There's been a lot of discussion on this subject in various topics, but I haven't seen a single thread dedicated solely to proving or disproving whether or not "Ki" is going to end up essentially an "Asian" power source.
Reference Information
Dictionary.com gives Ki the following definition.
"the circulating life energy that in Chinese philosophy is thought to be inherent in all things; in traditional Chinese medicine the balance of negative and positive forms in the body is believed to be essential for good health."
Wikipedia states the following on Ki (or Qi.)
"In traditional Chinese culture, qi is an active principle forming part of any living thing. It is frequently translated as 'energy flow,' and is often compared to Western notions of energeia or élan vital (vitalism) as well as the yogic notion of prana."
The 4th Edition Player's Handbook states the following on Ki.
"...monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki)..."
In the same paragraph it states that Ki is, in fact, going to be a power source.
Not "soul energy."
Not "soul."
Ki.
The term Ki itself is Asian.
The Player's Handbook goes out of its way to describe the power source itself as "soul energy" first, to explain what Ki is. This was not done with any other power source, inherently suggesting that to readers of an English language Player's Handbook, the term Ki may be foreign (specifically Asian).
"the circulating life energy that in Chinese philosophy is thought to be inherent in all things; in traditional Chinese medicine the balance of negative and positive forms in the body is believed to be essential for good health."
Wikipedia states the following on Ki (or Qi.)
"In traditional Chinese culture, qi is an active principle forming part of any living thing. It is frequently translated as 'energy flow,' and is often compared to Western notions of energeia or élan vital (vitalism) as well as the yogic notion of prana."
The 4th Edition Player's Handbook states the following on Ki.
"...monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki)..."
In the same paragraph it states that Ki is, in fact, going to be a power source.
Not "soul energy."
Not "soul."
Ki.
The term Ki itself is Asian.
The Player's Handbook goes out of its way to describe the power source itself as "soul energy" first, to explain what Ki is. This was not done with any other power source, inherently suggesting that to readers of an English language Player's Handbook, the term Ki may be foreign (specifically Asian).
[As an aside, I don't think that "Ki" is so much "Soul" energy, so much as "the energy inside you." Fine line to draw, but it removes the ramifications of Incarnum and the afterlife.]
For example, I fully expect "special visual effects" to play in image in nearly all the Ki class' powers. However, just because they use Ki, does not name the name have to be Asian in origin. Lets set up an example name list:
Defender: Rounin- Trained in noble blade-arts, these master warriors are their own masters.
Striker: Monk- A true student of ki, these characters best equipment is their own body
Leader: Sensei- A teacher of the ways of ki, who can show any ally how to weild it in a useful way
Controller: Streamer- These characters find themselves with bountiful reserves of ki, and often times must release them in dramatic ways, such as balls of energy, and earth-rending punches.
4e also gives the chance to incorperate the elements of Ki (and while we are on the subject, Psi) into the core setting. It may be of Asian inspiration, but to characters in the game, a Ki wilding monk is just as normal as a fey-pact warlock, which is just as normal as the psionic Empath.
We have a books filled with paladins and other westerner concepts and it's not about 'Running game in western europe'.
Ki=/=Asian, Ki is a subset of Asian.
Your reference basically says that ki is an inherently Chinese concept. So ki is not Asian, ki is Chinese (from your own reference information, at least). Thus ki could only represent one, or just a few more, of the asian archetypes.
I do not know if other people insinuate otherwise, but from the threads that I posted, none of them claimed that ki has no asian roots. Rather, people such as I believe that it should not be the end-be-all destination of all asian-themed classes.
Let me reiterate that I would love to see the ninja or even the (kind of a stretch) samurai as ki classes alongside the monk. They can represent the power source properly, and while country-specific, could easily fit into most games.
But when discussing the ki power source and what other classes could be in it, there is a mindset that ki is defined by being Asian. This is false. It may have originated there, but that is not all the continent has to offer.
So, when one thinks of a ninja, for example, I am not opposed to giving them the shadow power source if the flavor is sufficient. You can make a samurai and turn it martial; that will work, too. But if WotC decides to put them in ki, it should be because of the underlying nature of that power source, and not because, "it's Asian".
I urge everyone to remember that Asia is not merely a continent composed of China or Japan.
There's been a lot of discussion on this subject in various topics, but I haven't seen a single thread dedicated solely to proving or disproving whether or not "Ki" is going to end up essentially an "Asian" power source.
So let's hear it!
By your logic, Warlocks need become evil breathers of oath. (The origin of Warlock is Warluga or Oath Breaker).
(Asian Martial Arts + Martial Arts Movies + Hollywood + Anime + Videogames) * D&D 4e Design Paradigms = Ki Powersource.
[Edited as per TwinBahamut's suggestion.]
