberron? Or maybe something like a weapon that expands the mind? Who says there can't be a primal class that uses heavy armor?
The thing that I'm just trying to point out is, there is really no basis to call that a templar. I've shown where I think it most likely is fluff with the Order of Templars that has existed since the campaign setting existed. It's not like Wizards hasn't made mistakes before.
Show me something more than "Here's a picture, if you can't come up with something that I like, you're wrong". Give a reason behind the picture. Ok, so there's a Minotaur with a 2 handed weapon and plate... That could mean a ton of things.
The Divine grid is filled.
There will be Divine classes there. Give me a divine archtype that isn't already "filled" anyways. Claiming that a Templar and a Paladin are too similar is like claiming that a cleric and an invoker are too similar. Or, more accurately, that the Sorcerer and the Wizard are too similar. And yet, WotC has managed to make them both feel very different.
Furthermore, who says anything about the runes on the weapon being part of the class? Maybe there's a new weapon enchant called "Runeforged" weapon. Maybe those are a new type of magic item that is attached to a weapon, like the dragon shards in Eberron?
There's runes all over his armor, and his eyes are glowing the same color.
Who says there can't be a primal class that uses heavy armor?
Anyone who understands what the Primal Power Source is.
Okay, fine. Then what is that on the cover?
I'm still waiting for an answer :P
While I have read your breakdown of this re. Plate and the trend to date, really it's a Minotaur with a two hander and heavy armor: if could be anything.
Look at the cover of PH1: is that Dragonborn a Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, or Warlord? All of them wear heavy armor, all of them have good cause to use 2-handed weapons, and Dragonborn make good members of all four classes.
Now, that said, I'm not in any way discounting the idea of the Templar. I was actually hoping that the Avenger would be a heavily armored, slow moving, chop chop machine more focused on breaking the line than slipping around past it; a Divine Bunker Buster.
I'm not saying Templar won't be in the book, just that the sidebar means little, the cover art could be anything, and so all in all we have very very little to go on.
And, yes, it could be a Psionic Minotaur: Psi Defender that uses weapons and armor and focuses on augmenting the power of their gear by scribing runes onto their gear for specific effects. Just because it would disappoint you doesn't mean it won't be in there.
While I have read your breakdown of this re. Plate and the trend to date, really it's a Minotaur with a two hander and heavy armor: if could be anything.
Look at the cover of PH1: is that Dragonborn a Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, or Warlord? All of them wear heavy armor, all of them have good cause to use 2-handed weapons, and Dragonborn make good members of all four classes.
Now, that said, I'm not in any way discounting the idea of the Templar. I was actually hoping that the Avenger would be a heavily armored, slow moving, chop chop machine more focused on breaking the line than slipping around past it; a Divine Bunker Buster.
I'm not saying Templar won't be in the book, just that the sidebar means little, the cover art could be anything, and so all in all we have very very little to go on.
And, yes, it could be a Psionic Minotaur: Psi Defender that uses weapons and armor and focuses on augmenting the power of their gear by scribing runes onto their gear for specific effects. Just because it would disappoint you doesn't mean it won't be in there.
Seeing as how the Dragonborn is not wearing Chainmail, it can't be the Warlord or the Cleric. And looking at the armor picture in the equipment section, that looks like scale to me. I'd guess he's a fighter, but if that's plate then he's a paladin. The chick next to him is a wizard (Fire + staff). On the PHB2, it's clearly a goliath barbarian/warden (more than likely barbarian, as wardens tend to use either heavy shield/ 1 hander or a polearm), and a razorclaw shifter panther shaman. Those races all fit the classes very well (Even Human works best on Wizard compared to all the other PHB1 classes, just by merit of how much that extra at-will meant), so I doubt that the Minotaur's class wouldn't either use mainly STR or CON.
The sidebar doesn't mean little; just because it's a single sentence doesn't make it any less of a valid clue. They're clearly talking about a character class when they say Templar, which means they're either talking about the Avenger with it's old name (Which was changed very very early, according to the Divine Power Podcast, and thus would leave them with at least 6 months, probably more like a year to notice and fix that), or a new class (Which makes sense, considering that the Avenger hardly falls into the same category as Cleric, Paladin, or Invoker with respect to church ordainment).
And I'm not saying it's Definitely a divine class on the cover. It could be something else. But templar makes far more sense than anything else. Can you honestly tell me it makes more sense to see a Psionic Defender in full plate with a fully corporeal two hander than it would for a Divine Striker? And then there's the whole Primal/Heavy Armor thing.
Psionic =/= runes, really. In most fantasy settings, runes almost always = divine or arcane. We know there won't be any arcane, and we know that there WILL be some divine. I could easily see the templar being differentiated from the Paladin and other strikers by way of a rune mechanic that added on to damage.
Now, admittedly, not all of these points are the most solid thing ever. Most of it is based off of speculation and earlier books. But at the same time, there's a lot of these points. And all I've heard against it is "Well maybe it's not."
So yeah. Maybe that's not a templar. Maybe it's some other power source. But Divine is by far the most likely.
EDIT: Also, that's not just "heavy armor". That's full plate, no debate (wow I rhymed!). The only other power source so far to use that is Divine, and the only power sources to use heavy armor at all are Divine and Martial. Primal has made a point of using only Light Armor, even for the defender, as has Arcane. And that seems to be the trend so far for Psionic.
EDIT: Also, that's not just "heavy armor". That's full plate, no debate (wow I rhymed!).
Meh... it could easily be tooled leather armor. His leggings are leather with some scale stickign out, with some sort of cloth... sash?
Light reflects off polished leather pretty well. I don't see anything to suggest plate armor. It doesn't cover enough to be plate.
I don't see anything to suggest plate armor.
Other than his plate gauntlets, and chestpiece, and shoulders, and boots, and leggings. Just because he has a flap of leather and cloth covering his plate leggings does not suddenly make them any less plate; they're uncovered from the knee down and you can see what they are.
You really think there will be a Psionic class in full plate with a giant runic hammer and no visible traces of anything psionic? And that a minotaur would be good at it?
