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The Elemental Power Source

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ausolion
Dec 09, 2008 15:37:38 What makes the elemental power source so much different from arcane that it has it's own name? Are they planning to have the powers depend on you location? Use more mundane elements like wood, air, earth, and water? Any news on this?
#2
Fedosu
Dec 09, 2008 15:53:14 One thought I had is that perhaps they might make it vaguely like divine, except that it relates to the worship of primordials rather than gods. This allows them to avoid the fact that many many arcane powers are elementally affiliated.
#3
ausolion
Dec 09, 2008 16:10:41
One thought I had is that perhaps they might make it vaguely like divine, except that it relates to the worship of primordials rather than gods. This allows them to avoid the fact that many many arcane powers are elementally affiliated.

I like that idea. That tickles my brain.:P
#4
sigil_beguiler
Dec 09, 2008 16:54:12 [rant]I have to admit this is one reason why I wish Arcane magic would abandon use of Elements in their spells all-together. Lets see Arcane magic that just uses arcane energy and such. [/rant]

It would be neat to have locational bonuses but... That be hard to balance. I suspect too it could have some links to Primordials. I could also see mechanics wise it being one that combines elements together to get unique side-bonuses.
#5
ausolion
Dec 09, 2008 17:02:43
It would be neat to have locational bonuses but... That be hard to balance.

Well, certain powers could be stronger in a given condition. So most powers are usable anywhere, but have bonuses in certain conditions.

Example: Say a power creates a sand storm that does 1d8 damage to creatures in a burst and grants concealment. If you are in an area like a desert, then the power does more damage, may grant total concealment, and/or slow creatures in the zone.
#6
Nautilus
Dec 09, 2008 19:07:00 An old theme in D&D is that elemental forces are difficult to deal with. They're reluctant, headstrong and liable to turn on anyone without the tenacity to control them. I think a similar theme will show up in the 4e Elemental source; that of compelling dangerous entities to do your will.

For example, an elementalist may have powers that require him to choose each turn between letting an elemental go and trying to control it for one more round - with the DC getting higher each time. Also, remember that demons are part of the elemental plane now. Some elemental classes may be able to summon and control demons, which are the perennial risky servant.

I also think the elemental power source may explore the concept of elemental blending more than sources like arcane do.
#7
Tygaran
Dec 09, 2008 19:07:35
[rant]I have to admit this is one reason why I wish Arcane magic would abandon use of Elements in their spells all-together. Lets see Arcane magic that just uses arcane energy and such. [/rant]

I somewhat agree on this, but more in the lines of the whole Element = Energy Type concept (and Fire being both). It seems Arcane spellcasters have always be able to produce energy types in one form or another, but only in some traditions and literature have they be directly associated with the elements. An Element can sometimes include more than just and affinity to certain forms of energy. It can also have associations with other things. Such as Fire and Motion, Earth and Stability/Hardness, Water and Life/Healing, etc.

The 'problem' in game terms is that damage has always been typed into energies and the arcanist were given spells which deal just about any kind of energy damage.

In Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed line of d20 products, he actually had two types of spells; those that did energy damage and those that did elemental damage. The later dealt air damage, earth damage, etc.

One possible characteristic of the Elemental Power Source might be that it is more about environmental effects rather than direct effects on a target; walls, zones, difficult terrain, and the like.

Anyway, I'm just rambling; but am certainly curious about how WotC handles the Elemental Power Source.
#8
Pyromantic
Dec 09, 2008 23:34:48 I suppose the elemental source is far enough in the future to have only the most preliminary stages of design even started, but my first thought would be to consider an over-arching theme for it. In the same way that primal has been said to be based around change, a driving philosophy behind elemental would give it a distinct feel when placed next to arcane. I'm sure there are a number of possibilities depending upon the particular philosophical model of elements you use, but I would suggest one strong contender is "opposition": the typical fire against water, earth against air concept.

There are a couple of ways I could envision this coming about. One way would be to have powers with effects that seem in opposition, such as damage/healing, push/pull and so on.

