So far, we have the Minotaur, Githzerai, and Wilden to look forward to in PHB3. Current previews, combined with the space which the new hybrid rules will take up, point toward four races to be featured in the book. The question is, what will the remaining race be?
Some ideas:
Psionic race: With Psionics being such a big part of the book, a race flavored around psionics might be a possibility. We have the Githzerai and Kalashtar already, but another one might make an interesting choice. The problem is that none of the 3rd edition psionic races seemed to stick out too clearly thematically. The most popular ones, the Elan and Dromites, share conceptual space with the Kalashtar and Thri-Kreen (which are a distinct possibility with Dark Sun in the works), respectively. Elan could be reflavored to have some relation to the Far Realm, which might provide a fresh new angle.
Gnolls: Gnolls, like Minotaurs, have already gotten an online write-up. The main issue with them is the aversion to "evil" or "monstrous" races which kept the Githyanki out of the PHB3.
Centaurs: One reason why there wasn't a write-up for centaurs in the second monster manual is probably due to them being Large-sized. A more balanced, Medium-sized centaur might be a possibility for the PHB3, since like the Wilden they fit with Primal flavor. Of course, they might have decided it was too much trouble to have something as non-humanoid as the centaur as a playable race (issues with stairs and ladders might have proven too difficult to overcome).
Kobolds: A surprisingly popular race which has featured support in earlier 3rd-edition books. However, the "monstrous" issue pops up again here, and kobolds might be reserved for when more fitting power sources (like Shadow or Elemental) appear.
Something completely new: The sky's the limit here. If they decide to make something new, we could expect just about anything.
We actually have a pretty good guess as to what the 4th race will be ... even if we have no idea what we're looking at.
Take a look at page 74 of Dragon 377, there's a wierd looking PC-like woman-ish adventurer there. Those few who have given her a glimpse are pretty sure that we're looking at a new race. A few speculate that it could be the effects of a class, but I'm skeptical on that (since you can't tell what race she would have, otherwise, been).
Some have speculated that it is the new concept for the Wilden, but we have no reason to think that WotC has changed it so dramatically. After all, it doesn't fit ANY of the aspect descriptions.
So what is it? I have no idea. A reflavored Elan? A repurposed "psion-killer" (from 3E)? A reworked goblin? Who can say? I certainly can't, but at least we have an interesting bit of art to wonder about.
I hope this helped your curiousity!
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
I would frankly expect Half-Giants. To me, they seemed like the most popular psionic race other than perhaps Elans (who were popular mostly because they were broken as all hell).
I think that Dark Sun will pull heavily on the PHB3 races, and have Thri-Kreen as its own race in the Player's Guide.
By looking at "psionic races' we are really barking up the wrong tree. The developers have already said that the 'zerai are the only "psionic race" to appear in phb3. My guess would be a reworked Illumian, since they have alreadybeen mentioned in the Manual of the Planes, but there's absolutely no evidence for that beyond a single line.
I expect that whatever the race is, I will be happy with it.
Then again, since I'm not invested in any of the old campaign setting trappings, I do feel a sort of freedom . . .
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Thri-Kreen in the PHB3. This would free up space in the DSPG for more Athas-specific material. Just depends on how Athas-specific the Thri-Kreen is.
We actually have a pretty good guess as to what the 4th race will be ... even if we have no idea what we're looking at.
Take a look at page 74 of Dragon 377, there's a wierd looking PC-like woman-ish adventurer there. Those few who have given her a glimpse are pretty sure that we're looking at a new race. A few speculate that it could be the effects of a class, but I'm skeptical on that (since you can't tell what race she would have, otherwise, been).
I guess you are right, looks like a new race. I like it.
We actually have a pretty good guess as to what the 4th race will be ... even if we have no idea what we're looking at.
Take a look at page 74 of Dragon 377, there's a wierd looking PC-like woman-ish adventurer there. Those few who have given her a glimpse are pretty sure that we're looking at a new race. A few speculate that it could be the effects of a class, but I'm skeptical on that (since you can't tell what race she would have, otherwise, been).
Some have speculated that it is the new concept for the Wilden, but we have no reason to think that WotC has changed it so dramatically. After all, it doesn't fit ANY of the aspect descriptions.
This could be a new race. It could even be a psionic Wilden. It might also be a psychic sentinel. She looks like she could be a crystal-type creature. That would be an interesting new race if that is what she is.
@Half-Giant: Goliath
@Psionic Race: They already said that the Githzerai would be the most psionic race in the book.
Gnolls seem to be the best bet as far as I can tell. They would be the first Con/Dex race for a non-subscriber, though we would still be missing that fabled Con/Int. They're not included in Dragon Annual, and neither is the Minotaur (which we know is gonna be in PHB3), while the Shadar-kai still is (proving that it's not just that they didn't include the races arcticles).
Admittedly, I'd prefer to get a whole new race, one with Con/Int. But it seems unlikely.
WE know that PH3 followes both a Crunch theme and a Fluff theme. Crunch-wise, the theme is new options, wider selections, and generally being more open. In previewed material, we've seen Full Disciplines, Power Points, Hybrid Classes, Skill Powers, a race that can burn feats to use it's encounter power for other things, and a race that changes it's encounter power every short rest.
Fluff-wise, the theme is the battle against the Far Realm. This theme is the source of the new Psionics, and explains the presence of new Divine and Primal classes. It also explains the presance of monsterous creatures, like the minotaur- even ignoring the ones who follow Erathis, not even Bahopmet wants the world lost to the Far Realm.
With the various other Psionic races eliminated by a casual comment in the Githzeri article, the two themes above seem to be a workable framework for speculation.
Gnolls: The second 4E Race article printed in Dragon, Gnolls lack the refinements of newer races- A Racial paragon path, functional feat mechanics (claw fighter anyone?) and so forth. While they definitely have a primal connection (those not following Yeenoghu follow Melora, and Yeenoghu stole them from another nature deity) the free article does not present the kind op options we've come to expect from PH3. However, given the generally slapdash nature of the writeup in the first place means the PH3 developers have plenty of room to add options.
Thri-Kreen: While we have been told that there will not be a second Psionic race in PH3, this race was only really considered Psionic because it was from Dark Sun, where EVERYTHING was Psionic. However, the main selling point of the race is that it has 4 insect-like arms- options in it's purist form. While adjusting this ability to not be on par with an ED feature (Godlike Stature, Eternal Defender 24) has lead to several arguments on this board, I do believe it is possible. In the Dark Sun announcement, Thri-kreens hunting packs are mentioned alongside Elver raiders and halfling cannibals- while it's refering to monsters, the fact that the other two are PC options is heartening. Once PC status is assumed, the only question is whether they put it in PH3 or hold it for Dark Sun itself. (And whether they get the fabled Con/Int stat combo)
Centaurs: While they make an adiquate representation of a primal race, Centaurs have a significant stuumbling block- centaurs already exist, and are large. The benifits of Large size are, once again, something handed out by an ED- not something that belongs on a race available from level 1. Beyond that, they don't seem to really have any great flexibility, thematically.
Kobolds: A definate fan favorite, Kobolds are wonderful little buggers. Unfortunately, the developers have stated that for any PC writeup, Kobolds would lose Shifty, at least as we know it now. Personally, I'd leave them a little later- put Dragonwrout kobolds with the Elemental power source, and it;s all good.
Goblinoids: A three-for-one deal. Sharing a common history, Goblins, Hobgolins and bugbears each have their place. Marching to the call of the one evil deity to actually get a Channel Divinity feat, (a strong connection to Divine) they have every reason to save the world from the Far Realm. In fact, in the Ebberon setting the Goblinoids were responcible for turning back the LAST great Xoriat (far realm) incursion. They also have a tenius connection to psionics, in that Blue Goblins date back to early 3.0 as psionic goblins- be they warped by the far realm, or risen to defend against it, Goblinoids make an interesting (if less than likely) possibility for PH3.
We actually have a pretty good guess as to what the 4th race will be ... even if we have no idea what we're looking at.
Take a look at page 74 of Dragon 377, there's a wierd looking PC-like woman-ish adventurer there. Those few who have given her a glimpse are pretty sure that we're looking at a new race. A few speculate that it could be the effects of a class, but I'm skeptical on that (since you can't tell what race she would have, otherwise, been).
Some have speculated that it is the new concept for the Wilden, but we have no reason to think that WotC has changed it so dramatically. After all, it doesn't fit ANY of the aspect descriptions.
So what is it? I have no idea. A reflavored Elan? A repurposed "psion-killer" (from 3E)? A reworked goblin? Who can say? I certainly can't, but at least we have an interesting bit of art to wonder about.
I hope this helped your curiousity!
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
I'm really hoping it's that, especially if it's Con/Int.
We actually have a pretty good guess as to what the 4th race will be ... even if we have no idea what we're looking at.
Does anyone have a link to this picture so I can have a look at it?
It's not the 4th race. At best it's a power or summons. There are arguments over what's exactly included in the "Githzerai are most Psionicavailable race" but it still boils down to one thing - there will not be a race more Psionic themed than the Zerai in PHB3. And frankly, since they aren't that greatly Psionic flavored, a race that looks like older editions' usage of Psionic crystal is not going to be included as a PC race, because that would automatically be more Psionic natured than the Gith.
I'm thinking the Thri-Kreen will end up Con/Int anyway, because of i's Dark Sun roots- More HP, surges and endurance in Darksun's brutal enviroment, and a boost to psionics and magic, with the setting's emphasis on THAT, as well.
They may not end up in PH3, but they will at least be in the Dark Sun books.
I wouldn't see the Thri-Kreen as CON/INT, they'd be either a STR/DEX or a CON/DEX ... maybe even DEX/WIS first.
What I'd like to see are more Changeling-like races, which give a choice between two stats for your second stat-bump.
On a slight tangent, here's some ideas for stat arrangments for potential Dark Sun races, since the question seemed to come up.
Muls: Probably CON/DEX. From what I've read on the muls, they seemed better known for physical prowess and hardiness than mental acuity.
Half-Giants: STR/CON seems to make the most sense with the "giant" flavor, but there's plenty of races with that arrangement already, and the half-giants need something to set them apart from the Goliaths. Maybe STR/WIS as an alternative, if they're going to play up the psionic aspects of the race.
Thri-Kreen: Not quite as sure about this one. DEX/INT or CON/INT seem to make the most sense, depending on which aspects they wish to emphasize.
As for the PHB3, it seems psionic races are less likely given developer comments. Maybe something with psuedonatural or Far Realms-type flavor, if they're going with something new.
Thri-Kreen: Not quite as sure about this one. DEX/INT or CON/INT seem to make the most sense, depending on which aspects they wish to emphasize.
What if they were +2 Int, +2 Dex or Con? 
They are all smart, but some are faster, and some more chitinous.
Thri-Kreen: Not quite as sure about this one. DEX/INT or CON/INT seem to make the most sense, depending on which aspects they wish to emphasize.
What if they were +2 Int, +2 Dex or Con?
They are all smart, but some are faster, and some more chitinous.
That runs into NAD issues- one option adds to two defenses, the other adds to only 1.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Thri-Kreen in the PHB3. This would free up space in the DSPG for more Athas-specific material. Just depends on how Athas-specific the Thri-Kreen is.
I hope that Mantis is not in the PHB3 and keep it just tied to the crappy DS stuff.
I no longer have to be heavy handed to my players when they are thinking about playing a Warforged. Since in the CB it is no longer listed as a Dragon Magazine source it is now Eberron. Since we only use Realms that excludes the Warforged on that principle. Sorry no need to have little robots running around my fantasy setting.
Make matters worse you want to walk around with a Giant Mantis?
Just leave that to the DSPG. Just like you did the Genasi and Drow and everything would be nice.
I would love to have the Bariaur.
Since we have a lot of the 3.5 PH races already I don't know if we will get more (Aasimar, Tiefling, and Wildren have already been covered). I wouldn't pass on mephlings either.
Since the PHB3 is Psi, Divine, and Primal there is a good chance it would be a Primal. Like Centaur, brownie, even quickling.
Probably not Bariaur or Centaur since there isn't much rules on horseback (sorry for the pun) fighting rules. Mounted Combat and Ride by Attack seem to get much more play.
My money's on the Gnoll. Mostly because it didn't show up in the Dragon Annual.
Thri-Kreen: Not quite as sure about this one. DEX/INT or CON/INT seem to make the most sense, depending on which aspects they wish to emphasize.
What if they were +2 Int, +2 Dex or Con?
They are all smart, but some are faster, and some more chitinous.
That runs into NAD issues- one option adds to two defenses, the other adds to only 1.
OK, so Con and Int or Dex. Whatever. 
Though I don't see what the big deal would be.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Thri-Kreen in the PHB3. This would free up space in the DSPG for more Athas-specific material. Just depends on how Athas-specific the Thri-Kreen is.
I hope that Mantis is not in the PHB3 and keep it just tied to the crappy DS stuff.
I no longer have to be heavy handed to my players when they are thinking about playing a Warforged. Since in the CB it is no longer listed as a Dragon Magazine source it is now Eberron. Since we only use Realms that excludes the Warforged on that principle. Sorry no need to have little robots running around my fantasy setting.
Make matters worse you want to walk around with a Giant Mantis?
Just leave that to the DSPG. Just like you did the Genasi and Drow and everything would be nice.
My kingdom for a roll-eyes smiley...
Thri-kreen existed in Forgotten Realms years before Dark Sun was ever published. And "crappy DS stuff?" Oy.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Thri-Kreen in the PHB3. This would free up space in the DSPG for more Athas-specific material. Just depends on how Athas-specific the Thri-Kreen is.
I hope that Mantis is not in the PHB3 and keep it just tied to the crappy DS stuff.
I no longer have to be heavy handed to my players when they are thinking about playing a Warforged. Since in the CB it is no longer listed as a Dragon Magazine source it is now Eberron. Since we only use Realms that excludes the Warforged on that principle. Sorry no need to have little robots running around my fantasy setting.
Make matters worse you want to walk around with a Giant Mantis?
Just leave that to the DSPG. Just like you did the Genasi and Drow and everything would be nice.
My kingdom for a roll-eyes smiley...
Thri-kreen existed in Forgotten Realms years before Dark Sun was ever published. And "crappy DS stuff?" Oy.
I guess he must cut out all Golems too, they are giant robots afterall.
I mean, FR's gondsmen totally aren't living contructs...oh wait.
I guess he must cut out all Golems too, they are giant robots afterall.
I mean, FR's gondsmen totally aren't living contructs...oh wait.
It's fun seeing what people hate in their fantasy. And what people hate in their Sci-fi.
Golems are ok since for the most part they are lesser Frankensteins. They are empowered to do what the creator tells them. I'm not using the 2.0 Ravenloft ones or the New 4.0 Web Golem (haven't really looked at that one).
Having it thinking and able to act is too much like a robot. It is far from Data . The idea that it can react, think, feel, and do all what a living tissue person does is too much like A.I. We all know what that movie did.
Golems are ok since for the most part they are lesser Frankensteins. They are empowered to do what the creator tells them. I'm not using the 2.0 Ravenloft ones or the New 4.0 Web Golem (haven't really looked at that one).
Having it thinking and able to act is too much like a robot. It is far from Data . The idea that it can react, think, feel, and do all what a living tissue person does is too much like A.I. We all know what that movie did.
What about the Blaspheme from Open Grave?
We all know what that movie did.
What, cost way more than it was worth to make and underwhelm moviegoers?
Since we only use Realms that excludes the Warforged on that principle. Sorry no need to have little robots running around my fantasy setting.
1) Warforged aren't robots.
