Down to business.
With the new releases this month, the Psionic power source has gotten a tremendous amount of support, all in one major burst. Psionic Power was obviously designed with such in mind, but Dark Sun's emphasis on the power source within its world gave a surprisingly robust boost to the source as well. The concepts covered have expanded quickly (and sometimes surprisingly - I'm looking at you, psionic cantrips, and you, Wild Battlemind).
Given the discussion leading up to Psionic Power, and the wide variety of ideas tossed about there, I'm curious, now, to see what we have that people are satisfied with, and what people still feel is lacking. With Future Releases in mind (most likely articles, at this point), I'd love to get some discussion going on what folks feel has been done right thus far, and what can still be added.
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Me, Personally...
As you can probably tell, I'm impressed with the variety of new options. Many concepts that I wanted to see covered have been covered - though not all in the manner I would have preferred.
First, my complaints:
- TK Psions (and now Shaper Psions) still don't have a satisfying selection of 1st-level at-will powers - though it's quickly remedied as they gain levels. While a variety of thematically distinct options may work for 1st level arcane characters, those with psychic powers are often portrayed as specialists in pop culture media. As someone who has played (and DMed for) a 1st level TK Psion, it's just strange to have so few options. Especially since those at-will powers double as your Encounter powers.
- The "Power of the Mind" still relies on hitting creatures with sticks (or fists, or swords, etc) three-classes-out-of-four. While I'm guessing we won't be seeing a 5th or 6th class anywhere in the near future (or, potentially, ever), mixing implements and implement powers into the existing classes (specifically Ardent, but potentially Battlemind too) isn't an impossible task.
- The mechanics of augmentation, epic tier powers, and specific problem powers, remain, y'know, a problem. Hopefully these things are adressed in some fashion - even if it's merely an official statement that "No, that's how these things are supposed to work."
Next, my satisfied-but-not-completely-s:
- At-will telepathy/telekinesis? Finally available. But not specific to the telepath or the tk psion. I am very appreciative of the Wild Talent options, but I think they do serve to highlight the ridiculousness of the Psion's granted powers
- X-o-kinesis (Pyrokinesis
). We have the Firestarted paragon path. It does as I presumed they would do, and allows you to use force powers as fire powers. It's interesting, and does its thing. But (and this complaint will come up again), it's just one of those concepts that I would have rather seen available in heroic tier - optimally, from level 1. - Shaping. I like what they've done with it. It's similar to how I would have done it (making dreams and nightmares manifest, rather than shaping raw ectoplasm). However, mechanically it leaves a lot to be desired. The powers could be Wizard powers, except for the Augment keyword. I think that's a waste. I think psionic shaper really comes into its own, conceptually, only with the "Master Summoner" paragon path (which doesn't at all sound like a psionic class - *sigh*). The Evolved Form level 16 feature is a concept that could have been available for all of their "summons" - either in the powers themselves (via augment) or a class feature - and which would have cemented shaping as something distinct from arcane, divine, or primal "summoning". Give us a base creature, yes - but let the psion actually shape some aspect of that creature on the fly.
- The Wilder. I love it, as implemented in Dark Sun, as a Theme. Actually, I intended to write some "but not completely" component to this, but I don't really have a complaint about the Wilder implementation. I really do love it.
Finally, things I feel are still lacking:
- The "soulknife" concept. At this point, it's so easily remedied that I'll be honestly surprised if we don't see an official version in Dragon within the next year. The concept of Themes, as introduced in Dark Sun, really does give the perfect means for implementing a "class" with as little identity as the soulknife. Add to this the new build options for Battlemind and Monk (and the convenience of their ability score overlapping perfectly) in Psionic Power, and you could have a picture perfect Harrier Soulknife or Iron Soul Soulknife.
- A non-"hit-you-with-a-stick" psionic leader. Conceptually, I don't know if there's any room for another full class - I would suspect that it would trample over the Psion and/or the Ardent. For that, and other, reasons, I would really prefer the Ardent be given implement-based, non-"hit-you-with-a-stick" options - options that would move it more toward the Bard's design space (as a use-a-weapon-or-don't style leader).
- More "precognitive" themed builds / powers / paths / destinies. I think the concept is represented slightly already, but I could see it being implemented in one of the classes (Battlemind is the one that resonates most with me), or as a Theme.
Other folks' thoughts?
I mostly love how the 4e Elan have been done, except one thing - for a "race" that is supposed to be good for all the Psionic classes, their racial and feats keyed off the racial pigeon-hole them exclusively into Psion territory, because it's Int only, and Psion is the only Psionic class that uses Int at all. The supposedly awesome Psionic race is vastly better as Arcanists than at Psionics!
Adding the implement using psionic leader will be difficult, though not Impossible. I agree that fitting it into ardent would probably be better then trying to create a whole new class, but adding a ranged, implement build to the ardent would require several things, including a way to get the implement proficiencies, multiple powers accross every level, probably a whole new build, and you'd have to try to set it up to allow crossover with the old stuff, so it doesn't just turn into a whole separate class anyway. New build and powers should probably have a strong telepathy theme. I mean, telepathy is just such an obvious theme for a psionic leader....
I love the Firestarter, but I'd love more heroic tier support for X-kinesis types too.
I mostly love how the 4e Elan have been done, except one thing - for a "race" that is supposed to be good for all the Psionic classes, their racial and feats keyed off the racial pigeon-hole them exclusively into Psion territory, because it's Int only, and Psion is the only Psionic class that uses Int at all. The supposedly awesome Psionic race is vastly better as Arcanists than at Psionics!
This was my immediate mental complaint. I thought it might be better to houserule Int as Wis – there's at least 1 build for each Psionic class that uses Wisdom as a secondary. Or perhaps doing it Int, Wis, or Cha, but that favours Psions and Ardents more than Monks and Battleminds, relegated the second two to be somewhat weaker, using their secondary ability score, and pigeonholing them as specific builds (more of a problem for Monks than Battleminds, who just wouldn't be able to take advantage of it as a Harrier).
I'm pretty much in agreement with all of your comments, especially about wanting soulknife as a background and wanting an implement using psionic leader. Frankly, I still feel the ardent should have been implement based to begin with.... but whatever.
Adding the implement using psionic leader will be difficult, though not Impossible. I agree that fitting it into ardent would probably be better then trying to create a whole new class, but adding a ranged, implement build to the ardent would require several things, including a way to get the implement proficiencies, multiple powers accross every level, probably a whole new build, and you'd have to try to set it up to allow crossover with the old stuff, so it doesn't just turn into a whole separate class anyway. New build and powers should probably have a strong telepathy theme. I mean, telepathy is just such an obvious theme for a psionic leader....
Telepaths would step on Psions' toes, methinks. Empaths would GREATLY step on Ardents' toes, and anyone who thought otherwise before Psionic Power should take a look at the book, because it basically defines Ardents as Empaths. Interestingly, the book really doesn't say much at all on why you use a melee weapon rather than an implement… this allows for future implement or at least a ranged weapon in the future without retconning that extensive information.
Finally, I REALLY don't think Battleminds should EVER have implements. Battleminds are very thematically tied to melee combat. They run on adrenaline rushes; you don't get that sort of thing if you're in the back blasting, even as a defender.
Ardent can be easily expanded on that you don't need a new class. They'll probably go ranged weapon before even bothering with implements.
Psion could do with more builds, and I think that going with an egotist like build, except one that focuses on transforming others and warping their flesh as opposed to themselves might be a valid build.
The Battlemind is pretty complete now, as there's no psionic class that has more builds than they do, and each of them are certainly distinct.
Monk could do with some technique feats much like the martial classes to give them the feel of having different fighting styles with a lot of variablity, with styles like Southern Mountain Fist vs. Fiery Gargoyle Style.
I read the ardent fluf in Psionic Power, and I was forcing myself to add "by hitting stuff with a stick" at the end of every sentance to remind me it was the Ardent.
I'd like more psionic options that use int. When the psion preview came out, wizards says Int was the obvious primary stat for the psion because it embodied the power of the mind. Since then they seem to have retracted that. I'm not sure why the harrier battlemind uses dex, well, actually it doesn't for any of its powers, but its PP does.
Soulknives would be great for the battlemind.
I mostly love how the 4e Elan have been done, except one thing - for a "race" that is supposed to be good for all the Psionic classes, their racial and feats keyed off the racial pigeon-hole them exclusively into Psion territory, because it's Int only, and Psion is the only Psionic class that uses Int at all. The supposedly awesome Psionic race is vastly better as Arcanists than at Psionics!
Aw, I was so excited about how they'd made the Elan, that I didn't catch that. Yeah, I agree, that's... awkward.
I think I'm most impressed that the Battlemind has so quickly gone from a class I wanted to like, to one of my favorite classes. The fixed to blurred step certainly helped. The Wild and Harrier builds are so awesome, though, that I feel like I can just ignore any issues I have with the class, and just say "this thing is awesome."
I love the Firestarter, but I'd love more heroic tier support for X-kinesis types too.
I mostly love how the 4e Elan have been done, except one thing - for a "race" that is supposed to be good for all the Psionic classes, their racial and feats keyed off the racial pigeon-hole them exclusively into Psion territory, because it's Int only, and Psion is the only Psionic class that uses Int at all. The supposedly awesome Psionic race is vastly better as Arcanists than at Psionics!
This was my immediate mental complaint. I thought it might be better to houserule Int as Wis – there's at least 1 build for each Psionic class that uses Wisdom as a secondary. Or perhaps doing it Int, Wis, or Cha, but that favours Psions and Ardents more than Monks and Battleminds, relegated the second two to be somewhat weaker, using their secondary ability score, and pigeonholing them as specific builds (more of a problem for Monks than Battleminds, who just wouldn't be able to take advantage of it as a Harrier).I'm pretty much in agreement with all of your comments, especially about wanting soulknife as a background and wanting an implement using psionic leader. Frankly, I still feel the ardent should have been implement based to begin with.... but whatever.
Adding the implement using psionic leader will be difficult, though not Impossible. I agree that fitting it into ardent would probably be better then trying to create a whole new class, but adding a ranged, implement build to the ardent would require several things, including a way to get the implement proficiencies, multiple powers accross every level, probably a whole new build, and you'd have to try to set it up to allow crossover with the old stuff, so it doesn't just turn into a whole separate class anyway. New build and powers should probably have a strong telepathy theme. I mean, telepathy is just such an obvious theme for a psionic leader....