Note that the only two power sources so far that have anyone using heavy armor is Martial and Divine. Psionic so far has only shown 2 classes, but neither of them wear anything but cloth.
If that's really a Psionic class on the cover there, I will be so very dissapointed in WotC. Of any of the Power sources, it is the one that least screams, "HEY GUYS IMA SMASH YOU WIF' MY HAMMER! LOOKIT MY PLATE ARMOR!"
While I wouldn't mind the Templar appearing in the PHB3, their is plenty of precedence for a class that uses psychic ability to bolster their combat prowess. Just because a guy is wearing heavy armor and using a big weapon doesn't mean he is a simpleton and incapable of using mental abilities.
As others have said, the 3.5 psychic warrior was a psionic class that was proficient in heavy armor and martial weapons. They didn't have to wield a big two-hander but often did. (In addition to the general superiorty of two-handed weapons over sword and shield in 3.5, psychic warriors had access to the Force Screen power that gave them a +4 shield bonus at first level, far outstripping any physical shield available.
Metal shoulder pads (they arn't resting against his arms like a flexible armor would be) and the brestplate has a solid ring as a collar, implying the brestplate itself is metal as well.
Uh huh... leather legging with knee plates? Leather gloves. Sorry... not plate.
Okay, clearly you and I are interpretting the picture differently. Neither one of us is going to change each other's eyes.
Nonetheless, the shoulders and chestplate are hardly anything but plate. And just because it's not fully covering plate does not make it any less plate. If it was leather, it would still not be fully covering leather.
Also, there's spikes on those gauntlets, and they're contiguous with the material it's made from. I don't think you can do that with Leather.
In any case, it's far more likely that if the artist had meant to draw leather, he would have drawn regular leather and not shiny-metal-looking leather.
Those are not leather gloves. Leather is never segmented like that- those are metal gauntlets, complete with rivets,
Metal shoulder pads (they arn't resting against his arms like a flexible armor would be) and the brestplate has a solid ring as a collar, implying the brestplate itself is metal as well.
Didn't notice this... thank you.
While I wouldn't mind the Templar appearing in the PHB3, their is plenty of precedence for a class that uses psychic ability to bolster their combat prowess. Just because a guy is wearing heavy armor and using a big weapon doesn't mean he is a simpleton and incapable of using mental abilities.
As others have said, the 3.5 psychic warrior was a psionic class that was proficient in heavy armor and martial weapons. They didn't have to wield a big two-hander but often did. (In addition to the general superiorty of two-handed weapons over sword and shield in 3.5, psychic warriors had access to the Force Screen power that gave them a +4 shield bonus at first level, far outstripping any physical shield available.
"Hits harder than a Paladin" or "Wears more armor than an Avenger" does not an interesting archetype make. We already have the grid filled, so if anything, Divine should be concentrating on exploring new territory, not on simple cosmetic changes and rebranding. A Templar that's just a Full Plate Striker wouldn't be separated enough from the current builds; he just does more damage than paladins, or has a different wardrobe than the avenger.
Instead, Divine should be focusing on archetypes completely unexplored in the field.
Personally, I'm hoping for a ranged weapon archetype, and I will squee like a fangirl if it isn't a Striker. A Divine Defender with a bow, for example, would be an awesome addition, drawing on the Shinto priest archetype and expanding the armory of divine characters. Have a marking mechanic that allows defending at a range, splash into leader for buffing effects or controller for the ability to create wards, walls, and repelling effects, and the class could be an awesome addition to the field.
Or maybe it will be an Incarnate, capable of manifesting angels, exarchs, and true divine force until he literally becomes a personification of his deity. Much like a dragon sorcerer can transform into a wyrm, the incarnate could channel enough divine energy to become a god, or at least an aspect of one.
Regardless, theme is vital. A mere cosmetic change or slight wardrobe transfer isn't enough to merit a new class, it has to break ground somewhere and take the power source to place it hasn't been.
Cover aside, I'd rather the divine classes be something more unique.
"Hits harder than a Paladin" or "Wears more armor than an Avenger" does not an interesting archetype make. We already have the grid filled, so if anything, Divine should be concentrating on exploring new territory, not on simple cosmetic changes and rebranding. A Templar that's just a Full Plate Striker wouldn't be separated enough from the current builds; he just does more damage than paladins, or has a different wardrobe than the avenger.
Instead, Divine should be focusing on archetypes completely unexplored in the field.
Personally, I'm hoping for a ranged weapon archetype, and I will squee like a fangirl if it isn't a Striker. A Divine Defender with a bow, for example, would be an awesome addition, drawing on the Shinto priest archetype and expanding the armory of divine characters. Have a marking mechanic that allows defending at a range, splash into leader for buffing effects or controller for the ability to create wards, walls, and repelling effects, and the class could be an awesome addition to the field.
Or maybe it will be an Incarnate, capable of manifesting angels, exarchs, and true divine force until he literally becomes a personification of his deity. Much like a dragon sorcerer can transform into a wyrm, the incarnate could channel enough divine energy to become a god, or at least an aspect of one.
Regardless, theme is vital. A mere cosmetic change or slight wardrobe transfer isn't enough to merit a new class, it has to break ground somewhere and take the power source to place it hasn't been.
As for the incarnate idea, I like it (But then, what you described is pretty much the Invoker). But then, who's to say that's not what that is on the cover? I'm arguing for the sake of a heavily armored divine striker, probably named the templar. Aside from that, he could have whatever theme is good; so don't rule him out as just a slightly different paladin or avenger. Like I said earlier, WotC did a great job differentiating Sorcerers and Wizards; they can do it again.
And even if he doesn't have something like incarnate whatever, he'd still be different. The Paladin is a defender, a protector of the faith. The Avenger is the silent assassin, who does questionable things because they are neccisary (A divine batman!). The Cleric is the head of the faith, priestly scholar who can also smash you over the head. The Invoker is the straight-from-god old-testament blast you with plagues and lightning guy.