2) There are so many examples of different types of golems in Forgotten Realms lore its ridiculous to say sentient golems don't have a place in the setting.
If you don't like a race, that's fine. But admit that you don't like it and that's why you exclude it. I'm personally not too keen on drow. But that's a personal preference and I admit its a personal preference. I don't try to come up with easily refutable reasons to explain this dislike.
I didn't play in the Arcane Age in 3.5 so that lore you bring up is just like the sham they called the Spellplague.
As a DM of the group I asked the players what they liked and not. What we wanted to include and exclude. Basically we are Realms with the RPGA rules. We exclude the warforged because of the vote. Players know my distain for multi-classing and have yet to do it. I guess they feel it might bring a quick untimely death. Since you don't cross the DM and enjoy the glory long. Would I kill a multi-class character? Probably just as much as a non multi-class character; however, I like them believing the former.
It doesn't fit in my high fantasy/sorcery setting. We don't use orientals, we don't use firearms, and that means no gun powder pistols.
I want it to be believeable in the game. If you have any questions just ask the player that took the time to make a Hadozee (in 3.5)
There is no alternative timelines you can shift from.
I didn't play in the Arcane Age in 3.5 so that lore you bring up is just like the sham they called the Spellplague.
As a DM of the group I asked the players what they liked and not. What we wanted to include and exclude. Basically we are Realms with the RPGA rules. We exclude the warforged because of the vote. Players know my distain for multi-classing and have yet to do it. I guess they feel it might bring a quick untimely death. Since you don't cross the DM and enjoy the glory long. Would I kill a multi-class character? Probably just as much as a non multi-class character; however, I like them believing the former.
It doesn't fit in my high fantasy/sorcery setting. We don't use orientals, we don't use firearms, and that means no gun powder pistols.
I want it to be believeable in the game. If you have any questions just ask the player that took the time to make a Hadozee (in 3.5)
There is no alternative timelines you can shift from.
Gah. Glad I won't be playing in your game.
Me, I prefer to give my players as many options as I can. I guess it helps that even with my mild dislike for the race of humans, I still don't have a problem with any race option or equipment or class progression in the game.
I didn't play in the Arcane Age in 3.5 so that lore you bring up is just like the sham they called the Spellplague.
As a DM of the group I asked the players what they liked and not. What we wanted to include and exclude. Basically we are Realms with the RPGA rules. We exclude the warforged because of the vote. Players know my distain for multi-classing and have yet to do it. I guess they feel it might bring a quick untimely death. Since you don't cross the DM and enjoy the glory long. Would I kill a multi-class character? Probably just as much as a non multi-class character; however, I like them believing the former.
It doesn't fit in my high fantasy/sorcery setting. We don't use orientals, we don't use firearms, and that means no gun powder pistols.
I want it to be believeable in the game. If you have any questions just ask the player that took the time to make a Hadozee (in 3.5)
There is no alternative timelines you can shift from.
Gah. Glad I won't be playing in your game.
Me, I prefer to give my players as many options as I can. I guess it helps that even with my mild dislike for the race of humans, I still don't have a problem with any race option or equipment or class progression in the game.
I'm with you. I outright hate a number of races and classes in the game, but so long as there's no blatant imbalances involved (I banned druids in 3rd, don't gotta do that no more), a player can play what he wants and I won't punish him for it.
No offense Darth but I wouldn't play in your game :p though I'm sure you guys have fun... well expect those guys who think multiclassing would be fun >.>
I hope the fourth race is a new race (maybe small to fit the pattern of 1 small race per PHB and maybe throw some Small race only feats or something...). That way we have two old race (Minotaur, Githzerai) and two new ones (Wilden and the other one).
*snip*
One of the gamers in my campaign, who works in an undisclosed Federal agency in the same complex as Wizards of the Coast claims that he has overheard them talking about the fourth race. He says it will be......
DALEKS!
Of course, he lies. A lot.
We already HAVE warforged!
We already HAVE warforged!
You...obviously don't know Daleks.
They're like Cylons, but made out of trash cans?
They're like Cylons, but made out of trash cans?
Daleks are not robots.
They're bio-engineered Space Nazis in power suits.
They're like Cylons, but made out of trash cans?
Daleks are not robots.
They're bio-engineered Space Nazis in power suits.
Pretty much.
My money's on Warforged.
My money's on Warforged.
I wouldn't count on it, considering that Warforged already receive a full write-up in the Eberron Player's Guide.
My money's on Warforged.
Okay, I don't really know much about the issue, but I think I can safely say: Pay up, sucka!
Well, my choice would be the Illumians from 3.5 Races of Destiny and recently the Manuual of the Planes.
Second choice would be Gnolls.
Bel
Illuminans can be interesting but they wont go with Gnolls, as they said no evil race like Drow anymore and put on hold Githyanki.
I think, it will be a Dark Sun related generic but non psionic race. Like Shifter is an eberron put in phb 2.
I think, it will be a Dark Sun related generic but non psionic race. Like Shifter is an eberron put in phb 2.
Muls would work. They're effectively a race of barbarians, so this could be broadened to give them close ties to primal classes (with barbarian obviously being their favoured class).
I think, it will be a Dark Sun related generic but non psionic race. Like Shifter is an eberron put in phb 2.
Muls would work. They're effectively a race of barbarians, so this could be broadened to give them close ties to primal classes (with barbarian obviously being their favoured class).
Just because one is barbaric does not make one a Barbarian.
Plus, favored classes are no more.
I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but Half-Giants are listed in the races section of the Eberron Players Guide, so i will expect them to be the 4th race
Illuminans can be interesting but they wont go with Gnolls, as they said no evil race like Drow anymore and put on hold Githyanki.
I think, it will be a Dark Sun related generic but non psionic race. Like Shifter is an eberron put in phb 2.
??? Since when have Illumains been evil? If they were anything they were lawful(as I recall).
I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but Half-Giants are listed in the races section of the Eberron Players Guide, so i will expect them to be the 4th race
No they weren't. They were mentioned in a single region write up, not in the races section.
No they weren't. They were mentioned in a single region write up, not in the races section.
Still a mark in their favor, that they were mentioned at all.
No they weren't. They were mentioned in a single region write up, not in the races section.
My Bad, but they are mentioned.. which is more than what has occurred for any other race. Plus half giants fit in with the upcoming Dark Sun setting, leaving Thri-Kreen and Mul to appear in the Dark Sun Players Guide (Mainly because I see them as far more Dark Sun specialized - maybe the the Thri0Kreen less so, but still very Dark Sun)
So yea, my money is on Half-Giants.
No they weren't. They were mentioned in a single region write up, not in the races section.
My Bad, but they are mentioned.. which is more than what has occurred for any other race. Plus half giants fit in with the upcoming Dark Sun setting, leaving Thri-Kreen and Mul to appear in the Dark Sun Players Guide (Mainly because I see them as far more Dark Sun specialized - maybe the the Thri0Kreen less so, but still very Dark Sun)
So yea, my money is on Half-Giants.
Any other race than Thri-kreen (mentioned in the same sentence) and Gnolls (PC artwork in AV2, conspicuous absence from the Dragon Annual) that is.
One of those two are my bets.
My Bad, but they are mentioned.. which is more than what has occurred for any other race. Plus half giants fit in with the upcoming Dark Sun setting, leaving Thri-Kreen and Mul to appear in the Dark Sun Players Guide (Mainly because I see them as far more Dark Sun specialized - maybe the the Thri0Kreen less so, but still very Dark Sun)
So yea, my money is on Half-Giants.
Any other race except for Illumians, Thri-Kreen, Bladelings, Gnolls, Bullywugs, Buergar, Kenku, Bugbears, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Minotaurs, Kobolds, or Orcs.
I personally see Half-Giants as being a safe bet for Dark Sun Player Guide, but I doubt they will make it into PHB3. Just my opinion though.
My Bad, but they are mentioned.. which is more than what has occurred for any other race. Plus half giants fit in with the upcoming Dark Sun setting, leaving Thri-Kreen and Mul to appear in the Dark Sun Players Guide (Mainly because I see them as far more Dark Sun specialized - maybe the the Thri0Kreen less so, but still very Dark Sun)So yea, my money is on Half-Giants.
Doesn't seem to likely to me. Thematically half-giants seem far too similar to goliaths. It's possible for WotC to make them mechanically distinct, but I don't think PH3 is the place to do it (especially since we just got goliaths in PH2) Also, with minotaurs already a known race for PH3, it would seem unlikely that we would get a second "giant bruiser" race in the same book (I would personally hope for more diversity than that with only 4 races total). If half-giants show up anywhere, I'd think it much more likely to be the Dark Sun Player's Guide (where they could rely on ties to the setting to help keep themselves distinct and relevant).
I don't think it will be thri-kreen in PH3 either, though for different reasons. Thri-kreen aren't exclusive to Dark Sun (even if that setting made them famous), however, they posses a significant amount of visual distinctiveness. I can't imagine WotC would put them in a book an not include a picture of the race on the cover.
Mul would seem to me the mostly likely Dark Sun race to end up in PH3. Though if they do I should think it likely that the heading for their racial entry would read half-dwarf.
Illumians i could see as a possibility (I kind of hope not, i was never much of a fan), We already know Minotaurs will be there.
Gnoll has a fairly complete write up, plus they already have a beastial race in the PHB 3 - the Minotaur
I really don't see Duergar, Bullywugs, Orcs, Bladelings, Hobgoblins, Goblins, or Kobolds getting very much support at all, 4th ed is too focused on heroic characters. While they have received a partial write up in some sources, the majority of those races are really not intended for the "Good Guys".
Kenku i am not sure about either.. there really doesn't seem to be that much support for them (well, not that i have seen anyways)
I think the Mul might be too Dark Sun specific (they are bred to be slaves as part of their core fluff, most of the other campaign settings don't really deal with Slaves as head on a Dark Sun does). Unless of course they go the Half-Dwarf route, but the whole slavery thing seems a little too much at their core.
Thri-Kreen did appear in a few other settings, but they are somewhat Dark Sun iconic, so I think they are most likely in the Dark Sun Players guide, much like the Drow are in Forgotten Realms.
So, I still think Half-Giant is the most likely out of all of the suggestions I have read so far. While the Half-Giant is still fairly Dark Sun specific, they are generic enough to drop into most campaign settings, I mean they do have the whole slavery background thing that Muls have, but they also have other themes going for them, which allows the slavery background to be played down, Mul's don;t really have that, unless WOTC completely changes what it is to be a Mul (I mean even the name Mul refers to Mule, as in a hard working pack animal)
It won't be Half-Giants, for the simple reason that if Half-Giants are even offered as a race, they'll almost certainly be Str/Con, and WotC seems to be refraining from including more than one race in a single book with the same stat pair.
Personally.. I hope to high heven we don't get the "crystal" human. Cause personally, I'm getting tired of playing the diffrent variations of humans.. you know, pointy eared human, short human, short drunk human, short human, pointy eared dark skilled human, devil human, robot human, slightly fuzzy human, psyhco human.. ect.
I'm really hoping for gnolls, since thier current write up is so hap hazard right now, and they are certianly NOT human. Mino is nice.. but really.. Imagine an Gnoll assassin. He never has to get rid of the bodies, cause he can just eat them. Not really evil IMO, no more evil than say a palidin who rushes into a den of thieves slaughtering them all and leaving thier bodies to rot. (Actually probally less evil than that, since the gnoll is like using the corpses as substinance.)
Course I'd play the slightly fuzzy humans, if they had like.. some sort of racial traits like all the other races do, besides thier little skill.
Illumians i could see as a possibility (I kind of hope not, i was never much of a fan), We already know Minotaurs will be there.
Gnoll has a fairly complete write up, plus they already have a beastial race in the PHB 3 - the Minotaur
I really don't see Duergar, Bullywugs, Orcs, Bladelings, Hobgoblins, Goblins, or Kobolds getting very much support at all, 4th ed is too focused on heroic characters. While they have received a partial write up in some sources, the majority of those races are really not intended for the "Good Guys".
Kenku i am not sure about either.. there really doesn't seem to be that much support for them (well, not that i have seen anyways)
I think the Mul might be too Dark Sun specific (they are bred to be slaves as part of their core fluff, most of the other campaign settings don't really deal with Slaves as head on a Dark Sun does). Unless of course they go the Half-Dwarf route, but the whole slavery thing seems a little too much at their core.
Thri-Kreen did appear in a few other settings, but they are somewhat Dark Sun iconic, so I think they are most likely in the Dark Sun Players guide, much like the Drow are in Forgotten Realms.
So, I still think Half-Giant is the most likely out of all of the suggestions I have read so far. While the Half-Giant is still fairly Dark Sun specific, they are generic enough to drop into most campaign settings, I mean they do have the whole slavery background thing that Muls have, but they also have other themes going for them, which allows the slavery background to be played down, Mul's don;t really have that, unless WOTC completely changes what it is to be a Mul (I mean even the name Mul refers to Mule, as in a hard working pack animal)
How do minotaurs discount illumians?
I want to see at least hobgoblins, if not all 3 goblonoids, stated as pc races cause I play Eberron where they are actually somewhat civilized.
@Celticmutt: Also do we really need more str/con races, in official sources we have i think three(Goliath, Warforged, and now Minotaur), and far too many to name in MM and Dragon articles.
I'm still banking on something new myself. 2 new races, 2 old races, seems fair.
... A race of crystalline beings? Too human?
... Really?
All other arguments aside, really?
Because it doesn't have an animal head?
EDIT: Because I just noticed how bad double-lines look in this format.
Nothing stops a Warforged from grafting on an animal head.
I fixed that for you. 
Or adding horns, tusk, or other aesthetic improvement. One of my character I never got to play was an insane Warforged Starlock and he replaced one of his eye with a Delver's Light :D
I think the Mul might be too Dark Sun specific (they are bred to be slaves as part of their core fluff, most of the other campaign settings don't really deal with Slaves as head on a Dark Sun does).
While it is true that slavery is not common in D&D, it does exist in 4e races: 'Gnomes were once enslaved by the fomorian rules of the Feydark' and 'Dwaves also despise giants and titans, because the dwarf race once labored as the giants' slaves'. That means that there is a 'theme' of an enslaved race in each PH.
I would not like for Thri Kreen to be in the PH3. I think that they deserve a place in 4e, but not in the core line of books. This is because, unlike those who are tired of variations on humans, I find that radically different beings are hard to fit into campaigns. Of course they could be another race from the Faewild or some other non-standard place, but I would still prefer them to be in DS rather than PH3.
We actually have a pretty good guess as to what the 4th race will be ... even if we have no idea what we're looking at.
Take a look at page 74 of Dragon 377, there's a wierd looking PC-like woman-ish adventurer there. Those few who have given her a glimpse are pretty sure that we're looking at a new race. A few speculate that it could be the effects of a class, but I'm skeptical on that (since you can't tell what race she would have, otherwise, been).
Some have speculated that it is the new concept for the Wilden, but we have no reason to think that WotC has changed it so dramatically. After all, it doesn't fit ANY of the aspect descriptions.
So what is it? I have no idea. A reflavored Elan? A repurposed "psion-killer" (from 3E)? A reworked goblin? Who can say? I certainly can't, but at least we have an interesting bit of art to wonder about.
I hope this helped your curiousity!
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
It looks like a cross between a red ethergaunt and a psion killer. I wouldn't be suprised if we got another race as unusual as the warforged. Although, thats assuming what we are looking at isn't just something in crystal armor, or a monster.
I also highly doubt the halfgiant, thrikreen or mul will be in the phb3.
... A race of crystalline beings? Too human?
... Really?
