So we have a new Wizard class. One of its subclasses is a 'Mage'. Unlike other subclasses, the Mage is a generalist who dabbles in many 'schools' of Arcane magic. Even so, each Mage still selects a particular school to focus on as an area of 'specialization'.
I like the new official nomenclature that distinguishes between the primary and auxillary abilities. The Mage subclass uses:
'Intelligence; Constitution, Wisdom, or Charisma'
A semicolon separates the auxillaries. So for shorthand we can say:
Int;Con
And even:
Int;Con,Wis,Cha
Same goes for races.
I suspect all Wizard subclasses use Int as the primary in order to share class powers, and subclasses vary by the auxillary. For the Mage subclass I guess the following:
Int;Con = Evocation
Int;Wis = Illusion
Int;Cha = Enchantment
Powers list the school as a keyword. I suspect powers will have riders that use a corresponding auxillary ability to boost the description.
So it's really up in the air which secondary will be tied to them, let alone which of the three implements. Actually, I'm seeing Wis tied more to Charms, since forced movement and lockdown seems to be the nature of these charms, which fits more nicely with the built-for-Control-Wizards orbs that have already been released, while the Illusion-based Orbs are built-for-Illusionist-Wizards that use Charisma rather than Wisdom.
Aye, there's the rub: Both Illusions and Charms in the past have ALWAYS been tied to Charisma.
So it's really up in the air which secondary will be tied to them, let alone which of the three implements. Actually, I'm seeing Wis tied more to Charms, since forced movement and lockdown seems to be the nature of these charms, which fits more nicely with the built-for-Control-Wizards orbs that have already been released, while the Illusion-based Orbs are built-for-Illusionist-Wizards that use Charisma rather than Wisdom.
Now the counter-argument would run that illusions can be just as good at guiding movement, by virtue of convincing your foe that an obstacle or something dangerous lays where you want them to move away from. This even had precedent, with phantom bolt being an illusion spell that slides the target. So that argument for Wis could actually apply to either. I'd rather see Cha for charms since charisma = force of personality (and ability to bluff) - very important skills for charms. Wis, meanwhile, can (among other things) affect the wizard's perception and attention to detail - a talent which will prove very useful in making the most realistic illusions. I'm not saying this has to be the argument WotC goes with, but it makes sense, and the Wis argument for charms seems more stretched - Wis -> perception and social intuition (Insight) -> knowing how to manipulate people (Bluff). Well, the logic sounds right, until you see that it implies talent at bluff, which uses charisma. Although I could see it supporting the image of wizards with no patience for social niceties, preferring charm spells over simple diplomacy. Which puts us back at square 1. I only hope that WotC offers an explanation for which ability was paired with which school.
I'm also wondering what happened to wands and dexterity.
I always thought that if the Enchanter Wizard build was made, it would use a wand and Int-Cha.
Look at orbs: divided between supporting Wisdom and supporting Charisma. It has less to do with the implement going with the stat as much as the implement going with the powers that go with the stat.
And Bluff is used primarily for Illusions, rather than for Charms. It could go either way.
Nothing ever sand wands were tied inexhorably to Dexterity.
I always thought that if the Enchanter Wizard build was made, it would use a wand and Int-Cha.
Look at orbs: divided between supporting Wisdom and supporting Charisma. It has less to do with the implement going with the stat as much as the implement going with the powers that go with the stat.
And Bluff is used primarily for Illusions, rather than for Charms. It could go either way.
True. But I see a sense to the wand-Dexterity argument (just look at the original 4e wizard). Moreover, that choice matched the eladrin. And I liked having races get their ability score bonuses to their iconic class: eladrin get Int and Dex and are iconic wand wizards (or Spiral Tower wizards - which can use a longsword like a wand. There's also a heroic tier feat that does that. And that one I know specifies longsword and wand). Of course, this concern can be completely invalidated by Essentials also modifying eladrin racial traits, bringing them in line with PH3 format.