Another thought, and one that I think has some interesting potential, is having powers with the four keywords Earth, Air, Fire and Water, that each have effects upon powers with the "opposite" keyword. Essentially this would represent the universe rebalancing itself using opposing elements.

Imagine a controller class called the Channeler. It primarily uses wisdom for earth and water powers, and charisma for air and fire powers. A couple of example at-will powers might look something like this:

Blazing Strike - Channeler Attack 1
Pointing at your target, it suddenly erupts into flames.
At-Will - Elemental, Implement, Fire
Standard Action - Area burst 1 within 10 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Hit: d6 fire damage. If the target is in the burst's origin square, it takes additional damage equal to your Charisma modifier.
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, add one square to any push, pull or slide effect of any power you use with the Water keyword.

Water Ram - Channeler Attack 1
With a wave of your arm, a surge of water springs forth and smashes into your target.
At-Will - Elemental, Implement, Water
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude
Hit: d6 + Wisdom modifier damage, and you slide the target a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, all damage rolls you make for powers with the Fire keyword receive a power bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier.

That's the basic idea. I think you could do some interesting things with encounter and daily powers that use multiple elements and a variety of buffs. It would give you the opportunity to give concrete themes to each of the elements. Characters would be able to concentrate on certain effects, but would also be rewarded for using a balanced combination of powers.
#9
blowfish
Dec 10, 2008 11:24:31 At least one class should be demon themed as the abyss is part of the elemental chaos.
#10
Negflar2099
Dec 11, 2008 17:13:56 I know they probably aren't planning on this but if they are doing an Elemental power source than Shai'r from the Al-Qadim setting would be perfect in my opinion. Think about it. It already has the Primordial/Elemental connection, it works differently enough from a Wizard that you won't confuse the two and it has a history in D&D. It was even mentioned in some Dragon magazine article or something a while back (not as a class possibility but as an off hand comment). It could work.