All other arguments aside, really?
Because it doesn't have an animal head?
EDIT: Because I just noticed how bad double-lines look in this format.
Yes, They do look very human reguardless of body composition. Its because of Magic the gatherings scorge block with little humans like this one..
www.anycraze.com/showcard_full.asp?id=SC...
I'd Totally take something like a Half-vampire human, cause even though it is human, its a vampire. But only if it has the mechanics to support such a claim. Which is why to me, the Shifters are just fuzzy humans. They lack said mechanics.
The changeling is kinda eh to me because all i can think about when i see the male picture is david bowie in the labrith as the goblin king.
It doesn't have to have an animal head, its just really gotta have a feel that it is a bit of an Oddball race to go out adventuring. So far, I've been playing a revenant and a gnoll alot, And yes, the revenant is a 'dead human' race, but it certianly has quite a nice feel to it that makes it something more. Like i get down to 0 hp often (because i'm crazy like that.) and use Second wind because if it.
course we get to make lots of jokes and stuff too, because he is undead. And when I play my gnoll, I'm starting to imagine something a bit like a cross between Fezzik and scooby-doo.
But most of the other Humish races, don't have the feal. Though I might use a changeling when we start using assassins. But probally a revenant/changeling assassin.
What do you mean Shifters don't have the mechanic?! They got their racial power that can last for the whole encounter!!
I really like that crystalline being in Dragon 377, I REALLY hope its a new race and its in PHB3!
We already have "Half vampire" as a feat chain also.
We already have "Half vampire" as a feat chain also.
Plus Half-Vampire is a pretty boring concept XD
We already have "Half vampire" as a feat chain also.
Plus Half-Vampire is a pretty boring concept XD
no wai!1!!!11 it r best evar! then i can play mah fave char from twiliiight!!111!!!1!eleven!
I couldn't help myself.
no wai!1!!!11 it r best evar! then i can play mah fave char from twiliiight!!111!!!1!eleven!I couldn't help myself.
And I can't blame you
We already have "Half vampire" as a feat chain also.
Plus Half-Vampire is a pretty boring concept XD
no wai!1!!!11 it r best evar! then i can play mah fave char from that little girls book made into a movie!!111!!!1!eleven!
I couldn't help myself.
Neither could I...
So, referring back to the post by Dreadman ...
Does everyone here agree ...
- The pic on page 74 of Dragon 377 is the fourth race in the PH3.
- This pic represents a crystaline race.
Those conclusions seem reasonable to me.
So, referring back to the post by Dreadman ...
Does everyone here agree ...
- The pic on page 74 of Dragon 377 is the fourth race in the PH3.
- This pic represents a crystaline race.
Those conclusions seem reasonable to me.
I disagree- it seems to me to be far more likely to be a Dark Sun Warforged. (because metal warforged have all been dismantled. :p)
So, referring back to the post by Dreadman ...
Does everyone here agree ...
- The pic on page 74 of Dragon 377 is the fourth race in the PH3.
- This pic represents a crystaline race.
Those conclusions seem reasonable to me.
No, not at all. The picture represents a power or monster, not a PC race.
no wai!1!!!11 it r best evar! then i can play mah fave char from twiliiight!!111!!!1!eleven!
I'd play that. But only if they had a racial power that whenever someone shined light on me music started playing, I glittered like a disco ball, and all enemies who can see me were effected by Otto's Irresistible Dance.
So, referring back to the post by Dreadman ...
Does everyone here agree ...
- The pic on page 74 of Dragon 377 is the fourth race in the PH3.
- This pic represents a crystaline race.
Those conclusions seem reasonable to me.
I think the creature looks cool, but looks are not everything. Gotta see what it offers. I have no idea if its gonna be a playable race, could be the 4th race or could just be a picture of a monster.
So, referring back to the post by Dreadman ...
Does everyone here agree ...
- The pic on page 74 of Dragon 377 is the fourth race in the PH3.
- This pic represents a crystaline race.
Those conclusions seem reasonable to me.
I disagree- it seems to me to be far more likely to be a Dark Sun Warforged. (because metal warforged have all been dismantled. :p)
I highly doubt there will be any offical support for warforged on athas.
If there is a fourth race it might be Centuars as they're something of a fan favorite.
So, referring back to the post by Dreadman ...Does everyone here agree ...
- The pic on page 74 of Dragon 377 is the fourth race in the PH3.
- This pic represents a crystaline race.
Those conclusions seem reasonable to me.
I disagree- it seems to me to be far more likely to be a Dark Sun Warforged. (because metal warforged have all been dismantled. :p)
I highly doubt there will be any offical support for warforged on athas.
I should think that it might be reasonable enough to assume there could be about as much support for playing warforged in Athas as in Faerun (ancient relic of a forgotten ages, unique creation of creative wizard/artificer, stranded traveler from a distant plane). However, the notion that the crystalline humanoid is some kind of Dark Sun specific incarnation of a warforged does seem unlikely.
My personally opinion is that I think it is a wilden using a polymorph power (similar to a warden's guardian forms), possibly an ability of the psionic defender class. Other then being made of crystal the basic body structure looks close enough.
Regarding the pic in D377 ...
Some contrary evidence came to mind.
Given: The Githzerai - who isnt all that Psionic - is still the 'most' psionic of the four PH3 races, apparently.
Therefore: The fourth race probably wont be Psionic.
Given: The pic of the crystaline creature illustrates a text about Psionic.
Therefore: The creature in the pic is probably Psionic.
Therefore: The creature in the pic is probably NOT the fourth race.
Is the above logic persuasive?
Regarding the pic in D377 ...
Some contrary evidence came to mind.
Given: The Githzerai - who isnt all that Psionic - is still the 'most' psionic of the four PH3 races, apparently.
Therefore: The fourth race probably wont be Psionic.
Given: The pic of the crystaline creature illustrates a text about Psionic.
Therefore: The creature in the pic is probably Psionic.
Therefore: The creature in the pic is probably NOT the fourth race.
Is the above logic persuasive?
Much more so. I agree.
no wai!1!!!11 it r best evar! then i can play mah fave char from that little girls book made into a movie!!111!!!1!eleven!
I couldn't help myself.
Neither could I...
Lawl...
no wai!1!!!11 it r best evar! then i can play mah fave char from twiliiight!!111!!!1!eleven!
I'd play that. But only if they had a racial power that whenever someone shined light on me music started playing, I glittered like a disco ball, and all enemies who can see me were effected by Otto's Irresistible Dance.
and lawler. =D
Gourd, I love this place sometimes.
Edit: I just learned about this "Oh, in MY stories vampires GLITTER in the sun, not die" thing the other day from a friend. Which kinda made me laugh, kinda made me sad, and kinda made me want to punch the creator in the vajew.
Regarding the pic in D377 ...
Some contrary evidence came to mind.
Given: The Githzerai - who isnt all that Psionic - is still the 'most' psionic of the four PH3 races, apparently.
Therefore: The fourth race probably wont be Psionic.
Given: The pic of the crystaline creature illustrates a text about Psionic.
Therefore: The creature in the pic is probably Psionic.
Therefore: The creature in the pic is probably NOT the fourth race.
Is the above logic persuasive?
Persuasive? Definitely. I'd even go so far as to call it bulletproof.
So, let's assume, for just a second, that a Dark Sun race will be included in PHB3. Therefore, we have to decide which Dark Sun race is most universal.
First, races that already exist as stated races.
Halflings, Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Etc, Et Al - Already exist
Dray - Effectively Dragonborn
Half-Giant - Since Large races are effectively out of the question for PCs in 4e, due to stated design philosophy, any playable Half-Giant race would be indistiguishable from the Goliaths.
Impossible races next
Arakocra/Pterran - Flying races, again violates stated 4e design philosophies.
That leaves Muls and Thri-kreen.
Thri-kreen - Four armed Bug men. Very odd, hard to balance (4 arms, either two non-functional or to much power, hard to rule), can be shoe horned into both Forgotten Realms and Eberron in out of the way places (i.e. in the middle of the deserts where people don't often go, on small subcontinents out in the middle of nowhere, etc), but Ultimately don't really Mesh into the settings well without being written in from the beginning.
Muls - Half-Dwarves, by Dark Sun lore, they are a slave race, and that doesn't fit well in other setting, but that's Dark Sun SPECIFIC lore. It's like the Halflings being Crazy Cannibals. That lore doesn't have to carry over to other settings. Since all settings already HAVE both humans and dwarves, the concept of rare half-dwarves as a sub-race isn't really that absurd.
I think that Muls, Perhaps under the name Half-Dwarf, perhaps under the name Mul, is the most likely Dark Sun race to find it's way into a PHB.
Note - Elan and Maenad - Both were later introductions, with no history in the setting, they were Poof Mystery races. Since they've said they want to go back to the original 2nd ed boxed set, it's logical that the Elan and Maenad won't show up.
More arms don't mean more attacks in 4E, and WotC's fear of flying is irrational as flying/ranged monsters at heroic tier levels make up basically the same percentage of total monsters as they do at paragon and epic tiers.
Arn't Arakocra basically Kenku? Or in any case refluffed kenku, like the Dray/Dragonborn?
Regarding the pic in D377 ...
Some contrary evidence came to mind.
Given: The Githzerai - who isnt all that Psionic - is still the 'most' psionic of the four PH3 races, apparently.
Therefore: The fourth race probably wont be Psionic.
Given: The pic of the crystaline creature illustrates a text about Psionic.
Therefore: The creature in the pic is probably Psionic.
Therefore: The creature in the pic is probably NOT the fourth race.
Is the above logic persuasive?
Nope because the Zerai "feels the most psionic" not "is the most psionic". So if the crystal thing is the 4th race and does have a psionic orgin, it can still "feel" less psionic if their racial traits and feats don't emphasize their psionic orgin too much. Plus I'm going to point out yet again that the comment in question was that the Zerai would feel the most psionic out of the available races. Kalashtar are an available race. Therefore as long as the theoretical crystal race was less psionic than a race with at will telepathy, they would still be in under that statement. :P
More arms don't mean more attacks in 4E, and WotC's fear of flying is irrational as flying/ranged monsters at heroic tier levels make up basically the same percentage of total monsters as they do at paragon and epic tiers.
Yeah, but as others have pointed out, four arms means you can hold 4 implements, and use Multi-Implement Cheese to absurd and disgusting levels.
Yeah, but as others have pointed out, four arms means you can hold 4 implements, and use Multi-Implement Cheese to absurd and disgusting levels.
They could do something sneaky like add a clause that specifically states they can only benefit from the two that they hold in their "main hands."
Arn't Arakocra basically Kenku? Or in any case refluffed kenku, like the Dray/Dragonborn?
No, and dray are NOT dragonborn. Athasian dwarves are NOT standard 4e dwarves either....
Infact, Dray probably WON'T be a playable race in darksun. Gotta wait and find out.
PHB3 will not include darksun races. The darksun players guide will.
[edit] I believe one of these races will be the fourth race in the PHB3, assuming there really are only 4..
1. Killoren
2. Illumian
3. Dromite
4. Aquatic themed race.
Nope because the Zerai "feels the most psionic" not "is the most psionic". So if the crystal thing is the 4th race and does have a psionic orgin, it can still "feel" less psionic if their racial traits and feats don't emphasize their psionic orgin too much.
Except that the Githzerai racial traits and feats don't neccesarily feel Psionic at all; they feel disciplined, but not neccesarily what most would think of for Psionic (Mind-bullets). Your argument does not hold water.
Except that the Githzerai racial traits and feats don't neccesarily feel Psionic at all; they feel disciplined, but not neccesarily what most would think of for Psionic (Mind-bullets). Your argument does not hold water.
A developer was the one who said that Zerai would feel the most psionic out of the available races. I'm just extending that to counter an argument based off of an incorrect recollection of the quote. If you disagree that the Zerai feel psionic then your issue is with the developer who made the comment not with me. I'm just working with what I was given.
Arn't Arakocra basically Kenku? Or in any case refluffed kenku, like the Dray/Dragonborn?
No, and dray are NOT dragonborn. Athasian dwarves are NOT standard 4e dwarves either....Infact, Dray probably WON'T be a playable race in darksun. Gotta wait and find out.
PHB3 will not include darksun races. The darksun players guide will.
[edit] I believe one of these races will be the fourth race in the PHB3, assuming there really are only 4..
1. Killoren
2. Illumian
3. Dromite
4. Aquatic themed race.
Shifters (PHB2) were an eberron race, so it's possible that a Dark Sun race will be available, no certain but possible.
Wilden are the updated Killoren. Aquatics is a rare thing in most campaigns. Dromites, may fall into the psionic problem but don't have to, I like the dromites alot. Illumians are possible, but I hope not never cared for them much to be honest.
[edit] I believe one of these races will be the fourth race in the PHB3, assuming there really are only 4..
1. Killoren
2. Illumian
3. Dromite
4. Aquatic themed race.
Killoren and Wilden are the same thing. Killoren is just a better name.
Killoren and Wilden are the same thing. Killoren is just a better name.
Yes it is.
Thri-kreen - Four armed Bug men. Very odd, hard to balance (4 arms, either two non-functional or to much power, hard to rule), can be shoe horned into both Forgotten Realms and Eberron in out of the way places (i.e. in the middle of the deserts where people don't often go, on small subcontinents out in the middle of nowhere, etc), but Ultimately don't really Mesh into the settings well without being written in from the beginning.
Except that Thri-kreen existed in Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, and either/both of Greyhawk and Mystara before Dark Sun was published. There is no need to shoe-horn in something that already exists there. And Eberron has included mentions of Thri-kreen in the Talenta Plains since the beginning.
A developer was the one who said that Zerai would feel the most psionic out of the available races. I'm just extending that to counter an argument based off of an incorrect recollection of the quote. If you disagree that the Zerai feel psionic then your issue is with the developer who made the comment not with me. I'm just working with what I was given.
Available in the PHB3. There is absolutely no reason to believe he meant out of every single race in every single source, because frankly it completely and utterly ignores reality. Kalashtar and Githyanki are both far more Psionic based than Githzerai, and the Deva are at least equal.
To believe that a developer, who should know their own system, would honestly feel the Githzerai, even after the feats so far presented are used, are more Psionic than are race created specifically to showcase Psionics, and the earliest race to be related to Psionics, is ludicrous.
Arn't Arakocra basically Kenku? Or in any case refluffed kenku, like the Dray/Dragonborn?
No, and dray are NOT dragonborn. Athasian dwarves are NOT standard 4e dwarves either....Infact, Dray probably WON'T be a playable race in darksun. Gotta wait and find out.
PHB3 will not include darksun races. The darksun players guide will.
[edit] I believe one of these races will be the fourth race in the PHB3, assuming there really are only 4..
1. Killoren
2. Illumian
3. Dromite
4. Aquatic themed race.
Shifters (PHB2) were an eberron race, so it's possible that a Dark Sun race will be available, no certain but possible.
Wilden are the updated Killoren. Aquatics is a rare thing in most campaigns. Dromites, may fall into the psionic problem but don't have to, I like the dromites alot. Illumians are possible, but I hope not never cared for them much to be honest.
Very good point!
[edit] I believe one of these races will be the fourth race in the PHB3, assuming there really are only 4..
1. Killoren
2. Illumian
3. Dromite
4. Aquatic themed race.
Killoren and Wilden are the same thing. Killoren is just a better name.
To me, Wildens are warcraft owlbears. So.... Ew. lol. (atleast I think thats what they're called!)
Doesn't seem to likely to me. Thematically half-giants seem far too similar to goliaths.
That's like saying Devas and Kalashtar are thematically too similar.