Telepaths would step on Psions' toes, methinks. Empaths would GREATLY step on Ardents' toes, and anyone who thought otherwise before Psionic Power should take a look at the book, because it basically defines Ardents as Empaths. Interestingly, the book really doesn't say much at all on why you use a melee weapon rather than an implement… this allows for future implement or at least a ranged weapon in the future without retconning that extensive information.
Finally, I REALLY don't think Battleminds should EVER have implements. Battleminds are very thematically tied to melee combat. They run on adrenaline rushes; you don't get that sort of thing if you're in the back blasting, even as a defender.
I disagree. Monks have implements, but do they sit in the back blasting? No! An implement-using Battlemind would call to mind the more offensive uses of psychometabolism... changing your very fingers into lances capable of piercing the thickest hide, fusing an enemy's arms to his sides so that he has to rip himself open in order to attack, even something so simple as the Finger Flick of Death!
...Yeah, I'm kinda hung up about this. Want my tiger claw Battlemind, dammit.
I disagree. Monks have implements, but do they sit in the back blasting? No! An implement-using Battlemind would call to mind the more offensive uses of psychometabolism... changing your very fingers into lances capable of piercing the thickest hide, fusing an enemy's arms to his sides so that he has to rip himself open in order to attack, even something so simple as the Finger Flick of Death!
...Yeah, I'm kinda hung up about this. Want my tiger claw Battlemind, dammit.
Me too. I was REALLY hoping that would be one of the battlemind builds in the Psionic Power book.
I disagree. Monks have implements, but do they sit in the back blasting? No! An implement-using Battlemind would call to mind the more offensive uses of psychometabolism... changing your very fingers into lances capable of piercing the thickest hide, fusing an enemy's arms to his sides so that he has to rip himself open in order to attack, even something so simple as the Finger Flick of Death!
...Yeah, I'm kinda hung up about this. Want my tiger claw Battlemind, dammit.
Me too. I was REALLY hoping that would be one of the battlemind builds in the Psionic Power book.
I mostly love how the 4e Elan have been done, except one thing - for a "race" that is supposed to be good for all the Psionic classes, their racial and feats keyed off the racial pigeon-hole them exclusively into Psion territory, because it's Int only, and Psion is the only Psionic class that uses Int at all. The supposedly awesome Psionic race is vastly better as Arcanists than at Psionics!
Aw, I was so excited about how they'd made the Elan, that I didn't catch that. Yeah, I agree, that's... awkward.
I think I'm most impressed that the Battlemind has so quickly gone from a class I wanted to like, to one of my favorite classes. The fixed to blurred step certainly helped. The Wild and Harrier builds are so awesome, though, that I feel like I can just ignore any issues I have with the class, and just say "this thing is awesome."
I have to agree, I'm still not a fan of some of the writing done for the class, nor their stat placement, but beyond those, its only class that actually makes me want to play a defensive-focused defender. Most my defenders usually end up strikery.
I think its the reliability of some of its counter-like moves that make it really appealing.
I read the ardent fluf in Psionic Power, and I was forcing myself to add "by hitting stuff with a stick" at the end of every sentance to remind me it was the Ardent.
Haha, I have to do the same. Their fluff is kind of all over the place - in some places it is extremely straightforward that they use weapons, and the psionics are incidental to that. But in other places (like... almost every power description), it's "They do crazy psychic things!", and the mechanics are the only thing supporting the idea that they're restricted to weapons.
I'm not sure why both the Battlemind and Ardent don't use Ki-foci it'd be perfect for them conceptually. Right now the battlemind likes making jokes about how inferior weapons and armor are to his mind, but he is entirely dependant on a weapon for its enhancement bonus and dice size.
See, I don't think I'd mind still using the weapon for damage dice size. There's little reason to change that now (even though, in many cases, it doesn't make sense).
But the Ki Focus works so well for Psionics, on a cenceptual level, that it's hard to understand why all psionic classes didn't use the darn things (or, hell, even two different things - say, Ki Focii for melee psionicists [Ardent {Build A and B}, Battlemind, and Monk], and Cognizance Crystals* for "magic" psionicists [Ardent {Build C}, Psion]). I would have loved to see that being an additional unifying aspect of Psionics - a "meditate and focus" implement, and then you're good to go (ie - you don't have to hold the damn thing all day).
*That is my preferred name for it, I think, though it's already used as a name for a consumable item in PH3. In a more perfect world, it would have been an implement instead.
It could have helped to set Ardents and Battleminds further apart from other melee weapon users, and to unify them better conceptually with the Monk - "Melee psionicists can pick up and use any weapon - they draw their powers from meditation and focus, and not from holding a more powerful stick."
At this point, I think my preferred fix is to just make a feat:
Strength from Within
Prerequisite: Any psionic class
Benefit: You can use the ki focus implement. When you wear or hold your ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of weapon attacks you make using a weapon with which you have proficiency.
I stole the wording from the Assassin and Monk, so I'm not sure if it works perfectly - but you get the idea.
I definately agree with Soulknife-as-theme. I could see it granting proficiency in Ki Focus implements, and then granting you an At-Will theme power that's bascially "minor action - conjure a mindblade".
Then come help homebrew it! If WotC hasn't had time to put it together yet, there's no reason we should suffer for it. (Yes, a shameless cross-forum self-promotion. Seriously though, other folks can feel free to put their ideas in there too, if they're not satisfied judging mine.
)I like the flavor text of the ardent in PP. PP cemented in my mind that the ardent is WotC's empath, and the class is just a hair's breadth away from the society mind as well. I'm becoming accustomed to the "hit-with-a-stick" style of its powers, but I'd still like to see a set of lazy powers added to the class. I can't see it as an implement user unless it picks up powers that cause empathic damage at range, as with hostile empathic transfer from the XPH; if it picks a telekinetic or telepathic focus for damage at range, it steps on the psion's toes.
The TK psion really needs a good 1st level push power (besides the discipline focus); the best at-wills for a TK aren't necessarily TK powers at 1st level. The problem goes away in a few levels, though, as another in this thread noted.
I like that the elan is a bloodline, so that it's available at any race and at any time in character's career. The elan's powers should be based on primary ability score instead of Int, though. Now that I think of it, I'd like to see the elan conversion ritual actually written up in this edition.
If I can pick up telepathy (and more) with a single feat, TPs should have at-will telepathy, and TKs should have at-will telekinesis.
- A non-"hit-you-with-a-stick" psionic leader. Conceptually, I don't know if there's any room for another full class - I would suspect that it would trample over the Psion and/or the Ardent. For that, and other, reasons, I would really prefer the Ardent be given implement-based, non-"hit-you-with-a-stick" options - options that would move it more toward the Bard's design space (as a use-a-weapon-or-don't style leader).
- More "precognitive" themed builds / powers / paths / destinies. I think the concept is represented slightly already, but I could see it being implemented in one of the classes (Battlemind is the one that resonates most with me), or as a Theme.
I would LOVE to see a combination of these two. The Seer could be a ranged, implement-using, psionic leader themed around precognition and extra-sensory perception. It would likely serve as a secondary controller and would aid allies and hinder enemies by glimpsing into the future and telling allies what to do to succeed. No stepping on the Ardent's toes at all. I'm even thinking about working on this class as a home-brew if I don't see any evidence of it soon enough. My current concept is actually to make all of the at-will powers lazy and only require attack rolls for the daily powers.
Here's an example power, if you like. It was one of my first ideas, but I'm now getting the feeling that it's a bit underpowered:
"You use your visions to foil your enemy's offensive tactics. By telling your ally to dodge just so, you see that the foe would be thrown off balance."
At-Will - Augmentable, Psionic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Effect: The target takes a -2 penalty to melee attack rolls until the end of your next turn. The first time before the end of your next turn that the target misses with a melee attack, it grants combat advantage until the end of its next turn.
Augment 1
Area burst 1 within 10 squares
Target: Each enemy in burst
Augment 2
Effect: The target takes a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls until the end of your next turn. The first time before the end of your next turn that the target misses with a melee attack, it falls prone and cannot stand up until the beginning of its next turn.
I'm also thinking of only actually having at-will powers of levels 1, 3, and 7, each with Augment 1, 2, 4, and 6 options, with the higher augment options only becomming available at later levels. I'm still working out how to too this just right though.
Their dailies are fairly close to the wizard ones, except augmentable. They generally have higher damage and/or nice effects, to actually make them worth while, which is often a complaint about them. Its also nice, because psions tend to have lower HP than the other 3 summoners, who all have con as a secondary.
What I really love, is the build features and the at-will powers. They aren't raw control like Mindthrust and Dishearten, but most seem to be good control powers, and the best part is they are unique. Most end up like a bomb of sorts you stick out of the field that explodes at the start of your next turn, many of the higher level ones even drawing enemies in before doing so. No, you don't have encounter summons like some people like, but you effectively have things you conjure into existance at-will, which is very nice, even if they only last till your next turn (when you can just use it again).
I was concerned when I saw the preview that was a scorpion made out of black ectoplasm, figurring it'd all just be like the other summons, but made of psychic goo, but it turns out most of the creatures you make are actually figments of your imagination an the enemies nightmares. The level 29 summon is also very nice if you have people in the party with strong at-will powers.
And yeah, that Deva Shaper is a complete and total bad-ass. Though I would have prefered it being a Kalashtar instead (the horrible nightmare pet is is only some tentacles, extra eyes, and extra arms away from being a Quori spirit anyways).
No, my issue with the shaping is that, while it does work, they could have easily made the mechanics jive better with the fluff - given it more of a "make whatever I can think of" feel by giving more options than other summoners get. I think they nailed the concept within the Master Summoner paragon path (hate the name, for what it's worth) - the level 16 Evolved Form feature, which gives you 5 different choices for customizing each summon as you create it (though I don't like the names there either - they're taken from the Complete Psionics cookie-cutter summon things, if I'm not mistaken).
Though it's not a lost cause - I think there's an easy way to implement that kind of "customization", without having to go through a modify all of the existing powers, or introduce a slew of newer, better, powers (as they did with the Summoner Wizard to make the concept a bit more potent).
If we combine normal, run-of-the-mill summon-boosting feats, with the newly introduced Augment Feats, new options could be created that gave a less-potent-than-usual passive bonus (always on), and then an augment option usable with any daily summon power.
Feat Name [Augment]
Requirement: Psion, Psionic Augmentation class feature
Benefit: [Minor passive benefit to summon powers.]
Also [an option to spend 1 power point when you use a psionic power to summon a creature, to gain X additional benefit or option].
