Has Wizards indicated we'll ever see a revamped monk or wild shape druid, for example?
Which classes are they going to cover?
Warlord, Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Warlock, Wizard.
Was the class compendium scrapped and moved to online content?
Yes. The book amounted to "PHB nerfs we charge you for." You have to wonder whose idea that was.
Has Wizards indicated we'll ever see a revamped monk or wild shape druid, for example?
No.
-DS
I love the class compendiums....finally got me reading the older classes
How so? Apart from the nerfs, they barely look any different to the ones presented in the PHB.
Dude contridicts himself frequently. Give up on him now before you lose what sanity you have.
yea i do contridict myself all the time but i am ok with that, tho i will always say this....i never read past lvl 3 or 5 depending how much i wanted to read from the classes in PH1 but with the new stuff, i love reading all the fluff that goes with the powers
Dude contridicts himself frequently. Give up on him now before you lose what sanity you have.
I've noticed that. I guess that's why nobody ever really responds to his posts, but I digress, we're drifting off topic...
I'm really glad they didn't release the Class Compendium as a book; considering the uproar over the cleric (and now from the looks of it the wizard) changes, I think it would have been even worse if we'd seen this stuff in printed form.
I'm really glad they didn't release the Class Compendium as a book; considering the uproar over the cleric (and now from the looks of it the wizard) changes, I think it would have been even worse if we'd seen this stuff in printed form.
Wait. What did they do to the magi? I didn't bother to read it as I expected no changes.
Remember how the Cleric got nerfed because WotC has this crazy idea that controllers are overpowered? Well, imagine what they did to the actual controller.
I'm really glad they didn't release the Class Compendium as a book; considering the uproar over the cleric (and now from the looks of it the wizard) changes, I think it would have been even worse if we'd seen this stuff in printed form.
Wait. What did they do to the magi? I didn't bother to read it as I expected no changes.
Remember how the Cleric got nerfed because WotC has this crazy idea that controllers are overpowered? Well, imagine what they did to the actual controller.
but they needed it....my dad would agree
I'm really glad they didn't release the Class Compendium as a book; considering the uproar over the cleric (and now from the looks of it the wizard) changes, I think it would have been even worse if we'd seen this stuff in printed form.
Wait. What did they do to the magi? I didn't bother to read it as I expected no changes.
Remember how the Cleric got nerfed because WotC has this crazy idea that controllers are overpowered? Well, imagine what they did to the actual controller.
but they needed it....my dad would agree
No, they really didn't. Wizards haven't been overpowered since the orbizard was nerfed. That was just one build.
Clerics most certainly didn't need it.
I'm really glad they didn't release the Class Compendium as a book; considering the uproar over the cleric (and now from the looks of it the wizard) changes, I think it would have been even worse if we'd seen this stuff in printed form.
Wait. What did they do to the magi? I didn't bother to read it as I expected no changes.
Remember how the Cleric got nerfed because WotC has this crazy idea that controllers are overpowered? Well, imagine what they did to the actual controller.
but they needed it....my dad would agree
No, they really didn't. Wizards haven't been overpowered since the orbizard was nerfed. That was just one build.
Clerics most certainly didn't need it.
me and my dad both hated the zones that did "at the beginning" so he house ruled that if any zone or aura that says "at the beginning of their turn" was changed to "if they end of their turn" so his house rule became a real rule with zones at less
Which classes are they going to cover?
All the PH1 classes. Initially it was just going to be the one slated for the Class compendium but they decided to just cut to the chase and do 'em all.
Ultimately, similar articles will probably come out for all pre-Essentials classes.
Was the class compendium scrapped and moved to online content?
Yes.
Has Wizards indicated we'll ever see a revamped monk or wild shape druid, for example?
Not yet. But unless Rich Baker decides to empark upon a new new direction, the line is dropped by Hasbro, or 5e comes out first, we'll see 'em eventually.
but they needed it....my dad would agree
What? Wait let me guess your dads name is mike? You do realize that you make less sense every time you post; yes?