Half-Giants have no culture and are less intelligent then all other playable races. But they do possess astounding degrees of curiousity and usually kindness. This manifests itself in adopting the culture of others and mimicing their behaviour, even if they don't understand the reason for the behaviour. Half-giants are easily tricked and able to switch loyalties fairly easily which some races (such as dwarves) find intolerable.
In comparison Goliaths have a nomadic tribal society and are fairly reclusive from other races. They see life as one grand competition constantly seek to better themselves and beat others. This competitive mindset doesn't manifest itself in a mean-spirited way and goliaths have very little patience for cheaters or sore losers.
I don't see how either of those races are even remotely similar.
I'm really hoping for gnolls, since thier current write up is so hap hazard right now, and they are certianly NOT human.
Of course they are, they're dog humans. Because if you're going to call golems humans, you can call everything human.
Arn't Arakocra basically Kenku? Or in any case refluffed kenku, like the Dray/Dragonborn?
Not at all. Kenku can't fly, Aarakocra can. So mechanically they're distinct right from the beginning. Then there's the fact kenku are sly and secretive. This allows them to thrive in the underbelly of the civilised world. They're opportunistic and don't allow laws or morality to stand in their way. They live in tribal societies who are extremely suspicious of outsiders, even kenku who aren't members of their tribe. They run a wide variety of criminal enterprises, favouring schemes and cons.
Aarakocra are freedom loving creatures who live in their tribal lands, high in the mountains. They sometimes, although only rarely, venture into the rest of the civilised world as adventuruous youngsters. Aarakocra are your typical loners, and dislike the heat and stink of cities.
Kenku definitely describe an Athasian race, but it isn't Aarakocra. They describe Elves. Here's a brief description of Athasian Elves
To an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf. Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust. Elves will go to great lengths to contrive and execute these tests, even to the point of putting their own lives at risk. All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage.
Seriosuly, kenku are athasian city elves. If I were to create the 4th ed version of the Dark Sun campaign I would transform kenku into city elves and keep the elves as nomadic raiders and xenophobes.
Available in the PHB3. There is absolutely no reason to believe he meant out of every single race in every single source, because frankly it completely and utterly ignores reality. Kalashtar and Githyanki are both far more Psionic based than Githzerai, and the Deva are at least equal.
To believe that a developer, who should know their own system, would honestly feel the Githzerai, even after the feats so far presented are used, are more Psionic than are race created specifically to showcase Psionics, and the earliest race to be related to Psionics, is ludicrous.
The comment doesn't specify that it relates to the PHB3. If he had wanted to say that it would feel the most psionic out of the races in the PHB3 then I belive he would have worded it differently, and frankly I don't think there is much of a point to the sentence if he was only talking about the PHB3 races. All that aside, the most important fact of all of this is that it is an opinion on how others will feel. If he thinks that other people will find a race of crystaline people less psionic than the Zerai, then the statement isn't really proof of anything.
Maybe wotc will break down someday and give us a book full of new 4e races, and nothing else. I'd buy it. Think of a book with 13+ races to add to our games. I wouldn't be mad at wotc if they did the same for classes. A whole book dedicated to new core classes, paragons, racial paragons and ED's.
I know some people really hated 3.5 because of the size of the collection, but I really loved having so much information and choices. The complete and races series were among my favorites as a player.
Maybe wotc will break down someday and give us a book full of new 4e races, and nothing else. I'd buy it. Think of a book with 13+ races to add to our games. I wouldn't be mad at wotc if they did the same for classes. A whole book dedicated to new core classes, paragons, racial paragons and ED's.
I know some people really hated 3.5 because of the size of the collection, but I really loved having so much information and choices. The complete and races series were among my favorites as a player.
I agree
Doesn't seem to likely to me. Thematically half-giants seem far too similar to goliaths.
That's like saying Devas and Kalashtar are thematically too similar.
Not really. one is a race of fallen angels, the other is a race bound to dream spirits. One is meant to favor the divine power source the other is meant to favor psionic. One is immortal bound to a cycle of reincarnation, the other is distinctly mortal (though there dream spirits give them limited access to a sort of group consciousness.
A lot of that could be written off as just flavor, except for the immortal part which is supported by mechanics.
Half-Giants have no culture and are less intelligent then all other playable races. But they do possess astounding degrees of curiousity and usually kindness. This manifests itself in adopting the culture of others and mimicing their behaviour, even if they don't understand the reason for the behaviour. Half-giants are easily tricked and able to switch loyalties fairly easily which some races (such as dwarves) find intolerable.
None of those sound like particularly good qualities for a PC race. Races in 4e are defined by their strengths, not weaknesses. Intelligence doesn't get any lower than no bonus, gullibility doesn't get any worse than no bonus to wisdom, and lack of self defined personality doesn't get any lower than a lack of charisma bonus. This leaves them with STR/CON/DEX for their racial ability bonuses, and dexterity seems an unlikely choice.
Anyway none of what you described is bound by the mechanics of the race, just culture stuff. Goliath could be the cultural flavor used in the default setting, while half-giant could be the culture (or lack there of) used in Dark Sun, with both races using the same mechanics.
I don't see how either of those races are even remotely similar.
Both are primarily known for their great size. Both would likely share the same same stat boons. The rest is just cultural fluff, which can vary wildly from setting to setting (just look at the elves of Eberron).
Even if half-giants manage to be a distinct race it likely won't be in PH3 (we've already got the minotaur, and I personally would hope for better variety than that).
Not really. one is a race of fallen angels, the other is a race bound to dream spirits.
Devas are fairly reserved folk who have bouts of violence. Same with kalashtar. They give a +2 to Intelligence and Wisdom, both mental faculties that would work well with any psionic class. What origin does the dream realm offer? We could easily just say they have ties to the Immortal Origin because Quori don't die in the Dream Plane.
Both are primarily known for their great size. Both would likely share the ame same stat boons. The rest is just cultural fluff, which can vary wildly from setting to setting (just look at the elves of Eberron).
First you say they could be distinct mechanically, but thematically they're too similar.
It's possible for WotC to make them mechanically distinct
I offer that devas and kalashtar can be refluffed to be the same and then give a long list of reasons in how culturally (or the lack thereof) half-giants and goliath are distinct, you say they're too similar mechanically.
If you don't like the race just say so. Because there's one good reason we probably won't see them. They're LARGE. We have seen WotC carefully avoid large races.
Also if people say half-giants are suddenly less stupid due to the fact they have an 8 and 10 in their mental scores, those are people I do not want to roleplay with.
First you say they could be distinct mechanically, but thematically they're too similar.
By thematics I never meant fluff. I meant the role that the race plays from a conceptual stand point. In this case being that of big bruiser. A theme that half-giants share with the goliaths of PH2, the minotaurs of PH3, the Bugbears of MM1, and to some extent even the dragonborn of PH1.
If you don't like the race just say so. Because there's one good reason we probably won't see them. They're LARGE. We have seen WotC carefully avoid large races.
When did I ever say that I hate the half-giant? It's not about hate, it's about preference. I personally feel that there are already plenty of other similar races and so I'm in no hurry to see more.
Oh, and I don't know about 2e, but in 3e half-giants were Medium with the Powerful Build racial trait, same as goliaths.
By thematics I never meant fluff. I meant the role that the race plays from a conceptual stand point. In this case being that of big bruiser. A theme that half-giants share with the goliaths of PH2, the minotaurs of PH3, the Bugbears of MM1, and to some extent even the dragonborn of PH1.
That's one theme. Another is a childlike view of the world and a trusting and innocence other races are incapable of sustaining to the same degree. Honestly "big brute" is so generic that as you point out, MANY races fill this option. Any race that has +2 Strength and +2 Con is going to effectively fill this roll. I doubt we'll see a ban on these races, as otherwise people will say "there's too many scrawny races" for the +2 dex races, or "there's too many mental themed races."
It's not about hate, it's about preference. I personally feel that there are already plenty of other similar races and so I'm in no hurry to see more.
I said dislike not hate. Hating a fictional race would just be downright silly ;)
in 3e half-giants were Medium with the Powerful Build racial trait, same as goliaths.
I did not know that, that's interesting. Always when I've heard someone mention half-giants, the issue of size has always been brought up. So I thought surely they must be large.
That's one theme. Another is a childlike view of the world and a trusting and innocence other races are incapable of sustaining to the same degree.
I wouldn't go so far as saying that no other race can sustain it. I've seen that theme applied to halfings before. Regardless though, the problem with that theme is how to portray it mechanically. If it can't be represented mechanically then it's just fluff.
For me the goliath's racial stats already deliver almost everything I would expect out of a half-giant. The only difference to me are the fluff, which can easily be addressed in a side bar like fashion in the DSPG stating that in Athas goliaths are more commonly known as half-giant followed by a list of what makes them culturally distinct from their generic setting counterparts. Not only does this reduce the need for possibly redundant racial mechanics, but it also eliminates the need to find another place to fit goliaths into the setting.
I said dislike not hate. Hating a fictional race would just be downright silly ;)
My appolgies for over reacting to you statements.
in 3e half-giants were Medium with the Powerful Build racial trait, same as goliaths.
I did not know that, that's interesting. Always when I've heard someone mention half-giants, the issue of size has always been brought up. So I thought surely they must be large.
Well now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
I said dislike not hate. Hating a fictional race would just be downright silly ;)
I hate gnomes in D&D since the first edition, and I'm not silly !!!!!
Athas is the nicest place to play, BECAUSE ALL GNOMES HAVE BEEN KILLED !!!
A proof that all sorcerers kings are not completly evil, isn't it ?
What is silly is D&D gNoMEs.
What fills completly my head when I see these gnomes is the urge to buy them a comb !!!
GnOmeS ! Kill them on sight ! With a comb, if possible. The silly death they all deserve.
I said dislike not hate. Hating a fictional race would just be downright silly ;)
I hate gnomes in D&D since the first edition, and I'm not silly !!!!!Athas is the nicest place to play, BECAUSE ALL GNOMES HAVE BEEN KILLED !!!
A proof that all sorcerers kings are not completly evil, isn't it ?What is silly is D&D gNoMEs.
What fills completly my head when I see these gnomes is the urge to buy them a comb !!!GnOmeS ! Kill them on sight ! With a comb, if possible. The silly death they all deserve.
Racist!
By thematics I never meant fluff. I meant the role that the race plays from a conceptual stand point. In this case being that of big bruiser. A theme that half-giants share with the goliaths of PH2, the minotaurs of PH3, the Bugbears of MM1, and to some extent even the dragonborn of PH1.
That's one theme. Another is a childlike view of the world and a trusting and innocence other races are incapable of sustaining to the same degree. Honestly "big brute" is so generic that as you point out, MANY races fill this option. Any race that has +2 Strength and +2 Con is going to effectively fill this roll. I doubt we'll see a ban on these races, as otherwise people will say "there's too many scrawny races" for the +2 dex races, or "there's too many mental themed races."
The point is that we already have a Big Bruister in PHB3, the Minotaur. So if Half-Giant warrant a PC write up it wouldn't be in PHB3, especially since we're limited to 4 races I would expect them to give us variety.
The Gith occupies the design space of the 'Psionic race' and the focused disciplined mind from another plane. They share some design space with Eladrin and Deva and maybe even the Tiefling.
The Minotaur is the big burly physical guy and shares design space with the Dragonborn, the Goliath and even the Dwarf and to some extend the Half-Orc!
The Wilden is the 'Primal Race', born of nature and a staunch defender with a WIS bonus. They share some design space with Elves, Shifters and again possibly Half-Orcs.
What we're missing is the sneaky guy and the witty social guy. Gnomes fit in both those category and one hand share design space with the Halfling and on the other with the Tiefling and Half-Elf.
So far our three races are not really social butterflies: Githzerai and Minotaurs are viewed as monsters by many and their nations don't usually mingle well while Wilden as truly alien in mindset in appearance and have no real experience to speak off when dealing with others, being a new race and all.
I'm expecting the last race to have a CHA bonus and a Diplomacy bonus. What race could fill that spot I can't say.
I hate gnomes in D&D since the first edition, and I'm not silly !!!!!
- Premise: Hating gnomes is silly.
- Premise: Monsieur_Moustache claims to hate gnomes.
- Conclusion: Monsieur_Moustache is being silly.*
--------------
- Premise: Monsieur_Moustache claims to not be silly.
- *Premise: Monsieur_Moustache is being silly.
- Conclusion: Damn, Monsieur_Moustache is crazy!
You have been lawyered.
I hate gnomes in D&D since the first edition, and I'm not silly !!!!!
- Premise: Hating gnomes is silly.
- Premise: Monsieur_Moustache claims to hate gnomes.
- Conclusion: Monsieur_Moustache is being silly.*
--------------
- Premise: Monsieur_Moustache claims to not be silly.
- *Premise: Monsieur_Moustache is being silly.
- Conclusion: Damn, Monsieur_Moustache is crazy!
You have been lawyered.
Silly logic ! 
• Premise: rare things cost more money than normal
• Premise: Good deals are rare
• Conclusion : Good deals cost more money than normal ?
• Premise: Loving gnomes brings silly logic
• Premise: Good people must be protected from silly logic
• Conclusion : gNomEs must die ! 
I vote for an entirely new race for the PHB3 : the Gnomeater, bringer of good taste.
Monsieur Moustache is not crazy, just amazingly brilliant !
My personal favorite:
Premise: God is love
Premise: Love is blind
Conclusion: Stevie Wonder is God.
Oh Stephen, where would we be without you?
As for my prediction, I'm going to say something entirely new. Like, new ground that hasn't been seen in any edition so far.
I mean, if I'm gonna guess, I'm gonna guess big.
Oh Stephen, where would we be without you?
As for my prediction, I'm going to say something entirely new. Like, new ground that hasn't been seen in any edition so far.
I mean, if I'm gonna guess, I'm gonna guess big.
It's going to be warbears. I'd include a humorous image, but I can't find the one I wanted. XD
Redcaps....particularly, redcaps that drench their caps in the blood of gnomes....and warbears...and any other creature foolish enough to cross them.
I'm betting on Horseshoecrabfolk myself :D with the ability to breath underwater, perception bonus and resistance to disease.
:p
*snip*
Rumor has it they're including a secret fifth race, the horseshoecrabfolk's ancient foe:
THE MANGOOSE
*snip*
Rumor has it they're including a secret fifth race, the horseshoecrabfolk's ancient foe:
THE MANGOOSE
NOOOOOO!
I thought they were only getting an NPC writeup in the MM3!!
There will be blood!
GRAWR!
I need a better name for a horshoecrabfolk than horseshoecrabfolk. How about Limulian? The horseshoe crab's family is called 'Limulus' in latin.
Horseshoedin?
Horseshoedin?
Sound like a relative of horseradish :p I think anything with 'horseshoe' in it would be slang.
No, the fourth race will be....Sleestak!
Horseshoedin?
Sounds like a Street Fighter attack. Horseshoedin!
I dont think that the crystalline humanoid is a race, just guessing but it could be a paragon path. it just looks too much like the 3.5 psion killer or DnD minis Legendary Evils Psychic sentinel to be a playable race. having said that i do think it very possible for a class like psychic warrior to develop a talent where its skin becomes crystalline giving it loads of psychic resistance. that's why i think it could be a paragon path...
I think the mystery 4th race will be either: dromite, to fill the small race gap. gnoll, cuz they were left out of dragon annual. or something entirely new.
lets look at it this way, the power sources will be psionic, primal and divine. the classes will of course be split up into this ratio psionic:4 primal and divine each 2. shouldn't the races also be split up into which sources they favor. problem is you cant easily divide 4 three ways without remainders so one source may get another race that favors it or one race my favor two or more sources like i think the minotaur does or the 4th race wont favor any power source and be fairly generic like humans.