I think it would work really well. Hm. Maybe I should write it up, and see if WotC wants it.
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Looking at feats for a moment, Haunting Sounds [Augment] catches my eye. It's a Gnome feat that has two benefits. The second one is an actual "augment" option for when they use their ghost sound racial power, but the first benefit really catches my eye. It allows them to use ghost sound as an at-will power, so long as they have at least 1 power point. Anyone who dislikes that the discipline powers give not-really-for-combat options only on a per-encounter basis can probably see where I'm going with this...
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Greater Telekinetic Focus [Augment]
Prerequisite: Psion, Psionic Augmentation class feature, Telekinesis Focus class feature
Benefit: While you have at least 1 power point, you can use your far hand as an at-will power.
When you use your forceful push, you can spend 1 power point to target an additional creature with the power.
Greater Telepathic Focus [Augment]
Prerequisite: Psion, Psionic Augmentation class feature, Telepathy Focus class feature
Benefit: While you have at least 1 power point, you can use your send thoughts as an at-will power.
When you use your distract, you can spend 1 power point to give each target a -2 penalty on attack rolls until the start of its next turn.
Greater Shaping Focus [Augment]
Prerequisite: Psion, Psionic Augmentation class feature, Shaper Focus class feature
Benefit: While you have at least 1 power point, you can use your minor creation as an at-will power. You can only have one object conjured at a time. If you conjure a second object, the first is dismissed.
When you use your shaped conciousness, you can spend 1 power point to have your fragment mark an enemy adjacent to it until the end of your next turn.
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Or something like that. Though looking through PH3 and PP, I don't think it would be balanced to give send thoughts as an at-will option anymore (I'm not sure about far hand - I don't think any feats give it a major boost) - there are just too many feats that turn it into something useful (PH3 lets you transfer a power point; PP has a few feats that do things like let you ignore line of sight to the target, or grant an immediate save, or other "I don't think this would be balanced as an at-will option" options).
Though I guess there wouldn't be any harm in:
Greater Telepathic Focus (v.2) [Augment]
Prerequisite: Psion, Psionic Augmentation class feature, Telepathy Focus class feature
Benefit: While you have at least 1 power point, you have telepathy 5.
When you use your distract, you can spend 1 power point to give each target a -2 penalty on attack rolls until the start of its next turn.
Anyone else noticed Psionic Power had less use of Secondary Ability scores? Except for things like damage or dailies? I mean, the supposed Con/Dex BM doesnt have a single dex feature except for their PP, the psion seems low on them too. I think the Monk still uses alot of them (but its not a PP user), and I honestly don't care much about the ardent to look through them.
Perhaps wizards caught on to the power point scaling issue and attempted to resolve it. That said, I'm still not a huge fan of the Psion's epic at-wills. They look more worthy than the PHB1's though.
That is straight from the new battlemind build. That said, it actually doesn't say its required for any of its powers.
I don't really mind that it is a melee class, but I agree, there could be a ranged build that would be nice. Or I think even just some ranged options for existing builds. Powers that take your weapon die enhancement and all that but the power has range mantle. And I actually think all ranged ardent powers should be range mantle.
Battleminds. I really really liked battleminds' powers and abilities, I just don't quite like their fluff. Or something, something just doesn't sit right with them for me. I've read the fluff, and I think it just doesn't feel psionic-y enough. Doesn't seem to draw from the power of the mind I guess. Maybe if they put more emphasis on the ego. The reason they can do these things is because they will themselves to do it. E.G. No one could move that rock, it is too big and impossible! Oh really? I can move it, nothing can stop me.
Monks, monks I've always been fine with, though I'd like more of a dedicated style system or at least more emphasis on the style. Because now I can pick like 3 or 4 styles and they are a slight bonus, but ultimately insignificant, it gets lost in the myriad of other feats I think. I'd be more interested in seeing styles sort of like the martial system, but that might step on toes....
Psions. They are cool, they are the epitome of psionics when I think about it, and I like the concepts they've done so far. I do echo the want for more emphasis on their focuses. It would be nice.
Also, I just want to say, I HATE the name far hand, that sounds so arcane. It makes me think of mage hand.
All in all, I'm really glad PP came out, it helped establish my favorite powersource as a respectable and justified concept! Now I need to get Dark Sun and see what more it can do for me!
The build recommendation listed DEX and the second highest recommended score, and that's why people just assumed that the new build would actually be using DEX, but since when have build recommendations every actually meant anything? Having the build recommendation recommend it as your second highest score does not make it a secondary score.
Actually, it does. For every single build but htis one, the recommended secondary is the one that provides riders to the associated powers. This is the lone exception, and that's because none of the assoicated powers have riders. But the official secondary for the build is Dex, which is further emphasized by the build specific PP using Dex.
I REALLY liked the flavor for the Ardent, it has actually made me really really want to play it know. At first, Ardents seemed..... off..... but now, now I'm thoroughly impressed!
I don't really mind that it is a melee class, but I agree, there could be a ranged build that would be nice. Or I think even just some ranged options for existing builds. Powers that take your weapon die enhancement and all that but the power has range mantle. And I actually think all ranged ardent powers should be range mantle.
I've pretty much loved the ardent since the PHB3 came out and I think I'm one of the few people who think that there should never be a ranged or implement using ardent, especially after Psionic Power's release. To me, fighting at range seems too emotionally remote or detached for the ardent as presented in PP (weapliments and ki foci seem are more or less weapons by a different name to me); the ardent, should be up close and personal, mixing it up next to their allies and enemies. I wouldn't mind a few more "lazy" powers, but they should all be close bursts, blasts, or caused by a zone, etc.
What I think may be needed is a more leadery psion-build.
Admittedly, he's also in love with his recently acquired Blade of the Eldritch Knight Fullblade, but even before then, he loved getting stuck in with the rest of the group.
Seriously, just drop chain proficiency, add an implement (preferably orbs and/or ki focuses), and make it int secondary. Problem solved. All that would be left would be to release implement powers, and if you're really terrified of catching V-Class AIDS you can just release a few feats that convert the current powers into ranged implement powers. The concept has already been proven, so I really don't see what they're waiting for.
For every single build but htis one, the recommended secondary is the one that provides riders to the associated powers. This is the lone exception, and that's because none of the assoicated powers have riders.
I totally agree.
But the official secondary for the build is Dex, which is further emphasized by the build specific PP using Dex.
It's not a build-specific PP. That PP's only prerequisite is "Battlemind". Not a single feature or power of the PP references Persistent Harrier or any of the other Psionic Study options.
But I'm not interested in making a debate of this. My definition of a secondary ability score just differs from yours. My point is simply that DEX is not any more relevant to a Persistent Harrier Battlemind than to any other Battlemind, and that is true.
For every single build but htis one, the recommended secondary is the one that provides riders to the associated powers. This is the lone exception, and that's because none of the assoicated powers have riders.
I totally agree.But the official secondary for the build is Dex, which is further emphasized by the build specific PP using Dex.
It's not a build-specific PP. That PP's only prerequisite is "Battlemind". Not a single feature or power of the PP references Persistent Harrier or any of the other Psionic Study options.
But I'm not interested in making a debate of this. My definition of a secondary ability score just differs from yours. My point is simply that DEX is not any more relevant to a Persistent Harrier Battlemind than to any other Battlemind, and that is true.
I have to ask, isn't the impetuous ardent also dex secondary? But doesn't it also not use dex for anything really?
I have to ask, isn't the impetuous ardent also dex secondary? But doesn't it also not use dex for anything really?
No, and no. The Mantle of Impulsiveness uses your CON modifier to determine its benefit.
Well, the PP that uses dex is highly similar to the theme of the harrier's bending space/fate deal. But i'll let that matter rest.
Dex or no Dex, its still a strange build, its either a Con/Dex build that doesnt use Con outside a PP thats kinda angled at it, or the only build in the game with no secondary. Both are very strange.
Things I still want from psionics:
Epic psionic At Wills that are worth casting and do the same damage as normal At Wills at epic level.
A true psionic striker
Another psionic caster class, it's role is unimportant, just give us something beside another beatstick with ego problems.
Feats that make force damage actually worth using.
Int based builds for the Ardent and Battlemind so that you can actually combine them with a hybrid psion.
Feats to allow a psion to use weapons as implements.
If we can't get another psionic caster, can we at least get a Elemental Empowerment style feat that turns the Psion into a quasi-striker?
I haven't played much Epic. Are the psionic at-wills really a problem at Epic?
I can't say there's a need for another psionic striker. I can re-create the psioinic rogue, lurk, and soulknife with the monk class. I'm also confortable with classes with different resource mechanics bundled into the same power source, such as the barbarian in primal or the warlock in arcane.
I have to ask, isn't the impetuous ardent also dex secondary? But doesn't it also not use dex for anything really?
No, and no. The Mantle of Impulsiveness uses your CON modifier to determine its benefit.
Charisma should be your highest ability score. Look to your Dexterity score next to let you act sooner in the round and to keep your Reflex high. Round out your defenses and hit points by making Constitution your third highest ability score.
I've looked at the class though, and there is no reason to use Dex at all. Were they just lying to us completely, was this a clever ruse? An out right sham? The whole thing a fabrication? Okay, I'm being over dramatic..... But just for clarity sake, there is little to no reason to pump dex?
Does the Wizard's Tome of Readiness have an associated secondary? I didn't think that it did...
Implement Mastery != build. Wizards come in War, Control, Summoning, and Illusionist. That said, the later 2 are directly supported by a speicifc implement. Its why they let you pick up another mastery at paragon.
Anyways, while psionic power's epic at-wills were marginally better than the PHB1's, they still aren't as compelling as holding on to paragon or heroic at-wills for more uses. Especially with Summons and Magic Items also being able to utilize power points.
I can't say there's a need for another psionic striker. I can re-create the psioinic rogue, lurk, and soulknife with the monk class.
What about the old Wilder? A ranged, implement-using Psionic Striker? You know, Wizard : Sorcerer :: Psion : ___. I don't know of a current way to reproduce that.
I've looked at the class though, and there is no reason to use Dex at all. Were they just lying to us completely, was this a clever ruse? An out right sham? The whole thing a fabrication? Okay, I'm being over dramatic..... But just for clarity sake, there is little to no reason to pump dex?
You got it. Like every other little build recommendation, it's pretty much useless and might actually contain quite a few outright bad ideas. Let's not forget that one of the Archer Ranger's suggested at-will powers is Careful Attack.