And the templar is the crusader (Or so I'd guess).
Also, I don't know how you would defend at Ranged. I could see them trying out a divine bow class, but certainly not a defender.
And shinto, as much as it is a religion in the real world, fits much better with the Primal Power Source than the Divine one. I.E.: You're not calling on gods, but on the spirits of the natural world? That is Primal. Specifically primal. That's not even debatable.
Just saying that a templar would be a "divine striker in heavy armor" and that that would be boring is to ignore the fact that it can have it's own theme/archtype too. It can be the crusader. It can use runes (as it appears to). It can use something else. It can be divine force incarnate (although that's kinda already done with the invoker).
Saying that it would be boring, or not a new archtype, is like saying that the Sorcerer is just "a wizard with slightly different mechanics and a striker role". It could be considered truth. But the Sorcerer is so much more than that, and so could be the Templar.
Seeing as how the Dragonborn is not wearing Chainmail, it can't be the Warlord or the Cleric. And looking at the armor picture in the equipment section, that looks like scale to me. I'd guess he's a fighter, but if that's plate then he's a paladin.
This earns a facepalm.
Mostly because of the assumption that commissioned artwork is mechanically accurate to level 1 characters.
Secondly because the artwork in the books have Clerics wearing everything from robes to fullplate.
And upgrading from Chain to Scale is typically a high priority for Clerics and Warlords.
You're pulling this like taffy.
This earns a facepalm.
Mostly because of the assumption that commissioned artwork is mechanically accurate to level 1 characters.
Secondly because the artwork in the books have Clerics wearing everything from robes to fullplate.
And upgrading from Chain to Scale is typically a high priority for Clerics and Warlords.
You're pulling this like taffy.
I'm working with the only assumption you can: That it's normal armor, that the class is normally proficient in.
Any more than that, and you can't assume anything about any artwork, because any class can wear any armor with enough feats and the right ability scores, and any armor or equipment can also look like anything.
So yes. I'm assuming things are normal. This is the Future Releases subforum. We work with assumptions and speculations. Nothing is guaranteed. That's the POINT. To have any sort of reasonable discussion about things like this, you have to follow some general assumptions.
In any case, the PHB1 example was a minor point that is mostly irrelevant to my overall case.
In addition: Point me somewhere, anywhere in the PHB where it shows a cleric wearing more than chain?
Anyone who understands what the Primal Power Source is.
Wait a sec, you're sitting here reaching for explanation on something that may or may not happen based on the fact that wizards can differentiate things, yet you don't think there's a chance that there could be a primal class that does this? That would be like saying "Oh we can have another hide wearing primal striker, but it doesn't rage so it's different!"
It's very possible for a Primal class to potentially use heavy armor. Just as possible as it is for an arcane class to (Like the bard, who starts off proficient with chainmail)
Runes can be a very primal thing, using them as gateways for spirits to more easily affect the world. Armor? Is created from metal, which comes from the earth just as easily as a Hide comes from the wolf.
You also brought up earlier "What kind of Minotaur would be good at Psionic Things?" Just as easily, what kind of divine work would they be good for either?
What about an heavy-armored divine striker, with a touch a melee control ? His role is to plunge into melee and damage the most enemies he can reach (close blast and burst 1), and then stick in the fight (with the help of heavy armor, and a litte bit of control).
Then, it's not defending as there is no mark involved (that is his foes can leave the battle without being worried about damages).
What's more, he could be more like a simple warrior, with a simple faith (ie not strong enough to be infused with divine power like a cleric or a paladin), that is enough for him to be accepted by an order, which grant him runed weapon and armor. His power would not come directly from his faith, but from weapon granted by his strong ties with religious order.
IMO, it's has nothing in common with any other divine class, and what's more, it could give us another melee controler.
Wait a sec, you're sitting here reaching for explanation on something that may or may not happen based on the fact that wizards can differentiate things, yet you don't think there's a chance that there could be a primal class that does this? That would be like saying "Oh we can have another hide wearing primal striker, but it doesn't rage so it's different!"
It's very possible for a Primal class to potentially use heavy armor. Just as possible as it is for an arcane class to (Like the bard, who starts off proficient with chainmail)
Runes can be a very primal thing, using them as gateways for spirits to more easily affect the world. Armor? Is created from metal, which comes from the earth just as easily as a Hide comes from the wolf.
You also brought up earlier "What kind of Minotaur would be good at Psionic Things?" Just as easily, what kind of divine work would they be good for either?
Because Heavy armor would go against the entire trend set up by Primal classes, and not fit nearly as well thematically. it COULD happen, but it's very very unlikely. As I pointed out before, 4/4 Primal classes use light armor. It's not boring if they continue that way; rather, it fits the power source. I'm not basing this off the trend that WotC can make differing archtypes really stand out. That has nothing to do with whether or not they then break their own trend for Primal characters.
(I forgot about the bard, but my point on Primal classes still stands)
Minotaurs have quite a lot dealing with divine, actually. Read through the "Playing Minotaurs" article.
And I have yet to see a single fantasy setting where runes are primal instead of arcane or divine. Show me one, and I might be more inclined to believe you.
I'm still confused on what the arguing is about; There are more clues that it's a Divine Striker, probably named the Templar, than there are for anything else. I'm not saying it's definite. It theoretically could be anything. He could be a ranged controller who wields two-handed weapons purely as implements. As it is, only WotC knows. All I'm saying is what it's most likely to be.
EDIT: Also, if they implement another Primal Striker, I'd expect a Shinto-style Archer instead of anything melee. But that's off-topic.
You really think there will be a Psionic class in full plate with a giant runic hammer and no visible traces of anything psionic? And that a minotaur would be good at it?
Since A) many are expecting or at least hoping the Psionic Defender will be Con based (though since every defender has Str as a Primary or Secondary Minotaurs win either way), B) 3.5e Psychic Warriors, the most likely inspiration for the 4e version, wore plate, and C) had a tendency towards two-handers ...
Yes, there's a very good chance that's the Psionic Defender.
