Wuxia
Ki-Blasts
"KiCarnum" (creating weapons/armor out of soul energy)
Controling the enemys Soul energy
Kill Bill Style death technique (5 steps and you are dead)
Infusing your Blade with elemental powers
Air Slashes with a blade
"Ninja Smoke Bomb escape" (could be Shadow too)
any other ideas ?
My idea is basically a class that is able to split off a portion of their soul to create a "pet". The portion they split off could represent anything from hidden desires, the mask that you use to hide your true self, a foreign entity that has fused with your soul, or even the personality of a past life(especially possible for a Deva). I see the class as being something is distincly different from all current classes and that would interesting to play as. It also seems to me like ti could make for some really interesting roleplay opportunities.
Infusing your Blade with elemental powers
Wouldn't this be oh I dunno.....elemental?An unarmored swordsman.
Possibly two monks, one with weapons and one without. I kind of hope they do this, just because unarmed combat maneuvers are unique enough to deserve the attention that a whole class grants, and there are enough monk weapons to justify their own class as well.
An unarmored swordsman.
Which one? the Swordmage or the Avenger?
Which one? the Swordmage or the Avenger?
Alright, an unarmored, non-explicitly-magical swordsman.
Alright, an unarmored, non-explicitly-magical swordsman.
Like the Avenger ?
Like the Avenger ?
The Avenger does an awful lot of teleporting, phasing, going invisible, and channeling and/or shooting magical energy at people to count as non magical.
The Avenger does an awful lot of teleporting, phasing, going invisible, and channeling and/or shooting magical energy at people to count as non magical.
And what would be a KiSword do, if not that ?
MARTIAL ARTS MOVIE.
Also:
High-flying somersault leaps.
Punchpunchpunchpunchpunch.
Not punches. Use the palm of your hand.
Float while in a position as a sort of charge. Think anime.
Do you get annoyed when movie/video game characters use "flashy" moves? Don't play a ki class.
Intimidate checks at the start of each encounter where people twirl daggers around their wrists at 500 rpm and whirl their swords in figure eights. They also assume ridiculous poses that they get out of when they charge the enemy.
50 attacks/round. Each is a minor action (3/round then.)
Controllers like to get in melee where they can perform flashy moves and take out 5 enemies with every attack. 25 with a daily power.
Think Aerialist Rogues from MP, but with light blue and/or fiery auras around their fists.
Three words.
MARTIAL ARTS MOVIE.
Also:
High-flying somersault leaps.
Punchpunchpunchpunchpunch.
Not punches. Use the palm of your hand.
Float while in a position as a sort of charge. Think anime.
Do you get annoyed when movie/video game characters use "flashy" moves? Don't play a ki class.
Intimidate checks at the start of each encounter where people twirl daggers around their wrists at 500 rpm and whirl their swords in figure eights. They also assume ridiculous poses that they get out of when they charge the enemy.
50 attacks/round. Each is a minor action (3/round then.)
Controllers like to get in melee where they can perform flashy moves and take out 5 enemies with every attack. 25 with a daily power.
Think Aerialist Rogues from MP, but with light blue and/or fiery auras around their fists.
Two more important words:
GAME BALANCE.
While I am going to assume your 'minor attacks' and 'taking out 5 enemies with every attack' and 'free intimidate' things were hyperbole, it is possible to make a ki class that is 'flashy' without making it 'stupid' (aka anime).
And yes, game balance is much more important.
Powers may include:
- Striking an enemy's pressure points (attacks that daze, stun, or immobilize enemies)
- Flying kicks (charge and/or shift several squares to kick an enemy in the face)
- Flurry attacks (attacks which hit enemies multiple times)
- Throwing enemies around (toss enemies several squares for extra damage)
- Meditating/channeling ki (to resist damage or gain extra +hit on a subsequent attack)
- Enveloping your fists in flame (fiery fists of doom!)
- Shooting ki blasts at an enemy (HADOUKEN!)
There won't be any DBZ-level powers that can blow up the moon or the planet (Most Epic-level powers of other sources can't really destroy a city by themselves). And this list is just for the monk, mind you.
Alright, an unarmored, non-explicitly-magical swordsman.
Like the rogue? Or the ranger? Or even a fighter?
*snip*
this is best idea, include in ki handbook plox
Hadouken!
A class that gets Ritual Casting for free.
A class that marks enemies.
A class that gives other characters the chance to use a healing surge a couple times per encounter.
Like the rogue? Or the ranger? Or even a fighter?
If you can't use the class to make Samurai Jack, it fails this particular archetype.
-A class that gets weapon proficiencies in many simple, martial and superior weapons such as the 3-piece rod, Whipping Chain, Rope dart, Monk's Spade, Butterfly Sword, Tiger-hook Sword, Wind Water Wheel and more.
-A class that gets the ability to inflict debilitating conditions based on build, rather than extra damage with combat advantage.
a controller/defender monk build that grapples and knocks prone enemies and makes them pay for trying to stand up or escape.
a truenamer some sort.
1. Go invisible for short durations, though hide in plain sight is similar (even under full light situations)
2. Cause sleep like the spell (to guard dogs and humanoid guards)
3. Split into two beings, though only one is active (infiltrating or spying) while the other sits or stands in "wait mode". (Observed to be at one place while doing something else elsewhere.)
