Eladrin ability scores: Int +2; Dex +2 or Cha +2.
So finally, the Eladrin can be good at the classes that they should be good at, and gain an actual Cha mechanic to substantiate their 'enchanting' 'asthetic' racial flavor. Awesome.
• Societally, eldritch sages rise to prominence, tending toward Int-Cha Wizards (Enchanters).
• The eldritch knights tend toward Int-Dex Swordmages (Bladesingers?) as infantry and Int-Dex Wand Wizards as artillery. However as knights, perhaps all may use arcane mounts as cavalry.
• Their artists tend toward Cha-Int Cunning Bards, whose asthetics is a fusion of magic, fate, combat, beauty, opulence, elegance, and pleasure. These Bards preside over the sacred orgies that accompany Eladrin court convocations.
• By the way, the Eladrin criminal element tends toward Cha-Int Fey-Pact Warlocks. Eladrin culture views warlockry as reckless endangerment, sometimes treason, and declares it taboo. These Eladrin dissidents are competent and deadly, and may have little to lose.
Eladrin can finally be a meaningful arcane culture whose statistical tendencies (mechanics) lends truth to their reputation (flavor).
Eladrin culture prioritizes arcane scholastic values. They pressure their talented youth to enter prestegious wizard schools. By social status as experts and by personal persuasiveness, the eldritch sages among these schools tend to influence group decisions the most. Eladrin society can be (chaotically) egalitarian, where individuals respect the ancient customs of their courts but otherwise do as they please, and may or may not support the nobles of their court. The Eladrin government is a loose affiliation of courts, yet it survives by a defacto meritocracy where the most intelligent sages tend to guide society by popular support, especially in times of crisis.
The wizard realm of Harry Potter seems a pretty good rule-of-thumb to understand the Feywild of the Eladrin. Note the 'Hogwarts' of the Potter setting is a school for adolescents - under the adult supervision of teachers. There will also be institutes of higher learning where collaborations of sages advance the cutting-edge research to wield the Fey arcane energy.
Yes. ;) Also, for warlockry, I mean 'reckless endangerment' as opposed to 'reckless enda(g)germent'.
so it's a typo on the link that shows the cha bonus being +1?
Yes, other information the source listed has it as +2.
That said, Int/Cha was a great and rather obvious choice, seeing how much fey themed stuff is int/cha. A fey should benefit the most out of fey themed stuff.
That was always there to make up for them having two eggs in one NAD basket, it would seem balanced to remove that benefit from an Int/Cha race.
But then, Essentials doesn't seem concerned with balance.
Why do eladrin get their own thread?
Every race deserves their own thread to sort thru all the consequences of the racial ability score that the developers chose. It deeply structures the racial flavor and most-frequent classes.
That said, Int/Cha was a great and rather obvious choice, seeing how much fey themed stuff is int/cha. A fey should benefit the most out of fey themed stuff.
Int-Cha is by far the best possible choice for Eladrin abilities!
*sigh with relief*
However, by no means was Int;Cha,Dex a given. The designers could have easily made the Eladrin Dex;Int,Cha. It would have been disasterous for Eladrin wizardish flavor but would have produced a Dex-Cha Eladrin, much like the Archfey in the Monster Manuals, not to mention like the Drow. It would also have produced Eladrin Storm Sorcerers. Im sure the designers were sorely tempted to go that route. But then Eladrin would have ended up as mostly Rogues and indistinguishable from 'mundane' races such as the Dex-Cha Halfling. The magic would be gone.
Fortunately for the sake of *magical* Fey flavor, Im so glad the developers went with Int;Cha,Dex. Notably, Eladrin are thus a race of scholars. As either Int-Cha or Int-Dex, Intelligence is always the primary racial ability. In this way Int-Dex Swordmages are arcane 'warrior-scholars'. And even Cha-Int Bards become arcane artists who are scholarly, technically-sophisticated, historiographic, philosophical, courtly, and masters of rituals.
This innate value of arcane studies is partly why Eladrin delegitimize the Warlock class, whose magic is precisely non-scholastic.
In the arcane abundance of the Feywild, the native Eladrin culture strongly encourages arcane classes:
• Int-Cha: Enchanter Wizard, Mage Wizard
• Cha-Int: Cunning Bard
• Int-Dex: Wand Wizard, Swordmage (Bladesinger?)
• Int: Artificer
• Dex-Int: (no such builds)
Warlockry is the antithesis of Eladrin culture, a perversity of arcane power that resorts to oath-bound pacts with Fey enemies or worse. Warlocks range from loners to public enemies.
• Cha-Int: Fey Warlock
The official racial fluff is unclear where sorcery stands in Eladrin society. Presumably the lack of Intelligence guarantees it low status, however its utilization of innate magic is probably less threatening than warlockry. Maybe analogous to arcane 'athletes' who occasionally achieve celebrity.
• Cha: Sorcerer
According to the official flavor, Eladrin culture is aware of psionic classes. The psionic mind-affecting flavor matches Eladrin enchanting flavor, and psionic class mechanics matches Eladrin race mechanics. Particularly, Psions are scholastic and Monks are disciplined. Eladrin psionic schools are a known phenomenon in the Feywild. But exotic.
• Int-Cha: Telepath Psion, Shaper Psion
• Dex: Monk
• Cha: Ardent
The shadow in the plane of Shadowfell juxtaposes the arcane in the plane of Feywild. Eladrin could pursue death magic in the subterranean Feydark, where the planar tunnels enter the Shadowdark. The case of the Banshee may be relevant.
• Dex: Assassin
However in the Middle World, the Eladrin assimilate the Human culture and may take up nonarcane pursuits such as martial classes:
• Dex: Rogue, Ranger
• No Str; but Int andor Cha: Warlord
Eladrin dont gravitate to divine or primal classes. It seems the Eladrin dont have Clerics because those ancient families who served divine offices schismed to become the Drow. Lolth twists this ancestral heritage. Even the Elf culture honors the primal classes, Predatory Druids and Vengeful Seekers, rather than the divine classes, Pursuit Avengers, Invokers, and Clerics. As such, it is the Eladrin Bards who maintain the sacred friendship with the Corellon, in the Astral Sea, as ambassadors of arcane power and beauty.
Eladrin Paladins exist, but these usually derive from human spiritual traditions. However some whose-names-be-erased may be Paladins of Lolth.
• Cha: Paladin
More than anything else, the Eladrin natives of the Feywild are an arcane culture.
In the arcane abundance of the Feywild, the native Eladrin culture strongly encourages arcane classes:
• Int-Cha: Enchanter Wizard, Mage Wizard
• Cha-Int: Prescient Bard
• Int-Dex: Wand Wizard, Swordmage (Bladesinger?)
• Int: Artificer
• Dex-Int: (no such builds)
Should be Cunning Bard, not Prescient Bard. Prescient Bard is the Cha-Wis option. Luckily, the Trickster-type Cunning Bard is also a very scholarly one, and fits the culture just as well as the history and memory and clairvoyant build that is the Virtue of Prescience.
Warlockry is the antithesis of Eladrin culture, a perversity of arcane power that resorts to oath-bound pacts with Fey enemies or worse. Warlocks range from loners to public enemies.
• Cha-Int: Fey Warlock
I wouldn't necessarily say Warlockry is the antithesis of Eladrin Culture. This seems to be your interpretation. The Winter Court Pact article seemed to imply that Eladrin of the Winter Court would often make pacts with their Archfey; also, the new article with familiars shows that you can have a Coure Attendant as a familiar – this is a very likely familiar for Fey Pact Warlocks and for Eladrin. I really wouldn't necessarily say Warlocks have to be a perversity of their culture: it can just as easily be as drawing power from your home Court in the Feywild.
The official racial fluff is unclear where sorcery stands in Eladrin society. Presumably the lack of Intelligence guarantees it low status, however its utilization of innate magic is probably less threatening than warlockry. Maybe analogous to arcane 'athletes' who occasionally achieve celebrity.
• Cha: Sorcerer
According to the official flavor, Eladrin culture is aware of psionic classes. The psionic mind-affecting flavor matches Eladrin enchanting flavor, and psionic class mechanics matches Eladrin race mechanics. Particularly, Psions are scholastic and Monks are disciplined. Eladrin psionic schools are a known phenomenon in the Feywild. But exotic.
• Int-Cha: Telepath Psion, Shaper Psion
• Dex: Monk
• Cha: Ardent
The shadow in the plane of Shadowfell juxtaposes the arcane in the plane of Feywild. Eladrin could pursue death magic in the subterranean Feydark, where the planar tunnels enter the Shadowdark. The case of the Banshee may be relevant.
• Dex: Assassin
However in the Middle World, the Eladrin assimilate the Human culture and may take up nonarcane pursuits such as martial classes:
• Dex: Rogue, Ranger
• No Str; but Int andor Cha: Warlord
Eladrin don't gravitate to divine or primal classes. It seems the Eladrin dont have Clerics because those ancient families who served divine offices schismed to become the Drow. Lolth twists this ancestral heritage. Even the Elf culture honors the primal classes, Predatory Druids and Vengeful Seekers, rather than the divine classes, Pursuit Avengers, Invokers, and Clerics. As such, it is the Eladrin Bards who maintain the sacred friendship with the Corellon, in the Astral Sea, as ambassadors of arcane power and beauty.
Eladrin Paladins exist, but these usually derive from human spiritual traditions. However some whose-names-be-erased may be Paladins of Lolth.
• Cha: Paladin
Eladrin Paladins of Corellon are VERY common in the official art. In addition, Divine Power discusses how Divine Orders to the Fey Gods – Corellon and Sehanine – are ancient and run strong amongst the Eladrin of the Feywild. I would venture to say that Clerics are not as common, but Paladins don't derive from Human traditions, but rather from rich Eladrin religious orders.
More than anything else, the Eladrin natives of the Feywild are an arcane culture.
Agreed.
By the way, I mean 'antithesis' in the sense of 'thesis, antithesis, and synthesis'. Warlockry is a dark side of Eladrin, but very much part of the Eladrin.
Eladrin culture actually rejects warlockry. It seems, this is the flavor that the devs are adopting from here forward. Several recent sources touch on the supremacy of arcane scholasticism. Attitudes concerning warlockry are explicit in this one.
Dragon 390 'Winning Races: Eladrin'.
To Eladrin, arcane magic is supreme gift - an art epitomized by Swordmage and Wizard. However, Artificers and Warlocks stand out due to the attitudes of the prevailing arcane culture.
Warlocks have a worse reputation in a culture that idealizes diligent study as the proper means of attaining arcane power. Many eladrin Wizards dismiss Warlocks as lazy and dangerous at best or traitors and lunatics at worst. Because of this cultural stigma, most Eladrin Warlocks are loners. While they might favor the fey pact, few find patrons among [the Archfey of] their own kind. ... Many Eladrin Warlocks emerge from prominent schools of wizardry, where prospective [pact] patrons or their agents secretly search for promising candidates from among the most ambitious, disaffected, reckless, or desperate apprentices. The patron entices the warlock with prophetic visions and a continual susurrus of arcane secrets that knowing students refer to as “twilight lectures.” Those who pledge themselves to a patron often find that their newfound power alienates them, and most Warlocks soon leave school. Some depart voluntarily. Many others, especially those attending more conservative academies, are expelled. Those that remain either keep their pact secret or are subject to increasing amounts of scrutiny and ostracism.
Wizard schools repesent the ideals of Eladrin society, epitomizing their values, both philosophically and pragmatically arcane.
'Should be Cunning Bard, not Prescient Bard.'
Thanks for catching that. 'Cunning' is the 'Cha-Int' Bard build. So far, articles havent delved the topic of Eladrin Cunning Bards, but the bardic motifs of arcane beauty, asthetics, unearthly grace, and even hedonistic revelry saturate the racial flavor text. The Eladrin officially shun warlockry, but they seem to not criminalize it outright. There may well be communities among the Eladrin, where being a Warlock can be a 'widely shared' secret.
Certainly, there are Eladrin individuals from every class and power source. They do fine. The question is, which classes does Eladrin culture idealize as the representatives of their highest values? Power shapes cultural values because it promotes survival. Moreover racial advantages select for certain classes that can express power best and via evolutionary processes rise in prestige.
Warlocks are a haunting threat to Eladrin society because their values are so similar Wizards - arcane power and enchantment - and they even excel because of the same racial tendencies - intelligent and charismatic. However in other ways, Warlocks undermine the scholastic relationships that organize Eladrin society and that forms the cooperative strategies for survival and ambition.
All cultures have examples of antithesis. For example, in 20th-century America, Communism was an intimate threat. On the one hand it exploited American values of equality and sharing. On the other hand it undermined the enforced capitalistic relationships that organize American strategies of survival and ambition. So a Warlock among the scholarly leadership of the Eladrin experience hostility similar to a Communist among the American leadership during the Cold War. A Warlock could go thru life enjoying a grudging respect from other Eladrin. However if a disaffected Warlock made a pact with an enemy of the Eladrin, such as the Drow Dark Pact or even worse a pact with some Farrealm entity, the reaction by fellow Eladrin against that Warlock may be extremely (and systematically) violent.
Hunterian: 'Why [would] not having a +2 in a specific stat ruin a racial build in a class'.
Certainly, there are Eladrin individuals from every class and power source. They do fine. The question is, which classes does Eladrin culture idealize as the representatives of their highest values? Power shapes cultural values because it promotes survival. Moreover racial advantages select for certain classes that can express power best and via evolutionary processes rise in prestige.
Warlocks are a haunting threat to Eladrin society because their values are so similar Wizards - arcane power and enchantment - and they even excel because of the same racial tendencies - intelligent and charismatic. However in other ways, Warlocks undermine the scholastic relationships that organize Eladrin society and that forms the cooperative strategies for survival and ambition.
All cultures have examples of antithesis. For example, in 20th-century America, Communism was an intimate threat. On the one hand it exploited American values of equality and sharing. On the other hand it undermined the enforced capitalistic relationships that organize American strategies of survival and ambition. So a Warlock among the scholarly leadership of the Eladrin experience hostility similar to a Communist among the American leadership during the Cold War. A Warlock could go thru life enjoying a grudging respect from other Eladrin. However if a disaffected Warlock made a pact with an enemy of the Eladrin, such as the Drow Dark Pact or even worse a pact with some Farrealm entity, the reaction by fellow Eladrin against that Warlock may be extremely (and systematically) violent.
I don't think that is quite what he is asking, although the answer is good from a philosophical standpoint.
Not having a +2 bonus in a primary attribute does not break the character. I have made many fun, if sub-optimal characters, like my Deva Monk.
However, there were certain disconnects between the fluff and the mechanics when it came to the racial descriptions and the classes they favored.
Dwarves were said to excel at being Fighters (and were great Fighters before Essentials thanks in large part to their Feat support), but they did not have a racial bonus to Strength prior to Essentials. In the same vein, Tieflings, by their descriptions, should be shoo-ins for the Infernal Warlock, and Eladrin should be no brainers for Fey Pact Warlocks, yet they both lacked the bonus to the Primary attribute that supports their racial tendencies.
This was especially jarring in the case of Tieflings, where the bullet points specifically say that Tieflings favor the Warlock class (just not the one that deals with the infernal entities that forged their race, but they do favor the build that stems from the Feywild?). This disconnect was eased somewhat by the release of Powers that used Charisma but held Infernal Pact riders.
When a race is said to favor a class, one assumes that it is because they have natural abilities that line up with the primary attribute of a class. There are quite a few examples throughout the early races were this is simply not true. Essentials will correct this discrepency.
Hunterian: 'Why [would] not having a +2 in a specific stat ruin a racial build in a class'.
Certainly, there are Eladrin individuals from every class and power source. They do fine. The question is, which classes does Eladrin culture idealize as the representatives of their highest values? Power shapes cultural values because it promotes survival. Moreover racial advantages select for certain classes that can express power best and via evolutionary processes rise in prestige.
Warlocks are a haunting threat to Eladrin society because their values are so similar Wizards - arcane power and enchantment - and they even excel because of the same racial tendencies - intelligent and charismatic. However in other ways, Warlocks undermine the scholastic relationships that organize Eladrin society and that forms the cooperative strategies for survival and ambition.
All cultures have examples of antithesis. For example, in 20th-century America, Communism was an intimate threat. On the one hand it exploited American values of equality and sharing. On the other hand it undermined the enforced capitalistic relationships that organize American strategies of survival and ambition. So a Warlock among the scholarly leadership of the Eladrin experience hostility similar to a Communist among the American leadership during the Cold War. A Warlock could go thru life enjoying a grudging respect from other Eladrin. However if a disaffected Warlock made a pact with an enemy of the Eladrin, such as the Drow Dark Pact or even worse a pact with some Farrealm entity, the reaction by fellow Eladrin against that Warlock may be extremely (and systematically) violent.
I don't think that is quite what he is asking, although the answer is good from a philosophical standpoint.
Not having a +2 bonus in a primary attribute does not break the character. I have made many fun, if sub-optimal characters, like my Deva Monk.
However, there were certain disconnects between the fluff and the mechanics when it came to the racial descriptions and the classes they favored.
Dwarves were said to excel at being Fighters (and were great Fighters before Essentials thanks in large part to their Feat support), but they did not have a racial bonus to Strength prior to Essentials. In the same vein, Tieflings, by their descriptions, should be shoo-ins for the Infernal Warlock, and Eladrin should be no brainers for Fey Pact Warlocks, yet they both lacked the bonus to the Primary attribute that supports their racial tendencies.
This was especially jarring in the case of Tieflings, where the bullet points specifically say that Tieflings favor the Warlock class (just not the one that deals with the infernal entities that forged their race, but they do favor the build that stems from the Feywild?). This disconnect was eased somewhat by the release of Powers that used Charisma but held Infernal Pact riders.
When a race is said to favor a class, one assumes that it is because they have natural abilities that line up with the primary attribute of a class. There are quite a few examples throughout the early races were this is simply not true. Essentials will correct this discrepency.
very true, i wasn't stating that the class builds were ruined by not having a +2. i have read others stating that though on forums. interesting on the dwarf not as the optimal fighter. whenever i made dwarf fighters i always envisioned them as tough and resilient instead of strong but that isn't quite true though. i could have either a dwarf fighter with con 16 and str 16 or con 18 and str 14. i preferred the latter as the fighter weapon talent gave a plus one to the somewhat weak plus two str bonus of 14. i always prefer my defenders to absorb damage so the high con helped.
now though, hopefully a dwarf fighter can get a str 18 without sacrificing con.
QTF.
The case of the Eladrin Paladin is weird.
In the Feywild, an Eladrin Paladin seems at odds with Eladrin culture.
Corellon, who the Eladrin see as their kinsman, cares more about the arcane power source than the divine power source. Precisely because of this shared ideal, the Eladrin strongly emphasize a scholastic arcane culture. They use arcane means to stay in touch with Corellon and dont pursue divine means.