Change for the sake of change. I thought Mearls learned from the cleric debacle?
my dad house ruled that if any aura or zone had "starts its turn in" to "ends its turn in", we been playing like this since the wizard got Stinking Cloud and he became blood mage.....but he is glad all the changes for all the zones went to "end its turn in"...found the wizard was doing to much damage
I'm really glad they didn't release the Class Compendium as a book; considering the uproar over the cleric (and now from the looks of it the wizard) changes, I think it would have been even worse if we'd seen this stuff in printed form.
Wait. What did they do to the magi? I didn't bother to read it as I expected no changes.
Remember how the Cleric got nerfed because WotC has this crazy idea that controllers are overpowered? Well, imagine what they did to the actual controller.
but they needed it....my dad would agree
No, they really didn't. Wizards haven't been overpowered since the orbizard was nerfed. That was just one build.
Clerics most certainly didn't need it.
me and my dad both hated the zones that did "at the beginning" so he house ruled that if any zone or aura that says "at the beginning of their turn" was changed to "if they end of their turn" so his house rule became a real rule with zones at less
Your disliking of a mechanic doesn't mean that the mechanic, or a class that uses the mechanic, is broken.
I'm really glad they didn't release the Class Compendium as a book; considering the uproar over the cleric (and now from the looks of it the wizard) changes, I think it would have been even worse if we'd seen this stuff in printed form.
Wait. What did they do to the magi? I didn't bother to read it as I expected no changes.
Remember how the Cleric got nerfed because WotC has this crazy idea that controllers are overpowered? Well, imagine what they did to the actual controller.
but they needed it....my dad would agree
No, they really didn't. Wizards haven't been overpowered since the orbizard was nerfed. That was just one build.
Clerics most certainly didn't need it.
me and my dad both hated the zones that did "at the beginning" so he house ruled that if any zone or aura that says "at the beginning of their turn" was changed to "if they end of their turn" so his house rule became a real rule with zones at less
Your disliking of a mechanic doesn't mean that the mechanic, or a class that uses the mechanic, is broken.
well we found it as a problem and so did Wizards.....so i think i am right :D
No one else thought so. Which makes the nerf exceptionally stupid.
there is most likely people that thought it was bad but just not on here....my dad has found alot of people complaining about the cloud spell so he knew he was not the only one and i did not like it and i am a player in my dad's game and it was on our team that was doing it
The designers really don't have a clue any more. Everything they put out just keeps getting worse and further out on left field.
Hopefully it gets better now that the main hack was shoved up in hierarchy and Rich Baker is the new head of D&D R&D.
Which classes are they going to cover?
All the PH1 classes. Initially it was just going to be the one slated for the Class compendium but they decided to just cut to the chase and do 'em all.
Ultimately, similar articles will probably come out for all pre-Essentials classes.
Where did you hear this?
there is most likely people that thought it was bad but just not on here....my dad has found alot of people complaining about the cloud spell so he knew he was not the only one and i did not like it and i am a player in my dad's game and it was on our team that was doing it
When you hang with yes men. Be perpared to hear yes frequently.
Here on the forums I cannot recall anyone stating the power was borked for this reason. Borked because of push / slide, sure, but not because the monster couldn't run before the spell took effect. Bad design, and it keeps getting worse.
i just got back from playing my superhero game and was telling one of the guys about how they made most/all of the wizard spells that have areas have "end its turn" and he said "yea, i agree on that, that is how it should had always been"
Errata for the sake of errata is bad design. I wish Mearls would learn that.
but the errata for the zones were badly needed
No they were no more needed than the clerical nerfings.
again...the errata for zones needed badly.....again, my dad and I love the changes
Change for the sake of change reminds me of when i was in the navy, and the new CO would come in and change a bunch of things so people would know he was in charge.
