• Githzerai: +2 Dexterity; +2 Intelligence or +2 Wisdom
• Minotaur: +2 Strength; +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom
• Shardmind: +2 Intelligence; +2 Wisdom or +2 Charisma
• Wilden: +2 Wisdom; +2 Constitution or +2 Dexterity
Battlesmith artificers; Aegis of Ensnarement and Aegis of Shielding swordmages; Infernal Pact, Star Pact, and Vestige Pact warlocks; and Staff of Defense and Tome of Binding wizards remain unfavored by Wizards of the Coast's race department, so it seems. I should add that shardminds are a race of living constructs from the Astral Sea, and despite being composed of rock-like material, do not receive +2 Constitution.
I wouldn't be surprised if they added similar options to exsisting classes, possibly turning one of them into a +int/con. Tieflings seem like a good canidate to get con, though it might be cha/con.
Note that all the races have +2 to one, and a choice of +2 to another.
I wouldn't be surprised if they added similar options to exsisting classes, possibly turning one of them into a +int/con. Theiflings seem like a good canidate to get con, though it might be cha/con.
I have my doubts that they'll issue an errata with consequences that sweeping. I'd be very surprised if they back up and do that for every PC race.
I have my doubts that they'll issue an errata with consequences that sweeping. I'd be very surprised if they back up and do that for every PC race.
It wouldn't really be an errata, because it's not like they would be replacing anything, they would just be giving you the option.
Like how the new Warlord build lets you switch out shield and armor prof for bow prof.
The perfect place for it would be in the "race" handbooks, though something to consider, many feats are balanced around races NOT having a certain bonus. So.. who knows.
Which is why I would hope it's only for races that have more potential than their stats dictate. Does Dwarf need +Str? no, Does Tiefling need +Con? yes.
Does Dwarf need +Str? no, Does Tiefling need +Con? yes.
Agreed. However, that still leaves room for a possible Int/Con race (Tiefling).
I wouldn't expect it as errata either, but it wouldn't surprise me if they offered similar choices to races with the Essentials line.
I would consider that sweeping of a change to be major errata, regardless of its source.
I would consider that sweeping of a change to be major errata, regardless of its source.
Well, if I recall correctly, there was a large chunk of errata that was supposed to hit in January that got delayed to March because the team behind the Char Builder couldn't implement the errata in time for the January update. Maybe that was changing the races around. *shrugs* (Note: I do not recall where I read this from, but I'm at least 95% certain I am remembering it right. Unfortunatly I can't point anyone to where to the source.)
-=Edit: Found the source(well sort of) and what couldn't be implemented in the Char Builder was a weapliments change. And I was right that there is supposed to be a substantial errata coming in March.=-
This update was fairly small because these were PH3 clarifications that weren't originally in the update pipeline. You can look forward to a much more comprehensive update in March (in addition to PH3 clarifications). Weapons as implements and implement as weapons, for example, couldn't be included in this update due to the programming time constraints for the CB.
Forgive me for ignorance, but why the obsession with a Int/Con race? What class does it combo with?
Warlocks, Swordmages, Artificers, Wizards, maybe one other. It is now the only stat combo not represented by a PC race (Githyanki are an NPC race), so a lot of people are irritated by its absence.
would consider that sweeping of a change to be major errata, regardless of its source.
Change ≠ Errata
If that was the case, then the Battlerager Fighter build would be an Errata...
wonder if these changes become standard among most races if it would be too overpowered to alter the human stats to +2 for either Str/Con/Dex and +2 for either Int/Wis/Cha.
Annoyed there isn't a Int/Con choice for the shardmind as well, but like the con or wis choice on the minotaur, if they change the wording on the racial abilities a bit, they will actually be fully viable for casters.
wonder if these changes become standard among most races if it would be too overpowered to alter the human stats to +2 for either Str/Con/Dex and +2 for either Int/Wis/Cha.
That woiuld actually weaken Humans' versatilty, in the process of making them stronger: They wouldn't ever want to be anything the only uses physical or only uses mental stats.
Add me to the queue of irritated, especially since it fit Shardmind so well.
Yeah, how it is they decided to give a walking pile of rock a bonus to Charisma instead of Con I will never understand. Sometimes I look at the racial stats and think I clearly must have a wildly different view of fluff then everyone else... At least they didn't give them a bonus to Dex.
Yeah, how it is they decided to give a walking pile of rock a bonus to Charisma instead of Con I will never understand. Sometimes I look at the racial stats and think I clearly must have a wildly different view of fluff then everyone else... At least they didn't give them a bonus to Dex.
Posted this in the other thread about the three new races of PHB 3 (Minotaurs aren't new, just reprinted).
Shardminds, Wilden, and Githzerai:
Man... The Shardmind fluff and feats better be awesome because the idea of a crystalline psychic construct race from outer space is just plain (Content Removed). It's about as interesting as plant people... oh wait... damn you PHB3... Seriously, did WotC run out of ideas? PHB 3 has Crystal Droids, Shrub-Ents, and overpowered Martian Ninjas.
I wonder if WotC had a bunch of races then went to a focus group for testing. Problem was Hasbro sent them the results from the Power Rangers focus group of 6 year olds. My head is going to explode when my nephew looks all confused at his new show full of magic and wonder while we got B Movie monsters as playable races.
At least Minotaurs will save this book.
Yeah, how it is they decided to give a walking pile of rock a bonus to Charisma instead of Con I will never understand. Sometimes I look at the racial stats and think I clearly must have a wildly different view of fluff then everyone else... At least they didn't give them a bonus to Dex.
Posted this in the other thread about the three new races of PHB 3 (Minotaurs aren't new, just reprinted).Shardminds, Wilden, and Githzerai:
Man... The Shardmind fluff and feats better be awesome because the idea of a crystalline psychic construct race from outer space is just plain (Content Removed). It's about as interesting as plant people... oh wait... damn you PHB3... Seriously, did WotC run out of ideas? PHB 3 has Crystal Droids, Shrub-Ents, and overpowered Martian Ninjas.
I wonder if WotC had a bunch of races then went to a focus group for testing. Problem was Hasbro sent them the results from the Power Rangers focus group of 6 year olds. My head is going to explode when my nephew looks all confused at his new show full of magic and wonder while we got B Movie monsters as playable races.
At least Minotaurs will save this book.
+1
Actually, just to be a complete contrarian, I hate Minotaurs too.
I do like strange races though. If Wilden have some good fluff and artwork that would make the race a lot better, since their actual stats are lackluster. The Shardmind are kind of weird. I like constructs but an all crystal race, without con and from the astral sea, just dosent seem as cool as a warforged.
But what races should they have included? Goblin and kobalds are both monsterous as whas suggested, but they have many roots atleast in 3.0/3.5. They wanted to stay away from the 1001 subtypes of races so thankfully no elf/dwarf/human/halfling races.
My beef with Gith, besides being an ugly race, is that their racial feats are far and away better than any other race's feats. It's just a race the screams "power creep".
As to Cha vs Con, well a lot of rocks actually aren't all that durable.
This also applies to the shift from earlier V classes to the A classes. Again, it seems to say "SUCK IT" to the earlier classes that now much look to additional power splat books to bring in good options while other classes see that the power splat books don't really bring compelling new options, unless it is from power creep.
Yeah, how it is they decided to give a walking pile of rock a bonus to Charisma instead of Con I will never understand. Sometimes I look at the racial stats and think I clearly must have a wildly different view of fluff then everyone else... At least they didn't give them a bonus to Dex.
Posted this in the other thread about the three new races of PHB 3 (Minotaurs aren't new, just reprinted).Shardminds, Wilden, and Githzerai:
Man... The Shardmind fluff and feats better be awesome because the idea of a crystalline psychic construct race from outer space is just plain (Content Removed). It's about as interesting as plant people... oh wait... damn you PHB3... Seriously, did WotC run out of ideas? PHB 3 has Crystal Droids, Shrub-Ents, and overpowered Martian Ninjas.
I wonder if WotC had a bunch of races then went to a focus group for testing. Problem was Hasbro sent them the results from the Power Rangers focus group of 6 year olds. My head is going to explode when my nephew looks all confused at his new show full of magic and wonder while we got B Movie monsters as playable races.
At least Minotaurs will save this book.
So, you're ticked because WotC doesn't stand for Warmed Over Tolkien Crap anymore, basically.
Whatever. Give me something new and interesting over the same old elf-dwarf-halfling crap any day of the week.
So, you're ticked because WotC doesn't stand for Warmed Over Tolkien Crap anymore, basically.
Whatever. Give me something new and interesting over the same old elf-dwarf-halfling crap any day of the week.
Agreed to unfathomable degrees. I'm sick and tired of the "humans but with pointy ears" races. We have more than enough of those, and anything new and original and interesting is better than getting the same crap all over again. Even if not everybody likes all of it, I'd prefer they risk coming up with new ideas to actually experiment with rather than stick the left over Tolkein in the microwave yet again.
EDIT:
And for the record, I think that the idea of a crystalline psychic construct race from outer space is absolutely awesome! It's not only a refreshing change from the "human, but with pointy ears" races that we usually get but also from the "everything from outer space or from another dimension has biology inexpliciably similar to that of humans" bull crap.
Same goes for plant people. I don't know why people don't like plant people. I think that that they're awesome. If anything, I wish Wilden were more plant-like than it's turning out that they are.
I'm curious what races you would prefer?
So, you're ticked because WotC doesn't stand for Warmed Over Tolkien Crap anymore, basically.