Implement Mastery != build. Wizards come in War, Control, Summoning, and Illusionist.
Seriously? Somebody actually uses those things? They're terrible. They're there for players that have no idea what they're doing, and it even pretty terrible for them. As far as I'm concerned, build options such as Implement Mastery, Rogue Tactics, Eldritch Pact, and Commanding Presence, those are builds. They're a lot more informative and descriptive than "War Wizard" or "Control Wizard", which tell you basically nothing about the character.
Which was fine at the time, but I thought for sure Psionic Power would have included that.
Such is the only specific complaint off the top of my head (beyond the obvious problems that are echoed again and again).
I can't say there's a need for another psionic striker. I can re-create the psioinic rogue, lurk, and soulknife with the monk class.
What about the old Wilder? A ranged, implement-using Psionic Striker? You know, Wizard : Sorcerer :: Psion : ___. I don't know of a current way to reproduce that.
Check out the Dark Sun Campaign Guide. It is in there...
Check out the Dark Sun Campaign Guide. It is in there...
No, that's not what I'm talking about. I don't care about the name. The name doesn't matter. I'm looking for the concept. What the Wilder theme does in Dark Sun does not begin to cover what I'm looking for.
For me, the answer to all of the above is a clear and resounding NO. I also do not think that a theme would be enough to cover the Sorcerer class or the Rogue class or the Wizard class or the Psionc class or the Druid class, so I likewise do not think that a theme is enough to cover the old Wilder character concept.
Don't get so hung up on the name. This has nothing to do with the name. Heck, I think that "Wilder" is a silly name for the class I'm looking for anyways, so this would mean that it gets a better name this edition if it's ever created.
Heh. Thats the main reason I dislike the Essentials railroad builds, like Knight and Slayer. Its not like the devs are actually good at picking your powers for you.
Even already with the Slayer, the devs try to force you to take high Dex for a heavy armor class. Seriously? Is this a prank?
Il stick to builds whose options I can customize myself thankyouverymuch!
But really, that's a devil's advocate question. I think I can propose the same answer you will: style. The same argument would have said we don't need a sorcerer. Just file the serial numbers off the wizard. From 3.5 the wild surge feature or overchannel feat captures what a wilder concept is still missing: an ability to become even more dangerous through reckless use of power. Like when they proposed how to update characters to 4e when all we had was PH1 - they proposed an Augment mechanic for psionics where you spent a healing surge to deal extra damage or increase burst/blast size. And that is a big enough power difference that you really need to design it into a class, not just tack it on with a feat, theme, or paragon path.
Question Crimson: would a psion with the Wilder theme fit the concept you're looking for?
Not really, no. The Wilder theme itself doesn't have much of anything to do with what I'm looking for. Just because it's named "Wilder" doesn't mean that it's actually relevent in any way to the discussion. It's not. It's as though I were looking to play a Priest and you pointed me towards that Elemental Priest theme. That's sort of vaguely relevant, I guess, but it doesn't really help me.
Admittedly it's not its own class, but it can fill the same conceputal role. So what more is missing?
I guess that's a difficult question to answer outright, but I could similarly ask why the Shaman is needed when we have the Elemental Priest theme or why the Warden is needed when we have the Primal Guardian theme or why the Psion is needed when we have the Noble Adept theme. Theme are nice, but they're just not there to replace class-worthy concepts.
The same argument would have said we don't need a sorcerer. Just file the serial numbers off the wizard.
I don't really buy that either. The Sorcerer is more to me than just a reflavored Wizard.
From 3.5 the wild surge feature or overchannel feat captures what a wilder concept is still missing: an ability to become even more dangerous through reckless use of power. Like when they proposed how to update characters to 4e when all we had was PH1 - they proposed an Augment mechanic for psionics where you spent a healing surge to deal extra damage or increase burst/blast size. And that is a big enough power difference that you really need to design it into a class, not just tack it on with a feat, theme, or paragon path.
That's closer to what I'd want, yeah.
The ardent isn't an implement class because the bard already covers the "psionic keyword implement using class". Also, i think it's fitting that the Ardent be up close and personal in order to feed off your emotions and manipulate them. Taking them further from the fight would lessen that connection IMO.
• mental effects
• telepathic effects
• empathy
• domination
• charm
• prescience
• memory magic
• lore
• innate magic
• telekinetic sonic thunder energy
Etcetera.
The prescient bard sort of stamps out all hope of a Seer.
I completely disagree. The Prescient Bard doesn't eliminate the possibility of the Seer any more than the Two-Blade Ranger eliminated the possibility of the Tempest Fighter or the Whirling Barbarian.
The same argument would have said we don't need a sorcerer. Just file the serial numbers off the wizard.
I don't really buy that either. The Sorcerer is more to me than just a reflavored Wizard.
Sorry, little miscommunication there Crimson - that came after I stopped playing Devil's advocate, so I'm also saying I don't buy that argument. I should've been more clear there, I guess.
On the one hand, I like the Fey-arcane correlation. Arcane magic flourishes in the Feywild, is cool.
On the other hand, many Fey, Enchanter, Illusionist, and Bard themes are identical with psionic themes, not just in breadth as generalists, but in depth as specialists. If arcane specializes in all of the psionic themes, then psionic risks redundancy. Im concerned about psionic.
I forget who said it - AlexandraErin or Duskweaver? - in their campaign, the arcane power source is the power of ones mind. In other words, they dont need psionic because their arcane already is psionic. It is an appealing solution for streamlining.
The main challenge is, 4e failed to mainstream psionic.
• The power point system was alien to the rest of D&D. (The outcome of Knight and Slayer remain unclear.)
• The power point system ended up using a non-spontaneous 'vancian' Daily spellcasting system, against the 3e purpose of power points.
• 4e continued the technobabble term 'psionic' (as opposed to other possible names like 'mental', 'ki', 'mindforce', 'soul', 'psyche', or so on), thus alienated the psionic tradition from the medievalesque flavor of the core campaign setting.
• 4e failed to streamline a thematic place for the psionic power source.
• Now the 'power of the mind' requires 'hitting things a stick' - is this evidence of a bankrupt design space?
• 4e failed to include psionic material soon enough, so arcane subsumed everything, broad and deep, in that vacuum.
• 4e disinvited psionic from the 'essential' D&D tradition.
The psionic tradition is in crisis. With respect to the longrun, where does psionic go from here?
I am expressing concerns because I dont see a good longterm plan for psionic.
I love psionic. By whatever way psionic adapts, I deeply hope the best that the psionic tradition has to offer stays a vital part of D&D.
The prescient bard sort of stamps out all hope of a Seer.
I completely disagree. The Prescient Bard doesn't eliminate the possibility of the Seer any more than the Two-Blade Ranger eliminated the possibility of the Tempest Fighter or the Whirling Barbarian.
Just look at evolution. If two species occupy the same niche, it is a mathematical law, one of the species will eventually go extinct. Arcane is the dominant species. If arcane does *everything* that psionic does, then psionic will lack its own desirable niche, and if so risks extinction. The non-survival of psionic in the essentials line is already a sign of an endangerment.
There is plenty of hope. The Psionic Power book just came out, and also the Dark Sun setting that supports it.
Psionic has the Monk, and this is an important niche that shores up the legitimacy of the psionic tradition. (But note, martial fans are trying to steal away a 'martial' Monk, so there needs to be thought to what makes the Monk distinctively psionic.) Also, Psionic Power appears to have added the 'Summoner' Wizard tradition to the Psionic niche. Havent looked at what the ramifications are.
We psionic fans need to know what we want as a community and then go about sensibly making that happen. What do fans want psionic to do and be? The more fans can accommodate eachothers desires, the stronger the psionic tradition will be.
Just look at evolution. If two species occupy the same niche, it is a mathematical law, one of the species will eventually go extinct.
That's not true. Various things can happen when two species existing together occupy the same niche. The extinction of one is only one possibility, and it only happens when one species completely outclasses the other. Niche differentiation is another very real possibility. In other words, all that would need to be done would be to make sure that the Prescient Bard and Seer are different enough that they don't totally step on each other's toes, which isn't difficult. The Prescient Bard uses CHA primary? The Seer should WIS primary or maybe INT. The Prescient Bard is based on ranged weapons? The Seer should be totally implement-based. The Prescient Bard uses traditional encounter powers? The Seer should use the Power Point system. Further differentiation could also be accomplished through the use of lazy power and other unique mechanical distinctions. The Seer already sounds a lot more different than the Two-Blade Ranger and Whirling Barbarian do...
EDIT: Though I guess that both species going extinct eventually is mathematically inevitable anyways, but I'm assuming that's not the context of your post.
As far as psionics go and hitting things with a stick. Well supposably psionics is "new" and therefore the easiest way for those to handle something "new" is to hit things with sticks.
The Wilder never had much to differentiate it from the Psion back in 3.5e beyond being the "Psionic Sorcerer", so a theme worked fine for it. All that's needed are some things that make the Psion more strikerish, and you pretty well have the Wilder the way it was. It's a lot harder to argue why it should be it's own class the way other classes that aren't covered should be.
The main challenge is, 4e failed to mainstream psionic.
• The power point system was alien to the rest of D&D. (The outcome of Knight and Slayer remain unclear.)
There are also people that WANT psionics to feel different, otherwise it's just a spellcaster by another name, and doesn't feel any different to play. The use of power points in 3e and 4e, at the very least, made Psionics mechanically unqiue, which is a good thing for some people.
• The power point system ended up using a non-spontaneous 'vancian' Daily spellcasting system, against the 3e purpose of power points.
The 3e purpose of power points has no meaning in the current edition. In 3e, they represented daily resources because, like spells, they were meant to represent how much "oomph" you had in a given day.
4e, however, has daily AND encounter resources. The "3e purpose of power points" couldn't possibly take into account encounter resources because there weren't any in that edition.
So 4e developers and designers could have tried to make the entire class power-point use only, but if they made both Encounter and Daily disciplines work off PP, then you would have to make PP refresh every extended rest instead of every short rest, which would make your "encounter powers" essentially just cheaper dailies, because the PP you spent to augment a power to encounter-level effectiveness wouldn't come back until the next day.
Or they could have made a separate pool of "Encounter PP" and "Daily PP", but this would have been needlessly obtuse and confusing.
Or they could have kept Encounter powers and made At-Wills augmentable into Dailies, but then, you aren't using your unique Psionic mechanic (augmenting with PP) as often as you are with the presented system, which has you augmenting every fight. Would you rather augment an at-will a handful of times a day, or augment it a handful of times every fight?