4. Extend senses (hear distant noises to identify source, know where guards are at, etc.)
GP
If you can't use the class to make Samurai Jack, it fails this particular archetype.
I checked youtube on him an all he did seemed to be Martial. Aeralist Rouge MC Ranger/Warrior seems to be the way to build him. Nothing really spectacular on him.
I checked youtube on him an all he did seemed to be Martial. Aeralist Rouge MC Ranger/Warrior seems to be the way to build him. He's unbelievable awesome though.
Fixed it for you. I agree though. Jack's probably a high paragon/low epic Aerlist Rogue though I think his MC is Paladin.
Possibly two monks, one with weapons and one without. I kind of hope they do this, just because unarmed combat maneuvers are unique enough to deserve the attention that a whole class grants, and there are enough monk weapons to justify their own class as well.
I agree. I'd like to see this, too.
Wire-fu: Fly 10 squares & land.
Samurai surrounded!: Attack each target adjacent to you.
Airstrike: Your melee weapon or unarmedness attacks as Ranged 5.
Chanbara rush: You move in a straight line, provoking no OAs. Make one attack against each target adjacent to that line.
You'll be dead 10 times before you touch the ground: For every 2 points you exceed the target's defense, deal 1[W] more damage.
Too fast!: Shift your speed.
Phoenix palm: Take ongoing fire damage from that unarmed attack.
Climhazard: Fly 5 ft & land adjacent to target, dealing big damage.
Flurry: Close blast.
Renewal: Perform second wind & heal double. (Bonus if you flashback to an inspiring speech.)
Bunshin: Create minion doubles of yourself; when you move, they can move, but only one attacks per turn. They can make OAs.
Iaijustu: If you have not yet taken a turn this encounter, auto-crit. this attack.
Throwdown: You knock the target prone, +2 to attack during the breakdown, ignores concealment.
Two-Step Punch: You remain in your position if pushed, pulled or slid.
Hardcore Spin-Kick: Close Burst 1, and targets don't benefit from concealment.
Windmill: Close Burst 1, and targets are pushed.
Picking Up Change: If you miss you gain 1d4 gold pieces.
Hardcore Dancing: You get 2 unarmed attacks.
Throwing the Monkey Off Your Back: Ranged 10, you summon a 1 hp monkey minion.
You guys are kidding, right?
Bel
At-will melee 1
minor action
STR+2 vs AC
hit: d6 damage
(2d6 at lvl 21)
Ki Controller = Incarnate. Uses soulstuff to form a physical object like a soulknife, but with a fantastic bent. He then uses this object to make Area and Close burst attacks.
See Here (3:48 till 4:12 and 5:58 till 7:10)
Also Here (2:10 till 2:44)
What, seriously? Nah...
You guys are kidding, right?
Bel
Of course I'm quite serious, those Invisible Ninjas need to get beaten up every time they're near a mosh pit. Many of those powers in action, which are used to fight invisible ninjas are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiv95j-tEIM
Of course I'm quite serious, those Invisible Ninjas need to get beaten up every time they're near a mosh pit. Many of those powers in action, which are used to fight invisible ninjas are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiv95j-tEIM
I have no words...
Bel
If you can't use the class to make Samurai Jack, it fails this particular archetype.
No one class could capture Jack; he's trained in all forms of combat, he's both a striker and a defender, he can channel the power of his ancestors into his sword, he wears no armor most of the time yet is almost never injured, he can command troops as well, he's also a powerful martial artist and can defect attacks with his sword.
Do you think they should make a class that can do what 4 other classes can do?
No one class could capture Jack; he's trained in all forms of combat, he's both a striker and a defender, he can channel the power of his ancestors into his sword, he wears no armor most of the time yet is almost never injured, he can command troops as well, he's also a powerful martial artist and can defect attacks with his sword.
Do you think they should make a class that can do what 4 other classes can do?
With how you describe Samurai Jack, what with the sword and all, *I* would create him as a warlord, multi-classed into swordmage. The swordmage is ONLY because of the channeling of his ancestors into the sword. Though this could be accomplished with an artifact weapon, in which you just substitute swordmage for fighter multi-class and your done.
Samurai Jack just has LOTS of healing surges, that's why he's never wounded. He's either built up a high dex or intelligence (or both) and only wears cloth armour. Easy enough to make a high AC fighter only wearing cloth. Trust me, I've done it.
Nothing about him seems to be screaming powers that come from the soul.
Now, as to a class that can do the things that 4 other classes do. They've done this already. It's called the bard, what with their ability to multiclass into several different classes.
No one class could capture Jack; he's trained in all forms of combat, he's both a striker and a defender, he can channel the power of his ancestors into his sword, he wears no armor most of the time yet is almost never injured, he can command troops as well, he's also a powerful martial artist and can defect attacks with his sword.
Do you think they should make a class that can do what 4 other classes can do?
Seeing that description makes me think he's a super-optimized Avenger with an artifact sword.
Which unfortunately leads to complaints like McNancy's- "You want to create the UBER CLASS! Oh no!"