This earns a facepalm.
Mostly because of the assumption that commissioned artwork is mechanically accurate to level 1 characters.
Beat me to it. Couldn't agree more.
The concept changed and that's why the Avenger is the Avenger now right?
I thought I heard that in the podcast...but darn if I can't remember right now what it was that changed
Thinking back on what a templar is...it's a warrior for a god.
I'm going to have to stop you there and give you and the rest of this board a little history lesson. The templars for starters were an organization. Now granted some of them were knights that fought in the crusades but in reality that was only a tiny fraction of the templar organization as a whole, the majority of them were peasants and farmers mostly working vineyards, or they were basically bankers, after all the templar organization is credited with creating the first prototype of what is our modern credit system. Beyond that the templars were ordered to their death by the pope because they had too much political power which in the end is what the templars always were, a political organization. Now that aside the templars of the original crusade were basically the suicide bombers of the crusade, and before the forum gets all stirred up on that point let me put out their view. The templar knights of the first crusade fought as recklessly and valiantly as they could to kill as many Muslims as they could because they believed that should they die in battle they would become a martyr and be rewarded in heaven by god (sound familiar? though granted what few templar knights actually did fight in later crusades were less overzealous). All in all history taken into account I think that templar is a terrible name for a class, and crusader would be a vastly better idea.
Thinking back on what a templar KNIGHT is...it's a warrior for a god. So I would say that leaves him open to a few possibilities. Martial, Primal, maybe Divine. Just because you were in his/her service, does not mean you are imbued with the power they offer. Maybe the gods grant gifts (magic items) to the templar, but not powers. You could have a Martial/Primal warrior with 'godly' items on a mission from said deity.
fixed
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/templar
The word Templar refers to Templar Knights (I just wanted to clarify what I was talking about). The dictionary backs me up on this as you will see with the above link. As for your history lesson, Christian and Muslims have both commited many attrocites in those days- so there were no 'good' guys. I don't think anyone is trying to say that these Templars are the ones back in the day in real life. I am talking about the pure meaning of what a Templar is and the definition of said word.
I am talking about the pure meaning of what a Templar is and the definition of said word.
What is the pure meaning of a templar? History is changed to suit those who write it, ever seen a japanese history book? You won't find the attack on pearl harbor in one, instead you'll find that the US involvement in WWII starts with the US victory of Midway making US look like the aggressors attacking Japan without cause. So once you take into account how much history gets changed what is the pure meaning of what a templar is? Well other than perhaps a murderer using the name of a religion as justification for his crimes, thats the pure meaning as I see it, does that make a good heroic class idea to you?
In addition to the monk... the samurai, shugenja, wu jen, and ninja are the four classes that were highlighted in the 3.5 Complete series... so any number of them might have been originally intended to be ported over to 4E as part of the ki source (and then re-assigned when ki went bye-bye).
Now that being said... the only one of those four who wore heavy armor was the samurai, and I think it's been mentioned previously that the samurai concept might possibly be better suited for a Dragon article "variant fighter" option (like the Gladiator was made to be), rather than it's own class. So it's probably safe to assume the minotaur probably isn't one of the former-kis... but at this point, who honestly knows?
I mean, if you consider that the Ki source was probably going to involve four of those five classes (of monk, samurai, shugenja, wu jen, ninja), once that source got blown up... there's no telling where they were going to send the classes, or even if they were going to retain them? Ninja might still be planned for the Shadow source, or for all we know, was killed off and its stuff stolen by the Assassin class they're releasing in September. The Samurai might eventually receive that "variant fighter" article in Dragon. The Shugenja and Wu Jen? Maybe in PHB3... maybe reworked... maybe tossed away altogether. And if any of that happened... perhaps they decided to fill the book out with some completely new ideas (which the Templar might very well be).
And finally... the last thing to consider is that despite the word 'Templar' being used as an organizational identity in Eberron's Order of the Silver Flame... the actual Templar class is a Dark Sun one. Perhaps (just speculation here) they intended to re-do the Templar in the Dark Sun Player's Guide (whenever that was to be released)... but decided that once the Ki classes were moved around elsewhere, they had an additional slot available to fill in? And releasing a Templar in PH3 would mean they'd have another class slot available in Dark Sun itself, thus possibly allowing the Preserver/Defiler classes a possibility of inclusion? This is all complete speculation of my part... but I at least did want to make the point that the Templar concept does have some foundation in D&D.
It's not out of the question to assume we'll get a heavily armored Divine class out of what is likely to be two more. Prior to 4e, it was their hallmark to be tin-can casters to some degree or another. 4e itself has broken the mold with a few clothies, but after PHB2, I can't help but think they've got a light armor fetish going on. I'm about 90% sure we'll see another Divine Striker, just because they're making sure that Strikers out-number the other roles. It could be armored, but because mobility (and not just damage) is an element of Strikerdom, that makes that at least a little difficult. More likely would be something with light weapons, or my personal prediction, another laser caster.
For the cover art, my money is on Psionic Defender, or at least something Psionic. Both characters on the PHB2 were Primal classes, because it was the new boat at the show. PHB3 is going to debut Psionic, and if they make a pattern of it, they're probably putting their new dogs at the front of the parade again. By making monk Psionic, they've really opened up their meaning of it, and so we can expect just about anything in that category.
What is the pure meaning of a templar? History is changed to suit those who write it, ever seen a japanese history book? You won't find the attack on pearl harbor in one, instead you'll find that the US involvement in WWII starts with the US victory of Midway making US look like the aggressors attacking Japan without cause. So once you take into account how much history gets changed what is the pure meaning of what a templar is? Well other than perhaps a murderer using the name of a religion as justification for his crimes, thats the pure meaning as I see it, does that make a good heroic class idea to you?
I don't apply the word Templar to mean 'murderer using the name of a religion as justification for his crimes'. I apply the meaning of Templar as stated in the English Dictionary. By that definition I think the name is fine as a good heroic class idea.
