Oriental Adventures
Now of course, many people are saying hundreds of things like "Oh, I have no interest in that", or "Ugh, they're just playing to the _________ (name a crowd you have unwarranted hatred for here) crowd". But the idea has grown on me, and when you've got it on your mind, you start to notice things.
Like the White Lotus Academy, especially in terms of art. Or Vestige Pact, which is kind of out-of-the-blue unless you consider that's it's really a sort of Ancestor-Pact that fits in perfcets. Or certain Paragon Paths that seem to fit right in. Or the city of Hantumah from Open Grave. I bet if we keep watching, we'll see more and more of this.
Anyhow, this might already be a big speculation, and maybe I'm late, but I get the feeling people might start to like this idea if they gave it a chance. I think 4E can make Oriental Adventures sexy again. I used to hate the idea of such a campaign, but given the 4th Edition touch, I think it has potential.
Does anyone else have any ideas about this? Has anyone else noticed these kinds of things? I'd love to hear people's ideas about this.
Also, this isn't an invitation to talk about how much you hate 4th Edition Forgotten Realms, "anime influences" or any of that kids-these-days condescension. I'm wondering what people think about this idea. No fighting please.
Thanks in advance!
EDIT: Also, my reasoning is this... it's something they would do, because of these things:
- It fills a niche
- It's a departure from what they've BEEN doing, allowing for some variety.
- and departure though it is, it doesn't completely neglect the wealth of material that is at their disposal from 3rd Edition.
I personally, think that if they were to do Oriental Adventures it be as a single book for converting campaigns to that style. Or just a ordinary campaign setting with it based more in Eastern culture instead of Western. I can't see us having a setting that is solely, "European Adventures", so same goes with Oriental.
GH got a lot of talk at either Origins or Gencon last year with quite a bit of interesting info being given out. (I can give you a link to a summary of this in PM if ya like)
Seriously, pitch me on this setting. Why would I possibly care about Greyhawk?
Legend of the Five Rings has a better setting, combat system and roleplaying support for an oriental fantasy campaign; I'm pretty uninterested in D&D trying to do the poor man's version.
...unless they were committed to make it a good release, in which case they could just also make a good setting. Unless of course there is only one good way of doing it, which isn't true of anything.
GH got a lot of talk at either Origins or Gencon last year with quite a bit of interesting info being given out. (I can give you a link to a summary of this in PM if ya like)
I would love you to, because this would be a great travesty. Greyhawk is... nothing. It's worse and more generic than core.
...unless they were committed to make it a good release, in which case they could just also make a good setting. Unless of course there is only one good way of doing it, which isn't true of anything.
Well, to that I'd say that the original L5R mechanics were specifically built at capturing the essence of a samurai drama, whereas the D&D mechanics were built towards a more western fantasy sensibility. D&D isn't gritty enough to do samurai tragedy and it's not exaggerated enough to do anime hyper-combat - it falls in between. With the best will in the world, D&D could come up with an awesome setting and still be the poor man's L5R.
Just as, in the same vein, if they did a magic-and-cyberpunk futuristic setting with the basic 4E core rules it would undeniably be the poor man's Shadowrun. 4E's strength is western heroic fantasy, and it should play to it. There's no incentive to being runner-up in a niche genre when you can be king of the dominant one.
4E's strength is western heroic fantasy, and it should play to it. There's no incentive to being runner-up in a niche genre when you can be king of the dominant one.
Ah, but you're assuming they can't re-examine a genre. You'd have said they couldn't do pulp/noir, but take that genre and give it a D&D makeover, and you get Eberron. I hope that if they do anything that panders into another genre, that they do it from the approach of "How can we bring D&D to this genre and create something new and exciting", not "How can we make D&D fit into what people have come to expect from this genre".
The recent article Order of Celestian is from Greyhawk originally
The GM's reward module has been rumored to be the Greyhawk module T1 The Village of Homlett.
There were a couple of other things as well but slip my mind right now.
Well, to that I'd say that the original L5R mechanics were specifically built at capturing the essence of a samurai drama.
True, but it can be terribly mediocre as a Asian fantasy campaign. I see a solid niche for a game where you and your ragtag band of misfits wander the countryside righting wrongs, slaying demons, and finding strange lands and peoples. More Journey to the West then Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Until 4th edition Greyhawk was core. So it couldnt be worse than core.
The recent article Order of Celestian is from Greyhawk originally
The GM's reward module has been rumored to be the Greyhawk module T1 The Village of Homlett.
There were a couple of other things as well but slip my mind right now.
It can be worse than the new core. I hate to sound argumentative, I don't mean to put down Greyhawk entirely. It was great in the past. But the core stuff now is more interesting. There is nothing gained by re-releasing Greyhawk for 4th Edition, except to appease Greyhawk diehards, who will be the least satisfied for the inevitable changes that would have to be made to accommodate it in the new edition.
It can be worse than the new core. I hate to sound argumentative, I don't mean to put down Greyhawk entirely. It was great in the past. But the core stuff now is more interesting. There is nothing gained by re-releasing Greyhawk for 4th Edition, except to appease Greyhawk diehards, who will be the least satisfied for the inevitable changes that would have to be made to accommodate it in the new edition.
No more so than the FR were and the Eberron people will be. But people will get over it or move on. Either way they are small numbers in comparison to those that will remain.
Just like I will not purchase any Eberron products there will be those that will feel the same way about Greyhawk or (Insert Setting Here). Thats the way of business.
Just my personal opinion but I think FR was released to appease a Large fanbase, Eberron is being released to appeal to a younger fan base and Greyhawk (or Dragonlance or Darksun etc) will appease and appeal to a specific fan base.
I have been a gamer for a long, long time. I am a Forgotten Realms fan and the changes that were made do not upset me at all. I am a Greyhawk fan and the changes they make for it I am sure wont upset me at all either. Although the time line reset makes me feel like all of my Living Greyhawk years were just a dream lol
Ah, but you're assuming they can't re-examine a genre. You'd have said they couldn't do pulp/noir, but take that genre and give it a D&D makeover, and you get Eberron.
(tongue in cheek) I've seen Eberron, and I still say they can't do pulp/noir.
(Serious) I have severe doubts about the current ability of Wizards to come up with genuinely interesting settings and setting reboots; the current design team have some very accomplished design chops when it comes to mechanics but I've not seen much yet to suggest they're particularly wonderful at the creative side of things.
Putting that aside, assuming that from somewhere they develop a wonderfully-fleshed out setting that takes us somewhere we've never seen before, assuming that it's a literary treasure worthy of being preserved through the ages, if it's not fundamentally western heroic fantasy it'll be a sub-par game.
The best flavour in the world doesn't get you around the fact that 4th Edition is designed to create non-trivial knock-down drag-out high-power supernatural battles in semi-open environments between competitively matched opponents. It does that very well. It also spends a lot of its time on the concepts of traps, treasure, and quests, all of which it handles competently if not amazingly. It's very good at conveying grand, sweeping ideas and rather poor at demonstrating subtlety and nuance.
If you build a setting that's not fundamentally working to these parameters then you're either going to have to heavily mod the core rules - which starts leading to the question of why not just make a new game - or you're going to end up with a mechanically sub-par game.
4E is just not given to the kind of introspection and decisive action that characterises your classic samurai story; its social system is skeletal and poorly suited to handling classic detective noir. There's little that's mechanically present to commend the game to handling romance and intrigue and its design is specifically and intentionally contrary to anything with an economic or political basis.
Dragonlance, Dark Sun and (for better or worse) Greyhawk are all based around what D&D does well. Let's see some 4E incarnations of them before we go resurrecting the mistakes of D&D's past.
(tongue in cheek) I've seen Eberron, and I still say they can't do pulp/noir.
One of the best things to happen to D&D in a decade. It revitalized the game in a big way, if the entirety of 4th edition isn't evidence enough.
(Serious) I have severe doubts about the current ability of Wizards to come up with genuinely interesting settings and setting reboots; the current design team have some very accomplished design chops when it comes to mechanics but I've not seen much yet to suggest they're particularly wonderful at the creative side of things.
I suppose the only thing appropriate is a very opinionated response, but I find the core materials in the published books wonderful, and I think many others do to. There is not a single part of Manual of the Planes that made me say "pass". Same thing goes with most of Forgotten Realms. I'm one of those silly people who thought that the new setting was more of what people need from a Role Playing Game Setting. I've never really read the Silmarillion, but someone told me recently about what it's like to read it, and it reminded me exactly of my experience with FRCS from 3rd Edition.
Putting that aside, assuming that from somewhere they develop a wonderfully-fleshed out setting that takes us somewhere we've never seen before, assuming that it's a literary treasure worthy of being preserved through the ages, if it's not fundamentally western heroic fantasy it'll be a sub-par game.
The best flavour in the world doesn't get you around the fact that 4th Edition is designed to create non-trivial knock-down drag-out high-power supernatural battles in semi-open environments between competitively matched opponents. It does that very well. It also spends a lot of its time on the concepts of traps, treasure, and quests, all of which it handles competently if not amazingly. It's very good at conveying grand, sweeping ideas and rather poor at demonstrating subtlety and nuance.
Italics for what I agree with. Bold for what a DM should (and does, if I may speak for myself) be able to fix with any amount of intent or skill. Non-trivial? I don't even understand that.
...its social system is skeletal and poorly suited to handling classic detective noir...
Now you've begun to describe things that are outside game mechanics.