My other idea was a summoning class that brings forth elemental beings, sort of like the Mage class in Everquest.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ausolion Dec 09, 2008 15:37:38	What makes the elemental power source so much different from arcane that it has it's own name? Are they planning to have the powers depend on you location? Use more mundane elements like wood, air, earth, and water? Any news on this?
#2 Fedosu Dec 09, 2008 15:53:14	One thought I had is that perhaps they might make it vaguely like divine, except that it relates to the worship of primordials rather than gods. This allows them to avoid the fact that many many arcane powers are elementally affiliated.
#3 ausolion Dec 09, 2008 16:10:41	One thought I had is that perhaps they might make it vaguely like divine, except that it relates to the worship of primordials rather than gods. This allows them to avoid the fact that many many arcane powers are elementally affiliated. I like that idea. That tickles my brain.:P
#4 sigil_beguiler Dec 09, 2008 16:54:12	[rant]I have to admit this is one reason why I wish Arcane magic would abandon use of Elements in their spells all-together. Lets see Arcane magic that just uses arcane energy and such. [/rant] It would be neat to have locational bonuses but... That be hard to balance. I suspect too it could have some links to Primordials. I could also see mechanics wise it being one that combines elements together to get unique side-bonuses.
#5 ausolion Dec 09, 2008 17:02:43	It would be neat to have locational bonuses but... That be hard to balance. Well, certain powers could be stronger in a given condition. So most powers are usable anywhere, but have bonuses in certain conditions. Example: Say a power creates a sand storm that does 1d8 damage to creatures in a burst and grants concealment. If you are in an area like a desert, then the power does more damage, may grant total concealment, and/or slow creatures in the zone.
#6 Nautilus Dec 09, 2008 19:07:00	An old theme in D&D is that elemental forces are difficult to deal with. They're reluctant, headstrong and liable to turn on anyone without the tenacity to control them. I think a similar theme will show up in the 4e Elemental source; that of compelling dangerous entities to do your will. For example, an elementalist may have powers that require him to choose each turn between letting an elemental go and trying to control it for one more round - with the DC getting higher each time. Also, remember that demons are part of the elemental plane now. Some elemental classes may be able to summon and control demons, which are the perennial risky servant. I also think the elemental power source may explore the concept of elemental blending more than sources like arcane do.
#7 Tygaran Dec 09, 2008 19:07:35	[rant]I have to admit this is one reason why I wish Arcane magic would abandon use of Elements in their spells all-together. Lets see Arcane magic that just uses arcane energy and such. [/rant] I somewhat agree on this, but more in the lines of the whole Element = Energy Type concept (and Fire being both). It seems Arcane spellcasters have always be able to produce energy types in one form or another, but only in some traditions and literature have they be directly associated with the elements. An Element can sometimes include more than just and affinity to certain forms of energy. It can also have associations with other things. Such as Fire and Motion, Earth and Stability/Hardness, Water and Life/Healing, etc. The 'problem' in game terms is that damage has always been typed into energies and the arcanist were given spells which deal just about any kind of energy damage. In Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed line of d20 products, he actually had two types of spells; those that did energy damage and those that did elemental damage. The later dealt air damage, earth damage, etc. One possible characteristic of the Elemental Power Source might be that it is more about environmental effects rather than direct effects on a target; walls, zones, difficult terrain, and the like. Anyway, I'm just rambling; but am certainly curious about how WotC handles the Elemental Power Source.
#8 Pyromantic Dec 09, 2008 23:34:48	I suppose the elemental source is far enough in the future to have only the most preliminary stages of design even started, but my first thought would be to consider an over-arching theme for it. In the same way that primal has been said to be based around change, a driving philosophy behind elemental would give it a distinct feel when placed next to arcane. I'm sure there are a number of possibilities depending upon the particular philosophical model of elements you use, but I would suggest one strong contender is "opposition": the typical fire against water, earth against air concept. There are a couple of ways I could envision this coming about. One way would be to have powers with effects that seem in opposition, such as damage/healing, push/pull and so on. Another thought, and one that I think has some interesting potential, is having powers with the four keywords Earth, Air, Fire and Water, that each have effects upon powers with the "opposite" keyword. Essentially this would represent the universe rebalancing itself using opposing elements. Imagine a controller class called the Channeler. It primarily uses wisdom for earth and water powers, and charisma for air and fire powers. A couple of example at-will powers might look something like this: Blazing Strike - Channeler Attack 1 Pointing at your target, it suddenly erupts into flames. At-Will - Elemental, Implement, Fire Standard Action - Area burst 1 within 10 squares Target: Each creature in burst Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex Hit: d6 fire damage. If the target is in the burst's origin square, it takes additional damage equal to your Charisma modifier. Effect: Until the end of your next turn, add one square to any push, pull or slide effect of any power you use with the Water keyword. Water Ram - Channeler Attack 1 With a wave of your arm, a surge of water springs forth and smashes into your target. At-Will - Elemental, Implement, Water Standard Action - Ranged 10 Target: One creature Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude Hit: d6 + Wisdom modifier damage, and you slide the target a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier. Effect: Until the end of your next turn, all damage rolls you make for powers with the Fire keyword receive a power bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier. That's the basic idea. I think you could do some interesting things with encounter and daily powers that use multiple elements and a variety of buffs. It would give you the opportunity to give concrete themes to each of the elements. Characters would be able to concentrate on certain effects, but would also be rewarded for using a balanced combination of powers.
#9 blowfish Dec 10, 2008 11:24:31	At least one class should be demon themed as the abyss is part of the elemental chaos.
#10 Negflar2099 Dec 11, 2008 17:13:56	I know they probably aren't planning on this but if they are doing an Elemental power source than Shai'r from the Al-Qadim setting would be perfect in my opinion. Think about it. It already has the Primordial/Elemental connection, it works differently enough from a Wizard that you won't confuse the two and it has a history in D&D. It was even mentioned in some Dragon magazine article or something a while back (not as a class possibility but as an off hand comment). It could work. My other idea was a summoning class that brings forth elemental beings, sort of like the Mage class in Everquest.