Whatever. Give me something new and interesting over the same old elf-dwarf-halfling crap any day of the week.
Agreed to unfathomable degrees. I'm sick and tired of the "humans but with pointy ears" races. We have more than enough of those, and anything new and original and interesting is better than getting the same crap all over again. Even if not everybody likes all of it, I'd prefer they risk coming up with new ideas to actually experiment with rather than stick the left over Tolkein in the microwave yet again.
To be fair, we haven't had any FrankenTolkien stuff since PHB1. I really just hope that the artwork for the Wilden is much closer to the Killoren than some of the stuff we have been seeing.
The next question is, where does WotC go from here? They have kinda played the Contruct harp to death now, we have a plant race, and the minotaur goes into the realm of bestial humanoids.
Thanks for indulging my hang-ups. [/rant]
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
So, you're ticked because WotC doesn't stand for Warmed Over Tolkien Crap anymore, basically.
Whatever. Give me something new and interesting over the same old elf-dwarf-halfling crap any day of the week.
Agreed to unfathomable degrees. I'm sick and tired of the "humans but with pointy ears" races. We have more than enough of those, and anything new and original and interesting is better than getting the same crap all over again. Even if not everybody likes all of it, I'd prefer they risk coming up with new ideas to actually experiment with rather than stick the left over Tolkein in the microwave yet again.
EDIT:
And for the record, I think that the idea of a crystalline psychic construct race from outer space is absolutely awesome! It's not only a refreshing change from the "human, but with pointy ears" races that we usually get but also from the "everything from outer space or from another dimension has biology inexpliciably similar to that of humans" bull crap.
Same goes for plant people. I don't know why people don't like plant people. I think that that they're awesome. If anything, I wish Wilden were more plant-like than it's turning out that they are.
Lighten up Frances. It's just an opinion.
As to what I'd rather see? I dunno, I wouldn't mind seeing Kobolds or Goblins as another small race. Seeing Githzerai without Githyanki seem lame to me. Some sort of flying/winged race would have been interesting if hard to balance. Kenku could have worked or something along those lines. Eventually I'd like to see Gnolls get the same treatment as Minotaurs, upgrading them from a 1 article D&DI race to fully supported race. With Dark Sun coming out soon, I could see perhaps a race from that setting such as Thri-Kreen. Why not Medusas? Yuan-ti or some sort of snake people? Lizardfolk? Centaur?
Since WotC seems keen on giving us races with multiple attribute choices they could have taken the opportunity to give those options to pre-existing races. This way they could fill out those "sub-types" without making them a brand new race.
I understand that PHB3 is all about psionics and the threat of the far realm (way to tread on the toes of the Primal power source by the way), but telepathic crystal robots and plant people don't really do it for me. I did say that I hope the fluff for the mental rock creatures is awesome because otherwise it just seems like a B movie monster. I mean Gith are literally green men from outer space!
I'm all for imaginative and new things, but Wilden and Shardminds don't really do it for me. They don't even offer new stat combinations so they're just retreads really. But thats okay, I got plenty of resources to use. Besides I really like Minotaurs, so PHB 3 has that going for it at least.
In the PHB3, you can create a Shardmind Battlemind!
The sheer stupidity of that sentence should have set off warning bells in some editor's skull.
Lighten up Frances. It's just an opinion.
I wasn't actually trying to be offensive to you, but I can see how that might have gotten misunderstood, so I apologize. I was just trying to say that I disagree with the standard approach to race that most people have come to expect and be comfortable with. In fact, my point was that I like that we're getting races that we can disagree upon, that we can argue over, and that aren't so safe that everybody will think that they're okay (and just thinks that they're okay). I like that they're taking the risk to come up with things that are radically different and new. We're not all going to agree on all of it, but that's okay, because they can't come up with anything really unique and different and cool if they just keep playing it safe with their design.
As for your specific alternate suggestions, I still think that Kobolds and Goblins and so on would be playing it safe. Githyanki and Githzerai are basically the same race just with different cultures, so I don't see why there's a mechanical distinction to begin with. A winged race would have been too difficult to balance. Thr-Kreen are coming out in the Dark Sun setting guide. Lizardfolk aren't different enough from Dragonborn, IMO, but I could sort of see that maybe. Centaur are almost impossible to get right as a PC race, as the ridiculously numerous threads on the Races and Homebrew boards have proven. Yuan-Ti could be okay depending on how they're done, but they could also be totally terrible, and the same goes for the Pseudo-Medusa.
I think Kenku would have been cool though! I do hope we get them at some point. Gnoll aren't terrible either, but they'd have to fix them from what happened with the Dragon version. Then again, it looks like they still screwed up the Minotaur, so maybe not...
Since WotC seems keen on giving us races with multiple attribute choices they could have taken the opportunity to give those options to pre-existing races. This way they could fill out those "sub-types" without making them a brand new race.
Rumor is that they will, but it won't be done in the PHB3, meaning that it'll take them longer than it should have taken them.
They don't even offer new stat combinations so they're just retreads really.
A race isn't just about it's ability score boosts.
Besides I really like Minotaurs, so PHB 3 has that going for it at least.
I really like them too, but from what it sounds like, they're still terriblly designed, not much better than their Dragon Mag versions.
You know what I'd like to see? Races with proper names.
In the PHB3, you can create a Shardmind Battlemind!
The sheer stupidity of that sentence should have set off warning bells in some editor's skull.
Meh, I don't see a problem with it. I think that these sorts of names are a lot better than a lot of what you see on the Races or Homebrew boards. Amaquen? Daikoku? Gwyllion? Lumiukko? Mishabjorn? Saraiel? Subursu? Yuatja? Honestly, I think that names derived from existing words are infinitely better than the utter gibberish that would be the alternative. Eladrin? Tiefling? Githzerai? Kalashtar? Genasi? Now those sounds ridiculous. The Shardmind and Wilden sounds totally sane compared to them. You're just more used to them is all.
You know what I'd like to see? Races with proper names.
In the PHB3, you can create a Shardmind Battlemind!
The sheer stupidity of that sentence should have set off warning bells in some editor's skull.
Meh, I don't see a problem with it. I think that these sorts of names are a lot better than a lot of what you see on the Races or Homebrew boards. Amaquen? Daikoku? Gwyllion? Lumiukko? Mishabjorn? Saraiel? Subursu? Yuatja? Honestly, I think that names derived from existing words are infinitely better than the utter gibberish that would be the alternative. Eladrin? Tiefling? Githzerai? Kalashtar? Genasi? Now those sounds ridiculous. The Shardmind and Wilden sounds totally sane compared to them. You're just more used to them is all.
It's just the image of a race calling itself Shardminds that bothers me.
Honestly, we call ourselves humans. We don't call ourselves Meatwalkers, Bigskulls, Thumbdudes, Toolguys, or Fleshbags.
Names are a good start both for invoking an image and for memory. We remember Genasi; we know what it means, and the word instantly recalls a history. If they were Elementfolk, methinks it would be less so, just as Eladrin is better than Shinypants or Kalashtar superior to Dreammade. Creating a good name is better than just sticking random words together because it creats a history, an origin to the race that you will remember.
It's just the image of a race calling itself Shardminds that bothers me.
Honestly, we call ourselves humans. We don't call ourselves Meatwalkers, Bigskulls, Thumbdudes, Toolguys, or Fleshbags.
Actually, there are perfectly reasonable reasons for this. First of all, the reason that we call ourselves Humans is because there's nobody around to call us anything else. It's like how we have our Moon and other planets have their own moons but with names because we discovered them later. Our Moon doesn't have a name because it's the base standard. However, we as individuals define ourselves based on how we believe that others perceive us, so it's only natural that in a world where different species live together, they would define themselves in comparison to how they believe that the others perceive them.
Or to bring actual "race" into the picture (despite the fact that it's just a social construct and has no basis in biology), think about how we call each other "black people" or "white people" (we're really pink and brown) or "northerners" or "southerners" (even if we're referring to people who all live in the northern hemisphere) or "western" or "middle eastern" (is there an east pole or west pole that makes this objective?). It's all relative, and often to arbitrary standards. Do you honestly think that Halflings would call themselves Halflings if there weren't taller folk around? Of course they wouldn't. In fact, it's likely that if Halflings existed they would take the term as offensive.
Also consider that we very often don't call people what they call themselves. For example, we call them German, but they call themselves Deutsch. We call them Chinese, but they call themselves Zhongguoren. Remember District 9? I doubt they really called themselves Prawns. It was just an easier name for us that we could actually pronounced and that defined them well enough for us. D&D is still centered from a human perspective, so it's only natural that the races are named based on how humans perceive them. Do you really think that "Dwarf" is the Dwarven word that they refer to themselves as?
It's very likely that Shardminds don't call themselves Shardminds. Heck, seeing as how they're telepathic and from a different dimension, it's totally possible that they've never bothered to call themselves anything at all, only ever even learning to speak when they discovered other sentient races and were exposed to this odd concept called "language", at least in its auditory form. In this case, whatever they "call themselves" might be a concept restricted to their writing. I suppose that in this case it's more than likely that they developed non-phonetic symbols for writing system, like Chinese. Maybe their symbol for what they call themselves might be comprised of other symbols for different things, again similar to how some of Chinese works, that we might be able to call out as what they "call themselves", but maybe not... I really hope that this turns out to be part of their flavor, because it's a really cool idea, if I do say so myself...
EDIT:
Creating a good name is better than just sticking random words together because it creats a history, an origin to the race that you will remember.