Dragonlance, Dark Sun and (for better or worse) Greyhawk are all based around what D&D does well. Let's see some 4E incarnations of them before we go resurrecting the mistakes of D&D's past.
I agree that it would be good to see something like Dark Sun. Different in the right direction, if I might put it in words that try to communicate what I think you're saying. But I think that this kind of thinking is just... limited. Pure and simple. It's just not giving any kind of forward-thinking or possibility a chance.
You don't resurrect mistakes, you re-examine them. Hell, just look at the bard.
I suppose the only thing appropriate is a very opinionated response, but I find the core materials in the published books wonderful ...
You're apparently not alone, and you also seem like a pretty intelligent and reasonable person, so take this as a personal viewpoint rather than a disparagement of your opinion. What I expect to see in a setting book is mysteries, plot hooks, unique opportunities for adventure at every tier, suggested NPCs complete with motivations and campaign ties, genuinely imaginative locations, and patterns for DMs to develop a lot more of the same. What I got was a "for dummies" rehash of the 2nd Ed and 3.5 material with no real campaign inspiration other than large swathes of territory marked "here be generic dragons". Obviously that's not everyone's experience, but I was looking for something a little less Lonely Planet and a little more like the excellent setting supplements published by White Wolf and Alterac Entertainment for their games.
Italics for what I agree with. Bold for what a DM should (and does, if I may speak for myself) be able to fix with any amount of intent or skill. Non-trivial? I don't even understand that.
Non-trivial in the sense of a significant gameplay event. 4E combats take time. If you have a fight in your game, it's going to eat a minimum of 15% of your total play time. Compare that to a brute fight in 7th Sea or a conflict in Primetime Adventures which can be over in anything from two to ten minutes.
Semi-open environments: "Open", in that 4th Ed assumes a certain amount of mobility from both characters and monsters in order for a large number of the movement and positioning focused powers to be effective, and for the AoE powers to not be overpowered. "Semi" in that 4th Ed assumes that cover and terrain will play a part in your battle; anyone who's tried to run more than about five combats in a row without any relevant terrain will agree they get very staid very quickly.
Subtlety and nuance: In 4th Edition, you kill things to level up. Completing quests gives you non-standardised quest XP rewards. Roleplaying gives you highly vague and temperamental rewards depending on the house rules, your DM, and what he ate for lunch. Attacks hit or don't hit. Creatures live or die. The players are heroes and insofar as you grapple with morality or human nature it will be in a mechanically-divorced pure roleplaying context rather than complemented and highlighted by the central tenets of the game. Compare to something like White Wolf's "Mage" where a good part of power gain is based on character development, or even Wizards' own Star Wars system where the nature of the Force puts moral dilemmas and themes of corruption and salvation front and centre in the gameplay.
Social system: When I say the social system is skeletal, I mean by that that it only has one mechanic, being skill checks, and four prime stats, being Insight, Bluff, Intimidate and Persuade. Right there it's telling you that social interactions are machines to be manipulated for gain. The only mechanical reward for success is XP, and then only by the whim of the DM. Compare to White Wolf's Vampire, where political affiliation is built right into the character concept, and political and social success can reward you mechanically with Contacts, Advantages and other such character perks. Or Legend of the Five Rings and 7th Sea, where not only does interacting with your Backgrounds generate experience, but being sufficiently zen (L5R) or witty (7th Sea) gives you plot-altering tokens that can help keep your character in the narrative spotlight.
You're exactly right that social systems are outside the game mechanics. They don't have to be - they're not in other games - and the fact they are in 4E is a weakness if you're wanting to a run a game where social conflict is the centre of the story.
I'm all on board for seeing new and unique worlds, I just think it's foolish to pretend that D&D is some kind of flexible jack-of-all-trades that can handle any genre providing that we all clap our hands and believe in faeries. It's a focused system, it's rooted in a particular genre, it does that genre well, and it's just not in its best interests to go exploring.
I'm glad to see them back in the mags, but I wish we'd seen one of these earlier (though it makes perfect sense to do it right near Arcane Power's release.)
It can be worse than the new core. I hate to sound argumentative, I don't mean to put down Greyhawk entirely. It was great in the past. But the core stuff now is more interesting. There is nothing gained by re-releasing Greyhawk for 4th Edition, except to appease Greyhawk diehards, who will be the least satisfied for the inevitable changes that would have to be made to accommodate it in the new edition.
Why? There's nothing in 4e that I couldn't easily add to GH & keep all of it's original flavour.
You could aproach it in one of two ways:
A) Mod some of the generic stuff from the PHB to better fit GH. Ignore the bits about the fallen empire, halflings being river folk, where the PHB says tieflings & dragonborn hail from, etc. & just replace with new GH specific fluff.
But really that's what specific campaign setting are already supposed to do....
B) Mod the GH setting slightly so as to reflect the generic fluff in the PHB. You can make this work without giving it the over-the-top 4e FR treatment you know.
I've never really read the Silmarillion, but someone told me recently about what it's like to read it, and it reminded me exactly of my experience with FRCS from 3rd Edition.
So the FRCS of 3rd edition reminded you of a huge written out family tree...?
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1183235&page=3
Below are 7 criteria that he claims WotC is following:
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Now THAT'S a multi-layered conversation that usually starts with us asking a bunch of questions and doing some research. Some questions that spring to mind whenever someone says the words "campaign setting" to me:
1. Is there a business need or opportunity for a new setting or a reincarnated old setting?
2. Where is popular culture heading? Can we create a setting that isn't irrelevant one or two years from now?
3. Are there any non-active settings that we're revitalizing in other arenas (digital games, novels, Hollywood, etc.)?
4. Is there an important niche that a new or old setting can fill?
5. Is there a particular setting that a significant number of D&D players want to see resurrected or reincarnated?
6. Is there a setting that we can turn into a $X million sub-brand with multiple revenue streams?
7. Can we design a setting that doesn't fracture the D&D audience into a dozen squabbling sects that utterly loathe one another (a la TSR circa 1997)?
1. Is there a business need or opportunity for a new setting or a reincarnated old setting?
2. Where is popular culture heading? Can we create a setting that isn't irrelevant one or two years from now?
3. Are there any non-active settings that we're revitalizing in other arenas (digital games, novels, Hollywood, etc.)?
4. Is there an important niche that a new or old setting can fill?
5. Is there a particular setting that a significant number of D&D players want to see resurrected or reincarnated?
6. Is there a setting that we can turn into a $X million sub-brand with multiple revenue streams?
7. Can we design a setting that doesn't fracture the D&D audience into a dozen squabbling sects that utterly loathe one another (a la TSR circa 1997)?
Everyone and their dog knows it.
It also offers the most unique possibilities, being a radical departure from every other setting out there.
Greyhawk is not coming back the developers said in an interview that they had zero interest in Dragonlance and Greyhawk because they already have their High Fantasy setting. Also they've already stated that Eberron will not need the massive fluff overhaul treatment that FR received and that Eberron's story is advancing maybe five years. Versus the one hundred that FR did.
Darksun is number 3. All of the designers want to do it. And they tried and failed to do it in 3e with those magazine releases because 3e's "Magic items are your character" was entirely opposite of what Dark Sun was about. (among other reasons)
After Dark Sun who knows. Personal hope? That Waterworld that they mentioned wanting to do. Or a completely not FR at all Al Qadim.
It can be worse than the new core. I hate to sound argumentative, I don't mean to put down Greyhawk entirely. It was great in the past. But the core stuff now is more interesting. There is nothing gained by re-releasing Greyhawk for 4th Edition, except to appease Greyhawk diehards, who will be the least satisfied for the inevitable changes that would have to be made to accommodate it in the new edition.
I despise grey hawk. If they do grey hawk I wont buy the products at all. I will not play in a game set in grey hawk. I would rather see something completley new, or darksun, though a setting with an oriental feel could do well.
Greyhawk is not coming back the developers said in an interview that they had zero interest in Dragonlance and Greyhawk because they already have their High Fantasy setting.
Thats funny because they talked about both of these at origins and gencon last year. And discussed ideas on how to handle releasing these settings.
i think FR was a bad idea. They should have combined all the generic settings and released the Forgotten Graylance.
Then it should have been Eber-gotten Grey-lance...though for me I'd buy the later three campaigns only...Eberron is not my cup of tea...not into the medieval cyberpunk stuff
Thats funny because they talked about both of these at origins and gencon last year. And discussed ideas on how to handle releasing these settings.
I wouldn't bet on it happening. They might release them far later down the line but they want to cover worlds that are actually you know.. significantly different from one another first.
Dark Sun. Folks Psionics is coming, you know it I know it.
Everyone and their dog knows it.
...
People are kinda coming around to it, and it has huge support, and they really seem to dig it... who knows! They could do a really awesome job, but I agree. This is starting to be closer to the idea. Now my theory isn't lookin' so solid
:D
Hmm. I don't know if you read this, but Christopher Perkins was posting rather frequently this weekend about upcoming campaigns and the criteria for what they would publish.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1183235&page=3
Below are 7 criteria that he claims WotC is following:
...
And looking at that thread, you're right. They do seem to be moving in a more Dark Sun/Dragonlance/Something New direction.
I despise grey hawk. If they do grey hawk I wont buy the products at all. I will not play in a game set in grey hawk. I would rather see something completley new, or darksun, though a setting with an oriental feel could do well.
I mean, I don't feel that strongly, but I also wish Greyhawk won't be their choice. But based on the thread Alter_Boy mention, where he kept talking about beloved franchises and didn't even mention Greyhawk, I think we're safe.
