I've been watching the discussion on the power sources and what possible classes the ones yet to be fully announced may contain and I've come up with the following possibility
Shadow Power Source
Class: Hexblade
Role: Defender
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It seems to make sense to me that this would be the new take on the hexblade.
I don't think WotC wants to make the hexblade arcane, and I don't think they want it to "curse" people; that's the warlock's thing.
I see the following trends however...
Martial - More damage, striker-like abilities on all classes.
Divine - Leader like abilities on most classes
Arcane - Controller like abilities on all classes
Primal - Tougher more durable classes
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this leads me to believe that....
Ki - All classes have many self-buffs
Psionic - All classes have more "stolen" buffs. aka take enemy hitpoints put it in ally; etc...
Shadow - All classes have many debuffs
I have no clue on elemental so I won't comment.
If we follow the trend that Shadow provides debuffs than...
Ninja - Through poisons and supernatural abilities
Necromancer - Through magic and weakening the physical form
Hexblade - Through moral penalties and possibly curses or spells
It makes sense to me, what about you?
See what you've done?
Sure, but now that you've posted this, they're gonna be all, "He's on to us!" And change everything.
Indeed, though the idea that hexblade will be the shadow defender has been floating around these boards for months now, so I doubt it will be Syntax_Eror's fault that WotC goes a different direction.
Seriously though, I've seen this before and have found it a reasonable guess, but I prefer the theory that Hexblade will be folded into Warlock as a melee build with weapon powers.
The same is true for the Ninja; it's a Rogue!
Actually, now that i think about it, Hexblade would probably fit in as an alternate build for the Swordmage. I mean the Swordmage in concept is already very similar to the Hexblade, it wouldn't take much to merge the two.
Psionics was kind of a catch all so really it's probably gonna be up to individual classes, one thing I do want to see is augmentable powers. Sacrifice an encounter or daily to get a kickin at will attack. Or maybe just give them an augment pool or something, once per day per tier you can make an attack go from decent to awesome.
But in honesty I see no particular reason to believe there will even be a hexblade. There's no reason that WOTC will necessarily port everything from 3e into 4e.
My predictions for the shadow power source are simple.
1. There will be something resembling the shadowcaster. It will be a controller. The 4e shadow power source is clearly and directly lifted from the 3e shadowcaster, so this is kind of a gimme.
2. There will be something resembling the Shadow Hand swordmage. It will probably be fused with other material. But the Shadow Hand discipline also represented late-3e thinking on shadow as a source of power, and contains a fusion of elements of shadow that exist all throughout 3e. I expect that many of its powers will still be around, even if they're given to someone else. Whatever class this turns out to be, and whatever else is mixed in with it, the result will be a striker.
Beyond that, I've got nothing.
Seriously, if Ninja gets it's own class i will commit seppeku right then and there.
Cultural suicide for a cultural class...well played.
The power source "themes" are things I've been thinking about on and off for some time, myself, and honestly any guess is as good as any other at this point, since it's all speculative.
Psionics were stated (in Races and Classes, I believe) to contain a great deal of the enchantment powers that the arcane classes lack. Mind-control, domination, compulsions, etc. may well be the realm of this power source, tweaked to fit the roles through which they'd be channeled (a controller would directly control somebody, a defender would basically say "come 'ere!" and so on...).
Shadow? I'd guess a lot of debuffs, to be represented by things like diseases, curses, and life-draining magic. I've never been fond of the name "Hexblade," so I'm more inclined to support a Blackguard as a shadow defender, but that's really neither here nor there. I think Pigknight made a Death Knight class based on the Warcraft class of the same name, and while his is Arcane, I like that basic idea for a Blackguard...sort of a Paladin-esque defender with a Warlock pact-like trait.
Ki is supposed to be the "power of the soul," and really mechanically I have no idea what that could mean at this point. The internal power concept seems to be pretty well divided between Martial and Psionic, but if Ki can find a spot between the two and be something unique and different, then I'm for it. The idea of self-buffing makes sense, but we'll have to wait and see the Monk preview that's slated to come out soon to start developing any real ideas.