Moreover, Eladrin as a race dont excel at the Cleric class. So this kind of institutionalization of spirituality that is so common in the Human culture and especially in the Dwarf culture, just doesnt flourish in the Eladrin culture. As a group, Eladrin prefer rational philosophy (Int) and ecstatic orgies (Cha) as their vehicles of spirituality. Their sages and artists - and even their warriors - are their spiritual leaders. (Ok, Marandahir, the sages, artists, and warriors do remind me of Zen Buddhism, but emphatically it is the arcane magic that physicalizes the spirituality, not the mundane warcraft. Even the Swordmagic is a magical art.) Eladrin tend to prefer a transpersonal and transcendent worldview, such as the arcane power source being the Infinite. For Eladrin, magic is spirituality.
Eladrin tend strongly toward arcane classes. Nevertheless, Eladrin Paladins can readapt divine institutions that originally honored Lolth. Eladrin society includes Drow and Elves who have chosen reunify. These Drow communities may establish divine houses among the Eladrin cities. Even the arcane Corellon (and the primal Sehanine) may indulge these divine offerings until some future restoration of Eladrin society can rebalance the Drow traditions. (These Drow Clerics may include both males and females. In the Underdark, the Lolthian matriarchal Clerics may be a symptom of imbalance that compels the males to surrogate the absence of Eladrin arcane sages.) These Drow houses in the Feywild ordain Clerics and Paladins.
Eladrin who grow up as neighbors of these Drow houses and who show talent may try to join their Paladin orders, thus enter a Drow tradition. Eladrin can do well as Paladins. Inevitably other Eladrin notice their accomplishments.
for me the bonus to stats has only been an issue for optimization of a race into a role. i have used an eladrin as a fey warlock with a cha of 16 and an int of 16. the character worked well. i don't understand why not having a +2 in a specific stat, like cha, would ruin a racial build in a class, like a warlock. it's not all about the 18's for a class to function effectively.
Blame the game developers who thought that PC's should miss as often 40% of the time and in turn caused attack bonus to become the most important stat in the game.
THE EVOLUTION
OF THE FEY RACES
(HYPOTHESIS)
Eladrin
Int-Cha
| \
Eladrin \
Int-Dex \
/ \ \
Elf Drow
Int-Dex Dex-Cha
| |
| Drow
| Wis-Cha
| /
| /
Elf
Wis-Dex
THE EVOLUTION
OF THE FEY RACES
(HYPOTHESIS)
Eladrin
Int-Cha
| \
Eladrin \
Int-Dex \
/ \ \
Elf Drow
Int-Dex Dex-Cha
| |
| Drow
| Wis-Cha
| /
| /
Elf
Wis-Dex
Wow, well done. And I wouldn't have thought about Wis for Drow, but it makes sense given the weight of Lolth's cult in their society. A Wis+Cha Drow is a perfect Cleric. So I guess Cha is going to be their primary. While Elves should have Dex as primary.
for me the bonus to stats has only been an issue for optimization of a race into a role. i have used an eladrin as a fey warlock with a cha of 16 and an int of 16. the character worked well. i don't understand why not having a +2 in a specific stat, like cha, would ruin a racial build in a class, like a warlock. it's not all about the 18's for a class to function effectively.
Blame the game developers who thought that PC's should miss as often 40% of the time and in turn caused attack bonus to become the most important stat in the game.
Hmmmm.... I blame players who think they should hit 100% of the time and go into nerdrages when they miss. Personally, I think a 40% miss rate is perfectly acceptable. I like to play on hard mode, old school.
for me the bonus to stats has only been an issue for optimization of a race into a role. i have used an eladrin as a fey warlock with a cha of 16 and an int of 16. the character worked well. i don't understand why not having a +2 in a specific stat, like cha, would ruin a racial build in a class, like a warlock. it's not all about the 18's for a class to function effectively.
Blame the game developers who thought that PC's should miss as often 40% of the time and in turn caused attack bonus to become the most important stat in the game.
Hmmmm.... I blame players who think they should hit 100% of the time and go into nerdrages when they miss. Personally, I think a 40% miss rate is perfectly acceptable. I like to play on hard mode, old school.
i too like games with a high mortality rate amongst the pcs. for example, as dm i run a 7th level party under 9th level encounters.
But one point:
Where does it say that eladrin frown upon fey warlocks? Is that in the new Essentials stuff? because that doesn't really make sense to me, since some archfey ARE eladrin, and a fey pact could very well be with one of these archfey.
Eladrin don't gravitate to divine classes. As such, it is the Eladrin Bards who maintain the sacred friendship with the Corellon, in the Astral Sea, as ambassadors of arcane power and beauty. Eladrin Paladins exist, but these usually derive from Human spiritual traditions.
• Cha: Paladin
Divine Power discusses how Divine Orders to the Fey Gods – Corellon and Sehanine – are ancient and run strong amongst the Eladrin of the Feywild. I would venture to say that Clerics are not as common, but Paladins don't derive from Human traditions, but rather from rich Eladrin religious orders.
Actually, according to the book, Divine Power, certain Eladrin Paladins seem to derive from Human divine traditions.
Divine Power, New Paragon Paths, page 95.
'Champion of Corellon': A knight of the Eladrin courts, you are pledged to the service of the lords of the Fey. [However], you follow a personal code that resembles the chivalric traditions of the the Mortal World, but you bring a Fey perspective. Among the eladrin, those who follow this path are known as the Aelavellin Seldarine - the Sword Knights of the Seldarine. Most such champions are eladrin, elves, or half-elves, for Corellon is the patron of these peoples.
It seems these 'Champions of Corellon' derive from a Human tradition of divine holy warriors. Most likely, Half-Elves founded this tradition in the Middle World ('Mortal World') under the inspiration of their Human parents or loved ones, who happened to be Paladins. These innately tough, charismatic, and diplomatic Half-Elves flourish among the chivalry of the Paladins. Eventually a group of Half-Elf Paladins dedicated a new order to Corellon. They introduced this order to their Elven relatives who cohabitate the plane of the Middle World. Eventually, this divine order reached the courts of the Feywild via 'knights-errants' (that is, wandering Paladins who quest to make a name for themselves).
The Champions of Corellon emulate the 'chivalric traditions' of the Humans in the 'Mortal World', but adapt these traditions to a 'Fey perspective'. Thus Elven sensibilities reinvent the Human divine tradition. Among the Eladrin in the Feywild, these Champions of Corellon came to be known as the 'Sword Knights of Seldarine' (Aelavellin Seldarine). [Seldarine refers to both Corellon and Sehanine alluding to both Eladrin and Elven membership.]
Implicitly, there are Champions of Corellon who arent 'among the Eladrin', presumably among the Half-Elves and Elves in the Middle World. These two races, Elves and Half-Elves, call the Middle World home. Yet tellingly, even in the Feywild among the courts of the Eladrin, the members of this Paladin order called Aelavellin Seldarine are 'mostly Elves and Half-Elves' as well as 'Eladrin'. The Champions of Corellon appear to be an Elven and Half-Elven tradition, foreign to the Eladrin natives, and almost certainly derive from Half-Elf members of a Human divine tradition.
In the Feywild, Eladrin nobles seem happy to take advantage of this tradition and invite these Paladins to serve in a capacity that models the Fey eldritch knight Swordmages. These Champions of Corellon may be a foreign import, but they are a pragmatic one. They add a rare divine prowess to the arcane defenses of the Eladrin court, but perhaps more importantly, may serve as diplomatic channels to the Elven clans and the Human kingdoms in the Middle World.
I agree on the Drow should be CHA/WIS thing.
But one point:
Where does it say that eladrin frown upon fey warlocks? Is that in the new Essentials stuff? because that doesn't really make sense to me, since some archfey ARE eladrin, and a fey pact could very well be with one of these archfey.
The Eladrin anti-Warlock mentality comes from a recent Dragon article. Altho a freelancer wrote it, its selection almost certainly reflects the direction that the designers want to go in light of Essential.
Its a quality article.
At first the racial hostility upset me because Fey Warlocks synergize with the Eladrin race, and now theyr taboo? But once I got passed the shock ... If you think of this Warlock 'Fey Pact' as a uniquely Eladrin development - like a clandestine clan of arcane ninja or a secret 'freemason' fraternity machinating a planar conspiracy - it can be pretty fun ... and Im pretty sure this is how the designers intended it, to keep the dark edge of the Warlock even in the Feywild.
• Dex-Int: (no such builds)
fyi, there is a relatively new dex/int rogue build.
Fyi, there is a relatively new dex/int rogue build.
Remind me. For some reason I vaguely remember something like that being a minor mechanic, and not quite a whole 'build'?
Anyway, a martial tradition like this Rogue feature would probably originate in the Middle World among the Essential Dex-Int Elf, sorta like the Elf Ranger martial tradition.
for me the bonus to stats has only been an issue for optimization of a race into a role. i have used an eladrin as a fey warlock with a cha of 16 and an int of 16. the character worked well. i don't understand why not having a +2 in a specific stat, like cha, would ruin a racial build in a class, like a warlock. it's not all about the 18's for a class to function effectively.
Blame the game developers who thought that PC's should miss as often 40% of the time and in turn caused attack bonus to become the most important stat in the game.
Hmmmm.... I blame players who think they should hit 100% of the time and go into nerdrages when they miss. Personally, I think a 40% miss rate is perfectly acceptable. I like to play on hard mode, old school.
It also gives something for leaders to buff. The lower your miss chance, the less a hit buff matters.
Some Thoughts (Off Topic)
This has long been my personal suspicion. The accuracy levels (at PH1) were almost perfectly catered to leave room for CA and leader bonuses to get it waaay up. At least, that's how I see it.
Apparently afterwards folks realized "Oh, wait - what if they don't have a leader? Or what if they have a leader, but he's focused on healing instead of attack bonuses?" I suspect the idea was, originally, that the various types of leaders were balanced with one another, but that the healing types gave a result that many folks didn't care for (longer battles, because of lower accuracy and more HP).
It also gives something for leaders to buff. The lower your miss chance, the less a hit buff matters.
This has long been my personal suspicion. The accuracy levels (at PH1) were almost perfectly catered to leave room for CA and leader bonuses to get it waaay up. At least, that's how I see it.
Apparently afterwards folks realized "Oh, wait - what if they don't have a leader? Or what if they have a leader, but he's focused on healing instead of attack bonuses?" I suspect the idea was, originally, that the various types of leaders were balanced with one another, but that the healing types gave a result that many folks didn't care for (longer battles, because of lower accuracy and more HP).
Fyi, there is a relatively new dex/int rogue build.
Remind me. For some reason I vaguely remember something like that being a minor mechanic, and not quite a whole 'build'?
Anyway, a martial tradition like this Rogue feature would probably originate in the Middle World among the Essential Dex-Int Elf, sorta like the Elf Ranger martial tradition.
shadowy rogue build, martial power 2.
personally, i favor shadar-kai for this build.
The Champions of Corellon emulate the 'chivalric traditions' of the Humans in the 'Mortal World', but adapt these traditions to a 'Fey perspective'. Thus Elven sensibilities reinvent the Human divine tradition. Among the Eladrin in the Feywild, these Champions of Corellon came to be known as the 'Sword Knights of Seldarine' (Aelavellin Seldurne). Possibly, Seldarine/Seldurne is the name of a Half-Elf Paladin who was the first Champion of Correlon to swear allegiance to an Eladrin court, thus establishing the order in the plane of the Feywild. Probably, it is the name of the first Eladrin noble who sponsored this order.
The Seldarine are "The Fellowship of the Brothers and Sisters of the Wood", and they are the Elven Pantheon. In previous editions, this pantheon was headed by Corellon Larethian, with many other seities including Sehanine Moonbow (his consort) Deep Sashelas (god of aquatic elves), Hanali Celanil (goddess of love and beauty), Rillifane Rallathil (god of the woods), among others. You'll note that only Corellon and Sehanine made the cut into 4e, and are no longer considered racial-specific deities (much like Moradin of the dwarf pantheon).
Aelavellin Seldurne is most likely "Sword Knights of the Seldarine" in an Elvish tongue.
Am I alone in hoping that the "hexblade" isn't limited to using light blades? Eladrin could get a very cool class synch up here. Given their affinity for the longsword I think this could work very well . . . .
well, there's always a pactblade.
Fyi, there is a relatively new dex/int rogue build.
For some reason I vaguely remember something like that being a minor mechanic, and not quite a whole 'build'?
Anyway, a martial tradition like this Rogue feature would probably originate in the Middle World among the Essential Dex-Int Elf, sorta like the Elf Ranger martial tradition.
shadowy rogue build, martial power 2.
personally, i favor shadar-kai for this build.
Ah, Shadowy Rogue. Yeah, thats the one thats not quite a Dex-Int build. I had a quick look, but the only thing I found that relates to Int seems to be one Atwill power, Gloaming Cut. As far as I noticed, thats it. So its just a minor mechanic if the character happens to already have a decent Int, such as a multiclass or racial boost.
Gloaming Cut attacks with Dex, but its effect shifts Int squares then allows a Stealth check to hide. Flavorwise, it lets an intelligent Rogue dart in and out of the shadows. The power requires the use of a standard Rogue weapon, crossbow or light blade. (Or sling fwiw.)
Shadarkai could work as the origin of the Gloaming Cut technique. Altho hiding in 'shadows' (dimness) isnt really the same thing as the 'shadow power source' (death magic), the Shadarkai cast a literal shadow that has some kind of extra-dark threatening ambiance. You could play up this shadows flavor, and the Dex-Int Rogue power would gain a bleak menacing connotation.
Another suspect for the origin of the Gloaming Cut Rogue power could be the Dusk Elf. Theres a Bloodline/Heritage feat prerequiring Elf called, Dusk Elf Stealth.
• Any Elf can be Dex-Int.
• Dusk Elves specialize in hiding in shadows. The Bloodline feat itself is called 'Stealth' and grants a +1 bonus to Stealth checks.
• Followup Dusk Elf feats include: Gloaming Ward (gain concealment when bloodied), Gathering Night (become invisible if using total defense while concealed), Sehanines Boon (surge grants total concealment - however a pre-Essential Elven Wis that grants extra hit points should allow Int too), and finally the Dusk Elf Weapon Training feat specializes in the Light Blades, like the Gloaming Cut requires.
• As roguish followers of Sehanine, Dusk Elves would be using the same kinds of powers, even this very power.
In relation to Eladrin, its worth mentioning these Dusk Elves (Dragon 382, 68). They live in the Middle World, out of sight amidst the most remote wildernesses. Like other Elves, they deserted the Feywild during the civil war, but unlike the other Elves, they didnt embraced the primal power of the Middle World. They preserve their Eladrin identity but belong neither to the enchanted cities of the Feywild that Corellon exiled them from nor to the prison of pristine forests in the Middle World where Sehanine hides them. They dont seem particularly arcane, solemnly reject Corellon, and consider Sehanine of the moonlight nights to be their protector. The Dusk Elves value stealth, trickery, and twilight shadows, especially as Rogues. Their mood is stoic and calm, tho they can be intense in private.
The Champions of Corellon emulate the 'chivalric traditions' of the Humans in the 'Mortal World', but adapt these traditions to a 'Fey perspective'. Among the Eladrin in the Feywild, these Champions of Corellon came to be known as the 'Sword Knights of Seldarine' (Aelavellin Seldarine). Possibly, Seldarine is the name of a Half-Elf Paladin who was the first Champion of Correlon to swear allegiance to an Eladrin court, thus establishing the order in the plane of the Feywild. Probably, it is the name of the first Eladrin noble who sponsored this order.
The Seldarine are "The Fellowship of the Brothers and Sisters of the Wood", and they are the Elven Pantheon. In previous editions, this pantheon was headed by Corellon Larethian, with many other including Sehanine Moonbow (his consort), Deep Sashelas (aquatic elves), Hanali Celanil (love and beauty), Rillifane Rallathil (woods), among others. You'll note that only Corellon and Sehanine made the cut into 4e.
Thats helpful info about the old lore. So in the previous edition the name Seldarine meant something like, belonging to the siblingry of the woods. Even now this connotation would seem to corroborate a Middle World Elven origin for the Paladin order. I guess in the new 4e context, the name Seldarine would refer to the triad of Corellon-Sehanine-and-formerly-Lolth, or thereby the dyad of Corellon-and-Sehanine. Altho the Paladin order is dedicated to Corellon only, the Eladrin call their Feywild contingent 'Seldarine' to refer to both Corellon and Sehanine, thus allude to both its Eladrin and Elf membership respectively, also hinting at its foreign origin among the Elves and by extention the Half-Elves. So, for the Eladrin, the Elven membership could be a defining feature. They could even use the appellation 'Elven' imprecisely to refer to the foreign non-arcane aspects, especially its divine power source. (Notice how the Humans in the Middle World use the appellation Elven imprecisely to refer to the Fey language of those who inhabit the Feywild.) Of course, the term Seldarine would also emphasize the ancient unity of Eladrin and Elf, thus communicate how these Elves belong in the Feywild alongside the Eladrin, just like Sehanine belongs alongside Corellon.
The Champions of Corellon emulate the 'chivalric traditions' of the Humans in the 'Mortal World', but adapt these traditions to a 'Fey perspective'. Thus Elven sensibilities reinvent the Human divine tradition. Among the Eladrin in the Feywild, these Champions of Corellon came to be known as the 'Sword Knights of Seldarine' (Aelavellin Seldurne). Possibly, Seldarine/Seldurne is the name of a Half-Elf Paladin who was the first Champion of Correlon to swear allegiance to an Eladrin court, thus establishing the order in the plane of the Feywild. Probably, it is the name of the first Eladrin noble who sponsored this order.
The Seldarine are "The Fellowship of the Brothers and Sisters of the Wood", and they are the Elven Pantheon. In previous editions, this pantheon was headed by Corellon Larethian, with many other seities including Sehanine Moonbow (his consort) Deep Sashelas (god of aquatic elves), Hanali Celanil (goddess of love and beauty), Rillifane Rallathil (god of the woods), among others. You'll note that only Corellon and Sehanine made the cut into 4e, and are no longer considered racial-specific deities (much like Moradin of the dwarf pantheon).
Aelavellin Seldurne is most likely "Sword Knights of the Seldarine" in an Elvish tongue.
Thank you for raising this; I was going to say it myself. When Divine Power says "resembles the 'chivalric traditions' of the mortal world," it's not saying that these traditions originated in the Mortal World, but that there's a sort of convergent evolution of them. They're similar. These are holy knights devoted to Corellon.
Their are a lot of powers in Martial Power 2 which, if you are a shadowy rogue, get a significant boost based on your int score. (Shadowy rogues is that actually what they are called?)