Thats funny because they talked about both of these at origins and gencon last year. And discussed ideas on how to handle releasing these settings.
You know, you've kinda been the only one saying this. You sent me that one link to that thread on that forum with that guy, but as far as it seems, he could very well be making it all up. There's no evidence to support that at all.
So the FRCS of 3rd edition reminded you of a huge written out family tree...?
You're close. The old FRCS was the kind of book where you don't even know where to begin, or how to proceed with it, because you have to keep referencing other sections, keep everything in context, hold on to a massive timeline... I may not be explaining myself well, but I think you get the picture. You weren't far off with "huge written out family tree".
Thanks so much for your feedback, guys!
After that then it will be easier to see where they are heading.
And to JackSmithIV I am only presenting what I remember being discussed after the conventions and their pressers. They were talked about on the Greyhawk and Dragonlance message boards. I think there was a link to a recording of one presser where Dragonlance was discussed. But since this was all from last summer and the major cons are yet to come for this year its hard to garner any information about future settings. As I stated above we will see what is said at the pressers this summer.
Greyhawk was an interesting setting but it's been really the same for what? 3 Decades? That little part of Greyhawk they put out again and again and again is just such a small part of Oerth. Why not bring in Greyhawk with some new flavor and detail a neighboring land say across the Sea of Dust or something. That's how they built up Forgotten Realms with expansion and expansions. But with GreyHawk all you get is the same thing rehashed into a new book for new version of D&D. I have the original 1st edition box set of GreyHawk and the From the Ashes box which quite honestly was pretty much same thing. Then 3rd edition I got the Grey Hawk book and it too was pretty much reprint for 3rd edition. This is why Grey Hawk is so BORING!
This is fairly true (I disagree that GH is boring, but agree this may be why it is considered boring or is so hated compared to FR). That is why as a GH fan I would rather they did not release a 4e version than a retread for the 3rd time. Now, if they somehow incorporated the changes made by the LG campaign in a 4e version, that would be something...
I'm still convinced Dark Sun is the most likely, unless they have some bigger plans for Dragonlance we are unaware of.
This is fairly true (I disagree that GH is boring, but agree this may be why it is considered boring or is so hated compared to FR). That is why as a GH fan I would rather they did not release a 4e version than a retread for the 3rd time. Now, if they somehow incorporated the changes made by the LG campaign in a 4e version, that would be something...
I'm still convinced Dark Sun is the most likely, unless they have some bigger plans for Dragonlance we are unaware of.
Unfortunately they cant release GH with the events that happened in the 8 yeas of LG included. They dont own the material (i.e modules) from LG. Once the module expired its rights reverted back to the writer. I think this is a large reason why they are actually purchasing the modules for LFR.
While I don't have any problem with anyone running an Asian themed game, what it really boils down to is that we don't have any actual need for an Orietal Adventures campaign setting.
My guesses on the next setting would probably be either Greyhawk or, more than likely, Dark Sun. That being said, I'd love to see Ravenloft get the treatment, though I doubt that will ever happen...
Also they've already stated that Eberron will not need the massive fluff overhaul treatment that FR received and that Eberron's story is advancing maybe five years.
Eberron's story is advancing maybe five years.
NOT ON MY WATCH!
*Sings "I'm going to hell when I die" By Conan O'Brien and the Booty Boys(/z?)*
*Sings "I'm going to hell when I die" By Conan O'Brien and the Booty Boys(/z?)*
I haven't bought Forgotten Realms yet. Won't say never but iffy. I definitely won't buy Eberron or Dark Sun. I would buy Greyhawk though.
I think something new in cultural flavor but still standard fantasy would be nice as well. I'd probably definitely buy a new world book.
I have bought every hardback book including FR players guide (just for the swordmage) except for FR Campaign Setting. So I buy a lot of the books. I'm still on the fence with FR. I love the maps. Don't really like the nations etc.. that well.
We're still in that exact same place actually. Some see that as the end of Dragonlance but I really don't. I think the dragonlance novels do too well to abandon and their not announcing any novels in that case can only have to do with their relaunching the setting.
Dragonlance by 2011 for sure.
Dragonlance by 2011 for sure.
This will sound incredibly conspiratorial, but it was just something I noticed...
Recently, Chris Perkins was talking about what they look for in a new Campaign Setting. Someone made a joke about Dragonlance, saying something like "How many cataclysms can one world have?" Chris responded with a simple "Five".
So either he was joking, or has recently become quite aquainted with the setting. But that's ridiculous speculation.
On another note, Dragonlance and Dark Sun are the kind of properties you can revive again, make them sexy again. Greyhawk is just done. It's not just generic, it's old generic. It's a step far backward.
The new campaign setting is going to be Low Magic and oppressive in nature, it'll be like 4E on Hard mode. Your chars will have to be truly heroic and resourceful and pushed to the limits to fight the odds.
I remember that podcast thing from Gen Con for Dragonlance too. At the time there was a lot of panic in the Dragonlance community since not only was the fate of Dragonlance in D&D unknown there was also no announced novels past 2009.
We're still in that exact same place actually. Some see that as the end of Dragonlance but I really don't. I think the dragonlance novels do too well to abandon and their not announcing any novels in that case can only have to do with their relaunching the setting.
Dragonlance by 2011 for sure.
Ugh. Just ugh...
IMHO, I think we could really do without a 4e rendition of Dragonlance. I've never really been a fan of the setting to begin with, as it just seems to be too tied into the novels. I know similar arguments have been made with FR, but it seems to be much more pronounced with DL. My general experience is that it's next to impossible to have any type of adventure within the setting without having umpteen unnecessary tie in to the mythology of the novels.
That, and I hate kenders. Truly, sincerely, pathologically, loathe kenders.
Seriously, though, from my own perspective, my interest in playing D&D is to experience the story of my character and the adventuring group he happens to be with... Not a re-telling or tie in to what has already been novelized....
In the most recent podcast the host mentioned he was running a lunchtime campaign in Greyhawk. Could this be playtesting?
Kill me.
Legend of the Five Rings has a better setting, combat system and roleplaying support for an oriental fantasy campaign; I'm pretty uninterested in D&D trying to do the poor man's version.
That depends fully on the flavor of the Oriental Fantasy setting. D&D can pull off Oriental just fine but it definitely won't be the same flavor as L5R.
White Lotus, Golden Wyvern, Emerald Frost, and a few others were Wizard traditions thy coked up for the PoL meta setting, but they were scrapped from the PHB due to massive community backlash. Shocking (no, not really) many of those same posters went on to deride 4e for the lack of "flavor" which really just means the whole thing boiled down to "badwrongfun."
IIRC, when that article was released, we had little information on 4E and it made it sound like these traditions would be a pertinent fixture. Regardless the traditions would have been abolished any ways to allow for the simplicity that 4E currently enjoys.
Just a note for everyone else, I have a copy of that article
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Magic saturates the world and all the extraordinary realms beyond the world, an intrinsic force present in literally all things. Magic transforms and alters the natural world, sometimes actively and with sudden effect, other times subtly and over long centuries.
This arcane energy source is difficult to understand and even tougher to master. Wizards do so through years of study, practice, and apprenticeship to accomplished masters.
Wizards wield arcane magic, and they recognize reality for what it is: a thin veneer of structure supported and energized by a force that is ultimately malleable, to those who know its secrets. Though research and study, wizards learn esoteric rituals that allow them to alter time and space, hurl balls of fire that incinerate massed foes, and wield spells like warriors brandish swords. They call upon lesser and greater spells to unleash raging torrents of cold, fire, or lightning, confuse and enthrall the weak-minded, or even turn invisible or walk through walls.
What sets wizards apart from others who wield arcane magic are wizards’ unique implements. Most people recognize the three most common tools associated with wizardcraft: the orb, staff, and wand.
Any wizard can use an implement to increase the effectiveness of his spells. Just as a warrior gains a benefit when attacking an enemy with a magic sword, so does a wizard benefit from using a magic orb, staff, or wand with his spellcasting. In addition, each implement focuses magic of a particular discipline or tradition more effectively than the wizard would be able to accomplish otherwise. As a result, wizards are rarely without at least one of these tools.
The orb is favored by the Iron Sigil and Serpent Eye traditions. Serpent Eye cabalists use orbs to focus powers of enchantment, beguiling, and ensnaring. The mages of the Iron Sigil, on the other hand, employ orbs to guard themselves with potent defenses when invoking spells of thunder or force.
The staff is best suited to the disciplines of the Hidden Flame and the Golden Wyvern. Servants of the Hidden Flame wield fierce powers of fire and radiance through their staves. Golden Wyvern initiates are battle-mages who use their staves to shape and sculpt the spells they cast.
The wand is a perennial favorite for wizards who favor accurate, damaging attacks. Emerald Frost adepts use wands to help channel powers of cold and deadly acidic magic, while Stormwalker theurges channel spells of lightning and force through their wands.
A wizard without an implement is like a slightly near-sighted man with glasses: The man can still see, but without his glasses, he can’t read the road sign across the way. Likewise, while wizard traditions are associated with a particular implement, a wizard need not possess or hold a given implement to use a power belonging to that tradition. For instance, a wizard belonging to the Hidden Flame order can cast the fire spell cinder storm even if he doesn’t own, has lost, or is not holding a magic staff. But if he does have a magic staff, it aids the accuracy of his attack, and his mastery of the Hidden Flame technique allows him to deal more damage with the spell.