Githzerai - psionic
Minotaur - primal and divine (showing both erathis and baphomet's influence)
wilden - primal
4th race - ?
I dont think that the crystalline humanoid is a race, just guessing but it could be a paragon path. it just looks too much like the 3.5 psion killer or DnD minis Legendary Evils Psychic sentinel to be a playable race. having said that i do think it very possible for a class like psychic warrior to develop a talent where its skin becomes crystalline giving it loads of psychic resistance. that's why i think it could be a paragon path...
This. To me the picture looks too much like a wilden to be a unique race. My guess is that it's a wilden using some sort of psionic polymorph effect.
I think the 4th race should be Goblin.
secretly, i want it to be half-ogres.
This. To me the picture looks too much like a wilden to be a unique race. My guess is that it's a wilden using some sort of psionic polymorph effect.
O.o That is not a Wilden head. It isn't even close.
This. To me the picture looks too much like a wilden to be a unique race. My guess is that it's a wilden using some sort of psionic polymorph effect.
O.o That is not a Wilden head. It isn't even close.
Like the original playtest article? No, but close enough to the more recent CB artwork to be a polymorphed wilden. The eyes, nose, and over all shape of the face look wilden like. The lack of mouth could, like the crystalline form, be a result of the polymorph. The "hair" doesn't look overly wilden like, but it could just be a matter of how this particular wilden styles it, or the crystal transformation could have weighted it down.
Wasn't the crystalline thing just a picture of a Githzerai Sentinel construct?
I don't think there was anything that implied it was a PC race.
Like the original playtest article? No, but close enough to the more recent CB artwork to be a polymorphed wilden. The eyes, nose, and over all shape of the face look wilden like. The lack of mouth could, like the crystalline form, be a result of the polymorph. The "hair" doesn't look overly wilden like, but it could just be a matter of how this particular wilden styles it, or the crystal transformation could have weighted it down.
I was looking at the Character Builder one when I made my statement. The Wilden's head is basically a triangle(which has been present in all four images of them) while the crystaline thing has a more oval shape to their head.
I was looking at the Character Builder one when I made my statement. The Wilden's head is basically a triangle(which has been present in all four images of them) while the crystaline thing has a more oval shape to their head.
The crystal thing's head doesn't look oval shaped to me. Take away the wilden's Wolverine-like "hair" and their heads are basically the same. Same pointed chin, same slanted yellow eyes, same thin nose, same gill-like lines on their cheeks.
Perhaps the fourth class will be something divine-flavored, since we have the primal Wilden and psionic Githzerai already. The Deva seem to fill this niche already, but there could be room for another; something like the heroic Greek demi-god concept. This might also set a precedent if Half-Giants are going to be included in the Dark Sun setting despite their superficial similarities to the Goliaths.
A basic idea:
Empyrean/Aasimar: STR/WIS, STR/CHA, or WIS/CHA. Perhaps STR plus either WIS or CHA, going off the precedent set by the Changeling. As well as being good at being Clerics, Paladins, or whatever new divine class is featured (depending on what it is), they might make decent Monks.
Gotta say I agree with many here that Gnolls seem the best possibilty (and probably smartest) for the 4th PHB3 race. I could be wrong, but like has been said, they work well as a "Primal" race and given they need some work from thier Dragon write-up (ala Minotaur) they just make too good of candidates to pass up. Still we could all be wrong.
I just read up on the Kenku, and I think they would be amazing, I would highly enjoy that!
I really liked the raptorans from 3.5. But I think we're unlikely to see them in 4e, at least for a while.
Gunna chime in for a few of my group members here, as a consensus they all believe the 4th PHB3 race "should" be Orc. They reason that they already added Half-Orcs...so they should have Orcs (kinda like Elf and Half-Elf...I guess). Anways thats my Players for ya, had to toss in thier 2 coppers as the idea is at least a little sound.
Gunna chime in for a few of my group members here, as a consensus they all believe the 4th PHB3 race "should" be Orc. They reason that they already added Half-Orcs...so they should have Orcs (kinda like Elf and Half-Elf...I guess). Anways thats my Players for ya, had to toss in thier 2 coppers as the idea is at least a little sound.
No its not.
Orcs have the same stat bonus as Minotaur. They would step on the minotaur's conceptual space too much and would be wasted paper. Since we're getting only four races they each have to occupy a different conceptual space and not be redundant with one another.
Well, it's happened again.
A Minotaur hero is appearing as a preview picture for one of the Primal Power excerpst (www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_1012... )
Minotaurs are slated to become a core race in PH3, which comes out after Primal Power.
Which brings us back to the Gnoll in Adventurer's Vault 2 (www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_av2_... )
I'm gonna have to say what Omni said above. I think it should be a divine race.
Look at PHB2. They gave us Divine, Arcane, and Primal classes, and so they gave us a Divine (Deva), Arcane (Gnome), and Primal (Goliath and Shifter) race. Now the Deva of course made a good Arcane too, but it's flavor was divine.
Now in this next PHB, they're adding Divine, Primal and Psionic classes. Divine (none yet), Primal (Wilden), Psionic (Gith) races added...
Also, just as an interesting note: PHB2 also added a race(Half-Orc) with no particular bend towards any power source from that book. They can flavor very well with Primal, but they can do just as well with most martial classes. Basically, they like to hit things. PHB3 has a race which appears to have no particular bend(Minotaur) to its power sources. But I suppose we'll see...
I'm gonna have to say what Omni said above. I think it should be a divine race.
Look at PHB2. They gave us Divine, Arcane, and Primal classes, and so they gave us a Divine (Deva), Arcane (Gnome), and Primal (Goliath and Shifter) race. Now the Deva of course made a good Arcane too, but it's flavor was divine.
Now in this next PHB, they're adding Divine, Primal and Psionic classes. Divine (none yet), Primal (Wilden), Psionic (Gith) races added...
Also, just as an interesting note: PHB2 also added a race(Half-Orc) with no particular bend towards any power source from that book. They can flavor very well with Primal, but they can do just as well with most martial classes. Basically, they like to hit things. PHB3 has a race which appears to have no particular bend(Minotaur) to its power sources. But I suppose we'll see...
When it comes to "divine race" I think the Deva pretty much has it covered. What's more divine than angel people?
I'll agree that you don't get much more divine than angel people, but I do want to disagree with your suggestion that it cuts off another divine race. After all, you can't get much more Primal than wilden, but the shifters are still pretty primal.
Will the new race be more divine than devas? Probably not, but there are plenty of divine ideas to go around. None spring to mind at present, but then I am really tired. Anyways, I have no idea what the race is, but I think its as likely to be divine-esqe as it is to be anything else.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
Personally I hope its another Psionic based race, but not something soooo... how do i say it, Githy?
I'd like to see something all together new though, not a reflavoring, or something from 3e that people liked, but something that when 5e rolls around we'll all be having this conversation again hoping the new race gets adopted.
5e is certainly being talked about a lot, considering how young 4e is.
On topic. I just want more races. I basically don't care what they are as long as its not goblins or kobolds or pixies. (not yet anyways)
I'm gonna have to say what Omni said above. I think it should be a divine race.
When it comes to "divine race" I think the Deva pretty much has it covered. What's more divine than angel people?
It wouldn't take much to spin Illumians as the favored people of Ioun. Plenty of resonant Old Testament mythology to crib from, there.
Personally, I'd like to see another Psionic race with my personal favorites being Maenads, Dromites and Elan in that order. I dunno, but I've never really been fond of the Gith races and Githzerai don't feel particularly Psionic to me.
I figure Dromites won't get in as they are too close Tri-Kreen (shudder) in concept; Psionic bug people...how many psionic bug people races do we really need? I think the same stance will apply to the Elan, their concept is way too similar to the kalashtar to really give them their own room to grow.
That leaves me with the hope that the Maenad will make it at some point. I love the idea of a race of psionic people that chennel their raw emotions to develop Psi powers rather than aesthetic discipline. Plus they killed their own god for their freedom. That's just a damn cool story in my opinion. My favorite character in 3.5 was a Maenad Barbarian/Wilder. Maybe not the most effective character combination but he was a heel of a lot of fun to play!
On that note, I hope the Wilder class gets a 4th edition version as well. I personally see them as being Strikers and would love the chance to play one again.
/me prays for the Maenad and Wilder to reappear in 4th Edition. Basilius Valentin the Hybrid Barbarian/Wilder must live again!
Well, I'm sure it's been said already, but the githzerai being the most psionic race doesn't disclude other psionic races. Discounting the elan or the xeph, almost every race in the old XPH had a few additional quirks to further define its characteristics. Dromites were half-insect and sexless, maenads were constrained-yet-wild and had crystal-hued bits on their skin, half giants were . . . well, half giant. It wouldn't even be that hard to cut out the natural psionic abilities and still present them as races, even though the Athasian refugee may be in competition with the goliath for a lot of things. We've already seen the new duergar after all.
It wouldn't take much to spin Illumians as the favored people of Ioun. Plenty of resonant Old Testament mythology to crib from, there.
(pretend there is a ??? smiley here) What do you mean spin? That is basically what their entry in the Manual of the Planes put them as. We just lack stats for thema t the moment(although I would classify them as more of arcane then divine myself *shrugs*).
Mercaius: The githzerai being the most psionic race doesn't disclude other psionic races.
Actually, Githzerai being the 'most' psionic race, does preclude any other psionic races. Because. Githzerai arent all that Psionic to begin with. Anyone 'less' Psionic than a Githzerai would be as Psionic as a Minotaur.
On that note, I hope the Wilder class gets a 4th edition version as well. I personally see them as being Strikers and would love the chance to play one again.
Slightly off topic, but I'm not sure I see wilder working very well as a distinct class. Other than being psionic rather than arcane I'm not sure it could be sufficiently distinct from a wild soul sorcerer. However, I think it would make a great pseudo-class like spellscared. Start with the concept of wild talent as the base feat then create a list appropriately thematic powers for swapping. Seems like a perfect concept to include in the DSPG to help drive home the idea of a setting where everyone has psionic potential.
Actually, Githzerai being the 'most' psionic race, does preclude any other psionic races. Because. Githzerai arent all that Psionic to begin with. Anyone 'less' Psionic than a Githzerai would be as Psionic as a Minotaur.
I disagree. Dromites aren't very psionic like, their one psioinc ability from 3.5 would be more like an elemental ability in 4e. Half-giants also aren't very psionic save having originated as a concept in Dark Sun, though I doubt they will show up anywhere except possibly the DSPG. Thri-kreen are certainly not all that psionic, but they are also very likely to be held back for inclusion in the DSPG.
Tharac: Dromites aren't very psionic like. ...
You seem to agree? These other possible races, like Dromite, arent 'Psionic' races.
So, if Githzerai are the 'most Psionic', it means there wont be any 'Psionic' races.
This was an issue with most of the old-E ones - they were so strongly yoked to the psionic rules that you really couldn't make full use of them without being a psionic character.
Well some races are simply good at one power source, and they haven't really even tried to sell them as good at them. Half-Orcs for example are really good at the Martial Power source, as they have a bonus in every primary stat martial classes have. Tieflings are good at all arcane classes, except for CON using warlocks as every other Arcane class is INT or CHA. And it seems that so far, Deva are really good at Psionics as they have the advantage as Monks and Psions.
And it seems that so far, Deva are really good at Psionics as they have the advantage as Monks and Psions.
What advantage do Deva have as Monks? Monks attack with DEX. Did you perhaps mean Eladrin, Shadar-kai, and Changelings who all have DEX+INT stat pairs?
Either way it's probably too soon to say what stat pair will best support psionic. Monk wasn't originally developed as psionic so probably isn't a good gage of typical ability score preferences.
Yeah, its a serious problem when the intended flavor fails to match the actual mechanics.
Kobold Avenger: Tieflings are good at all arcane classes, except for CON using warlocks as every other Arcane class is INT or CHA.
Ironically, the one flavor that the designers intended the Tieflings to be good at, the Infernal Warlock, is the one thing Tieflings fail at because it requires Con. This dissonance pressures Tiefling players to choose non-hellish pacts instead that are mechanically better. Conversly, this actually causes the Half-Elf to mechanically inherit the hellish flavor, while mechanically failing its own intended Fey flavor that requires Int. Mechanical dissonance undermines flavor and ruins character concepts. Annoying.
Fortunately, recently, designers have been getting better at matching flavor and mechanics.
Half-Orcs for example are really good at the Martial Power source, as they have a bonus in every primary stat martial classes have.
Seems to me, Half-Orcs are supposed to be good at the current Martial classes? However, Half-Orcs also make excellent Psionic Dex-Str Monks. To their credit, the designers noticed the mechanical affinity and supplied flavor to make sense of it. The designers explained, Half-Orcs as a group are generally too undisciplined for there to be any significant number of Half-Orc Monks, but that there are individuals known for their excellence. This flavor helps form a story whenever players choose this.
And it seems that so far, Deva are really good at Psionics as they have the advantage as Monks and Psions.
So far, there are only two Core mental races, the Int-Wis Deva and the Int-Cha Tiefling. Neither of them particularly Psionic in flavor. The Deva makes an excellent Telekinetic and the Tiefling a Telepath. Im not a fan of the Tiefling. While the Deva is a cool race, in itself, its fluff entwines the Divine power source whose fluff is a suffocating polytheistic railroad.
Unfortunately, the only Psionic-flavor race, the Wis-Cha Kalashtar, is non-Core and only exists in the Eberron setting.
Part of the 'good at a power source' is due to overreliance on a given stat for the classes relating to the power source (almost every divine and primal class is Wis-based, which I don't feel is a good approach for just this reason), but even in those cases, they're not the *only* power source that works for the race, or one that they're tied directly to by their mechanics. A deva works quite well as a number of non-divine classes despite the divine background, likewise the tiefling isn't solely viable as a warlock.
(It's not that tieflings are bad at the infernal pact either; they're good at it not due to their stats but due to their feats. Moreover, story-wise they're not expected to be super infernalists - that's the pact that got the better of them as a race, and one that they tend to shy away from because of it.)
Tieflings .. at the infernal pact; they're good at it due to their feats. Moreover, story-wise they're not expected to be super infernalists - that's the pact that got the better of them as a race, and one that they tend to shy away from because of it.
The above explanation is unconvincing.
Rather, if 'storywise' the Tiefling isnt supposed to be 'super infernalists', then they shouldnt have mechanically infernalist feats.
Obviously, the Tieflings dissonance between flavor and mechanics is a result of design failure.
By the way, [with regard to the PH1 only that introduced the Tiefling race] theres no explanation for why Tieflings make the best *Fey* Warlocks. Their fluff has nothing to do with the Feywild.
...apply to the Elan, their concept is way too similar to the kalashtar to really give them their own room to grow.
Where do people keep getting this idea from? The only things the Elan and Kalashtar had in common were that they were both psychic and humanoid.
It's like saying we can't have Warforged because we already have Eladrin. Or Gnomes.
Hell, I can see the fourth race being Elan simply because Ritual magic has no set power source, meaning the Elan wouldn't be more psi than the giths.
Especially if they have Con/Int or Con/Wis.
Tieflings .. at the infernal pact; they're good at it due to their feats. Moreover, story-wise they're not expected to be super infernalists - that's the pact that got the better of them as a race, and one that they tend to shy away from because of it.
The above explanation is unconvincing.
Rather, if 'storywise' the Tiefling isnt supposed to be 'super infernalists', then they shouldnt have mechanically infernalist feats.