If you know of more Int-using Rogue power, please mention them. I havent played a Rogue, and am especially unfamiliar with a Dex-Int pure-Rogue build. I havent seen such a build in charop either. According to the Character Builder, the 'Shadowy' build recommends other features and powers, but as far as I noticed, none of these use Int except Gloaming Cut.
When Divine Power says "resembles the 'chivalric traditions' of the mortal world," it's not saying that these traditions originated in the Mortal World, but that there's a sort of convergent evolution of them. They're similar. These are holy knights devoted to Corellon.
Sure, but the fact Half-Elves and Elves fill its ranks even among the Eladrin courts in the Feywild, suggests how the Champions of Corellon arent an Eladrin thing, but rather a Half Elf thing. The Eladrin culture includes both Elves and Drow who have repatriated with the Feywild race. Adapting these Elven and Drow cultures within the context of the Eladrin culture is cool.
Their are a lot of powers in Martial Power 2 which, if you are a shadowy rogue, get a significant boost based on your int score. (Shadowy rogues is that actually what they are called?)
If you know of more Int-using Rogue power, please mention them. I havent played a Rogue, and am especially unfamiliar with a Dex-Int pure-Rogue build. I havent seen such a build in charop either. According to the Character Builder, the 'Shadowy' build recommends other features and powers, but as far as I noticed, none of these use Int except Gloaming Cut.
i did a quick search of rogue powers in the compendium using the search term "intelligence". here is what came up:
Gloaming Cut, Rogue 1
Preparatory Shot, Rogue 1
Skip the Rock, Rogue 1
Deadly Knowledge, Rogue 2
Cunning Step, Rogue 2
Flattening Shot, Rogue 3
Shadow Steel Roll, Rogue 3
Lurker's Assault, Rogue 5
Killer's Ambush, Rogue 7
Shadow Boxer, Rogue 7
Deadly Sacrifice, Rogue 10
Fitting Demise, Rogue 13
Strike of Dancing Shadows, Rogue 13
Fell the Strong, Rogue 23
Killer's Retreat, Rogue 23
Killer's Gift, Rogue 27
all of the above powers are from martial power 2. eleven of the above powers have riders for the cunning sneak class feature, which is associated with the shadowy rogue build.
Another suspect for the origin of the Gloaming Cut Rogue power could be the Dusk Elf. Theres a Bloodline/Heritage feat prerequiring Elf called, Dusk Elf Stealth.
• Any Elf can be Dex-Int.
• Dusk Elves specialize in hiding in shadows. The Bloodline feat itself is called 'Stealth' and grants a +1 bonus to Stealth checks.
• Followup Dusk Elf feats include: Gloaming Ward (gain concealment when bloodied), Gathering Night (become invisible if using total defense while concealed), Sehanines Boon (surge grants total concealment - however a pre-Essential Elven Wis that grants extra hit points should allow Int too), and finally the Dusk Elf Weapon Training feat specializes in the Light Blades, like the Gloaming Cut requires.
• As roguish followers of Sehanine, Dusk Elves would be using the same kinds of powers, even this very power.
In relation to Eladrin, its worth mentioning these Dusk Elves (Dragon 382, 68). They live in the Middle World, out of sight amidst the most remote wildernesses. Like other Elves, they deserted the Feywild during the civil war, but unlike the other Elves, they didnt embraced the primal power of the Middle World. They preserve their Eladrin identity but belong neither to the enchanted cities of the Feywild that Corellon exiled them from nor to the prison of pristine forests in the Middle World where Sehanine hides them. They dont seem particularly arcane, solemnly reject Corellon, and consider Sehanine of the moonlight nights to be their protector. The Dusk Elves value stealth, trickery, and twilight shadows, especially as Rogues. Their mood is stoic and calm, tho they can be intense in private.
good point. dusk elf would make another excellent choice--both rolewise and rollwise--for the shadowy rogue build.
• The eldritch knights tend toward Int-Dex Swordmages (Bladesingers?)
i, too, expect bladesinger to be an int/dex swordmage build.
Im also added the Dex-Int Shadowy Rogue build to my Class-Race Abilities Synergy Table.
Why is Haldrik fervently arguing his own homebrew fluff as canon? Seriously, they clearly have a CHA bonus because they have orgies(Which is entirely non-canon)? What the hells?
And why has he spelled Seldarine wrong in every single post, deliberately?
I mean, in 3.5 my homebrew had elves that had three sexes(Male, female and both), incredibly loose sexuality(If Corellon hadn't meant us to have sex for pleasure, he/she/it wouldn't have made it so enjoyable) and a complete and utter disregard for any type of hierarchy outside of a respect for the high priest of Corellon, and spent much time and effort on rescuing drow from the underdark and guiding them back to goodness and the gods of the Seldarine. OK, fine, but that has nothing at all to do with canon 3.5 elves, who do not reflect pretty much any of that, nor would I ever claim any of it did. It was homebrew.
The Champion of Corellon paragon path is a homage to the Champion of Corellon Larethian prestige class in 3.5 from Races of the Wild. It was oriented more or less to Paladins or Fighters and had those suggested as entries. Elf(and half-elf) only. It was a holy warrior type PrC with an emphasis on DEX-related things, hence the CoC PP's DEX bonus in heavy armor feature.
That itself came off of the Corellon Larethian of previous editions, who was a god of magic, arts, crafts, protection and warfare. One of the traits always specifically called out in physical descriptions of him is his agility, and his avatar/god stats had high DEX. So a DEX-using holy warrior committed to protecting the Elven people would be the most natural thing in the world.
This still carries forward into 4E, even with the Bizzaro Corellon we have now. Plane Above presents a bit of lore wherin the Eladrin and other fey races are said to have been created from Corellon's tears of joy and sadness. (In previous editions, it was from Corellon's blood that the elves were born.) Corellon is still both a god of magic and a warrior god - We know that he still favors the longsword(Hence the Eladrin fondness for it) and that he put out Gruumsh's eye(Another thing reused from the original Corellon).
There is nothing at all to indicate in the fluff that Eladrin do not maintain strong religious traditions and everything to indicate that they do. For example, there's mention of Eladrin temples in the Feywild, some of which still have an undecorated altar formerly devoted to Lolth before her fall. I highly doubt that Elves and Elves alone are running these. Simply because a race does not have a +2 bonus in the appropriate stat does not mean that they don't have a religious tradition. Hey, Dragonborn don't have WIS, I bet they NEVER become priests of Bahamut, right?
Champion of Corellon, then, is a hearkening back to something in an older edition that was a perfect extension of the religious climate of the race that originated it. It still remains one. Yes, its code is said to resemble the codes of the prime material plane. So? So does having a bunch of courts with a bunch of intrigue. Clearly the Eladrin took that from humans too, oh wait no they didn't.
IIRC, the official canon uses the word 'revelries'.
I use the term 'orgies' in the Greek religious sense of ecstatic communal rites, like the bacchanalia. But also the sexual connotation can apply because reallife folklore about elves and fey is often sexual.
The Champion of Corellon paragon path is a homage to the Champion of Corellon Larethian prestige class in 3.5 from Races of the Wild. Elf (and half-elf) only. It was a holy warrior type PrC with an emphasis on DEX-related things, hence the CoC PP's DEX bonus in heavy armor feature. That itself came off of the Corellon Larethian of previous editions, who was a god of magic, arts, crafts, protection and warfare. A DEX-using holy warrior committed to protecting the Elven people would be natural. This still carries forward into 4E, even with the Bizzaro Corellon we have now.
Exactly. Half Elves. And Elves.
Eladrin dont need to be the originators of this divine tradition. It is legitimate to attribute its origins to Half Elves and Elves.
There is nothing at all to indicate in the fluff that Eladrin do not maintain strong religious traditions and everything to indicate that they do. For example, there's mention of Eladrin temples in the Feywild, some of which still have an undecorated altar formerly devoted to Lolth before her fall.
4e has a different spin on the power sources.
'Religious' ≠ 'divine'
For example, 'primal' Shamans can be 'religious' too.
It can be arcane Bards who preside over the spirituality of an Eladrin temple.
If Corellon wants to foster an *arcane* Eladrin culture, it seems counter-productive to make his representatives *divine*. Surely his agents would be arcane too?
I highly doubt that Elves and Elves alone are running these.
Elf repatriots would tend to be primal. It would be Drow repatriots who would tend to be divine. They would set up their own divine houses. Sort of like a monastary but without the asceticism. Of course, they would no longer worship Lolth, so they would update their divine traditions and often honor Corellon.
Simply because a race does not have a +2 bonus in the appropriate stat does not mean that they don't have a religious tradition. Hey, Dragonborn don't have WIS, I bet they NEVER become priests of Bahamut, right?
Dragonborn can and do make excellent Paladins. Their primary spiritual leaders would be *warriors*, more like generals and less like bureaucrats.
Anyway, just because a race has a religious tradition, doesnt mean the race has Clerics.
Eladrin most definitely have a tradition involving Divine classes. Saying otherwise is most definitely house-rules.
Eladrin include individuals who are arcane, psionic, primal, elemental, divine, shadow, and martial.
The first question is, which traditions organize the society as a whole. In this case, the Eladrin arent Humans and dont have a 'divine pope' to govern their society. Instead, they have wizards and swordmages to govern their society. Eladrin prioritize the arcane 'legal' tradition, and all other traditions organize within the arcane social structure.
The second question is, where do all of these power source traditions come from? The odds of two isolated cultures to independently develop the exact same Cleric class, would be statistically impossible. Obviously the Cleric tradition started from somewhere and spread to elsewhere. The leading suspects for the archeology of the Cleric class would be Humans, or perhaps even more likely, Dwarves. What if Lolth initiated her Cleric matriarchy *after* esconcing the Drow into the Underdark of the Middleworld, and she got the idea from some cave exploring Dwarf Clerics? Even in the D&D setting where the Immortals in the Astral Sea are objectively existing creatures, these Immortals are so different from eachother and would inspire different kinds of vocations and care about different kinds of power sources.
No fixation, just pragmatism. Paragon paths are official, and often contain tidbits of flavor that are important to consider.
'Seldarine Dedicate: prerequisite: Elf or Eladrin.'
Heh. You left out the important part of this Cleric paragon path. The prequisite actually says,
'Prerequisite: Elf or Eladrin, proficiency with longbow or shortbow'
Most likely the Elf race originated this 'Sendarine' Cleric paragon path. The Elf has Wisdom to make a decent Cleric, and has racial proficiency with the bow.
Just because some Eladrin joined this Elf Cleric path doesnt mean the Eladrin *invented* it. Likewise, just because some Elves invented this Cleric paragon path doesnt mean the Elves invented the Cleric class.
'The Champion of Corellon mentions that most such champions are Eladrin, elves, or half-elves.'
Of course there will be Eladrin individuals who want to join this Half-Elven tradition. These Half-Elven Champions of Corellon are serving in the Eladrin courts in the Feywild! Of course there will be Eladrin individuals who are familiar with them and take an interest in them. Eladrin Champions of Corellon arent significant evidence. What is significant is, there are so many Champions of Corellon in the Eladrin courts in the Feywild ... who are Half Elves!
'Eladrin have race specific feats for Avengers and Invokers. And so on and so forth.'
Race specific feats may or may not signify the origins of a class. Every culture adapts whatever it imports from another culture. Just look at how different American pizza is from Sicilian pizza. Heh, China doesnt even have American Chinese fortune cookies.
Ahem.
3.5
Primarily High Elven tradition. Guess what High Elves are in 4E? ELADRIN. Thank you.
And again, only your obsession with your own homebrew fluff leads you to insist that an obviously Eladrin tradition was started by half-elves. Nothing mentions ANY kind of numbers for who makes up the tradtion, and Eladrin are mentioned first. You're just making things up completely from whole cloth and then insisting that your own homebrew is absolute canon.
And no, Corellon's PRIESTS aren't going to be arcane power source, they're going to be DIVINE power source, very likely multiclassed to a suitable arcane class, but they're going to be PRIESTS first. *facepalm*
I'll leave you to your cute little delusions now.
4e fluff isnt exactly the same as 3e fluff. Just because 3e 'high elves' did something doesnt mean 4e Eladrin will do the exact same thing.
In 4e, Eladrin and Elf are different races. *Both* of them inherit from the standard 3e high elf to some degree. Thats why the Eladrin gets the 3e high-elf sword, but the Elf gets the 3e high-elf bow. The old classic 'elf' streamlined into separate races, each with its own separate assemblage of traits, classes, history, and culture.
Eladrin gets *some* of the old high-elf stuff, and Elf gets *some* of the old high-elf stuff.
Eladrin doesnt get everything.
( ;) Thank goodness, nobody gets the Con penalty!)
Nai: 'Nothing mentions ANY kind of numbers for who makes up the tradtion.'
To the contrary, Divine Power says this about these 'Seldarine' Paladins: 'Among the Eladrin, those who follow this path are known as the Aelavellin Seldarine. Most such champions are eladrin, elves, and half-elves.'
Even among the Eladrin, the Half-elves make up a significant number.
Moreover, the bow-wielding 'Seladrine' Clerics seem to have Elven origins. Similarly, the 'Seladrine' Paladins seem to have Half-Elven origins along with significant quick-speed ignore-difficult-terrain Elven adaptations.
If you do anything beyond simply regurgitating the 'official' fluff word for word, what you say is going to be, in some sense, 'homebrew'. I don't think Haldrik has claimed anything he's said here is official canon. He's just stating his own view of what eladrin are like.
I can't help thinking some of those who are arguing with Haldrik are doing so more because they have some personal issue with him rather than because they seriously think posting a personal interpretation of eladrin culture is 'wrong'.
If people don't like Haldrik's interpretation or think it's silly or inconsistent, they should feel free to say so. But to criticise what he's said purely on the basis that it somehow pollutes the sacred purity of the official canon just seems rather creepily fanboyish to me. There's nothing special about the fluff WotC produces that makes it somehow superior to anyone's homebrew fluff, as I'm sure WotC's own writers would be the first to point out.
I find Haldrik's musings interesting.
I appreciate your interest. By the way, I also enjoy your posts.
Do anything beyond simply regurgitating the 'official' fluff word for word.
Exactly. The musings arent meant to be a simple regurgitation of the official fluff. They are meant to try make sense of the canon, especially as it evolves into Essential.
My musings (great word) refer to the canon but really are a 'midrash' on the canon. Its an eisegetical interpretation that intentionally smooths over the incongruencies in the canonical texts. By weaving inferences from the wordings elsewhere in the canon, it fills in the missing details, 'explains' (often novelly) the problematic details, and retcons the newer details that recent authors added but earlier authors didnt anticipate.
What matters for a midrash is the wording of the canon and the worldview as a whole. The meaning that each author originally intended has less relevance. Of more relevance is how the words themselves relate to the realities that exist now. The goal is world building: an expansive, living, breathing, rich, and coherent universe that can still call the canon 'true'.
As we enter the new 'design philosophies' 'going forward', some of the older canonical texts make less sense. Its fun to reinterpret the old stuff in ways that work well with the new stuff.
Dragon 391, 'Winning Races: Dwarves', 76:
The dwarves were the first of Moradin’s makings that made him proud not only of his own skill, but proud to know them, and prouder still they prayed to him. Dwarves honor their creator through prayer, but also through proud traditions. Knowledge and customs passed down through the generations − almost unchanged from the Dawn Age − guide dwarves through the uncertain present and into the unknowable future with the confidence that what has been will be.
Here the Dwarves seem to guard a staunchly divine culture. These 'prayers' and 'traditions' that honor the Immortal who created them also 'guide' them and inspire 'confidence' in all their endeavors. These divine traditions appear to have 'passed down' from generation to generation 'almost unchanged from the Dawn Age'. Thus this organized religious activity - apparently including the Wis-Con Warpriest Cleric class that exists today - has always existed among dwarves since the beginning.
The Dwarf culture appears to invent the divine Cleric tradition, with all other cultures ultimately importing and adapting it from them. According to this mythic text, the Immortal Moradin was the maker of the Dwarf race, presumably carving them out of bedrock and bringing them to life. He was proud his own ability to make the Dwarves, but also became proud of who the Dwarves would choose to become. Theirs is a culture of pride. At this archetypical time (apparently after they achieved their own freedom from slavery), the Dwarves freely chose to 'pray to him'. This seminal event appears to refer to the moment the Dwarves invented the Cleric class, whose resulting customs survive unchanged to this day.
Despite the exceedingly staunch and unchanging racial tradition, the Dwarven divine customs are probably sincere and informal. At that archetypical moment, they simply chose to pray. The Dwarves probably eschew elaborate rituals and instead prefer family gatherings and clan reunions to express their spiritual devotion. With mugs of ale, of course. Holy ale.
It makes sense that the gods initially desired such living weapons and mostly weren't too concerned with the functions of the cleric class (healing and inspiring mortal allies). The cleric therefore makes more sense as springing from a mortal tradition, as its class features and powers primarily address mortal, rather than divine, concerns.
Gods don't need healing or encouragement. In the early days of Creation, the gods probably did not understand the needs of their mortal 'children' sufficiently to realise that they would require such things.
Moradin is described as a rather distant god, who left the dwarves to their own devices to a greater degree than other gods did with their creations. Compare this to Corellon, Sehanine and (before her fall) Lolth, who seem to have lived among their mortal 'children' in the Feywild as one big family, with little distinction between mortal and divine. The fey races would see no need for clerics, since their gods were always present (in those early days) to provide healing and inspiration by their direct physical presence. The dwarves, by contrast, were 'abandoned' by Moradin early on (before the Dawn War) and enslaved by the giants. They needed individuals who could communicate with their divine parent and channel his power, not as a weapon, but as healing and encouragement in their darkest hour. Their need for clerics, rather than invokers, would have been pretty much unique among the mortal races at that time.
And, with a distant god who seems to have encouraged self-reliance among his creations, a tradition where priests formed their own divine organisations, with orderly hierarchies and a ritual to invest new members as clerics, makes more sense for dwarves than the more individual, covenant-based invokers.
Clerics just 'get on with it' themselves, without the direct intervention of their diety in day-to-day matters, rather than begging their god for each individual prayer as an invoker does. That does feel very 'dwarfy' to me.