This was an elegant solution that works for 4e, and I don't see how the "3e purpose of power points" should factor into anything at all, since this isn't 3e.
• 4e continued the technobabble term 'psionic' (as opposed to other possible names like 'mental', 'ki', 'mindforce', 'soul', 'psyche', or so on), thus alienated the psionic tradition from the medievalesque flavor of the core campaign setting.
Psionics has always used "technobabble" terms, from the very begninning of its inclusion in DnD, editions ago. "temporal acceleration" "id insinuation", these are classic terms for psionics in DnD. I see no reason why this should change.
• 4e failed to streamline a thematic place for the psionic power source.
I thought "the world's natural response to incursions of the Far Realm" was a pretty nifty explanation for it in the core setting. As if reality was an organism and psionics is the immune system's response to aberrant infection.
• Now the 'power of the mind' requires 'hitting things a stick' - is this evidence of a bankrupt design space?
Now? Psychic Warriors existed in previous editions. They may have had a few ranged powers but they were mostly about augmenting themselves to increase their melee prowess.
Plus, there are "beat things with sticks" for all power sources. Look at the Swordmage, or Virtue of Valor bards. They fight in melee, using arcane magic, which traditionally doesn't lean toward that. Now, psionics does need more Implement-only classes, I'll grant. It is strange that THREE out of FOUR "power of the mind" classes attack in melee. But I don't think this necessarily points to "bankrupt design space", it just goes to show that there is room for the Power Source to grow.
• 4e failed to include psionic material soon enough, so arcane subsumed everything, broad and deep, in that vacuum.
Including psionics any earlier would have left it indistinguishable from other power sources, made it less unique. You seem to think that the uniqueness of the power point system is a bad thing, that it "alienates" the power source, but I disagree. It makes the power source interesting to me, both mechanically and flavor-wise.
Plus, psionics has always been something the fans have had to wait for in any edition.
• 4e disinvited psionic from the 'essential' D&D tradition.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean there's no psionic presence in the Essentials products? I'm not sure why that would matter. Plenty of things didn't make it into Essentials, because it's a product line tightly focused to new players. It's unreasonable to assume that every far corner of the game would be represented.
If you meant that 4e took back the literal "essential" (as in necessary to the game) status of Psionics, well then all I have to say is that psionics has never been "essential" to DnD. Psionics has never been part of the core "tradition" of 4e. It's always been unique, and an optional thing (except for Dark Sun, and even then, Dark Sun is as far from "traditional" DnD you can get).
The psionic tradition is in crisis. With respect to the longrun, where does psionic go from here?
Crisis? What crisis? How is psionics being treated any differently than it ever has been? It's never been a core part of the core setting before. If anything they took more of an effort to include it in 4e than ever before. The psionics classes weren't cordoned off into their own book, say "Heroes of the Mind: Psionic Classes", or "Players Guide to Psionics", they were included in the core product line in a Player's Handbook. That's more "respect" than Psionics has ever been given.
I am expressing concerns because I dont see a good longterm plan for psionic.
I love psionic. By whatever way psionic adapts, I deeply hope the best that the psionic tradition has to offer stays a vital part of D&D.
As a fan of psionics, I can understand your concern, but I think you're being a bit of an alarmist. I look at psionics in this edition and I look at it in last, and I can already see much more of an effort is being put forth to include psionics. They've been given a core place in the core setting, they're included in the core product line, and they've been respected enough to be allowed to retain some of their unique nature by being given Power Points and augmentable At-Wills instead of Encounter powers.
It looks all gravy to me, except for the overabundance of melee psionic classes, which I don't foresee being a permanent problem.
The Wilder never had much to differentiate it from the Psion back in 3.5e beyond being the "Psionic Sorcerer", so a theme worked fine for it.
If you think that the Wizard and Sorcerer also weren't that different from one another, then I'll even grant to you that the Psion and Wilder weren't that different from one another, but to me, the difference between the Psion and Wilder is analogous to the difference between the Wizard and Sorcerer, so if 4E has room for both the Wizard and Sorcerer, then I don't see why it shouldn't have enough foom for both the Psion and Wilder.
All that's needed are some things that make the Psion more strikerish, and you pretty well have the Wilder the way it was.
The Wilder shouldn't stay exactly the way that it was for the same reason that the Sorcerer shouldn't have stayed exactly the way that it was. The Wilder is more than just a Striker-ish Psion, and if it requires just a bit more differentiation to justify being its own class, then so be it. I think that would be great.
It's a lot harder to argue why it should be it's own class the way other classes that aren't covered should be.
That same argument applies to the Sorcerer, but again, we still had room for it.
The Wilder never had much to differentiate it from the Psion back in 3.5e beyond being the "Psionic Sorcerer", so a theme worked fine for it.
If you think that the Wizard and Sorcerer also weren't that different from one another, then I'll even grant to you that the Psion and Wilder weren't that different from one another, but to me, the difference between the Psion and Wilder is analogous to the difference between the Wizard and Sorcerer, so if 4E has room for both the Wizard and Sorcerer, then I don't see why it shouldn't have enough foom for both the Psion and Wilder.
Quoted for truth.
The Wilder never had much to differentiate it from the Psion back in 3.5e beyond being the "Psionic Sorcerer", so a theme worked fine for it.
If you think that the Wizard and Sorcerer also weren't that different from one another, then I'll even grant to you that the Psion and Wilder weren't that different from one another, but to me, the difference between the Psion and Wilder is analogous to the difference between the Wizard and Sorcerer, so if 4E has room for both the Wizard and Sorcerer, then I don't see why it shouldn't have enough foom for both the Psion and Wilder.
The Wizard and Sorcerer weren't much different from each other back in 3e. They really had to expand on the whole bloodline thing that only appeared in more detail at the end of 3.5e, and invent a bunch of differences to make them separate classes in 4e.
The Wizard and Sorcerer weren't much different from each other back in 3e. They really had to expand on the whole bloodline thing that only appeared in more detail at the end of 3.5e, and invent a bunch of differences to make them separate classes in 4e.
And I don't see the problem with similarly further differentiating a new Wilder-like class from the new Psion class. However, that doesn't mean that the concept as it currently exists doesn't deserve a class, just that it deserves to be better thought out than just the Wizard : Sorcerer :: Psion : Wilder concept that it was last edition. I don't see why a ranged implement psionic striker that uses the power point mechanic wouldn't be a viable enough base groundwork structure for the idea.
Avon: 'There are also people that WANT psionics to feel different. The use of power points in 3e and 4e, at the very least, made Psionics mechanically unqiue, which is a good thing for some people.'
Certainly there are players who want power points. The problem is, the ones who want them tend to be fans of psionic already, and these power points intimidate others from giving psionic a try. The need to master a separate superfluous resource management system tends to discourage players who are unfamiliar with (or even hostile to) the psionic tradition.
Despite psionic being around since the origins of the D&D, its irregular mechanics and non-medieval flavor have caused every edition to marginalize psionic to the fringe. Now again in 4e, the absence of psionic from Essentials demonstrates the failure to mainstream psionic.
In 3e, the power point system was a valuable niche because its spontaneity was superior to the vancian spellcasting system. This niche no longer exists because the 4e encounter system is better than the power point system: more spontaneous atwill, simpler, and more effective. Surprisingly the only advantage power points could have offered was lost when deciding to keep the non-spontaneous Daily powers. In 4e, power points arent a valuable niche and as-is arent even especially effective for spontaneity.
'Crisis? What crisis? How is psionics being treated any differently than it ever has been?'
Psionic is in a 'crisis' in the sense of a moment of change when the future is uncertain. Presently, psionic requires 'critical' thinking about its long term future.
One of the design goals of 4e was to integrate psionic into the core setting. As a 'normal' part of D&D, psionic was to be one of several power sources, each with its own niche. Unfortunately, that 4e goal has failed. Originally the devs said they were saving the design space of enchantment mental effects for the psionic power source. Tho psionic needs to be the goto source for both telekinesis and mental effects, it now owns neither niche. Moreover, the Essential plans for the (Eladrin-flavor) Enchanter Wizard with its mental-effect specialization appear to reverse the pro-psionic policy.
The designers are treating psionic differently from primal. Primal is 'essential', psionic is 'not'.
'If anything [the devs] took more of an effort to include it in 4e than ever before. The psionics classes weren't cordoned off into their own book, say "Heroes of the Mind: Psionic Classes", or "Players Guide to Psionics", they were included in the core product line in a Player's Handbook.'
4e did more than other editions to integrate psionic, but not enough. Psionic is still marginal. The thing is, the devs have discontinued the Players Handbook series. Now with Essentials standardizing the game, there is a concern any gain psionic made no longer exists 'moving forward'.
'As a fan of psionics, I can understand your concern, but I think you're being a bit of an alarmist.'
Alarmist? I dont warn about doom. I do warn about change. Hopefully a change that enjoys solid plans!
The issue is complex, and there are contradictory solutions that may work. Psionic could mug arcane and take its stuff. Arcane could mug psionic and take its stuff.
One solution is no longer possible, where psionic engulfs arcane. The Feywild is itself the plane of psionic dream, where Enchanters, Illusionists, and Bards use the psionic power source, where archfey flight is telekinesis and Fey-shining radiant energy is photokinesis. Unfortunately, such a deep streamlining would have needed to be part of the plans for 4e from the start. The Feywild has become too entangled with 'nature' flavor, even tho the Middle World primal flavor ended up commandeering that flavor. The devs gave the Feywild-psionic correlation an honest try. They said the early inspiration of the PH3 psionic classes used Feywild flavor, but it felt 'forced' because of all the other connotations. The Wilden still exhibits this Fey-psionic-wilderness correlation. Since then, devs have gone out of their way to say Fey is 'not psionic', even to the point, the Eladrin who personify Fey flavor are exclusively arcane (and even then only certain kinds of arcane) and are actually unfriendly to psionic.
An opposite solution is where arcane engulfs psionic. Per Essential, D&D 4e could hypothetically stop supporting the psionic power source. Meanwhile the soul of the psionic tradition reincarnates into the body of the arcane tradition. For example, the Essential arcane Bard could use explicitly psionic flavor: about the power of the mind, the control over reality by means of words and language, the empathic influence of music, the telekinetic energy of sounds, and so on.
Other solutions can be somewhere between the two extremes. For example, the devs could intentionally use arcane for medievalesque setting and use psionic for modernesque settings.
