Geomancer
Air based class
earth based class
fire based class
wind based class
Uhm... Not sure just throwing stuff out there.
Perhaps existing classes using a different build/power source?
What they can do, however, is treat the Elemental power source as the opponent of the Divine power source. It is not about elemental damage, it is about Primordials, the elemental chaos. It is not earth, fire, wind, and water.
Bel
What they can do, however, is treat the Elemental power source as the opponent of the Divine power source. It is not about elemental damage, it is about Primordials, the elemental chaos. It is not earth, fire, wind, and water.
First, is "elemental" a confirmed future source?
If so, then this is almost certainly how it'll roll.
What they can do, however, is treat the Elemental power source as the opponent of the Divine power source. It is not about elemental damage, it is about Primordials, the elemental chaos. It is not earth, fire, wind, and water.
I agree, I have a feeling we are going see Elemental Power defined by it's opposition of Divine Power.
Duality is a major theme in the 4E cosmology, so I think the Elemental source will be in a way congruent to Divine but at the same time it will be Divine's polar opposite. And if all Divine classes focus on the Gods then the Elemental classes will focus on the Primordials
This is why elves and dwarves don't have problems in 4E. This is why Primal and Divine Power Sources don't have problems in 4E. However an Elemental character gets his power, he needs to be able to party-up with a Cleric.
I currently am not certain how this would work, but I'm certain that it will work.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
The problem with making them "Divine, but for the primordials" is that's exactly what it will appear to be. Perhaps having one or two classes that interact with the primordials would be cool, but the concept of them just being a direct reskin of Divine seems a little boring to me.
The most interesting solution I've seen to this problem is having the elemental power source steal their power from the primordials, so they remain the big bads, but they can still fuel the elemental power source.
Mark my words.
That will be a MAJOR theme of Elemental. Following the theme of the Elemental Chaos that is constantly changing, the Elemental classes will excel at turning stuff into other stuff.
the Elemental classes will excel at turning stuff into other stuff.
In the same way that the Primal classes have the theme of turning themselves into other things? That could work.
Druid: "I'm gonna turn into a tiger and eat your face."
vs.
Elementalist: "I'm gonna turn your left arm into a tiger made of lava and make you eat your own face."
TRANSMUTATION.
Mark my words.
That will be a MAJOR theme of Elemental. Following the theme of the Elemental Chaos that is constantly changing, the Elemental classes will excel at turning stuff into other stuff.
I completely agree with you. That and combining two or more of the classic elements. If you look at the monster Elementals, they are just that a conglomeration of two elements, fire and earth, etc. Personally, I'm just looking for a class that can change the ground under a group of enemies to mud rather than doing insane points of damage. Or can raise pillars of stone to alter the battlefield, or make enemies torches extinguish or explode. All kinds of neat stuff.
Heck, when we see how the rust monster is done, they could even warp the weapons and armour of enemies to make less accurate and easier to hit.
Transmutation is the way to go. In fact, I suspect that will many of the old wizard specialists are going to end up as their own class so we may just see a transmuter class.
-Geomancer/Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
I was reading "Beyond the Mottled Tower," February's installment of the Scales of War AP. I found this passage in a sidebar:
Show
Blood chaos is a potent acidic distillation of raw elemental essence, first collected and refined from the Elemental Chaos by Djamela, a long-dead efreet conjurer. The efreet created this horrid ooze in the course of experimenting with the fundamental mutability of her home plane, storing it in a vast reservoir in her remote tower home.
I agree, I have a feeling we are going see Elemental Power defined by it's opposition of Divine Power.
Duality is a major theme in the 4E cosmology, so I think the Elemental source will be in a way congruent to Divine but at the same time it will be Divine's polar opposite. And if all Divine classes focus on the Gods then the Elemental classes will focus on the Primordials
I was under the impression that the designers were activly attempting to REMOVE duality from the game. Positive/negative energy planes, distinct Elemental realms, Angels good/demons and devils bad all these things have been altered in 4e. (ok Demons and Devils are still bad, but they don't have their good incarnate opposition anymore.)
In fact I sure I read an article stating that that kind of polar opposition was being removed out of the design process. Hence Chromatic Dragons still being Evil, but Metallics being Unaligned but tending towards good.
As to the Elemental source, its something i've been wondering about for a while. I very much like the concept of it being transmutation based, but how will it differentiate itself from Arcane transmutation? Unless transmutation is removed from the arsenal of the Arcane.
I was under the impression that the designers were activly attempting to REMOVE duality from the game.
Yes, they have stated a design goal of 4th Ed is to remove needless symmetry, so things like this Martial Controller some people are clamouring for, may never happen.