Obviously, the Tieflings dissonance between flavor and mechanics is a result of design failure.
By the way, theres no explanation for why Tieflings make the best *Fey* Warlocks. Their fluff has nothing to do with the Feywild.
Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Tieflings make the best Star Pact Warlocks. You have to give up an at-will tille paragon, but the payoff is worth it. Lots of thier feats key off of Fear effects and being relentless. Even then after that, Tieflings with their aggressive feats and powers are better Dark Pact than Fey. Plus, there is no shame in the 18/14 array. Or in just having a sixteen in your primary attack stat. Tieflings make perfectly capable Hell'locks. They aren't THEBESTESTBEST, but, without a Con/Int race, nothing really is. Unless we see a glut of aggressive Con/Int races, Tieflings are still one of the better Hell'lock races.
The Fey pact race is probably the gnome.
Critical Rhetorical Failure.
...apply to the Elan, their concept is way too similar to the kalashtar to really give them their own room to grow.Where do people keep getting this idea from? The only things the Elan and Kalashtar had in common were that they were both psychic and humanoid.
It's like saying we can't have Warforged because we already have Eladrin. Or Gnomes.
That is over-exageration. Kalashtar are a race of beings who share one of 32(?) souls of an other-dimensional race (the Quori) along family lines (Either Paternally or Maternally, depending on gender). Elan are humans who have bonded with a symbiote/parasite to create a composite, immortal being. In fact in Eberron, Elan are Humans who have been directly bonded to a Quori.
Are they identical concepts? No. Are they similar? Yes. In my opinion they are similar enough that it doesn't warrent making stats for both of them at this moment. WotC seems to be trying to make each race distinct from the others and in my opinion, Elan and Kalashtar are not distinct enough to warrent a write up for the Elan right now. To be honest, while I like the Elan, I'd much rather have a race with a distinct background and niche.
To each his own.
Part of the 'good at a power source' is due to overreliance on a given stat for the classes relating to the power source (almost every divine and primal class is Wis-based, which I don't feel is a good approach for just this reason), but even in those cases, they're not the *only* power source that works for the race, or one that they're tied directly to by their mechanics. A deva works quite well as a number of non-divine classes despite the divine background, likewise the tiefling isn't solely viable as a warlock.
Sorry, but I don't see any problem with stat over-reliance within any power source. What I see is consistent use of certain key stats that allow races that are supposed to excel at certain themes to do so. For example, Eladrin are supposed to excel at arcane arts which the do quite well because half of the arcane classes use INT as a primary stat, a third use INT as a secondary, and the remaining class uses DEX as a secondary.
Furthermore you exaggerate Primal's reliance on WIS. Prior to the Seeker primal was an even split between STR and WIS. In fact, such a split seems fairly common. Martial always attacks with STR or DEX. Arcane always with INT or CHA, save half the warlock class. Even divine isn't wholly dependent on WIS. Only one of the original two classes even used WIS as an attack stat and only with half of its powers.
Elan are humans who have bonded with a symbiote/parasite to create a composite, immortal being.
Where do you get this from? According to the XPH they're humans who've undergone an undefined psionic ritual. That's it.
Sure, they may have a parasite in thier neck. They might also have absorbed the knowledge and powers of a dead starspawn who they've defeated in personal combat, or dismantled thier old body to create a new one out of psionic energy.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Crystal thingamajobber from earlier in the thread is a 4e Elan.
Yeah, its a serious problem when the intended flavor fails to match the actual mechanics.
Kobold Avenger: Tieflings are good at all arcane classes, except for CON using warlocks as every other Arcane class is INT or CHA.
Ironically, the one flavor that the designers intended the Tieflings to be good at, the Infernal Warlock, is the one thing Tieflings fail at because it requires Con. This dissonance pressures Tiefling players to choose non-hellish pacts instead that are mechanically better. Conversly, this actually causes the Half-Elf to mechanically inherit the hellish flavor, while mechanically failing its own intended Fey flavor that requires Int. Mechanical dissonance undermines flavor and ruins character concepts. Annoying.
Except that the Half-elf still doesn't have the Int bonus that the Infernal Pact uses, so in reality it's wqually good at both pacts.
Seems to me, Half-Orcs are supposed to be good at the current Martial classes? However, Half-Orcs also make excellent Psionic Dex-Str Monks. To their credit, the designers noticed the mechanical affinity and supplied flavor to make sense of it. The designers explained, Half-Orcs as a group are generally too undisciplined for there to be any significant number of Half-Orc Monks, but that there are individuals known for their excellence. This flavor helps form a story whenever players choose this.
And why, exactly, does a Half-orc making a good Monk need to be explained? Oh, that's right, it doesn't. Half-orcs aren't all mindless brutes and bruisers. Nothing "has" to be explained.
And it seems that so far, Deva are really good at Psionics as they have the advantage as Monks and Psions.So far, there are only two Core mental races, the Int-Wis Deva and the Int-Cha Tiefling. Neither of them particularly Psionic in flavor. The Deva makes an excellent Telekinetic and the Tiefling a Telepath. Im not a fan of the Tiefling. While the Deva is a cool race, in itself, its fluff entwines the Divine power source whose fluff is a suffocating polytheistic railroad.
Unfortunately, the only Psionic-flavor race, the Wis-Cha Kalashtar, is non-Core and only exists in the Eberron setting.
Wrong. Incredibly wrong. So incredibly wrong. The stuff in the EPG is CORE. Let me repeat that: Changelings, who can be Int/Cha are CORE, Kalashtar are CORE, Warforged are CORE, and Artificers are CORE. Everything mechanics wise in the EPG is CORE.
Now, whether you choose to use them in your games or not is up to you. But that does not change the absolute and unescapable fact that the material is just as Core as the stuff in PHB1, PHB2, all the X Power books, and Dragon.
I just want to chime in and say that you forgot the gnome (Int Cha).
...everyone forgets the gnome.
We still "need" a Con/Int race. Since Githyanki isn't going to be in a PHB yet, I would like to see something new. (I am eventually going to write up the Krynnish Sea elves as a Con/Int race or a Str/Int race some time down the road).
I am not convinced yet that the crystal being we saw is going to be our fourth race. Crystal seems to rest squarely in the realm of psionics (it almost always has), and Githzerai are our most psionic race (and they aren't exactly that psionic in the first place). Gnolls seem to be a safe bet.
I just want to chime in and say that you forgot the gnome (Int Cha).
...everyone forgets the gnome.
We still "need" a Con/Int race. Since Githyanki isn't going to be in a PHB yet, I would like to see something new. (I am eventually going to write up the Krynnish Sea elves as a Con/Int race or a Str/Int race some time down the road).
I am not convinced yet that the crystal being we saw is going to be our fourth race. Crystal seems to rest squarely in the realm of psionics (it almost always has), and Githzerai are our most psionic race (and they aren't exactly that psionic in the first place). Gnolls seem to be a safe bet.
I dont forget the gnome. They are tasty.
Regarding Warlock and races, I was referring to the PH1 only. The Gnome wasnt under discussion.
When the PH1 first came out, the irony that Half-Elves made better Infernal Warlocks while the Tiefling made better Fey Warlocks, was widely mentioned, and considered faulty design.
As I mentioned earlier, with regard to more recent races and classes, the designers made a point to ensure flavor coheres with mechanics.
Celtic, WotC uses the word 'Core' to mean different things. With regard to 'brand' name' the default D&D points-of-light setting was properly called the 'D&D Core' campaign setting, as opposed to the 'Forgotten Realms' setting or the 'Eberron' setting. In this sense, things peculiar to Eberron are 'non-Core'.
I noticed with the website overhaul, they changed the name of the default setting from 'D&D Core' to the 'D&D' campaign setting. If so, it would be correct to describe 'Eberron' as 'non-D&D'.
In any case, 'alternative' settings are just that. 'Alternative'. As far as the official default rules go, Eberron material has no more authority than homebrew.
> 'Alternative'. As far as the official default rules go,
> Eberron material has no more authority than homebrew.
Direct and recent statements by the developers themselves say otherwise, regardless of whether you wish to adhere to that point of view.
In any case, 'alternative' settings are just that. 'Alternative'. As far as the official default rules go, Eberron material has no more authority than homebrew.
Direct and recent statements by the developers themselves say otherwise, regardless of whether you wish to adhere to that point of view.
Precisely. The fluff in campaign player's guides is setting specific, but the mechanics such as races, classes, and feats are not. This is why, for example, the swordmage and darklock get expanded coverage in Arcane Power, a "core" book, even though they where first introduced in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, a "setting" book.
I would think that it is safe to say that anything that is allowed in LFR is core. As such we see that most mechanics from setting books are 'core' but not certain (possibly ill-balanced) features, namely Spell-scarring and Dragonmarks.
Celtic, WotC uses the word 'Core' to mean different things. With regard to 'brand' name' the default D&D points-of-light setting was properly called the 'D&D Core' campaign setting, as opposed to the 'Forgotten Realms' setting or the 'Eberron' setting. In this sense, things peculiar to Eberron are 'non-Core'.
I noticed with the website overhaul, they changed the name of the default setting from 'D&D Core' to the 'D&D' campaign setting. If so, it would be correct to describe 'Eberron' as 'non-D&D'.
In any case, 'alternative' settings are just that. 'Alternative'. As far as the official default rules go, Eberron material has no more authority than homebrew.
As the others have said, you're wrong. The developers themselves have said repeatedly, it is all core. Everything mechanical.
As I said, you're free to keep or drop whatever you want in your game, but it doesn't change the fact, and yes it is a fact, that as far as WotC is concerned, it's core.
Celtic, WotC uses the word 'Core' to mean different things. With regard to 'brand' name' the default D&D points-of-light setting was properly called the 'D&D Core' campaign setting, as opposed to the 'Forgotten Realms' setting or the 'Eberron' setting. In this sense, things peculiar to Eberron are 'non-Core'.
I noticed with the website overhaul, they changed the name of the default setting from 'D&D Core' to the 'D&D' campaign setting. If so, it would be correct to describe 'Eberron' as 'non-D&D'.
In any case, 'alternative' settings are just that. 'Alternative'. As far as the official default rules go, Eberron material has no more authority than homebrew.
As the others have said, you're wrong. The developers themselves have said repeatedly, it is all core. Everything mechanical.
As I said, you're free to keep or drop whatever you want in your game, but it doesn't change the fact, and yes it is a fact, that as far as WotC is concerned, it's core.
Someone has many ranks in FORUMN KOMBAT!
Neut: Direct and recent statements by the developers themselves say otherwise.
Thats all well and good with regard to the intent of *some* developers. Unfortunately, developers often disagree with each other. A rule has no authority whatsoever until it is hardcoded into an authoritive rules source, such as a PH or DMG. Even as errata would be fine.
It would clear up rule ambiguity if one of the PHs *explicitly* said: Drow, Kalashtar, etc officially exist as player races in the *default* D&D setting, but to refer to the alternative settings for mechanical info. It would also help if this statement supplied refluff for player races like Kalashtar to suit the default setting.
Celtic: The developers themselves have said repeatedly, it is all core.
When the devs used the word 'core' ...
- They didnt mean the 'Core Product' = 'Core Rules Series', meaning ONLY the PH1, DMG1, and MM1, and nothing else.
- They also didnt mean the 'D&D Core Brand', meaning ONLY the default points-of-light campaign setting.
- They meant some vague third meaning that they just made up.
In fact, they just used the word 'core' because people like the sound of that word, and its entirely unclear exactly what they meant by it. They meant something like 'official' for tournament play. So what.
It is irrelevant if a race or class exists in Eberron or any alternative campaign setting. It still doesnt exist in the default 'D&D campaign setting'. The DM homebrews when importing Eberron material into the default setting - at least until the default *RULES* say otherwise.
It is irrelevant if a race or class exists in Eberron or any alternative campaign setting. It still doesnt exist in the default 'D&D campaign setting'. The DM homebrews when importing Eberron material into the default setting - at least until the default *RULES* say otherwise.
Arcane Power is a book that is part of the default setting, but it contains powers and feats for both the swrodmage and the darklock. Furthermore, it and its martial and divine counterparts, all provide feats that support the so called setting specific races. Divine power even features artwork of a warforged cleric of Erathis, thus proving the races existence within the default setting. This continued refusal of yours to acknowledge that "everything is core" really means exactly what it says is without merit or support.
Ho hum, another core vs CORE row. I don't think that arguments ever going to be settled. Please can you let it lie for now.
Whilst I still think that Gnoll is the frontrunner as the 4th race, maybe we'll get a race back like the Uldras or Hadozee from one of the old environment setting sourcebooks.
Goliaths came from the Races of Stone sourcebook and they've got a heck of a lot of choices if they want to really surprise us.
I think that Dromites will be held back and re-flavoured for the elemental power source and Thri-Kreen will be in the Dark Sun players guide.
I can see more monstrous races being pc races as otherwise we're going to get over run like 3.5 became (with 4 races in every new PHB).
Personally, I want Hobgoblins. They're a well organized race, easily re fluffed a bit towards Unalighned. (Plus I like the idea of a Hobgoblin empire run along Romanic lines).
Celtic: The developers themselves have said repeatedly, it is all core.
When the devs used the word 'core' ...
- They didnt mean the 'Core Product' = 'Core Rules Series', meaning ONLY the PH1, DMG1, and MM1, and nothing else.
- They also didnt mean the 'D&D Core Brand', meaning ONLY the default points-of-light campaign setting.
- They meant some vague third meaning that they just made up.
In fact, they just used the word 'core' because people like the sound of that word, and its entirely unclear exactly what they meant by it. They meant something like 'official' for tournament play. So what.
It is irrelevant if a race or class exists in Eberron or any alternative campaign setting. It still doesnt exist in the default 'D&D campaign setting'. The DM homebrews when importing Eberron material into the default setting - at least until the default *RULES* say otherwise.
Again, wrong. The developers said core because it applies to the default game. All the rules and mechanics of the EPG and FRPG apply to the default DnD game, just as much as the rules in the PHB1 & 2.
But you know what? The people whining that we've disrupted the thread have a point. I'm never going to convince you you're wrong, no matter how much WotC itself disagrees with you, and you're never going to convince me I'm wrong, because WotC agrees with me. So I'm going to drop this. You want to continue being wrong? Whatever. I just hope you don't convince any gullible fools that you're right.
What developers say, isnt the same thing as rules. Rules are rules. Celtic, you are wrong on this point.
Celtic: The developers said core because it applies to the default game.
Find me the rules that say, 'Everything is core'. Oh, thats right! They dont exist.
If the word 'core' in the sense that developers used it meant anything at all, then this important word would be clearly defined in the rules. It isnt because it doesnt exist in the rules.
Tharag: The swordmage and darklock get expanded coverage in Arcane Power, a "core" book.
I agree this is legally ambiguous. The Power books use the 'D&D' Core campaign setting. And yet they include flavor that only applies to alternative campaign settings.
It would be nice to have some authoritative clarification.
Here is the test case that would resolve all ambiguity.
Does a DM have to use houserules to allow the Drow player-character race in the official default setting, or does a DM have to use houserules to ban the Drow race?
Is disallowing the Drow race exactly the same thing as disallowing the Human race?
Does the Drow and Human have the exact same autoritative rules status?
None of the Eberron or FR races count as 'homebrewed' in the CB. Besides stating which book they are from, like everything else in the CB, they don't have any sort of warning that youare going 'outside core'. This further supports their desicion that everything is core.
Also, Warforged officially exist in PoL, via MM (both playable and monster stats) and the initial warforged article in dragon.