I feel that true history and religious philosophies on the idea will weight very little on the idea. On the contrary, I think that things like "Kill Bill" and "The Matrix" "Soul Calibur," and "Dragon Ball" will have a far greater impact on "Ki." And no matter what, the designers will spin the idea so that it fits into their conception of how it could fit into the D&D world. As such, I feel that we can expect that there will be Ki classes with non-Asian names, and at some point possibly, Asian names in non-Ki classes.
To be fair, I think that if we must set up an equation for "D&D Ki," it might go something like this.
(Asian Martial Arts + Martial Arts Movies + Hollywood + Anime) * D&D 4e Design Paradigms = Ki Powersource.
I feel that true history and religious philosophies on the idea will weight very little on the idea. On the contrary, I think that things like "Kill Bill" and "The Matrix" and "Dragon Ball" will have a far greater impact on "Ki." And no matter what, the designers will spin the idea so that it fits into their conception of how it could fit into the D&D world.
Other than the fact that I would add videogames to the equation (for Street Fighter's influence alone, of nothing else), I agree with this. The Ki Power Source is going to be about a particular pop culture concept of Ki, not the historical philosophy.
My stand on the matter:
Ki=/=Asian, Ki is a subset of Asian.
Your reference basically says that ki is an inherently Chinese concept. So ki is not Asian, ki is Chinese (from your own reference information, at least). Thus ki could only represent one, or just a few more, of the asian archetypes.
I do not know if other people insinuate otherwise, but from the threads that I posted, none of them claimed that ki has no asian roots. Rather, people such as I believe that it should not be the end-be-all destination of all asian-themed classes.
I will also echo this sentiment. I would think it is perfectly fine if every Ki class has an Asian name and embodies a classically Asian archetype. I would not think it fine if classes were thrown into the Ki Power Source simply because they had an Asian name and embodied a classically Asian archetype.
By your logic, Warlocks need become evil breathers of oath. (The origin of Warlock is Warluga or Oath Breaker).
This really isn't either a relevant comparison or a valid description of how the word Warlock is used in D&D. Everyone is using a modern definition of "ki" in this discussion, and the 4E Ki Power Source is almost certainly going to coincide with that modern definition. The old root of Warlock as "oathbreaker" is irrelevant, since the modern definition of "warlock" that is used in 4E, "male witch" has been the primary definition of the word for at least the past 300 years.
I do NOT dig the "Ki = Asian" idea. It's stale, boring, and even offensive. I agree that certain "asian classes" are archetypical enough to be their own classes, but I definitely think that they ought to be disseminated throughout the power sources, rather than being shoehorned on racial, cultural, or real-world geographical bases. Furthermore, as another poster pointed out, "Ki" and most of the classes usually associated with it are distinctly Japan-centric concepts, with the occasional nod to Chinese culture. The evidence is the nomenclature: Ki, Ninja, Samurai, and Shugenja, for example, are all Japanese words. Other cultures, including Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, Tibetan, Punjabi, and many others from across eastern asian have their own martial concepts, traditions, and terminology, so why isn't there more examples of fantasy classes based upon non-Japanese or non-Chinese ideas? Hell, what of India? Africa? Oceania and the Americas?
(I'm not especially worked up; I just like things to be fair. The concept of "Ki" definitely doesn't represent all asian cultures, and so I think that "Ki" ought not to be associated specifically with asian concepts. Hence, I like the idea of "asian classes" across several power sources.)
Easy examples, IMHO, of unique "asian classes" are Monks (Ki) and Ninjas (Shadow). It's definitely true that certain other classes, Martial ones in particular, are a good fit for some types of those characters, but not necessarily. For example, a ninja (Rogue) who is a master of espionage and covert martial maneuvers is clearly a different sort of character from a ninja (Shadow Striker) who can mystically become insubstantial or turn into a pure shadow-form.
...Your reference basically says that ki is an inherently Chinese concept. So ki is not Asian, ki is Chinese (from your own reference information, at least)...
...I urge everyone to remember that Asia is not merely a continent composed of China or Japan.
This is nitpicking at best.
Dictionary.com itself states under the term "Asian"
"Usage Note: Asia is the largest of the continents with more than half the world's population. Though strictly speaking all of its inhabitants are Asians, in practice this term is applied almost exclusively to the peoples of East, Southeast, and South Asia as opposed to those of Southwest Asia—such as Arabs, Turks, Iranians, and Kurds—who are more usually designated Middle or Near Easterners. Indonesians and Filipinos are properly termed Asian, since their island groups are considered part of the Asian continent, but not the Melanesians, Micronesians, and Polynesians of the central and southern Pacific, who are now often referred to collectively as Pacific Islanders."
Don't try to undermine the topic at hand with semantics like this.
Ditto to this that Aluman had to say.