Do you have a problem remembering the history or origin of the Halflings? Dragonborn? Deva? Dwarf? Goliath? Shifter? Changeling? Warforged? Minotaur? No, you don't, and you could immediately identify with their names instead of having to wait and see if their names would get any traction with you. Sometimes a totally random word ends up gaining traction, like Tiefling or Genasi, but that's a total gamble, and a lot of the time, a race's weirdo name could easily bring it down.
We don't call ourselves Meatwalkers, Bigskulls, Thumbdudes, Toolguys, or Fleshbags.
Well I didn't before, but I'm going to now!
Meatwalker it is!
(Seriously, how much cooler does that sound than "Human"?
)
The next question is, where does WotC go from here? They have kinda played the Contruct harp to death now, we have a plant race, and the minotaur goes into the realm of bestial humanoids.
Two races is playing it to death?
With Dark Sun coming out soon, I could see perhaps a race from that setting such as Thri-Kreen.
We are getting them. In Dark Sun. Where did you think they'd appear?
but telepathic crystal robots
Golems are not robots.
The next question is, where does WotC go from here? They have kinda played the Contruct harp to death now, we have a plant race, and the minotaur goes into the realm of bestial humanoids.
Two races is playing it to death?With Dark Sun coming out soon, I could see perhaps a race from that setting such as Thri-Kreen.
We are getting them. In Dark Sun. Where did you think they'd appear?but telepathic crystal robots
Golems are not robots.
Yes, two races is playing it to death.
They aren't a standard humanoid race, they are meant to be more special in that regard. Pile a whole bunch on us, not so special anymore.
The next question is, where does WotC go from here? They have kinda played the Contruct harp to death now, we have a plant race, and the minotaur goes into the realm of bestial humanoids.
Two races is playing it to death?With Dark Sun coming out soon, I could see perhaps a race from that setting such as Thri-Kreen.
We are getting them. In Dark Sun. Where did you think they'd appear?but telepathic crystal robots
Golems are not robots.
Yes, two races is playing it to death.
Well, I could see one to three non-living construct races...
Since true golems are, afaik, non-living constructs.
Lets say a golem, and an automaton, with the significant difference being that golems are constructed entirely out of the same (type of) material, whilst automatons are composed of different materials. Main source of potencial for this coming from 3.0 Encyclopædia Arcana's volume on constructs (which mentions three different sorts: golems, automatons, and eidolons(N. An image or representation of an idea; a representation of an ideal form; an apparition of some actual or imaginary entity, or of some aspect of reality.) - a representation or image of an existing being).
Also, I could see more "bestial humanoids" such as raptorians, catfolk (both in need of better names? xD), etc.
mellored: Okay, I hate to be the spelling-nazi, but I keep getting hung up on this. The red-coloured, devil-looking race is called TIEFLING, not "thiefling". It's a hard "T" sound. Tuh-tuh-tuh... NOT thuh-thuh-thuh. It's NOT "thief -ling". It's pronounced as "tea -fling" (if you dig German), though some folks like to say it as "tie -fling".
Thanks for indulging my hang-ups. [/rant]
Fixed
Yes, two races is playing it to death. They aren't a standard humanoid race, they are meant to be more special in that regard. Pile a whole bunch on us, not so special anymore.
One's an artificial, sentient war machine, the other's a fragment of an elder god. Definately too much similarity there.
Stop assuming that a creature's type is all that defines it.
Yes, two races is playing it to death. They aren't a standard humanoid race, they are meant to be more special in that regard. Pile a whole bunch on us, not so special anymore.
There is so much wrong with that statement ...
Besides Warforged and Shardminds being nothing alike, that's two whole races out of 28. And you still think that's too many? I'm sorry, but that is flat out insane. And as for standard humanoid race, how are they not? They're as standard as Eladrin, Gnomes, Changelings, Dragonborn, Deva, and so on.
One's an artificial, sentient war machine, the other's a fragment of an elder god. Definately too much similarity there.
Stop assuming that a creature's type is all that defines it.
Wait was background fluff for the Shardminds mentioned in the spoilers thread? I haven't been bothering to keep up with the leaks, and if that is their official fluff then I love shardminds even more than I was expecting to.
You know what I'd like to see? Races with proper names.
In the PHB3, you can create a Shardmind Battlemind!
The sheer stupidity of that sentence should have set off warning bells in some editor's skull.
Meh, I don't see a problem with it. I think that these sorts of names are a lot better than a lot of what you see on the Races or Homebrew boards. Amaquen? Daikoku? Gwyllion? Lumiukko? Mishabjorn? Saraiel? Subursu? Yuatja? Honestly, I think that names derived from existing words are infinitely better than the utter gibberish that would be the alternative. Eladrin? Tiefling? Githzerai? Kalashtar? Genasi? Now those sounds ridiculous. The Shardmind and Wilden sounds totally sane compared to them. You're just more used to them is all.
The difference is with some of the released "fantasy word" races is that the word still means something:
Eladrin is evocative of Eldritch- a word meaning ancient and magic, which fits the race.
Tiefling is German for Demon Child.
Genesi- comes from Genesis, elemental creation.
Gith and Kalashtar I can't trace, but at least the name is structured to look like a tribe or species name (the correct word endings)- think if Shardmind was Shardkin, or in another language like Tiefling. The butting together of two words we understand as mundane concepts does not make the race sound evocative- it's the DERIVATION that's essential.
Wait was background fluff for the Shardminds mentioned in the spoilers thread? I haven't been bothering to keep up with the leaks, and if that is their official fluff then I love shardminds even more than I was expecting to.
Sentient fragments of the Living Gate which once stood at the pinnacle of the intricate lattice of the Astral Sea.
You know what I'd like to see? Races with proper names.
In the PHB3, you can create a Shardmind Battlemind!
The sheer stupidity of that sentence should have set off warning bells in some editor's skull.
Meh, I don't see a problem with it. I think that these sorts of names are a lot better than a lot of what you see on the Races or Homebrew boards. Amaquen? Daikoku? Gwyllion? Lumiukko? Mishabjorn? Saraiel? Subursu? Yuatja? Honestly, I think that names derived from existing words are infinitely better than the utter gibberish that would be the alternative. Eladrin? Tiefling? Githzerai? Kalashtar? Genasi? Now those sounds ridiculous. The Shardmind and Wilden sounds totally sane compared to them. You're just more used to them is all.
The difference is with some of the released "fantasy word" races is that the word still means something:
Eladrin is evocative of Eldritch- a word meaning ancient and magic, which fits the race.
Tiefling is German for Demon Child.
Genesi- comes from Genesis, elemental creation.
Gith and Kalashtar I can't trace, but at least the name is structured to look like a tribe or species name (the correct word endings)- think if Shardmind was Shardkin, or in another language like Tiefling. The butting together of two words we understand as mundane concepts does not make the race sound evocative- it's the DERIVATION that's essential.
Interesting, like a trivia note, I might give you. But 'essential'? Not even.
i.e. "the Krynosis"- from Crystal, Gnosis (knowledge) and a race from Xenosaga.
We are...men..of...the...CRYSTAL!
I do like the fluff on the shardmind, going to have to warm up to the name still though.
Wait was background fluff for the Shardminds mentioned in the spoilers thread? I haven't been bothering to keep up with the leaks, and if that is their official fluff then I love shardminds even more than I was expecting to.
Sentient fragments of the Living Gate which once stood at the pinnacle of the intricate lattice of the Astral Sea.
Yeah, their fluff does seem pretty awesome so far. Definitely looking to be my favorite of the four.
However, if I ever get around to playing one, I am sorely tempted to toss the fluff and make one based on this:
Gwyllion is a Welsh word, it's not made up. It's a type of female ghost that haunts mountain passes and screams at you.
Genesi- comes from Genesis, elemental creation.
No Genasi comes from the word Genie.
Genesi- comes from Genesis, elemental creation.
No Genasi comes from the word Genie.
If you hear the WotC guys pronouce it in one of the podcasts, it's starts just like Genesis- Jen Nah See
Genesi- comes from Genesis, elemental creation.
No Genasi comes from the word Genie.
If you hear the WotC guys pronouce it in one of the podcasts, it's starts just like Genesis- Jen Nah See
That means nothing. Because one of the creators of the Genasi back in 2e, outright said Genasi name was derived from Genie.
If you hear the WotC guys pronouce it in one of the podcasts, it's starts just like Genesis- Jen Nah See
Yeah ... Jen = Djinn = Genie ....
One's an artificial, sentient war machine, the other's a fragment of an elder god.
They fight crime.
For the record…
Gwyllion is a Welsh word, it's not made up. It's a type of female ghost that haunts mountain passes and screams at you.
That's nice for the .002% of the population that happens to know that, but for the rest of us, it's still pure gibberish, so my point stands. Same for this talk about the Eladrin being derived from Eldritch (I don't see it) or Tiefling being something German or Genasi being derived from... people still can't even agree on what (and if you don't know how to pronounce it, it's even less clear).
Just because gibberish turns out to mean something doesn't mean that it isn't still gibberish.
For the record…
Gwyllion is a Welsh word, it's not made up. It's a type of female ghost that haunts mountain passes and screams at you.
That's nice for the .002% of the population that happens to know that, but for the rest of us, it's still pure gibberish, so my point stands. Same for this talk about the Eladrin being derived from Eldritch (I don't see it) or Tiefling being something German or Genasi being derived from... people still can't even agree on what (and if you don't know how to pronounce it, it's even less clear).
