We talked about campaign settings, and he mentioned he's not pleased with the card thing involving Gamma World, and I said to him "Ravenloft's coming out next year, right?"
His response, "Oh, yeah...and Spelljammer"
O.O
I asked him if I heard correctly, and mentioned that I had heard no tell of it. This is when he tells me that he has friends who work for wotc, and they occassionally filter news down to him before it gets released to the general populace.
He also confirmed what we've already heard from wotc, that Planescape will not be getting it's own camnpaign setting iteration.
But hey...SPELLJAMMER!
Planescape was never a setting in the classic way, ...
No, I disagree. Planescape was it's own setting with it's own very distinct themes and flavor. They took the outer planes, added a crossroads in the City of Sigil, and developed a full fledged setting. I was a huge Planescape fan with about 4 different box sets and an additional half a dozen books on the PlaneScape setting. I was such a huge fan of Planescape because they took familiar concepts like the outer planes and seasoned them with a huge amount of flavor and A number of unifing themes, such as Sigil, the Blood Wars, the Lady of Pain, the Modron march, and th various factions, competing for the very meaning of existence and reality itself.
For the OP, from the previews of upcoming releases, next years campaign setting is "Never Winter Nights". I never heard anything about Ravenloft or Spelljammer. If you have the Astral Sea supplement book, there is a lot of material and themes from Spelljammer in the Astral Sea.
It's odd to me that WotC views it as dead in the water; unviable to pursue as a proper CS.
If Planescape was announced as an upcoming setting I would literally wet my pants.
Spelljammer, though... meh.
Ravenloft was announced at GenCOn as being released as a campaign setting in 3rd or 4th quarter 2011. What I've heard from a preferred distributor who has friends in R&D @ wotc is that Spelljammer is also in the works for next year.
"Never Winter Nights" was announced on DDI.
Planescape was SOOOO flavorful, meticulously crafted and unique. I LOVED it. I own every single book TSR printed for the setting.
It's odd to me that WotC views it as dead in the water; unviable to pursue as a proper CS.
I wouldn't so much say that it's a dead setting. Rather it's been folded into the core setting, with planar travel/survival being fairly easy and presumed to be part of a typical adventurers career. In 4e Planescape would be more of a theme, where planar travel to exotic location isn't just a background element to a few adventure, but plays a central role role across all levels.
Spell Jammer on the other hand is slightly more of it's own setting, as it blends elements of all other settings plus the great voids in between.
Planescape was SOOOO flavorful, meticulously crafted and unique. I LOVED it. I own every single book TSR printed for the setting.
It's odd to me that WotC views it as dead in the water; unviable to pursue as a proper CS.
If Planescape was announced as an upcoming setting I would literally wet my pants.
Spelljammer, though... meh.
Part of the problem is that Planescape is tied to the older great wheel version of the planes that 4th does not use. While they could make the many changes to make it work it is probably not worth it to them since they are already putting out limited Planscape material in other books. Still I wish they would put out more material I really liked planescape.
Well another product for me not to buy. The more wizards announces the bigger my wallet will stay. I have not seen much in the next year and a bit for me to be excited about. They could have done a much better setting than Spelljammer but that is what they have decided on so be it but I will never buy it.
There is only one setting better than Spelljammer they could have done - Birthright. Spelljammer is one of the greatest DnD settings of all time.
Spelljammer? Well, three books I don't have to think about buying.
Huldvoll
Baron von Bomberg
Yeah, it would be really cool if we had a 4e spelljammer setting and I'd check it out for certain, but I'm not going to hold my breath based on "dude, my friend at blizzard told me about diablo 4, revenge of the burning zerg legion! It's totally in 3d, your [removed] gets bigger when you buy it and you lose weight while you play it!!!"
Hopefully, if this is true (probably just a rumor to spread on the forums for the next year), it won't be anymore of this stand-alone crap. I want a D&D setting, not a D&D setting adjacent.
Well another product for me not to buy. The more wizards announces the bigger my wallet will stay. I have not seen much in the next year and a bit for me to be excited about. They could have done a much better setting than Spelljammer but that is what they have decided on so be it but I will never buy it.
All you do is complain ;)
You won't need to buy it, you can borrow mine. IF it is true that they are expanding on the astral skiffs into full Spelljammer then I know people that have been waiting for it and will love to get it.
I suspect it won't be done though
Well another product for me not to buy. The more wizards announces the bigger my wallet will stay. I have not seen much in the next year and a bit for me to be excited about. They could have done a much better setting than Spelljammer but that is what they have decided on so be it but I will never buy it.
There is only one setting better than Spelljammer they could have done - Birthright. Spelljammer is one of the greatest DnD settings of all time.
I agree with what he said about Spelljammer....
It was very unique, it had feel of Flash Gordon, meets Pirates of The Caribbean, meets Farscape, meets Tolkien, with some additional swashbuckling mixed in for more flavoring.
Since settings are in seperate world now, spelljamming bwetween them ins't possible (as we speak).
