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Too little for players and DMs being published?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
JohnLynch
Oct 06, 2008 2:00:35 So I've had to switch places with one of my players and so I'm no longer a DM. I now realize there are a LOT of books I no longer need. I'm wondering if there is perhaps too few for me as a player, and perhaps too many for a DM?

Assuming a DM subscribes to the Compendium so they don't need to buy any of the player books (or they borrow a player's book when they need it) and also assuming they don't buy deluxe books, here's a list of books in the upcoming months for DMs:
* October, 2008 - King of the Trollhaunt (adventure)
* November, 2008 - Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons
* December, 2008 - Manual of the Planes, Demon Queen's Enclave (adventure)
* January, 2009 - Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead
* February, 2009 - Dungeon Delve (adventures)
* March, 2009 - Assault of the Nightwyrm (adventure)
* April, 2009 - Death's Reach (adventure)
* May, 2009 - Monster Manual II
* June, 2009 - Eberron Campaign Guide, Kingdom of the Ghouls (adventure)
* July, 2009 - None
* August, 2009 - Revenge of the Giants

The player list on the other hand is:
* October, 2008 - None
* November, 2008 - Martial Power
* December, 2008 - None
* January, 2009 - None
* February, 2009 - None
* March, 2009 - Player's Handbook II
* April, 2009 - Arcane Power
* May, 2009 - None
* June, 2009 - None
* July, 2009 - Divine Power, Eberron Player's Guide
* August, 2009 - Adventurer's Vault 2

Now if a DM is running the H1-E3 series of adventures (and only those) then that's 8-9 books he has to get in 11 months which is a pretty healthy number. He'll buy a book most months. However If he runs no WotC adventures its 3-4, He's getting a book every 3-4 months!

Players only need to buy 2-4 books in the same period as well. If they're playing a gnome rogue in Eberron they'll want PHB2, Martial Power, EPG and AV2. Although if they're playing an Eladrin Wizard in Eberron they'll want 1 less book.

Now a DM could need to buy all the player books (as his players don't share or he plays online) in which case he'd be getting 8-15 books. So yeah, I'd say DMs have enough.

But players are much more numerous. Is asking players to only buy at best 1 book every 3 months or at worst 1 book every 6 months really that good of an idea? Is this what it was like in 3.5e? Is there truly too little content to write for players?
#2
kuonji
Oct 06, 2008 3:25:25 I think this is the first thread I've seen that is complaining that WotC is releasing too few books. Usually the threads are all about $otC and their endless greed :D

We're looking at a projected release for the next year. One thing to keep in mind is that, as far as I know, no one has said that this is a comprehensive list of material and nothing else will be added for release.

As for a comparison to 3.5, I couldn't keep up with all the books that were coming out for 3.5. Every time I went to the store it felt like there were several new books out. Sadly, quite a few of those books weren't very interesting, didn't offer much in the way of new material, and often filled a narrow niche.

Personally, I'd rather have fewer books that are of good quality, balanced material then a glut of books that are of questionable usefulness.
#3
JohnLynch
Oct 06, 2008 3:38:16
I think this is the first thread I've seen that is complaining that WotC is releasing too few books.

Originally I was going to be a DM so I'd become accustomed to the idea of a book every month (the plan was to buy 8 books in the 11 motnhs above). I was looking forward to the regular release of new material.

However as I'm now a player instead I'm finding I won't be getting anymore books this year and next year I'll only get 3 until August (I might get a couple more after August, but I can't imagine what).

Personally, I'd rather have fewer books that are of good quality, balanced material then a glut of books that are of questionable usefulness.

Definitely. And if in 3.5e we saw a glut of questionable books I'd definitely rather the current model.
#4
DigitalMage
Oct 06, 2008 9:20:52 I think some of the difference of opinion of whether WOTC are putting out too many or too few books may be due to whether D&D is your only RPG.

For those people who only play D&D (or play that primarily) then there may not be enough books for a player.