Or maybe, the psionic power source will stumble across a valuable niche after all, and the gaming community makes psionic the goto place for that niche (like 3e made psionic the goto place for spontaneous spellcasting).
At this point, the future of psionic seems unusually uncertain. It isnt a bad thing, but it is a 'keep your eyes open' thing.
If two species share the exact same niche, one necessarily goes extinct. Competing species can only survive if one or both of them can adapt to survive slightly beyond that niche. For example, two species could eat the same food in the same place but evolve to eat during different times of the day. IIRC, the bat has been around for over 60 million years. The reason the bat *didnt evolve* significantly is no other species could compete with its nocturnal niche, but also conversely any bat mutations died out that drifted into the niches of other species.
If psionic and arcane share the exact same niche, then psionic will go extinct. In 3e, psionic owned the spontaneous spellcasting niche. It is unclear what niche psionic owns in 4e.
If two species share the exact same niche, one necessarily goes extinct.
Even if I pretend that this is true, it still doesn't do anything to eliminate the Seer as a totally viable possibility existing right longside the Prescient Bard because the two wouldn't share the exact same niche any more than the Two-Blade Ranger and Tempest Fighter and Whirling Barbarian share the exact same niche. As I already mentioned, use of different ability scores, use of different implements or weapons, and use of a different power system are just the beginning of how the Seer and Prescient Bard would be differentiated, and this is already more of a differentiation than what we observe in the Two-Blade Ranger and Tempest Fighter and Whirling Barbarian.
If psionic and arcane share the exact same niche, then psionic will go extinct. In 3e, psionic owned the spontaneous spellcasting niche. It is unclear what niche psionic owns in 4e.
Arcane and Psionic are very different both conceptually and mechanically. I don't know what you could possibly view as unclear about the difference.
I dont disagree with you about the Seer class being possible (but it would be better if the Seer doesnt occupy the Leader role, at least not in the same way that the Prescient Bard does).
I call attention to the psionic tradition as a whole. In 4e, psionic must articulate a good reason to exist. LOL! Complicating the resource management system of the gaming mechanics isnt a good reason to exist. Arguably redundant mechanics is a problem to fix to make the game clearer and easier for more players.
3e needed an alternative to the vancian spellcasting system. 4e doesnt. What exactly are 4e power points good for? They decrease the numbers of powers, but drastically increase the learning curve. I guess the point is to have more atwill powers ... yet the Psion only gets one extra, so the sacrifices dont seem worth it. If power points are the niche that keeps psionic alive, then psionic fans need to explain clearly why power points are so valuable and so necessary.
If the only reason for psionic to exist is excellent fluff, then abandoning psionic mechanics and refluffing arcane mechanics becomes compelling.
Still though, the Ardent has some of the best fluff I've ever read. I can't think of any class whose fluff I like better actually. Just goodness that is a cool class.
Empath: Is there room for it? I don't think so. The Ardent has so much fluff and power description that is just "Empath!" - with the mechanics requiring that they hit with a stick first - that I feel the concept would be too similar. We already have a class that does most of what we want - it just doesn't do it the way we want.
Augmenting Striker: Is there room for it? Sure. You're not limited to only one striker per power source. But what would the concept be, if not Wilder? I'm sure you could fit something, but I fear it would end up being "Like this other class... but Psionic!", or even worse "Like this other Psionic Class... but a Striker!"
Precognitive... Whatever: Is there room for it? Sure. It's a concept that it's covered, but is a common psychic theme. How would you do it? I wouldn't, as a full class. Integrating it into an existing class, or adding it as a theme, or introducing it with psionic "rituals", or doing all of these - all of those make sense to me.
I forget who said it - AlexandraErin or Duskweaver? - in their campaign, the arcane power source is the power of ones mind. In other words, they dont need psionic because their arcane already is psionic. It is an appealing solution for streamlining.
It was me. But that's a consequence of how I flavoured the arcane power source in that setting. By default fluff, the arcane and psionic power sources are plenty distinct (IMO).
Anyway, after reading the Psionic Power book, I did finally decide to include the psionic power source in that setting as an alternative (and very rare) way of accessing the arcane. In fact, all 'power sources' are just different ways of accessing the same fundamental energy (that of the world's own gestalt consciousness) in that setting - arcane and psionic are just more obviously the same thing than the others. However, most people in the world don't realise this (and discovering this truth is one way of becoming a deity in this setting).
Just look closely: my avatar is left-handed.
It's certainly true that you could make a whole class devoted to seeing the future, as well as give clairvoyant powers to other classes, but I think restricting precognition to one "role" would betrying to shoehorn a very broad concept into a very narrow focus, just like the Ardent took the concept of "Empath" and funneled it into "Empath that hits things with sticks".
As for Soulknife and Wilder, and Lurk, etc. Why not just take all the one-trick pony classes and fold them into a second psionic striker? Like the Battlemind took the Psychic Warrior and Nomad and so on and folded it into one psionic Defender? All you need is a unifying theme, and the mechanics will mostly make themselves.
You foresee attacks on an ally, and tell them when to dodge. You keep an eye on them for a while, saving them many a blow.
Immediate Interrupt: Your ally is hit by an attack.
Effect: Your ally gains a +2 bonus to defenses against the triggering attack and can spend a healing surge.
Remember, hit points are a very flexible concept - hence the warlord allows martial healing. In the case of this seer power, what you're doing is protecting an ally, and the "healing" actually represents wounds that they don't take because of that.
Personally, I'd like to see seer as a psion build. Sure, keep giving precognitive stuff to all psionic classes. But a devoted precognitive build really needs to exist, and implement-user is the right niche for that.
Mar: 'That said, I'd like to invite Haldrik to read a certain side panel from Psionic Power, on page 96, called "The Fey Perspective." It should clarify. It's actually pretty muddled.'
Heh, the sidebar in Psionic Power is an admission by the designers that psionic is redundant and intrudes on the same design niche that arcane Fey 'enchantment' already occupies.
• Fey creatures themselves know that psionic is identical to Fey arcane ... and see psionicists as individuals who have stolen Fey magic without Fey permission.
• Mortal creatures too see psionic as identical to Fey arcane, as some scholars theorize: psionic was latently present among mortal creatures first, and Fey arcane itself is a planar echo of the mortal psionic source.
Either way psionic and Fey arcane mental effects are the same thing. From a design perspective, the two power sources appear redundant. Thus in the future designers may streamline them into a single power source. This consolidation may have already happened if designers no longer support psionic after Essentials and instead further develop fey arcane 'enchantment'.
As usual, you manage to both severely misunderstand the fluff and mechanics, and the intentions of the designers. Thankfully, there is absolutely no chance that Arcane and Psionics will ever be combined.
Celtic: 'As usual, you manage to both severely misunderstand the fluff and mechanics, and the intentions of the designers.'
Right back at ya.
The quotes I refer to say, Fey creatures and mortal scholars believe psionic and Fey arcane enchantment are the same thing.
Psionic Power 96:
• 'Psionic power overlaps with traditional Fey abilities such as charrns and illusions.'
• 'Creatures that dwell deep in the Feywild see the growth of psionic in the world as an attempt by the Nonfey races to steal their power.'
• 'Some Mortal scholars view the overlap from the other direction; Psionic energy is said to have existed in potential in the mortal realm since the beginning of time. Planar echoes of that potential were what granted the creatures of the Feywild their abilities. Since all elements of the natural world are exaggerated in the Feywild, the Fey were able to tap into this potential [psionic] power earlier and more innately than were the Mortal races.'
From an ingame perspective, Psionic and Fey arcane enchantment seem identical. From a game design perspective, they occupy the same niche, the specialization in mental-effects.
Celtic: 'That quote supports me actually. Seeing as how it doesn't say or imply anything like Fey arcane enchantments and Psionics are the same at all.'
The quote says the Fey see psionic as 'their power', the same power as Fey arcane enchantments. It also says, the mortal scholars opine, Fey gain their powers by tapping into the psionic power source in the mortal realm.
Celtic: 'That quote supports me actually. Seeing as how it doesn't say or imply anything like Fey arcane enchantments and Psionics are the same at all.'
The quote says the Fey see psionic as 'their power', the same power as Fey arcane enchantments. It also says, the mortal scholars opine, Fey gain their powers by tapping into the psionic power source in the mortal realm.
The degree to which psionic powers overlap with traditional Fey abilities such as charms and illusions is seen as simple happenstance
AKA coincidence, not them being the same.
Some mortal scholars
AKA people who don't have any authority or have any real basis in fact.
Some fey take severe umbrage at the notion that their innate abilities were somehow handed down from the mortal world. Such creatures have been known to attack scholars and psionic characters who espouse this belief too vocally.
AKA people who don't have any authority or have any real basis in fact.
Some fey take severe umbrage at the notion that their innate abilities were somehow handed down from the mortal world. Such creatures have been known to attack scholars and psionic characters who espouse this belief too vocally.
AKA it's a load of crap.
The sidebar comepltely disproves your opinion Haldrik - Psionic and Fey powers are not the same, and the developers are being very clear on that.
Except, Im saying what the sidebar says, and you *disagree* with the sidebar.
Celtic: 'The sidebar comepltely disproves your opinion Haldrik.'
Except, Im saying what the sidebar says, and you *disagree* with the sidebar.
... What? No ... you're disagreeing with the sidebar, since, you know, it disproves what you're saying.
And zakatk, I like your idea for the soulknife. I had actually put some effort into homebrewing a soulknife class, and I made one build really focus on always changing your weapons. My mechanic was striker damage whenever you augment (a higher boost if you augment 2 than 1), and an extra source of bonus damage, since the augment damage boost won't apply to dailies or at-wills. That'd be a sad striker at 1st level otherwise. For the build that really focused on weapons, you gained a damage boost whenever you shifted your weapon to a new form.
Interesting. A precog as a manipulator of past and future possibilities, like quantum effects on a macro scale.
I... guess you could look at it like that, sort of?
Just look closely: my avatar is left-handed.
I hate myself because for a brief moment I thought that you were serious...
It's certainly true that you could make a whole class devoted to seeing the future, as well as give clairvoyant powers to other classes, but I think restricting precognition to one "role" would betrying to shoehorn a very broad concept into a very narrow focus...
I'm not looking to restrict precognition to anything at all. I'd just like to be able to play a psionic character that can exclusively focus on it the same way that I can play a psionic character than can exclusively focus on telepathy or a psionic character that can exclusively focus on telekinesis, and I don't think that's an unreasonable desire. Could we add in a Psion built and powers that could accomplish this? We most certainly could, and I would likely be satisfied with such a build.