I don't see how the settings being separate worlds makes any more difference now than it ever has. So far as I know, things have always been such (with the exception of a few settings that were folded into sub-settings within Forgotten Realms), though the "space" they existed in was very different than our own known universe.
Also, as I recall (I think it was the newest Manual of the Planes) the section on the astral see mentions, that while the distances are unimaginably vast, that if one were to travel far enough one could eventually reach astral domains that were connected with different prime material plains. That would certainly seem to suggest that something a kin to spelljamming is still part of 4e.
Well another product for me not to buy. The more wizards announces the bigger my wallet will stay. I have not seen much in the next year and a bit for me to be excited about. They could have done a much better setting than Spelljammer but that is what they have decided on so be it but I will never buy it.
There is only one setting better than Spelljammer they could have done - Birthright. Spelljammer is one of the greatest DnD settings of all time.
I agree with what he said about Spelljammer....
It was very unique, it had feel of Flash Gordon, meets Pirates of The Caribbean, meets Farscape, meets Tolkien, with some additional swashbuckling mixed in for more flavoring.
It also had walking Hippos with flint lock pistols and wearing monocoles and gargantuan space hamsters. It was really tongue and cheek, so I never felt TSR ever took the setting serious. Still it was very different.
Ravenloft.
Neverwinter.
I wouldn't discount the idea of a sourcebook covering the idea of Spelljamming on the Astra Sea. It was touched upon in Manual of the Planes. I don't own The Plane Above, but I would assume it was at least mentioned there as well.
PoLand's Nine Hells isn't Forgotten Realms's Nine Hells. Forgotten Realms's Bane isn't PoLand's Bane. Etc.
This much is true, however, all versions of the Nine Hells do exist within more or less the same astral see, though for practical purposes each cluster of domains associated with a given world is isolated within in its own pocket as the physical (or maybe metaphysical) distances between them are so unimaginably vast that not even deities can cross them easily. Also, the astral see is so huge that merely choosing a direction direction at random and setting "sail" is a very unlikely method of reaching other worlds, because one would most likely never find a cluster of domains unless one actually knew where to look in the first place.
I wouldn't discount the idea of a sourcebook covering the idea of Spelljamming on the Astra Sea. It was touched upon in Manual of the Planes. I don't own The Plane Above, but I would assume it was at least mentioned there as well.
The Plane Above has about 10 pages on sailing in the Astral Sea, including a heavy exploration theme. One could easily use that material with the information in the book to craft a Spelljammer-esque campaign. It doesn't necessarily have the same flavor as the old Spelljammer setting, but a DM could at that to taste.
PoLand's Nine Hells isn't Forgotten Realms's Nine Hells. Forgotten Realms's Bane isn't PoLand's Bane. Etc.
This much is true, however, all versions of the Nine Hells do exist within more or less the same astral see, though for practical purposes each cluster of domains associated with a given world is isolated within in its own pocket as the physical (or maybe metaphysical) distances between them are so unimaginably vast that not even deities can cross them easily. Also, the astral see is so huge that merely choosing a direction direction at random and setting "sail" is a very unlikely method of reaching other worlds, because one would most likely never find a cluster of domains unless one actually knew where to look in the first place.
I don't know, seems to me that there are several different Astral Seas, one for each cosmology of a given campaign setting, or crystal sphere. The spheres were what separated the different settings, right? And thus each one contained a complete cosmology with it. Even though similarities might be drawn (Lolth in Greyhawk and Lolth in Forgotten Realms, for example), they are neither the same beings, nor are they connected. FR racial myhtology has some races, such as elves, emigrating to Toril a long time ago and they "brought their gods with them". Not to mention Mulhorandi, who clearly are from Egypt on Earth.
A plausible assumption, then, is that when a people emigrate to another sphere, the strength of their belief in their gods (and the polypresent nature of divine beings), meant that, basically, a copy of their gods came with them. And from the point of the divergence on, they were seperate.
Or maybe...some things are just meant to be across multiverses, and that's why they are so similar. Kind of like comparing traditional MARVEL universe with ULTIMATE MARVEL one. The Reed Richards in the Ultimate universe had no connection to his counterpart, but by FATE, he was hit by some form of extraterrestrial radiation, and gained the ability to stretch. Likewise, Aurushnee, consort of Corellon, was fated to betray him and become Lolth. 3e core cosmology (as presented in Races of the Wild) has one story, FR has another, and Greyhawk has another. They all share similar aspects in the story.
Asmodeus, fort example, in PoL was a powerful angel who betrayed his master and stole godhood, becoming a god and ruler of the Nine Hells. The Blood War with demons stems from Asmodeus' desire to obtain the Seed of Evil from the Abyss, although in recent centuries, the Blood War has ebbed somewhat. In FR, he was as he has been in previous editions of DnD, a powerful (the most powerful) archdevil. During the Spellplague, he killed a god (Azuth, I belief) and took his divinity for himself. The Blood War never had it's origins explained in that setti.ng, but the 4e hiatus from it stems from the fact that when Asmodeus stole divinity, he used his powers to hurl the Abyss into the depths of the Elemental Chaos. In both, completely unrelated settings, he is a deity and the Blood War is either over, or over for now.