No, I don't. Also, we've heard this argument before, just about every single time someone suggests creating a class that better matches something from an area of fantasy the game doesn't do well. Its always worse with anything that even touches on asian originated fantasy. People come along, proclaim that an unarmored guy with a katana who gets his powers from meditation and practice is really just a rogue or fighter or something. It doesn't even get the weapon or armor options correct. Its not far from proclaiming that we don't need a rogue, because a fighter is close enough.
I simply think that the game could benefit from an unarmored swordsman archetype that borrowed from characters like Samurai Jack and the myriad other wandering swordsmen of asian fantasy. If nothing else, the game doesn't support unarmored characters unless they're spellcasters, and it doesn't support lightly armored swordsmen unless they're rapier wielders or barbarians.
It would be nice if it did.
And that's before even getting into the idea of coming up with an interesting mechanic to create a feel based on meditation or inner peace leading to martial prowess, adding in something like a (mythological, not real) form of iajutsu, or coming up with a coherent explanation of what "ki" is and how its use should affect a character class. I think there's a lot of room there for an interesting class that does something genuinely new.
If we were to add yet another lightly armored warrior, it would have to be something mechanically distinct from all of these guys.
Lightly armored defender's already done, swift striking is taken care of by massive weapon damage, rapid motion's covered by the avenger's teleporting with a quick reflavor, and one handers are the swordmage's bread and butter. What's left?
Look, I'm not trying to convince you to be a fan of the asian wandering swordsman/ronin shtick. But at least when I ask for Li Mu-Bai don't try to sell me an Avenger. The Avenger is a fine class, but seriously. Give me a break here.
The sales pitch has that vaguely demeaning feel to it, like being taken back in time to when you asked Santa for an Optimus Prime and he got you Sunstorm instead and you were really upset and your Mom yelled at you and told you it was the same thing anyways but you knew it wasn't and she'd know that too if she knew anything at all about Transformers...
...right.
If D&D were a different sort of game, one where there were only a handful of classes and everything was relatively generic, then maybe I'd buy your argument. If it were the sort of game where the Monk didn't need to exist because you could just retheme a ranger, or where the Swordmage was never written because wizards and fighters can multiclass, or where we all just admitted that the bard's got no reason to live... or heck, where people stopped trying to pretend that the gnome contributes something unique to the game, then maybe. But we don't live in that universe.
If Ninjas, or something similar, are in PH3, they might have powers that allow them to go invisible as part on an encounter or daily power in order to launch devastating attacks. If Samurai are in PH 3, they might be a Ki powered "Swordmage" with an Eastern flavor with powers unique to that class. Wujen might make their comeback as Ki powered controllers. Finally, Shukenja could be a Ki powered healer.
Anyway, I look forward to PH3.
With how you describe Samurai Jack, what with the sword and all, *I* would create him as a warlord, multi-classed into swordmage. The swordmage is ONLY because of the channeling of his ancestors into the sword. Though this could be accomplished with an artifact weapon, in which you just substitute swordmage for fighter multi-class and your done.
Samurai Jack just has LOTS of healing surges, that's why he's never wounded. He's either built up a high dex or intelligence (or both) and only wears cloth armour. Easy enough to make a high AC fighter only wearing cloth. Trust me, I've done it.
I've seen every episode, and I think the class that comes closest to Jack is Barbarian:
A lot of Jack's power comes from his own drive, he gets really emotional and intense when he fights, he can ignore any amount of pain, he can call apon and sense "spirits", he can take on mass numbers of minions
You would then need to dualclass into monk for cloth armor, jumping good, deflection and martial arts, and if you could somehow take Kensai PP and the Martial Archetype ED you would pretty much have him.
Setting Sun style
Maybe a Monk thing maybe some other class
Monks could have energy attacks, why not
A Ki caster type would float, floating is very Ki
A class that can turn into or mimic monsters would be cool, like the Totemist
Energy weapons may be Ki now, afterall the class was called "Soul"knife
Bel
"Shugenja," also called "yamabushi" ("one who lies in the mountains"; "bushi" here is not "warrior": different "spelling"), were mountain ascetics, often attributed with great fortitude & mystical powers of the enlightened persuasion. They might well be in, but I don't know what they'd do.
Look, I'm not trying to convince you to be a fan of the asian wandering swordsman/ronin shtick. But at least when I ask for Li Mu-Bai don't try to sell me an Avenger. The Avenger is a fine class, but seriously. Give me a break here.
Can't pull the wool over your eyes.
The sales pitch has that vaguely demeaning feel to it, like being taken back in time to when you asked Santa for an Optimus Prime and he got you Sunstorm instead and you were really upset and your Mom yelled at you and told you it was the same thing anyways but you knew it wasn't and she'd know that too if she knew anything at all about Transformers...
...right.
You realize that that's the kind of thing people look back on and are embarrassed about, right? Like, how young kids torment their parents by never thinking their contributions are enough, even if that parent waited in the rain for 18 hours for get you Sunstorm so they could put a smile on your face?
If D&D were a different sort of game, one where there were only a handful of classes and everything was relatively generic, then maybe I'd buy your argument. If it were the sort of game where the Monk didn't need to exist because you could just retheme a ranger, or where the Swordmage was never written because wizards and fighters can multiclass, or where we all just admitted that the bard's got no reason to live... or heck, where people stopped trying to pretend that the gnome contributes something unique to the game, then maybe. But we don't live in that universe.