On the other hand, I don't really see dwarven clerics eschewing rituals and formality as you describe. They might have started out that way, but the dwarven clerical tradition has had millennia to grow since then. Dwarves like tradition, and their god is rather grim and distant (not the sort of deity you can just 'sit down and have a beer with'), so it seems to me that their clerical rituals would have become quite elaborate and formal over the years. I've always seen dwarven religion as resembling the Eastern Orthodox churches:
- lots of chanting/singing and incense to properly focus the mind in prayer (dwarves always make me think of Russian male voice choirs, for some reason);
- an elaborate system of symbolism, not to confuse and obfuscate, but to remind mortals of the difficulty of truly approaching and understanding the divine (basically, the symbols are there as a sign of humility - an admission that mere mortals need symbols);
- the making of beautifully-crafted icons and other religious symbols is an act of worship in itself;
- a focus on theosis and on 'saints' as both encouraging examples and spiritual intermediaries (Moradin's exarchs are all archetypes of the 'ideal' dwarf every dwarf should aspire to resemble, and they also fill in as more 'approachable' figures to pray to than the distant All-Father);
- rituals that recall the past and maintain the idea of 'growth without change';
- readings from ancient texts to preserve the wisdom of the ancestors;
- an organisation into largely-independent 'churches' (probably on a clan basis), each with minor variations in 'typica', but with the same basic beliefs at the core;
- the idea of separation from the divine as the mortal's 'ultimate dilemma';
- the idea that each individual is entirely responsible for their own actions in the eyes of their creator (i.e. there is no 'inheritance of sin').
Then I remembered the invoker. We know that the gods initially invested mortals with divine power through an individual covenant, and that these invokers (initially intended as living weapons in the Dawn War) were the very first mortals to wield divine power.
Brilliant!
It makes sense that the gods initially desired such living weapons and mostly weren't too concerned with the functions of the cleric class (healing and inspiring mortal allies). The cleric therefore makes more sense as springing from a mortal tradition, as its class features and powers primarily address mortal, rather than divine, concerns. Gods don't need healing or encouragement. In the early days of Creation, the gods probably did not understand the needs of their mortal 'children' sufficiently to realise that they would require such things.
Moradin is described as a rather distant god, who left the dwarves to their own devices to a greater degree than other gods did with their creations. The dwarves, by contrast, were 'abandoned' by Moradin early on (before the Dawn War) and enslaved by the giants. They needed individuals who could communicate with their divine parent and channel his power, not as a weapon, but as healing and encouragement in their darkest hour. Their need for clerics, rather than invokers, would have been pretty much unique among the mortal races at that time.
And, with a distant god who seems to have encouraged self-reliance among his creations, a tradition where priests formed their own divine organisations, with orderly hierarchies and a ritual to invest new members as clerics, makes more sense for dwarves than the more individual, covenant-based invokers.
Clerics just 'get on with it' themselves, without the direct intervention of their diety in day-to-day matters, rather than begging their god for each individual prayer as an invoker does. That does feel very 'dwarfy' to me.
Solid.
On the other hand, I don't really see dwarven clerics eschewing rituals and formality as you describe. They might have started out that way, but the dwarven clerical tradition has had millennia to grow since then. Dwarves like tradition, and their god is rather grim and distant (not the sort of deity you can just 'sit down and have a beer with'), so it seems to me that their clerical rituals would have become quite elaborate and formal over the years. I've always seen dwarven religion as resembling the Eastern Orthodox churches.
The difficulty is, the divine tradition is 'unchanging'. There was no evolution. They way it was in the Dawn War is the same way it now. So they didnt elaborate its form over the years, and there seems to be limits to how elaborate it can be. Tho given the insightful (Wis) patient (Con) mind of a Dwarf, the tradition could be sufficiently complex from the getgo.
A possible solution is, there is more than one Dwarf divine tradition. Perhaps a 'mystic' tradition that is relatively simple, individualist, informal, and spontaneous. As well as a 'ritual' tradition that is highly elaborate, communal, formal, and planned.
The 'mystic' tradition may focus on pride and steadfastness, and honor their creator who exemplifies these qualities. Pure loyalty, especially in the form of clan and friend would be spiritual ideals. Dwarves may see challenges that call loyalty into question as spiritual opportunities, and the fickleness of other races bewildering.
Note, the Str-Con 'Wrathful Hammer' Runepriest is clearly a Dwarven tradition, and is an excellent candidate for the more formal and elaborate forms of their divine tradition. Probably the Dwarves invented the Runepriest tradition. The Runepriest class presents some curious implications. The spiritual focus is impersonal, on the runes (which Moradin inscribed?) rather than relating to Moradin as person. The center of the ritual activity is fire of the forge, that possibly also serves as hearth for heat. The purpose of the rituals is precisely to make weapons and armor, so as to defend the Dwarven clan. This is a communal activity that one-way-or-an-other requires contributions from every member of the clan. Perhaps some mine for ore, others refine it, and finally the master metal workers make the arms themselves while overseeing apprentices. All of this metal work would be deeply sacred and solemn - and patiently precise. This Dwarven Runepriest build is a Str-Con build. It doesnt necessarily benefit from any mental ability, so the emphasis is the physical prowess in battle that these shapes imbue. Thus while these runes can be elaborate in the sense of inscribing ornate decorations, the runes themselve appear fairly rugged and straightforward.
Plausibly, the Wis-Con individuals dont find the Runepriest rites especially appealing and tend to gravitate to the 'mystic' tradition to better express a more personal mode of spirituality.
• lots of chanting/singing and incense to properly focus the mind in prayer (dwarves always make me think of Russian male voice choirs, for some reason)
Russian choir. Sounds good to me. Probably, Russia is a good model generally. Especially the sacred artwork that is relatively straightforward and iconic, but can include ornate decorative metalwork. The culture also has a remarkable split between the sphere of family and friends that is extremely informal and the sphere of the sacred that is extremely formal, highly elaborate, both in decoration, tools, and choreography, and ... lasts all day long standing up!
I teased a Russian friend of mine, that for him, God existed in the church but didnt exist outside the church. The Orthodox service is definitely a point of contact with sacred for that society. For the Dwarves, this kind of activity may center around the forge.
The rugged cold of Dwarven mountain tops is a nice trope too.
• an elaborate system of symbolism, not to confuse and obfuscate, but to remind mortals of the difficulty of truly approaching and understanding the divine (basically, the symbols are there as a sign of humility - an admission that mere mortals need symbols)
Works very well with the Runepriest, tho the non-exceptional mental ability may emphasize an elaborate system of carving runes, less so an elaborate system of linguistics.
• the making of beautifully-crafted icons and other religious symbols is an act of worship in itself
• a focus on theosis and on 'saints' as both encouraging examples and spiritual intermediaries (Moradin's exarchs are all archetypes of the 'ideal' dwarf every dwarf should aspire to resemble, and they also fill in as more 'approachable' figures to pray to than the distant All-Father)
• rituals that recall the past and maintain the idea of 'growth without change'
• readings from ancient texts to preserve the wisdom of the ancestors
• an organisation into largely-independent 'churches' (probably on a clan basis), each with minor variations in 'typica', but with the same basic beliefs at the core
• the idea of separation from the divine as the mortal's 'ultimate dilemma'
• the idea that each individual is entirely responsible for their own actions in the eyes of their creator (i.e. there is no 'inheritance of sin').
Excellent.
By the way, the Dwarf race synergizes with many classes. The situation is a bit messy and requires some thought to organize. Much of it can be explained away. Such as, the Dwarves imported all of their Primal traditions from their Goliath neighbors. Its unclear whether an 'unchanging' Dwarven mountain city has enough 'room' for elaborate primal traditions. A thought is, Dwarf culture finds the primal tradition shameful. The first Dwarves to import the primal traditions were wanderers who were exiled from their Dwarf city. But since then Dwarves for various motives have left the citylife behind and joined the Dwarves of the wilderness.
A more difficult problem is the ancestor Clangaddin. He led the rebelion against the Titans and Giants. He appears to be some kind of Fighter. Probably he is a Str-Con Essential Knight. Alternatively, he may be a Str-Con 'Greataxe' Greatweapon Fighter or a Str-Con 'Battleaxe' Battlerager Fighter. (Possibly he is even the first Str-Con Runepriest? Except he wields an axe, and the Runepriest wields a hammer.) Almost certainly this Dwarf slave would import the Fighter class tradition from his Giant masters. In any case, he adapted the Fighter tradition of the Giants for axe-fighting, tho Im not sure whether two-handed greataxe or one-handed battleaxe (or waraxe). Clangaddin may even have invented the defensive Knight tradition, after modifying the Giant tradition. (Where the Giant got their tradition is unclear, since they seem neither like defensive Knights nor like dexterous Slayers. For the Giants, the Greatweapon and the Battlerager are surely the goto Fighter traditions.) Sociologically, the problem is, this martial Fighter tradition is a Dwarf archetype. So there will be sectors of Dwarf clan society where the martial power source prevails, and other sectors where the divine tradition prevails.
Perhaps, a Russian-esque model may help here too, with a sharp split between the sacred and the secular. While the Dwarves are engaging their ancestral rituals to forge weapons and armors, then the divine power source reigns supreme. But otherwise, the martial traditions tend to organize Dwarf relationships.
Notably, the 'spontaneous' Warpriest 'mystical' tradition can maintain divine conscienciousness during the regular day-to-day activities. Dwarves probably see these Clerics as 'priests' in the sense of personal spiritual guides and seek out their wisdom. The exact relationship between these divine spiritual-leader Warpriests and the martial military-leader Fighters needs more clarification. Who gets to boss who around? In medieval Russia, if there was a conflict between a Bishop and a Prince, what happened? It might be good analogy for a Dwarven chief Warpriest versus a military-general Fighter.
I notice, the Dwarves are stoic and patient and all that. However they associate with an amazingly high frequency of 'wrath' flavor. Such as the 'Wrath hammer' Runepriest tradition, but even the name 'Clangaddin' = 'clang' 'din'. Apparently Dwarves lose their cool in battle, perhapse even go insane with bloodlust. Perhaps it is even honorable to be non-stoic in battle, and this is a place where Dwarves can express this side of their nature? Ultimately, the Dwarves would have learned any berserker tendencies from the Goliaths or even their former Giant masters, but this (dysfunctional?) tradition is a known phenomenon. Even so, this battlefrenzy flavor is a bit incongruent for the methodical Dwarf Knights - if this is their archetypical defensive class.
By the way, the Dwarf race synergizes with many classes. The situation is a bit messy and requires some thought to organize. Much of it can be explained away. Such as, the Dwarves imported all of their Primal traditions from their Goliath neighbors. Its unclear whether an 'unchanging' Dwarven mountain city has enough 'room' for elaborate primal traditions. A thought is, Dwarf culture finds the primal tradition shameful. The first Dwarves to import the primal traditions were wanderers who were exiled from their Dwarf city. But since then Dwarves for various motives have left the citylife behind and joined the Dwarves of the wilderness.
with the new stats for dwarves, i have a hard time looking past the fact that dwarves arguably are the best race for primal classes, in part because its stats satisfy at least one build for each and every primal class (muls do, too). it makes me think that there simply must be a significant primal tradition among dwarves, albeit not all dwarves.
i am hoping that goliaths get the same stats as dwarves (con, str or wis) in part so that they can rightfully lay claim to the race best suited to the primal classes and primal tradition; but with muls having the same stats, i fear that wotc will be unwilling to make a third race with those stats. if goliaths do get those stats, it would help me greatly to overlook the compelling synergy between dwarves and primal classes, and return to viewing dwarf culture as the canon presents it. otherwise, dwarves just might have to make seismic cultural changes in my world.
p.s., it is very easy to envision dwarves with a robust primal tradition. primal spirits expelled and continue to repel encroaching elemental (and astral) forces. the titans and giants are representatives of those elemental forces. when the dwarves freed themselves from the giants' yoke, turning to the primal powers for support, protection, likemindedness (e.g., a love of the natural world and an opposition to threatening elemental forces) and a respect for ancestral spirits--including dwarf ancestral spirits--and spirits of the mountains and rocks and stones, just seems likely. i could easily see some dwarves turning back to moradin and other dwarves instead embracing primal traditions, or both.
that being said, i still would prefer if goliaths were tailored made for all primal classes, which would be accomplished with stats of con, str or wis.
With the new stats for dwarves, i have a hard time looking past the fact that dwarves arguably are the best race for primal classes, in part because its stats satisfy at least one build for each and every primal class (muls do, too). it makes me think that there simply must be a significant primal tradition among dwarves, albeit not all dwarves.
p.s., it is very easy to envision dwarves with a robust primal tradition. primal spirits expelled and continue to repel encroaching elemental (and astral) forces. the titans and giants are representatives of those elemental forces. When the dwarves freed themselves from the giants' yoke, turning to the primal powers for support, protection, likemindedness (e.g., a love of the natural world and an opposition to threatening elemental forces) and a respect for ancestral spirits - including dwarf ancestral spirits - and spirits of the mountains and rocks and stones, just seems likely. i could easily see some dwarves turning back to moradin and other dwarves instead embracing primal traditions, or both.
Yeah, there is no way around, somehow, Dwarves have a deeply entrenched primal tradition.
The problem is, primal flavor radically alters the Dwarf flavor from its classic D&D origins. Its probably best to say there are two separate Dwarf communities. One urban and one wild. The urban one is divine and lives in the high altitude mountain fortress cities. The wild one is primal. I imagine these, living in mountain forests, especially in caves near streams and waterfalls, or else roaming in nomadic mountain tribes that include Dwarf clans and Goliath clans.
I like your suggestion best, at the end of the Dawn War, the Dwarves split between those who turned their back on Moradin to join with the primal spirits to expel the Primordeals thus also expelling Moradin, and those who would not. There must have been a moment in Dwarf history where this was a painful dilemma. Moradin himself is probably civil with the primal Dwarves who shut him out of the Middleworld, since he is a grim aloof Immortal anyway, and even these Wild Dwarves maintain a strong connection to the earth. Even so, it seems clear, Moradin especially appreciates his Dwarven Clerics, who are remarkably loyal to him.
Are Goliaths descendents from the Primordeals? Via the Titans, the Giants descentd from them, but the Goliaths dont seem to be Giants. As such, are Goliaths just really big Dwarves? I didnt come across their origins, maybe Moradin created Goliaths after the Dwarves? Maybe Goliaths actually descended from Wild Dwarves, having attained their size from a mutation due to the wild-shaping Druids? If Goliaths descend from Giants, it is notable they too turned their backs on the Primordeals to join the primal spirits.
i am hoping that goliaths get the same stats as dwarves (con, str or wis) in part so that they can rightfully lay claim to the race best suited to the primal classes and primal tradition. but with muls having the same stats, i fear that wotc will be unwilling to make a third race with those stats.
if goliaths do get those stats, it would help me greatly to overlook the compelling synergy between dwarves and primal classes, and return to viewing dwarf culture as the canon presents it. otherwise, dwarves just might have to make seismic cultural changes in my world.
i still would prefer if goliaths were tailored made for all primal classes, which would be accomplished with stats of con, str or wis.
I agree.
I notice, Goliath could get Str;Con,Wis thus gain primary Strength to pick up Str-Wis Wildblood/Lifespirit Warden, and Wis-Str Protecting Spirit Bond Seeker. Still, I agree, the Goliaths would need primary Con (Con;Str,Wis like Dwarves) to pick up the spiritual leaders, Wis-Con Bear Shaman and Guardian Druid. If Goliath went with primary Strength then either there would have to be a tailormade Essential Druid or Shaman class with Wis Str, or else it would be the Wild Dwarves that served as the spiritual leaders for the Goliath! Of course, that would explain why Goliath can speak Dwarven. Then again, it may ultimately be better for the Goliath if they get the same stats as the Mul and Dwarves.
Does anyone know what the key abilities for the Essential Sentinal Druid is?
No matter what, the Goliath should excel at the primal classes, and the Essential-style classes and racial ability scores need to make this happen.
Going back to the 'urban' Dwarf, heres a way to fit all the pieces together.
Despite urbanization, the Fortress Dwarf is clannish and guarded. Dwarves form a kinship society. The foundation is the clan, namely an extended family usually comprising several houses. Each house may include great grandparents as the heads of the household, their offspring, their spouses who married in, and others who were adopted into the household, including servants. All take on the house name. (Particularly fecund houses tend to split off to form their own clan.)
These clans form a military culture, with two priestly traditions governing them. The Runepriests control the forge-temples. The Warpriests control the military.
The Runepriests are the Dwarven temple priests, where the forge area defines the sacred space. Feasts take place several times a year, when all Dwarves gather as one race at forge to venerate the artisanry of holy weapons and armors. They bring offerings of metals and gems, which the Runepriests store for later to forge new magic items. The Runepriest is an inherited position, and the Runepriests are actually members of a specific clan who forms a sacred caste. Even so, a Runepriest house may adopt talented metalworkers, and children of Runepriests can formally and honorably abdicate their sacred inheritance. Because of the feast offerings and personal votive offerings, the Runepriests accumulate vast hoards of precious metals and gems, which they are loath to surrender. This wealth is sacred, each sacrifice being dedicated for the forge, and even if it wont enter its fires anytime soon, the Runepriests along with the entire Dwarf city will guard it with their lives.
Since the Dawn War, Fortress Dwarves have been a military society. Every able-bodied Dwarf must serve not less than 10 years in the Dwarf army of each fortress city. Much of the motive for the standing army, originates from their vulnerability as former slaves but also from their hostility to change. Fortress Dwarf society will not yield to foreign cultures. Their standing army constitutes a special subculture because it is a breakdown of clan-based relationships. All Dwarves march together; whoever belongs where in which clan is irrelevant. The army is a sacred space that transcends the normal social boundaries. It is the Warpriests that command this sacred military space. The Warpriests are both the spiritual leaders and the military leaders (similar to the biblical 'Judges').
The Chief Warpriest is called the 'King' of the Fortress, whether male or female, but this is a divine authority of kingship, whose chief responsibility is the defense of the Dwarf race. All military officers are divine Warpriests. Society encourages exceptionally wise Dwarves who show military insight and vigilance to strive for the Warpriest holy order. The rank and file members of the military are mostly martial Knight Fighters, but may also include individual Dwarves from all walks of life. The Warpriest King has authority over all the clan chiefs, however, when a King passes away, the clan chiefs elect which Warpriest will serve as the next king-for-life.
Wild Dwarves
i like this term
The Runepriests are the Dwarven temple priests
on a slightly tangential and optimization note, slight inefficiencies in otherwise appropriate race-class combinations always irk me, like when the wrathful hammer runepriest gets military hammer and military mace (there's no such thing, btw) proficiencies, and seem tailor made for dwarves . . . who already get proficiency with the war hammer (thus making mul an arguably better choice). another example is the hell-themed paragon path and epic destiny that grant fire resistance, instead of additional fire resistance, thus penalizing tieflings in a way that almost no other race gets penalized--did i mention that these were hell-themed?
I've always seen ancestor reverence as a key part of Dwarven society, even in Dwarven cities. This is a clearly primal element (save in Eberron).
The Dwarves of Eberron have spent the majority of their history as warring clans/tribes. It was only after their territory was integrated into the greater Human empire of Galifar that they started on the "civilized" path. In spite of that, they still have strong warrior traditions. There's still a clan or two that continues their berserker warrior ways.