I seem to have gotten sidetracked by my own examples. Anyways...point is: the cosmologies are not necessarily linked together in the same astral sea. As you pointed out simply "settign sail" would not suffice. One would have to know how to navigate beyond THIS astral sea into another one.
Well another product for me not to buy. The more wizards announces the bigger my wallet will stay. I have not seen much in the next year and a bit for me to be excited about. They could have done a much better setting than Spelljammer but that is what they have decided on so be it but I will never buy it.
There is only one setting better than Spelljammer they could have done - Birthright. Spelljammer is one of the greatest DnD settings of all time.
I disagree about Spelljammer, but I'm with you on wanting Birthright.
Admittedly, I'm mostly just with you because I loved the PC strategy game Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance, and want to see something like that remade.
Battle System would be nice too.
Right. 2 settings.
Ravenloft.
Neverwinter.
I wouldn't discount the idea of a sourcebook covering the idea of Spelljamming on the Astra Sea. It was touched upon in Manual of the Planes. I don't own The Plane Above, but I would assume it was at least mentioned there as well.
That is how I see it Ravenloft and Neverwinter.
Also, I have Planes Above, and it has a spelljammer feeling. It is presented as a swashbuckling place with Githyanki pirates, Devilish slavers and spelljammers and astral skiffs sailing the Astral Sea between godly dominions.
Right. 2 settings.
Ravenloft.
Neverwinter.
I wouldn't discount the idea of a sourcebook covering the idea of Spelljamming on the Astra Sea. It was touched upon in Manual of the Planes. I don't own The Plane Above, but I would assume it was at least mentioned there as well.
That is how I see it Ravenloft and Neverwinter.
Also, I have Planes Above, and it has a spelljammer feeling. It is presented as a swashbuckling place with Githyanki pirates, Devilish slavers and spelljammers and astral skiffs sailing the Astral Sea between godly dominions.
I'll repeat it since my previous post got deleted (I guess calling people out on being rude is a violation of CoC).
Neverwinter is not a new setting. Neverwinter exists in Forgotten Realms, and will thus be a FR book.
www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
3rd Quarter 2011 Releases
4th Quarter 2011 includes the Ravenloft RPG.
I, too, really love Planescape. I find it hard to believe that they are actually building a spelljammer setting...
Since settings are in seperate world now, spelljamming bwetween them ins't possible (as we speak).
But spelljamming in the astrasl sea, between domains, that sound very possible. The idea has been floating around for a while.
They should call it Spellscape or Planejammer.
Really? You honestly think flying about the Astral Sea to different dominions is actually so close to sailing around to fantastic solar systems that the Astral Sea ate Spelljammer? I hear a lot of people throwing this argument around, and it just seems ludicrous to me. Sure, I'll admit that Spelljammer was from before my time, but it seems more like a fantasy Star Wars. The Astral Sea is nowhere close to that. Not even in the same universe.
As for the campaign settings being separate universes... wasn't that how it was before Planescape and Spelljammer changed that? And even if I'm wrong there, see the "fantasy Star Wars" argument. That's how you do a Spelljammer setting: introduce a quick glance of several bizzare worlds and solar systems. Give a quick overview of how they're different, or at least broad themes to the planet. Like the ice world, the jungle world, the desert world (and it just occurred to me: Hoth, Dagoba, Tatooine). It's kind of like describing countries or regions in other settings, but on a much grander scale. Those might be more of sample locations, while the real map handles the intergalactic powers: armadas and the like.
Seriously, I don't see anything central to Spelljammer in the Astral Sea other than flying ships - which are also in Eberron. Would you argue that Eberron made Spelljammer obsolete? Seriously, I just do not understand your argument. From my perspective, it seems absurd, yet I know it doesn't look that way from your perspective. I really just don't understand your perspective. It leaves me very confused every time I hear this argument. Can you help me at all?
If it came out as a 4e setting, I'd be interested to see if it becomes something like a standalone game/campaign setting like they're doing with Gamma World and Ravenloft. Or maybe just a campaign setting with something different and unique to drop in to the already modular game system we have.
Aslo the standalone game/ campaign setting might be a good approach for Spelljammer too, if it ever comes back.
(I guess calling people out on being rude is a violation of CoC).
Neverwinter is not a new setting. Neverwinter exists in Forgotten Realms, and will thus be a FR book.
Maztica, Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur all qualified as settings during 2nd Edition. These were the lands surrounding Faerun before they were retconned out of existence in 3rd edition.
Neverwinter is not going to be a campaign setting. It is going to be a campaign guide.
I'm not sure I understand the difference.
I'll repeat it since my previous post got deleted (I guess calling people out on being rude is a violation of CoC).