Just because gibberish turns out to mean something doesn't mean that it isn't still gibberish.
Uh ... yeah. It does. That's like ... languagist or something. So what, if you had never ever in your life heard the riboflavin, or amino, or hypoxy, or sushi in your life, you'd consider it gibberish? That's really narrow minded.
If a word has a real meaning, it counts. It doesn't matter if you don't know it or not, it's not gibberish.
Uh ... yeah. It does.
No, it doesn't.
That's really narrow minded.
No, it's realistic.
If a word has a real meaning, it counts.
*looks up Eladrin, Tiefling, Genasi, Kalashtar, and Thri-Kreen on Dictionary.com*
It doesn't matter if you don't know it or not, it's not gibberish.
It doesn't matter if you know it or not, it's still gibberish. Would you really argue that ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn isn't gibberish just because you know what it means?
We may just have to leave this one to opinion and move on.
But it doesn't matter, though. Either way, Not Gibberish > Gibberish the vast majority of the time. They're already taking a massive thematic risk with the Shardmind race to begin with. I think that it's okay for them to at least play it safe when it comes to the name.
Wasn't that thread started when we knew little more than the name?
Yes, but people didn't like it even then.
They also didn't like battlemind (IMO niether seem worse then "fighter").
We may just have to leave this one to opinion and move on.
Except it's not an opinion. You're flat out wrong. You not knowing a word is real means jack squat. Real words are not gibberish, no matter how much you protest them sounding otherwise.
And for the sake of clarification, I have no problems with "non-gibberish" names like the various put together names - Shardmind, Battlemind, etc.
EDIT: Never mind, it's just not worth it. People will complain about anything just because it's new, no matter how hypocritical the reasoning is
Good lord, this. So true that it is almost painful.
EDIT: Never mind, it's just not worth it. People will complain about anything just because it's new, no matter how hypocritical the reasoning is, and nothing that I can say will change that, so I'm just not going to bother.
No is complaining about your opinion. Some of us are merely surprised that you think names derived foreign languages are meaningless gibberish. Particularly such an easy to pronounce name as Gwyllion. Refrigerator comes directly from Latin, should we rename it?
On topic: Shardmind is not a very good racial name, but I do prefer it to names like Eladrin. (Sidhi, pronounced shee, would have been better, coming from Gaelic mythology about fey folk; or simply High Elf).
I'm just trying to suggest that if you take a name like Shardmind, change it's language or corrupt the words a bit it becomes a much nicer race name, i.e. "the Krynosis"- from Crystal, Gnosis (knowledge) and a race from Xenosaga.
Sometimes it works, yes. But honestly, if my options were 'Krynosis' and 'Shardmind', I'd take Shardmind.
For the record…
Gwyllion is a Welsh word, it's not made up. It's a type of female ghost that haunts mountain passes and screams at you.
If you think about it, all words are made up. Someone in Wales made up the word 'Gwyllion' when he needed to come up with a name for a female ghost that haunts mountain passes and screams at you.
For the record…
Gwyllion is a Welsh word, it's not made up. It's a type of female ghost that haunts mountain passes and screams at you.
If you think about it, all words are made up. Someone in Wales made up the word 'Gwyllion' when he needed to come up with a name for a female ghost that haunts mountain passes and screams at you.
I meant made up by D&D, like Vecna or Eladrin.
Gwyllion is a term that's derived from a history of language development. It's a much older word, and that's why is a justifiable term.
That said, because it doesn't have immediate archetypal resonance with mot people, I wouldn't use it as a racial name. I do have to say, despite it's silliness, I got the general gist of Shardmind from the beginning, and immediate suspected that it would be able to shatter in to bits of crystals and reform with it's racial power. There were people who doubted that, but now we've gotten confirmation about it.
I still won't use the term Shardmind in my setting (opting for a welsh derivative, Talchion), but it's alright I guess as a core name.
EDIT: Never mind, it's just not worth it. People will complain about anything just because it's new, no matter how hypocritical the reasoning is, and nothing that I can say will change that, so I'm just not going to bother.
Welcome to the Internet.
I'm just trying to suggest that if you take a name like Shardmind, change it's language or corrupt the words a bit it becomes a much nicer race name, i.e. "the Krynosis"- from Crystal, Gnosis (knowledge) and a race from Xenosaga.
Sometimes it works, yes. But honestly, if my options were 'Krynosis' and 'Shardmind', I'd take Shardmind.
I like to call them "Race that does not fit into my campaign in any way, shape, or form."
Psychic robots... *sigh*
I like to call them "Race that does not fit into my campaign in any way, shape, or form."
If I were you, I would be very careful saying things like that, unless you really want to incite yet another reflavoring debate. That said, I will still recommend that you consider reflavoring, because reflavoring can make almost anything fit almost anywhere. If you would like help doing so, then you are more than welcome to PM me so that I can help you. If you want, that is.
I like to call them "Race that does not fit into my campaign in any way, shape, or form."
If I were you, I would be very careful saying things like that, unless you really want to incite yet another reflavoring debate. That said, I will still recommend that you consider reflavoring, because reflavoring can make almost anything fit almost anywhere.
Who needs to reflavor psycho-rocks? They don't offer anything new. Just play a Deva (already mental flavored immortal race) or any number of Int/Cha races out there. How many Int/Cha races do we need anyways? It's not like its a combo in super high demand.
Say all you want, but there's nothing new here. I better open PHB 3 and see the most amazingly well written fluff on these guys for there to be any consideration beyond NPC status.
Who needs to reflavor psycho-rocks? They don't offer anything new... Say all you want, but there's nothing new here.
Well, I think we both know that's not completely accurate. A race isn't defines solely by its ability score boosts. If you're just looking at their ability score boosts, then you're right, of course, but even mechanically, they do offer some new stuff. That they are Living Constructs with mental ability score boosts jumps out at me immediately, meaning that you can reflavor them as a different style of Warforged. This is what I'm currently planning to do in order to introduce them into my own campaign. They're also one of only two races to have Telepathy, which a lot of people think is cool, and the only way to get both Telepathy and an INT bonus, which is a flavorful combination, especially when you also throw in their Psychic Resistance, which is a unique feature.
I'm just saying that I would consider reflavoring before dismissing the idea outright simply due to your first impression.
I like to call them "Race that does not fit into my campaign in any way, shape, or form."
If I were you, I would be very careful saying things like that, unless you really want to incite yet another reflavoring debate. That said, I will still recommend that you consider reflavoring, because reflavoring can make almost anything fit almost anywhere.
Who needs to reflavor psycho-rocks? They don't offer anything new. Just play a Deva (already mental flavored immortal race) or any number of Int/Cha races out there. How many Int/Cha races do we need anyways? It's not like its a combo in super high demand.
Say all you want, but there's nothing new here. I better open PHB 3 and see the most amazingly well written fluff on these guys for there to be any consideration beyond NPC status.
Deva are Int and Wisdom..
That said, I will agree Shardmind are not for every campaign setting, however, that can be said about just about any race. Before I even knew if they were an actual race, I had a place for them in my custom setting, so now I have official support.
Who needs to reflavor psycho-rocks? They don't offer anything new.
Sentient constructs....crystallographic tendancies toward order and geometric perfection.....physically lacking yet gifted in intellect.....the ability to break apart into components and reassemble.....formed from shards of a higher construction and collective purpose.....
What do they offer?
PC stats for Modrons.
Deva are Int and Wisdom..
So are the psychic crystal people.
Deva are Int and Wisdom..
So are the psychic crystal people.
Witch gives us two races with that option. I don't like devas and so I'm happy to have a race i do like that is optimal at the same classes. Unless race is important to the pc concept I go to the best stat bonuses (unless a race has really good other abilities or good feat support for the class), so there were a lot of ideas where the deva was the best option, and i skipped them.
Who needs to reflavor psycho-rocks? They don't offer anything new.
Sentient constructs....crystallographic tendancies toward order and geometric perfection.....physically lacking yet gifted in intellect.....the ability to break apart into components and reassemble.....formed from shards of a higher construction and collective purpose.....
What do they offer?
PC stats for Modrons.
Again, you copy me, Dragoncat. I said this same thing yesterday, with no acknowledgement.
Yes, two races is playing it to death. They aren't a standard humanoid race, they are meant to be more special in that regard. Pile a whole bunch on us, not so special anymore.
There is so much wrong with that statement ...
Besides Warforged and Shardminds being nothing alike, that's two whole races out of 28. And you still think that's too many? I'm sorry, but that is flat out insane. And as for standard humanoid race, how are they not? They're as standard as Eladrin, Gnomes, Changelings, Dragonborn, Deva, and so on.
I was actually trying to make reference to any time someone says there are too many elf types, dwarf types, or the notion that the Githzerai and Githyanki negate each other (there was some discussion on that before WotC made their BS reason public). Unless two races are carbon-copies of each other, they don't negate each other. Maybe I should have used more smilies.
I don't think there have been any races thusfar that come close to stepping on the heels of another, but I could be wrong. We do, after all, have dragoborn AND half-orcs. That discussion annoys me about as much as people that think we can't have Dragonborn AND Draconians (OMG, two dragonmen races that are not at all similar beyond the fact they are dragonmen, HOW WILL WE COPE WITH THIS???!!!!111).
I would really like to see something like an elemental contruct for the book that will have the Elemental power source. Not Genasi clones either. Make 'em Elemental and Living Constructs. Although, I would be happy if they made Archons into a race to be honest.