It reminds me of the old "Write Two Letters" joke...
the wizard was a blood mage and was doing to much damage with just one zone spell....should not be that way...the wizard should make the zone an the party members should try and help keep the monsters in the zone...the spell was to powerful also you can move the zone....so they take damage that way and when it starts their turn...tomuch damage for the wizard to be doing with just one spell....should give anyone that enters a chance to get out of it before taking more damage and if you think about it...it helps with party memebers go into it and keeping monsters in it and getting out of the zone before it hurts you again....so i think its great
Please keep posts on topic and respectful.
Reconsidering my earlier post in light of Essentials being described as "an entry point" to 4e (see this post), I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it is easier for an Essentials character to migrate toward other 4e character options, than it is for a "core" character to expand toward Essentials options. At least it's fairly easy to pillage the powers (if not the "subclass" features). I still think it wouldn't have taken much more effort (before publication) to make Essentials more compatible with the "core" that came before.
-DS
Ugh! Smells like ORC in here.
Reconsidering my earlier post in light of Essentials being described as "an entry point" to 4e (see this post), I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it is easier for an Essentials character to migrate toward other 4e character options, than it is for a "core" character to expand toward Essentials options. At least it's fairly easy to pillage the powers (if not the "subclass" features). I still think it wouldn't have taken much more effort (before publication) to make Essentials more compatible with the "core" that came before.
-DS
Not really. I've seen people do compatibility in a day or two. Foxface had a one or two day compatiblity fix for the slayer... Its really not as hard as they are making it out to be. heck I created a simplified mage in like 10 minutes...
Ugh! Smells like ORC in here.
Reconsidering my earlier post in light of Essentials being described as "an entry point" to 4e (see this post), I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it is easier for an Essentials character to migrate toward other 4e character options, than it is for a "core" character to expand toward Essentials options. At least it's fairly easy to pillage the powers (if not the "subclass" features). I still think it wouldn't have taken much more effort (before publication) to make Essentials more compatible with the "core" that came before.
-DS
Not really. I've seen people do compatibility in a day or two. Foxface had a one or two day compatiblity fix for the slayer... Its really not as hard as they are making it out to be. heck I created a simplified mage in like 10 minutes...
Nod. Designing compatibility back into the Slayer is the work of an afternoon - for an amature, I'm sure a professional could do it faster and/or better. Knight only a little more work. The Warpriest could be made compatible in seconds. The Mage is already all-too compatible.
Compatibility can't really have been the point. Retaining compatibility with the existing system would've been easy, but wasn't done. Therefor, compatibility wasn't a priority. Rather, getting the whole game moved over in the 'new direction,' is a priority, and that means achieving compatibility by changing the old, rather than designing it into the new.
Wouldn't be so bad if the new direction weren't so enthusiastic about lowering the bar on class balance and quality, in general...
So instead of one simple fix to a general rule that would have put everything in a proper place, we have nerfs to a ton of individual powers. Not only an unnecessarily inelegant and complicated choice, but also they chose to give these powers not just the one nerf that was needed, but two or more other nerfs on top of it, utterly eviscerating these powers. To be honest, I'm as bitter at the extreme damage instance nerfs as I am at the end-of-turn placement.
Powers that present enemies choices need to make those choices hard, by making the penalties significant. These new zones basically say "move on your turn to suffer no ill effect and retroactively make the wizard waste their turn completely. If for some reason movement is at all disadvantageous, instead stay in the zone and suffer negligible damage, not at all a disincentive". These zones, especially the daily ones, are simply not worth using ever. They're not worth their power level or action investment.
I understand that for some reason the designers now think 'damage = striker, if you aren't a striker you shouldn't get to deal any', but if the only disincentive on a controller's power is the damage, and there isn't any damage, then there isn't any control, either.
So now you have cloudkill forcing the following choice on the enemy:
You can get a concealment buff, but have to take some minimal set damage every round. If you decide it's not worth it, you can walk out of the area at any time with no penalty at all - you even get the concealment buff to defenses against any opp attacks you might incur on the way out, and don't take any damage from the cloud on that turn.