In a more exagerrated form of Northern Europe in our own history, Mror Dwarves were originally a culture oft spoke of for its skalds, beserkers, and penchant for long hair, who eventually became known for their neutrality and mercantile expertise.
The Mror Dwarf that approved you for that incredibly complex loan agreement can very well be the same one who shows up at your residence to break your legs after you fail to pay up.
.................................................................................................................................
Moving on...
I don't think that a stat change requires all Dwarves to suddenly become Primal characters. Afterall, Elves survived many editions as the preeminent arcane caster with no Intelligence bonuses.
What we see here is more a theme of religion/spirituality. Dwarves of all kinds, from the most primitive to the most sophistocated, have an inclination towards matters of religion- particularly religions heavy on dogma, rituals, veneration of their ancesters, and patriarchal/matriarchal imagery.
Primal traditions could be seen as reverence for the archetypical Earth Mother, while Divine traditions focus on Moradin, who is the father.
Primal traditions could be seen as reverence for the archetypical Earth Mother, while Divine traditions focus on Moradin, who is the father.
Primal traditions could be seen as reverence for the archetypical Earth Mother, while Divine traditions focus on Moradin, who is the father.
agreed
I've always seen ancestor reverence as a key part of Dwarven society, even in Dwarven cities. This is a clearly primal element (save in Eberron).
The Dwarves of Eberron have spent the majority of their history as warring clans/tribes. It was only after their territory was integrated into the greater Human empire of Galifar that they started on the "civilized" path. In spite of that, they still have strong warrior traditions. There's still a clan or two that continues their berserker warrior ways.
In a more exagerrated form of Northern Europe in our own history, Mror Dwarves were originally a culture oft spoke of for its skalds, beserkers, and penchant for long hair, who eventually became known for their neutrality and mercantile expertise.
The Mror Dwarf that approved you for that incredibly complex loan agreement can very well be the same one who shows up at your residence to break your legs after you fail to pay up.
.................................................................................................................................
Moving on...
I don't think that a stat change requires all Dwarves to suddenly become Primal characters. Afterall, Elves survived many editions as the preeminent arcane caster with no Intelligence bonuses.
What we see here is more a theme of religion/spirituality. Dwarves of all kinds, from the most primitive to the most sophistocated, have an inclination towards matters of religion- particularly religions heavy on dogma, rituals, veneration of their ancesters, and patriarchal/matriarchal imagery.
Primal traditions could be seen as reverence for the archetypical Earth Mother, while Divine traditions focus on Moradin, who is the father.
I meant that Ancestor Worship is Divine in Eberron, while it's Primal in all other settings, not that Dwarves aren't Primal in Eberron…
I've always seen ancestor reverence as a key part of Dwarven society, even in Dwarven cities.
Duskweaver touched on the centrality of ancestor worship too, in the context of 'saints' and exarchs. Moradin is 'grim', wanting self-reliance, and tends not to intervene personally. Likely, it is the saints and exarchs who interceed.
Thus, it is these Dwarven ancestors who were 'assumed' up into the Astral Sea who sustain the Dwarven connections with divine power source. Occasionally, epic Dwarves may 'transfigure' into exarchs themselves and ascend body-and-soul upto the Astral domain. Probably much of the Warpriest prayers involve their Immortal kinfolk to assist their Mortal kinfolk.
Notably, the Dwarf is the only race (besides the less likely Wilden) that excels at the Wis-Con Wrathful Invoker class. Possibly the aloofness of Moradin may avoid imbuing this Immortal power (exept perhaps to those who actively reached him to get this power from him). Probably, the exarchs tend to be the ones who imbue the Invoker essence into certain Dwarven individuals, to carry out specific tasks on behalf of the Dwarven race. Such mortals may have dramatic spiritual experiences, even being taken up into the Astral Sea to stand before the Exarch Beronnar herself who confers the Invoker mantle.
Ancestor reverance is a clearly primal element. Dwarven Shamans commune with the ancestors, while Dwarven clerics offer prayers to Moradin and the other gods.
Of course, ancestor veneration can be primal. But, heh, Im not sure how clear it is. Ancestor veneration can also be divine, as above, where Dwarves commune with their Immortal ancestors who 'assumed' up into the Astral Sea to live among the exarchs. Ancestor veneration could even be shadow, where certain (Nondwarf) cultures 'awaken' the ghosts of their ancestors from the Shadowfell - to me this is the ultimate in creepy despair.
In fact, for primal, Im not clear how the souls of Mortal ancestors 'join' the nature spirits. Where exactly do they go?
Probably the key concept is, the kinship system itself as a living aggregate organism is a primal entity. Thus even if individual members perish, their essence remains a living component of their kinship for as long as the kinship survives.
I would have to say, the 'soul' has different levels of consciousness. When cultures focus on shadow-spirit ghosts, primal-spirit living community, or divine-spirit higher selves, theyr focusing on different levels of consciousness.
Primal traditions could be seen as reverence for the archetypical Earth Mother, while Divine traditions focus on Moradin, who is the father.
agreed
Actually, Moradin strikes me as the archetypical Earth Father. (In some cultures, like ancient Egypt, the Earth is masculine and the Heaven is feminine.)
PH1, 22: 'Moradin is the god of creation and patron of miners and smiths. He carved the mountains from primordial Earth and is the guardian and protector of the hearth and the family.'
He associates with the primordeal Earth, miners, stoneworkers, metalworkers, and gemcutters. He represents the form of the Earth, even if the Primordeals represent the substance.
Moradin also associates with the hearth, as both the fireplace of familylife and the forge of metalworkers. The hearth is another Earth symbol albeit volcanic and geothermal. (In Greek/Roman semantics, the hearth is feminine namely Hestia/Vesta whereas the forge is masculine Hephaistos/Vulcan.)
The Dwarves especially would worship Moradin as an Earth god.
Because Moradin is laissez-faire, even the primal Wild Dwarves can take a 'no hard feelings approach' when relating to Moradin.
Notably primal religions dont really 'worship' anybody. Specifically, they dont obey bureaucratic superiors, who are a phenomenon of urbanized spirituality. There are no 'lords', 'kings', or 'masters'. Sometimes, there may be a kind of cosmic tribal chieftain, female or male, but even this is a fellow family member. Instead, primal religions strive to have good relations with neighboring nature spirits. In this worldview, Wild Dwarves may see Moradin as a distant neighbor and seek a mutual understanding with him.
Note the Dwarf race doesnt excel at the Artificer class. Rather, according to the official fluff, the Runepriest class is explicitly an artificer who forges weapons and armors. Runepriests are the ones who excel at the Dwarven forges. Their craftskill tends to make magic items that are pragmatic and reliable. Dwarves especially make magic items out of metal, plus stone and gems, but products of wood and so on are also known.
I am confident the Essential Gnome will gain the option of either Int-Wis to excel as an illusionist or Int-Con because of the retro D&D tradition where gnomes are tough. [Edit: Either Int;Cha,Wis or Int;Cha,Con.] Either way, the Essential Gnome will excel at the Artificer class and defacto inherit many of the 'dwarf artificer' tropes in addition to the 'gnome tinkerer' tropes. This too is retro because originally D&D dwarves couldnt use the arcane power source, thus it was the gnome who served as a kind of 'arcane dwarf' albeit with respect to illusion only.
The main difference between the Str-Con Dwarf Runepriest forger and an Int-Wis [or Int-Con] Gnome Artificer forger, may be pragmatic versus magically flashy. But clearly the production of many items would overlap.
Alex: Elves survived many editions as the preeminent arcane caster with no Intelligence bonuses.
It is a major goal in this thread to smooth over these kinds of incongruencies, especially incongruencies between flavor and mechanics. I appreciate how 4e has already fixed many of these problems, and it enhances my enjoyment of the D&D game when actual crunch lives up to the claims that the fluff makes.
With regard to the Dwarf, I agree with Havoc and others who see a necessary primal tradition. For the record, these are the primal classes that the Dwarf race *excels* at.
Dwarf primal class build traditions (possible inventor of the class build)
• Str-Con (Goliath) Earth Warden
• Str-Con (Goliath) Storm Warden
• Str-Con (Goliath) Thunderborn Barbarian
• Str-Con (Goliath or Dwarf?) Rageblood Barbarian
• Wis-Con (Dwarf?) Guardian Druid
• Wis-Con (Dwarf?) Swarm Druid
• Wis-Con (Dwarf?) Bear Shaman
• Wis-Con (Dwarf?) 'Snake' Worldspeaker Shaman
Most probably, the Goliath invented the Warden class. The first Warden class build was 'Earth' whose element the Goliath race incarnates. All other builds would ultimately derive from this one. Later, as mountain nomads, certain Goliaths also invented the Storm Warden tradition: the official flavor mentions, 'screaming winds and relentless snows of the highest mountains'. The Essential Dwarf excels at these Warden traditions. There is certainly some kind of Dwarven community who imported these Warden traditions from their mountainous Goliath neighbors and who pass down this tradition from generation to generation.
For my sensibilities, the Giants personify the 'berserker' flavor. However, despite Giants being Mortals of the Middleworld, they generally ally themselves with their Primordeal ancestors, thus make themselves enemies of the primal spirits. Thus any berserker traditions among the Giants, may be elemental and even demonic. The Death Giants may also have shadow berserker traditions.
By contrast, the Barbarian is a primal tradition, which opposes the Primordeals. Probably, the Dragonborn invented the Barbarian class, via the first class build, Str-Cha Thaneborn Barbarian. This class mastered their terrifying and protective draconic nature. From them, the Goliaths adopted the Barbarian tradition, transforming it to form the Str-Con Rageblood Barbarian build, and later under the influence of their Storm Warden tradition forme the Thunderborn Barbarian. The Wild Dwarves adopted and mastered these Goliath Barbarian traditions.
Finally, Dwarves excel at certain Druid and Shaman traditions. Most probably, the Elf race invented the Druid class, via their innovative Wis-Dex Predator Druid build. Ultimately, the primal Dwarves derived their Druid tradition from the primal Elves, but adapted it to form their distinctive Guardian Druid tradition, and later, even their Swarm Druid tradition. The origin of the Shaman class is more obscure, but possibly the Wild Dwarf actually invented this class, with their seminal Bear Shaman build, and later their Snake Shaman build. Apparently, the Wild Dwarves are accomplished and influencial primalists.
There is no way around it. The Dwarves necessarily know about these primal traditions thru their Goliath neighbors and Elven contacts. The Dwarves are necessarily good at these primal traditions and probably even invented some of them. With regard to flavor, it is more difficult to explain why the Dwarves wouldnt be primal, than to simply detail how the Dwarves inevitably flourished at these primal traditions.
Two distinct communities: the divine Fortress Dwarves and the primal Wild Dwarves.
Note the Dwarf race doesnt excel at the Artificer class. Rather, according to the official fluff, the Runepriest class is explicitly an artificer who forges weapons and armors. Runepriests are the ones who excel at the Dwarven forges. Their craftskill tends to make magic items that are pragmatic and reliable. Dwarves especially make magic items out of metal, plus stone and gems, but products of wood and so on are also known.
I am confident the Essential Gnome will gain the option of either Int-Wis to excel as an illusionist or Int-Con because of the retro D&D tradition where gnomes are tough. Either way, the Essential Gnome will excel at the Artificer class and defacto inherit many of the 'dwarf artificer' tropes in addition to the 'gnome tinkerer' tropes. This too is retro because originally D&D dwarves couldnt use the arcane power source, thus it was the gnome who served as a kind of 'arcane dwarf' albeit with respect to illusion only.
The main difference between the Str-Con Dwarf Runepriest forger and an Int-Wis Gnome Artificer forger, may be pragmatic versus magically flashy. But clearly the production of many items would overlap.
Just a minor correction, Gnomes would be Int-Cha, not Int-Wis. However, I support the idea of them getting the Con option, thus becoming good at one of the most "crafty" artificer builds.
Also, great analysis!
Primal traditions could be seen as reverence for the archetypical Earth Mother, while Divine traditions focus on Moradin, who is the father.
agreed
Actually, Moradin strikes me as the archetypical Earth Father. (In some cultures, like ancient Egypt, the Earth is masculine and the Heaven is feminine.)
PH1, 22: 'Moradin is the god of creation and patron of miners and smiths. He carved the mountains from primordial Earth and is the guardian and protector of the hearth and the family.'
He associates with the primordeal Earth, miners, stoneworkers, metalworkers, and gemcutters. He represents the form of the Earth, even if the Primordeals represent the substance.
Moradin also associates with the hearth, as both the fireplace of familylife and the forge of metalworkers. The hearth is another Earth symbol albeit volcanic and geothermal. (In Greek/Roman semantics, the hearth is feminine namely Hestia/Vesta whereas the forge is masculine Hephaistos/Vulcan.)
The Dwarves especially would worship Moradin as an Earth god.
I did not mean to imply that Moardin had no relationship with the earth. On the contrary, I was trying to suggest that if Primal traitions can be considered to focus on the mother-half of the element of Earth, that Moradin would the father-half of the element of Earth.
He does, however, tend to represent the more masculine aspects in terms of his relationship. It is not one characterized by a nurturing or tending nature. Nor does he represent fertility, the bounty of the earth in the form of life, or death.
Moradin's relationship to the earth involves him digging out huge chunks of it and hammering, chiselling, carving, and otherwise shaping it through heavy labor. Regarding his relationship to family and hearth, he is described as its (one would assume rather martial) protector.
It's very much the kind of role one would expect of the father: go out work hard while protecting his family and home.
Furthermore, the idea of the male Moradin taking a tool (phallic imagery) to the form of feminine anthropormization of Earth and producing the Dwarven more works rather well.
The "Earth Parents".
I meant that Ancestor Worship is Divine in Eberron, while it's Primal in all other settings, not that Dwarves aren't Primal in Eberron…
Ah. It's worth noting, however, that when the ECS was written and published, the PHB II and the Primal power source hadn't been revealed yet.
Even in 3E though, the ancestor spirit traditions of the Tairandal Elves included a healthy dose of Druid/Ranger magic. Granted all of that was considered Divine as well in the last edition, but it was still nature-y in... nature.
Aereni elves focused more actually preserving their ancestors so they would still actually physically be alive after thousands of years and less about talking to their spirits.
I did not mean to imply that Moardin had no relationship with the earth. On the contrary, I was trying to suggest that if Primal traitions can be considered to focus on the mother-half of the element of Earth, that Moradin would the father-half of the element of Earth.
He does, however, tend to represent the more masculine aspects in terms of his relationship. It is not one characterized by a nurturing or tending nature. Nor does he represent fertility, the bounty of the earth in the form of life, or death.
Moradin's relationship to the earth involves him digging out huge chunks of it and hammering, chiselling, carving, and otherwise shaping it through heavy labor. Regarding his relationship to family and hearth, he is described as its (one would assume rather martial) protector.
It's very much the kind of role one would expect of the father: go out work hard while protecting his family and home.
Furthermore, the idea of the male Moradin taking a tool (phallic imagery) to the form of feminine anthropormization of Earth and producing the Dwarven more works rather well.
The "Earth Parents".
This I had understood, and for this I gave the cookies: it's a perfect description of the matter from a simple but smart "theological-anthropological" point of view.
Plus, let's not forget that one of the epithets of Moradin is "the All-father", confirming your view completely.
I did not mean to imply that Moardin had no relationship with the earth. On the contrary, I was trying to suggest that if Primal traitions can be considered to focus on the mother-half of the element of Earth, that Moradin would the father-half of the element of Earth.
He does, however, tend to represent the more masculine aspects in terms of his relationship. It is not one characterized by a nurturing or tending nature. Nor does he represent fertility, the bounty of the earth in the form of life, or death.
Moradin's relationship to the earth involves him digging out huge chunks of it and hammering, chiselling, carving, and otherwise shaping it through heavy labor. Regarding his relationship to family and hearth, he is described as its (one would assume rather martial) protector.
It's very much the kind of role one would expect of the father: go out work hard while protecting his family and home.
Furthermore, the idea of the male Moradin taking a tool (phallic imagery) to the form of feminine anthropormization of Earth and producing the Dwarven more works rather well.
The "Earth Parents".
This I had understood, and for this I gave the cookies: it's a perfect description of the matter from a simple but smart "theological-anthropological" point of view . . . .
uh . . . ditto. =)
Just a minor correction, Gnomes would be Int-Cha, not Int-Wis. However, I support the idea of them getting the Con option, thus becoming good at one of the most "crafty" artificer builds.
I meant, the Essentialized Gnome will probably be Int;Wis,Cha (because of the Essential Int-Wis Illusion Mage Wizard) or else be Int;Con,Cha (because of the tough gnome tradition). Whether they get the additional choice of Int-Wis or Int-Con, the Gnome will be an exemplary Artificer.
Also, great analysis!
I was trying to suggest that if Primal traitions can be considered to focus on the mother-half of the element of Earth, that Moradin would the father-half of the element of Earth.
Got it. I understand your gender division of the 'Earth Parents', but it may still need some sorting out. Here are some concerns.
• The Dwarf race seems to lack gender division. A female is just as likely to be a hard-working manual laborer, artisan, clan chief, priest, or king as a male is. Oppositely, a male is probably just as nurturing a parent or friend as a female is - for a gruff Dwarf anyway - Im sure even a Dwarf mother can be stern and taciturn. The archetypical Berronar is famous for her 'whithering gaze'. Likely both males and females reserve warmth for family members, whether born or adopted. I doubt Dwarves care if the gods gender-divide Earthy activities.
• There doesnt seem to be an Earth Mother. According to the canonical options, the defaulting Immortal seems to be Melora who more specifically promotes the wilderness in opposition to civilization. Her interests represent the wildlife of both the earth and sea. Her savagery is hardly 'nurturing'.
• The Wild Dwarves wouldnt worship any god, male or female. Being outside the primal plane, all Immortals would seem remote. Even so, Wild Dwarves probably acknowledge Moradin as the creator of their race, and appreciate the activities of Melora on behalf of wildlife.
• That said, the Wild Dwarves could view the Primal Beast as as Earth Mother. Im not sure gender really matters, but it would be a truism, all creatures would be born from her womb and at death all creatures would return to her.
Just a minor correction, Gnomes would be Int-Cha, not Int-Wis. However, I support the idea of them getting the Con option, thus becoming good at one of the most "crafty" artificer builds.
I meant, the Essentialized Gnome will probably be Int;Wis,Cha (because of the Essential Int-Wis Illusion Mage Wizard) or else be Int;Con,Cha (because of the tough gnome tradition). Whether they get the additional choice of Int-Wis or Int-Con, the Gnome will be an exemplary Artificer.Also, great analysis!I was trying to suggest that if Primal traitions can be considered to focus on the mother-half of the element of Earth, that Moradin would the father-half of the element of Earth.
Got it. I understand your gender division of the 'Earth Parents', but it may still need some sorting out. Here are some concerns.