That depends on how you do it.
Neverwinter is not a new setting. Neverwinter exists in Forgotten Realms, and will thus be a FR book.
Yes I am aware that Neverwinter exists in Forgotten Realms but that doesn't stop it from getting a complete hardbound book campaign guide like Dark Sun. So excuse me for a slip in symantex. I'm still unconvinced that Spelljammer is the new setting, and I assume the "second setting" other than Ravenloft, everyone is talking about is the Neverwinter campaign guide. I make that assumption because the only news about new campaigns released by WotC at this time are Ravenloft and Neverwinter Nights. I could be wrong, in time we shall see.
This is simply asking for an opinion and nothing more.
My opinion is that she wouldn't, just based on what little we know of her. But you could have a different opinion which, to me, would have the same value (or more value) than mine.
Neverwinter is not going to be a campaign setting. It is going to be a campaign guide.
I'm not sure I understand the difference.
The difference is is that Neverwinter is already part of a campaign setting. The guide just fleshes it out a bit more.
@Goldo: How about this: The Rock of Bral is a satellite of Sigil and there's a two-way portal linking each? Best of both worlds?
but it seems more like a fantasy Star Wars.
Trust me; its not. Would be cool, but that is not what it was.
Really more like "ice pirates." Or "flash gordon."
LOVE ICE PIRATES
"space herpe"
@Goldo: Do you really think that the Lady of Pain would allow planar traveling ships to use her city as a port?
This is simply asking for an opinion and nothing more.
My opinion is that she wouldn't, just based on what little we know of her. But you could have a different opinion which, to me, would have the same value (or more value) than mine.
It has happened in Planescape canon already, the story in Uncaged: A Guide to Sigil about someone mistakenly ordering really expensive squid, and getting a squidship instead.
Though that entry never explained how that ship got there, it was presumedly through a portal that was big enough for the ship to come through, which is completely in line with what the Lady of Pain allows.
Thanks for the quick response, Goldomarked. I don't agree with you, and your stance still doesn't make an ounce of sense to me, but hey, at least we tried to see each other's views.
No problem. If you tell me what exactly doesn't make sense maybe I can try to make some.
Handsome avatar by the way.
I think we just come from different stances on what's an acceptable level of change. For me, going from "fantasy version of outer space, as if outdated theories (and more than one theory) were true" are too different from "islands in the Astral Sea" for me to accept them as equivalent. For you, they're not. But to me, they are. One is using flying ships to go to sail to other planets, and even different solar systems, where the very nature of stars can differ. In the other, you're using flying ships to sail from Mt. Olympus to Azgard to the Inferno, etc. The similarity of using flying ships to sail to fantastic realms may be a strong similarity, but not enough to affect the change in scope.
And thanks. You have a pretty nice avatar yourself.
On a side note, I'll have to look into Ice Pirates. One of my favorite songs is called Ice Pirates, by an obscure little band called Darlingside. You can find it on iTunes under their first album, January EP. I've never understood the reference, but I'd like to. /end tangent.
Actually, I remember seeing a thread a year or more back on updating Spelljammer to 4e, and it had some neat ideas. And it got me thinking some too. I like the idea of the Abyss at the core of the Elemental Chaos being a magical analog to a black hole in a nebula. If you sail to the wrong part of space, the ether becomes turbulent and charged with storms. It's the Elemental Chaos. And if you go too deep, you can get pulled into the Abyss. I also liked the idea of using Atropus (from Elder Evils). Seriously, it's a killer moon that seeks out other planets. Perfect for a space-faring campaign. That may be part of why I was thinking of a Star Wars styled Spelljammer game. Atropus is the Death Star, and vampires/liches/intelligent undead are Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine, with zombie storm troopers known as the Ashen Hoard. Of course, it's a tad different since they didn't make their "Death Star" - it's an intelligent entity they've manipulated to work towards their agenda (without actually controlling).
Spelljammer - an attempt to cram SF into fantasy. It never made much sense, and the cool was pushed over the logic.
Sigal - At least this was some place to shove the party when they leveled to the point where they could mash small armies and carry around gear worth the annual budget of a kingdom.
Birthright - 3 games jammed into one, and failing at each of them. I suppose it was not too bad as just another D&D game, but the 3 games did not fit together well and one pretty much had to neglect two to play the third and that makes most of the game a waste.
Spelljammer - an attempt to cram SF into fantasy. It never made much sense, and the cool was pushed over the logic.
Sigal - At least this was some place to shove the party when they leveled to the point where they could mash small armies and carry around gear worth the annual budget of a kingdom.
I'm going to guess you missed the point, and the fun, of each of those three settings. Those three, plus Dark Sun, were easily the best TSR put out.
Birthright was 3 games in one? You mean FR, Greyhawk and DragonLance jammed in one setting?
Mass combat rules, emprie building, and standard D&D.
As he said they really didn't work all that well togehter, bacause they were poorly written.
I could see that easily not working out well at all.