Essential Wizard: 'Mages tend to approach arcane magic with [an even] more scholarly bent than other wizards [who already 'approach spellcasting as a science, training and studying long hours']. The ancient schools started as techniques and methods of training between masters and apprentices and became more institutionalized. Eventually academies of arcane study sprang up in the world and even among the eladrin of the Feywild. In time, single towers devoted to a single [school] gave way to grand academies where illusion was taught alongside evocation. First developed among the eladrin of the Feywild, the enchantment school can bend a creature’s mind to your will. Your enchantment spells befuddle the senses and leave a creature disoriented or open to your suggestions. Spells from this school rarely deal damage, but by allowing you to control your foes for a few precious moments, they can easily turn the tide of battle.'
Wizardry evolved into a form of scholastism. This transracial culture of transmitting magical knowledge even crosses planar boundaries. The Eladrin pioneered the school of Enchantment and apparently continue to exemplify it. The races that pioneered Illusion and Evocation remain anonymous because this Essentials book doesnt list them.
Hypothetically the Gnome could become Int;Wis,Cha - thus great Int;Wis Illusionist Mage Wizards - and come to think of it, great Artificers too.
I suspect the Eladrin will become Int;Cha,Dex . . . Hypothetically the Gnome could become Int;Wis,Cha
i would like to see
eladrin: dex, int or cha
elf: dex, wis or int
drow: dex, cha or wis
I suspect the Eladrin will become Int;Cha,Dex . . . Hypothetically the Gnome could become Int;Wis,Cha
i would like to see
eladrin: dex, int or cha
elf: dex, wis or int
drow: dex, cha or wis
I think eladrin should be int, dex or cha and elf dex, wiz or str. Other thing i would love is if they fix eladrin soldier to the same level of other racial weapon feats (+4 feat bonus to damage with longsword casting spells would be nice
.Pretty sure they said the old races are getting the same treatment. That said, can this please not turn into another thread of (i think this race should be this!), we had plenty of those back around PHBIII and all it'll do is cause you to be annoyed if they dont do it, or didn't choose the ones you chose.
I suspect the Eladrin will become Int;Cha,Dex . . . Hypothetically the Gnome could become Int;Wis,Cha
i would like to see
eladrin: dex, int or cha
elf: dex, wis or int
drow: dex, cha or wis
I think eladrin should be int, dex or cha and elf dex, wiz or str. Other thing i would love is if they fix eladrin soldier to the same level of other racial weapon feats (+4 feat bonus to damage with longsword casting spells would be nice
in addition to fixing the damage levels, i would like to see the following changes to the racial weapon feats:
(A) all such feats either (i) including superior, military and simple weapons of the applicable weapon group or (ii) limited to simple and military--not superior--weapons of the applicable weapon group. here, i am seeking consistency.
(B) revised and expanded group of races:
dwarf (hammer group)
eladrin (light blade group--think of the rapier replacing the longsword)
minotaur (axe group)
elf (bow group)
orc (axe group)
kobold (pick group)
gnoll (flail group)
shifter (spear group)
halfling (sling group)
goliath (two-handed hammers and maces)
dragonborn (heavy blade group)
gnome (crossbow group)
goblinoids (mace group)
necessary additions:
military and/or superior maces
military and/or superior slings
Havok: Eladrin ... light blade group - think of the rapier replacing the longsword
I agree, for the Eladrin the longsword is interesting but problematic.
Im ok with the Eladrin longsword flavor ... but
`I feel the longsword must convey the Eladrins Arcane magical flavor, not Martial mundane flavor.
`Eladrin warriors do well with an Eldritch Knight vibe, with classes like Swordmage, even Monk.
`If the longsword is a racial icon, then Eladrin should magically use their highest ability for the atk and dmg bonuses while using a longsword. Int (like Swordmage) and Dex (like a light weapon) are racially significant. Str is racially irrelevant.
`The racially iconic Eladrin Wizard needs some kind of benefit from the longsword while making typical ranged attacks.
`Eladrin Arcanists need the longsword implement proficiency for free (because its currently useless and adds little benefit except flavor), and use it in place of any implement they know.