This arcane energy source is difficult to understand and even tougher to master. Wizards do so through years of study, practice, and apprenticeship to accomplished masters.
Wizards wield arcane magic, and they recognize reality for what it is: a thin veneer of structure supported and energized by a force that is ultimately malleable, to those who know its secrets. Though research and study, wizards learn esoteric rituals that allow them to alter time and space, hurl balls of fire that incinerate massed foes, and wield spells like warriors brandish swords. They call upon lesser and greater spells to unleash raging torrents of cold, fire, or lightning, confuse and enthrall the weak-minded, or even turn invisible or walk through walls.
What sets wizards apart from others who wield arcane magic are wizards’ unique implements. Most people recognize the three most common tools associated with wizardcraft: the orb, staff, and wand.
Any wizard can use an implement to increase the effectiveness of his spells. Just as a warrior gains a benefit when attacking an enemy with a magic sword, so does a wizard benefit from using a magic orb, staff, or wand with his spellcasting. In addition, each implement focuses magic of a particular discipline or tradition more effectively than the wizard would be able to accomplish otherwise. As a result, wizards are rarely without at least one of these tools.
The orb is favored by the Iron Sigil and Serpent Eye traditions. Serpent Eye cabalists use orbs to focus powers of enchantment, beguiling, and ensnaring. The mages of the Iron Sigil, on the other hand, employ orbs to guard themselves with potent defenses when invoking spells of thunder or force.
The staff is best suited to the disciplines of the Hidden Flame and the Golden Wyvern. Servants of the Hidden Flame wield fierce powers of fire and radiance through their staves. Golden Wyvern initiates are battle-mages who use their staves to shape and sculpt the spells they cast.
The wand is a perennial favorite for wizards who favor accurate, damaging attacks. Emerald Frost adepts use wands to help channel powers of cold and deadly acidic magic, while Stormwalker theurges channel spells of lightning and force through their wands.
A wizard without an implement is like a slightly near-sighted man with glasses: The man can still see, but without his glasses, he can’t read the road sign across the way. Likewise, while wizard traditions are associated with a particular implement, a wizard need not possess or hold a given implement to use a power belonging to that tradition. For instance, a wizard belonging to the Hidden Flame order can cast the fire spell cinder storm even if he doesn’t own, has lost, or is not holding a magic staff. But if he does have a magic staff, it aids the accuracy of his attack, and his mastery of the Hidden Flame technique allows him to deal more damage with the spell.
Kill me.
Nah just do what I will do if they publish greyhawk refuse to buy it. I wont even go on the grey hawk forums to complain about I will just ignore it, same if they do DL. But I will be disapointed if its not Darksun or something completley new. Those are the only things Im interested in, except maybe Al Quadim. I have no attachment or nostalgia for any of the old settings. I want to see something original done by the current developers.
I will purchase anything they release from Dragonlance, Greyhawk and perhaps Darksun (in order of the preference I would like to see them)
Any other settings but those above I will make a case by case basis for desire to purchase.
I just hope the next few months go by quickly so the advertisements for that accursed setting will finally go away.
I would like to see 4E Dark Sun, GreyHawk and Dragon Lance settings. I would also be interested in a totally new setting if it isn't like Eberron.
That said, I wold buy Greyhawk in a heartbeat... especially if they do the reset back to the Greyhawk Wars. I personally don't see why so many folks (well, ok, in reality a small handful, this is just an internet forum with a small population not representative of anything) think Greyhawk is so boring. It's the foundation D&D is built on. It'd be like saying "I don't want to watch the original Star Wars, it's old and boring now, I've seen it so many times... give me soemthing new." (Don't worry, i know some people will agree with that ;))The setting has a lot goign for it. Tons of possibitlies for politics, intrigue, exploration, etc. Even if it's the same area covered time and again, there's still areas full of mystery that aren't that detailed. (Celene, the lands Turosh Mak rules, The Valley of the Wizard, etc.) It's been, traditionally, a lower magic and lower power campaign than FR ever was (which was magic on steroids where the peasants in town were all Epic level commoners).
But enough about Greyhawk. The one setting I'd love to see happen in 4e? teh one I'd give up my first born child for? A lisenced port of Iron Kingdoms to 4e. It'll never happen, but I can always dream...
I'll buy any setting. There's always somethign in it that I can use for inspiration.
Part of it may be that FR and Greyhawk's flavor (as well as Dragonlance, to a smaller extent) bled together so much during 2nd Edition, when so many crossovers between them were common. Combined with the fact that the "generic" setting presented in 3rd Edition was based on Greyhawk, it feels kind of bland nowadays compared to Eberron or even Forgotten Realms itself.
If they do revisit Greyhawk, they'll have to refocus on what makes it unique and different from FR (the other main High Fantasy-based setting). Dragonlance has enough unique wrinkles and flavor that it wouldn't run into this problem as much.
As such, I could see either Dark Sun or Dragonlance being the third campaign setting detailed. Of course, they may decide to create an entirely new setting to focus on an entirely different form of fantasy (An Oriental Adventures-inspired setting being one that has been floated around here a lot).
OOO, a Iron Kingdom setting be awesome.
Eberron is the closest we'll ever get to something like this. Alternate genres put people outside of their very tight comfort zones (see some posts in this thread). There are plenty of ways I'd love to see them branch out, but over the next couple of years, we're more likely to see them revisit old franchises. And why not.
I'd buy Greyhawk too, because you can mine it. I don't despise the idea of Greyhawk, but they seem to only wanna do 1 setting a year. I despise the idea of Greyhawk instead of anything else. And I mean anything.
As I've said several times before, on these threads, I hope to see Dark Sun as next years campaign release. And if I were a betting man, that's where I would put my money. ;)
I would take that bet. I could use the extra income to save up for the setting in 2010.
Eberron is the closest we'll ever get to something like this. Alternate genres put people outside of their very tight comfort zones (see some posts in this thread). There are plenty of ways I'd love to see them branch out, but over the next couple of years, we're more likely to see them revisit old franchises. And why not.
I'd buy Greyhawk too, because you can mine it. I don't despise the idea of Greyhawk, but they seem to only wanna do 1 setting a year. I despise the idea of Greyhawk instead of anything else. And I mean anything.
I am hoping the fact that WoTC has said they don't want to repeat niches mean that we will get more variety in our settings. We got the generic fantasy one with FR, got the magi-tech with Eberron, so we shall have to see what next.
I got DDI, so I will take crunch from Greyhawk if it was to come next. But I wouldn't use the setting at all.
1. If WotC wants to attract NEW customers, doesn't that make the whole "Greyhawk is too old and played out" thing irrelevant? Presumably there are going to be a lot of people who don't have a prejudice for or against it.
2. It seems to me that Greyhawk was generic because…TSR let it get that way. Who says they won't be able to revitalize the setting? By not making Greyhawk the default setting they have already taken one contributer to its genericness.
Despite the outcry against the new FR, they have put out a lot of really cool stuff lately and I would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Then again I'm like the guy above, I will buy all the settings anyway. I need al the inspiration I can get…I'm a sucky DM.
Eberron is the closest we'll ever get to something like this.
Which is too bad. IK pwned Eberron. Eberron is like the bastard, syphilitic, red-headed step-child of IK. :P
Although after saying all that... I don't mind Eberron. :D
Alternate genres put people outside of their very tight comfort zones (see some posts in this thread).
True, true.
There are plenty of ways I'd love to see them branch out, but over the next couple of years, we're more likely to see them revisit old franchises. And why not.
I seem to recall readign that they had planned (not that it would be set in stone) to do classic then new, repeat. Maybe that was someone's wild speculation or what they'd like to see. I've read so much that I can't keep it all straight in my head.
Anyone listen to the podcasts? Someone today said they heard one where the dev was talking about a Greyhawk home campaign. Perhaps playtesting? Or just a dev thats a fan and converted his Greyhawk campaign at home to 4th.
Mearls has said he runs a Greyhawk game but Greyhawk is one of his favorite settings (if you listen to the podcasts he references Greyhawk often), so I would not take mention of it as anything other than his own home game.
1. It seems to be a popular setting, and there's not a lot of negativity towards it.
2. There wasn't a true version of Darksun in the last edition, meaning there won't be a lot of drama over changes and adjustments they make to the setting.
3. Its different enough from both FR and Ebberon that WOTC won't feel like its a book that's competing with their own products.
4. It lets them introduce psionics, which is in demand, in the most robust and accessible way.
I have a feeling WOTC is also going to put out some micro-campaign books... probably something like a trimmed down player's guide and campaign guide stuffed into one book. I bet we'll see this for an oriental setting, Ravenloft, a desert/arabian setting, and perhaps a few others that they feel are too setting specific to base a year's worth of campaign books around. That probably won't happen until 2011 or later, though.
Once they get the third campaign setting out, too, they need to put a little more focus in the planes and set up the top level idea that all the different campaign settings are just different material planes in the same planar universe. With epic play now a standard part of campaigns, I think it would do them well to get the gaming public to start seeing all the different settings as just small pieces or one large world, rather than getting players to pick one setting that they like and focus on only that one (and thus not buying the books for the other settings as well.)
4. It lets them introduce psionics, which is in demand, in the most robust and accessible way.
That's the biggest reason right there. With Gem Dragons in the Draconomicon and Psionics in the PHB it makes sense for the latest setting to prominently feature Psionics as well.
I have a feeling WOTC is also going to put out some micro-campaign books... probably something like a trimmed down player's guide and campaign guide stuffed into one book.