It would seem better almost like a board game.
Birthright mass combat rules would make a good boardgame. I wish the Risk style boardgame that WotC is releasing was based on that instead of the Nerath lore...
I would like to see a board game based on Birthright that has character sheets and abilities and whatnot and those abilities dictate what your armies are capable of. Kind of like D&D and Risk combined.
If anything, and this is pure guesswork/hoping on my part, but Planescape would be released last since it encompases all settings. It would make the most sense.
Then we are back with phlogiston, the amber "liquid" between spheres. Like the "Bleed" in the DC Universe. Those who have read the Authority or Planetary or Final Crisis might be familiare with it.
The different Earths of the DCU "float" in the Bleed and you need to access the Bleed to change parallel universes.
I haven't read Authority or Planetary, although I'm familiar with the concept, but I've read/have most of the various Crisis titles.
The Bleed is simply the "space" between universes that unites them as an entire multi-verse, correct? I always figured this was more of a meta-concept. Since the various DC universes vibrate at different frequencies, directly "on top" of each-other, almost, but not quite, sharing the same space. The Flash was able to use his super speed to vibrate his molecules at a different frequency to access the alternate earths.
Or, was the Bleed the place from which Superboy Prime was "retcon-punching" the walls of reality?
To stay on topic, it seems to me that the DC Multiverse is probably very different from the Planescape cosmology.
Birthright was 3 games in one? You mean FR, Greyhawk and DragonLance jammed in one setting?
Mass combat rules, emprie building, and standard D&D.
As he said they really didn't work all that well togehter, bacause they were poorly written.
I think a 4e rewrite could fix alot of the problems though... and personaly I would make it diffrent then 4e...
Birthright mass combat rules would make a good boardgame. I wish the Risk style boardgame that WotC is releasing was based on that instead of the Nerath lore...
I would like to see a board game based on Birthright that has character sheets and abilities and whatnot and those abilities dictate what your armies are capable of. Kind of like D&D and Risk combined.
maybe if the new board game next year does well...
Birthright was 3 games in one? You mean FR, Greyhawk and DragonLance jammed in one setting?
Mass combat rules, emprie building, and standard D&D.
As he said they really didn't work all that well togehter, bacause they were poorly written.
I think a 4e rewrite could fix alot of the problems though
The problems are pretty fundamental. Your D&D game is done in a minute of game time. Your mass combat is more like a full day. And the empire building works in terms of months or years. In the D&D game, the players are domanant to the point of being the whole schmere. In the battle, they are pretty much swamped. And in the empire, the abilities of the D&D player just have no play. You really need 3 different PCs to play 3 different games. You can rotate games for each session, but you are pretty much just playing 3 different games with effectively no relationship with each other.
And when you try to do three things, you are not likely to do any of them well.
If birthright was broken up into two board games I'd buy it.
Game one would be like the risk mass combat game.
Game two would be a empire builder, now that I think of it this might have to be a computer game like the RR tycoon.
I could get behind that
The problems are pretty fundamental. Your D&D game is done in a minute of game time. Your mass combat is more like a full day. And the empire building works in terms of months or years. In the D&D game, the players are domanant to the point of being the whole schmere. In the battle, they are pretty much swamped. And in the empire, the abilities of the D&D player just have no play. You really need 3 different PCs to play 3 different games. You can rotate games for each session, but you are pretty much just playing 3 different games with effectively no relationship with each other.
And when you try to do three things, you are not likely to do any of them well.
ok, so lets make it only 1 primary and 1 secondary...and forget the third entirely... empire building and mass combat...
An elegant system for war gaming related to DnD would be fun and useful.
They tried before, I think it was called BattleSystem.
I wonder why it never worked?
Mainly cause it was overly complicated, and difficult to find enough minis to do anything with it. I tried it a couple of times, back in the day, and I found it to be a generally clunky, uninteresting system.
An elegant system for war gaming related to DnD would be fun and useful.
They tried before, I think it was called BattleSystem.
I wonder why it never worked?
Mainly cause it was overly complicated, and difficult to find enough minis to do anything with it. I tried it a couple of times, back in the day, and I found it to be a generally clunky, uninteresting system.
It's also curious to me that they felt DnD even NEEDED a mass combat system, since DnD was originally based off an existing mass combat system - Chainmail. Why wouldn't they just refer people back to Chainmail rules for mass combat?
I'd love to see WoTC confirm that Spelljammer is in the pipeline for 2011. Meantime I'm sticking to my own non-canon 4e reboot.
Agreed.
Okay, spoke to my guy at the gaming store again, and he said it was cool to name names, as he wouldn't be in trouble, there was nothing hush-hush about it. The designer he mentioned, he at first said Skip Williams, but thought about it, and said, it may not have been Skip (although he does sometimes recieve info from Skip).
The email said "Spelljammer is in the pipeline for end of 2011", so that means either 4th quarter, or maybe pushed back to 2012.