I'm just discussing the theoretical Seer (A) to show people that it's not as difficult as they seem to think that it is to construct a sufficient number of powers to create such a build and indeed the it's possible to do so because the concept is so flexible and (B) because of the desire for the Psionic power source to have more than one ranged implement class and because of the fact that precognition is such a flexible concept that it wouldn't be difficult to develop enough powers for an entire class. In other words, the Seer kills two birds with one stone, both making a primarily (or even exclusively) precognition-themed character possible and giving the Psionic power source a second ranged implement class so that it's not mostly filled with melee beatsticks.
As for Soulknife and Wilder, and Lurk, etc. Why not just take all the one-trick pony classes and fold them into a second psionic striker?
Because I hate the Soul-Knife and don't want it contaminating that class and a because the Lurk is just a multiclass or hybrid rogue.
Healing would be easiest this way, your body is restored to the period of before you were hurt.
You missed an attack? Are you sure? Because in this future, you actually hit him, or at least rerolled or what not.
The monster was here you say? I think you mean it was here.
Hell, you could even impose effects such as dazed or ongoing damage because the sensation of having your timeline messed with would mess with your mind. I think this way it could be almost any class. Except maybe striker.
I'm more disposed to the idea of a straight up time manipulator. Screw seeing the future when you can affect it and the past.
Healing would be easiest this way, your body is restored to the period of before you were hurt.
You missed an attack? Are you sure? Because in this future, you actually hit him, or at least rerolled or what not.
The monster was here you say? I think you mean it was here.
Hell, you could even impose effects such as dazed or ongoing damage because the sensation of having your timeline messed with would mess with your mind. I think this way it could be almost any class. Except maybe striker.
That's an interesting idea, but I don't really think that it has anything to do with the Seer one way or the other. That just sounds like straight up reality manipulation rather than anything dealing with precognition at all. That doesn't replace the need for the Seer, and the Seer doesn't replace the need for it (thought I'm using the term "need" loosely in this context). The two are just completely different ideas.
Actually, there seems to be no official 'objective' facts about the origins of psionic. Even the Players Handbook 3 (pages 4-5) which only presents one opinion, couches this opinion in subjectivity: 'An often-forgotten legend,' 'Sages in the worlds oldest monastaries claim,' 'Some speculate', 'Others believe', and so on. The only objective fact seems to be a correlation between Farrealm intrusion and mortal psionic activity, but the exact cause of this correlation remains speculation: 'Whatever the cause, the heightened presence of Farrealm energy has provoked a stronger response from the psionic forces of the world'. But exactly why is uncertain.
Meanwhile, the new Psionic Power book backs further away from any *objective* facts about the nature and origins of psionics. It refers to the PH3 and the belief that it describes. PsiP confirms only one fact, 'Psionic users first appeared among the mortal races in the latter years of the Dawn War'. But calls the rest of what the PH3 says, a 'legend' (108), and even says, psionic is only 'thought to be a response' to Farrealm corruption. Everything except the timing of the Farrealm energy and the psionic energy is conjecture. PsiP goes on to list many subjective beliefs about the nature and origins of psionic. All of them are valid, and any of them could be objectively true if the DM happens to like one of these best.
I'd just like to be able to play a psionic character that can exclusively focus on it the same way that I can play a psionic character than can exclusively focus on [..] telekinesis [...]
So you want to be able to "exclusively focus" at every level above 3 then?
(Because TK Psions still don't have a good third option for 1st level at-wills - they have a weak second option [because it's a melee power, on this ranged controller].)
So you want to be able to "exclusively focus" at every level above 3 then?
(Because TK Psions still don't have a good third option for 1st level at-wills - they have a weak second option [because it's a melee power, on this ranged controller].)
Huh? While I'll agree that I don't particularly like the two at-will powers that a telekinesis-focused Psion has at first level, at least it's still possible to build a first level Psion that is still exclusively focused on telekinesis. There doesn't technically need to be a third first level power because the Psion doesn't actually get a third at-will power anyways until third level.
I've found that the best powers for a 1st level kineticist aren't TK powers. I gather the best psion builds have a mix of powers, some shaping, some telepathy, some kinetics, that target each defense and provide the widest range of abilities. I think that's just fine, since I wouldn't build, say, a wizard that relied only on REF-targeting fire powers, either.
Unfortunately, it's not going to happen this edition.
What is this thing you say?
Quite simple, I respond.
The Sorcerer should be moved to Psionics.
Let Psionics become the definitive "My power is Innate" source! I mean, it almost is anyway, but the sorcerer's vague enough to be annoying.
It would fill the Wilder's shoes, grant legitimacy to the source ("Don't like Psionics? Fine! How about Sorcery?") and it's not like arcane actually needs a second striker, the warlock fills that role nicely.
When it comes to Power points, the point is flexibility. PP allow a psionicist to access his full repertoire as long as he can power them instead of wating for them to cool down.
The mistake was to make them analog instead of digital. If we'd simply got an encounter power that said "Free Action when using an at-will power: Use the power's augmented text. You can take this power multiple times" then there wouldn't be the slightest problem, and it would have meshed up nicely with the existing multicalss and hybridisation rules, not to mention sorting the balance issues. Silly designers.
A question about the soulknife. Doesn't Dark Sun have a wild Talent that allows you to create a summon an object like a weapon for the encounter? Because if so all we need is a way to get ki-focus proficiency and we're golden.
In the next edition, I'd like to see D&D arcane whittled down to a few key effects, so that it has an identity beyond the "book-leaning-do-anything" power source. That'd help keep arcane distinct from the other power sources.
I didn't see a soulknife build or theme in DSCS.
The "source" of a power source is largely flavor. I could describe a cleric's power as innate or a psion's power as planar (as the PsP suggested) and not change anything significant. I don't see anything psionic about the sorcerer as presented.
In the next edition, I'd like to see D&D arcane whittled down to a few key effects, so that it has an identity beyond the "book-leaning-do-anything" power source. That'd help keep arcane distinct from the other power sources.
I didn't see a soulknife build or theme in DSCS. I'd like to put some official mindblades on my monk, so that she looks like Protoss zealot, but I'll settle for a house rule.
Well, DS themes were to cover DS ideas. Mindblades weren't around till 3rd edition to my knowledge, and have nothing to do with the setting. That said, if there isn't a soulknife theme (or class, but i doubt that) by the end of this edition, with the number of people asking for one, WoTC really failed to see what people wanted.
That said, I agree, right now Arcane has an issue of stepping on everyone's toes. All powersources should have been checked out for viability, and generally defined from the get go, so that the ones that come out first don't step all over the ones that come later. If they had originally, perhaps Elemental would have more of a place, and Ki might not have died (not that I'm on the "keep ki" team).
A human does.
Ah, of course, Humans. They ruin everything.
But again, I certainly wouldn't object to more telekinesis support for Psions.
Let Psionics become the definitive "My power is Innate" source! I mean, it almost is anyway, but the sorcerer's vague enough to be annoying.
It would fill the Wilder's shoes, grant legitimacy to the source ("Don't like Psionics? Fine! How about Sorcery?") and it's not like arcane actually needs a second striker, the warlock fills that role nicely.
I totally disagree. Power Source has very little to do with how a character obtained their powers, only where their power comes from. Under this model, the Wilder, Sorcerer, and Invoker would be grouped with each other as having innate powers, the Wizard, Psion, and Monk would be grouped with each other as having learned and studied power, and the Cleric, Warlock, and Shaman would be grouped with each other as having bestowed power.
Arcane and Psionic are already distinct enough in flavor that any further differentiation would be totally unnecessary. Sure, some people don't like Psionics, but so what? Some people also don't like Divine, and some people also don't like Primal. Frankly, I think that your proposal not only doesn't solve any problems but indeed causes more.
Well, DS themes were to cover DS ideas. Mindblades weren't around till 3rd edition to my knowledge, and have nothing to do with the setting. That said, if there isn't a soulknife theme (or class, but i doubt that) by the end of this edition, with the number of people asking for one, WoTC really failed to see what people wanted.
Not to mention that soulknives have a cultural heritage with the Kalashtar in Eberron, which is currently missing from the game.
It would be like there being no attempt at a Bladesinger for FR elves. (We may have not known that the Bladesinger was going to be an official 1-30 option, but the Swordmage was definately a nod in that direction. Before the blurb about the Neverwinter book, a 4e "bladesinger" could easily have just been an eladrin/elf swordmage, and it would have fit the bill perfectly. There is no such option for the Soulknife)
That said, I agree, right now Arcane has an issue of stepping on everyone's toes. All powersources should have been checked out for viability, and generally defined from the get go, so that the ones that come out first don't step all over the ones that come later. If they had originally, perhaps Elemental would have more of a place, and Ki might not have died (not that I'm on the "keep ki" team).
Elemental has plenty of place. Elemental does not have to mean elemental damage or Air/Earth/Fire/Water. It can mean a lot of things.
That said, I agree, right now Arcane has an issue of stepping on everyone's toes. All powersources should have been checked out for viability, and generally defined from the get go, so that the ones that come out first don't step all over the ones that come later. If they had originally, perhaps Elemental would have more of a place, and Ki might not have died (not that I'm on the "keep ki" team).
Elemental has plenty of place. Elemental does not have to mean elemental damage or Air/Earth/Fire/Water. It can mean a lot of things.
And I for one am excited to see it, I really hope that they DO include it! It and Psionic are some of my favorite.
Ah, of course, Humans. They ruin everything.
Just like in real life
I totally disagree. Power Source has very little to do with how a character obtained their powers, only where their power comes from.
Except that doesn't actually mean anything.
If I create a class that simply draws upon arcane power then it could be anything, from a class that researches the secrets of the ancients to one who uses sensual massage to render thier enemies unconcious.
Under this model, the Wilder, Sorcerer, and Invoker would be grouped with each other as having innate powers, the Wizard, Psion, and Monk would be grouped with each other as having learned and studied power, and the Cleric, Warlock, and Shaman would be grouped with each other as having bestowed power.
Not really. Arcane is magic learned via study/knowledge, with no other prerequisites. The Magic of Mortals so to speak.
Divine is magic granted via deific connection, primal via treaty with the spirits, and so on.
I'll admit, I don't get the excitement for the Elemental power source, because I have no idea what the Elemental source is. Arcane has a catch-all element in it, but at least Shadow, Primal and Psionic all indicate fairly clearly what they are. Elemental seems too unspecific right now.