WotC will not combine the DM's guide and the Player's guide for any setting. We can see evidence of this policy continuing via the new Dragon and Dungeon shake up. Now that isn't to say WotC won't trim both books down, perhaps even make them soft cover... But WotC will not combine the two books (unless there's a policy change).
Once they get the third campaign setting out, too, they need to put a little more focus in the planes and set up the top level idea that all the different campaign settings are just different material planes in the same planar universe. With epic play now a standard part of campaigns, I think it would do them well to get the gaming public to start seeing all the different settings as just small pieces or one large world, rather than getting players to pick one setting that they like and focus on only that one (and thus not buying the books for the other settings as well.)
Since Spelljammer and Planescape are already core (in a way), they could easily do something like this via Dragon & Dungeon (and save us all some change!
).1. It seems to be a popular setting, and there's not a lot of negativity towards it.
Really? other than a small handful of vocal proponents on these forums, I have met very few gamers with a positive view of the setting. Now that's just gamers within my region that I have gamed with (Ohio and neighboring states) through the RPGA and con attendance, but favorite and hated settings is always an interesting conversation. starter.
Not saying it's totally representative, but I have met quite a few people and haven't met many with fodn memories of Dark Sun. (I have seen a lot of scorn towards it)
Now all we can say for sure is the following settings are off the table or highly unlikely:
1. Forgotten Realms (done)
2. Eberron (comign this year)
3. Planescape (it's core now)
4. Ravenloft (Core now, it's been mentioned that domains will be featured as articles in Dragon from time to time and their floating about in the astral soup)
5. Spelljammer (the new cosmology allows for this in core and Spelljammers can be purchased in the Manual of the Planes, so it's unlikely that it will be expanded upon as a setting)
1. There was a Dark Sun article in Dragon #364. Seriously.
2. I hear Dark Sun is an oldy. They said we'd be surprised. Bringing back old stuff is always surprising.
3. While Oriental Adventures may make sense because of the Ki power source, do consider that the Player's Handbook 3 will likely also possess the Psionic power source (split four-and-four, I figure), and I hear that Dark Sun has some relation to that.
I don't doubt the validity of Oriental Adventures. Maybe in 2011. But the evidence as I have seen it (and therefore am subject to being wrong if I haven't been presented all evidence equally), Dark Sun is the setting of 2010.
Sounds fun, to be honest.
That's the biggest reason right there. With Gem Dragons in the Draconomicon and Psionics in the PHB it makes sense for the latest setting to prominently feature Psionics as well.
WotC will not combine the DM's guide and the Player's guide for any setting. We can see evidence of this policy continuing via the new Dragon and Dungeon shake up. Now that isn't to say WotC won't trim both books down, perhaps even make them soft cover... But WotC will not combine the two books (unless there's a policy change).
Since Spelljammer and Planescape are already core (in a way), they could easily do something like this via Dragon & Dungeon (and save us all some change!
Remember that Psionics has not been confirmed for PHB3.
Where will your theory be if Psionics is not in the PHB3 but in PHB4?
I see the settings for the next couple of years as:
2010 Greyhawk
2011 Dark Sun or Dragonlance
2012 Dragonlance or Dark Sun
I like 2012 for Dark Sun just for silly reasons of having a post-apocalyptic world being released in the year some people believe will be the apocalyptic end of our world. I guess I have an odd sense of humor
Things point more evidentally to Dark Sun.
1. There was a Dark Sun article in Dragon #364. Seriously.
2. I hear Dark Sun is an oldy. They said we'd be surprised. Bringing back old stuff is always surprising.
3. While Oriental Adventures may make sense because of the Ki power source, do consider that the Player's Handbook 3 will likely also possess the Psionic power source (split four-and-four, I figure), and I hear that Dark Sun has some relation to that.
I don't doubt the validity of Oriental Adventures. Maybe in 2011. But the evidence as I have seen it (and therefore am subject to being wrong if I haven't been presented all evidence equally), Dark Sun is the setting of 2010.
Sounds fun, to be honest.
There's no reason that a theoretical Oriental setting wouldn't make use of psionics as well, though.
Remember that Psionics has not been confirmed for PHB3.
Where will your theory be if Psionics is not in the PHB3 but in PHB4?
My theory would then be pushed off for another year. It may be more fortuitous if Psionics were released in 2011, that way we would already have our Gem Dragons (released in the winter of 2010) well ahead of the PHB and Dark Sun. The Draconomicon would then serve as a great preview of Psionics (and probably spur on more sales by curious people).
Of course the Theory works just as well if the Gem Draconomicon is released in winter of 2011, it would be a great cap stone for the Psionic year.
Of course if Psionic is pushed off to 2011, then in what direction would WotC go for 2010?
My bet is Greyhawk (for nostalgia and a non-post-apocalyptic high fantasy setting), a new Fantasy setting (perhaps Rich Burlow's setting?) or an Oriental Adventures Setting (obviously not L5R but maybe Kara-Tur or The Mahasarpa Campaign).
The only comfort zones I see being squeezed on this board are those of a certain person from New York who has to bash settings like GreyHawk to get himself turgid. I have been playing DnD since 1979 and have played in every setting released for the game in every editon thus far released. I don't tink that Eberron sucks.... Its just not my cup of tea and I find it immensely boring and lacking in anything that could possibly want to make me run a campaign there. IF you like it fine and good playing to you and yours. That is the part of the game that I really like the most....creativity. If Eberron turns on your creative juices then that is awesome...it just doesn't do that for me... GreyHawk and Dragon Lance do. So that's what I use.
Although I am a huge Greyhawk fan, I am hoping for Dark Sun for 2010 and GreyHawk for 2011. I am still converting my GH campaign to 4th so I need to have some time before GH4E comes to pass.
The only comfort zones I see being squeezed on this board are those of a certain person from New York who has to bash settings like GreyHawk to get himself turgid. I have been playing DnD since 1979 and have played in every setting released for the game in every editon thus far released. I don't tink that Eberron sucks.... Its just not my cup of tea and I find it immensely boring and lacking in anything that could possibly want to make me run a campaign there. IF you like it fine and good playing to you and yours. That is the part of the game that I really like the most....creativity. If Eberron turns on your creative juices then that is awesome...it just doesn't do that for me... GreyHawk and Dragon Lance do. So that's what I use.
Emphasis and coloring mine.
You do realize that you invalidated the Red text by following it up with the Blue. It's very hard to take anyone seriously when they say something does not suck, then describing the very thing with a fairly good definition of the word suck.
I may have quoted irontyrant here but, many people in this thread are committing the same fallacy.
The only comfort zones I see being squeezed on this board are those of a certain person from New York who has to bash settings like GreyHawk to get himself turgid.
I can't tell if that was a urban-east-coast-arrogance dig or not.
And also, I don't bash Greyhawk because it makes me feel uncomfortable, I bash Greyhawk because it makes me feel asleep. You'll not find anyone anywhere whose limits are pushed a little too far by Greyhawk. We're not debating what people should or should not use. You'll never hear me saying that something is or is not good for someone elses campaign. Or even that something should never be made. People should play Greyhawk like crazy. Go for it. People should use it as a world, get themselves a Gazetteer, go crazy. But that's not what we're talking about here.
Campaign Settings are once a year. Each one is an opportunity. It's an opportunity to change and contribute to the D&D world in a new way that changes the landscape of what we've come to expect. A new campaign setting should have new themes, new ideas, a new style.
They should not waste that opportunity on a setting that changes or contributes nothing. The only reason to do Greyhawk would be because it simply suffices, and because certain people like it.
You do realize that you invalidated the Red text by following it up with the Blue. It's very hard to take anyone seriously when they say something does not suck, then describing the very thing with the (a fairly good) definition of the word suck.
I may have quoted irontyrant here but, many people in this thread are committing the same fallacy.
And by the way, this.
Bel
One thing that lends credence to either Dragonlance or Greyhawk being the next setting is the fact that they were featured in the first Draconomicon with important or unique dragons from each being featured (Dragonlance has a whole stat write-up for the most famous green dragon in ANY setting, Cyan Bloodbane). If more dragons from each setting are featured in the next Draconomicon while Dark Sun sits it out, that will point even more in DL/GH's direction. One thing that I think helps DL's chances is the fact that the novels are all building up to something, then coming to a close at the end of 2009. Perhaps the reason for that is the fact that the new CS will start where the novels left off.
One thing I would not be opposed to is a combined CS/PG for future campaign settings. Make them about the size of the FRCG, have them front loaded with rules, and have some setting info take up the last 1/3-1/4 of the book. Then it becomes more like a rules supplement with setting info in the back. Then build on the setting in Dungeon in monthly installments. Or even make a new section for D&DI devoted exclusively to campaign settings.
I have a few questions. I am not all that familiar with Dark Sun, but are Gem Dragons or even standard MM dragons even in Dark Sun? I know there are Dragon Kings, but they are mortal defilers that have reached the point of transformation.
IIRC, the only dragons in Dark Sun are the Dragon Kings.
However, that doesn't preclude some creative game designer from finding a way to include them if they reboot the franchise for 4e. They'd have to find a way to incorporate Dragonborn (among several other races that weren't around 'back in the day') anyway, so they could link their origins somehow.
If more dragons from each setting are featured in the next Draconomicon while Dark Sun sits it out, that will point even more in DL/GH's direction.