I've also thought the same thing about the Aquela campaign run by James Wyatt. There is definite synergy between these two and the common theme is large fancy spelljammer style ships.
Coincidence?
WotC_Trevor: From MisterKojak: Spelljammer? Dare a boy Dream….?
WotC_RichBaker: A couple of years ago I would have said no way. Now, I’m not so sure. We’ve got a few rumblings that might be coming around in the future. Nothing coming up really soon, but…maybe.
In the meantime, my novel Corsair touches on it a bit, if you want a little taste of spelljamming in and around 4e Forgotten Realms. (a bit of self-promotion there, sorry)
OK folks, I’m afraid I have to run. Thanks to all of you for stopping by, and I hope I got at least a few of the questions you cared about answered!
I'LL BE BACK FOR BREAKFAST!"
Spelljammer WILL, MUST return!
Show
Does anybody remember the Dark Sun Dev Chat? This is from the transcript:WotC_Trevor: From MisterKojak: Spelljammer? Dare a boy Dream….?
WotC_RichBaker: A couple of years ago I would have said no way. Now, I’m not so sure. We’ve got a few rumblings that might be coming around in the future. Nothing coming up really soon, but…maybe.
In the meantime, my novel Corsair touches on it a bit, if you want a little taste of spelljamming in and around 4e Forgotten Realms. (a bit of self-promotion there, sorry)
OK folks, I’m afraid I have to run. Thanks to all of you for stopping by, and I hope I got at least a few of the questions you cared about answered!
Ok, well I'm all for the revival of these old settings. You know, introfucing classics to a modern era and all, but where is the new stuff? When is 4th going to get a setting that is it's own?
In theory, that's what the Nentir Vale stuff would be.
I'm not sure if that's still in the plans or not, though.
Never?
This. Especially what with Mearls and company being so focused on bringing back the feel of the earlier editions.
I believe that the first runner up was done by Rich Burlew and was a water-world type setting. I don't know anything about the second runner up....not that I think we'll see either of these settings anytime soon.
Water world? Like Aquela?
It is its own rpg just like Gamma World. It will very probably be compatible with 4th but it will not be just a setting.
I'm wondering why people keep thinking that Ravenloft will be a 4th Edition setting. It will not.
It is its own rpg just like Gamma World. It will very probably be compatible with 4th but it will not be just a setting.
Probably because it was announced as a 4e setting by WotC ...
It is, however, being marketed at it's own product instead of being a part of the D&D line. This is because it is darker and more gritty than the regular brand.
Unlike Gamma World, Ravonloft will be "compatible" with forth edition, with the expception of the (Fear?) cards.
Last I checked, GW was being billed by WotC as "compatible" with 4e.
It does use the D20 system.
Unlike Gamma World, Ravonloft will be "compatible" with forth edition, with the expception of the (Fear?) cards.
Last I checked, GW was being billed by WotC as "compatible" with 4e.
Maybe it will be MORE campatible with Gamma World.
Unlike Gamma World, Ravonloft will be "compatible" with forth edition, with the expception of the (Fear?) cards.
Last I checked, GW was being billed by WotC as "compatible" with 4e.
Maybe it will be MORE campatible with Gamma World.
I sincerely hope not. Those of you who want it already have your CCGRPG, so please keep your tainted peanut butter out of my perfectly good chocolate.
mmMMmmmm ... Reese's....
Tainted peanut butter.Who diped Reese Witherspoon in peanut butter and chocolat?
And where can I get a pack?
Thanks for the quick response, Goldomarked. I don't agree with you, and your stance still doesn't make an ounce of sense to me, but hey, at least we tried to see each other's views.
No problem. If you tell me what exactly doesn't make sense maybe I can try to make some.
Handsome avatar by the way.
I think we just come from different stances on what's an acceptable level of change. For me, going from "fantasy version of outer space, as if outdated theories (and more than one theory) were true" are too different from "islands in the Astral Sea" for me to accept them as equivalent. For you, they're not. But to me, they are. One is using flying ships to go to sail to other planets, and even different solar systems, where the very nature of stars can differ. In the other, you're using flying ships to sail from Mt. Olympus to Azgard to the Inferno, etc. The similarity of using flying ships to sail to fantastic realms may be a strong similarity, but not enough to affect the change in scope.
And thanks. You have a pretty nice avatar yourself.
On a side note, I'll have to look into Ice Pirates. One of my favorite songs is called Ice Pirates, by an obscure little band called Darlingside. You can find it on iTunes under their first album, January EP. I've never understood the reference, but I'd like to. /end tangent.