Honestly I don't see that there are any 'missing' power sources at this point, unless it's 'shadow'. What niche would elemental fill, exactly? You can do the whole fire/air/water/earth thing with arcane classes, and indeed, such classes have been released. Elemental also seems like it might imply a class with raw, untamed power, but sorcerer's fill that spot nicely and they are arcane. Drawing from ancient, untamed forces is also very much the bailiwick of the Primal power source and its classes.
People here have mentioned classes with transmutation-focused powers, but again, this seems like something that the Arcane power source could supply.
I honestly think that maybe when the PHB was released they just hadn't figured out all the power sources and that since then they may have rethought the need for an Elemental source.
I was under the impression that the designers were activly attempting to REMOVE duality from the game. Positive/negative energy planes, distinct Elemental realms, Angels good/demons and devils bad all these things have been altered in 4e. (ok Demons and Devils are still bad, but they don't have their good incarnate opposition anymore.)
If anything, the cosmology lends itself more towards triads then dyads.
Astral Sea-World-Elemental Chaos (Divine-Primal-Elemental)
Feywild-World-Shadowfell
Body-Animus-Soul
Martial-Ki-Psionics (body-soul-mind?)
Elf-Eladrin-Drow
People here have mentioned classes with transmutation-focused powers, but again, this seems like something that the Arcane power source could supply.
Gah! Once again we fall back to the same problem. The Arcane power source is the worse defined source of all and a huge and annoyingly 'catch all' power source! I mean, ideally, each power source should have moments where they go 'Woah! I can't do that!' when seeing someone else in action...but it feels like the Arcane power source has a lot LESS of such moments than any other sources and causes it more often.
That power source got insane versatility and the Designers can shove anything they want in there with no concern to the other sources. If you ask me the current Sorcerer should have been Elemental, not Arcane!
Anyway...sure the Arcane source could do transmutation THEY CAN DO ANYTHING after all
but so far they haven't, or at least only in the form of a handful of polymorph spells no?If you ask me the current Sorcerer should have been Elemental, not Arcane!
And I was thinking it might be Primal, and maybe the Ranger should have been too, and call the 4th Ed Martial Ranger a Hunter?
I think the power source will be all about a creation/transmutation/destruction cycle and while I don't think we will see anything so obvious as classes devoted to a single element, I do think that the powers of these classes will be heavily influenced by the 4 standard elements and combinations based on them (Ice, Mud, Lava, Sand, etc.). I also think will see more chaos/wild magic type of characters or powers.
I was thinking it could be something where the element corresponds to the role. Like, a Fire-Based controller, an Earth-based Defender, a Water-based leader, and a Wind-based striker.
This is not Captain Planet. The concept of "I represent earth and can do some stuff that you would typically associate with that particular element" is nauseatingly lame.
Having the classes seperate from elemental type makes more sense than fixed element classes, simply because characters in a variable class can still become specialists. It just plain doesn't work the other way around.
I was under the impression that the designers were activly attempting to REMOVE duality from the game. Positive/negative energy planes, distinct Elemental realms, Angels good/demons and devils bad all these things have been altered in 4e. (ok Demons and Devils are still bad, but they don't have their good incarnate opposition anymore.)
So they claim.
If they are really trying to remove duality, then why did we go from a complex wheel of major planes that represented a variety of concepts and roles into the current setup that's shaped more like a Yin-Yang with only two major planes?
Take a look at the diagram of the multiverse from 3rd and then take a look at the multiverse from 4th and try to tell me that there is less duality in 4E.
Demon and Devils are still bad, but now they're not even in their own war, they're part of the same war that every divine or elemental creature is a part of.
Sure, you could make a Wind striker, but those kinds of archetypes get really, really narrow. A class is supposed to be broad, encompassing many different varieties of heroes. Pegging them down to a single element would be far too focused.
Meanwhile, there's more to the elements than the primary four.
If I had to pick a good example, I'd bring out the giants and the archons. Through all the editions, we've seen Death Titans, Stone Giants, Sand Giants, Archons of all size and shape and substance. Think of the golems, and all their forms and functions. Some of the most elemental of monsters have had great diversity, well beyond the four Grecian elements everyone thinks of.
I agree with the Transmutation idea. For controlling, that means shaping the battlefield with slime and sand, magma and metal. For others, it might mean transforming in a completely different manner than the primal shapechangers. Taking the elemental powers into their form could be potentially detrimental or corrupting, and a few paragon themes might deal with insanity or sacrifice as a result of this power. On the other hand, it could be a far more pure form of transforming, becoming the unfiltered elemental essence. It would be even more interesting for a leader class. If the artificer has covered the smith angle already, what else could a transmuter do to assist his party, and how long will it take before someone says "Well, they can't grapple the rogue if I set him on fire!"