I don't apply the word Templar to mean 'murderer using the name of a religion as justification for his crimes'. I apply the meaning of Templar as stated in the English Dictionary. By that definition I think the name is fine as a good heroic class idea.
My point is that that definition is inaccurate, twisted by the European writers to fit a much more "good" image. Look up Jihadist in a Muslim dictionary it reads something like "One who crusades for the principals of god" and by that definition Jihadist would make a good divine class name as well, but do you think WotC would ever consider something like that?
My point is that that definition is inaccurate, twisted by the European writers to fit a much more "good" image. Look up Jihadist in a Muslim dictionary it reads something like "One who crusades for the principals of god" and by that definition Jihadist would make a good divine class name as well, but do you think WotC would ever consider something like that?
Actually WotC made a card game called Jihad and changed it to Vampire: The Eternal Struggle because people didn't know the card game was about vampires. So not only did WotC consider something like that, they did it.
Actually WotC made a card game called Jihad and changed it to Vampire: The Eternal Struggle because people didn't know the card game was about vampires. So not only did WotC consider something like that, they did it.
A card game is one thing, and you realize that there are probably political reasons they changed it as well. But they wouldn't make a PHB class by the name and you and I both know that.
A card game is one thing, and you realize that there are probably political reasons they changed it as well. But they wouldn't make a PHB class by the name and you and I both know that.
Well not to keep belaboring; But I feel that an entire game called Jihad will stand out a little more than a class that could be buried in some book that people who don't play might not see.
A card game is one thing, and you realize that there are probably political reasons they changed it as well. But they wouldn't make a PHB class by the name and you and I both know that.
The name was changed because it had no brand identity to it.
There was some backlash, but it was more of a concern that the naming was a bit racist. The rest of the backlash was because it was, well, a game where vampires murder people for their blood. Keep in mind the work "jihad" was still (and I would contest that even today still is) a pretty obscure word.
Templar, for the most part, elicits images of knights.
They're not exactly naming a class "rapemachine".
I would like to point out that nearly all pictures of a divine character (excepting those of invokers) include a clearly visible holy symbol. None of the runes on that big mace match any holy symbol. Now yes it is slightly possible that like the invoker this is another class that doesn't use holy symbols but I highly doubt this myself. You could have a primal heavy armored class sure, its a stretch but I think the concept of the avenger is a stretch just as much (a divine character that wears cloth armor, has no strength, and swings really big weapons, come on what archetype does that even come close to matching?). It could easily be a 4e version of the psionic warrior as well, wearing heavy armor and channeling telekinetic energies into his weapon attacks. Its very hard to be certain what the minotaur is until we know the PH3 class list, it could be anything.
You're assuming that a Templar class would even use Holy Symbols. If they don't use any sort of non-weapon attacks, they don't need an implement.
And like I said before, I really doubt it's a typo in the ECG. A typo like that would have had to last for like, a year, and I just can't believe that. Not to mention that Avengers don't really fit the quote, either. Templars would.
And the Avenger was called the templar, but the archtype eventually became that of an assassin, so they changed the name. The Crusader archtype (An actual Templar) is still yet to be filled.
The Crusader archtype (An actual Templar) is still yet to be filled.
Because the paladin is what? Give me a big description of what you think a Templar should be and tell me how it is different from the Paladin?
Because the paladin is what? Give me a big description of what you think a Templar should be and tell me how it is different from the Paladin?
The Paladin is the protector. The guy who stops all the baddies from burning down the church.
The Templar is the crusader. The guy who leads a bunch of other crusaders to go burn down the baddy's church! The guy who says "SCREW YOU AND YOUR CHAOTIC EVIL GOD, YOU NEED TO WORSHIP MINE!" *smack*.
The Paladin is the protector. The guy who stops all the baddies from burning down the church.
The Templar is the crusader. The guy who leads a bunch of other crusaders to go burn down the baddy's church! The guy who says "SCREW YOU AND YOUR CHAOTIC EVIL GOD, YOU NEED TO WORSHIP MINE!" *smack*.
I don't think that's quite a "big" enough description.
We all know that a Defender defends mostly and a Stiker strikes mostly; so yes, there would be that difference, strikers in their nature are more agressive than a defender.
But I don't think that taking a class and giving it a new role is a very good way to make a new interesting class.
I'm hoping that if there is a class called templar, it's not just something that can be explained by saying "Avenger in platemail" or "more agressive Paladin"
Someone elrlier in this thread made a good description, that combined elements of the old-school Blackguard and the 4E paladin, and slid it off to the side slightly to become it's own thing.
I don't think that's quite a "big" enough description.
We all know that a Defender defends mostly and a Stiker strikes mostly; so yes, there would be that difference, strikers in their nature are more agressive than a defender.
But I don't think that taking a class and giving it a new role is a very good way to make a new interesting class.
I'm hoping that if there is a class called templar, it's not just something that can be explained by saying "Avenger in platemail" or "more agressive Paladin"
I already talked about that; You can look at the wizard and the sorcerer, or the cleric and the invoker. WotC is clearly skilled at differentiating archtypes. I expect that they can easily seperate the Templar from "angry paladin" and "plate avenger".
Hell, if you had never heard of the Warlord, you might be like:
"Dude, I hope they do better than 'I'm a fighter with tactics'."
So yeah, I think it would be a lot more than an angry paladin. I'm not the most eloquent in describing archtypes, clearly, so don't take my attempt as the best possible.
Like the invoker is a "more blastery cleric"?
Someone elrlier in this thread made a good description, that combined elements of the old-school Blackguard and the 4E paladin, and slid it off to the side slightly to become it's own thing.
Agreed. In summation, other things that could be argued against in the same way:
- Invoker is a more blastery cleric
- Sorcerer is a less book-ish more boom-boom Wizard
- Warlord is a "hey guys, maybe keep fighting like this" Fighter
- Warden is a less angry Barbarian
- Ranger (2 weapon) is a more mobile, more pewpew Fighter
And all of those are so much more. I bet the Templar will be too.