Did someone already pull the trigger on the "I Shardminded my pants." joke?
Shardmind... it is weird to say but I am already getting used to saying "Wilden".
And for the record, I think that the idea of a crystalline psychic construct race from outer space is absolutely awesome! It's not only a refreshing change from the "human, but with pointy ears" races that we usually get but also from the "everything from outer space or from another dimension has biology inexpliciably similar to that of humans" bull crap.
Same goes for plant people. I don't know why people don't like plant people. I think that that they're awesome. If anything, I wish Wilden were more plant-like than it's turning out that they are.
I agree with C.C.. Make them more plant-like. They seem to be edging towards cat people in the design. Wilden is an "eh" name but we will live with it.
I can't find the link for the spoilers for the shardmind. Someone post a link?
I really just hope that the artwork for the Wilden is much closer to the Killoren than some of the stuff we have been seeing.
I disagree.
Damn... you guys were getting hot and heavy on where words come from... on that note:
Minotaur: The term Minotaur derives from the Greek Μῑνώταυρος, etymologically compounding the name Μίνως (Minos) and the noun ταύρος "bull", translating as "(the) Bull of Minos". (yes... cut and pasted from Wikipedia... don't get mad if someone already made this point above)
...I guess all words come from somewhere and yes "all are made up at some point."
Again, you copy me, Dragoncat. I said this same thing yesterday, with no acknowledgement.
Are you calling him a Copy-Cat? (insert drumroll)
I think more races are better. I think that in your campaign you can make the race names whatever you want. I think halflings and gnomes look too much alike now. I think i'd like to see small races that aren't just fey retreads. (insert: Goblin, Kobold and Dromite) I think that the Githzerai was a good choice to go with but I would have just had "The Gith." I think Minotaurs kick ass and it's about time. (wait... DDI had em for about a year now)
I think Kenku would have been cool though! I do hope we get them at some point.
agree...
My favorite thing in past editions were the Savage Species type books. The more races the better. Like bikini models in a hot tub, I can't get enough.
And if anyone says their heads are catlike, I'd like to point you to this:
Which are based on lemurs, not cats.
I still don't get where people are getting this Wilden are catlike! thing from. We've seen one picture, one, where they have digitigrade legs. While their own entry says they are plants, and the one person that has actually seen the book says they're still plants.
And if anyone says their heads are catlike, I'd like to point you to this:
Well they look pretty catlike from the pictures in the CB.
Hell, I assumed they were catfolk for however long they've been out up until about a week ago when I took a closer look at their entry.
Well they look pretty catlike from the pictures in the CB.
Hell, I assumed they were catfolk for however long they've been out up until about a week ago when I took a closer look at their entry.
*Points to above picture* Not all wedge-heads are cats.
Well they look pretty catlike from the pictures in the CB.
Seriously? This again? I do not see it, and I have no idea where people have been getting this nonsense. They don't look catlike at all in any image that I have seen of them: not in their preview article, not in the character builder, and not in that one Seeker picture.
Did somebody who was both stupid and high at some point in the last couple of months put up some long post or something somewhere referencing Wilden as catlike when they'd never actually seen their picture or read their physical description all? And then a bunch of people, also apparently never having seen any of their art or read their physical description, saw whatever this post or whatever was, somehow got confused, ended up with the misconception that they were in any way feline, and started spreading that around? Because that's the only vaguely reasonable explanation I can come up with for so many people spouting off this nonsense.
Im not trying to be offensive, and maybe this is just me at almost 6 AM and sleep deprived after having to write a ten-page paper due in two hours, but what the **** is wrong with you people? O_o
Who needs to reflavor psycho-rocks? They don't offer anything new.
Sentient constructs....crystallographic tendancies toward order and geometric perfection.....physically lacking yet gifted in intellect.....the ability to break apart into components and reassemble.....formed from shards of a higher construction and collective purpose.....
What do they offer?
PC stats for Modrons.
Again, you copy me, Dragoncat. I said this same thing yesterday, with no acknowledgement.
All right. That's it.
Marandahir, I hereby accuse you of using your time travel power to go into the future, read over my ideas, and return to the past with the malevolent intent of typing them under your own name, thereby allowing you to accuse me of copying.
I will not stand for this, good sir.
Well they look pretty catlike from the pictures in the CB.
Seriously? This again? I do not see it, and I have no idea where people have been getting this nonsense. They don't look catlike at all in any image that I have seen of them: not in their preview article, not in the character builder, and not in that one Seeker picture.
*Points to above picture* Not all wedge-heads are cats.
Look at the CB picture from a distance and tell me that that doesn't look like fur. Plus they've got the flattish nose with nostrils that kinda resemble a cat's, to say nothing of the pointy ears, .
They don't look catlike at all in any image that I have seen of them: not in their preview article, not in the character builder, and not in that one Seeker picture.
Did somebody who was both stupid and high at some point in the last couple of months put up some long post or something somewhere referencing Wilden as catlike when they'd never actually seen their picture or read their physical description all?
um...
um...
I am really surprised that there hasn't been a huge outcry about that picture displaying "plantboobs".
I am really surprised that there hasn't been a huge outcry about that picture displaying "plantboobs".
Check out the perianthal nectaries on that one. Rawr.
Looks kind of like one of those things where you fold the paper in thirds, have one artist draw the head, one draw the torso, and one draw the legs.
Well they look pretty catlike from the pictures in the CB.
Seriously? This again? I do not see it, and I have no idea where people have been getting this nonsense. They don't look catlike at all in any image that I have seen of them: not in their preview article, not in the character builder, and not in that one Seeker picture.
*Points to above picture* Not all wedge-heads are cats.
Look at the CB picture from a distance and tell me that that doesn't look like fur. Plus they've got the flattish nose with nostrils that kinda resemble a cat's, to say nothing of the pointy ears, .
I don't actually think you could draw a creature with "grassy" or "leafy" skin and not have it look like fur. It would be strands of plant protein instead of strands of dead skin cells like hair or fur is made up of (I'm not sure on that with dogs and cats... is the hair the dead skin cells?). Either way, the two types of bodies covered with a strandlike material like that would look the same from far away with the exception of color... and now you want an artist to draw one perfectly depicted? Get real.
I also heard someone say that there were now 28 races. I'm new to fourth edition, but I just spent like 250 US Dollars on books at a gaming convention, and I got them, and so far am pretty pleased, however out of the two players handbooks I only got like 13 or 14 races. Granted, I haven't had a chance to check out the Arcane, Martial, and Divine Power books cover to cover yet, but I'm pretty sure that with the nine books that I have, there's less than 15 races. I will list the books I have, and someone can tell me what I'm missing.
1. PHB
2. PHB2
3. DMG
4. DMG2
5. MM
6. Arcane Power
7. Divine Power
8. Martial Power
9. Adventurers Vault.
I like what I've seen so far with the books that I got, but I REALLY want to know where to find a complete list of all 4th Edition Rulebooks. Not just the cores, but you know with all the Planar Guides and Savage Species type books. I want the PHB3, but why doesn't Wizards sell the books on their website?
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide
Draconomicon 1: Chromatic Dragons
Manual of the Planes
Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead
Dungeon Delve
Monster Manual 2
Eberron Player's Guide
Eberron Campaign Guide
Adventurer's Vault 2
Dragon Annual 2009
Primal Power
Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons
The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos
Underdark
Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn
Martial Power 2
with PHB3 next, and more on the way.
The other races they mentioned would be in the eberron/forgotten realms player's guides, in the 2 monster manuals, and there's one in the MotP. Most of these (all but the player's guides ones) don't have racial feats, PPs, etc.
Missing? OK, not including adventures, there is:
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide
Draconomicon 1: Chromatic Dragons
Manual of the Planes
Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead
Dungeon Delve
Monster Manual 2
Eberron Player's Guide
Eberron Campaign Guide
Adventurer's Vault 2
Dragon Annual 2009
Primal Power
Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons
The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos
Underdark
Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn
Martial Power 2
with PHB3 next, and more on the way.
The other races they mentioned would be in the eberron/forgotten realms player's guides, in the 2 monster manuals, and there's one in the MotP. Most of these (all but the player's guides ones) don't have racial feats, PPs, etc.
Also likely included in the 28 total floating around is the Revenant, an insider only race.
Well they look pretty catlike from the pictures in the CB.
Seriously? This again? I do not see it, and I have no idea where people have been getting this nonsense. They don't look catlike at all in any image that I have seen of them: not in their preview article, not in the character builder, and not in that one Seeker picture.
*Points to above picture* Not all wedge-heads are cats.
Look at the CB picture from a distance and tell me that that doesn't look like fur. Plus they've got the flattish nose with nostrils that kinda resemble a cat's, to say nothing of the pointy ears, .
I don't actually think you could draw a creature with "grassy" or "leafy" skin and not have it look like fur. It would be strands of plant protein instead of strands of dead skin cells like hair or fur is made up of (I'm not sure on that with dogs and cats... is the hair the dead skin cells?). Either way, the two types of bodies covered with a strandlike material like that would look the same from far away with the exception of color... and now you want an artist to draw one perfectly depicted? Get real.
So your agreeing that it's reasonable to mistake the wilden for catfolk if one is not informed that they are actually plantfolk? Meaning we have nothing to argue about?
Most plants are green. Dead plants are brown. But the Wilden portraits in the Character Builder are shades of brown, looking like either 1) fur or 2) possibly dead straw. If I played a Wilden he would be green and leafy, maybe with a garland of flowers.