The longsword is highly problematic for Eladrin. To serve as a racial icon, its issues need resolution. Otherwise for the sake of streamlining, its best to get rid of the Eladrin longsword. The Eladrin Soldier feat could grant proficiency with both longsword and spear - and done.
I'm probably saying this to be contrary, but I hope they leave the race stats alone.
Ditto.
Dara: [Eladrin] ... bonus to damage with longsword casting spells would be nice.
Havok: Eladrin ... light blade group - think of the rapier replacing the longsword
I agree, for the Eladrin the longsword is interesting but problematic.
Im ok with the Eladrin longsword flavor ... but
`I feel the longsword must convey the Eladrins Arcane magical flavor, not Martial mundane flavor.
`Eladrin warriors do well with an Eldritch Knight vibe, with classes like Swordmage, even Monk.
`If the longsword is a racial icon, then Eladrin should magically use their highest ability for the atk and dmg bonuses while using a longsword. Int (like Swordmage) and Dex (like a light weapon) are racially significant. Str is racially irrelevant.
`The racially iconic Eladrin Wizard needs some kind of benefit from the longsword while making typical ranged attacks.
`Eladrin Arcanists need the longsword implement proficiency for free (because its currently useless and adds little benefit except flavor), and use it in place of any implement they know.
The longsword is highly problematic for Eladrin. To serve as a racial icon, its issues need resolution. Otherwise for the sake of streamlining, its best to get rid of the Eladrin longsword. The Eladrin Soldier feat could grant proficiency with both longsword and spear - and done.
Martial is not mundane. No Fighter is as simple as a mundane soldier. Eladrin Fighters are going to weave the magic of their people into their fighting style, but it won't be apparent as opposed to other Fighters unless you make it such. Describe such feats as having an effect upon your character.
I think you're putting the burden of change on the mechanics, when it should be the fluff. You're saying it's WotC's fault for not emphasising the qualities in Eladrin that you want; when really, if you want to change them to a different standard – say, like how I make my Eladrin Japanese-esque – then the burden of altered fluff and mechanics lays on your end.
Eladrin have inherited high-elven qualities. That doesn't mean they're obsessed with just the Arcane. They are Faeries, and they have Paladins and Clerics and Invokers and Avengers and Runepriests dedicated to Corellon as well. They have a Courtly-Knight sort of culture, in some cases, and Fighters, Rangers, and Warlords are not out of the ordinary in that situation. What's more, there's a lot of court politics, and subterfuge, and Rogues are very iconic as well.
Mechanics should reflect on the fluff, not the other way around. If you want to refluff, you're taking the mechanics, and putting it to something you see differently. That's what I did, albeit to a slight extent, by keeping Avallonic faerie sort of culture out of Celtic myth and fusing it with Feudal Japanese court culture. I didn't erase the old fluff, I just adjusted it to fit the story I wanted to tell. That's fine. That's fine if you want to make your Eladrin even more Arcane-focused than they already are. What's not fine is that you're saying Eladrin must be this way or should be that way.
Eladrin are not just Arcane characters. The automatic proficiency of the Longsword makes them more effective towards other positions, not just the Arcane. Sure, it plays into Wizard of the Spiral Tower PPath, but it also gives something to roles beyond the simple Arcane element. And it enhances the Arcane classes too! Look at Eladrin Warlocks. They can more readily take advantage of Eldritch Strike, since they have the Longsword to deliver it with.
What I'm saying is, the Longsword is a unique element to the mechanics serving Eladrin fluff. They aren't just magocrisies (they aren't even that; they're Feudal), but they're militant as well, a race of warriors. Think the perfectly trained Galadrim sent to aid the Rohirrim in the battle of Minas Tirith. They're Grey Elves, mostly, with some High Elves as well mixed in – two of the names for Eladrin in D&D. That's one of the reasons I think Strength is actually more important than Charisma for Eladrin. Yes, Charisma is important in Court of the Stars politics, but no more than it is in any other race's political games. Eladrin aren't racially tied to Charisma, but they are racially trained in a militant manner (hence the Longswords). Strength is a good third ability score, while Intelligence really is what defines them.