Actually, I remember seeing a thread a year or more back on updating Spelljammer to 4e, and it had some neat ideas. And it got me thinking some too. I like the idea of the Abyss at the core of the Elemental Chaos being a magical analog to a black hole in a nebula. If you sail to the wrong part of space, the ether becomes turbulent and charged with storms. It's the Elemental Chaos. And if you go too deep, you can get pulled into the Abyss. I also liked the idea of using Atropus (from Elder Evils). Seriously, it's a killer moon that seeks out other planets. Perfect for a space-faring campaign. That may be part of why I was thinking of a Star Wars styled Spelljammer game. Atropus is the Death Star, and vampires/liches/intelligent undead are Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine, with zombie storm troopers known as the Ashen Hoard. Of course, it's a tad different since they didn't make their "Death Star" - it's an intelligent entity they've manipulated to work towards their agenda (without actually controlling).
Spelljammer - an attempt to cram SF into fantasy. It never made much sense, and the cool was pushed over the logic.
Sigal - At least this was some place to shove the party when they leveled to the point where they could mash small armies and carry around gear worth the annual budget of a kingdom.
Birthright - 3 games jammed into one, and failing at each of them. I suppose it was not too bad as just another D&D game, but the 3 games did not fit together well and one pretty much had to neglect two to play the third and that makes most of the game a waste.
Spelljammer - an attempt to cram SF into fantasy. It never made much sense, and the cool was pushed over the logic.
Sigal - At least this was some place to shove the party when they leveled to the point where they could mash small armies and carry around gear worth the annual budget of a kingdom.
I'm going to guess you missed the point, and the fun, of each of those three settings. Those three, plus Dark Sun, were easily the best TSR put out.
Birthright was 3 games in one? You mean FR, Greyhawk and DragonLance jammed in one setting?
Mass combat rules, emprie building, and standard D&D.
As he said they really didn't work all that well togehter, bacause they were poorly written.
I could see that easily not working out well at all.
It would seem better almost like a board game.
Birthright mass combat rules would make a good boardgame. I wish the Risk style boardgame that WotC is releasing was based on that instead of the Nerath lore...
I would like to see a board game based on Birthright that has character sheets and abilities and whatnot and those abilities dictate what your armies are capable of. Kind of like D&D and Risk combined.
If anything, and this is pure guesswork/hoping on my part, but Planescape would be released last since it encompases all settings. It would make the most sense.
Then we are back with phlogiston, the amber "liquid" between spheres. Like the "Bleed" in the DC Universe. Those who have read the Authority or Planetary or Final Crisis might be familiare with it.
The different Earths of the DCU "float" in the Bleed and you need to access the Bleed to change parallel universes.
I haven't read Authority or Planetary, although I'm familiar with the concept, but I've read/have most of the various Crisis titles.
The Bleed is simply the "space" between universes that unites them as an entire multi-verse, correct? I always figured this was more of a meta-concept. Since the various DC universes vibrate at different frequencies, directly "on top" of each-other, almost, but not quite, sharing the same space. The Flash was able to use his super speed to vibrate his molecules at a different frequency to access the alternate earths.
Or, was the Bleed the place from which Superboy Prime was "retcon-punching" the walls of reality?
To stay on topic, it seems to me that the DC Multiverse is probably very different from the Planescape cosmology.
Birthright was 3 games in one? You mean FR, Greyhawk and DragonLance jammed in one setting?
Mass combat rules, emprie building, and standard D&D.
As he said they really didn't work all that well togehter, bacause they were poorly written.
I think a 4e rewrite could fix alot of the problems though... and personaly I would make it diffrent then 4e...
Birthright mass combat rules would make a good boardgame. I wish the Risk style boardgame that WotC is releasing was based on that instead of the Nerath lore...
I would like to see a board game based on Birthright that has character sheets and abilities and whatnot and those abilities dictate what your armies are capable of. Kind of like D&D and Risk combined.
maybe if the new board game next year does well...
Birthright was 3 games in one? You mean FR, Greyhawk and DragonLance jammed in one setting?
Mass combat rules, emprie building, and standard D&D.
As he said they really didn't work all that well togehter, bacause they were poorly written.
I think a 4e rewrite could fix alot of the problems though
The problems are pretty fundamental. Your D&D game is done in a minute of game time. Your mass combat is more like a full day. And the empire building works in terms of months or years. In the D&D game, the players are domanant to the point of being the whole schmere. In the battle, they are pretty much swamped. And in the empire, the abilities of the D&D player just have no play. You really need 3 different PCs to play 3 different games. You can rotate games for each session, but you are pretty much just playing 3 different games with effectively no relationship with each other.
And when you try to do three things, you are not likely to do any of them well.
If birthright was broken up into two board games I'd buy it.
Game one would be like the risk mass combat game.
Game two would be a empire builder, now that I think of it this might have to be a computer game like the RR tycoon.
I could get behind that
The problems are pretty fundamental. Your D&D game is done in a minute of game time. Your mass combat is more like a full day. And the empire building works in terms of months or years. In the D&D game, the players are domanant to the point of being the whole schmere. In the battle, they are pretty much swamped. And in the empire, the abilities of the D&D player just have no play. You really need 3 different PCs to play 3 different games. You can rotate games for each session, but you are pretty much just playing 3 different games with effectively no relationship with each other.
