Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the_fan Sep 08, 2009 1:45:07	www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20... Bahamut! And as a leader that means you won't be fighting him by himself. How in the world are you supposed to win that? Kinda surprised we're getting stats for him. I would've thought he was too powerful and too good for most parties to ever fight. And not just him, looks like the Old Man with the Canaries and the actual Platinum Dragon form will have different stats.
#2 anubis_reynard Sep 08, 2009 1:50:10	Once we know what Bahamut's dragon form stats are, we can deduce the power of the primordial that took Bahamut and Tiamat working together to slay.
#3 Mirtek Sep 08, 2009 2:13:26	Actually I was long expecting that the max. level they would stat a monster at would be lowered. They said that it didn't make sense to stat something more powerfull than lvl 35 solo as it would be undefeatable by level 30 PCs. Since then three important things changed: a) expertise for a +3 to hit b) solo defenses lowered by 2 points with MM2 c) solo hitpoints lowered by 20% with MM2 a) and b) means that we now are able to hit a theoretical lvl 40 monster as "easy" as we were able to hit a lvl 35 back then. In combination with c) this means that we're now able to fight monsters a little (lvl 40 still would be suicide) above lvl 35 almost (it might have the same defenses/hp than a lvl 35 monster of old, but still a better to hit chance and deals more damage) as "easily" as a lvl 35 solo build under the old solo-rules. So I was expecting it to only be a matter of time until they would release a lvl 36 or even lvl 37 creature (I think that lvl 38+ is still out of questions even after these three changes) Once we know what Bahamut's dragon form stats are, we can deduce the power of the primordial that took Bahamut and Tiamat working together to slay I don't expect his actual level to change in dragon form. He'll surely get a different size and different attacks, but he'll still be level 36 solo.
#4 GMforPowergamers Sep 08, 2009 2:13:43	to give an idea of how huge that is: half level 15 Highest stat mod 10 highest prof bonus 3 highest enchantment 6 grand total +34 to hit (+37 with an expertise feat) note: I put this after the add up to not start an argument here... need a 18 (15) to hit... if a character starts with a 16 stat, and does not have a class bonus to hit or stats and doesn't have expertise...this drops to half level 15 Highest stat mod 7 highest prof bonus 3 highest enchantment 6 +31...only a 20 hits and it doesn't crit... I think this also shows why it is the top to stat, an avrage PC can not beat it...and even an optimized one needs to get lucky...now imagin Bane and moradin who are said to be 38-40th level...now imagin +2-4 to those defs... then again...that +31 team of 4 with a warlord (soldier of faith? avenger multi clas) droping oath, having a luck blade, and the amulat that allows rerolls has a good chance of landing 'Leading the Attack" so it is doable...just hard...     Note: there is no xp listed...it could easily be an 'ally' leader that is ment to fight witht he PCs against BBA threats...
#5 KoboldAvenger Sep 08, 2009 9:40:45	I seem to remember one of the articles last month having the small clause of "What if, Bahamut died and was your God".  I think that's pretty well meant for a campaign where you have to take on things bigger than Bahamut, since it killed him and you're destined to be reborn as Bahamut.
#6 Janx_14 Sep 09, 2009 10:00:55	I seem to remember one of the articles last month having the small clause of "What if, Bahamut died and was your God".  I think that's pretty well meant for a campaign where you have to take on things bigger than Bahamut, since it killed him and you're destined to be reborn as Bahamut. I believe Scales of War will evetually be tackling this, as the 'big bad' appears to be Tiamat, who is having a dark ritual performed which will doom bahamut.
#7 GMforPowergamers Sep 10, 2009 19:59:06	imagin him, and a 3 or 4 person party of level 29-30 takeing on tiamat... then agian imagin the look on your party fighter face when tiamat is on the ropes, and bloodies (and disincoptaitas) the old man...
#8 blueomega Sep 11, 2009 1:58:59	Ah the fight is only for your characters "Fame" for beating up this god. You don't get exp for beating up this old guy with canaries that float around his head. Though dang, this guy maybe a solo, but he creates his own bodyguards. Also it is kind of hard for me to not to laugh at such a diety as Bahamut. Why one may ask well first, birds fly around his head right? A tad cartoony, no? And that punch of his will also will literally make the Goliath Barbarian see some real stars flying around his head.
#9 JohnLynch Sep 11, 2009 3:18:11	Why one may ask well first, birds fly around his head right? A tad cartoony, no? Nowhere does it say they fly around his head. I'd rule they can be anywhere within 20 squares. And that punch of his will also will literally make the Goliath Barbarian see some real stars flying around his head. I don't see anything cartoony about a daze attack. Can you play up Bahamut as a cartoony character? Definitely. But you could also use these stats for an evil mastermind (ignoring all fluff and change the canaries to ravens/magpies/crows) or an unaligned meddler.
#10 joni-san Sep 11, 2009 5:12:35	Hmmm... You could use his stats for Odin then...
