Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 defcon_1 Mar 24, 2009 12:17:39	As many of us who were following the development of PHII know... way-back-when Mike Mearls gave the initial letter of the eight classes that were appearing in the second Player's Handbook. One of these was the letter 'T'. At the time, there were a number of different ideas of what the name of the class might be, with ideas like Theurge, Thaumaturge, Totemist etc. At some point in the class's development, however, the name of the class got changed from a 'T' to an 'A' (as we now know that the class whose name got switched is currently known as the Avenger). So this begs the question, what was the original name of the class going to be, and why did the name get changed? My own supposition on this idea is thus: Of the Divine class names starting with the letter 'T' that got bandied about on the message boards... the two most popular ones were 'Theurge' and 'Templar'. Now knowing that this was a Divine Striker class (as well as possibly having the beginnings of flavor that the Avenger currently has)... I think most of us would agree that of those two names, 'Templar' would probably fit more than 'Theurge' would. 'Theurge' was usually used by people as the possible Divine Controller class name. If by some chance this was true, and 'Templar' was the working name of the Divine Striker class, why might it have been changed? On the one hand, based on how the fluff of the Avenger has played itself out... perhaps 'Templar' was not as descriptive as they might've liked (which I can certainly understand). But perhaps there was another reason? One that I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before. And that is that 'Templar' is one of the divine class names in the Dark Sun setting. What if the original name for the PHII class was going to be 'Templar'... but then at some period of time after that it was determined that Dark Sun would be the 2010 campaign setting, and that the mechanics and fluff that was being created for the PHII 'Templar' class was not matching up with the traditional basis of the Dark Sun 'Templar' class? Knowing full well that there was probably going to be at least one new class in the campaign setting (as there was in the FR and will be in Eberron)... they figured out that the "new" class concepts in the old Dark Sun Campaign Setting were the Divine Templar, and the Arcane "Preserver" and "Defiler" classes. And if they wanted to avoid adding two more classes to the power source that already has more classes than any other (Arcane), the new class to be added to the Dark Sun Player's Guide should probably be 'Templar'. This would be great, because it'd be the first new class in a campaign setting player's guide that would use a different power source. To make a long story short (too late!), I wonder if my supposition bears any weight and is a logical possibility as to the reason for the change of the original class name letter that Mearls mentioned last year.
#2 mplindustries Mar 24, 2009 12:31:11	If it was ever called "Templar" in the first place: Templar invokes images of, well, obviously, the Knights Templar. Knights wear heavy armor. Knights also invoke images of Paladins. It was likely changed because: 1) Templar and Paladin are too similar in name and concept, and only role would separate them, and/or... 2) At some point in development they removed heavy armor and thought Templar was no longer appropriate.
#3 doctorhook Mar 24, 2009 13:39:06	A lot of us actually though that "T" would be "Theurge", and represent what we now call the Invoker, while "I" would be "Inquisitor", and represent what we now call the Avenger. At the time, we disagreed with the name "Invoker" because it was too similar to "Evocation", the name for Primal powers. We rejected "Avenger" because of how similar it was to "Angelic Avenger", the name of a Paragon Path in PH1. Look at how far we've come!
#4 thescalesoffate Mar 24, 2009 21:12:47	So in other words, don't believe what you hear on teh intarwebz. =D
#5 doctorhook Mar 25, 2009 0:01:51	So in other words, don't believe what you hear on teh intarwebz. =D lol It's always good advice. :P
#6 Xeviat-DM Mar 25, 2009 4:12:48	Templar also comes with some nasty historic baggage, what with the Crusades and all that. Aside from that, I too feel that Templar and Paladin are too close (back in 3E, I made a paladin alt called "Templar" for my games and even posted it up here, you could take domains and remake the standard Paladin quite easily).
#7 Steely_Dan Mar 25, 2009 5:59:03	And that is that 'Templar' is one of the divine class names in the Dark Sun setting. What if the original name for the PHII class was going to be 'Templar'... but then at some period of time after that it was determined that Dark Sun would be the 2010 campaign setting, and that the mechanics and fluff that was being created for the PHII 'Templar' class was not matching up with the traditional basis of the Dark Sun 'Templar' class? Yeah, maybe the Templar will be the class featured in a Player's Guide to Dark Sun. I also thought that the W class might be Witch. I also still think it might have been cool to call the 4th Ed Martial Ranger, Hunter, and call the Primal Warden, Ranger.
#8 aluman Mar 25, 2009 20:29:11	T could have = Theurge an early name for the Invoker too.
#9 nowiwantmydmg Mar 25, 2009 21:27:22	I thought it was Totemist at first.
#10 gregt_314 Mar 25, 2009 21:29:13	Templar just doesn't make sense in a non-Earth setting. The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon were a specific politico-religious organisation; it's not appropriate to use them as a class name, regardless of whether there's precedent for it in previous editions. It's like making a character class called "Roundhead" or "ANZAC" devoid of the social context that produced those terms. Paladin, by contrast, although popularised by the knights of Charlemagne's court, has come to be accepted as a descriptor of chivalrous heroes generally. Your world might have a difficult time of justifying where the word comes from unless it too once had a seat of power built on the Palatine Hill, but that's equally true of any other number of linguistic quirks so it's best just to handwave language generally.