Change the word "templar" to "avenger" and you have a complete listing of all the current divine classes. The argument on page one that Avengers wouldn't and/or shouldn't have made the list doesn't hold up, particularly if one has any understanding of the Church of the Silver Flame. This section is discussing the Church's hierarchy, of which Avengers would most certainly be a part.
I'm sure there are more great divine classes in the pipeline, but this is certainly not evidence of such. Only wishful thinking suggests otherwise. Maybe I'll bring it up over on the Eberron boards and get confirmation that this is an error from Hellcow (aka Keith Baker) himself.
And like I said before, I really doubt it's a typo in the ECG. A typo like that would have had to last for like, a year, and I just can't believe that. Not to mention that Avengers don't really fit the quote, either. Templars would.
And the Invoker fits the quote even less than the Avenger. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that sort of typo can slip through. Especially when the developers get used to hearing the titles used interchangeably through out the development cycle. They have made far more blatant mistakes. Why is the Invoker listed, when they have almost zero ties to the church? Why does it say "other divine classes" if Avenger is purposely not included? It is a divine class. Why is some class from a book not yet released listed, but only one, when we're expecting the book will probably contain two classes? Is Templar going to be the only PHB3 Divine class now?
It isn't my feelings that there couldn't be such a class. The name could even get rehashed, and maybe they can think of enough unique material to make said class stand alone. Maybe some creative play on the old "Smite Thing That Is Different Than Me" abilities from past editions. I'm all for the Heavy-Armor love (which a book full of monks and primals and brain blasters is going to need to offer some sort of balance), and I'd adore seeing such a class. But an off-hand fluff remark in a book written before PHB2 had even been finished, let alone PHB3, doesn't offer a wisp of hope towards that ideal.
This has been addressed, but I'm going to reiterate: We have been flat out told that "Templar" was the working name for the Avenger class. This list from the ECG features an artifact left over from those times, and nothing more.
Change the word "templar" to "avenger" and you have a complete listing of all the current divine classes. The argument on page one that Avengers wouldn't and/or shouldn't have made the list doesn't hold up, particularly if one has any understanding of the Church of the Silver Flame. This section is discussing the Church's hierarchy, of which Avengers would most certainly be a part.
I'm sure there are more great divine classes in the pipeline, but this is certainly not evidence of such. Only wishful thinking suggests otherwise. Maybe I'll bring it up over on the Eberron boards and get confirmation that this is an error from Hellcow (aka Keith Baker) himself.
Okay, maybe it's not called "the templar"; that doesn't mean there isn't a crusader class. That's only one of the many points I've made, and it is certainly not necessary. And it would be a typo that lasted for a LONG time. Like, a year. They said that they changed the name and the archtype very early on, so I doubt that part of the ECG was even typed up by then.
And Avengers wouldn't be a part of the church's hierarchy. I read up on it; it's a lawful good church. Avengers are the Assassin archtype. That was exactly the point I was making.
And the Invoker fits the quote even less than the Avenger. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that sort of typo can slip through. Especially when the developers get used to hearing the titles used interchangeably through out the development cycle. They have made far more blatant mistakes. Why is the Invoker listed, when they have almost zero ties to the church? Why does it say "other divine classes" if Avenger is purposely not included? It is a divine class. Why is some class from a book not yet released listed, but only one, when we're expecting the book will probably contain two classes? Is Templar going to be the only PHB3 Divine class now?
It isn't my feelings that there couldn't be such a class. The name could even get rehashed, and maybe they can think of enough unique material to make said class stand alone. Maybe some creative play on the old "Smite Thing That Is Different Than Me" abilities from past editions. I'm all for the Heavy-Armor love (which a book full of monks and primals and brain blasters is going to need to offer some sort of balance), and I'd adore seeing such a class. But an off-hand fluff remark in a book written before PHB2 had even been finished, let alone PHB3, doesn't offer a wisp of hope towards that ideal.
Nowhere in the Invoker description does it say anything about them not fitting with the church. It says it is somewhat of a 'lost art', but that hardly means forbidden, like the Avenger's description implies.
Other Divine classes might mean ones they haven't designed yet at all. They may come up with a new divine archtype that they want to use later, and that "other divine classes" statement will fit.
The second Divine class in the PHB3 might not fit either, like the Avenger.
And also, why would they bother with those parentheses and that list of classes if they're just going to list all of them? They could have just said "particularly divine classes". Sure, that's not definite proof. But it makes more sense if you look at the Templar not as an avenger fragment, but as a new class.
And the Invoker fits the quote even less than the Avenger. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that sort of typo can slip through. Especially when the developers get used to hearing the titles used interchangeably through out the development cycle. They have made far more blatant mistakes. Why is the Invoker listed, when they have almost zero ties to the church? Why does it say "other divine classes" if Avenger is purposely not included? It is a divine class. Why is some class from a book not yet released listed, but only one, when we're expecting the book will probably contain two classes? Is Templar going to be the only PHB3 Divine class now?
It isn't my feelings that there couldn't be such a class. The name could even get rehashed, and maybe they can think of enough unique material to make said class stand alone. Maybe some creative play on the old "Smite Thing That Is Different Than Me" abilities from past editions. I'm all for the Heavy-Armor love (which a book full of monks and primals and brain blasters is going to need to offer some sort of balance), and I'd adore seeing such a class. But an off-hand fluff remark in a book written before PHB2 had even been finished, let alone PHB3, doesn't offer a wisp of hope towards that ideal.
QFT
I'm certain that this "templar" business simply slipped past Keith, James and friends. Suggesting that Avenger wouldn't fit in that list is just silly, and it shows a failure to understand how the word "ordained" is being used. The Avenger fits the Silver Flame templar (not a reference to the class-this is what they call all the members of their crusading orders) extremely well. As the the ECG says, and as machmoth said above, ordained templars can be members of any classes.
The "ordination" that the ECG speaks of is the Church's ordination of said Minister, Templar or Friar. The reference in no way relates to the mechanics of classes, but is a feature of Eberron's/CotSF's fluff. The CotSF ordains it's priests/templars/etc... to serve in this role. These clergy can be of any class, and often are of a wide variety of classes in Eberron.