• The Dwarf race seems to lack gender division. A female is just as likely to be a hard-working manual laborer, artisan, clan chief, priest, or king as a male is. Oppositely, a male is probably just as nurturing a parent or friend as a female is - for a gruff Dwarf anyway - Im sure even a Dwarf mother can be stern and taciturn. The archetypical Berronar is famous for her 'whithering gaze'. Likely both males and females reserve warmth for family members, whether born or adopted. I doubt Dwarves care if the gods gender-divide Earthy activities.
• There doesnt seem to be an Earth Mother. According to the canonical options, the defaulting Immortal seems to be Melora who more specifically promotes the wilderness in opposition to civilization. Her interests represent the wildlife of both the earth and sea. Her savagery is hardly 'nurturing'.
• The Wild Dwarves wouldnt worship any god, male or female. Being outside the primal plane, all Immortals would seem remote. Even so, Wild Dwarves probably acknowledge Moradin as the creator of their race, and appreciate the activities of Melora on behalf of wildlife.
• That said, the Wild Dwarves could view the Primal Beast as a (not necessarily humanoid?) Earth Mother. Im not sure gender really matters, but it would be a truism, all creatures would be born from her womb and at death all creatures would return to her.
I only speak of the "Earth Mother" concept in the context of Dwarves and Primal/anamist traditions because up until around 4E, the two really haven't met up that often. Even in 4E, there really isn't much said on the subject.
As such, there's going to be little, if anything to suggest anything in that regard. It necessitates making things up.
In the idea I was going with, I wouldn't imagine worship of the Earth Mother (more of a philosophical concept, not an actual deity) to be as popular or widespread as worship of Moradin. It would be much older, back when the Dwarves would originally a matriarchal society that revered the land, wizened mothers, and a pragmatic view of life/death. I'd agree with you in that there would be little knowledge of the gods, but primal spirits abound in the Material Plane, and would make sense for the relgiously inclined Dwarves to latch on to.
Then, somewhere along the lines in myth/history, Moradin rises to prominence in Dwarven society. Being a god of the forge, he brings them technology and civilization and being male, this change also brings with it rising traditions of patriarchal authority.
A fundamental shift occurs where most Dwarven society follows Moardin and while females still hold some power, they generally do so by displaying masculine qualities. You have to be stoic and tough, like fighting, grow a long beard if you can. Where did the joke about there being no female Dwarves come from? The fact that they all have to act like males to get anywhere in life.
While she still retains her place in myth as the progenitor of the Dwarven people, veneration of the concept of the earth mother and traditions associated with her are much less common in "civilized" dwarven society. It's considered an ancient practice of a bygone age. Referenced in myth, songs, and poetry or invoked in certain ceremonies like marriage or the blessings of a newborn child, but not widely practiced.
There are, however, some places where the traditions continue to be past on. This is even more common in rural or more primitive Dwarven societies, where worship of Moradin never grew to dominate so much.
I'm trying to draw upon classical myth where the mother deity of the world is overcome by the more martial (and often civilized) male deity that resides in the sky. Zues and Gaia. Marduk and Tiamat. Or the (supposed?) Mother Godesses of many pagan faiths that were eventually subsumed into the patriarchal Christian belief systems.
What with the whole primordial/god/titanomancy bit, I figured this would be a fairly good fit.
In the larger scheme of things, I wanted to provide precedent for Dwarven primal characters if one wanted it: it represents a long standing, yet increasingly less popular religious tradition amongst their people. It highlights their prelidiction towards religion and spirituality. And I don't want to sound sexist, but I find a lot of female players enjoy the Primal classes (or at least nature themed characters) and a lot of female players find Dwarves relatively less appealing (I mean they have traditionally been very masculine), so perhaps playing up the Dwarf/Primal power bit can make them more attractive options.
Melora works fine too. Even better, Melora could be the deity used to slowly convert Dwarves who still continue to venerate the concept of the Earth Mother over to proper worship of the gods. If not protrayed in some way as the same entity as the Earth Mother, maybe she could be presented as Moradin's proper heavenly wife.
Again, trying to draw of some parrallels here- like how in some stories Adam was originally paired up with Lillith, but when she prioved to be too independent, headstrong, and quarrelsome for him to dominate, they ditched her for the more obedient and god-fearing Eve.
The "Earth Mother" concept in the context of Dwarves and Primal, there really isn't much said on the subject. It necessitates making things up.
In this thread, its important to stay true to canon, but wherever the canon is silent, its ok to fill it with whatever makes sense.
Worship of the Earth Mother (more of a philosophical concept, not an actual deity) [wouldnt] be as widespread as worship of Moradin. The [Wild] Dwarves would [be] a matriarchal society that revered the land, wizened mothers, and a pragmatic view of life/death.
Seems fine, the Wild Dwarves call the Primal Beast their 'Earth Mother'. She could appear as a Dwarf female elder (a crone) but be a shapeshifter. Sometimes she appears as a beautiful young woman, and sometimes as young girl. Very often she takes the form of a savage animal, especially a bear, which is a prominent totem among the Dwarf Shamans and Druids.
I'd agree with you, there would be little knowledge of the gods, but primal spirits abound in the Material Plane, and would make sense for the relgiously inclined Dwarves to latch on to.
Yeah. Makes sense to me. In the same way the urban 'Fortress Dwarves' seem to have a special interest in the exarchs and saints, the Wild Dwarves would have a special interest is certain primal spirits. They would probably consider these primal spirits as forming their own 'clan' but actual members of the Dwarf tribe, thus part of the Dwarf family. Then the Wild Dwarves would revere these totem spirits as elders, similar to the way the Wild Dwarves revere Dwarven ancestors.
Moradin rises to prominence in Dwarven society. Being a god of the forge, he brings them technology, and civilization, and being male, [he] also brings with it rising traditions of patriarchal authority. A fundamental shift occurs, where most Dwarven society follows Moardin and while females still hold some power, they generally do so by displaying masculine qualities. You have to be stoic and tough, like fighting, grow a long beard if you can. The fact that they all have to act like males to get anywhere in life.
Theres a lot of truth to what your saying. In some way, Dwarf women are 'masculine' in the sense they do the same jobs men do, especially fighting as warriors and leading as clan elders and priests. The Dwarf women are always tough and often strong.
Theres is even a sense, the Fortress Dwarves have no mothers while the Wild Dwaves have no fathers. The Fortress Dwarves call Moradin their father, but he actually created the Dwarf race from marble statues that he brought to life - without a mother birthe them. Oppositely, the Wild Dwarves have call the Earth Mother their mother, from whose womb all life springs and to whom all life returns. There is no male that inseminates her; she simply generates life. Wild herds simply appear for Dwarf hunters and fruit trees simply swell for Dwarf gatherers: the Earth Mother gives birth to all.
That said, in D&D 4e, the Dwarven women tend to be sexy with an hourglass shape, attractive, and feminine. (LOL! No beards!) In the Fortress Dwarf society, it is, women and men do the same jobs, so whether an individual is masculine or feminine is irrelevant to the job, just like whether the individual has blue eyes or brown eyes is irrelevant.
Still, all Fortress Dwarves value stoicism, so both women and men tend to be sober and practical.
While she still retains her place in myth as the progenitor of the Dwarven people.
For the sake of canon, the Wild Dwarves probably acknowledge that Moradin created their race, but they may see the 'living soul' that animated the statues of Dwarves as coming from the Earth Mother.
I'm trying to draw upon classical myth where the mother deity of the world is overcome by the more martial (and often civilized) male deity.
Yeah, paleolithic versus neolithic. Especially with Moradin being a war god, albeit strictly in the sense of self-defense, as a 'protector' of home and hearth. However, Moradin seems to represent a more earlier phase - before the Bronze Age. Even tho the Dwarves have Fortress cities, they are strictly clannish and arent urban in the sense of being multicultural. The significance is, when violent urbanization enters an aggressive predatory economy, then empires arise. Empires conquer foreign cultures, thus becoming multicultural and ultimately breaking down the mono-cultural tribal way of life. Worse, the empires recruit foreign soldiers to fight in the imperial army. Because the empires own women arent even needed to give birth to soldiers - since the empire can just take soldiers from other peoples - this along with other factors causes the status of women to plummet. As a rule women become politically irrelevant in empires. (Nevertheless, occasionally an individual woman seizes power by effectively becoming a man.) Importantly, Fortress Dwarves dont belong to this pattern. Presumably the 'Dwarven empires' consist entirely of fellow Dwarves, who organize along clan alliances. They have sacred armies, but dont actually use these armies to conquer and obsorb other races. Basically, they are an 'unchanging' 'dont push me' race.
The standing Dwarf armies have existed since their liberation from slavery, so as to never become slaves again, but also to prevent the aggressive expansion of other races from eroding Dwarf culture.
And I don't want to sound sexist, but I find a lot of female players enjoy the Primal classes (or at least nature themed characters) and a lot of female players find Dwarves relatively less appealing (I mean they have traditionally been very masculine), so perhaps playing up the Dwarf/Primal power bit can make them more attractive options.
Emphasizing a matriarchal hunter-gatherer culture among the Wild Dwarves could help increase the female fanbase.
Did you have in mind to gender-divide the Wild Dwarves? If so, you would have the males forming the 'masculine' hunters, and the females forming the 'feminine' gatherers. However there would still be a minority of women who choose to become hunters, and a minority of men who choose to become gatherers.
There would be no 'fathers'. The masculine group would return from their hunting and reunite with the feminine group. The clan would celebrate by taking on various sexual partners. The most appealing women tend to have the most male partners. There would be no knowledge of or concern for which male was the one to fertilize the ovum. Months later, the women give birth, and these mothers are the only parents. Once boys enter puberty, they become 'men' and join the hunter group. (Again, at this age, some girls feel the conviction to join the hunters, and some boys feel the conviction to remain with the gatherers. The tribal spiritual leaders would advise the outcome.)
All children obey their mothers - and this is how the matriarchy happens without any violence. Women remain at the center of the clan society, while the men dash back-and-forth on hunting expeditions. The women tend to decide what the whole clan will do. The women obey their own mothers and generally defer to their clans eldest mother, but also negotiate among fellow clans women. Whatever these women decide as group always happens - because every man in the hunting party will obey the one woman who his mother.
The Goliaths may share the same matriarchal culture that the Wild Dwarf does.
Melora works fine too. Even better, Melora could be the deity used to slowly convert Dwarves who still continue to venerate the concept of the Earth Mother over to proper worship of the gods. If not protrayed in some way as the same entity as the Earth Mother, maybe she could be presented as Moradin's proper heavenly wife.
Heh. Thats pretty clever. The Fortress Dwarves use their wilderness god Melora as a way to relate to the Wild Dwarves.
Its probably fine if the *Fortress Dwarves* portray the Fortress Moradin and the Wild Melora as spouses, or at least as consorts - tho they cant have an easy relationship!
As a whole, their culture isn't as rooted in one place as Dwarf and Eladrin. Halfling culture seems to be centered on small river-going clans that wander the waterways of the world. Halfling tales tend to emphasize trickery and self-reliance in their heroes; halflings have never been about traveling in large groups. In that sense, halflings are more individualistic than dwarves or eladrin are.
The patron goddess of the halflings is Avandra, who is said to have blessed the halflings with good fortune. As such, halflings also tend to be gamblers, in the sense that they're more willing to take risks.
The first archetype to spring to mind is the Halfling Rogue. Halfling Rogues tend to favor being artful dodgers, master thieves who dance around their foe's every move with a jibe for good measure.
The halfling sorcerer also makes sense if you look at it from the point of view that halflings tend to be individualistic. Sorcerers are all about mastering the power that spontaneously comes from within their blood. The Wild Sorcerer in particular seems to fit well, since their powers are all about now knowing what comes next. It's a risk, and Avandra encourages risk-taking.
The Assassin and the Warlock, both classes that halflings can do well in (all builds, even) seem to make little sense. After all, why would an individualist place themselves in the debt of a higher power? Again, all one has to do is twist the perspective. Halflings are making a calculated risk when entering a Warlock's contract or selling their soul to the Shadowfell. I'd imagine there are halfling tales where the hero enters these pacts, only the swindle their patron out of his magic power, keeping both his soul and the powers.
And finally, Dex/Con makes Halflings excellent Battleminds and Monks. The harrier battlemind build makes sense as a halfling specialty, since harriers are all about positioning and trickery. It's easy to imagine a halfling harrier specializing in teleportation constantly moving around the foe, taking advantage of his small size to deal with the foe. The Iron Soul monk focuses on using commonly-found weapons, so it makes sense that early psionically-gifted halflings might have been among the first practitioners of this art, not knowing of any other way to use their strange powers but channeling them through the weapons their people used to defend themselves on the waterway.
Anyway, food for thought.
Halflings are river nomads who travel the waterway trade routes of the Mortal World. Since ancient times, they journey in a flotilla of boats and barges, briefly docking at the settlements of the other races along the way. They meet up with other flotillas to connect a vast trade network that transports commodities to far-flung markets. They also send out special couriers. The Halflings specialize in valuables that they can carry on their person so as to secure them by means of stealth, but they also finagle the shipment of bulkier commodities, sometimes employing other races. Halflings enjoy a prosperous merchant empire and also form the hub of an interracial criminal network. They often mediate between legal authorities and crime lords. Their smuggling operations are legendary. Gambling is a racial passtime, and their casino-boats flaunt extravagant elegance. Traditionally, they camp seasonally around dry mounds in the wetlands, rigging their vessels to form floating villages, where they hunt swamp beasts for sport. But in recent times, many have settled down in the Human towns along the riverbanks and sea coasts. Some have turned to shipping goods across land or pirating on the open seas, and can be found almost anywhere. Halflings emulate the mannerisms of the cultures that they visit. Most now bind their fate with the success of the Human race. Halflings tend to see their own clannish traditions as ‘old fashioned’, and these days, their society tends to organize into territorial gangs that can even include members of other races. Above all else, Halflings are thrill-seekers, who care deeply about good luck, and believe having fun is the highest spiritual value.
The Rogue class is an urban martial tradition. The Halfling merchants invented it with their original Dex-Cha Trickster tradition for sleight-of-hand, stealth, and self-defense to transport their valuables across dangerous trade routes. Of course, to smuggle too. The Halfling couriers ambush any threats that board their boats, then gang together to efficiently eliminate them one at a time. The Halflings revel in their martial tradition, and their master Rogues enjoy celebrity status. Among Human settlements, a certain Halfling gang modified their Trickster tradition to develop their Aerialist style for streetfighting and burglary.
Early on, the Changeling race adopted the Halfling Rogue traditions while mimicking them, but today Halflings - because of their racial tolerance and criminal connections - tend to be the only race that the Changelings reveal themselves openly to. By accident of history, the xenophobic Kenku learned these Halfling Rogue tradition thru Changeling mimics among them, even before the Kenku established formal criminal ties with the Halflings. The Kenku also adapted a Ruthless Ruffian style. It was Half-Orc members of a certain Halfling gang who innovated the bloody Dex-Str Brawny Rogue tradition with its Brutal Scoundrel tactic. Even in the remote wilderness, the reclusive Shadow Elves developed their Dex-Int Shadowy Rogue tradition with its Cunning Sneak tactic from the Halfling Rogue tradition thru their trade with them among mountainous streams. In turn some Halflings make a Dex-Cha variant of the Elven Shadowy tradition their own.
Notably, the most ancient Halfling martial tradition, the Hunter Ranger especially for hunting swamp beasts, they learned from Gnolls.
Halfling criminal gangs tend to be mercenary, and some specialize in assassination. Some of these have embraced death cults. The first ones strategically sought out the Shadowfell techniques of the Dex-Cha Night Stalker Assassin from the Drow, and even a Dex-Con Bleak Disciple variant from the Gnolls. These Halfling Assassins proved deadly successful and widely feared. Most Halflings tend toward superstitious, and these ghostly cultists spook them. Yet the Halflings cant help but view these fellows turned Assassins with a mixture of fear and fascination, even amusing themselves with the simultaneity of loathing and pride.
Not so long ago, Halfling individuals apprenticed themselves in Human academies that study the psionic traditions of various races. Today Halfling psionic traditions flourish. They propagate the Dex-Con Iron Soul Monk tradition, and even adapted their own traditions of the Cha-Dex Impetuous Ardent and the Con-Dex Harrier Battlemind. Most large gangs include a few psionic members. There are even gangs that are exclusively psionic, that call themselves ‘schools’, where Halfling members prefer to teach and learn these mental techniques on the streets, rather than glazing over academic tomes. The Halfling race admires these psionicists as ‘cool’.
Despite their trafficking in magic items, Halflings tend to avoid the arcane arts. The notable exceptions are the instinctive traditions of the Cha-Dex Storm Sorcerer and especially in the Human towns the Wild Sorcerer. The merchants employ these Sorcerers for many jobs, ranging from appraising magic items to delivering them. Likewise, criminals employ them. Sorcerer-only gangs sometimes gain infamy for their joy of wanton destruction.
The Halfling race tends to be irreverent, if not irreligious. They have little patience for pompous pronouncements or theoretical ideologies. Nevertheless, Halflings care deeply about good luck and tend to embrace whimsical superstitions. On impulse, they may participate in divine rituals for luck or ‘just in case’, or if it seems like fun. Fun is the highest spiritual goal. Whether as Rogues getting away with an outrageous exploit or as Battleminds blurring around enemies, the Halfling race delights in the thrill.
Great stuff, Ventnor. Heres my take on the Halfling.
Halflings are river nomads who travel the waterway trade routes of the Mortal World. Since ancient times, they journey in a flotilla of boats and barges, briefly docking at the settlements of the other races along the way. They meet up with other flotillas to connect a vast trade network that transports commodities to far-flung markets. They also send out special couriers. The Halflings specialize in valuables that they can carry on their person so as to secure them by means of stealth, but they also finagle the shipment of bulkier commodities, sometimes employing other races. Halflings enjoy a prosperous merchant empire and also form the hub of an interracial criminal network. They often mediate between legal authorities and crime lords. Their smuggling operations are legendary. Gambling is a racial passtime, and their casino-boats flaunt extravagant elegance. Traditionally, they camp seasonally around dry mounds in the wetlands, rigging their vessels to form floating villages, where they hunt swamp beasts for sport. But in recent times, many have settled down in the Human towns along the riverbanks and sea coasts. Some have turned to shipping goods across land or pirating on the open seas, and can be found almost anywhere. Halflings emulate the mannerisms of the cultures that they visit. Most now bind their fate with the success of the Human race. Halflings tend to see their own clannish traditions as ‘old fashioned’, and these days, their society tends to organize into territorial gangs that can even include members of other races. Above all else, Halflings are thrill-seekers, who care deeply about good luck, and believe having fun is the highest spiritual value.