But for those who play D&D as only one RPG among maybe four (and so only play it 3 months out of the year if that) then having 3 books a year for a player may be just right, as other months they are buying Clan books for Vampire, Race guides for RuneQuest, gadget books for Shadowrun and toolkit books for Savage Worlds.
#5
Tharag_Bocc
Oct 06, 2008 9:50:04
* November, 2008 - Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons
* January, 2009 - Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead

Has it been confirmed that these two books will be DM only. I kind of figured that in addtion to monster stats and templates (DM stuf) there might be powers, feats and/or paragon paths (player stuff) that focus on emulating, working with and/or fighting against the spot light creature. Draconomicon seems like the ideal place to present detailed options for "dragon slayers" and "dragon riders", maybe even finaly get us the wing option for dragonborn. While Open Grave we could get undead hunters and sudo-necromancy (since they are probaly still reserving the bulk for the Shadow power source).
#6
ranadiel
Oct 06, 2008 10:38:57
Has it been confirmed that these two books will be DM only. I kind of figured that in addtion to monster stats and templates (DM stuf) there might be powers, feats and/or paragon paths (player stuff) that focus on emulating, working with and/or fighting against the spot light creature. Draconomicon seems like the ideal place to present detailed options for "dragon slayers" and "dragon riders", maybe even finaly get us the wing option for dragonborn. While Open Grave we could get undead hunters and sudo-necromancy (since they are probaly still reserving the bulk for the Shadow power source).

They've said that they are trying to keep player and DM options seperate(unfortunatly I don't have a source for that one). Plus I think they would have mentioned if there was player content in the Draconomicon by now if that were the case.
#7
Tharag_Bocc
Oct 07, 2008 0:28:06
They've said that they are trying to keep player and DM options seperate(unfortunatly I don't have a source for that one). Plus I think they would have mentioned if there was player content in the Draconomicon by now if that were the case.

That seems reasonable, and something I can agree with. Still, I'm not sure I like the idea of these books just being specialized Monster Manuals either. I'm really curious to get more info on these books and to learn what their overall place in the 4e line is.
#8
hippokrene
Oct 07, 2008 0:38:16 I agree that it seems the 'to-buy' list is heavily skewed to DMs. This doesn't make a great deal of sence to me as for every 1 DM there's 4-5 players.
#9
ranadiel
Oct 07, 2008 5:57:05
That seems reasonable, and something I can agree with. Still, I'm not sure I like the idea of these books just being specialized Monster Manuals either. I'm really curious to get more info on these books and to learn what their overall place in the 4e line is.

I wouldn't quite call them specialized Monster Manuals. Fom what I can tell, they are going to be more of fluff books that happen to contain more monsters. While the Monster Manuals are monster books that contain minimum fluff.
#10
archangel_james
Oct 07, 2008 10:30:31 Well, most of the books on the DM's side are adventures. I don't think most DMs are going to buy every one of them. Maybe every other one, or maybe just one or two, or maybe none at all.
#11
Grazel
Oct 07, 2008 18:34:38 Well outside the first PHB, DMG, and MM all books are optional I don't see the concern. Players and DMs will buy what they choose to buy and some players will buy 'DM books' just ot have them for themselves. Also since you are catering to both sides its best to avoid putting out more than 1-2 books a month total (they try to do 1 but sometimes they do 2), plus adventures every so often (WotC nor me consider the adventures as 'books' though they're about the same price as one).

Also there's a lot of players and DMs out there where D&D isn't their only P&P RPG, and many more where D&D isn't their exclusive 'entertainment' budget items. I gave up on 3e because there was way too many books coming out way too frequently and as others have stated many weren't that good or filled a very niche area (often geared for powergaming munchkins).