Hell, in Eberron, no one's even sure that the gods truly exist. The Silver Flame obviously does, since one can literally pay it a visit, but the same isn't true of the "gods" of Eberron. In Eberron, it's commonly believed that the caster's faith grants him the ability to cast spells, rather than a god/divine being doing so.
I've veered a little off topic, perhaps, but the point is that the Avenger fits perfectly on that list, and that the earlier argument to the contrary was flawed. Again, I think wishful thinking is at work.;)
And Avengers wouldn't be a part of the church's hierarchy. I read up on it; it's a lawful good church. Avengers are the Assassin archtype. That was exactly the point I was making.
And at this point this sentence shows a complete and utter lack of Eberron knowledge, and further proves the point that it's a typo.
1) Alignment has always been a much "greyer" area in Eberron
2) The Church of the Silver Flame would UNDOUBTEDLY have assassins in it's ranks. This is a Church that's CORE PRINCIPLES are the EXTERMINATION OF EVIL. I could post the tiered priorities of WHAT TO EXTERMINATE FIRST as bequeathed by the Church. This is CORE doctrine to the Silver Flame.
Allow me to quote "Faiths of Eberron"
Not only does the Church prioritize evil, it accepts the notion that sometimes a lesser evil can serve to fight a greater.
The point that those of us knowledgeable in Eberron are trying to make is, with an understanding of the Church of Silver Flame you can see how easily it is that Templar got subbed as a typo for Avengers. For goodness sake, the main paragon path for the Silver Flame is called an Exorcist. That sounds like something an Avenger would want to be.
QFT
I'm certain that this "templar" business simply slipped past Keith, James and friends. Suggesting that Avenger wouldn't fit in that list is just silly, and it shows a failure to understand how the word "ordained" is being used. The Avenger fits the Silver Flame templar (not a reference to the class-this is what they call all the members of their crusading orders) extremely well. As the the ECG says, and as machmoth said above, ordained templars can be members of any classes.
The "ordination" that the ECG speaks of is the Church's ordination of said Minister, Templar or Friar. The reference in no way relates to the mechanics of classes, but is a feature of Eberron's/CotSF's fluff. The CotSF ordains it's priests/templars/etc... to serve in this role. These clergy can be of any class, and often are of a wide variety of classes in Eberron.
Hell, in Eberron, no one's even sure that the gods truly exist. The Silver Flame obviously does, since one can literally pay it a visit, but the same isn't true of the "gods" of Eberron. In Eberron, it's commonly believed that the caster's faith grants him the ability to cast spells, rather than a god/divine being doing so.
I've veered a little off topic, perhaps, but the point is that the Avenger fits perfectly on that list, and that the earlier argument to the contrary was flawed. Again, I think wishful thinking is at work.;)
Even if all of this was completely sound and undebatable, what about all the other clues?
And nonetheless, as I said, Avengers are not crusaders. They are assassins. In the traditional Lawful Good sense, they wouldn't be condoned by the Church at all! Invokers, on the other hand, certainly would.
I understand what they mean by "ordained". But I really doubt they would ordain an Avenger.
And one more time, for good measure:
Even if all of this was completely sound and undebatable, what about all the other clues?
Okay, maybe it's not called "the templar"; that doesn't mean there isn't a crusader class. That's only one of the many points I've made, and it is certainly not necessary.
I agree there very well could be another class in the pipeline. I'm sure there is; but this isn't proof of such, in my opinion.
And it would be a typo that lasted for a LONG time. Like, a year. They said that they changed the name and the archtype very early on, so I doubt that part of the ECG was even typed up by then.
They've been working on this book a long, long time. Keith has been talking about his intentions for the section concerning the Church of the Silver Flame for an extremely long time. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he himself wrote that section, and that it was one of the first that put into writing.
It would be very easy for a single incorrect word to make its way into print. Especially is this the case with a the word templar in a paragraph discussing the ordained clergy of the CotSF. The templars are the most numerous of these ordained servants. The word seems perfectly at home in the paragraph. I'm pretty **** retentive, and have done a little editing in the past, and I think I'd have missed this. In this case, familiarity with the setting actually makes it all the easier to miss the misprint.
And Avengers wouldn't be a part of the church's hierarchy. I read up on it; it's a lawful good church. Avengers are the Assassin archtype. That was exactly the point I was making.
You need to read up a little more, I think. ;) Alignment means very little in Eberron. This "Lawful Good" church has commited some of the worst atrocities in the history of the setting. They are definitely not above using "divine assassins" in any case, as the templars of the Church fight supernatural evils. Their foes are demons, devils and the like, not the wicked-hearted shopkeeper who's always swindling his customers.
I agree there very well could be another class in the pipeline. I'm sure there is; but this isn't proof of such, in my opinion.
I have more evidence. Go look at it. There's still enough to indicate that one of those divine classes in the PHB3 is a crusader, at least moreso than there is for any other divine archtype. We know there will be Divine classes, probably 2. If the Templar isn't one of them, then what the hell is?
They've been working on this book a long, long time. Keith has been talking about his intentions for the section concerning the Church of the Silver Flame for an extremely long time. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he himself wrote that section, and that it was one of the first that put into writing.
It would be very easy for a single incorrect word to make its way into print. Especially is this the case with a the word templar in a paragraph discussing the ordained clergy of the CotSF. The templars are the most numerous of these ordained servants. The word seems perfectly at home in the paragraph. I'm pretty **** retentive, and have done a little editing in the past, and I think I'd have missed this. In this case, familiarity with the setting actually makes it all the easier to miss the misprint.
Well, if it meant Avenger, then why even have the list? Why not just "Particularly Divine classes"? It doesn't make sense.
And nonetheless, as I said, Avengers are not crusaders. They are assassins. In the traditional Lawful Good sense, they wouldn't be condoned by the Church at all! Invokers, on the other hand, certainly would.