Elemental is a real wild card for me. Most themes I've come up with for it step on the toes of Arcane, Divine, Primal, or all three a bit too much to be something of its own. But maybe that'll be it's deal? Maybe it'll be sort of an amalgamation of those three power sources? Maybe associated classes will have a lot of influence on the actual battlefield? Zones, difficult terrain, and such? I don't know...but I like the ideas of a Geomancer as a defender and a Summoner as a leader, myself...
And the Necromancer class has already been folded into the Wizard with Necromancery powers. Face it, a Necromancer is just a Wizard who focuses on death magics, it doesn't need it's own damn class.
Correction, the Necromancer is being unfolded from the wizard. The designers have been quoted on both holding back necrotic powers from the wizard class so they can use them for future development and that they LIKE necromancers. Necromancer was, IIRC, also listed in in one of the 4E preview books as a very definite example of a shadow powered character class, along side the Illusionist.
-Ardent = Psionic Defender
-Empath = Psionic Leader
-Geomancer/Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
-Hexblade – Shadow Defender
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
-Monk = Ki Striker
-Necromancer = Shadow Leader
-Ninja/Assassin = Shadow Striker
-Shaper/Wilder = Psionic Controller
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
-Sohei/Soulknife = Ki Defender
-Telepath/Kineticist = Psionic Striker
-Ki Powers: Stunts
-Psinoic Powers: Manifestations
-Shadow Powers: Mysteries
I would've gone for Invocations, but then that might suit Ki as well, maybe Evocations for Shadow.
Ki - Invocations or maybe Melds?
Primal - Conjurations
Psi - Powers
Shadow - Evocations
I'd like to see a teleporting Nomad somewhere in all this.
Soulthief (like the Spellthief) - Ki Controller or Leader?
Mysteries?
Ki - Invocations or maybe Melds?
Primal - Conjurations
Psi - Powers
Shadow - Evocations
Yeah, Mysteries were the name of Shadowcaster spells in the 3rd Ed ToM.
And as we have Evocations for primal powers, and an Invoker class, I don't see Invocations being used for powers, and I doubt Psionic powers will be called Powers (that would be odd), most likely Manifestations will be used for Psionic powers.
So then explain the Animate Dead Wizard daily; along with the other necrotic\dead related daily spells that were added to various classes recently in Dragon.
That's just dabbling and as you noted it allows a multitude of class to touch on the art of necromancy. While a wizard can have a few necromantic powers, there presently is no way to make a wizard play as a full necromancer. This might change with the release of Arcane Power, but there is no particular reason to believe it will.
Previews for February and Beyond had the following to say in regards to wizards and Arcane Power.
[INDENT]Wizard: new implements, builds, powers, and paragon paths (focusing on specialized techniques such as invisibility and teleportation, or even exploiting random chance.)[/INDENT]
None of that suggests the return of Necromancers as a build option for wizards and given the traction the necromancer holds I highly doubt WotC would fail to herald its return as a selling feature of Arcane Power if it were going to be included.
I will be most surprised if Necromancer gets more than a few power options or a Paragon Path; a Necromancer is just a Wizard with a bunch of Necrotic spells and i honostly cannot see any reason to give it an entire class. There aren't even 30 levels of Necromancer powers. I know, i tried to make a Necromancer class and even when i added concepts like Unholy Armor, Life Draining and eventually in desperation pulling stuff straight out of the Shadowfell and peoples dreams and nightmares and i still couldn't come up with enough unique powers to cover more than about 14 levels.
They have a lot more than one person working on this.
I will be most surprised if Necromancer gets more than a few power options or a Paragon Path; a Necromancer is just a Wizard with a bunch of Necrotic spells and i honostly cannot see any reason to give it an entire class.
I believe the designers have stated that the Necromancer is a very popular concept and that there will be a Necromancer class down the line.
I will be most surprised if Necromancer gets more than a few power options or a Paragon Path; a Necromancer is just a Wizard with a bunch of Necrotic spells and i honostly cannot see any reason to give it an entire class. There aren't even 30 levels of Necromancer powers. I know, i tried to make a Necromancer class and even when i added concepts like Unholy Armor, Life Draining and eventually in desperation pulling stuff straight out of the Shadowfell and peoples dreams and nightmares and i still couldn't come up with enough unique powers to cover more than about 14 levels.