#11 darkless_one Mar 25, 2009 22:00:28	Templar just doesn't make sense in a non-Earth setting. The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon were a specific politico-religious organisation; it's not appropriate to use them as a class name, regardless of whether there's precedent for it in previous editions. It's like making a character class called "Roundhead" or "ANZAC" devoid of the social context that produced those terms. Paladin, by contrast, although popularised by the knights of Charlemagne's court, has come to be accepted as a descriptor of chivalrous heroes generally. Your world might have a difficult time of justifying where the word comes from unless it too once had a seat of power built on the Palatine Hill, but that's equally true of any other number of linguistic quirks so it's best just to handwave language generally. Templar has also been widely accepted as a euphemism for Zealots of any type. So... yeah.
#12 gregt_314 Mar 25, 2009 22:14:31	Templar has also been widely accepted as a euphemism for Zealots of any type. So... yeah. I may be wrong, but I'm generally pretty up on my linguistics and I'm not aware of this "wide usage". I'd be grateful if you were able to direct me to any dictionary entries or suchlike that support this. (Sorry to everyone else as I temporarily drag things off-topic. Possibly you could respond in a PM, Darkless?)
#13 kletian999 Mar 25, 2009 22:45:15	Every time I've seen Templar used in fantasy it was for aggressive holy warriors, Magic cards (albiet many recent ones are defensive), Final Fantasy Tactics (the Magic Sword using knights of the Chruch, though the Advance version got Heavy armor) and online (Samurai NPCs), the movie "The Minion" with Christopher Walkin made them secret hunters of the titular demon.
#14 kiyosa Mar 25, 2009 23:05:52	Templar could well have been dropped for historical baggage reasons, particularly to help divorce the class from a western European feeling. Druid and Paladin being the other major offenders in the predetermined imageladen name category. I'm guessing they also changed it because Avenger is more evocative of tough guy striker-ing and such. They do have to appeal to those teen males and all- you want bad-a action hero names, not some academic nomenclature.
#15 Tharag_Bocc Mar 25, 2009 23:09:58	I may be wrong, but I'm generally pretty up on my linguistics and I'm not aware of this "wide usage". I'd be grateful if you were able to direct me to any dictionary entries or suchlike that support this. (Sorry to everyone else as I temporarily drag things off-topic. Possibly you could respond in a PM, Darkless?) Knight Templar at tvtropes.org
#16 gregt_314 Mar 25, 2009 23:14:57	Knight Templar at tvtropes.org TVTropes is cheating. :-) The same logic justifies naming a character class "The Spock". It would have had paladins called "Charlemagnes" and wizards called "Merlins". There's a difference between a general descriptor and the most well-known exemplar of the descriptor.
#17 darkless_one Mar 26, 2009 0:13:18	TVTropes is cheating. :-) The same logic justifies naming a character class "The Spock". It would have had paladins called "Charlemagnes" and wizards called "Merlins". There's a difference between a general descriptor and the most well-known exemplar of the descriptor. Yes, there is. However in many games, movies and shows the word Templar has been used completely out of context. In the exact same way the TV Tropes uses it. :3
#18 gregt_314 Mar 26, 2009 0:28:46	Yes, there is. However in many games, movies and shows the word Templar has been used completely out of context. In the exact same way the TV Tropes uses it. :3 Magic: The Gathering has no excuse, but in the majority of videogame examples cited it's either a translation artefact caused by an attempt to carry across a Japanese concept that translates awkwardly into English, or it's Japanese writers pillaging a concept from an "exotic" culture without a real understanding of its origin. There was a similar situation in the West in the 80s where "karate" and "kung fu" became generic terms for any martial art. The widespread misuse doesn't justify creating an aikido-based class and calling it "karate master"; nor does the previous misuse of templar in this fashion justify it in a 4E context. I accept there'll be a point at which the repeated misuse of templar does normalise it and make it an acceptable descriptor. My argument is we're not there yet, as evidenced by its lack of incorporation in the major dictionaries, and it's not somewhere we want to go. I offer as example the modern use of "Nazi" and "fascist" as interchangeable terms, with the associated dumbing down of public understanding of the real meaning of these quite separate concepts.
#19 darkless_one Mar 26, 2009 0:46:26	Magic: The Gathering has no excuse, but in the majority of videogame examples cited it's either a translation artefact caused by an attempt to carry across a Japanese concept that translates awkwardly into English, or it's Japanese writers pillaging a concept from an "exotic" culture without a real understanding of its origin. There was a similar situation in the West in the 80s where "karate" and "kung fu" became generic terms for any martial art. The widespread misuse doesn't justify creating an aikido-based class and calling it "karate master"; nor does the previous misuse of templar in this fashion justify it in a 4E context. I accept there'll be a point at which the repeated misuse of templar does normalise it and make it an acceptable descriptor. My argument is we're not there yet, as evidenced by its lack of incorporation in the major dictionaries, and it's not somewhere we want to go. I offer as example the modern use of "Nazi" and "fascist" as interchangeable terms, with the associated dumbing down of public understanding of the real meaning of these quite separate concepts. Actually I'm very very very sure that the word Nazi is associated far more with their treatment of the Jewish(among other) people than their style of government. I've never head anyone say "That damn Nazi" and mean "That damn Fascist".