And that's a daily, that requires actions to sustain.
Seriously.
They nerfed cloudkill so much it's a buff.
But yeah, they suffer from the same problem as similar, damage at eot smoke screens that binders like to hand thier enemies in an effort to contribute something at all to combat, even if it's to the opposing side. Just... just ugh.
There's nothing funny about the Tomb of Horrors. I mean, the Binder.
I frequent several boards like this and I never heard that magi powers were boken. I think its just blackhearts group. I cannot recall anyone on the char op bards sating the mechanics were broken and the guys/gals down there would know, its what they do.
I agree they were not broken...but I belive the change does make them more control and less strikerey
now it forces movement were before all it did was damage...
No one at our table would have paid money for a Class Compendium hardcover (or softcover or magazine) as they have been currently presented: a rewriting of select PHB1 classes in Essentials format, with errata.
Now, I would pay money for WotC to stop screwing with the pre-Eessintials classes.... What do you say Wizards? How much will it take to get you to quit?
Have you ever had one of your friends play a binder? Watched them struggle with their sickness? Seen the joy and innocence slowly fade from their eyes until they're hollow inside? Until they realize that their imaginary lives are completely meaningless, that there is no hope? Until they start to take irrational imaginary risks, hoping that imaginary death might end their suffering? Until they start suggesting things that might take the whole party down with them, like suggesting we investigate the Tomb of Horrors? I have. And it's not funny. I lost two characters. Two!
um what is so bad about a binder? My roomate is enjoying his shade binder...
I will admit he has a homebrew theme that so far all he has is the 1st level encounter prime stat vs fort... 1d8+ps necrotic and psychic damage and blind all in CB 2... special if you have combat advantage you may make it 3d4 instead of 1d8, but only 1 target.
but so far so good...
um what is so bad about a binder?
Adequately demonstrated here.
Malisteen really did try to find something in the Binder he could like. It was actually quite heartbreaking at the time to watch him go from being enthusiastic enough to devote the time to write a full CharOp guidebook to... well... not being enthusiastic at all. At least the Vampire class, for all that it's not a very good striker, manages to do a good job of letting you play a character that's indisputably a vampire (i.e. not a dhampyr, or a 'living vampire' race, or something reflavoured to be sorta-kinda-a-vampire-if-you-squint-at-it). Likewise, the Seeker, while a pretty weak controller, at least lets you play a primal archer who shoots arrows that explode into fairies, which is a unique (and fairly cool) character concept. But the Binder is just a normal Warlock, except with less damage and no real increase in control to make up for it. Whatever character concept you are going for, you're always going to be better off as a PHB Warlock or Hexblade (or a Wizard) than as a Binder. The Binder is uniquely bad in that it's not only a weak class, it's also entirely obsolete.
um what is so bad about a binder? My roomate is enjoying his shade binder...
I don't want to step on their fun. There's a binder in my current party, and I withhold comment while I'm there.
But, imagine this situation. You play a warlock, but you decide 'curses' aren't heroic, so you never use warlock's curse. You don't get something else from your DM, you just refuse to use your striker feature. Also, you hit the 'choose for me' buttons to select your encounter powers, and get the generally poor choices one could expect from doing so. If by circumstance you get something ok, something you'd rather keep then trade out for a probably even worse higher level power, you can't keep it. Instead must hit 'choose for me' again to exchange it for a higher level but probably worse power when the time comes. Since you aren't using your striker feature, you decide to call yourself a controller.
You are the binder. That is what a binder is. It's a warlock with no striker feature, no increased control to make up for it, and you're stuck picking encounter powers that, had you access to the main warlock list, you probably wouldn't pick, even if you're just looking for control and not striking.
half the time, its control helps the enemy more then it hurts them, protecting them from the attacks of your allies with smoke screens but doing nothing to stop them from just walking out and attacking completely unimpeeded once their turn comes.