But that's my prediction, and if it's wrong, I'm not going to whine about how now Eladrin is a stupid race and I'm not interested in them anymore. I'll play up whatever comes their way as an element of their culture, in the interpretation that I have.
I guess what I'm saying is that the ones who get to decide Eladrin culture and mechanics are ultimately WotC, but the DM is able to make decision not to follow those official decisions. So if you're that upset about Eladrin, for godsakes, change it in your game, and stop trying to change it for everyone else, when we like our Eladrin not so trapped into Arcane classes.
And racial ability score modifiers are not the be-all-and-end-all for what a race is good at. Feats supporting "sub-optimal" builds make them more optimal. Eladrin are Sky Blue as Assault Swordmages not because they have Strength (they don't, currently), but because everything about them supports teleportation, which is the very fibre of the Assaultmage's being.
Dwarves are great as Guardian Fighters because they racially tend that way, so they get a lot of racial feats supporting that. But that's probably the least optimal build for them (save the Str-Dex builds like Tempest Fighter and Brawling Fighter). They're much better off as Great Weapon or Battlerager Fighters from a Key ability score direction, which is great, because it means they're good as pretty much any fighter. And Dwarves don't have Strength, and I doubt they ever will: a third ability score will most certainly stress a quality that hasn't been stressed in the past, like Intelligence (leaning towards Battlesmith Artificers, various Swordmages, Warlocks, Summoner Wizards, etc).
I'm probably saying this to be contrary, but I hope they leave the race stats alone.
I agree, but unfortunately one of the articles on the Essentials has already pretty much confirmed it's going to happen.
But that's my prediction, and if it's wrong, I'm not going to whine about how now Eladrin is a stupid race and I'm not interested in them anymore. I'll play up whatever comes their way as an element of their culture, in the interpretation that I have.
Lulz, aka burn
Anyways, while I do fall on the side of not really wanting versatile stats, since they're going to happen, I'd be happy with Eladrin getting either Str or Cha as a "Dex or ..." choice, since it would play into what I consider the stereotypical eladrin classes: Bard, Warlock, Swordmage, and Warlord.
Pretty sure they said the old races are getting the same treatment. That said, can this please not turn into another thread of (i think this race should be this!), we had plenty of those back around PHBIII and all it'll do is cause you to be annoyed if they dont do it, or didn't choose the ones you chose.
Ok, then. Rather than speculating on "What?", let's speculate on "How?". How do we think any racial stat options will be implemented?
While they could just have some stat as optional (ala PHB3), I wonder if they will instead have subraces/bloodlines, which opens the door to more/different racial utilities, abilities, and features. Sure, your elf has Dex and Con because it is a Hollow Tree Elf and also gains baking proficiencies. A member of the Human League loses some versatility but gains the Facination power. Etc.
'Martial is not mundane. No Fighter is as simple as a mundane soldier.'
Martial is mundane, nonmagical, and overdone.
Marandahir: 'The automatic proficiency of the Longsword makes them more effective towards other positions. I make my Eladrin Japanese-esque, race of warriors. Strength is actually more important.'
Your example proves, *mechanics* determine flavor.
If the Eladrin have longswords:
`and overwhelming mechanical support for Martial melee classes
`but unimpressive support for Arcane ranged classes
Then it becomes increasingly difficult to visualize Eladrin with an affinity with the Arcane.
The excessive support for Warlords and Fighters mutates the Eladrin into a 'race of warriors' whose 'Strength is actually more important'. In this example, the defacto mecanics of a military race can reflavor as little more than ordinary samurai.
The original race design that intended the Eladrin to encompass a 'magical' 'race' of 'Arcane' 'gray elf' 'wizards' has failed. The race lacks Wizard-friendly racial traits. It suffocates under the avalanche of overpowered ... Martial ... melee ... combat options. These anti-Wizard mechanics have made the official flavor go bankrupt. The Eladrin are mediocre Wizards, and cannot function in the game as iconic Arcanists.
This is a simple case of, 'the actual use becomes the actual meaning'. In other words, the mechanics determines the flavor. The ways that the mechanics empowers players to use the Eladrin determines the ways that the players think about the Eladrin.