I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers
I think the issue isn't really color. In the description they change color as they age, like seasons. It is more texture and form. In the Seeker shot they look sleek and well oiled. I imagined more the fawn from Pan's Labyrinth, vines as sinew, knees and elbows like knots, small sprouts popping occasionally. Texture.
But again... that is a long shot that doesn't have much detail. Maybe my problem was that I really liked the black and white preliminary sketches.
Here though the close-up looks much better. The artist has a layered watercolor effect happening when handling the texture the leafs so they look see through, almost like decorative paper, or a stylized leaf-like brushstroke, that keeps the biology of the surface still kind of vague.
Question: with paws like that, do they have a feet magic item slot?
Question: with paws like that, do they have a feet magic item slot?
No.
But they do have a paws slot.
On another note, I would have thought Wilden's optional stat would have been Int or Cha; you would think that as Fey they would be good at least some Arcane classes.
Question: with paws like that, do they have a feet magic item slot?
No.
But they do have a paws slot.
On another note, I would have thought Wilden's optional stat would have been Int or Cha; you would think that as Fey they would be good at least some Arcane classes.
Feywild's more than just Arcane – it's primal too. Eladrin and Gnome just don't show it. Wilden does.
Feywild's more than just Arcane – it's primal too. Eladrin and Gnome just don't show it. Wilden does.
How do you figure?
I've only read to the contrary.
from Primal Power
Primal Fey: The primal spirits inhabit and protect the natural world. The echo planes-the Feywild and the Shadowfell-are not entirely cut off from the spirits' power, but the spirits are much weaker there, where other powers hold sway. You are native to the Feywild, where arcane magic courses through every leaf and blade of grass. You always felt an affinity for and a sensitivity to that magic, a constant awareness of its hum through the wild places of your home. Then you visited the world, and your ear naturally listened for the same vibrant hum. You found it, but it was different it was the song of the primal spirits. You found that you could naturally communicate with those spirits and call on their power.
Why would the Primal Spirit's power be weaker on the Feywild if the Feywild is Primal?
There is a whole sidenote about it on page 44, the sidenote also talks about why Druids have some powers related to the Feywild.
Primal Power did say that; but it still have mixed fluff throughout the MMs and other settings.
And Feywild does have -some- connections, and Wilden tend to live on the borderlands between Feywild and Natural World.
Dryads, Fir Bolgs, Satyrs, to begin with.
What about them?
Primal Power did say that; but it still have mixed fluff throughout the MMs and other settings.
There are some inconsistencies I'm sure, but if you could be more specific, I would like to see what you mean.
And Feywild does have -some- connections, and Wilden tend to live on the borderlands between Feywild and Natural World.
Yes, but it has not much more connection to the Feywild than it does the Shadowfell; Wilden are no more Primal than a Shadar-Kai is, and nowhere near as Primal as any Natural race is.
The 'specialist' power sources subdivide into 'planar' and 'personal'.
The planar power sources are ...
Shadow = Shadowfell
Elemental = Elemental Chaos
Divine = Astral Sea
Primal = Middle World (aka Natural World, Nature, Mortal World, 'the' World, etcetera)
The personal power sources are ...
Martial = Body and Tools
Psionic = Mind and Aura
The 'generalist' power source equals all of the specialist power sources mixed together. Arcane is generalist. The Arcanist can animate undead like a Shadowist necromancer, can shoot fireballs like an Elementalist, can heal like a Divinist Cleric, can shapechange like a Primalist, can wield weapons like a Martialist, can charm and illude and force like a Psionicist. Arcane is the generalist power source.
Now, the connection between Feywild and the Arcane power source is already well established. As of today, I feel they should become identical.
Arcane = Feywild
The catch is ...
In the same way the Arcane power source includes ALL of the other power sources, the plane of Feywild should include ALL of the other planes, mixing it up together.
Thus, the Feywild can have its 'Primal' nature spirits like Storm Bralani Eladrin and Tree-form Dryads. Can have its 'Elemental' spirits like Cold Ghaele Eladrin. Can have its 'Divine' healers and prophetic fates. Can have its 'Shadow' Banshees and Feydark undead. Because. Feywild is Arcane.
The Arcane Feywild should even includes all of the mental dreams of animals and spirits and even the plants that inhabit all of the other planes. And enjoy their bodily physicality or force. Thus Feywild can also have its 'Psionic' mind-magic enchanters and dream-wielding Shrouded Sages, and Aberrants. And 'Martial' Rangers and Rogues.
Arcane (including all power sources, including mental and physical) = Feywild (including all planes, including their mental and physical forces)
It makes sense that arcane=generalist, as that seems to play out well in the arcane classes. One good example is the warlock, which makes pacts with fey, shadow, divine, and psionic entities.
The problem is the elemental power source, best exemplified by the sorcerer... hell, the sorcerer could easily be called an elemental class. Wizards and swordmages also strongly favor elemental powers.
You'd be hard pressed to separate the elemental source from the arcane source at this point, and the elemental chaos would make very strong competition with the feywild for the definitive plane of the powersource.
Remember that there's a connection between the Far Realm and psionics though. That's the "nightmare realm" so to speak, leaving the martial power source as the only truly "personal" source.
It makes sense that arcane=generalist, as that seems to play out well in the arcane classes. One good example is the warlock, which makes pacts with fey, shadow, divine, and psionic entities.
The problem is the elemental power source, best exemplified by the sorcerer... hell, the sorcerer could easily be called an elemental class. Wizards and swordmages also strongly favor elemental powers.
You'd be hard pressed to separate the elemental source from the arcane source at this point, and the elemental chaos would make very strong competition with the feywild for the definitive plane of the powersource.
Not this again.
Sorcerers are Arcane because of the way they channel their power. It's not Elemental because one build has powers that derive from Elemental forces. It's Arcane because it's a form of academic learning, experimentation, and altering the laws of the universe.
Also, by aligning Sources with Planes, you diminish the personal effort related to them. Yes, there may be some more overlap with certain planes, but each Power Source is really about the relationship between the wielder and some power. That power isn't the planes. For the Martial character, it's the latent power that hasn't otherwise been fully utilised by the body. For Shadow, it's a relationship of trading a part of the self for shadow. For the Primal, it's a relationship with the spirits. For Divine, it's a relationship with the Gods (not the Immortals, but the Gods themselves) – or with anything the person deems worthy of worship: worship comes from within, though inspired from above. For Psionic… it seems that the Living Gate might have a factor here for wild talents, but the Psionic relationship is that of ancient mountain monastic training (basically, Ki refitted to Psionics).
The thing is, though, each class within a power source comes about this relationship in a different way. Arcane is no more generalised than Divine or Primal is. The Cleric gets his/her power by rites of investiture by a Church. The deity doesn't really have any direct involvement. The Invoker has a direct relationship with a deity, and thus almost certainly can't be a worshipper of a philosophy, lest that philosophy has a form that can communicate with the Invoker. The Avenger undergoes secret rites that are usually blasphemous to the mainstream religion. Runepriest doesn't even have Channel Divinity, but utilise runes of different kinds.
Barbarians relate to the spirits through their rages, which seem tenuous at best if you have to define it. Druids too – they relate through their wild shapes. Wardens actually transform their bodies, but only Shamans and Seekers really directly deal with Primal Spirits, and in very different ways.
There is no grid, stop trying to make one.
"This isn't the grid we're looking for."
"We can go about our business."
"You can go about your business."
"Move along."
*waves them on*
"Move along... Move along."
There's also the teency weency liitle fact that some of the Archfey can power Primal classes. Or was it that some Archfey are also Primal Spirits? I forget which.
That's only true in FR(or to be more precise there was a single Archfey mentioned who does that and it was mentioned in a FR Dragon article).
An idea that reconciles this grid of power sources with their nature as a seperate entity is perhaps that the planes themselves are defined by the power sources; not the other way around. The Shadowfell was perhaps shaped by Shadow magic, and the natural world was shaped and infused with Primal magic. The power sources are what makes these planes unique in their way. Although I'm sure that all the planes have their spill-overs from other power sources.
For Eladrin, I want an Int-Dex Swordmage build to represent Eladrin eldritch swordfighting. Maybe call it Mageknight or even Eldritch Knight. Also: an Int-Dex Artificer build, where Dex translates into somatic ritual precision and crafting, andor ranged attacks. Maybe call this build the Arcane Archer.
The PH2 has some new benefits for a Dex-Int Rogue, but its not quite a build. I could see a Dex-Int Rogue as a James-Bond courtly spy. Maybe moreso a MacGyver.
Any class concept that requires both a swift mind and a swift body would be Int-Dex.
Haldrik: Yeah, I prefer to see it this way too.
That's only true in FR(or to be more precise there was a single Archfey mentioned who does that and it was mentioned in a FR Dragon article).
No, it's only true as a matter of course for Forgotten Realms. If it's true in one official setting, then it's capable of being true in all. Otherwise we wouldn't have Warforged in FR either. And the fact that it came from a dragon article has absolutely no bearing.
If the Feywild is a confluence of all the other planes, including the Primal Middle World, then it stands to reason some Fey creatures can send Primal magic (back) into the Middle World.
Moreover, all planes commingle to some degree. (Thin veils, and all.) Even for the Immortals in the Astral Sea - even tho the gods by definition wield Divine magic, gods of (Primal) Nature exist there, as well as gods of Arcane magic, gods of Psionic magic, gods of (Shadow) death, and so on.
I like the idea, the Astral Sea is a place where the Divine power source dominates, but it isnt the only accessible source.