Quite the contrary! Why would Cyan Bloodbane be in Draconomicon if they were going to do Dragonlance? Wouldn't they have held on for a Campaign Setting? I'm pretty sure these dragons, like the undead highlighted in Open Grave, were not chosen as preparation for future releases. They are there to allow you to do it yourself, often because they don't intend on releasing those things themselves. That's why we got Acererak and Dragotha... we're not gonna see White Plume Mountain re-released.
Besides, by then, we'll already know.
It's very hard to take anyone seriously when they say something does not suck, then describing the very thing with a fairly good definition of the word suck.
I may have quoted irontyrant here but, many people in this thread are committing the same fallacy.
Well, maybe he meant that he liked some of the stuff is added to the game, butthought the setting itself was bland and boring.
I don't know, just throwing that out there.
Partly because that's the way I feel. I'm ambivalent towards it, but I would rather run a game in another setting. I like some of the concepts and mechanics it introduced though.Dark Sun. Folks Psionics is coming, you know it I know it.
Everyone and their dog knows it.
Darksun is number 3. All of the designers want to do it. And they tried and failed to do it in 3e with those magazine releases because 3e's "Magic items are your character" was entirely opposite of what Dark Sun was about. (among other reasons)
After Dark Sun who knows. Personal hope? That Waterworld that they mentioned wanting to do. Or a completely not FR at all Al Qadim.
To your last bit... it is generally assumed that the Elemental power source won't come until PHB4, which would be just before that hypothetical 4th setting. A world that can combine elements in a truely fantastical way (anything from Exalted's Creation, to the 4 worlds in Margret Wies's Death Gate Cycle) would be perfect, IMO.
Land, sea, sun and sky.
Quite the contrary! Why would Cyan Bloodbane be in Draconomicon if they were going to do Dragonlance? Wouldn't they have held on for a Campaign Setting? I'm pretty sure these dragons, like the undead highlighted in Open Grave, were not chosen as preparation for future releases. They are there to allow you to do it yourself, often because they don't intend on releasing those things themselves. That's why we got Acererak and Dragotha... we're not gonna see White Plume Mountain re-released.
Besides, by then, we'll already know.
That argument might hold water if there were any in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (there are not).
The thing is, Cyan has been dead for years in setting, and since 2003 out of setting. Putting him in doesn't help DL gamers do anything, he is dead. As for non-DL gamers, it helps build curiosity about the setting. It helps hype the setting. Having nothing regarding a setting certainly doesn't build any sort of hype at all.
With 4e espousing "Everything is Core", I really just don't see how Dark Sun can pull that off, it cuts out a large portion of everything (especially Dragons if there are only Dragon Kings). Greyhawk will have a much easier time pulling it off, it can basically be built from the ground up since Living Greyhawk stuff is considered non-canon now. As to Dragonlance, a lot of the stuff that is in 4e draws from DL. For all the hate on the Kender, people sure ignore the fact that the 4e Halfling IS the kender (complete with practical immunity to fear, taunts, and being lucky).
As to the hints to the 2010 CS, the term defilers in the Witchalok article kinda ignores the fact that Witchaloks were heavily featured recently in a Penny Arcade comic series that was lampooning the Dragonlance film. People also bring up the goliath mini holding an obsidian weapon (Dark Sun features low metal, but has bone and crystal weapons), you know, kinda like the crystal axe the goliath on the cover of the PHB2 is holding. I think Goliaths just use crystal weaponry.
The Dark Sun setting has enough in it to be a region within a larger realm, (like the 4E city of Sigil is), but I don't think there's enough variety in Dark Sun to make a whole campaign setting out of it.
I'd like to see an Astral Sea campaign guide -- there's plenty of room to develop new places to go and things to see in there, and maybe even a place to put the Plane of the Dark Sun!
The different planes are already getting their own books independent of the campaign a year. The Elemental Chaos book is first and comes out at the end of the year I believe.
Do we actually have any confirmed details of what this supplement contains?
Do we actually have any confirmed details of what this supplement contains?
Creamy Nougat.
But no we don't. Other than it includes info on the Abyss.
That argument might hold water if there were any in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (there are not).
Dragons aren't a big enough deal in FR to have to make unique ones.
Dragons aren't a big enough deal in FR to have to make unique ones.
Yeah, some nut job riles them up and sends armadas of them swooping over the landscape every 100 years or so...
Based on what I have read, they want the next campaign setting that they release to be different from Eberron (magi-punk) and the Forgotten Realms (High fantasy).
Now, not to discount what others know, but isn't Mudbunny in a better position to find things out than we are? Based on that, I'm going to have to lend some credibility to his claims over those of others.
So, different from Eberron AND FR. Dragonlance...too much like FR. Greyhawk...too much like FR. Birthright...too much like FR. Ravenloft...core in the Shadowfell in the MotP now. Planescape...core in the MotP now. Spelljammer...core in the MotP now.
That leaves Darksun, Mystara (though I don't know much about it so it may be too much like FR), Al Qadim, Oriental Adventures, or a completely brand new setting.
Oriental adventures isn't to be likely, since only wire-fu and anime would satisfy pop culture...thus upsetting that samurai drama junk. Al Qadim's probably out because didn't have a huge following (though I liked it) and doesn't even have a forum on here (and people are just too stupid NOT to incorrectly associate it with Al Qaeda). Darksun I figure has at least a 50/50 shot, since I know plenty who love it, but there are obviously plenty that don't, too. Mystara I just don't know enough about to predict, but it just doesn't look very likely. So that leaves an entirely brand new setting...or Darksun. Flip a coin, boys.
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Shadowrun's rules have been crap from day one. Totally love the story...utterly despise the system. It's clunky and crappy and overdone. WoD isn't far behind in crappy mechanics, and it doesn't even have a good story to lift it up. Sure, I'd like more detailed mechanics regarding social and other non-com encounters, but the last time I made a suggestion in that regard, I got flamed. I didn't care for L5R's system, it was just unnecessary. Serenity had an "interesting" system, but it looked clunky and overdone and unnecessary also. Shadow or Dark Side or any other sort of quantifiable taint is just...stupid. Always strikes me as a hold-over from the idiocy of that moron Lovecraft. I really don't ever want to see that sort of nonsense in any game, ever again. But, I know I'm the only one who feels that way, and I know I'll never get that wish.
However, I agree that I don't particularly want to see a 4e sourcebook. It would re-hash over stuff we've seen time and again, such as the city of Greyhawk, and they might shoehorn in changes in a way that is too severe for my tastes.
I was extremely happy at the useful Greyhawk content in Dragon and Dungeon under Eric Mona's stewardship. They enhanced the exsiting setting by producing articles on locations we'd never seen before and produced write-ups on interesting npcs.
I'd prefer to see a regular article in Dragon or Dungeon detailing a location, an npc, or something like guidelines on a particular deities' domains and unique feats for their divine worshippers. They could rotate the settings and put Greyhawk in the mix.
Prince Ali, fabulous is he...
Mystara (though I don't know much about it so it may be too much like FR)
I would put Mystara in the "Too much like FR" category as well. Like the others mentioned, its pretty much a baseline fantasy world.
The only thing that isn't like FR or Eberron, in my opinion, is Dark Sun.
I didn't like it. But it would definitely be different. And since magic items aren't the end all, be all for characters now, I can see it work.
So my vote is Dark Sun, or something completely new.
PIGS IN SPACE??????
Based on the premice that you can teleport anywhere you know where you're going, and combines it with telescopes to have FTL spaceships. Also, Dragons rule the galaxy, because they can.
A 4E version may play a bit more like Stargate, with the Linked Portal ritual being cheap and low level. (50gold per use, wih an existing "Ring")
It goes a bit beyond Ebberon's "magitech", slapping "Vibro", "Power" or "Grav" onto all the melee weapons, and refluffing bows as rifles, crossbows as guns.
Space-wise, I hope we will see some setting that has Aether-ships. It is so under utilized but so much fun that it really deserves to be seen more often. It also can be a nice medium ground between full-blown science and more fantastical stuff.
Dark Rising Sun...
Show
...the day to appease one's ancestors had arrived, and the little boy followed his family, and all the other families, to the graveyard. Were the legends serious? Did the dead walk, after everyone in the land had placed food and trinkets and sheets of runes before their graves? Would his father, once an honorable samurai, rise from his early grave and eat cakes while all the living spent the afternoon in quiet reflection in the tea house? The little boy wanted dearly to sneak out and see the dead on their day, but it was forbidden for anyone but priests to be outside this afternoon...
...preparations for the ritual were almost complete. The despoiler had realized, years ago, that this world with its dark sun was nearly sucked dry. He had researched the oldest texts, risking and almost losing his life and self many times in his arcane studies. Finally he had found it - a way off. A way to another realm where no others had yet tasted the sweet life energy of the land itself. Where people lived on the land, not from it. He smiled, wondering what he should call himself as they worshiped him as a god. His acolyte slipped the final rotting carcass, traced with runes, into place. Energies unknown flowed about him, and as blinding light came from the circle, he felt the world crack into pieces...
...it was suddenly much warmer in the tea house, and something else was wrong the boy could not quite put his finger on. The little boy could see his mother and sisters twitch and adjust positions. He finally had it - he could no longer hear the plants in the tea garden outside sway in the wind. There was a strange sound then, like a great tide of rushing water, and then something changed. The head of their hosting family, a samurai in the Emperor's own guard, finished his prayer to his ancestors and looked up at them.
"I am going outside, to see what is the matter. I have made my appeasements, and the dead shall not be angered. Please stay here."