That's odd. I tried my hand at a Necromancer-as-Controller class and I got all the way up to level 29, though I admit that some of the Epic tier powers were kind of cheesy. Unfortunately, that topic has now been deleted due to lack of use, so all that information is lost. Which bugs me especially, because while I have the powers stored away, I've lost the base class details.
There still just aren't that many power concepts for a Necromancer; unless they massively double up on powers they won't be able to fill 30 levels worth.
I think you're overestimating the need for powers to be "unique".
If WotC was able to make 30 levels worth of powers that are just different ways of hitting someone upside the head with a weapon (fighter), 30 levels of sneaking around and stabbing people in the back (rogue), and 30 levels of some guy yelling at his teammates to fight better (warlord) than I think they will have no problem filling 30 levels of powers for a guy who channels the very essence of life and death. Any class can seem too narrow to fill if one doesn't try and expand it's horizons.
While 3.5 is hardly relevant to a discussion of 4E, it is worth noting that pure necromancer wizards builds were quite viable, and that their was later on even a full Necromancer class (Heroes of Horror); and all of that was in 3.5 were spell effects were actually expected to be wildly diverse. Now in 4E because of the way the power system replaces low level powers with high level powers over time, a class doesn't really need a full 30 levels on powers. 10 levels worth of powers, with upgraded versions at each tier will suffice.
I suppose you could pull a Necromancer class if you could work out how to give the illusion of controlling Undead armies, but it just wouldn't be the same.
There still just aren't that many power concepts for a Necromancer
For you maybe, I know there are tons of people out there who have many.
There's also the fact that it's just not a Necromancer if you can't control Undead armies
Not at all, though that can be part of it, Merlin has even been referred to as a Necromancer, and I don't remember him commanding undead armies.
No offence, but at this point I think you should quite while you're behind.
There's also the fact that it's just not a Necromancer if you can't control Undead armies; and controlling armies of minions is great fun for the controlee and no fun for everyone else.
Others have already pointed out that this doesn't have to be true, so I'll move on.
I suppose you could pull a Necromancer class if you could work out how to give the illusion of controlling Undead armies, but it just wouldn't be the same.
There already is. The Zombie Throng (Open Grave) is a swarm of zombies that takes up a 3x3 square. That's at the very least 9 zombies and more likely upwards of 18-36, but they all act as a single creature for combat purposes. Summoning forth such an undead horde would certainly help a PC necromancer feel as though he can command armies without destroying economy of action.
Regardless, time will tell who's correct.
Actually i quite like Necromancers, if given the opportunity i will invariably choose to play as one, but to me a Necromancer who isn't controlling at least five or six seperate Undead minions just isn't a Necromancer. You can only get so much out of draining life force from peoples.
Your concept of a necromancer is rather narrow and not even particular unique to the specialty.
In my last campaign (back in 3.5) one of my players was a wizard who could just as easily have five or six minions running around, only he wasn't a necromancer, he was a fiend-binder and his minions weren't undead but fowl beasts he dragged out of the lower planes.
There was however also a character who often had two or three undead under his command, but he wasn't a necromancer either, he was a cleric. His faith wasn't even centered around undead. He was a cleric of vengeance. He just used undead because he liked to turn the tools of his enemy (the Blood of Vol and Emerald Claw) against them. Though the fact that a curse they had laid on him had left his soul tainted with an affinity for undead helped.
There are many archetypes for characters that lead groups of minions. The designers at WotC have even discussed the potential for a future warlord build that get minions. Channeling the forces of life and death is the necromancer's claim to fame. Commanding legions of zombies/skeletons is just a perk.
Maybe it's just the fact that every single Necromancer i've ever seen controls at least a handful of Undead minions, i don't know, but the concept just doesn't work for me without them.
And in all honosty i'd prefer if WotC just added some more Necromancery powers to Wizards, and possibly Raven Queen Clerics, and created a more original and\or unique class. Necromancers are great fun, but christ they're everywhere.