While we're at it, we should make Swashbuckler a class, too.
The question is where you draw the line. Another unarmored swordsman? Really?
I laughed at all of the quoted segments a lot.
Shugenja," also called "yamabushi" ("one who lies in the mountains"; "bushi" here is not "warrior": different "spelling"), were mountain ascetics, often attributed with great fortitude & mystical powers of the enlightened persuasion. They might well be in, but I don't know what they'd do.
Sorry to single you out but this kinda thing is really getting on my nerves; you don't know what they would do but because they have an asian name they could be a Ki class?
Where exactly in D&D history did Shugenjas have anything to do with Ki, the same goes for Ninja and Wu Jen, I don't recall they ever did, at least not in the past decade, yet for some reason people keep thinking they should be Ki classes.
IMHO I hate the idea of any class having a non-americanized name, it's not like the english language doesn't have enough words. I like english words for my class names because as an english speaking american I can make those words mean whatever I want them to.
You realize that that's the kind of thing people look back on and are embarrassed about, right? Like, how young kids torment their parents by never thinking their contributions are enough, even if that parent waited in the rain for 18 hours for get you Sunstorm so they could put a smile on your face?
That will teach me to try to make jokes.
Mcnancy: Someone mentioned "shukenja" (a 1e D&D class) previously in this thread; I was just replying. Monk & yamabushi could very well be different branches of the same path; all the shugenja-like characters I've seen in books (& the actual ones of which I've read) are much more ascetic warriors (or just ascetics) than spellcasters, that's why I said that I don't know what they'd do if they were their own class. I know you aren't mad at me personally.
As for Ki: yes, different Ninja classes (Japanese word) across editions have used it, along with other 3e classes such as the Master Samurai (Japanese word), Red Avenger (if I got that name right), & Monk. Wu Jen? 'Tis a made-up name as far as I know for perhaps a Daoist Wizard/Mystic/Geomancer. They observe Ki flow & the environment, so they could also be Elemental. Ki isn't the Asian powersource, I agree, but being an Asian concept, it would not surprise me if all its classes were also Asian (as with the Arcane powersource & Europe).
I understand your desire for generics (especially when classes like the Paladin & Barbarian vary from their original Earth namesakes), but are we going to call the wuxia fighter "acrobatic warrior" or some mouthful when it is based on a particular named archetype, the Chinese "wuxia" being the most well-known term in the US? If it were an archetype more culturally general, like the idea of the Shaman or Fighter, then a more general (probably English) name would fit, I agree.
Look at some past D&D classes; there are more than a few non-English (some even made-up) & some in English that are very generic-sounding &/or seem to overlap with others in the same edition (Elementalist/Elemental Mage, Temporal Champion/Temporal Raider). It is what it is.
Look at some past D&D classes; there are more than a few non-English (some even made-up) & some in English that are very generic-sounding &/or seem to overlap with others in the same edition (Elementalist/Elemental Mage, Temporal Champion/Temporal Raider). It is what it is.
Yes Ninja and Samurai are japanese, but over time they have become english words as well, I could use either one in Scrabble; I still think they have a bit of cultural baggage but not as much as the others. The other asian named classes I never even considered playing, they all seemed like if your concept was not in their little asian flavor mold then you might as well be playing a different class.
I like generic names, they don't get in the way of character concepts, they're so meaningless that I can just ignore them and not feel like I need to change the name to have a unique kind of character; There are no preconcieved notions when you hear names like Adjudicator, Shaper ,Avatar or Incarnate.
Monk & yamabushi could very well be different branches of the same path; all the shugenja-like characters I've seen in books
Actually, the word "shugenja" means a follower of Shugendo, like a Buddhist is a follower of Buddhism, or a Christian is a follower of Christianity. Shugenja does not a describe a job or player class, rather a religious affinity only (mistake made by G.Gygax that is carried on through all the editions and AEG too.)
Yamabushi on the other hand is a mountain ascetic, with access to divine and elemental powers. Though a yamabushi is a follower of Shugendo, thus can be called a Shugenja, a Shugenja is not necessarily a Yamabushi. Any peasant farmer can be a Shugenja, and not have spell casting powers at all, as any other "0" level character.
If you're going to use an Asian name to describe a player class, use proper one.
I have to agree with those who don't care for English names to describe everything, as there aren't single English words that describe everything. You end up needing a mouthful of English words to even hint at a Samurai or Ninja class.
GP
Energy weapons sounds psionic to me, or the Force.
Arcane Power has actually given Swordmages a Force Choke power.
The difficulty I see in guessing what the new classes will be like is that, from preconceptions, the fluff of the ki power source matches the force, but the mechanics of the force match the psionic power source. My simple mind sometimes has difficulties separating fluff and mechanics.
The best thing I have right now is an idea for a leader. I'd like to see a leader that generates auras. The problem with this is that it might bring back the walking first-aid kit feel felt in previous editions. To keep this leader from feeling like he just heals and buffs and watches from the sidelines, his auras could come from the attacks. The problem with this is that it sounds a little like a reflavoured laser cleric. So, maybe my creativity is broken, but it might be able to be done different enough to make a new class.