Martial is mundane, nonmagical, and overdone.
Yeah, teleporting to a creep and Ginsu-ing his buddies with lightning sounds pretty ho-hum.
They should instead pump up the under-represented Arcane, Divine, and Primal power sources. Each has only 5+ classes, while the overdone Martial source has....
Whoops.
I know I know... "MP2!!!!" But since the Martial power source is stuck at 4 classes, the same classes get re-tread as the wheels spin around. It just makes it look like Martial Stuff is loved a lot more, because X amount of content gets spread over 4 classes instead of 5 or more. Also, they were front-loaded into the PHB, so the power source has had more time than others to get support, and thus to get any non-Dragon support their bennies move to the front of the Power suppliment queue. Don't get me wrong, it's not like Fighters have a handful of limited options. But leaving aside Essentials, without MP(x) or sympathetic Dragon writers, Martial stuff will never get anything more. Warlords are not even considered particularly Essential.
To bring this back to the new Wizard, note the love that Arcane stuff gets. 6 classes! Your leader can provide you with a soundtrack or throw cool gunk on you or down your throat! Your strikers can use the powers of the stars to get the bad guys, or use the powers of... the sun, moon, and stars to to get the bad guys! The controller has some of the fanciest stuff (including utilities) in the game, in addition to being supremely flexible. The defender doesn't even have to be around to defend people effectively! Arcane powers and abilities don't have to be based on logic, causality, or even good taste! "It's magic." (Divine and Primal stuff is just the same with religious or nature themes.)
Yet the Eladrin is mediocre at all of them.
'Note the love that Arcane stuff gets. 6 classes!'
Yet the Eladrin is mediocre at all of them.
..... You enjoy being wrong, don't you? I mean, it's like you have this need to be wrong. Eladrin are the best Swordmages, period. That is not mediocre. They have some pretty good Wizard, Bard, Artificer, and Warlock support as well. The only Arcane class Eladrin actually are "medicore" at is Sorcerer.
Eladrin are not the archetypal WIZARDS ONLY!1!!1!1!! race. Get over it. They are the archetypal Arcane race, and function which they fill admirably.
This part is undeniably true. Eladrin are not iconic Wizards. They lack the mechanics to support any official iconic Wizard flavor.
'Eladrin are not the archetypal WIZARDS'
This part is undeniably true. Eladrin are not iconic Wizards. They lack the mechanics to support any official iconic Wizard flavor.
This is undeniably false. While they make better Swordmages than Wizards, they are still one of the better Wizard races. Free skill, teleport for "save my ass without worrying about an OA," feats, PPs all make them better Wizards than most races. The only races that get better support for Wizards are coincidentally the other major Fey - Elves and Gnomes, as well as the Githzerai. But that's because someone at WotC clearly has a Gith fetish ...
'Note the love that Arcane stuff gets. 6 classes!'
Yet the Eladrin is mediocre at all of them.
I am trying to figure out where you get this notion, because they are not mediocre in effectiveness. Hmm....
The number of feats from Arcane Power for Eladrin is paltry compared to the number of Martial Power feats. 4 versus 8. There are some other stuff that helps with non-Arcane stuff (like Starlight Duelist style).
Looking at Paragon Paths, there are none that are exclusively for eladrin Arcane types. There are appear to be 4 for Martial eladrin.
That said, there are a couple Epic Destinies for Arcan Eldarin (I'm counting Feyliege). You may even be able to count Winter Sovereign. None for Martial dudes.
So, if the position was held that "Eladrin get mediocre exclusive support for Arcane classes vs Martial classes in all but the Epic tier which may be at odds with the fluff," I could see that.
No surprise, other races are better at the Swordmage class than the Eladrin is. The uptodate CharOp builds eschew Eladrin. There is one highly specialized polearm build ... which doesnt even use a longsword anyway ... and even then a similar Shadar-kai build is listed before it. Meanwhile, the handbook is litered with optimal builds for Genasi, Deva, Human, Shadar-kai, Revenant, pretty much any race except Eladrin. CharOp considers Eladrin Dex near-dumpable (purple) for Swordmage.