The Rogue class is an urban martial tradition. The Halfling merchants invented it with their original Dex-Cha Trickster tradition for sleight-of-hand, stealth, and self-defense to transport their valuables across dangerous trade routes. Of course, to smuggle too. The Halfling couriers ambush any threats that board their boats, then gang together to efficiently eliminate them one at a time. The Halflings revel in their martial tradition, and their master Rogues enjoy celebrity status. Among Human settlements, a certain gang modified their Trickster tradition to develop their Aerialist style for streetfighting and burglary.
Early on, the Changeling race adopted the Halfling Rogue traditions while mimicking them, but today Halflings - because of their racial tolerance and criminal connections - tend to be the only race that the Changelings reveal themselves openly to. By accident of history, the xenophobic Kenku learned these Halfling Rogue tradition thru Changeling mimics among them, even before the Kenku established formal criminal ties with the Halflings. The Kenku also adapted a Ruthless Ruffian style. It was Half-Orc members of a certain Halfling gang who innovated the bloody Dex-Str Brawny Rogue tradition with its Brutal Scoundrel tactic. Even in the remote wilderness, the reclusive Shadow Elves developed their Dex-Int Shadowy Rogue tradition with its Cunning Sneak tactic from the Halfling Rogue tradition thru their trade with them among mountainous streams. In turn some Halflings make a Dex-Cha variant of the Elven Shadowy tradition their own.
Notably, the most ancient Halfling martial tradition, the Hunter Ranger especially for hunting swamp beasts, they learned from Gnolls.
Halfling criminal gangs tend to be mercenary, and some specialize in assassination. Some of these have embraced death cults. The first ones strategically sought out the Shadowfell techniques of the Dex-Cha Night Stalker Assassin from the Drow, and even a Dex-Con Bleak Disciple variant from the Gnolls. These Halfling Assassins proved deadly successful and widely feared. Most Halflings tend toward superstitious, and these ghostly cultists spook them. Yet the Halflings cant help but view these fellows turned Assassins with a mixture of fear and fascination, even amusing themselves with the simultaneity of loathing and pride.
Not so long ago, Halfling individuals apprenticed themselves in Human academies that study the psionic traditions of various races. Today Halfling psionic traditions flourish. They propagate the Dex-Con Iron Soul Monk tradition, and even adapted their own traditions of the Cha-Dex Impetuous Ardent and the Con-Dex Harrier Battlemind. Most large gangs include a few psionic members. There are even gangs that are exclusively psionic, that call themselves ‘schools’, where Halfling members prefer to teach and learn these mental techniques on the streets, rather than glazing over academic tomes. The Halfling race admires these psionicists as ‘cool’.
Despite their trafficking in magic items, Halflings tend to avoid the arcane arts. The notable exceptions are the instinctive traditions of the Cha-Dex Storm Sorcerer and to some degree the Wild Sorcerer. The merchants employ these Sorcerers for many jobs, ranging from appraising magic items to delivering them. Likewise, criminals employ them. Sorcerer-only gangs sometimes gain infamy for their joy of wanton destruction.
The Halfling race tends to be irreverent, if not irreligious. They have little patience for pompous pronouncements or theoretical ideologies. Nevertheless, Halflings care deeply about good luck and tend to embrace whimsical superstitions. On impulse, they may participate in divine rituals for luck or ‘just in case’, or if it seems like fun. Fun is the highest spiritual goal. Whether as Rogues getting away with an outrageous exploit or as Battleminds blurring around enemies, the Halfling race delights in the thrill.
i enjoyed reading this
i enjoyed reading this
ARCHEOLOGY OF RACIAL TRADITIONS
DWARF
Dwarf Divine Traditions
Wis-Con Dwarf Cleric Warpriest (Patron Moradin) < Dwarf
Str-Con Runepriest Wrathful Hammer (Patron Runes) < Dwarf
Wis-Con Dwarf Invoker Malediction (Patron Runes) < Dwarf Invoker Wrathful (Patron Exarchs) < Wis-Int Deva Invoker Preserving (Patron Bahamut) < Deva
Wis-Con Invoker Wrathful (Patron Exarchs) < Wis-Int Deva Invoker Preserving (Patron Bahamut) < Deva
Str-Con Dwarf Paladin Unofficial-Build (Patron Exarchs) < Str-Cha Dragonborn Paladin Avenger (Patron Bahamut) < Dragonborn
Dwarf Martial Traditions
Str-Con Fighter Knight (Axe or Hammer) < Dwarf Fighter Battlerager < Giant Fighter Battlerager < Giant
Str-Con Dwarf Fighter Greatweapon < Giant Fighter Greatweapon < Giant
Str-Con Dwarf Fighter Battlerager < Giant Fighter Battlerager < Giant
Dwarf Weapons
Forge Mallet > Hammer One-Handed (Warhammer, Throwing Hammer) > Hammer Two-Handed (Mordencrad, Maul)
Sculpting Chisel > Axe One-Handed (Battleaxe, Waraxe, Throwing Handaxe) > Axe Two-Handed (Double Urgrosh, Execution Axe, Greataxe)
Dwarf Primal Traditions
Wis-Con Guardian Druid (Bear) < Wis-Dex Elf Predator Druid (Panther) < Elf
Wis-Con Dwarf Swarm Druid < Dwarf Guardian Druid < Wis-Dex Elf Predator Druid < Elf
Str-Con Dwarf Earth Warden < Goliath Earth Warden < Goliath
Str-Con Dwarf Storm Warden < Goliath Storm Warden < Goliath Earth Warden < Goliath
Str-Con Dwarf Rageblood Barbarian < Goliath Rageblood Barbarian < Goliath Thunderborn Barbarian < Goliath
Str-Con Dwarf Thunderborn Barbarian < Goliath Thunderborn Barbarian < Goliath
Dwarf Psionic Traditions
Con-Wis Dwarf Resilient Battlemind < Wilden Resilient Battlemind < Wilden
DROW
Drow Divine Traditions
Wis-Cha? Drow Cleric Devoted (Patron Lolth) < Wis-Con Dwarf Cleric Warpriest (Patron Moradin) < Dwarf
Cha-Wis? Drow Paladin Virtuous (Patron Lolth) < Str-Cha Dragonborn Paladin Avenging (Patron Bahamut) < Dragonborn
Drow Arcane Traditions
Cha-Dex Drow Sorcerer Wild < Drow
Cha-Dex Drow Sorcerer Storm < Drow Sorcerer Wild < Drow
Cha-Wis? Drow Bard Prescient < Cha-Int Eladrin Bard Cunning < Eladrin
Note: Drow Dex fails to excel at Warlock Dark
< Cha-Int Eladrin Warlock Fey < Eladrin Warlock Infernal < Tiefling Warlock Infernal < Tiefling
Drow Martial Traditions
Dex-Cha Drow Rogue Aerialist < Halfling Rogue Aerialist < Halfling Rogue Trickster < Halfling
Dex-Cha Drow Rogue Trickster < Halfling Rogue Trickster < Halfling
Drow Shadow Traditions
Dex-Cha Drow Assassin Night Walker < Drow
Drow Psionic Traditions
Cha-Wis? Drow Ardent Enlightened < Kalashtar Ardent Enlightened < Kalashtar
ELADRIN
Eladrin Arcane Traditions
Int-Cha Eladrin Wizard Mage < Eladrin
Int-Cha Eladrin Wizard Mage Enchanter < Eladrin Wizard Mage < Eladrin
Int-Dex Eladrin Wizard Wand < Int-Cha Eladrin Wizard Mage < Eladrin
Int-Cha Eladrin Wizard Illusionist < Gnome Wizard Illusionist < Gnome Wizard Mage Illusionist < Gnome Wizard Mage < Eladrin Wizard Mage < Eladrin
Cha-Int Eladrin Bard Cunning < Eladrin
Int-Dex Eladrin Swordmage Bladesinger? < Eladrin
Cha-Int Eladrin Warlock Fey < Eladrin Warlock Infernal < Tiefling Warlock Infernal < Tiefling
Eladrin Psionic Traditions
Int-Cha Eladrin Psion Telepath < Shardmind Psion Telepath < Shardmind
Int-Cha Eladrin Psion Shaper < Eladrin Psion Telepath < Shardmind Psion Telepath < Shardmind
Eladrin Martial Traditions
Dex-Int Eladrin Rogue Shadowy < Shadow Elf Rogue Shadowy < Dex-Cha Halfling Rogue Trickster < Halfling
ELF
Elf Primal Traditions
Wis-Dex Druid Predatory (Panther) < Elf
Wis-Dex Seeker Vengeful < Elf
Elf Martial Traditions
Dex-Int Shadow Elf Rogue Shadowy < Dex-Cha Halfling Rogue Trickster < Halfling
Dex-Wis Shadow Elf Ranger Archer < Shadow Elf
Elf Psionic Traditions
Dex-Wis Elf Monk Centered < Githzerai Monk Centered < Githzerai
Elf Arcane Traditions
Int-Dex Elf Swordmage Bladesinger? < Eladrin Swordmage Bladesinger? < Eladrin
Int-Dex Elf Wizard Wand < Eladrin Wizard Wand < Eladrin Wizard Mage < Eladrin
Note: Elf Dex fails to excel at Wizard Mage
< Int-Cha Eladrin Wizard Mage < Eladrin
HALFLING
Halfling Martial Traditions
Dex-Cha Halfling Rogue Trickster < Halfling
Dex-Cha Halfling Rogue Aerialist < Rogue Trickster < Halfling
Dex-Cha Halfling Rogue Cutthroat < Kenku Rogue Cutthroat < Halfling Rogue Trickster < Halfling
Dex-Con Halfling Ranger Hunter < Dex-Int Shadow Elf Ranger Archer < Shadow Elf
Halfling Psionic Traditions
Con-Dex Halfling Battlemind Harrier < Con-Wis Wilden Battlemind Resiliant < Wilden
Cha-Dex Halfling Ardent Impetuous < Cha-Wis Kalashtar Ardent Enlightened < Kalashtar
Dex-Con Halfling Monk Iron Soul < Dex-Wis Githzerai Monk Centered < Githzerai
Halfling Shadow Traditions
Dex-Cha Halfling Assassin Night Walker < Drow Assassin Night Walker < Drow
Dex-Con Halfling Assassin Bleak Disciple < Gnoll Assassin Bleak Disciple < Dex-Cha Drow Assassin Night Walker < Drow
Halfling Arcane Traditions
Dex-Cha Halfling Sorcerer Storm < Drow Sorcerer Storm < Drow Sorcerer Wild < Drow
Dex-Cha Halfling Sorcerer Wild < Drow Sorcerer Wild < Drow
i enjoyed reading this
Further on the Dwarf. The Dwarves excel at the Malediction Invoker. The flavor of this class build lists 'divine words' as the Invokers essence of power. In other words, this class can specifically refer to 'divine runes' as the divine power source. Thus, Dwarf Malediction Invokers specialize on the 'Wisdom' (mystical-theoretical linguistics) of rune magic, while the Runepriests focus on the 'Strengh' (pragmatic-applied crafting) aspects of rune magic.
Reconsidering the Halfling. The Halflings probably invented the Hunter Ranger build, adapting it from the Shadow Elf Archer Ranger Build, around the same time the Shadow Elf adapted their Shadowy Rogue build from the Halfling Trickster Rogue build - via their trade contacts.
Personally, I don't like this train of thought.
A build doesn't belong to a specific race or fighting style. The only case where they've ever mentioned this sort of thing is with the two Assassins builds in DDi, and I felt very uncomfortable with that.
Genasi and Eladrin can both invent a swordmage style of fighting we define as the Assault Swordmage build independantly. A build doesn't represent a cultural history of a fighting style, in my opinion, but rather a thematic way of understanding a class. There are Knights of all cultures and races; it wasn't a Knightly Order that first appeared in Humans and then spread to the other races.
Similarly, Dwarven malediction invokers and Wilden malediction invokers would hardly share the same tradition – especially if they worship different deities. Divine characters feel more thematically linked by their deity or domain than by their class, and I doubt that the traditions used by certain classes would spread from one religion to another, rather than developing simultaneously in different faiths.
I'm all in favour of convergent evolution for class builds. We can have Eladrin Paladins who have emulated the virtues and revels of Corellon since time immemorial as being completely separate from the noble Dragonborn Paladins of Bahamut who draw on their rich martial and divine tradition of errantry as examplified by the Silver Dragons and their God, the Platinum Dragon Bahamut; and both of these can be unrelated to the Hellborn Tiefling Paladins devoted to Asmodeus from Bael Turath and emulating the Legion Devils of the Nine Hells.
All of these could represent an Avenging Paladin: the classic, charismatic Knight in Shining Armour with divine grace and power. Yet they're completely unrelated in their origin.
A build represents a specialization within a class. Each class is a set of extremely specific and complex powers. It is statistically improbable there could have been two independent origins for the same class.
Even in the case of the Immortals wielding the divine power source. It appears Bahamut was the first one to invent the Invoker class by investing a Deva with his own divine energy. The rest of the Immortals who invested Invokers got the idea from Bahamut. It is no 'coincidence', these other Invokers have the exact same powers that the Deva Invokers of Bahamut do.
Halflings dont automatically become Trickster Rogues. They must learn how to become one from other Halflings. In the exact same way, the Drow Trickster Rogues learned how to become this ultimately from someone who learned it from a Halfling. That is why Drow Trickster Rogues have the exact same powers that Halfling Trickster Rogues do.
Everything starts somewhere.
A build represents a specialization within a class. Each class is a set of extremely specific and complex powers. It is statistically improbable there could have been two independent origins for the same class.
Even in the case of the Immortals wielding the divine power source. It appears Bahamut was the first one to invent the Invoker class by investing a Deva with his own divine energy. The rest of the Immortals who invested Invokers got the idea from Bahamut. It is no 'coincidence', these other Invokers have the exact same powers that the Deva Invokers of Bahamut do.
Halflings dont automatically become Trickster Rogues. They must learn how to become one from other Halflings. In the exact same way, the Drow Trickster Rogues learned how to become this ultimately from someone who learned it from a Halfling. That is why Drow Trickster Rogues have the exact same powers that Halfling Trickster Rogues do.
No. No they don't. Classes aren't an occupation. It's not what you do. Your build is not speciallised much at all. It's a set of tools to describe a whole slew of different characters that fight in various ways. You don't learn how to be a Trickster Rogue from another Hafling. You learn the tools of being a thief, perhaps, or a con-artist, or you were naturally a trickster and you taught yourself. It's not a tradition of skills, necessarily, especially for the Trickster Rogue which is more likely to be self-taught.
It is VERY unlikely that the first Drow learned to be Trickster Rogues from Haflings. In fact, very few Trickster Rogues exist. Thieves exist; few at all are ever rogues. Similarly, few priests of Lolth are ever Clerics. These are classes for heroes. They describe what you can do. They don't exist, for the most part. Clerical traditions do, but most are just regular priests.
Similarly, most members of Warding Circles aren't Wardens, but primal warrior-guardians.
Yes. Yes, they do.
Classes are a tradition.
Traditions can be formal or informal, covertly secret or cultural well-known. They are a set of skills and technical knowledge that passes down from generation to generation, and from culture to culture.
For a reallife example, Jewish rabbis ultimately descend from Greek philosophers. Their point of cultural contact was in ancient Iraq. There the exiled tribes from the Kingdom of Judea in Israel, the Zoroastrians from the former Persian Empire in Iran, and the Greek Helenists since Alexander the Great were all in the same ancient city of Babylon - and deeply influenced each other. From there, the Diaspora Judeans adapted these Zoroastrian and Helenistic traditions according to their own Southern Canaanite by-then-monotheistic culture to originate the Pharisaic tradition that then spread to the Judeans back home in Israel. Later, when the Romans genocided those in Judea, the Pharisees formed a coalition of leaders among the survivors, becoming the ancient Rabbis of the Mishna legal code, who were then the official leaders of the Jewish people in Galilee during the early Roman Empire. This Rabbinic tradition spread back out to Babylon and flourished, and eventually all the Judean diaspora in Europe, Africa, and Asia came to adopt the Babylonian Talmudic tradition. The Rabbis of today descend from this tradition.
Of course, the details are even more complex, nevermind the influence Jews have had on Zoroastrians, Helenists, and later Greek and Roman Christians.
All traditions start somewhere.
Two questions: is that a typo when you specified "Runes" as the patron of Dwarven malediction Invokers? And why do you think Drow don't excel as Dark Pact Warlocks? I think Cha is enough, after all, the Dark pact also relies on damage to allies fopr empowering its spells.
My Wild Sorcerer Elf may not have the HIGHEST charisma, but he still makes things explode in amusing ways
Good for you. Its important for the default flavor and the default mechanics to make sense. At the same time, players need to be able to build their own personal character concepts.
Great to read the racial traditions archaeology!
Is that a typo when you specified "Runes" as the patron of Dwarven malediction Invokers?
Actually, 'Runes' as the 'patron' of the Malediction Invoker is intentional. When rereading the flavors of the Invoker and the Runepriest, it struck me how similar they are. The Immortals used these 'words of power' to both battle the Primordeals and create the Mortal World. It is the *words* themselves that are the vessel for the divine power source. Moreover these 'words' and 'runes' may be the same thing. Or rather, the runes are a special alphabet for these special words of power, in the Immortal language. The Malediction Invoker flavor hooks up well with the Wrathful Runepriest flavor.
Divine Power: 'Covenant of Malediction: The Malediction Invoker build employs dread words of power to eradicate foes. These words of power come from the gods lexicon, the very words of creation. The words are potent, imperiling health. Malediction Invokers need a high Wisdom to intone the words properly and to piece together the inflections and holy grammar required to use the words in battle. Words of power bear a physical price' so Constitution second highest.'
Players Handbook 3: 'Runepriest: Legend holds the gods crafted powerful runes to help create the world and give it order. During the war against the Primordials, many of these runes were lost. Even the gods only dimly recall the runes of power. Merge the runes of power with your weapons and armor. Channel their might. The runes are your weapons, and the gods foes await your judgment.'
It is easy, to see picture these 'runes' as a special script of power for the words of power by the Immortals in their native language of the Astral Sea. The Dwarf race suits this runic flavor.
Presumably the language of these words and runes are Supernal. Unfortunately neither Malediction Invoker nor the Runepriest automatically gain the Supernal language. It would be nice if they did. Perhaps the language of 'creation' is a special dialect of Supernal, so technical or archaic it doesnt necessarily help speak fluently the Supernal language itself?
In any case, both the Malediction Invoker and the Runepriest would be focusing primarily on the actual words of power. When you speak or writing English, you dont necessarily think about the teachers who taught you the language. Likewise, when wielding words and runes as 'weapons', you focus on the weapon and what your trying to hit. So, really, the runes themselves can be the object of devotion, whence 'patron'.