Anyway, I think the ki power source has great potential for introducing entirely new classes and concepts. I can't wait to see what they'll do and I'll probably keep trying to guess.
You end up needing a mouthful of English words to even hint at a Samurai or Ninja class.
That statement implies that those classes have a specific identity that must be adhered to, which is exactly what I don't like about eastern named classes. "Hint" is exactly what the name of the class should do, you shouldn't have to live up to the name of your class.
The best thing I have right now is an idea for a leader. I'd like to see a leader that generates auras. The problem with this is that it might bring back the walking first-aid kit feel felt in previous editions. To keep this leader from feeling like he just heals and buffs and watches from the sidelines, his auras could come from the attacks. The problem with this is that it sounds a little like a reflavoured laser cleric. So, maybe my creativity is broken, but it might be able to be done different enough to make a new class.
That's a cool idea.
Maybe the class has a simple aura going at all the time, but it's attacks make the aura do different things, encounter causes one time or instant effects on allies or enemies and dailies cause encounter long or save-ends effects.
That statement implies that those classes have a specific identity that must be adhered to, which is exactly what I don't like about eastern named classes. "Hint" is exactly what the name of the class should do, you shouldn't have to live up to the name of your class.
Truly the "samurai" does not have a specific identity to be adhered. Samurai is really an umbrella term, that covers many things. There is some commonality among what is samurai, which is: ancestral sword bearer, whose primary duty is to serve a noble lord with Ki powers in addition to martial combat skills, with some courtly skills of ettiquete.
Most samurai fought as mounted warriors. Early on say 10th century, samurai were first master archers before swordsmen. Using the Daikyu long composite bow, they were known for renowned accuracy at great distance. Once in close range, charges using the katana which was initially a cavalryman's weapon, as the curved blace can attest.
After 2e, the Daikyu as a samurai weapon fell out of existence for some reason.
The samurai swords (daisho) of katana and wakizashi, become intrinsically tied to samurai, about 1500 and afterwards. Calling samurai "sword warriors" is only a very late understanding of them.
Though honor is at the core of a samurai, what comprised honor, isn't a hard code, like professed by L5R. Many samurai performed guerilla war tactics, and operations that one might normally attribute to a ninja - in the service to his lord.
Some samurai served as lesser bureaucrats, members of the Imperial Court, tax collectors/census takers, wardens of the forests. While many greater samurai were land owners, owing an annual rice tax, sometimes directly involved in the farming trade and practice. Some samurai were castle holders, a lesser fortified fief to a greater noble lord.
Also since samurai were the only caste in Japan allowed to openly carry weapons, any job requiring a ready sword involved samurai. From noble house retainers, city guard officers and the local police, to all military posts in the officer corps, many ship's captains and onboard marines were samurai, and ronin served as the martial arm to the Yakuza in the Floating World districts of Japanese cities. Does all that fit into a "specific identity"?
Despite carrying the title "honorless", a ronin, who does not serve a lord is still a samurai.
Does all that above insinuate a specific identity, or more an Eastern warrior with skills beyond martial ones. It certainly has some identity, but no more than a "knight" or "swordmage".
I don't think my statement, implied anything of the sort - that's just how you read it, I suppose.
GP
PS: so you can see, it took a mouthful of English words to describe a "samurai".
Truly the "samurai" does not have a specific identity to be adhered. Samurai is really an umbrella term, that covers many things. There is some commonality among what is samurai, which is: ancestral sword bearer, whose primary duty is to serve a noble lord with Ki powers in addition to martial combat skills, with some courtly skills of ettiquete.
So then if there is so little to being a samurai, a class called Warsage or something like that would cover the concept while not invoking cultural preconceptions and allow players to visualize them as something other than asian.
So then if there is so little to being a samurai, a class called Warsage or something like that would cover the concept while not invoking cultural preconceptions and allow players to visualize them as something other than asian.
Mcnancy by only changing 3 words in your post I can show how fragile your position is due to preexisting concepts.
Samurai -> Paladin
Warsage -> Holywarrior
Asian -> European
Doesn't your position sound a little silly right now?
Mcnancy by only changing 3 words in your post I can show how fragile your position is due to preexisting concepts.
Samurai -> Paladin
Warsage -> Holywarrior
Asian -> European
Your doesn't position sound a little silly right now?
Exactly!
What does "sword sage" even mean. I don't think it implies anything at all. Samurai at least has meaning.
Besides, being an Eastern warrior bound by honor and service to a lord or cause with ancestral weapons and Ki power, isn't that specific enough to consider samurai its own class, that "sword sage" or whatever doesn't really fit as a better name to describe that. Yet samurai is still not so specific to only mean one thing. I think you (McNancy) counter your own argument, and completely justify mine.
Thank you!
GP
Your doesn't position sound a little silly right now?
No, because I don't live in asia, because I don't speak Japanese, my characters don't speak japanese.
Also Samurai and Paladin are not the same in terms of their name's meaning in D&D terms. The Paladin doesn't require europe or a history lesson to understand it, It's been in D&D so long that the meaning of the word is now very different to us players; So I suppose given enough time the meaning of the word Samurai could be mutated the same way until it has such vague meaning that we don't have the preconceptions about it anymore.
What does "sword sage" even mean. I don't think it implies anything at all. Samurai at least has meaning.