It's just... I can't....
Look, if your friend is having fun, they're having fun, and it doesn't matter. I had fun playing an assassin back when they were first released. You can have fun playing weaker classes if you like their style. But warlocks have the exact same style, while being better at control then binders, and simultaneously functional strikers if they're built right. The binder is weak, but that's not why I hate it, I like some other weak classes (ossassin, executioner, seeker). What makes me upset about the binder is that it's obsolete. The designer took the warlock, made it worse at everything, including control, took away its striker feature, and then printed it without giving it anything of its own to speak for it. Warlocks weren't even a strong class to begin with. It's just incomprehensibly bad design. Did nobody stop at any point and say "hey, we started with a warlock to make the binder, and we took out all the stuff that made the warlock any good, but we didn't add anything back in at all, I think maybe we need to work on it some more"? No. Nobody ever said that. Because the point of the Binder wasn't to provide something new for players, it was to fill space in a book. Most of Heroes of Shadow has that exact mentality about it - that "we don't care, just stuff it till it's barely big enough that we can justify charging $30 for it" mentality. It's just infuriating.
I frequent several boards like this and I never heard that magi powers were boken. I think its just blackhearts group. I cannot recall anyone on the char op bards sating the mechanics were broken and the guys/gals down there would know, its what they do.
I agree they were not broken...but I belive the change does make them more control and less strikerey
now it forces movement were before all it did was damage...
Zone powers did encourage movement - they just encouraged movement /and/ did damage. Enemies could avoid some damage by scatering, engaging so closely that you couldn't get them in the zone without getting your allies too, or otherwise trying to move to places where you couldn't or wouldn't want to place the zone. They took some damage, and took less if they moved certain ways. Now, you still encourage them to move, but, if they move each round, even just shuffling back and forth through the zone, they take nothing. So it does still control, but it doesn't to the level of damage contribution that control powers generlly do in addition to exerting some soft control.
But controller classes that are actually good (like the wizard or invoker) don't care how helpful or otherwise the DM is. They get hard control powers that just work, no matter what the DM throws at them. They don't rely on the DM cooperating with them to be able to do their job.
(BTW, I'm not in any way criticising 'kind' DMs who try to give their players' characters the opportunity to shine even if they're objectively not very well-built. My group's wizard chose Scorching Burst and Magic Missile as his at-wills (both objectively pretty piss-poor powers), and I try to make sure both those spells are useful by throwing pelnty of minions his way, as well as always letting the players know when an enemy is down to few enough HPs to be auto-killed by MM. IMO, DMs should do things like this. I just don't think whole classes or subclasses should depend upon DMs doing this in order to function.)
If the monster accepts the soft control, it takes controller-level damage (on the low end).
If the monster defies the soft control, it ends up taking striker-level damage (if not a tad high even for a striker).
Thats how at least some defenders exert their marks. Respect the mark, or take as much damage from the defender as you are from the striker you're defying the mark to attack.
Their politic re: balance issues and general rules mayhem always had been "don't fix it, publish updated versions in the guise of brand new products instead - 3.5 shall never happen again" (the Monster Vault a.k.a Monster Manual 1.5 being the clearest example)
So why do that Class Comp? And why fix precisley those classes that got redesigned Essentials versions anyways? The mind boggles. One would have expected Class Compendiums precisely for those poor monk, sorcerer, runepriest... etc?
(Btw, don't get me wrong. As I don't use Essentials material at all, the CC actually felt like a very welcome surprise: updated and corrected version of the classes I use (esp that poor warlock with his useless broken powers). Ony thing I didn't like is the awkward, wordy, unwieldy essentials-style presentation and that they un-nerfed stuff they had nerfed, which shows poor confidence in their design.)
Which of these classes are complete as of now (not in still in play-testing)??
If there are classes not yet final, any hint about when they might be done?