Heh. There could be a Proto-Supernal.
What if the Gods lost more than just the Lattice the day that the Primordials destroyed it? What if their words of creation were so intertwined with the Lattice that their language was actually sundered when the creation it had become tied to was destroyed.
Just some food for thought.
Great to read the racial traditions archaeology!
Two questions: ... And why do you think Drow don't excel as Dark Pact Warlocks? I think Cha is enough, after all, the Dark pact also relies on damage to allies for empowering its spells.
The mechanics and flavor feel incongruent. By the Dark Pact not benefiting from Dex, the Drow has less distinctive synergy with it. Even worse, Dark powers have riders that require Int, which is irksome because the Drow dont excel at Int. The Dark Pact is actually a Cha-Int build. Only one ability in sync? Its like a race with only one ear invented the tradition of wearing sunglasses. It seems unlikely.
Note, the fluff says, 'The most powerful Dark Pact Warlords are most often Drow' but also 'Humans, Dragonborn', even 'Dwarves'. But this fluff seems unsatisfactory because mechanically the Cha-Int Tiefling, Gnome, Changeling, Shardmind, and Eladrin are strictly 'most powerful'. Even the Cha-Con Half-Elf seems more powerful, since it can benefit from the Warlock stuff that use Con. Mechanically, the Drow pact seems to have nothing to do with the Drow race. One might even guess some Cha-Int Eladrin Warlocks invented the Dark Pact? A number of scenarios come to mind to explain why Eladrin traitors or prisoners would help the Drow acquire such an arcane tradition. Maybe Tiefling slaves did. Its odd Drow arent especially competent at their own tradition. It makes playing an official Drow Dark Warlock disappointing. Its a problematic that can benefit from smoothing over, either errata or explanatory flavor.
Anyway, check this out! The flavor of the Dark Warlock mentions how other races imported and adapted the Dark Pact arcane tradition from the Drow race.
FRPG, 35: ‘Warlock Dark Pact: The Dark Pact created in the Drow cities of the Underdark has gradually moved toward the surface, gaining refinements from warlocks of the surface races. The most powerful Dark Pact Warlocks are most often Drow, but Humans, Dragonborn, Dwarves, and even eladrin have been known to master the dark pact.’
The Dark Pact tradition was created is the Drow culture and moves from racial culture to racial culture. These other races ‘refined’ it.
These class build traditions start in one race and spread to other races.
However, since I am clearly upset with the way Haldrik presents it and vehemently disagree, rather than just cause banter in the works, I'll remove myself from this thread now.
It is my thread, and the wider context of the correpondance between races and classes is on topic. The point is, these new racial ability scores allow the races to be mechanically good at the classes that their flavor says they are good at. The Eladrin race is part of a larger pattern. Other races too benefit from this correspondence, and the comparison is instructive. The races flourish at certain classes. These prominent classes express well the racial flavors. The default flavor and mechanics have beautiful design.
The days of the 3e elf being said to be good at the Wizard class but mechanically werent are over. Or with a certain Dragon article, even 4e Tieflings being good at the Infernal Pact. I am thrilled and grateful.
I love these new racial ability scores. They are a stroke of genius by the designers and developers.
The flavor for the new Essential Mage Wizard class build officially describes a cultural tradition that started in one racial culture and spread to other racial cultures. Certain races pioneered certain 'schools' of magic. For example, the Eladrin pioneered the school of enchantment. From the Eladrin race the enchantment tradition spread to other races. The Mage build represents a multicultural tradition where different races decided to share their magical knowledge. In actual 'academies', these races pool the arcane lore of their respective schools. In the Feywild, these academies advance the arcane prowess of Eladrin by studying the arcane research of other races.
The Essential Mage Wizard, Dragon 389: The ancient traditions of the schools have been handed down since the first mortals began to dabble in arcane magic. What started as techniques and methods of training between masters and apprentices eventually became more institutionalized, and eventually actual academies of arcane study sprang up in the World and the Feywild. Single towers devoted to a single arcane [school] gave way to grand academies where illusion magic was taught alongside evocation magic.
First developed among the Eladrin of the Feywild, spells from the enchantment school can bend a creature’s mind to your will.
The enchantment school of the Mage Wizard class build is a tradition that started in one race and spread to other races.
The class builds can represent actual cultural traditions.
Likely the Drow originally learned the Trickster Rogue tradition from the Halfling race. The FRPG notes, Drow houses typically 'enslave races', presumably including Halflings. To acquire these stealthy Halfling techniques from slaves would give the Drow masters an edge in their highly 'competitive' and 'treacherous' dealings with other Drow. Moreover, certain Drow organize 'trade consortiums'. These Drow merchants would happily do commerce with, even ally themselves with - and gain technical knowledge from - Halfling merchants. Likewise, Halflings are open to other races, even dangerous races can be fun, and would adopt helpful cultural traditions from their Drow contacts.
Also, aren't you accepting friend requests here?
I've sent you one days ago, along with the invitation to the Zendikar - D&D Campaign Setting group ( community.wizards.com/zendikardnd ), where your creativity would be much needed!!Haldrik, I think you should compile all the lore you are producing into an orderly form and put into a blog and/or dedicated thread!
Actually might want to submit it to dragon as well.
Haldrik, I think you should compile all the lore you are producing into an orderly form and put into a blog and/or dedicated thread!
Actually might want to submit it to dragon as well.
I appreciate your encouragements.
There still are some missing pieces to the puzzle. For example, I need to confirm the Drow racial abilities, and find out what Gnomes are. I also need to make sure all the information stays true to the Essential canon, and I dont have these books yet. Fortunately the Dwarf traditions seem fairly stable, and that turned out to be a central race for understanding the transmission of many class build traditions. When the details of the other races are secure, Il present them in a more orderly format.
I havent thought about a dedicated thread, but it sounds like a good idea. I might even drop Dragon magazine a submission to see if their interested in an 'Archeology' article.Also, aren't you accepting friend requests here? I've sent you one days ago, along with the invitation to the Zendikar - D&D Campaign Setting group ( community.wizards.com/zendikardnd ), where your creativity would be much needed!!
You should already have me as a friend. For Zendikar, Im not familiar with the MtG lore, but the setting concept looks cool. Im sure it will inspire me to do something.
I need to confirm the Drow racial abilities.
if drow do not get cha, dex or wis, then i will be stunned and have to start rolling my saving throws . . . until they fix such a travesty of a mistake.
I havent thought about a dedicated blog, but it sounds like a good idea.
fixed
So, the Hexblade is the Essential version of the Warlock.
I like its key abilities: Cha-Con/Dex. Im glad it now lacks Int. The lack helps keep the class concept separate from the scholarly Wizard and explains why the Eladrin wizard culture makes warlockry taboo.
People predicted correctly Cha would be its primary ability. It makes sense and works well.
Cha-Dex Drow Fey Hexblade Warlock
'Feyblade'
The Cha-Dex pairing is excellent. It means for Essentials, the Cha-Dex Fey Hexblade Warlock is now the best class to express the Drow male arcane tradition. (Wel see if a Dark Hexblade Warlock in the Heroes Of Shadow relates to Drow.) If the Drow is quintessentially a Warlock, it additionally explains why the Eladrin shun this class.
Cha-Con Tiefling Infernal Hexblade Warlock
'Hellblade'
The class flavor identifies the Tiefling as the (possible) originator of the Infernal Hexblade. If so, and if its key abilities are Cha-Con, then the Tiefling may well be a Cha-Con/Int race. If I recall correctly, this is a unique racial triad. Thus the Tiefling is a primarily Charismatic race, whose devilish flavor is to seduce and incite others. The influence may be diabolically legal (Cha-Int) or vicerally relentless (Cha-Con).
As for gnomes, we have no idea as to their new stats (if they get any). For all we know, they could be Charisma-based with a choice of Intelligence or Dexterity. This would align them with the fluff, which already depicts them as being good rogues.
In response to your point about the pacts being intelligence-based, I've come around to WotC's thinking - to be a warlock, you don't have to know all that much, you just need to sign on the dotted line. Wuite frequently, the folks who would sign these pacts would be duped by the person offering them power - not a sign of a very intelligent person.
On the subject of the dark pact, once again we do not know what that particular build's stats will be, or whether it will be replaced with another class. For all we know, the dark pact will also be Charisma-Dexterity based, and it would be described in fluff as coming from entities very similar to the Fey (say, Lolth).
It looks like this design philosophy has finally become the new normal. If official fluff ties a class and race together, the designers will make sure they synergize mechanically as well. I appreciate it.
The Starblade seems a bit underpowered, but Im not sure, as the Starshadow Blade looks amazing for a weapon, and I may be overlooking the less obvious implications of some of the powers and features.
Anyway, I love the celestial flavor of the new pact. It is appropriate for the Star Warlocks to take a 'cosmic perspective'. It is surprising this *less selfish* outlook is what makes Eladrin Starlocks outcasts. I need to think about whether I like the sociological implications of that, and it somewhat contradicts an other Dragon article that explained Eladrin Warlocks as somewhat antisocial. Still, the 'cosmic perspective' is interesting, and Im sure it can spin favorably visavis Eladrin society.
One implication is, the Eladrin Star Pact is extremely ancient.
The flavor has the stars unifying all the multiplanes together, via the shared heavens that they have in common. Thus, the discovery of this phenomenon is probably what made Eladrin curious about creatures who exist in other planes. In other words, the Star Pact may preexist the contact between the Eladrin and Human! Very ancient.
The initial plane of interest is the celestial plane of the Astral Sea where their kinfolk dwell with Corellon. Only afterward, did their gaze of arcane interest steer to other worlds, such as the Midworld with the Human.
Thus, Warlockry may be an ancient forgotten art among the Eladrin. Presumably, the art became lost during the war with the Drow, who preserved it, albeit they adapted the Star Pact into the Fey Pact for their new environs. Possibly contemporary Eladrin Starblades either continue an ancient esoteric tradition, or else, they reinvented it recently as part of the scholarly quest to reconstruct the pre-fallen Eladrin civilization. Certain Eladrin sages may have excavated information of some sort during their archeology, and certain students became interested in reinacting the ancient tradition.
This means the ancient Tiefling Infernal Warlocks may actually derive their devilish traditions directly from the ancient Eladrin astrological traditions.
We need to explore more the precise relationship between the origins of the Eladrin Star Pact, Drow Fey Pact, and Tiefling Infernal Pact. Then we need to explain precisely why Eladrin lost and came to distrust warlockry if indeed their Eladrin heritage invented it.
Fun!
Fey,
Drow: Dex-Wis/Cha (a surprise! - Dex-Wis Drow!)
Half-Elf: Con-Wis/Cha (a surprise! - no longer the strictly social race!)
Other origins,
Dragonborn: Cha-Str/Con (so this dragon has terrifying flavor more than seductive serpent flavor)
Tiefling: Cha-Con/Int (whence their Cha-Con Hellblade)
Half-Orc: Dex-Str/Con (from their Dex-Con Orc parentage)
Drow can now share the same scores as Elf: Dex-Wis. This has enormous implications for the D&D tradition. Per the tradition, Drow females are Clerics and Drow males are Wizards. Now, Drow females will either get some future Wis-Dex Cleric build, or else, they will retcon as Wis-Dex Avengers to continue their divine tradition.
The Forgotten Kingdom may still include a Cleric Domain just for Lolthian Drow. Possibly, it may even be a Wis-Dex build, tho this too would be a surprise. Note, earlier Amazon had some confusion about whether the Forgotten Kingdom included a different Cleric or not. Perhaps adding a new Domain but not a new subclass caused the confusion.
Even tho we were prepared for the possibility of Wis-Dex Drow females, it still surprises. It might turn out to be a nice surprise, since the Drow do seem to make a good Avenger.
Drow males reincarnate their wizardry tradition as the now Fey Hexblade warlockry, and in this way socialize their arcane gender division. Note, the Heroes of Shadow will have a shadow Hexblade build, but this is officially an 'option'. Similarly, Cha-Dex sorcery and Cha-Dex Bardry remain viable channels for the Drow arcane traditions. Nevertheless, the Drow race comes out in the same book as the Fey Warlock: Forgotten Kingdoms. It seems the Essential campaign setting intends the Fey Pact to be the primary channel for the Drow male arcane tradition.
I am truly surprised the Half-Elf will now be a quintessentially TOUGH race. Many have noted the current 'hybrid vigor' flavor. But this will now become the defining concept. Not the social Charisma. Of course, the Half-Elf will be MAGICALLY tough because of the Fey parentage. So dont expect stout mammoth Half-Elf to be lumbering around.
The Wis-Con combo opens some nice Druid flavor that previously only the Dwarf enjoyed. So, expect Wild Dwarf and Wild Half-Elf to hang out with each other, along with the Goliath.
Of course, both the Half-Elf and the Dwarf produce Wis-Con Warpriests now.
Curse you Haldrik, I was already to play a nice Feylock eladrin, then you made that argument about the star pact. Great fiuff there, dang now I don't know which seems cooler to me.
The new abilities for the Drow seem problematic. The choice between either Cha-Dex or Wis-Dex means:
• The male arcane tradition (Cha-Dex Fey Hexblade) produces especially charismatic males.
• The female divine tradition (Wis-Dex Lolth Warpriest) doesnt produce especially charismatic females.
Thus it seems difficult to explain *how* female Drow Clerics can dominate Drow society, when it is the male arcanists who are the more influential leaders.
Female Drow Clerics arent notably charismatic? Female Clerics dont excel at Diplomacy, and dont excel at Intimidation? It is hard to make sense of that.
Charisma and a choice of Dexterity or Wisdom seems more appropriate. This would make females excel at the Wis-Cha Devoted Cleric, being priests who are more like mages and less like warriors, and being innately charismatic.
Or maybe WotC knows how much this bugs you and are intentionally trolling you
.Thus it seems difficult to explain *how* female Drow Clerics can dominate Drow society, when it is the male arcanists who are the more influential leaders.
Female Drow Clerics arent notably charismatic? Female Clerics dont excel at Diplomacy, and dont excel at Intimidation? It is hard to make sense of that.
Easy, to rule Drow society you need to insightful and perceptive. It doesn't matter how good of a deal you broker with the other houses, they are going to backstab you anyways. All you need to know is when they are going to backstab you and how. Also the females dominate because Lloth says so and sends Driders(or something similar) to eat any male that tries to go against her word....you really can't be diplomatic with something like that.
Easy, to rule Drow society you need to insightful and perceptive. It doesn't matter how good of a deal you broker with the other houses, they are going to backstab you anyways. All you need to know is when they are going to backstab you and how.
Ok, assuming wer stuck with the Wis-Dex and Cha-Dex abilities for Drow, lets see how to make the best of it.
Your focus on Wisdom as the ability of Insight to detect betrayal, seems like a good direction. Thus these Drow Clerics arent influencial because they are charismatic leaders. Rather, they are relatively-unappealing seers. The goto people for when someone needs to know if someone remains pragmatically loyal. In other words, the actual leaders of Drow society go these Clerics to hear their oracles. Thus, divination powers may be a notable focus. Of course, being Chaotic Evil Clerics of the demon Lolth, their prophecies always recommend betraying others first, when expedient. However, they also supply pragmatically accurate information about the intentions of others.
So, these Drow Clerics arent leaders themselves, but leaders take their advice to heart, thus they rule indirectly - quietly behind the scenes.
Also the females dominate because Lloth says so and sends Driders(or something similar) to eat any male that tries to go against her word....you really can't be diplomatic with something like that.
The thing is, these Drow Clerics arent even intimidating compared to other Drow. So, they cant even dominate by threats. It seems, their influence derives from their Insight and divination. Of course, the Cleric prophecies will be self-serving as well. They may even send a Drider at the request of prominent leaders.
In any case, focusing on how Insight interacts with treachery seems a strong direction.
'Drow communities are ruled by female members of Lloths clergy, while males are relegated to the roles of warriors, crafters and menial servants.'
Notice the word choice, this Drow 'clergy' may comprise other divine classes besides Clerics. For example, Drow excel as Wis-Dex Avengers. The zealous and violent Avenger flavor works well for the Drow racial flavor. Perhaps these even serve as 'inquisitors' to determine which members of the population remain submissive to the Lolth clergy.
The developers probably use the vague term 'clergy' intentionally. Likely they know none of the Essential classes fit well for this Drow 'clergy'. Certainly not the Sun Warpriest, but also not the Storm Warpriest, and the Str-Cha Cavalier is even less rewarding. They probably plan to provide classes to better represent the Drow in future books. In the mean time, the Drow make decent Clerics - even if not the best.
Future classes also opens up the possibility of a Cha-Dex divine class, such as, something like an agile Paladin. Such a Cha-Dex class reminds me of the 'Necromongers' in the Chronicles of Riddick. The females who enter such a tradition would produce innately charismatic leaders.
Thus, the Drow clergy could consist primarily of a Cha-Dex divine class that openly dominate society as well as Wis-Dex Avengers that whisper secrets and assassinate enemies. The clergy may organize other divine class traditions as well.
Notice also, the Drow flavor seems to have abandoned the male arcane tradition. Males are now 'warriors', 'crafters', and 'servants'. In other words, if there is an arcane tradition it must exist to fulfill these societal roles. The Fey Hexblades serve well as the arcane warriors. Perhaps some future kind of Cha-Dex Sorcerer or even a Cha-Dex Bard may serve as arcane crafters (but differently from the Intelligent Artificer or divine Runepriest). These charismatic (perhaps even wise) arcane crafters would specialize in making arcane weapons and animate creatures to be warriors, as well as devices and animates for labor, conveniences, comforts, and pleasures.
Of course, the martial Dex-Cha Rogue - including the Thief - can serve in any capacity: covert warrior, skillful crafter, and servant. The Drow seem to develop martial traditions extensively, since their departure from the Feywild. The bulk of the low status males may be Rogues, tho even these would tend to have females in authority over them. Nevertheless, there are some trading companies, where males enjoy autonomy from the females, and govern themselves. These may comprise martial and-or arcane traditions.
In a Drow society, the status of a male would tend to depend on the status of the mother. Formally, one male would always rank higher than another male if the mother of one ranked higher than the mother of the other. Therefore, competition between males may lead to the assassination of the others mother, in order to ascend the ranks. But this is a dangerous intreague. For a male to kill a female would be a sacrilege against the name of Lolth. And. The Wis-Dex clergy would have the wise Insight to discover this male assassin.
Notice the implication of a four-tiered social status system.
• The female clergy as the sacred social status, who control all aspects of Drow life.
• The female secular, who rule administrate the desires of the clergy.
• The males who form the the House militias. The females (Paladins?) are their officers.
• The slaves from Nondrow races.
Presumably, the matron of each Drow House must be a member divine class. Even so, irregular Houses who dont tie in directly to the clergy, whose matrons have nondivine traditions, may also exist.