I understand what they mean by "ordained". But I really doubt they would ordain an Avenger.
I understand what they mean by "ordained". But I really doubt they would ordain an Avenger.
That's your interpretation of the class. I'm not saying it doesn't fit what the PH2 says. I think the divine assassin is exactly what they were going for when they created the class. That said, the avenger is not an evil or non-good class, and the CotSF would most definitely ordain said character. The first thing I thought of when I saw the class was the CotSF. I immediately decided an ordained shifter priest who is an Avenger of the Silver Flame would be an amazing PC, due to the history of that race and organization in Eberron.
The CotSF would most definitely ordain Avengers. I've even discussed this very character with the setting's creator, and he noticed nothing out of sorts or unusual about it. The Avenger isn't necessarily any less "LG" than the paladin. The Avenger simply accomplishes his mission in a different fashion. The CotSF actually features a secret organization called the Argentum that's devoted to robbery of weapons, artifacts and the like. The members of the Argentum will most certainly kill if necessary. That gives you an idea of how this "LG" church operates.
And one more time, for good measure:
Even if all of this was completely sound and undebatable, what about all the other clues?
I haven't really seen many other weighty clues. Obviously, I'm not an author working on the PH3, so I can't say for certain what is or isn't going to happen. It's just my strong opinion that a misprint, mixed with a little wishful thinking, has led to all this speculation.
I actually hope you're right. The Avenger hasn't proven to be the class I'd hoped it would be, and I'd love to see the type of "Templar" class we've talked about in this thread.
I haven't really seen many other weighty clues. Obviously, I'm not an author working on the PH3, so I can't say for certain what is or isn't going to happen. It's just my strong opinion that a misprint, mixed with a little wishful thinking, has led to all this speculation.
I actually hope you're right. The Avenger hasn't proven to be the class I'd hoped it would be, and I'd love to see the type of "Templar" class we've talked about in this thread.
I know it's not solid, definite proof. It may not even be the most weighty. But it's the most that anyone's got for a Divine class in the PHB3. That counts for something, I'd say.
The CotSF would most definitely ordain Avengers. I've even discussed this very character with the setting's creator, and he noticed nothing out of sorts or unusual about it. The Avenger isn't necessarily any less "LG" than the paladin. The Avenger simply accomplishes his mission in a different fashion. The CotSF actually has an entire secret organization called the Argentum that's devoted to robbery of weapons, artifacts and the like. The members of the Argentum will most certainly kill if necessary. That gives you an idea of how this "LG" church operates.
Let's not even talk about some of their Cardinals!
Simply put, any Eberron fan will immediately nod their head in agreement and say "of course the CotSF would ordaine Avengers!". Most Templars of the SF are beings to be feared. During the Lycan Purge, non-disease bearing lycans were being exterminated (aka shifters, also this was when Lycans spread a disease) due to the Church's belief of "just in case".
I know it's not solid, definite proof. It may not even be the most weighty. But it's the most that anyone's got for a Divine class in the PHB3. That counts for something, I'd say.
I'm tempted to believe that one of the formerly "Ki" classes turned Divine. I want to say Shugenja, but that just seems like it'd be an "elemental" class.
I'm going to yield the discussion of the Templar quote, simply because I don't know that much about Eberron. You may be right. I don't think so, but I also am starting to tell that I might not be as well informed as I would like to be (When I saw the Avenger, I hadn't even heard of the Church of the Silver Flame >_>).
Well, the fact that you're reading the ECG is a good sign in my mind. I hope you love it and decide that you simply have to have more. Eberron's my favorite setting, so I'm naturally excited any time someone new joins the ranks, so to speak.
If you're interested in learning more about the setting and this organization, this article would be a good place to start. The Dragonshards series are excellent, and if I recall correctly most (if not all) were written by Keith Baker himself.
You should drop by the Eberron forums, sometime. The crowd over there is great, and we're seeing a lot of new names with Eberron's 4E release.
I know it's not solid, definite proof. It may not even be the most weighty. But it's the most that anyone's got for a Divine class in the PHB3. That counts for something, I'd say.
I hope you're right. I want another divine striker. The Avenger's concept is awesome, but it's mechanics simply aren't to my liking. Until we get something different, I'd be more likely to play a religious Ranger or Rogue to fill the role.
Well, the fact that you're reading the ECG is a good sign in my mind. I hope you love it and decide that you simply have to have more. Eberron's my favorite setting, so I'm naturally excited any time someone new joins the ranks, so to speak.
If you're interested in learning more about the setting and this organization, this article would be a good place to start. The Dragonshards series are excellent, and if I recall correctly most (if not all) were written by Keith Baker himself.
You should drop by the Eberron forums, sometime. The crowd over there is great, and we're seeing a lot of new names with Eberron's 4E release.
I wish they made a compendium of all those Dragonshards. Such a good series.
Well, the fact that you're reading the ECG is a good sign in my mind. I hope you love it and decide that you simply have to have more. Eberron's my favorite setting, so I'm naturally excited any time someone new joins the ranks, so to speak.
Well, I have the EPG, but I haven't read it yet. I still need to get a copy of the ECG; the quote I found from somewhere else on this site, and the information on the church I got was purely through a short Eberron wiki (that may or may not be entirely accurate).
I wish they made a compendium of all those Dragonshards. Such a good series.
Indeed. I have this archive page saved in a "DnD Tools" folder in my favorites. I'd definitely pay money to have them hardbound and in hand.
The Expeditionary Dispatches that Keith wrote were likewise awesome. The series concerning Valenar is something I've gone back to recently, since I'll finally be playing a Tairnadal Ranger this time around.
Well, I have the EPG, but I haven't read it yet. I still need to get a copy of the ECG; the quote I found from somewhere else on this site, and the information on the church I got was purely through a short Eberron wiki (that may or may not be entirely accurate).
I see. Well, I hope you really dig Eberron once you get a chance to read more. It's a great setting with a very different vibe than most other DnD settings. The alignment issue I raised earlier is just one example. Eberron feels very "real", in that way.