And when you try to do three things, you are not likely to do any of them well.
ok, so lets make it only 1 primary and 1 secondary...and forget the third entirely... empire building and mass combat...
An elegant system for war gaming related to DnD would be fun and useful.
They tried before, I think it was called BattleSystem.
I wonder why it never worked?
Mainly cause it was overly complicated, and difficult to find enough minis to do anything with it. I tried it a couple of times, back in the day, and I found it to be a generally clunky, uninteresting system.
An elegant system for war gaming related to DnD would be fun and useful.
They tried before, I think it was called BattleSystem.
I wonder why it never worked?
Mainly cause it was overly complicated, and difficult to find enough minis to do anything with it. I tried it a couple of times, back in the day, and I found it to be a generally clunky, uninteresting system.
It's also curious to me that they felt DnD even NEEDED a mass combat system, since DnD was originally based off an existing mass combat system - Chainmail. Why wouldn't they just refer people back to Chainmail rules for mass combat?
I'd love to see WoTC confirm that Spelljammer is in the pipeline for 2011. Meantime I'm sticking to my own non-canon 4e reboot.
Agreed.
Okay, spoke to my guy at the gaming store again, and he said it was cool to name names, as he wouldn't be in trouble, there was nothing hush-hush about it. The designer he mentioned, he at first said Skip Williams, but thought about it, and said, it may not have been Skip (although he does sometimes recieve info from Skip).
The email said "Spelljammer is in the pipeline for end of 2011", so that means either 4th quarter, or maybe pushed back to 2012.
I've also thought the same thing about the Aquela campaign run by James Wyatt. There is definite synergy between these two and the common theme is large fancy spelljammer style ships.
Coincidence?
WotC_Trevor: From MisterKojak: Spelljammer? Dare a boy Dream….?
WotC_RichBaker: A couple of years ago I would have said no way. Now, I’m not so sure. We’ve got a few rumblings that might be coming around in the future. Nothing coming up really soon, but…maybe.
In the meantime, my novel Corsair touches on it a bit, if you want a little taste of spelljamming in and around 4e Forgotten Realms. (a bit of self-promotion there, sorry)
OK folks, I’m afraid I have to run. Thanks to all of you for stopping by, and I hope I got at least a few of the questions you cared about answered!
I'LL BE BACK FOR BREAKFAST!"
Spelljammer WILL, MUST return!
Show
Does anybody remember the Dark Sun Dev Chat? This is from the transcript:WotC_Trevor: From MisterKojak: Spelljammer? Dare a boy Dream….?
WotC_RichBaker: A couple of years ago I would have said no way. Now, I’m not so sure. We’ve got a few rumblings that might be coming around in the future. Nothing coming up really soon, but…maybe.
In the meantime, my novel Corsair touches on it a bit, if you want a little taste of spelljamming in and around 4e Forgotten Realms. (a bit of self-promotion there, sorry)
OK folks, I’m afraid I have to run. Thanks to all of you for stopping by, and I hope I got at least a few of the questions you cared about answered!
Ok, well I'm all for the revival of these old settings. You know, introfucing classics to a modern era and all, but where is the new stuff? When is 4th going to get a setting that is it's own?
In theory, that's what the Nentir Vale stuff would be.
I'm not sure if that's still in the plans or not, though.
Never?
This. Especially what with Mearls and company being so focused on bringing back the feel of the earlier editions.
I believe that the first runner up was done by Rich Burlew and was a water-world type setting. I don't know anything about the second runner up....not that I think we'll see either of these settings anytime soon.
Water world? Like Aquela?
It is its own rpg just like Gamma World. It will very probably be compatible with 4th but it will not be just a setting.
I'm wondering why people keep thinking that Ravenloft will be a 4th Edition setting. It will not.
It is its own rpg just like Gamma World. It will very probably be compatible with 4th but it will not be just a setting.
Probably because it was announced as a 4e setting by WotC ...
It is, however, being marketed at it's own product instead of being a part of the D&D line. This is because it is darker and more gritty than the regular brand.
Unlike Gamma World, Ravonloft will be "compatible" with forth edition, with the expception of the (Fear?) cards.
Last I checked, GW was being billed by WotC as "compatible" with 4e.
It does use the D20 system.
Unlike Gamma World, Ravonloft will be "compatible" with forth edition, with the expception of the (Fear?) cards.
Last I checked, GW was being billed by WotC as "compatible" with 4e.
Maybe it will be MORE campatible with Gamma World.
Unlike Gamma World, Ravonloft will be "compatible" with forth edition, with the expception of the (Fear?) cards.
Last I checked, GW was being billed by WotC as "compatible" with 4e.
Maybe it will be MORE campatible with Gamma World.
I sincerely hope not. Those of you who want it already have your CCGRPG, so please keep your tainted peanut butter out of my perfectly good chocolate.
mmMMmmmm ... Reese's....
Tainted peanut butter.Who diped Reese Witherspoon in peanut butter and chocolat?
And where can I get a pack?