When he arrived outside, the samurai found himself unprepared for the first time in his life. His mind reeled. Where was the tea garden? Where had all this sand come from? He stared out over the blinding white world and began unlatching his ceremonial armor, unbearable in the heat. He and several men near him drew their katana as a great insect taller than a man came near. That was when he heard the voice in his head...
...the day to appease one's ancestors had arrived, and the little boy followed his family, and all the other families, to the graveyard. Were the legends serious? Did the dead walk, after everyone in the land had placed food and trinkets and sheets of runes before their graves? Would his father, once an honorable samurai, rise from his early grave and eat cakes while all the living spent the afternoon in quiet reflection in the tea house? The little boy wanted dearly to sneak out and see the dead on their day, but it was forbidden for anyone but priests to be outside this afternoon...
...preparations for the ritual were almost complete. The despoiler had realized, years ago, that this world with its dark sun was nearly sucked dry. He had researched the oldest texts, risking and almost losing his life and self many times in his arcane studies. Finally he had found it - a way off. A way to another realm where no others had yet tasted the sweet life energy of the land itself. Where people lived on the land, not from it. He smiled, wondering what he should call himself as they worshiped him as a god. His acolyte slipped the final rotting carcass, traced with runes, into place. Energies unknown flowed about him, and as blinding light came from the circle, he felt the world crack into pieces...
...it was suddenly much warmer in the tea house, and something else was wrong the boy could not quite put his finger on. The little boy could see his mother and sisters twitch and adjust positions. He finally had it - he could no longer hear the plants in the tea garden outside sway in the wind. There was a strange sound then, like a great tide of rushing water, and then something changed. The head of their hosting family, a samurai in the Emperor's own guard, finished his prayer to his ancestors and looked up at them.
"I am going outside, to see what is the matter. I have made my appeasements, and the dead shall not be angered. Please stay here."
When he arrived outside, the samurai found himself unprepared for the first time in his life. His mind reeled. Where was the tea garden? Where had all this sand come from? He stared out over the blinding white world and began unlatching his ceremonial armor, unbearable in the heat. He and several men near him drew their katana as a great insect taller than a man came near. That was when he heard the voice in his head...
With 4e espousing "Everything is Core", I really just don't see how Dark Sun can pull that off, it cuts out a large portion of everything (especially Dragons if there are only Dragon Kings).
It is surprisingly easy, and by doing the one thing they hadn't previously in the setting: exploring all of the various ages more comprehensively, and allowing for campaigns in any of them. The Blue Age, Green Age, Brown Age, and Heroic Age are all rather different. Moreover, the end of the Green Age and the beginning of the Brown Age combined are like a setting unto itself.
The Blue Age is a waterworld setting, with just enough tech to allow for actual underwater campaigns with airbreathing characters. There is a lot of unknowns and unexplored possibilities with regards to this age.
The beginning of the Green Age to the late middle of it is a world with kingdoms and empires in various stages of peace and war, and a more traditional high fantasy setting. The only major differences are, the gods do not really exist and thus do not provide divine magic, elemental priests instead fulfill that role mechanically speaking, and psionics replaces the bulk of magic use, with only a tiny number of magic users, and then only towards the end of this time period.
The late Green Age and early Brown Age is a world-at-war type setting, with genocidal human armies marching across the world, slaughtering entire races across the globe. Defiler magic is simultaneously beginning to destroy the world, and the metal of the world is being mined at a furious rate. Psionics are still potent, but are being used more for war, and less for sophisticated cultural reasons, for civil works, for infrastructure, and so on.
The Brown Age is our post-apocalyptic setting, with the world devastated by a surprisingly successful, but woefully damaging genocidal world war. Entire ecosystems have crumbled, the elements are quite out of balance, and magically-and-psionically-enhanced evolution is driving many creatures towards extreme forms for their survival. The sentients are now focused primarily in villages that must struggle daily, or in city-states controlled by god-like entities who exert overwhelming control, constantly. Slavery is now the norm, bloodsport has become the entertainment of choice, defiling magic has been mostly outlawed and all magic-use is regarded with suspicion. Not psionics, however, since everyone is born with some sort of psionic talent, some quite potent once trained, others very trivial (like generating a breeze that affects only themselves, or changing their hair color, et al).
The Heroic Age has a handful of the sorcerer-monarchs falling for the first time since the genocidal wars of the virtually-forgotten past, the Dragon being slain, and a city-state made as free as has been seen on Athas for millennia. However, now an undead dragon-king replaces the Dragon, and is perhaps more dangerous. A massive thri-kreen empire has an entrance to the region that was once blocked off, and sees an opportunity to conquer new territory. There is more, as well. Suffice it to say, while there is much change, little of it is for the better, but there are points of hope here and there that the world can be healed in the long run.
So, just cover each age comprehensively, instead of focusing on just one age as past material has, and voila: now you can incorporate everything into the setting very easily...just not all in the same time period.
Divine magic will thus be available, dragons will exist, and the sorcerer kings (which were much like the Epic characters in FR) will not be around to get in the way of adventuring PCs. Defiling will still exist, it's unique, and flavorful, and potentially workable in a fair way in 4e. Wild talent may or may not be necessary, depending on the psionic power source, so who knows there. A single blanket advantage (or limited choice of advantages) will be applied to any race on Athas (thus eliminating the need to make "advanced" versions of already printed races, and allowing races normally native to Athas to be used fairly in other settings). This sort of setting would play very much like Star Wars Ep IV: A New Hope, I'd think.
-
Darksun is a dying world on the verge of rebirth, like a phoenix from the ashes, if enough heroes of proper strength step forward to take up the task. A new age dawns where the world begins to heal, but those who served in its destruction are still numerous and if heroes don't step forward to stop them, the world may be doomed anyway.
Gods, who left so long ago that no one remembers that they'd ever been, have returned to care for the world they left behind. Their return has shaken the last hold of the primordials' power over the planes and the world, catastrophically rearranging them in course with the will of the gods. Some people have embraced this new opportunity to serve a higher calling, while many resent having been forgotten and abandoned, only to be interfered with now. The sorcerer kings have fallen in the midst of the returned deities, and now only the decendants of their Templars remain, trying in vain to reassert their ancestors' former authority and perhaps resurrect their rulers.
The "art" of defiling is still practiced, and some have taken it up for no reason but to maintain the status quo, to prevent the world from returning to a state where their power could be challenged. The races of Athas are as hardy and determined as ever, the approaching end of their long struggle for survival has not dulled their edge at all. Mental powers, both disciplined and wild, are still most common and will likely remain so forever.
Races once thought extinct, come out of hiding, nurtured (or in some cases forced) by the returned gods to resume their place in the world. Many have drastically changed their cultures to serve their need to remain unknown. What few legends might remain of their races are meaningless in light of their return to the world. Some of these races have been completely forgotten, and no stories or ruins tell of their time...their arrival in a village always leads the locals to either a sense of wonder, or fear. Many of these returned races bring with them knowledge thought long dead...knowledge of other magics, and ancient crafts, from their long forgotten empires.
This new age has brought forth hordes of monstrosities both forgotten and new. They range freely across the scarred and scorched world in the places between villages and cities. The collapse of the sorcerer kings and their templars has left some city-states completely abandoned shells, while others barely cling to existence. More people than ever before live in small, far-flung rural communities, in hopes that should the sorcerer kings and their templars return, they might escape notice. And where the races of Athas flee, monstrous evils take their place.
Athas is a suffering and broken world, gripped in new turmoil in a desperate struggle to breathe life again. Only the most resolute and commited heroes may successfully guide and protect this once ancient, now fetal world into the full glory its rebirth. In this war for future fate of the world, will you take up arms? Will you face the unknown hordes of the wilds, and the vengeful remnants of evil rulers to give Athas its new life? Come then, adventurer, your destiny awaits upon this burnt land, under a Dark Sun.
Greyhawk
Greyhawk is a venerable setting and has what I call the over-development complex. The socio-history and geopolitics are complex enough at this point to match Europe during the feudal era. This leads to those who invested the time and effort to master the setting to their love of it (and vice-versa). If one were to update it to a more accessible setting for new player and fourth edition, while giving it a unique spin among classic fantasy settings, it could be done (Rary swallows up smaller nations and others band together for safety - no one is really sure who is on whose side, paranoia runs rampant). However, I feel that this could be accomplished with a few key articles and does not warrant an entire setting book and/or player's guide.
Thank you for contributing.
THREAD = CANCELLED BY ORIGINAL POSTER
:D ;)
Ki is dead, my revelation is naught, and I cancel this thread.
Thank you for contributing.
THREAD = CANCELLED BY ORIGINAL POSTER
:D ;)
It is definitely a crying shame too. Ki is a much cooler concept than psionics could ever hope to be.
Interrupted By Playtest Article Revelation.
Ki is dead, my revelation is naught, and I cancel this thread.
Thank you for contributing.
THREAD = CANCELLED BY ORIGINAL POSTER
:D ;)
Sir, I DISAGREE.
This revelation makes an OA settingmore tenable, not less.
Putting all Asiany themed classes in one basket makes less sense. Putting a warrior who trains his mind in order to focus his soul, the Monk, into the psionic power source, the power source of the mind, makes a lot of sense.
An OA setting now has more options, because it has the freedom to put Ninja in Shadow, Soul Blade in Psionic, Samurai as a Fighter Build, and to me Sorcerer fits right in.
I say long live the unnamed Oriental Setting in light of this new information. I am willing to say that I think this, more than Dark Sun, may be the new setting. In fact, killing the ki power source helps mask it, making it more of a surprise.