So, the Feywild could be a place where the Arcane power source dominates, but it wouldnt be the only source present.
No, it's only true as a matter of course for Forgotten Realms. If it's true in one official setting, then it's capable of being true in all. Otherwise we wouldn't have Warforged in FR either. And the fact that it came from a dragon article has absolutely no bearing.
O_o Your argument is roughly the same as saying that because clerics in FR gain their powers from clearly defined dieties, clerics in Eberrn have to gain their powers from the same clearly defined dieties. There are fluff differences between the settings. The fluff in Primal Power is pretty clear on the nature of the Primal Spirits and a denizen of the Feywild does not fit that description. If you want it to be so in your home setting(or even home adaptation of any setting) then sure you can do that. However that doesn't mean that is how it is in the default setting.
Haldrik: YAY!!!!!!!
I spent a lot of social capital with my I-hate-deities diatribes. Hopefully Il be able to relax now. And let other people relax.
No, it's only true as a matter of course for Forgotten Realms. If it's true in one official setting, then it's capable of being true in all. Otherwise we wouldn't have Warforged in FR either. And the fact that it came from a dragon article has absolutely no bearing.
O_o Your argument is roughly the same as saying that because clerics in FR gain their powers from clearly defined dieties, clerics in Eberrn have to gain their powers from the same clearly defined dieties. There are fluff differences between the settings. The fluff in Primal Power is pretty clear on the nature of the Primal Spirits and a denizen of the Feywild does not fit that description. If you want it to be so in your home setting(or even home adaptation of any setting) then sure you can do that. However that doesn't mean that is how it is in the default setting.
Thank you. Mutt's obsession with everything under the stars in 4th edition be included in one universal rule book is not everyone's talywack. I don't read the mags, so the only material I use from them is in the Annual or is reprinted with slight changes for balance in the books.
Darksun, clerics don't get dieties!
Shouldn't that be Dark Sun doesn't get clerics? I could have sworn that I read Dark Sun just doesn't have the divine power source at all(which I am immediatly retconning if I ever run Dark Sun).
Thank you. Mutt's obsession with everything under the stars in 4th edition be included in one universal rule book is not everyone's talywack. I don't read the mags, so the only material I use from them is in the Annual or is reprinted with slight changes for balance in the books.
Only reason it doesn't apply is because it is a FR article(that would contradict default fluff from a book) not because it is a Dragon article. If we were talking about FR, then the article would totally apply.
Darksun, clerics don't get dieties!
Shouldn't that be Dark Sun doesn't get clerics? I could have sworn that I read Dark Sun just doesn't have the divine power source at all(which I am immediatly retconning if I ever run Dark Sun).
This is true. Elemental Priest is a character theme for Primal PCs, similar to how Templar and Veiled Alliance are character themes for Arcane characters, Gladiator for melee characters, and Wilder for Psionic characters, amongst others.
Divine Source is gone, because there's nothing for them to worship in Dark Sun, and having them would disrupt the fluff-feel they're going for.
Tiefling, Warforged, Dwarf and Shadar-Kai could all become Int/Con races; that's plenty for me
O_o Your argument is roughly the same as saying that because clerics in FR gain their powers from clearly defined dieties, clerics in Eberrn have to gain their powers from the same clearly defined dieties. There are fluff differences between the settings. The fluff in Primal Power is pretty clear on the nature of the Primal Spirits and a denizen of the Feywild does not fit that description. If you want it to be so in your home setting(or even home adaptation of any setting) then sure you can do that. However that doesn't mean that is how it is in the default setting.
I respectfully disagree - it is not the same thing. My argument is more along the lines of Warforged being available in all campaigns, not all gods exist in all campaigns. And while Primal Power contradicts the Archfey can be Primal Spirits idea, remember that Divine Power contradicts the origins of PoL Bane. The WotC response to that was that they're both potentially true.
Thank you. Mutt's obsession with everything under the stars in 4th edition be included in one universal rule book is not everyone's talywack. I don't read the mags, so the only material I use from them is in the Annual or is reprinted with slight changes for balance in the books.
Ah thaX, so predictable. You claim it's my obsession, but you're the one arguing the issue of Core here, not me.
I respectfully disagree - it is not the same thing. My argument is more along the lines of Warforged being available in all campaigns, not all gods exist in all campaigns. And while Primal Power contradicts the Archfey can be Primal Spirits idea, remember that Divine Power contradicts the origins of PoL Bane. The WotC response to that was that they're both potentially true.
Your argument is a change in the nature of a power source, not in there being multiple myths about the orgin of a diety. They are not comparable. The exact response by WotC(or someone who works for them) was that Bane's church tells different versions of the story depending on the sect and who they are trying to convert. That is completely different from a hard fact about the nature of the power source.
Really if we are going with the Bane example, the comparison should be trying to say that FR Bane has the orgin printed in Divine Power because it is Bane's orgin after all.
I don't see how Archfey being Primal Spirits changes the nature of the power source. Archfey are avatars of nature, just as much as Primal Spirits are.
Archfey are distillations of natural phenomenon. Primal Spirits are embodiments of natural cycles. Plus the primal power source works for the most part by channeling the spirits into you or the area immediatly around you. Archfey are corporeal beings making the process a lot more akward(sp) then when involving the bodiless primal spirits.
The sources are already muddled. Archfey, Primal Spirits, Melora, there are plenty of forces that can claim ties to nature. Likewise, there are spirits that aren't primal (ancestral ones come to mind), fey that aren't natural, and gods that wouldn't no a juniper if it bit them on the divine buttocks.
The planes themselves might be clear cut, but power sources aren't meant to be so. And that's a good thing, methinks.
Haldrik: Yeah, I prefer to see it this way too.
Good to see you agree with yourself.
Po-Tay-To, Po-Tah-To.
The sources are already muddled. Archfey, Primal Spirits, Melora, there are plenty of forces that can claim ties to nature. Likewise, there are spirits that aren't primal (ancestral ones come to mind), fey that aren't natural, and gods that wouldn't no a juniper if it bit them on the divine buttocks.
The planes themselves might be clear cut, but power sources aren't meant to be so. And that's a good thing, methinks.
O_o Ancestral spirits in default fluff are clearly primal. In Eberron they aren't, but once again different setting different fluff. I have no idea what you mean with the juniper comment so I can't really respond to it. As for overlap in general, that only really occurs between the gods and the archfey because of how akward(sp) and nuanced gods of nature are in the grand scheme of things(even then they are seperate it is just hard to explain how they don't overlap in concept). Other than that, everything serves a pretty clear cut difference.
O_o Ancestral spirits in default fluff are clearly primal. In Eberron they aren't, but once again different setting different fluff. I have no idea what you mean with the juniper comment so I can't really respond to it. As for overlap in general, that only really occurs between the gods and the archfey because of how akward(sp) and nuanced gods of nature are in the grand scheme of things(even then they are seperate it is just hard to explain how they don't overlap in concept). Other than that, everything serves a pretty clear cut difference.
As someone who seems to understand the relationship between Fey and Primal, I'm curious, what's your take on the Wilden being Fey?
IMO it makes no sense at all.
As someone who seems to understand the relationship between Fey and Primal, I'm curious, what's your take on the Wilden being Fey?
IMO it makes no sense at all.
After double checking the fluff in the Char Builder, I'd say it makes sense. Wilden are arising from the Feywild. They are supposed to be the Feywild's response to the Far Realm incursion. Their closest cousins that I can think of(Treants) would probably also be arising from the Feywild. About the only thing that I can see as being an odd fit is possibly the Nature's Aspect ability, but even there it seems to work for the most part.
I would have rather the Wilden be made into a Natural creature; the only natural plant creature I can think of is the Vine Horror, which have a cool origin. I would've liked Wilden to have a similar origin; maybe they're created when a portion of the natural world is corrupted or destroyed, all the minor spirits in that area are fused together to make a being who has the memories of the area and now seek vengeance. Then it would make sense that they would all favor Primal classes because they themselves are nature incarnate, not just some alien who's a big fan of nature. Then it would also make sense that they look like a mix of Plant, Animal and Insect.
I guess it seemed to me like "oh great, another Fey thats job is protecting nature", which I guess isn't really the case because they were made for a specific purpose, but then that make it seem like the Feywild has a mind of it's own, which seems a little out of the blue; What does the Feywild have against the Farrealm? When the Fey themselves are unnatural Arcane alien beings from another dimension, does the Shadowfell have a response to the Farrealm?
I would have rather the Wilden be made into a Natural creature; the only natural plant creature I can think of is the Vine Horror, which have a cool origin. I would've liked Wilden to have a similar origin; maybe they're created when a portion of the natural world is corrupted or destroyed, all the minor spirits in that area are fused together to make a being who has the memories of the area and now seek vengeance. Then it would make sense that they would all favor Primal classes because they themselves are nature incarnate, not just some alien who's a big fan of nature. Then it would also make sense that they look like a mix of Plant, Animal and Insect.
Mcnancy, there seems to be sufficient fluff in PH3 for Wilden explaining this. Or at least, it was in the playtest article. One of the things about the Feywild is that it is the related to the most pristine and primeaval regions: The Feywild is as the world was during the dawn, while the Shadowfell is as it will be during the dusk of time. At least that's the fluff that's been established in DMG1 and MotP.