My own use of the Elemental power source
I don't know if Wizards has the same idea I do, but in my homebrew(which uses almost all homebrew fluff mixed with my own ideas) uses Fire, Earth, Wind, Water and Chaos for the Elemental classes. With Fire and Wind both getting access to Lightning damage, and Chaos and Water both dealing untyped damage. ((Of course, in my world there's a whole continent in which the Primordials are revered and the Gods are considered destructive and taboo to worship... so yeah))
Not to sound petty, but I said it a few days ago in this thread so, myeh, myehmyehmyeh. :P
But seriously, it's good to see the idea's caught on.
To wit:
Ironblue's Awesome Ideas!
First of all, the possibility that Elemental will simply undergo a name and focus change. It becomes something else. The developers may very easily find that their initial hypothesis, which was to leave enough 'elemental design room' for a whole power source to complement arcane, didn't bear out, particularly after the sorcerer. However, I kinda like this idea: Elemental isn't actually about 'elements' as they are so commonly interpreted, which is fire/water/etc. Instead, the name Elemental references the word's actual definition, which is (from dictionary.com): 'a component or constituent of a whole'. Instead of fire or water, the elemental power source literally means drawing power from the fundamental elements of creation.
This includes concepts from 3.5's Tome of Magic, specifically the binder and truenamer's ability to shape themselves and the world around them with ineffable forces of creation. An elemental character would have the ability to warp terrain, objects, his weapons, and even his own body to fight. It's a niche of magic that has been overlooked so far, and seems unlikely to be covered in the other three confirmed power sources. Where an arcane character combines the elements of the world to produce an overtly magical effect, creating something new, the elementalist can only work with what he's given... Essentially, the transmuter's power source. It would require a new and rather refreshing focus on weapons and armor, firmly sharing that domain with the monopolistic martial characters. They can't lob a ball of fire, but they can make a bundle of arrows stand up and dance, a metal shield smother them like cloth, a longsword melt into quicksilver and grow any variety of wings, claws, or helpful other appendages. Just look at Tome of Magic's vestiges and truenaming magical effects for inspiration.
Anyway, it's just a thought.
This includes concepts from 3.5's Tome of Magic, specifically the binder and truenamer's ability to shape themselves and the world around them with ineffable forces of creation. An elemental character would have the ability to warp terrain, objects, his weapons, and even his own body to fight. It's a niche of magic that has been overlooked so far, and seems unlikely to be covered in the other three confirmed power sources. Where an arcane character combines the elements of the world to produce an overtly magical effect, creating something new, the elementalist can only work with what he's given... Essentially, the transmuter's power source. It would require a new and rather refreshing focus on weapons and armor, firmly sharing that domain with the monopolistic martial characters. They can't lob a ball of fire, but they can make a bundle of arrows stand up and dance, a metal shield smother them like cloth, a longsword melt into quicksilver and grow any variety of wings, claws, or helpful other appendages. Just look at Tome of Magic's vestiges and truenaming magical effects for inspiration.
Anyway, it's just a thought.
I agree with the Transmutation idea. For controlling, that means shaping the battlefield with slime and sand, magma and metal. For others, it might mean transforming in a completely different manner than the primal shapechangers. Taking the elemental powers into their form could be potentially detrimental or corrupting, and a few paragon themes might deal with insanity or sacrifice as a result of this power. On the other hand, it could be a far more pure form of transforming, becoming the unfiltered elemental essence. It would be even more interesting for a leader class. If the artificer has covered the smith angle already, what else could a transmuter do to assist his party, and how long will it take before someone says "Well, they can't grapple the rogue if I set him on fire!"
Ninjas can't catch you if you're on fire :P
I could also see a Leader granting a bloodied ally some sort of defensive buff by turning their BLOOD into something!
Fire can be Fire and Radiant
Air can be Lightning and Thunder
Water can be Acid and Cold
Earth doesn't need to worry, since it would all be physical damage.
And heck, Void could be psychic and necrotic (though I feel the psychic damage feat should be psychic and force for the psionic classes).
To all proponents of the transmutation thoery:
Not to sound petty, but I said it a few days ago in this thread so, myeh, myehmyehmyeh. :P
And I mentioned it over a month ago(I want to say Januaryish) so what's your point?:PBut darn gosh I'm gonna defend that idea like it was mine.
Both Arcane and Primal use the elements, so I suggest that the Elemental classes get used by the elements. They can summon fire, trigger rockslides, and geysers of steaming water, but they can't fully control it. Sometimes there is backspray, or the area of the burst is so large it's hard not to hit your allies. To use an analogy:
- Arcane characters place plastic explosives next to the generator and make it blow up.
- Primal characters use natural explosive materials to blow up the generator.
- Elemental classes break the safety controls of the generator and let it blow itself up.