As for Draconomicon and Open Grave, I don't see them as a specialized MM. They're like the 'ecology of' articles in Dragon but covering more creatures and in more detail. These are among the more optional books since they're only needed if the DM is going to make chromatic dragons or undead a central focus of their campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 JohnLynch Oct 06, 2008 2:00:35	So I've had to switch places with one of my players and so I'm no longer a DM. I now realize there are a LOT of books I no longer need. I'm wondering if there is perhaps too few for me as a player, and perhaps too many for a DM? Assuming a DM subscribes to the Compendium so they don't need to buy any of the player books (or they borrow a player's book when they need it) and also assuming they don't buy deluxe books, here's a list of books in the upcoming months for DMs: * October, 2008 - King of the Trollhaunt (adventure) * November, 2008 - Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons * December, 2008 - Manual of the Planes, Demon Queen's Enclave (adventure) * January, 2009 - Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead * February, 2009 - Dungeon Delve (adventures) * March, 2009 - Assault of the Nightwyrm (adventure) * April, 2009 - Death's Reach (adventure) * May, 2009 - Monster Manual II * June, 2009 - Eberron Campaign Guide, Kingdom of the Ghouls (adventure) * July, 2009 - None * August, 2009 - Revenge of the Giants The player list on the other hand is: * October, 2008 - None * November, 2008 - Martial Power * December, 2008 - None * January, 2009 - None * February, 2009 - None * March, 2009 - Player's Handbook II * April, 2009 - Arcane Power * May, 2009 - None * June, 2009 - None * July, 2009 - Divine Power, Eberron Player's Guide * August, 2009 - Adventurer's Vault 2 Now if a DM is running the H1-E3 series of adventures (and only those) then that's 8-9 books he has to get in 11 months which is a pretty healthy number. He'll buy a book most months. However If he runs no WotC adventures its 3-4, He's getting a book every 3-4 months! Players only need to buy 2-4 books in the same period as well. If they're playing a gnome rogue in Eberron they'll want PHB2, Martial Power, EPG and AV2. Although if they're playing an Eladrin Wizard in Eberron they'll want 1 less book. Now a DM could need to buy all the player books (as his players don't share or he plays online) in which case he'd be getting 8-15 books. So yeah, I'd say DMs have enough. But players are much more numerous. Is asking players to only buy at best 1 book every 3 months or at worst 1 book every 6 months really that good of an idea? Is this what it was like in 3.5e? Is there truly too little content to write for players?
#2 kuonji Oct 06, 2008 3:25:25	I think this is the first thread I've seen that is complaining that WotC is releasing too few books. Usually the threads are all about $otC and their endless greed :D We're looking at a projected release for the next year. One thing to keep in mind is that, as far as I know, no one has said that this is a comprehensive list of material and nothing else will be added for release. As for a comparison to 3.5, I couldn't keep up with all the books that were coming out for 3.5. Every time I went to the store it felt like there were several new books out. Sadly, quite a few of those books weren't very interesting, didn't offer much in the way of new material, and often filled a narrow niche. Personally, I'd rather have fewer books that are of good quality, balanced material then a glut of books that are of questionable usefulness.
#3 JohnLynch Oct 06, 2008 3:38:16	I think this is the first thread I've seen that is complaining that WotC is releasing too few books. Originally I was going to be a DM so I'd become accustomed to the idea of a book every month (the plan was to buy 8 books in the 11 motnhs above). I was looking forward to the regular release of new material. However as I'm now a player instead I'm finding I won't be getting anymore books this year and next year I'll only get 3 until August (I might get a couple more after August, but I can't imagine what). Personally, I'd rather have fewer books that are of good quality, balanced material then a glut of books that are of questionable usefulness. Definitely. And if in 3.5e we saw a glut of questionable books I'd definitely rather the current model.