In the Wilden playtest, of which the fluff was nearly unchanged (a few words altered, style as well), this is what is said:
"With the dew of their creation still wet upon their brows, the wilden emerge from the Feywild’s unspoiled reaches, from ancient bogs and primeval forests. Awakened to combat the growing corruption plaguing the lands, they shoulder the burden of restoring the natural order and purging the aberrant horror from the world."
Also, from the PLAYING WILDEN section:
"The wilden are a race in their infancy. They believe that they awoke to meet a threat casting a tainted shadow across the Feywild and into the world: the rising power of the Far Realm and its incursions into the rest of the known universe, in the form of tainted aberrant creatures.
"Central to wilden existence are nature’s three aspects: the keeper of ancient secrets, the destroyer, and the hunter. As keepers of ancient secrets, the wilden act as stewards, preserving the untouched lands against any those that would transform it or exploit it. The destroyer aspect is nature’s fury incarnate, the destruction embodied by hurricanes, tornadoes, and lightning strikes. Finally, the asp[ect of the hunter seeks out and eradicates aberrant corruption, containing its taint before it can spread.
Individuality has no place in a wilden’s life.
…
"While many wilden shape their beliefs through exposure to other cultures, they maintain that their purpose is to secure the Feywild and the natural world from harm. If they follow gods, they tend to venerate those who cherish nature, such as Melora, Sehanine, and Corellon. Wilden may also venerate primal spirits as well.
"The wilden have no kingdoms, no cities, but regard all of nature as being their home. Where they do congregate, they gather in small communities in places where the borders between the Feywild and the natural world are thinnest, deep in the wilds. The wilden live in harmony with nature so even in these settlements, it is anybody’s guess where the wilderness leaves off and the community begins."
Should that satisfy you for why they're in the Feywild, and their mentality of being "against" the Far Realm?
PH3: 'Central to wilden existence are NATURE’s three aspects. ...'
The Wilden race seems awkwardly Primal, corresponding to the Plane of 'Nature' (aka Natural World, Mortal World, Middle World, etcetera).
If the Feywild is a confluence of all the other planes, then arguably, the Wilden are fey creatures that originate from those places in the Feywild where the veil with the Middle World is thin. So in this way, the Fey Wilden embody much from the 'Natural' World and its Primal themes.
I didnt really note the problem til McNancy pointed it out, but McNancy is right.
PH3: 'Central to wilden existence are NATURE’s three aspects. ...'
The Wilden race seems awkwardly Primal, corresponding to the Plane of 'Nature' (aka Natural World, Mortal World, Middle World, etcetera).
If the Feywild is a confluence of all the other planes, then arguably, the Wilden are fey creatures that originate from those places in the Feywild where the veil with the Middle World is thin. So in this way, the Fey Wilden embody much from the 'Natural' World and its Primal themes.
The feywild is nature with the contrast turned up to 1 million. The Wilden are nature's response to the far realm isolated and magnified by the nature of the feywild. At least that is how I think of them.
I think in the context of Fey creatures spawned to defend against the Far-realm, they make sense fluff wise, but within that context I feel they should stop acting like they're Primal and just own up to their Arcane origins
The Warden is the natural world's response to the far-realm; so IMO the idea of some Arcane alien being showing up and acting like it's the savior of all things natural is just dumb.
I've read their chapter in the PH3, I was not saying that they didn't seem Fey to me, I was saying that they didn't seem Primal to me.
I think in the context of Fey creatures spawned to defend against the Far-realm, they make sense fluff wise, but within that context I feel they should stop acting like they're Primal and just own up to their Arcane origins
The Warden is the natural world's response to the far-realm; so IMO the idea of some Arcane alien being showing up and acting like it's the savior of all things natural is just dumb.
But they are nature's response to the Far Realm, just to the nth degree rather than to the first power. And the Warden is not nature's response to the far-realm. The traditions of the warden are older than the recent incursion(to the best of my recollection at least, I can't check Primal Power atm).
But they are nature's response to the Far Realm, just to the nth degree rather than to the first power. And the Warden is not nature's response to the far-realm. The traditions of the warden are older than the recent incursion(to the best of my recollection at least, I can't check Primal Power atm).
The Warden specifically is a very new tradition, created in response to the growing threats against nature including the Far-realm.
And seeing how the Seeker can't seem to come up with it's own fluff, I guess it's practically the same thing as Warden... As far as I'm concerned, they're just Wardens with bows.
wardens are a more recent order, forged in response to the progress of history and the threats that recent events have unleashed.
Still and silent as the towering oaks, a gnarled warrior watches for signs of aberrant activity in the forest.
A ranger is a fighter with a bow.
No it's not, and even if it was that would not really apply because those classes have very simple fluff, where as the Warden and Seeker have very specific fluff, the fluff that I speak of is what sets Warden apart from Fighter and other classes and what should set Seeker apart from other classes.
Both Warden and Seeker are have the same fluff, both are enlisted by the Spirits to protect nature; IMO the few differences there are, are very superficial.
Do you really think Rangers are just Fighters with bows? because I could explain to you how wrong of statement that is if you'd like.
McNancy, ah. When you said, 'I would have rather the Wilden be made into a Natural creature,' I thought you meant the Wilden flavor is so nature-oriented (as it seems intensely nature to me), it wouldv made more sense to just make their origin Natural.
Do you really think Rangers are just Fighters with bows? because I could explain to you how wrong of statement that is if you'd like.
Please do.
McNancy, ah. When you said, 'I would have rather the Wilden be made into a Natural creature,' I thought you meant the Wilden flavor is so nature-oriented (as it seems intensely nature to me), it wouldv made more sense to just make their origin Natural.
Ah, I see. What I meant was that Wilden flavor is so Primal-oriented (what with their favored classes ans all), it would've made more sense to just make their origin Natural.
Please do.
Well here's the way I see it, in general terms of course, there are always exceptions; Fighters eat, sleep and breath battle, their lives revolve around it, it's all they know. When I think about a fighter's prinicples, they approach a problem as a warrior above all else. When A fighter has a calling other than just fighting, it's a calling that comes to those who can already fight. Warrior is their first nature.
With a Ranger, it's the other way around, the warrior aspect is consequential to the calling; fighting is just a means to an end for a Ranger, which is way their fighting styles are often much more intuitive than a fighters. Fighters only know fighting, where as a Ranger will employ Stealth or Animals or Traps to get the job done, a Rangers does not fight for fighting sake. Warrior is their second nature.
Well here's the way I see it, in general terms of course, there are always exceptions; Fighters eat, sleep and breath battle, their lives revolve around it, it's all they know. When I think about a fighter's prinicples, they approach a problem as a warrior above all else. When A fighter has a calling other than just fighting, it's a calling that comes to those who can already fight. Warrior is their first nature.
With a Ranger, it's the other way around, the warrior aspect is consequential to the calling; fighting is just a means to an end for a Ranger, which is way their fighting styles are often much more intuitive than a fighters. Fighters only know fighting, where as a Ranger will employ Stealth or Animals or Traps to get the job done, a Rangers does not fight for fighting sake. Warrior is their second nature.
What would you describe as a Ranger's first nature?
What would you describe as a Ranger's first nature?
It's not always the same thing, It depends on the Ranger; it's usually something that requires a lot of self reliance.
Take the military for example; a fighter in the military often has only one responsibility/goal and thats to fight and to fight good, a Ranger in the military often has a more complicated role that might require just as much fighting but it would be for a specific purpose.
Rangers are good at fighting because they have to be, they have a special purpose; Fighters are good at fighting because it's all they do, they do not fight for a special purpose.
What would you describe as a Ranger's first nature?
It's not always the same thing, It depends on the Ranger; it's usually something that requires a lot of self reliance.
Take the military for example; a fighter in the military often has only one responsibility/goal and thats to fight and to fight good, a Ranger in the military often has a more complicated role that might require just as much fighting but it would be for a specific purpose.
Rangers are good at fighting because they have to be, they have a special purpose; Fighters are good at fighting because it's all they do, they do not fight for a special purpose.
about first/second nature, this is what I imagined for the "Future of ADOM" roguelike
Te Healer
Tm Archer
Tp Assassin
Ts Fighter
Et Priest
Em Paladin
Ep Bard
Es Monk
Mt Ranger
Me Beastfighter
Mp Druid
Ms Barbarian
Pt Mindcrafter
Pe Necromancer
Pm Wizard
Ps Elementalist
St Weaponsmith
Se Merchant
Sm Thief
Sp Farmer
Major domain, minor Domain
domains are defined in the TEMPS sub-system:
--(T)echnics gives you lots of skills and skill levels
--(E)mpathy helps you understand the working of many things in the
world, including creatures, elements, status, and classes.
--(M)usic is the key to enthousiasm, that is to say moral; with a high
moral you can supercede your skill levels, and you can spend moral to
achieve great deeds.
--(P)hysics lets you understand the magics of reality, giving you
access to spells (each class should have a spell list with unique
spells attached to it);each spell is bound to a domain.
--(S)team is your personal endurance reserve; with high stamina you can
launch more spells, or sustain more non-critical blows.
edit:you build a character with combining classes that have different Major and minor domains like in:
Te/Et/Ms/Pm/Sp i.e. Healer/Priest/Barbarian/Wizard/Farmer
you can also choose Te/Et/Ms/Sm but then you would have nothing (or so) in P
Player's Alignment is based on AD&D i.e. nine possibilities, see
below:
<-Lawful: Empathy is doubled, Steam is halved
->Chaotic: Steam is doubled, Empathy is halved
/\Good: Music is doubled, Technics is halved
\/Bad: Technics is doubled, Music is halved
Neutral: Physics is doubled