But the Druid has some of that kind of thing covered mechanics wise; transformation powers like Insect Plague and Baleful Polymorph, terrain powers like Wall of Stone and Entangle. We would need to make the Transmuter stand apart from the Druid somehow without making them too Artificery.
- Arcane characters place plastic explosives next to the generator and make it blow up.
- Primal characters use natural explosive materials to blow up the generator.
- Elemental classes break the safety controls of the generator and let it blow itself up.
I approve.
Resistances aren't that big of an issue because 4E has already made associations with energy types based on the feats.
Fire can be Fire and Radiant
Air can be Lightning and Thunder
Water can be Acid and Cold
Earth doesn't need to worry, since it would all be physical damage.
And heck, Void could be psychic and necrotic (though I feel the psychic damage feat should be psychic and force for the psionic classes).
The single-element caster could be made into a Elemental source class, since making one with a Wizard or Sorcerer seems a bit clunky right now (though maybe that will change when Arcane Power comes out with additional spells).
Perhaps an elementalist or shugenja class will have the unique shtick of having a more mutable class role than some other classes. For instance, if the base role is Striker, then perhaps an Earth elementalist serves as a secondary defender, or a Water elementalist as a secondary leader. Fire and Air would be more "pure" strikers, with fire focusing on raw damage and air being the most mobile of the elementalist builds (with powers that let him transform into a whirlwind and shift away from enemies, or things like that).
I don't think this will work for every elemental class, though, and the transmutation idea seems like the most unique one so far. Conjuration is another idea, but between the Invoker, summoning Wizard builds, and Necromancer we'll already have plenty of summoners already.
Defender- Behemoth
You are the Hulk with an axe. You become like a giant or titan. Your reach increases and you gain threathening reach. You can toss enemies away from allies.
Controller- Elementalist
You know what this is.
Striker- Savage
You develop a wild and almost possessed mentality. You seek to destroy. The behemoth looks like the Hulk, you might act like the Joker. You just want to crush you enemies. Or you just might be insane.
Leader- ???
You got me there.
Leader- Creator
You embody part of the Primodials, the creative chaotic part that created the world in the first place. Using that power you create temporary shields, wards and respites for your allies.
Something like this?
Something like this?
Yeah something like that.
Primal Chaos and all, entropy is a good fit.
I hope that the source is based around the summoning and binding of elementals. Then we have the Conjourer summoning elemental allies, the Smith who binds elementals to his equipment (Heavy Armour Striker?), and the Binder who binds elementals to his flesh.
Thank you. You have produced something Heavy Armor that I can get behind. This is all something I'd see as very positive.
While it's evident and official that vestige-binding has become something for Warlocks, nothing indicates they actually polymorph depending on the vestige binded.
And I'm pretty sure that that niche will be the basis of the elemental Binder.
You know why I'm also so sure about the name? Look at the Demonbinder drow. I don't remember were we seen that thing, if in an adventure in Dungeon or some article in Dragon, but it really had this "class template feeling". I think it was a preview.
It basically had things like "bind the power of a Marilith and get 6 arms", and it was definitely a striker (could really do 6 attacks with that power).
I also think that Conjurer could be the name of the elemental controller, but we must not forget we also have a mention in the Ecology of Genasi article about "wizards" named sha'ir who "bound themselves to elemental beings with magic, bargaining with genies to gain the knowledge and wisdom those ancient elemental beings possessed."
I don't think sha'ir could ever be a name for a PhB class, but of course it could be the specific class for the eventual Al-Qadim (the setting from which these sha'ir were took from), if they ever make it an official setting.
Or it could be a paragon path for Conjurers or Binders.
Then you would also have dailies working on the same 'encounter long' principle, binding a specific elemental critter but of a higher order.
also, considering the Elementals we have, those higher level 'bind' would produce dual type damage! Imagine "Burning Storm Weapon" daily allowing you to inflict Fire Lightning damage or "Howling Blizzard Armor" inflicting Cold Thunder damage to all adjacen enemies.
We could get some really cool looking stuff.
At wills and encounters do random elemental damage types. Depending on your particular elemental class, you have a menu of elemental types, and each time you cast a At-Will or Encounter, you roll on that list, and that determines the damage type and keyword.
Dailies have a specific element type, and when you use one, it locks you into that type, while granting a bonus.
So, a daily for an Elemental Defender might be Flames of Might. Does 2[W] + stat mod damage, and has the Effect that you are channeling Elemental Fire. All your At-Will and Encounter powers do Fire damage, and do Ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).
Something like that.
He suggested classes similar to benders from the Avatar series: martial artists that learn to channel specific types of elements (earthbenders, airbenders, etc). I like this idea, especially since the monastic Githzerai live in the Elemental Chaos.