That's the attraction: the potential. We're curious.
With the PP's lack of Soulbladey goodness, I'm currently wondering if elemental might absorb it and incarnum to become the "form class features out of raw elemental material" source.
Just like in real life.
Yes, that was the joke. There was a smiley to indicate so, but I guess it didn't show up for some reason.
Except that doesn't actually mean anything.
Exactly. It's not supposed to. That's the awesome thing about Power Source. It gives you a hint of flavor, but it still lets you do whatever the heck you want with your character.
If I create a class that simply draws upon arcane power then it could be anything, from a class that researches the secrets of the ancients to one who uses sensual massage to render thier enemies unconcious.
Working as intended.
Not really. Arcane is magic learned via study/knowledge, with no other prerequisites. The Magic of Mortals so to speak.
Divine is magic granted via deific connection, primal via treaty with the spirits, and so on.
And so on? I feel like this is similar to that Futurama episode where Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8, said that he was going to eat all of the humans, starting with the math teachers, then the fire fighters, and so on in that fashion. So on in what fashion? Except that in that context it was funny because it wasn't supposed to make any sense.
With the PP's lack of Soulbladey goodness, I'm currently wondering if elemental might absorb it and incarnum to become the "form class features out of raw elemental material" source.
I think it's very likely the case that if the Soulknife doesn't become a new psionic class, it might end up as a class in the Elemental Power Source.
As for seers, currently it seems that Battleminds and Ardents have the most seer-like abilities. I guess they could emphasize this more with creating another Battlemind build called the battleseer who could have attacks like marking enemies as an immediate interrupt and some more preemptive stuff to differentiate from the Fast build.
The Ardent could get a Mantle of Determination/Prophecy? that has some zone and area effects triggered by ranged weapon attacks that give out bonuses, guided by the Ardent's feelings towards what is destined. Such as 2[W]+cha mod and all allies within 2 squares of the target add your wis mod to damage with their attacks, from an arrow. Even though there are always going to be those that compare this to the Presient Bard.
...It's not supposed to. That's the awesome thing about Power Source. It gives you a hint of flavor, but it still lets you do whatever the heck you want with your character.
Yes power sources give a hint of flavour, my point is that the type of energy used is completely flavourless. It's defining someting by the size batteries it uses instead of what it does.
And so on? I feel like this is similar to that Futurama episode where Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8, said that he was going to eat all of the humans, starting with the math teachers, then the fire fighters, and so on in that fashion. So on in what fashion?
Umm, by defining characteristics? I'm really not sure what to say here.
That said, I agree, right now Arcane has an issue of stepping on everyone's toes. All powersources should have been checked out for viability, and generally defined from the get go, so that the ones that come out first don't step all over the ones that come later. If they had originally, perhaps Elemental would have more of a place, and Ki might not have died (not that I'm on the "keep ki" team).
Elemental has plenty of place. Elemental does not have to mean elemental damage or Air/Earth/Fire/Water. It can mean a lot of things.
I know it doesn't have to be those. However, we have no sign of it coming out, and the "Elemental Priest" theme is Primal, not Elemental. Shadow has had paragon paths since fairly early in 4e, I don't see what the harm would have been for labeling Elemental Priest as Elemental.
I know it doesn't have to be those. However, we have no sign of it coming out, and the "Elemental Priest" theme is Primal, not Elemental. Shadow has had paragon paths since fairly early in 4e, I don't see what the harm would have been for labeling Elemental Priest as Elemental.
No sign of it coming out beyond Mike Mearls explicitly saying it is, because they found it to still be viable, you mean?
I think we do have something elemental. Straight out of the Dark Sun Campaign setting, although its labelled as primal, though it appears to have nothing to do with the primal spirits. The Wasteland Nomad. Its about air and dust. Sand and sandstorms. It is elemental. There is nothing to do with primal spirits, and I think that this is actually an example of elemental in diguise. The elemental forces appear to grow into the world and these people use these forces and incorporate into themselves, especially the Dune Strider PP.
To be fair, sandstorms fall into the same category as Druid weather magic. After all, weather is really the elements of air and water. Weather magic could easily fall into the elemental power source but the devs decided to make it primal in the sense of Amerindian rain dances, and similar shamanic weather activity. The vikings credited the 'Finnar' shamans with the catastrophic arctic storms.
All of this is fine. The question is, what thematic niche does the elemental power source own, if not primal Druid weather magic nor arcane Sorcerer elemental attacks? Is it all about alchemy and transmutation?
I know it doesn't have to be those. However, we have no sign of it coming out, and the "Elemental Priest" theme is Primal, not Elemental. Shadow has had paragon paths since fairly early in 4e, I don't see what the harm would have been for labeling Elemental Priest as Elemental.
No sign of it coming out beyond Mike Mearls explicitly saying it is, because they found it to still be viable, you mean?
Which they said a year ago, and D&D's been changing alot since then.
I think when they were first tossing around ideas, maybe someone thought it sounded like a good one, but if you really examine it, the term "elemental" better describes a type of effect.
Power sources describe the mechanism by which the effect is brought into the world, not the effect itself.
Martial -- the effect is brought into the world by the character's training and prowess with weapons.
Arcane -- the effect is brought into the world by the character's study or innate ability with magic.
Divine -- the effect is brought into the world by the character's relationship with the gods.
Primal -- the effect is brought into the world by the character's relationship with the spirits of nature.
Psionic -- the effect is brought into the world by the power of the character's mind.
Shadow -- actually doesn't make a lot of sense, which is why the shadow source never really got off the ground, and in truth the assassin is pretty vague and/or forced regarding power source, depending on how you look at it. It should probably be arcane.
Every explanation for the elemental power source that I've seen would really make more sense as a sub-genre of arcane, primal, or divine.
Relationship with entities from the Elemental Chaos? Arcane, much like a warlock's pact.
Oh, those entities are more like gods? Then it's divine.
Oh, you say your elemental powers are more nature-based? Primal.
Mind-based? Psionic.
I have yet to see an explanation for elemental that separates the effect from how the effect enters the world in a way that would unify more than one class under the "elemental" umbrella.
What I'm saying is, there is no need to create a whole new category when any class concept you can think up would already fit neatly into one of the categories we've already got. Unnecessary layers of complexity are not good for the game, not to mention that they seem forced and ultimately unsatisfying.
Theres also this ...
Middle World: Primal
Shadowfell: Shadow
Feywild: Arcane
Astral Sea: Divine
Elemental Chaos: Elemental
Body: Martial
Mind: Psionic
On that topic though: I'd like to see what they could do with it. I think someone could come up with something. Hell, it could go beat up Incarnum and steal all of its ideas, work them into an elemental theme, and I'd be satisfied.
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In other news, I continue work on a soulknife theme (linky, I guess?). As an offer for returning to psionic discussion, what psionic concepts do you think could afford themes?
While I think there's plenty of room to fold it into a class (Psion), I think a Seer or an Oracle theme could work well. Given the mention here and there in Psionic Power of precognition or prophecy as a sign of natural psionic talent, I think it would be a good power source to group such a theme under.
... But that's about all I've got.
I can see the Elemental source using the four classic elements (as in Guild Wars) or relying solely on conjurations (like Incarnum), bit I can't see it using real world elements. I don't want powers like Wall of Uranium or Boron Guardian.
I disagree; I think Shadow as a power source makes a lot of sense. I can think of fantasy archetypes that naturally fit into Shadow, such as the ninja, the blackguard, the necromancer, etc. I can shoehorn Shadow, or any other power source for that matter, into Arcane, given how nebulous Arcane is in 4e, but each time I do that the game loses diversity and flavor.
I can see the Elemental source using the four classic elements (as in Guild Wars) or relying solely on conjurations (like Incarnum), bit I can't see it using real world elements. I don't want powers like Wall of Uranium or Boron Guardian.
Not elements like the literal table. Elements like the building blocks of nature. Reshaping the world. Hell, Full Metal Alchemist even.
Necromancer: Power over death is of course Necromancy which is Arcane.
Blackguard: Dark Divine Power.
Hexblade: Melee Warlock which would be Arcane. Here is a great Martial Class for the Arcane Power Source.
I see the Shadow Power source as an Arcane Sub-Power. Please describe the power concept between a Darklock and the Assassin.
Xun, we've had this discussion before.
I'd give a more specific link, but for some reason I'm not getting links-to-posts to work in the forums today.
Post 149 or so is where that discussion started.I see the Shadow Power source as an Arcane Sub-Power. Please describe the power concept between a Darklock and the Assassin.
Necromancer: Power over death is of course Necromancy which is Arcane.
Blackguard: Dark Divine Power.
Hexblade: Melee Warlock which would be Arcane. Here is a great Martial Class for the Arcane Power Source.
How is the Dark pact even remotely related to the Shadow power source?! Sure, dark and shadow are thematically linked, but the Dark pact warlock "draws power from entities that lurk on the fringes of civilization." Introduced in Forgotten Realms, it reflects the magic of the drow: trafficking with demons. I fail to see how "I make deals with entities that seek to tear civilization to threads" is too similar to "whether through bargain or accident, I lost a piece of my soul to the Underworld, and the power of death (Grim Reaper style, not catastrophe style) follows me everywhere." Those ideas are not at all close.
As for the argument that champion of powerful primordials ought to be divine power? Just no. Powerful entity gives you power explains divine power, warlocks, and primal power. If primal and divine are different enough, then divine and elemental are different enough.
I see the Shadow Power source as an Arcane Sub-Power. Please describe the power concept between a Darklock and the Assassin.
Necromancer: Power over death is of course Necromancy which is Arcane.
Blackguard: Dark Divine Power.
Hexblade: Melee Warlock which would be Arcane. Here is a great Martial Class for the Arcane Power Source.
How is the Dark pact even remotely related to the Shadow power source?! Sure, dark and shadow are thematically linked, but the Dark pact warlock "draws power from entities that lurk on the fringes of civilization." Introduced in Forgotten Realms, it reflects the magic of the drow: trafficking with demons. I fail to see how "I make deals with entities that seek to tear civilization to threads" is too similar to "whether through bargain or accident, I lost a piece of my soul to the Underworld, and the power of death (Grim Reaper style, not catastrophe style) follows me everywhere." Those ideas are not at all close.
As for the argument that champion of powerful primordials ought to be divine power? Just no. Powerful entity gives you power explains divine power, warlocks, and primal power. If primal and divine are different enough, then divine and elemental are different enough.
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMkaaaayyyyyyyyyyy, if that helps you to sleep better at night.