#4 DigitalMage Oct 06, 2008 9:20:52	I think some of the difference of opinion of whether WOTC are putting out too many or too few books may be due to whether D&D is your only RPG. For those people who only play D&D (or play that primarily) then there may not be enough books for a player. But for those who play D&D as only one RPG among maybe four (and so only play it 3 months out of the year if that) then having 3 books a year for a player may be just right, as other months they are buying Clan books for Vampire, Race guides for RuneQuest, gadget books for Shadowrun and toolkit books for Savage Worlds.
#5 Tharag_Bocc Oct 06, 2008 9:50:04	* November, 2008 - Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons * January, 2009 - Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead Has it been confirmed that these two books will be DM only. I kind of figured that in addtion to monster stats and templates (DM stuf) there might be powers, feats and/or paragon paths (player stuff) that focus on emulating, working with and/or fighting against the spot light creature. Draconomicon seems like the ideal place to present detailed options for "dragon slayers" and "dragon riders", maybe even finaly get us the wing option for dragonborn. While Open Grave we could get undead hunters and sudo-necromancy (since they are probaly still reserving the bulk for the Shadow power source).
#6 ranadiel Oct 06, 2008 10:38:57	Has it been confirmed that these two books will be DM only. I kind of figured that in addtion to monster stats and templates (DM stuf) there might be powers, feats and/or paragon paths (player stuff) that focus on emulating, working with and/or fighting against the spot light creature. Draconomicon seems like the ideal place to present detailed options for "dragon slayers" and "dragon riders", maybe even finaly get us the wing option for dragonborn. While Open Grave we could get undead hunters and sudo-necromancy (since they are probaly still reserving the bulk for the Shadow power source). They've said that they are trying to keep player and DM options seperate(unfortunatly I don't have a source for that one). Plus I think they would have mentioned if there was player content in the Draconomicon by now if that were the case.
#7 Tharag_Bocc Oct 07, 2008 0:28:06	They've said that they are trying to keep player and DM options seperate(unfortunatly I don't have a source for that one). Plus I think they would have mentioned if there was player content in the Draconomicon by now if that were the case. That seems reasonable, and something I can agree with. Still, I'm not sure I like the idea of these books just being specialized Monster Manuals either. I'm really curious to get more info on these books and to learn what their overall place in the 4e line is.
#8 hippokrene Oct 07, 2008 0:38:16	I agree that it seems the 'to-buy' list is heavily skewed to DMs. This doesn't make a great deal of sence to me as for every 1 DM there's 4-5 players.
#9 ranadiel Oct 07, 2008 5:57:05	That seems reasonable, and something I can agree with. Still, I'm not sure I like the idea of these books just being specialized Monster Manuals either. I'm really curious to get more info on these books and to learn what their overall place in the 4e line is. I wouldn't quite call them specialized Monster Manuals. Fom what I can tell, they are going to be more of fluff books that happen to contain more monsters. While the Monster Manuals are monster books that contain minimum fluff.
#10 archangel_james Oct 07, 2008 10:30:31	Well, most of the books on the DM's side are adventures. I don't think most DMs are going to buy every one of them. Maybe every other one, or maybe just one or two, or maybe none at all.
#11 Grazel Oct 07, 2008 18:34:38	Well outside the first PHB, DMG, and MM all books are optional I don't see the concern. Players and DMs will buy what they choose to buy and some players will buy 'DM books' just ot have them for themselves. Also since you are catering to both sides its best to avoid putting out more than 1-2 books a month total (they try to do 1 but sometimes they do 2), plus adventures every so often (WotC nor me consider the adventures as 'books' though they're about the same price as one). Also there's a lot of players and DMs out there where D&D isn't their only P&P RPG, and many more where D&D isn't their exclusive 'entertainment' budget items. I gave up on 3e because there was way too many books coming out way too frequently and as others have stated many weren't that good or filled a very niche area (often geared for powergaming munchkins). As for Draconomicon and Open Grave, I don't see them as a specialized MM. They're like the 'ecology of' articles in Dragon but covering more creatures and in more detail. These are among the more optional books since they're only needed if the DM is going to make chromatic dragons or undead a central focus of their campaign.