It means whatever the player making the character wants it to mean. The problem is just how much meaning the word Samurai has.
No, because I don't live in asia, because I don't speak Japanese, my characters don't speak japanese.
What do any of these things have to do with playing a character in a fantasy world with the game class of Samurai?
Also Samurai and Paladin are not the same in terms of their name's meaning in D&D terms. The Paladin doesn't require europe or a history lesson to understand it, It's been in D&D so long that the meaning of the word is now very different to us players; So I suppose given enough time the meaning of the word Samurai could be mutated the same way until it has such vague meaning that we don't have the preconceptions about it anymore.
So Paladin is okay right now because it has traction and history, but the Samurai doesn't so it isn't.:rolleye2: Right...
A Samurai class is no more in need of its real world history or lands of origin as the Paladin, Druid, Bard, Shaman or Ranger.
It means whatever the player making the character wants it to mean. The problem is just how much meaning the word Samurai has.
There are 2 definitions of Samurai that are being used in this conversation, but only one of them is applicable to D&D as a game. They are the real world definition and the fantasy definition:
Real world definition:
Samurai (n) - Member of the Japanese warrior caste.
Fantasy definition:
Samurai (n) - Pseudo-magical warriors who have developed their powers by meditation and physical training.
You seem to completely focused on the the real world definition and are ignoring the fantasy definition.
First you argue Samurai are too specific, then too general. You say you don't speak Japanese, but you seem to be able to spell the word correctly and have some loose idea of what it is. For a non-Japanese person, you seem pretty familiar with this "alien idea".
Ask anyone what a Paladin looks like, 95% will tell you its a holy knight in shining armor with long sword or great sword. That's sounds extremely specific and extremely European. Not everybody is European descended. How is a Paladin, general enough not to slot a PC in a specific limitation, that a Samurai does so? Your examples are quite contradictory to your arguments.
The problem with coming up with terms so general as to not have meaning at all like "Sword Sage" - sounds to my like some "sage" whose expertise is metallurgy and swordcraft. He could identify the maker and who uses that type of weapon. But that's some NPC my character would pay to get lore from his sword, not to actually play as a class.
You spend more time trying to explain what a given class is supposed to apply to that a somewhat more specific term, "samurai" needs no more than a sentence, if that.
Maybe they should stick with fighter, rogue, wizard, priest and say that any extrapolation of a class is just one of those, then you wouldn't have to worry if he's called a samurai or sword bunny.
Its because the developers want more variety and that's why a samurai and ninja should be given serious consideration. They got the monk - and if you read that classes description, it doesn't sound very European to me, why would they include an "Asian" sounding class unless those cultures are viable parts of the game? Because they are a part of the game.
You don't like "Asian", that's fine, doesn't mean the game needs to be as equally European biased or other single ethnic point of view, to limit itself to your kind of limited thinking. Variety is good.
GP
Ki is dead. Monk is Psionic. So this discussion is somewhat meaningless now. Silly WotC, pulling a whamey out like that!
Well, it's not that much of a whamey :P
Wizards haven't said all THAT much about the new power sources. A bit, sure. But most of what you see on the forums is pretty much just people just proferring their opinions. Wizards latest move reminds us what opinions are worth :D
By the way, I love the revelations about the monk class. I never liked the idea of specificially asian classes. Monks are awesome but there's no need to have a "european knight" class seperate from an "asian knight". Also, a monk's ki really isn't all that distinct from the psionic source anyway. I find myself totally agreeing with Wizards on this one :P
Fantasy definition:
Samurai (n) - Pseudo-magical warriors who have developed their powers by meditation and physical training.
Sounds like a Psychic Warrior to me. :fight!:
Mcnancy by only changing 3 words in your post I can show how fragile your position is due to preexisting concepts.
Samurai -> Paladin
Warsage -> Holywarrior
Asian -> European
Doesn't your position sound a little silly right now?
Dang. I came into this discussion late and thought you were just pointing out how a Samurai is just the Asian version of the Paladin.
My biggest problem with Samurai in d&d is that more than any other class, Samurai has just been OA's version of Fighter. Ninja had a few things to distinguish themselves from Rogues (although many of those things have been absorbed into 4e's Rogue). Wu jen had enough distinguishing characteristics separating them from Wizards that they're still a viable class.
But Samurai had very little to begin with. 3.x did almost nothing to further distinguish them from the fighter. They were just Fighters that specialized in two weapon fighting and had rules to allow you to upgrade weapons instead of replacing.
If Ki is truly dead and Ki replaced by Psionics, I guess I will be considering older Editions or a different game system altogether. I've always considered Psionics optional, and Ki core. As a DM, I've never allowed Psionics. If Wizards is killing Ki and making it Psionics, I guess its time to look at 3e again as a base system to work with - since I can't agree with that at all.
I hope that is only a bad guess on someone's part, because that doesn't make any sense to me at all. Wizards can't be that stupid.
GP
I hope that is only a bad guess on someone's part, because that doesn't make any sense to me at all. Wizards can't be that stupid.
GP
See my reply to you in another thread. Reading this post of yours confuses me even more, though. Going back to 3e? I can't help but get the impression that you were never onboard with the 4e design philosophy to begin with... :P
While I do see samurai as something more than that, I can agree with that sentiment, however - more so than, McNancy's idea.