Its not like the setting book mechanics are that alien though to the setting, except maybe spellscars and dragonmarks. PoL has drow, there's nothing FR specific about Genasai, it also has Doppelgangers, who have apparently officially been replaced by Changelings, and the aforementioned Warforged article has fluff for WF in PoL. The only race that seems to loose all its "umph" outside its setting is the Kalashtar, as Quori don't exist outside Eberron (do the Quori even have stats inthe ECS?). Im surprised Wizards hasn't given us an ecology of the Kalastar article to help mend the situation with them.
What developers say, isnt the same thing as rules. Rules are rules. Celtic, you are wrong on this point.
Celtic: The developers said core because it applies to the default game.
Find me the rules that say, 'Everything is core'. Oh, thats right! They dont exist.
If the word 'core' in the sense that developers used it meant anything at all, then this important word would be clearly defined in the rules. It isnt because it doesnt exist in the rules.
From Bill Slavicsek, Ampersand, Dragon 375
Officially Core
In case you missed the memo, or if we haven’t been
as clear as I think we have (which is a distinct possibility),
I wanted to make sure I put this out there
for D&D Insiders everywhere to read and digest.
(Readers are kind of like gelatinous cubes in that
regard.) Everything that appears through the online
magazines that make up part of your D&D Insider
subscription is official D&D material and part of the
core rules of the game. For the first time in the history
of D&D, the gatekeepers of D&D creative content
(namely, myself and my R&D team) oversee all creative
expressions of D&D. If it appears in a novel or a
physical game product or in an issue of digital Dragon
or Dungeon, it goes through the same process. It gets
concepted or approved as a concept by my team. It
gets designed by my team or by a freelancer (which
includes new freelancers submitting material through
the digital magazines for the first time). It gets developed
by my team (which means it undergoes rigorous
testing and power balancing and other mechanical
adjustments). It gets edited by my team or by a freelancer.
It goes through a final check (usually by me or
one of the managers on my team). And then it finds a
home in a product or a digital magazine. That makes
everything you see here official and core. That was
one of the goals for the new edition of the game, and I
love the way the process has come together.
There you go. It's all CORE. You're wrong. You want to argue with Bill and the rest of WotC til you're blue in the face, go ahead. But it won't change the fact that you're wrong and too pig headed to admit it.
What developers say, isnt the same thing as rules. Rules are rules. Celtic, you are wrong on this point.
Celtic: The developers said core because it applies to the default game.
Find me the rules that say, 'Everything is core'. Oh, thats right! They dont exist.
If the word 'core' in the sense that developers used it meant anything at all, then this important word would be clearly defined in the rules. It isnt because it doesnt exist in the rules.
From Bill Slavicsek, Ampersand, Dragon 375
Officially Core
In case you missed the memo, or if we haven’t been
as clear as I think we have (which is a distinct possibility),
I wanted to make sure I put this out there
for D&D Insiders everywhere to read and digest.
(Readers are kind of like gelatinous cubes in that
regard.) Everything that appears through the online
magazines that make up part of your D&D Insider
subscription is official D&D material and part of the
core rules of the game. For the first time in the history
of D&D, the gatekeepers of D&D creative content
(namely, myself and my R&D team) oversee all creative
expressions of D&D. If it appears in a novel or a
physical game product or in an issue of digital Dragon
or Dungeon, it goes through the same process. It gets
concepted or approved as a concept by my team. It
gets designed by my team or by a freelancer (which
includes new freelancers submitting material through
the digital magazines for the first time). It gets developed
by my team (which means it undergoes rigorous
testing and power balancing and other mechanical
adjustments). It gets edited by my team or by a freelancer.
It goes through a final check (usually by me or
one of the managers on my team). And then it finds a
home in a product or a digital magazine. That makes
everything you see here official and core. That was
one of the goals for the new edition of the game, and I
love the way the process has come together.
There you go. It's all CORE. You're wrong. You want to argue with Bill and the rest of WotC til you're blue in the face, go ahead. But it won't change the fact that you're wrong and too pig headed to admit it.
Note that Dragon Magazine is considered a Rules Source, so the above can be taken as a rule.
I'd like to see Grippli, but I highly doubt they'll be in.
Illumians would be interesting, but I thought MotP said they had all been killed or something like that?
If we go with the theme of options and variety... Wildens have a strong connection to nature, so having a race which fills the opposite end of the spectrum would be interesting. On second thought, I suppose that would sorta be what Warforged already are. Hmm...
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Catfolk.
Everything that appears through the online magazines that make up part of your D&D Insider subscription is official D&D material and part of the core rules of the game.
Again. The above use of the word 'core' has no definition. And no meaning.
It obviously doesnt mean the 'Core Rules'/'Core Essentials', meaning the PH1-DMG1-MM1 only.
It also doesnt mean the 'D&D Core campaign setting'/default points-of-light setting, since the Dragon Magazine may also have articles concerning the non-Core Eberron FR and DS settings.
Is Eberron now 'default core'?
If two people debate an unclear D&D rule, and one person has a D&DI subscription and another person doesnt, whos interpretation is more 'official'? Is Dragon Magazine the final authority. Is it always right? Will Dragon Magazine always update itself with errata to make sure it remains the highest authority to resolve unclear rules?
When the multitude of D&D products have rules that conflict with eachother, how does one resolve the conflicts 'officially'. Are there no final authorities that decide what is or isnt official? In other words ... is nothing core?
Rules sources conflict with eachother. So when they do, which is authoritative? Is everything authoritative? In other words, is nothing authoritative? Is it pure anarchy? Are there no rules except DM whim? So nothing is core?
The truth is, the word 'core' has absolutely no meaning whatsoever.
If two people debate an unclear D&D rule, and one person has a D&DI subscription and another person doesnt, whos interpretation is more 'official'? Is Dragon Magazine the final authority. Is it always right? Will Dragon Magazine always update itself with errata to make sure it remains the highest authority to resolve unclear rules?]
The D+D Insider Compendium is Always Right(tm).
It includes all rule sources, both paper and electronic, and is constantly being updated with the latest erratta.
If something is in the Compendium, it is usable as it is written in the compendium. Declaring content that is in the compendium to be unusable is as much a houserule as writing new content.
Rules sources conflict with eachother. So when they do, which is authoritative? Is everything authoritative? In other words, is nothing authoritative? Is it pure anarchy? Are there no rules except DM whim? So nothing is core?
'Everything is core.' I would percieve this to mean that new trumps old. Evidence of this can be found by comparing PHB2 and MM2 to the rules which preceded them in PHB1 and MM1. So, yes, I would say that -in a sense- DDI is the 'highest authority in the land' so to speak. If you're someone who plays without access to DDI, whatever the most recent product you have is would be the most official; beyond that*, it's the DM's call.
*Keep in mind that, as a DM, you're free to rule something differently and make house rules.
Good grief. Are you intentionally being obtuse? No, Eberron the setting is not default core. Eberron the rules and mechanics are. Which is what we, and the developers, keep saying. Everything mechanics and rules-wise is core, unless it's superceded by a later source, aka Errata.
Oh, look, a delightful game of "Let's Move the Goalposts!" What fun!
Oh, look, a delightful game of "Let's Move the Goalposts!" What fun!
Naw, it is more of an Illusory Terrian sort of thing.
Celtic: Good grief. Are you intentionally being obtuse?
No, Im calling attention to the fact this important issue requires explicit official clarification.
I agree with Anubis, making the Compendium the 'supreme court' of rules clarification, is probably the best way to go. The Compendium is comprehensive, centralizing, easy to update, errata, and expand, and has other helpful qualifications, such as designers using it to build their latest creations during R&D.
The Compendium also works well with Jonny Angels suggestion for the policy to make the most recent rules supercedes previous rules sources.
Id also suggest, all mechanics are official and authoritatively binding, regardless of the campaign setting. So, Eberron mechanics officially exist in the 'default' D&D setting. But. All flavor is strictly optional regardless of the campaign setting and isnt authoritatively binding. So, DMs and players can reflavor anything in any way and still remain 'official'.
These policies are pretty much the direction D&D is heading anyway, but the rules themselves need to state these explicitly.
As far as 'moving the goal posts', that is what evolution is. The rules themselves should strongly encourage DMs to ban whatever rules dont suit an individual campaign setting, but at the same time make it clear, when DMs ban material, their campaign settings are no longer official. Thus DMs dont have to have the latest rules sources in their campaign, but by not buying the latest products their campaigns are defacto banning those products, thus their campaigns are less official than DMs who keep upto date. This caveat isnt a big deal, because anyone with a D&DI subscription and access to the Compendium can easily and instantly keep upto speed with the latest official rulings.
So far we have an overly physical race - Str/Con, another pretty physical race Con/Wis, and a striker type dude Dex/Wis. I'm guessing we're looking at someone that has good mental stats or at the very least boosts intelligence just to fill all the archetypes.
As far as 'moving the goal posts', that is what evolution is.
Id also suggest, all mechanics are official and authoritatively binding, regardless of the campaign setting. So, Eberron mechanics officially exist in the 'default' D&D setting. But. All flavor is strictly optional regardless of the campaign setting and isnt authoritatively binding. So, DMs and players can reflavor anything in any way and still remain 'official'.These policies are pretty much the direction D&D is heading anyway, but the rules themselves need to state these explicitly.
It's not just where D&D is headed, it's where D&D already is and has been since the start of 4e (and most of 3e, though less officially). Not only have the authors at WotC continuations expressed this stance (and really how much more official does it get then from the mouths of the people responsible for creating the game), but both the PH1 and DM1 basically spell out as much.
I am making a Badger race, I will submit it soon. It will be wonderful and burrow-y.
I am making a Badger race, I will submit it soon. It will be wonderful and burrow-y.
Please forgive me. I have no choice.
"Badgers? Badgers?! We don't need no STEENKING BADGERS!!"
So far we have an overly physical race - Str/Con, another pretty physical race Con/Wis, and a striker type dude Dex/Wis. I'm guessing we're looking at someone that has good mental stats or at the very least boosts intelligence just to fill all the archetypes.
\
Agreed. I think we'll get another Int/Cha or Int/Dex race. Possibly the fabled Int/Con race, but I doubt that they would put three con bonus races in a book with only 4 races.
I am making a Badger race, I will submit it soon. It will be wonderful and burrow-y.
I love you.
I am making a Badger race, I will submit it soon. It will be wonderful and burrow-y.
How many of them can fit in a TU-16?
Agreed. I think we'll get another Int/Cha.
I hope the 'Tulani Eladrin' becomes an Int-Cha player character race.
Counting Changelings we got three diferent INT/CHA race, I'd be interesting in a INT/WIS race... then against that would be too psionic too >.> hmmm
I'm still betting on a small race.
That or Horseshoecrabfolks :p maybe I should submit them...
OOH maybe I could make them small sized. Hardy little ankle biters :p
Tharag: It's not just where D&D is headed, it's where D&D already is.
Heh. Apparently the designers of the Cleric didnt get the memo about spiritual fluff being optional.
Tharag: It's not just where D&D is headed, it's where D&D already is.
Heh. Apparently the designers of the Cleric didnt get the memo about spiritual fluff being optional.
What do you mean by that??
Heh. Apparently the designers of the Cleric didnt get the memo about spiritual fluff being optional.
Sorry, the only one missing any memos has pretty much always been you, but we've been down this road before, no need to derail this thread any further.
What do you mean by that??
Better not to ask, but if you must ... (link)
That or Horseshoecrabfolks :p maybe I should submit them...
OOH maybe I could make them small sized. Hardy little ankle biters :p
omg, I'd nearly forgotten about those. XD
That or Horseshoecrabfolks :p maybe I should submit them...
OOH maybe I could make them small sized. Hardy little ankle biters :p
omg, I'd nearly forgotten about those. XD
You think I should be serious about these guys and submit them for the magazine?
That or Horseshoecrabfolks :p maybe I should submit them...
OOH maybe I could make them small sized. Hardy little ankle biters :p
omg, I'd nearly forgotten about those. XDYou think I should be serious about these guys and submit them for the magazine?
Hellllllllllllllllz yeah. Coming up with a solid name might be a little tough, but I think conceptually its a totally sweet idea.
Tharag: It's not just where D&D is headed, it's where D&D already is.
Heh. Apparently the designers of the Cleric didnt get the memo about spiritual fluff being optional.
What do you mean by that??
Don't get him started again ...
With Richard Baker's blog effectively eliminating the Tri-kreen competition, the Gnoll, while no more likely than it was, is that much more likely than anything else.
For those who don't feel like detangling convoluted sentances... The frontrunner is still Gnoll, but Tri-Kreens in DSPG means no Tri-Kreen in PH3. The next most likely race seems to be some form of goblinoid, (long overdue for the ebberon connection) rather than a "psionic race" that is both reconizably psionic, yet less so than the Githzeri. (however, if the goblinoid is Goblin, well, Blues meet both criteria.)
To those who were even remotely interested in said badger race: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20987985/[Race]_Gravelochs_Here_be_Badgers_errr_PEACH_Whatever_that_means
Comment and critique would be appreciated!
With Richard Baker's blog effectively eliminating the Tri-kreen competition, the Gnoll, while no more likely than it was, is that much more likely than anything else.
For those who don't feel like detangling convoluted sentances... The frontrunner is still Gnoll, but Tri-Kreens in DSPG means no Tri-Kreen in PH3. The next most likely race seems to be some form of goblinoid, (long overdue for the ebberon connection) rather than a "psionic race" that is both reconizably psionic, yet less so than the Githzeri. (however, if the goblinoid is Goblin, well, Blues meet both criteria.)
Hey how dare you forget the Formians?!? They have just as much evidence going for them as the supposed front runner the gnoll! :p
All the evidence is circomstantial, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The Gnoll was considered important enough to be the first non-setting-inspired Playing (Race) article. However, it was not reprinted in the Dragon Annual, Same as the minotaur.
In paralell with the minotaur, art of a Gnoll with epic gear was seen in the Adventurer's Vault- as gnolls are a heroic tier monster, this makes it an unlikely pairing for an NPC. The minotaur, in comparison, is seen in Primal Power, was the SECOND (nci) Playing (Race) article, and is known to be in PH3 only by the coverart.
In the Yeenoghu article, it is mentioned that the demonlord did not create the gnoll race, only corrupted them from the service of a lesser god. Thus, gnolls are only chaotic evil under the guidance of a demon.
Likewise, Ebberon supports Gnolls as members of the Znir Pact, mercinaries and sellswords outside Droaam.
Gnolls are something of a primal race, but in an entirely different way than Minotaurs and Wilden. Classwise, they match the themes of the Ranger and Seeker, their Clawfighter can be made to interact wonderfully with Monk and Assassin. (either by modifying the Claw Fighter feat, or by giving the monk the Ki Focus implement)
What do you have on Fomaridins?
Here is my idea of what they should make for classes
the new classes are as follows:
Money Swindlers- the ones who make the price for the book
RPG Liars-the ones who say they will do something then dont
Game Destroyers-the ones who created magic the gathering
Non-Gamer Bussiness Men-WoTC Designers
wishful thinking
Edit: Ack, don't mind me, I'm just stupid.
Non-Gamer Bussiness Men-WoTC Designerswishful thinking
Even as a joke, this is in bad taste. It's a known fact that most of the good folks working directly on the game, AKA design/development, both play and love the game.
If they release Gnolls, I'll be happy.
And happily abandon my current character to stat up a Gnoll Paladin/Barbarian/Great-Weapon Fighter/Someone with a really big sword.
And I shall call him Rek Ashmane, and he shall return to 4th edition once more!
If they release Gnolls, I'll be happy.