The Eladrin is lackluster at the Swordmage class. The Int from any race is 'gold', but while the Eladrin teleport is useful, other races do the class better.
By contrast, the Genasi really is an iconic race for the Swordmage class ... and has the necessary racial mechanics and options to support the official flavor.
Then we are good.
Celtic, first you say, 'This is undeniably false', but then you immediately admit it is true: Eladrin dont 'make better' 'Wizards'.
You seriously need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I did not "admit" Eladrin don't make better Wizards anywhere. I said they don't make the best. Those two things are not the same.
No surprise, other races are better at the Swordmage class than the Eladrin is.
Herid_Fel's Swordmage Handbook has them as Sky Blue. There are no Gold races, but there are are some in the same class as Eladrin. This doesn't seem to indicate that other races are better. [Man, being colorblind stinks.]
The uptodate CharOp builds eschew Eladrin. There is one highly specialized polearm build ... which doesnt even use a longsword anyway ... and even then a similar Shadar-kai build is listed before it. Meanwhile, the handbook is litered with optimal builds for Genasi, Deva, Human, Shadar-kai, Revenant, pretty much any race except Eladrin.
I think "Presence of race in CharOp builds" is a poor indicator of the suitability of of a race for a class in general, but since you brought it up.... The same handbook I mentioned above has 8 builds. 2 are Eladrin. One is the Polearm build you mention and the other is a Cold-based dude who indeed has a longsword. So, 1/4 of the builds are Eladrin, and no other race gets doubled-up for builds in that handbook.
CharOp considers Eladrin Dex near-dumpable (purple) for Swordmage.
In the handbook mentioned above, Dex is not considered dumpable if you want good initiative and/or Heavy Blade weapon feats and/or Improved Swordmage Warding. Not utterly useless. You just can't mindlessly improve it without a plan to get the benefits.
The Eladrin is lackluster at the Swordmage class.
I don't see any evidence of this, and the Handbook cited indicates otherwise.
But this thread is about Wizards, right? Let's eyeball Nausicaa's Wizard handbook. Eladrin? Skyblue with no other Gold races.
Its possible the Rules Compendium will get some kind of universal fix for ALL redundant ability scores. This could be why the Knight class doesnt care about its redundant Str:Con. If so, it would also help many other classes and races, including the Int:Dex Wand Wizard Eladrin, but also, Str:Con Warforge, Wis:Cha Cleric Kalashtar, etcetera.
Its possible the Rules Compendium will get some kind of universal fix for ALL redundant ability scores. This could be why the Knight class doesnt care about its redundant Str:Con
Knight's get shield finess.
Con gives you starting hitpoints, starting surge amounts, and, endurance checks.
Sure, there is a definate advantage to having a High fort based attribute, and a high will based, but sometimes, you make the choice to sacrifice in one area to bolster another.
Int/Dex rogues don't want to get hit with fort or will attacks, but they should be doing their damage far from the shadows anyway.
If your right, that may be a reasonable compensation for the loss of defense points, since the gratuitous shield bonus would add an enhancement bonus that scales while leveling.
Austin: 'Str/Con is only redundant for the Fort save.'
People often underestimate the loss. Consider the Warforged. Yes, at first level, there is a 1-point loss to the Fortitude defense because the racial +2 Str and +2 Con dont stack their +1 defense bonuses. However, while achieving levels 4 and 8 and wanting to boost another +2 Str and +2 Con, there is another loss of their nonstacking +1 defense point. And at levels 11 and 14 another +1 defense point lost, and at levels 18 and 21 another +1 defense point, and at levels 24 and 28 another +1 defense point lost.
Thus thru the career, there can be a total loss of 5 defense points if the class benefits from maxing both the primary and secondary redundant abilities. (Or if the player wants to max both racial abilities to express the racial archetype.) The significant loss of defense hamstrings the gaming design andor punishes the player that chooses the class or race.
Likewise, for a Warforged to dump either Str or Con is no solution because the loss of an extraordinarily high ability score is a significant loss of optimization.
Redundant abilities are a deep structural problem.