If Ki is truly dead and Ki replaced by Psionics, I guess I will be considering older Editions or a different game system altogether. I've always considered Psionics optional, and Ki core. As a DM, I've never allowed Psionics. If Wizards is killing Ki and making it Psionics, I guess its time to look at 3e again as a base system to work with - since I can't agree with that at all.
I hope that is only a bad guess on someone's part, because that doesn't make any sense to me at all. Wizards can't be that stupid.
GP
Well, considering that Ki has always sorta been the catch-all for Asian themed classes and they'd make more sense in other power sources (such as the frequently brought up theory that Ninja will be Shadow) this shouldn't come as a surprise. Swear off the game if you like, but may I recommend you look at the monk first. This isn't a 3.5 Psionic character with crazy energy powers and Jedi Mind Tricks. It plays just as the Monk would if there were a Ki power source only replace the word "ki" with "Psionic". It makes sense too. Psionics = Focusing your mind and body into a weapon. Monk = Focusing your mind and body into a weapon. In the past the Monk was Ki because it was Asian, like a whole host of Asian-themed classes. Monk has more in common with the Soulknife than the Samurai.
As for what you consider core. It's your home game. If Monks use Ki and there are no other Psionic classes, then that's good for you. As for me, I like the new Monk as much as the old one. It looks cool, but its not my cup of tea.
Well, considering that Ki has always sorta been the catch-all for Asian themed classes and they'd make more sense in other power sources (such as the frequently brought up theory that Ninja will be Shadow) this shouldn't come as a surprise. Swear off the game if you like, but may I recommend you look at the monk first. This isn't a 3.5 Psionic character with crazy energy powers and Jedi Mind Tricks. It plays just as the Monk would if there were a Ki power source only replace the word "ki" with "Psionic". It makes sense too. Psionics = Focusing your mind and body into a weapon. Monk = Focusing your mind and body into a weapon. In the past the Monk was Ki because it was Asian, like a whole host of Asian-themed classes. Monk has more in common with the Soulknife than the Samurai.
As for what you consider core. It's your home game. If Monks use Ki and there are no other Psionic classes, then that's good for you. As for me, I like the new Monk as much as the old one. It looks cool, but its not my cup of tea.
Well said. Simply because they're taking away Ki as a power source does not mean they are genociding all things asian in DnD. In fact, I think this change makes an OA setting more tenable, because it provides more variety and freedom in developing options and classes.
Well said. Simply because they're taking away Ki as a power source does not mean they are genociding all things asian in DnD. In fact, I think this change makes an OA setting more tenable, because it provides more variety and freedom in developing options and classes.
It doesn't necessarily mean that, but when you've got a monk who isn't proficient with nunchakus because they don't even exist, it kind of makes you wonder.
The solution to the concern about ki becoming "the asian power source" is not to delete everything asian from the game.
It doesn't necessarily mean that, but when you've got a monk who isn't proficient with nunchakus because they don't even exist, it kind of makes you wonder.
The solution to the concern about ki becoming "the asian power source" is not to delete everything asian from the game.
The reason for the exclusion of asian themed items it because the source setting, PoL, is traditional euro-fantasy.
It doesn't necessarily mean that, but when you've got a monk who isn't proficient with nunchakus because they don't even exist, it kind of makes you wonder.
The solution to the concern about ki becoming "the asian power source" is not to delete everything asian from the game.
Keep this in mind
1) It's a playtest, so the weapons are from the list that currently exists.
2) Wouldn't be surprised to see nunchakus as an option in Adventurer's Vault 2 or even PHB3.
3) I don't think they're trying to keep out asian materials. Rogues using shuriken seems inspired by Ninja. I don't remember any European swashbucklers using them.
I think that the exclusion of a Ki power source does not mean they are cutting out all Asian themed options. Heck, Oni is in the first monster manual. It's not that hard to run an oriental adventures type game with only a slight bit of creativity.
I think that the exclusion of a Ki power source does not mean they are cutting out all Asian themed options.
Of course it doesn't. Didn't you people read the design&development article? It explicitly names other "asian" classes/themes that are under development, and goes on to state that they have all found better homes then the hard-to-justify ki source.
Samurai are warlords, fighters, paladins, etc. Primal fits really well with the wild spirits of nature. You can easily reflavour any of the classes to fit into OA. Shugenja, Ninja, Monk, and Wu Jen are important because they're unique class ideas that can be ported and moved around. These classes will probably be seen more oft in OA games, but they should, in theory, fit in any setting and game. That's why, based off the DesDev article, it looks to me like Ninja are these "True Assassins" for Shadow; and the Shugenja and Wu Jen will be half of Elemental, which is still an unknown for now, and many, with the axing of Ki, seem to think it's going to go as well.
Whereas Ki is a belief that is thousands of years old.
Why axe a historically referenceable power source with a completely artificial one. That is what I find to be completely stupid.
But know this, I am not upset with their decision. I am currently developing a Japan based setting intended for use in Pathfinder. I've been following these boards trying to get ideas from players moreso, than who WotC intended to pursue matters. If WotC axes Ki altogether, though it means more work for me, it gives me complete freedom. My goal was not to step on WotC's IP, by developing Ki, which they axed, now I don't have to worry about that at all.