And happily abandon my current character to stat up a Gnoll Paladin/Barbarian/Great-Weapon Fighter/Someone with a really big sword.
And I shall call him Rek Ashmane, and he shall return to 4th edition once more!
*points at Playing Gnolls article*
If they release Gnolls, I'll be happy.
And happily abandon my current character to stat up a Gnoll Paladin/Barbarian/Great-Weapon Fighter/Someone with a really big sword.
And I shall call him Rek Ashmane, and he shall return to 4th edition once more!
*points at Playing Gnolls article*
Where's my racial paragon path! where's my feat support! *cries*
I think it unlikely, but I want to see goblinoids(especially goblins and hobgoblins) as player races.
I would love to see goblinoids. kobolds too for thst matter. But my money is on gnolls, and I sincerely hope they get fixed. this would also explain the no more evil races mentality: with two monster races already the githyanki, while distinct, are too similar to the githzerai to justify another usually evil but not this one story.
Here's another unlikely, but possible race: Wemics. They are a centauroid race that is medium in size and very primal. I'm not sure what their stat combo would be, but I they would have a tendency to be mostly barbarians with a smattering of the other primal classes in their tribe.
I doubt it would be Wemics as I feel that Bariaur are a stronger possiblity than they are. And I think it's highly unlikely that it will be Bariaur anyways.
I certainly hope they have the Goblinoid races, or Orcs or Kobolds as races soon. They would probably be my choice first before even the Gnolls as a race. But there's already that article which is an issue. I'd prefer it if it was the Elan also, since I feel it's about time we have an Abberant origin race.
I'd prefer it if it was the Elan also, since I feel it's about time we have an Abberant origin race.
While I agree with a desire for an aberrant race, and given the theme of PH3, now seems as good a time as any, however, I think elan would be a poor choice. The first race with an aberrant origin should look and feel alien (maybe it really is time for the horseshoecrabfolk), elans however don't really fill either criteria. Also elans are very much a psionic race, and we already know that the githzari is the most psionicly attuned race in the PH3.
I'd like to see blue slime as a player race.
Aren't Aberrant the bad guys though? Wilden and Psionic power arose as a direct reaction against the taint of the Far Realm. I can't see a Primal Character or a Wilden (or worse a Primal class Wilden :p ) work with an Aberrant race, even if they are really just an accidental by product... wouldn't their mere prescence be a taint in reality??
Aren't Aberrant the bad guys though? Wilden and Psionic power arose as a direct reaction against the taint of the Far Realm. I can't see a Primal Character or a Wilden (or worse a Primal class Wilden :p ) work with an Aberrant race, even if they are really just an accidental by product... wouldn't their mere prescence be a taint in reality??
In the case of the Elan being Abberant creatures, they are Humans made Abberant by ritual, and likely a case of "Fighting Fire With Fire".
I thought the psionic power source has been rewritten AS the abberant power source? Far realm corruption causes psionic powers, and the world also makes psionic powers to counter it.
Humans but made different by a ritual? Meh. We alrady got Tiefling, Shadar-kai and Kalasthar that were once humans, I don't think we need more.
I thought the psionic power source has been rewritten AS the abberant power source? Far realm corruption causes psionic powers, and the world also makes psionic powers to counter it.
Exactly... a 'fight fire with fire' race isn't quite needed since the whole power source exists mostly for that purpose.
We always need more human-like races, since most races we got so far are quite human-like, and they're more likely to be included in all campaigns because they're human-like.
And just because a race was formerly Human doesn't mean they aren't interesting or are like all of the other races. Elan have an alien physiology. They also happen to be the pet race of at least one of the designers, so because of that they will come out in some form.
And just because a race was formerly Human doesn't mean they aren't interesting or are like all of the other races. Elan have an alien physiology. They also happen to be the pet race of at least one of the designers, so because of that they will come out in some form.
Quite possibly, though for me personally there are more interesting ritually transformed humans. Notably the illumians, who actually have a culture and racial heritage, unlike elans who seem to have little more than an Illuminati-like secret organization. Also from a marketing standpoint, illumians have the distinct advantage of actually having a uniquely identifying visual characteristic, unlike the completely human looking elan.
Anyway, we already know from Manual of the Plains the illumians exist in 4e. Between illumians covering the magically transformed human and kalashtar covering the psionicly augmented human, I'm not sure what unique shtick the elan would have left. Elans are immortal, but deva cover that concept, and immortality is mostly meaningless in the course of a single campaign unless all the PCs are. The only thing they've got left after that is being an aberrant race, and given their perfectly human appearance they donlt seem like such a great example race for that quality, I'd rather see Eberron's half-daelkyr with their symbiotic twin.
I don't really have a problem with elans, but I do find them rather bland. All of their racial qualities are done by someones else, and better (IMO). I suppose that they are unique in that they blend all those different qualities together, but that just makes them feel like mutts to me, which is also done better by someone else (mongrelfolk).
You've missed an important part in that note in the Manual. Specifically, that in 4e illumians are a race that resembles humans, given thier words by Ioun. They're a distict race of divine origin.
Even if this wasn't there, there's a big difference between "I'm a Language" and "I've managed to get rid of my own Mortality".
It's worth repeating that this is what makes Elan a unique race: They created themselves. No messing around with gods, primordials or primal spirits. Each and every elan is only one because they chose to become one.
When we add to this the fact that thier racial abilities are completely different to the Deva and Kalashtar and we have a race that is wonderfully distinct.
It's worth repeating that this is what makes Elan a unique race: They created themselves.
To some degree that too is a problem. Elan aren't so much a race as they are a cabal of individuals that share a few secret rites. They have no culture or heritage. They're more like an organization.
As such I just don't see them making a very compelling race. What might work, and very well, would be to make them a bloodline race, like the vistani or dhampire.
Elan sond more like a class than a race, honestly. I mean, that crystal being shown earlier? That could be a Wilden Elan.
Or perhaps a heritage feat, like the vistani. They also become what they are through a ritual, but becase it's a ritual, they arn't limited to being Humans and Halflings anymore.
Humans arn't special anymore. They don't get a monopoly. Can you imagine a Dragon who became an Elan? (they know rituals, after all...)
I second the bloodline idea.
The problem with having elan as a class or bloodline is that the abilities that define them (creature type and sustenance) tread on the toes of races. Look at Warforged for example: for them becoming an Elan would be completely pointless.
That said, there's no reason that we can't have non-human elan any more, and there's no reason they can't have an independant appearance either.
The idea that Elan look like thier old species but made out of crystal makes me all tingly inside :D
The problem with having elan as a class or bloodline is that the abilities that define them (creature type and sustenance) tread on the toes of races. Look at Warforged for example: for them becoming an Elan would be completely pointless.
I wouldn't see it as a problem. There really isn't any reason that the initial bloodline feat couldn't change the creature's origin, though honestly I don't really see the elan being aberrant as an essential aspect of the "race", especially as aberrant doesn't really mean the same thing in 4e that it did in 3e. In 3e aberrant meant any creature with a strange anatomy, but in 4e aberrant specifically means from or related to the Far Realm.
As for sustenance, the need to eat is about as important in the average campaign as age is. Players might track rations in low heroic or when in exceptionally barren wastes, but otherwise it's one of those details that most groups seem to quietly ignore.
Let's think on this: The prime material plane is generally unaligned with a large smattering of other alignments. The astral planes is generally good with notable exceptions (e.g. Hell). The chaotic planes is generally evil and unaligned (I can't think of any notable exceptions for good off the top of my head). Now, let's look at what we know of the Far Realm. 1) Aberrants come from the far realm. 2) So far, all aberrants are evil. & 3) We don't know enough about the Far Realm to say that there are no good or unaligned aberrants. If there is going to be an aberrant PC race, they probably will be escapees from the Far Realm or an aberrant (mostly) unaligned race bent on exploring anything and everything outside of the Far Realm. Think of gnomes and fomorians. Even though there are still gnomes that are enslaved by the fomorians, there are also gnome escapees.
The fourth race? Why, Furlings, of course.
Except that the mere prescence of an aberrant creature is usually a bad thing. The Far Realm is like a disease that corrupts the cosmos.
The fourth race? Why, Furlings, of course.
You sir are BRILLIANT!
Ooo...this will be the year of the Spacejammer (Planes Above). So...Swashbuckling Mind Flayers? Then again they might just shove that race into Planes Above itself.
There really isn't any reason that the initial bloodline feat couldn't change the creature's origin
I can't agree with this. Altering a creatures's origin is iirc the domain of Epic Destinies, and is simply too big a change to be contained within a feat. Look at the Dhampir and Revenant to see what I mean; one adds flavour to your old race, the other overwrites it.
though honestly I don't really see the elan being aberrant as an essential aspect of the "race", especially as aberrant doesn't really mean the same thing in 4e that it did in 3e. In 3e aberrant meant any creature with a strange anatomy, but in 4e aberrant specifically means from or related to the Far Realm.
This bit I agree with in part - the Elan doesn't necessarily need to be an aberrant. However, they do need a type other than natural, if only to grant them immortality. Immortal or Animate would seem to fit well.
Except that the mere prescence of an aberrant creature is usually a bad thing. The Far Realm is like a disease that corrupts the cosmos.
The term "vaccination" comes to mind. A small group of aberrants that hunt thier own kind, or a group of humans who have imbued themselves with the power of the Far in order to grant them immunity to the corrupting effects of it's denizens :D
Also, you have a nice little roleplaying hook, in that benevolant aberrants are trying to defend something that they destroy by thier very presence. Always fun
Ooo...this will be the year of the Spacejammer (Planes Above). So...Swashbuckling Mind Flayers? Then again they might just shove that race into Planes Above itself.
Yo ho ho and a bottle of Cereberal Extract?
Edit--------
Why doesn't the board want to process my smilies?
There really isn't any reason that the initial bloodline feat couldn't change the creature's origin
I can't agree with this. Altering a creatures's origin is iirc the domain of Epic Destinies, and is simply too big a change to be contained within a feat. Look at the Dhampir and Revenant to see what I mean; one adds flavour to your old race, the other overwrites it.
An origin is an origin, one is as good as another. There are plenty of races with origins other than natural, so there's no reason why changing a creatures origin should be exclusive to epic teir.
though honestly I don't really see the elan being aberrant as an essential aspect of the "race", especially as aberrant doesn't really mean the same thing in 4e that it did in 3e. In 3e aberrant meant any creature with a strange anatomy, but in 4e aberrant specifically means from or related to the Far Realm.
This bit I agree with in part - the Elan doesn't necessarily need to be an aberrant. However, they do need a type other than natural, if only to grant them immortality. Immortal or Animate would seem to fit well.
However again no change in origin is needed, yes immortals and animates are ageless, but there's little reason why an initial elan bloodline feat couldn't include the sentence "You no longer age". As I've said before, being immortal is mostly fluff. The mechanical results are unlikely to play a part in the typical campaign unless every PC is immortal. A typical campaign just doesn't last enough in game time for immortality to be a meaningful trait. When all is said and done all immortality does is grant the satisfaction of knowing that your character will live on indefinitely after the campaign is over.
I'm betting the fourth race will have an INT bonus.
We got STR/CON, CON/WIS and DEX/WIS. Ideally to cover all six attributes we'd need a new INT/CHA race.
Though just to cover all the attributes isn't a good reason I still think we should see a book smart or clever race, its an archetype missing from the lineup so far.
My guess would be a reworked Illumian, since they have alreadybeen mentioned in the Manual of the Planes, but there's absolutely no evidence for that beyond a single line.
I thought the same, then I saw the articles in Dragon for Dhampyr and Vistani. Now I think that the "illumians" will only be a new kind of bloodline feats (remember that in 3rd illumians were only humans who were imbued with "word magic").
I don't think that the gnolls will show up in PHB3, there's alredy a "monstrous race".
So, we have a "used-to-be monstrous race" with minotaurs, a psionic race with githyanki, and a planar race with wildrens. I think that WotC will put something completely different and new as fourth race.
I don't think that the gnolls will show up in PHB3, there's alredy a "monstrous race".
So how do you explain the circomstantial evidence mass?
An origin is an origin, one is as good as another. There are plenty of races with origins other than natural, so there's no reason why changing a creatures origin should be exclusive to epic teir.
Just because they're equal doesn't mean they should be easily altered, for the same reason Elves shouldn't be allowed to swap out thier Accuracy for a dragonborn's Breath; it completely alters the character of the race. This isn't something that really belongs in a feat.
However again no change in origin is needed, yes immortals and animates are ageless, but there's little reason why an initial elan bloodline feat couldn't include the sentence "You no longer age". As I've said before, being immortal is mostly fluff. The mechanical results are unlikely to play a part in the typical campaign unless every PC is immortal. A typical campaign just doesn't last enough in game time for immortality to be a meaningful trait. When all is said and done all immortality does is grant the satisfaction of knowing that your character will live on indefinitely after the campaign is over.
Having an origin that grants immortality also grants immunity to a couple of traps which work by aging the victim, or exposing him to vistas of the infinite. But I'll agree this isn't that important.
Again, what's more important is what origin means for a character. A Natural creature that doesn't age is still Natural. They're products of the natural world, and an intrinsic part of it. By changing the origin we're saying "this person is no longer what he once was". They become something new, not just an augmented version of something old.
If we go for immortal, we're saying "I am intrinsically bound to a realm of thought and wonder, the home of dreams." Aberrant says "I am a creature beyond imagination, a denizen of the twisted realms hidden behind the flimsy veil you naively call reality". An animate says "I am a creation, a made thing, an unchanging expression of intent, the victory of will over nature."
"You no longer age" doesn't even come close.
So how do you explain the circomstantial evidence mass?
I do not think you know what "Circumstantial" means.
An origin is an origin, one is as good as another. There are plenty of races with origins other than natural, so there's no reason why changing a creatures origin should be exclusive to epic teir.
Just because they're equal doesn't mean they should be easily altered, for the same reason Elves shouldn't be allowed to swap out thier Accuracy for a dragonborn's Breath; it completely alters the character of the race. This isn't something that really belongs in a feat.
It wouldn't be just letting the race swap its traits, it would be at the cost of a feat. Note the the revenant has a whole series of feats that let it acquire some of the traits of whatever race it was in life. Having a hypothetical Elan bloodline feat change the creature's origin keyword would be much the same, only in reverse.
Furthermore it wouldn't just be at the cost of an ordinary feat, but at the cost of a bloodline feat. Bloodlines aren't like ordinary feats. They carry a much great great weight, much like multiclass feats. These feats grant characters new powers without requiring them to swap out an existent power. Something as minor as changing a keyword would be downright insignificant.
If we go for immortal, we're saying "I am intrinsically bound to a realm of thought and wonder, the home of dreams." Aberrant says "I am a creature beyond imagination, a denizen of the twisted realms hidden behind the flimsy veil you naively call reality". An animate says "I am a creation, a made thing, an unchanging expression of intent, the victory of will over nature.""You no longer age" doesn't even come close.
Again, the concept isn't just to give the would be elan a feat that makes them ageless. It's to make them part of a bloodline. Being a dhampire or a vistani is about so much more than gaining a few pseudo-racial powers and abilities. It's about becoming a part of a heritage and/or culture that makes you distinctly different than an ordinary human, elf, dwarf, or any other race.
I have no basis whatsoever for my guess so here goes. Svirfneblin. It needs a short race and what better than the deep gnomes?
I have no basis whatsoever for my guess so here goes. Svirfneblin. It needs a short race and what better than the deep gnomes?
But the core fluff for Gnomes already subsumed the Svirfneblin, IMO. Gnomes deep underground, enslaved by the Formarians of the Feydark?