It is definitely a crying shame too. Ki is a much cooler concept than psionics could ever hope to be.
I really don't think they are that different. Both are based around the concept of 'power from within oneself'. From the beginning I was wondering how they were going to differentiate the two. From the looks of it, so were they.
In short ki and psionics is six of one and a half dozen of the other anyway.
D&D should be about enabling players to play their fantasy selves in an interactive world - and for whatever reason (80's & 90's pop culture, my own study of Japanese and Chinese history), some of my fantasy hero selves are from more Asian-themed myths and legends, and I know this is true of many many others. Let's bring back Hengeyokai FTW!
You don't have to go home, folks, but you can't stay here!
:D
You guys missed it. I closed the thread.
You don't have to go home, folks, but you can't stay here!
:D
I'm pretty sure people will quit posting once the thread is actually either locked or deleted. Til then, seems like a continuing discussion to me.
I have to agree with a previous poster that the removal of the Ki source makes an OA setting MORE possible, not less. If all power sources are equally valid for all archetypes in such a setting with a small change of cultural fluff, then such a setting has more merit to be a full setting. A whole setting based on one power source is thin and weak. This is good for OA, not bad.
The late Green Age and early Brown Age is a world-at-war type setting, with genocidal human armies marching across the world, slaughtering entire races across the globe.
Why so racist against humans? ;)
I vote that they make Ravenloft 4e
It's core now. Ain't gonna happen.
OA is still possible, I doubt it will go forward as its quite a narrow setting.
I still think something Low Key but Heroic might work. Hell, it could be some crazy future super world where there are no peasants just people who aren't level 2 yet.
The whole point of Dark Sun if they do bring it back is that its' different. There is no reason to bring the gods back or have more dragons. If every world must be exactly the same, then let's just have one setting.
The gods actually may not come back, but if not, there will be some sort of alteration to allow otherwise normal clerics to function. They may not add completely unnecessary things, but they certaintly won't deny or restrict class or race choices...they won't restrict materials either. So, clerics as they are now WILL somehow be a part of Darksun...which probably means, but doesn't garauntee, gods. We do know at least that they will be using the core cosmology...unless they change their minds on it like they did ki. Which...they'd better change their minds on it BEFORE Eberron comes out, because Eberron has an interesting and important cosmology of its own.
That is something I think really turns everything on its head. There was a way to reasonably speculate before (not that anyone aside from a tiny handful of posters were ever reasonable in their speculation) on what was coming out based on what WotC had said about certain concepts they were going to follow no matter what. The power sources mentioned were one of those things. Now Ki is gone and they've "colored outside the lines" as a result. I find it refreshing and comforting, but it makes any kind of sensible speculation nearly impossible. I guess it's a free-for-all now.
The gods actually may not come back, but if not, there will be some sort of alteration to allow otherwise normal clerics to function. They may not add completely unnecessary things, but they certaintly won't deny or restrict class or race choices...they won't restrict materials either. So, clerics as they are now WILL somehow be a part of Darksun...which probably means, but doesn't garauntee, gods. We do know at least that they will be using the core cosmology...unless they change their minds on it like they did ki. Which...they'd better change their minds on it BEFORE Eberron comes out, because Eberron has an interesting and important cosmology of its own.
That is something I think really turns everything on its head. There was a way to reasonably speculate before (not that anyone aside from a tiny handful of posters were ever reasonable in their speculation) on what was coming out based on what WotC had said about certain concepts they were going to follow no matter what. The power sources mentioned were one of those things. Now Ki is gone and they've "colored outside the lines" as a result. I find it refreshing and comforting, but it makes any kind of sensible speculation nearly impossible. I guess it's a free-for-all now.
Isn't the plan for them to use the elements of the core cosmology, rather than the "core cosmology" exactly??
I imagine, for example, the "Feywild" will be Thelanis and Lammania while the "Shadowfell" will be Dolurrh and Mabar, or something to that effect.On Dark Sun & option exclusion...I'm not so 100% convinced the devs will try to include everything in every campaign setting. AFAIK, that's the job of the core world, not every world. If it makes sense to exclude divine from Athas, I imagine the devs will break symmetry with other worlds rather than try to shoehorn it in, no?
Isn't the plan for them to use the elements of the core cosmology, rather than the "core cosmology" exactly??
Actually the plan, as I recall it, is that the core cosmology model and the 3.X Eberron cosmology are two seperate explanations for the same cosmology. And there will be only one plane corresponding to the Shadowfell and one corresponding to the Feywild....and no I cannot recall which they are.
Isn't the plan for them to use the elements of the core cosmology, rather than the "core cosmology" exactly??
On Dark Sun & option exclusion...I'm not so 100% convinced the devs will try to include everything in every campaign setting. AFAIK, that's the job of the core world, not every world. If it makes sense to exclude divine from Athas, I imagine the devs will break symmetry with other worlds rather than try to shoehorn it in, no?
There will never be a published setting in which you cannot play a given class by default...ever. At best, what would not be allowed in Darksun would be feats, races, and classes that appear in FR and Eberron. Just like there might not be kalashtar or artificers in FR. But if it's in the core books, it's in every setting, period. Gods so far seem to be the only exception.
That CAN change, but there's no foreseeable indication that they will even consider it. "Because that's how it used to be" is not something that's likely to get much consideration at all as a reason for anything, if what happened to FR is any indication. Personally, I think it's a good thing, too.
The gods actually may not come back, but if not, there will be some sort of alteration to allow otherwise normal clerics to function.
Unnecessary. There are two ways to put clerics in without gods.
1. 4e PoL clerics don't actually get their power from gods anyway. They get them from rituals. DS divine characters would become like the 3.5 archivist, searching old ruins and temples for scraps of divine power.
2. Iirc, there's a group of characters in DS called templars, who gain thier power from worshiping the Dragon-Kings. In this case, divine magic becomes templar magic.
The elemental "clerics" would be a part of the elemental source.
Defiler magic ist just reflavoured Shadow magic.
If it's Darksun...they won't be doing a previous age or anything else. It's going to get the same treatment FR did. Probably a significant timeline advancement, for starters. In which the gods will return to the world they had forgotten (likely the idea being that the war with the primordials only JUST ended). That return will cause ALL sorts of problems. Bahamut and Tiamat will bring dragons along, and the cosmology will be rearranged to suit the gods desires (or needs, whatever).
Divine magic will thus be available, dragons will exist, and the sorcerer kings (which were much like the Epic characters in FR) will not be around to get in the way of adventuring PCs. Defiling will still exist, it's unique, and flavorful, and potentially workable in a fair way in 4e. Wild talent may or may not be necessary, depending on the psionic power source, so who knows there. A single blanket advantage (or limited choice of advantages) will be applied to any race on Athas (thus eliminating the need to make "advanced" versions of already printed races, and allowing races normally native to Athas to be used fairly in other settings). This sort of setting would play very much like Star Wars Ep IV: A New Hope, I'd think.
-
Darksun is a dying world on the verge of rebirth, like a phoenix from the ashes, if enough heroes of proper strength step forward to take up the task. A new age dawns where the world begins to heal, but those who served in its destruction are still numerous and if heroes don't step forward to stop them, the world may be doomed anyway.
Gods, who left so long ago that no one remembers that they'd ever been, have returned to care for the world they left behind. Their return has shaken the last hold of the primordials' power over the planes and the world, catastrophically rearranging them in course with the will of the gods. Some people have embraced this new opportunity to serve a higher calling, while many resent having been forgotten and abandoned, only to be interfered with now. The sorcerer kings have fallen in the midst of the returned deities, and now only the decendants of their Templars remain, trying in vain to reassert their ancestors' former authority and perhaps resurrect their rulers.
The "art" of defiling is still practiced, and some have taken it up for no reason but to maintain the status quo, to prevent the world from returning to a state where their power could be challenged. The races of Athas are as hardy and determined as ever, the approaching end of their long struggle for survival has not dulled their edge at all. Mental powers, both disciplined and wild, are still most common and will likely remain so forever.
Races once thought extinct, come out of hiding, nurtured (or in some cases forced) by the returned gods to resume their place in the world. Many have drastically changed their cultures to serve their need to remain unknown. What few legends might remain of their races are meaningless in light of their return to the world. Some of these races have been completely forgotten, and no stories or ruins tell of their time...their arrival in a village always leads the locals to either a sense of wonder, or fear. Many of these returned races bring with them knowledge thought long dead...knowledge of other magics, and ancient crafts, from their long forgotten empires.
This new age has brought forth hordes of monstrosities both forgotten and new. They range freely across the scarred and scorched world in the places between villages and cities. The collapse of the sorcerer kings and their templars has left some city-states completely abandoned shells, while others barely cling to existence. More people than ever before live in small, far-flung rural communities, in hopes that should the sorcerer kings and their templars return, they might escape notice. And where the races of Athas flee, monstrous evils take their place.
Athas is a suffering and broken world, gripped in new turmoil in a desperate struggle to breathe life again. Only the most resolute and commited heroes may successfully guide and protect this once ancient, now fetal world into the full glory its rebirth. In this war for future fate of the world, will you take up arms? Will you face the unknown hordes of the wilds, and the vengeful remnants of evil rulers to give Athas its new life? Come then, adventurer, your destiny awaits upon this burnt land, under a Dark Sun.
this is by far the best pitch ive seen for darksun in 4e.
this is by far the best pitch ive seen for darksun in 4e.
I was beginning to think no one even read that. lol