Because OA 3e and Rokugan d20 are not open source, I could never use those for reference - I had to develop my own system. Now WotC has given me complete freedom with their (frankly stupid) decision, so I thank them!
GP
GP
I love Ninjas and Samurai just as much as the next guy.
I'm all for asian stuff, what I'm not for is asian names; asian names force apon players asian preconceptions, western preconceptions are easier to ignore because we(or at least I) live in a western culture.
I want Ninjas, I want Samurai, but I don't want those to be the names of the classes.
Just like how we all like Ki but are willing have it under a different name (psionics).
I don't have any problem with asian characters, asian themed mechanics, asian settings and/or regions or even asian classes.
I love Ninjas and Samurai just as much as the next guy.
I'm all for asian stuff, what I'm not for is asian names; asian names force apon players asian preconceptions, western preconceptions are easier to ignore because we(or at least I) live in a western culture.
I want Ninjas, I want Samurai, but I don't want those to be the names of the classes.
Just like how we all like Ki but are willing have it under a different name (psionics).
Actually, I almost completely agree with everything you said above, except for my feelings on psionics.
But, and this really only applies directly in my case, not the general 4e fanbase. I'm working on a specifically feudal Japan-based setting and series of adventure arcs. Not a general oriental setting, a Japan-based setting, in a fictional Empire called Kaidan. I'm using actual Japanese history, legend, folklore, ghost and horror stories, gaming it up for D&D play with lots of maps, illustrations and creating coherent campaign storyline from 1st to 20th level.
So after months of time investment, research, writing and editing one of the "key" aspects of my setting revolves around Ki powers, with some mechanics built in, not just a fluff source of arcane power, is turned on its head, with the announcement that Ki is actually psionics.
I find it very frustrating and disappointing. Can I fix my setting for that monkey wrench in my plans, sure with lots of rewriting, rework and re-editing, but its seems like an unnecessary work, and what seems like a broken promise (I know they didn't "promise" me Ki, but the hints were enough to start my own development). Plus even using psionics in my setting somehow takes some flavor out of it, and lessening it somehow.
Plus, I've NEVER been a fan of psionics in D&D of its own accord, having nothing to do Ki or anything else. The idea of mental powers is worthwhile to the game, just the actuation of it never worked, and always broken to system from 1e to 3e. Since psionics is just showing up in 4e PH3, I've got some taint issues regarding psionics, so I'm definitely not optimistic of it working this time.
Taking something I love and replacing it with a concept that I personally detest, just set off my rant nerve.
Sorry.
GP
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!
NOTHING will be in the Ki power source!
/CLOSE THREAD!
Nothing!
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!
NOTHING will be in the Ki power source!
/CLOSE THREAD!
Not in 4e perhaps, but there's always Pathfinder (too much work to fix it I think)
GP
I don't have any problem with asian characters, asian themed mechanics, asian settings and/or regions or even asian classes.
I love Ninjas and Samurai just as much as the next guy.
I'm all for asian stuff, what I'm not for is asian names; asian names force apon players asian preconceptions, western preconceptions are easier to ignore because we(or at least I) live in a western culture.
I want Ninjas, I want Samurai, but I don't want those to be the names of the classes.
Just like how we all like Ki but are willing have it under a different name (psionics).
Samurai are basically warlords, yes.
But ninjas . . . I don't really see an equivalent in western cultures. I mean, you can have Assassins, but even in most western cultures Assassins aren't really associated with mystical abilities like ninjas are. I guess you could mix a Rogue with one of the magical classes and dual class, but that would still kind of feel off to me. An Assassin would be a stealth-based striker.
A Ninja would probably be a stealth based striker with some genuinely supernatural illusion and long-range elemental effect abilities, if you wanted to go by the fantasy definition instead of the reality of what they were (and if we did that, Paladins would just be big dudes in armor).
The one class we know for sure will be in the Ki source is the Monk.
*Heh*.
Taking something I love and replacing it with a concept that I personally detest, just set off my rant nerve.
My suggestion to you and others having this problems is this; forget everything you ever knew about Psionics, the Monk is the first of Psionics in 4E that anyone has seen so far, and if you are making a setting for 4E, then don't get hung up on what Psionic was in past editions.
From Monk: "Power Source: Psionic. Your intense focus,
constant training, and exceptional talent combine
to allow you to harness the psionic power within
yourself."
I would take another look at the Monk playtest's fluff, forget about what Psionics were and begin to open your mind to what Psionics could be in this great new edition of D&D.
In 4E, Psionics could be a lot more like Ki than it is like the old Psionics.
But ninjas . . . I don't really see an equivalent in western cultures. I mean, you can have Assassins, but even in most western cultures Assassins aren't really associated with mystical abilities like ninjas are. I guess you could mix a Rogue with one of the magical classes and dual class, but that would still kind of feel off to me. An Assassin would be a stealth-based striker.
Ahhh yes, but what if Assassin was a Shadow power source class with mystic abilities; the Assassin in 3e had magic powers. Assassin could very well be the new Ninja as well as the new Shadowdancer (those would certainly make good Paragon Paths for an Assassin class)
And it sounds like they're going to have a Dragon Article on adding Samurai mechanics to certain classes.