#20 gregt_314 Mar 26, 2009 0:54:10	Actually I'm very very very sure that the word Nazi is associated far more with their treatment of the Jewish(among other) people than their style of government. I've never head anyone say "That damn Nazi" and mean "That damn Fascist". "Spelling Nazi", "Grammar Nazi", "My boss is such a Nazi about punctuality." Et cetera. Nazi (naht-zee): (3) Sometimes Offensive. (often lowercase) a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to control a specified activity, practice, etc.: a jazz nazi who disdains other forms of music; tobacco nazis trying to ban smoking. - www.dictionary.com I realise Dictionary.com is not the world's most prestigious dictionary but I think it's fair to cite it as an example of "widespread use". I also realise that that's not the definition of "fascist"; however, it's an identical misuse to the most common misuse of "fascist".
#21 darkless_one Mar 26, 2009 0:57:42	"Spelling Nazi", "Grammar Nazi", "My boss is such a Nazi about punctuality." Et cetera. Nazi (naht-zee): (3) Sometimes Offensive. (often lowercase) a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to control a specified activity, practice, etc.: a jazz nazi who disdains other forms of music; tobacco nazis trying to ban smoking. - www.dictionary.com I realise Dictionary.com is not the world's most prestigious dictionary but I think it's fair to cite it as an example of "widespread use". I also realise that that's not the definition of "fascist"; however, it's an identical misuse to the most common misuse of "fascist". Althoughs appear to be euphemism for being an *******, not for a governmental system. So in other words... you're wrong. Nazi is almost never used to indicate Fascism, which is a governmental philosophy.
#22 Steely_Dan Mar 26, 2009 4:03:26	Templar just doesn't make sense in a non-Earth setting. To you maybe, a lot of people had no problem when it was a class in 2nd Ed Dark Sun.
#23 kiyosa Mar 26, 2009 8:15:39	Trying to save the thread from Godwin's Law here (way to go GregT 314) I accept there'll be a point at which the repeated misuse of templar does normalise it and make it an acceptable descriptor. This is the main point, I think and I completely agree. After a word is misused enough, it develops a new semantic boundary and means something new. Paladin, Bard and Druid all refer to relatively specific historical orders or groups. However the terms have been used so frequently in video games, table-top games and other fantasy settings that they have been redefined as "warrior with some priestly/divine elements," "magical musician" and "nature themed priest." If you can find a class name that is evocative and avoids this process of slow and steady redefinition, so much the better. Ideally you'd find something which gets your point across and allows players some fluff flexibility. Barbarian, for instance, does this really well. Players readily accept a "barbarian" from a wide variety of cultural idioms: Mongolian themed mounted fighters, panther fur clad Aztec style warriors, naked Zulu-esque spear and shield users, Conan clones, viking based berserk guys, etc. I think WotC just decided that Avenger got the divine retribution aspect of the class across better and with more appeal than any other name (Templar or otherwise). Since it's a new class they really had to market it and avoid the "Ave Maria" problem: good guys can get boring and two-dimensional. The designers seem to have accomplished these goals quite handily.
#24 doctorhook Mar 26, 2009 15:44:31	I was going to rate this thread one star, but the stars are gone... What gives?
#25 vaalingrade_ashland_02 Mar 27, 2009 10:12:11	Paladin and Templar are way, way, way too close to one another for anyone not brainwashed by the 'LG ruiner of party unity' shtick that was tagged to the word Paladin for the past couple of DnDecades, which 4e managed to get out from under.
#26 defcon_1 Mar 27, 2009 12:16:52	Whether or not 'Templar' is a good name or not was kinda beside my point. I was trying to figure out what the original Divine Striker name was supposed to be before they chose to change it. I myself do not believe that the 'T' name was going to be Totemist or Theurge... because that means they went ahead and changed two class names after the fact (unless any of us believe that either of those names was meant to be the Divine Striker). And just by coincidence, they chose the second of the two new names to have the same starting letter as the original first class. That seems a bit implausible to me, that they would have screwed up that badly... because there was no way the WotC higher-ups would have let Mearls spill the beans on the class name initial letters if all the classes were that much in flux that they felt two of their classes had to be renamed at some point. Personally, I think it was only the Divine Striker name that got changed. So at some point after Mearls gave the eight initial letters, development in the Divine Striker went in a direction that took it away from a 'T' name, to what they eventually settled on (Avenger). And the question is... what was the original name, and what was the real reason it got switched? If it was 'Templar'... was it changed because it wasn't evocative enough for how the class was developing, or was it because they decided to save the name for use in the Dark Sun campaign setting? Or perhaps a little bit of both? Or the final option of course being that the original 'T' name was something completely different that we haven't thought of?