#11 kletian999 Sep 11, 2009 7:14:05	Damn right you could, just reflavor the Gold Dragons to Valkyries to complete the effect.
#12 doctorhook Sep 12, 2009 14:29:24	Ah the fight is only for your characters "Fame" for beating up this god. You don't get exp for beating up this old guy with canaries that float around his head. Though dang, this guy maybe a solo, but he creates his own bodyguards. Also it is kind of hard for me to not to laugh at such a diety as Bahamut. Why one may ask well first, birds fly around his head right? A tad cartoony, no? And that punch of his will also will literally make the Goliath Barbarian see some real stars flying around his head. Maybe you're not aware of this, but the "old man with seven canaries" disguise for Bahamut appeared at least as far back as the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual, first published in 197X.
#13 blueomega Sep 13, 2009 23:04:01	Why one may ask well first, birds fly around his head right? A tad cartoony, no? Nowhere does it say they fly around his head. I'd rule they can be anywhere within 20 squares. And that punch of his will also will literally make the Goliath Barbarian see some real stars flying around his head. I don't see anything cartoony about a daze attack. Can you play up Bahamut as a cartoony character? Definitely. But you could also use these stats for an evil mastermind (ignoring all fluff and change the canaries to ravens/magpies/crows) or an unaligned meddler. To be HIMO I was only talking of how it shows in the art, they do circle around his head forming a crown of sorts (which in cartoons is seen as "dazed" or "stunned"), oh well though valkyrie idea does sound fun. Though to be back on a different topic, I'am guessing bahamut's defense will be in the late 40's early 50's, mostly on AC & Will being somewhere close to 48-51 area, but this is just when I look at tiamat's stats and considering what makes bahamut a strong rival to tiamat. Edit: @ DoctorHook: Yep I am not aware actually if that is how early he showed up as "Old Man With Canaries", I did do research on bahamut a couple days ago but then I never say any detail before of that (my fault I will be honest)
#14 Mirtek Sep 14, 2009 2:19:16	Though to be back on a different topic, I'am guessing bahamut's defense will be in the late 40's early 50's, mostly on AC & Will being somewhere close to 48-51 area, but this is just when I look at tiamat's stats and considering what makes bahamut a strong rival to tiamat. There is no need to guess, follow the link provided in the first post of this thread and you'll can look at Bahamut's stats.
#15 doctorhook Sep 15, 2009 21:18:38	Edit: @ DoctorHook: Yep I am not aware actually if that is how early he showed up as "Old Man With Canaries", I did do research on bahamut a couple days ago but then I never say any detail before of that (my fault I will be honest) For your reference, I'll type out the whole blurb from the book. I'm looking in the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual, 4th Edition*, by Gary Gygax, published August 1979. Word for word and formatted as the orginal text is, here's the bottom paragraph of the entry titled "Platinum Dragon" on page 33: "There are seven huge ancient gold dragons of highest abilities and loyalty who serve as guards, companions, and advisors to Bahamut. He seldom (10%) is without them. (A sage tells of encountering Bahamut in the guise of an old hermit, with seven canaries singing sweetly as they flitted nearby. The sage relates that he would never have known that he was anything other than what he appeared to be except that a group of ogres and trolls happened by much to their sorrow...)" If nothing else, Gary Gygax had a way with words... *Note: It's the "4th Edition" of a 1st Edition AD&D book. In quotations is the printing edition, while underlined is the ruleset edition. Confusing, I know -- but it wasn't called "1st Edition AD&D" at the time, just "AD&D". I hope this has been interesting.
#16 blueomega Sep 15, 2009 22:39:36	@ Mirtek: Right, I was merely guessing what Bahamut would have for defenses when in dragon form. Edit: @ DoctorHook: Yep I am not aware actually if that is how early he showed up as "Old Man With Canaries", I did do research on bahamut a couple days ago but then I never say any detail before of that (my fault I will be honest) For your reference, I'll type out the whole blurb from the book. I'm looking in the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual, 4th Edition*, by Gary Gygax, published August 1979. Word for word and formatted as the orginal text is, here's the bottom paragraph of the entry titled "Platinum Dragon" on page 33: "There are seven huge ancient gold dragons of highest abilities and loyalty who serve as guards, companions, and advisors to Bahamut. He seldom (10%) is without them. (A sage tells of encountering Bahamut in the guise of an old hermit, with seven canaries singing sweetly as they flitted nearby. The sage relates that he would never have known that he was anything other than what he appeared to be except that a group of ogres and trolls happened by much to their sorrow...)" If nothing else, Gary Gygax had a way with words... *Note: It's the "4th Edition" of a 1st Edition AD&D book. In quotations is the printing edition, while underlined is the ruleset edition. Confusing, I know -- but it wasn't called "1st Edition AD&D" at the time, just "AD&D". I hope this has been interesting. Oh yes very much interesting and thank you for the much appreciated information. It is quite interesting to know that lore (also glad they stuck with that for D&D 4th Ed).