By your logic, Warlocks need become evil breathers of oath. (The origin of Warlock is Warluga or Oath Breaker).
Thank you to those who are trying to remain on topic, rather than attempt to somehow tear me down with semantics. Like I said, I'm looking for ideas here, not trying to be argumentative.
I agree with this sentiment, though I am concerned about it at the same time:
I would think it is perfectly fine if every Ki class has an Asian name and embodies a classically Asian archetype. I would not think it fine if classes were thrown into the Ki Power Source simply because they had an Asian name and embodied a classically Asian archetype.
I'm afraid this will likely be a horse/cart or chicken/egg situation. In the end, we'll have little way of knowing the course of logic that WotC used to select the classes they will select. We can hope that they won't simply use "Asian" as a guideline here, but we'll just have to take their word for it.
I can see concepts like the Soulknife (though I would wonder why they'd separate it from Psi in the first place) or the "Streamer" (as Wizardmon dubbed it) falling into Ki. I'd be more inclined to call the "Streamer" something like "Channeller" or "Conduit" though. But let's keep the ideas coming.
Thus, I think Ki might include an Incarnate class, perhaps as a Leader.
I do NOT dig the "Ki = Asian" idea. It's stale, boring, and even offensive. I agree that certain "asian classes" are archetypical enough to be their own classes, but I definitely think that they ought to be disseminated throughout the power sources, rather than being shoehorned on racial, cultural, or real-world geographical bases. Furthermore, as another poster pointed out, "Ki" and most of the classes usually associated with it are distinctly Japan-centric concepts, with the occasional nod to Chinese culture. The evidence is the nomenclature: Ki, Ninja, Samurai, and Shugenja, for example, are all Japanese words. Other cultures, including Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, Tibetan, Punjabi, and many others from across eastern asian have their own martial concepts, traditions, and terminology, so why isn't there more examples of fantasy classes based upon non-Japanese or non-Chinese ideas? Hell, what of India? Africa? Oceania and the Americas?
(I'm not especially worked up; I just like things to be fair. The concept of "Ki" definitely doesn't represent all asian cultures, and so I think that "Ki" ought not to be associated specifically with asian concepts. Hence, I like the idea of "asian classes" across several power sources.)
Easy examples, IMHO, of unique "asian classes" are Monks (Ki) and Ninjas (Shadow). It's definitely true that certain other classes, Martial ones in particular, are a good fit for some types of those characters, but not necessarily. For example, a ninja (Rogue) who is a master of espionage and covert martial maneuvers is clearly a different sort of character from a ninja (Shadow Striker) who can mystically become insubstantial or turn into a pure shadow-form.
Except this is game, not an tool to explore the various culture of the earth.
We've all been exposed to some degree of martial art movies and animes, the vast majority of them being either Chinese or Japanese. And a lot of us want to be able to create those concepts we've seen in those media in the game. So yes, we want Samurai, Ninja and Monks, even if they have nothing to do with the historical/cultural version.
While I'm sure Korea (for example) has rich folklore, great stories and quite possible more than enough material to warrant it's own power source worth of class in D&D... I can't say I really care about it. Nor do I really care about the cultural equivalent of class from Colombia, Tanzania or Yemen.
Is Asia only Japan and China? No. But D&D isn't a teaching tool to show the unwashed masses that fact, it's a gaming tool to let those unwashed masses play fantasy characters (has narrow minded as it may be) - and fantasy doesn't have to be politically correct.
In a game that is extremely europe-centric in it's view and concept, the only other nations that get some kind of representation are Asian Nations - Yes, it's pretty much only China and Japan, but that's a hell of a lot better than the representation that Africa or say, South America are getting. It's not an insult, it's a compliment - it means those concept are powerful and vivid enough (or at the very least, marketable enough) to imprint themselves on a generation of people that have nothing to do with them.
This is nitpicking at best.
Dictionary.com itself states under the term "Asian"
"Usage Note: Asia is the largest of the continents with more than half the world's population. Though strictly speaking all of its inhabitants are Asians, in practice this term is applied almost exclusively to the peoples of East, Southeast, and South Asia as opposed to those of Southwest Asia—such as Arabs, Turks, Iranians, and Kurds—who are more usually designated Middle or Near Easterners. Indonesians and Filipinos are properly termed Asian, since their island groups are considered part of the Asian continent, but not the Melanesians, Micronesians, and Polynesians of the central and southern Pacific, who are now often referred to collectively as Pacific Islanders."
Don't try to undermine the topic at hand with semantics like this.
Ditto to this that Aluman had to say.
You Ki comes from Asia, therefor all Ki classes should be Asian!
Extension of logic: The origins of the word have meaning in how they are used.
Me: Warlock means breaker of oath originally. Clearly indicating that wizards chooses words not for their meaning or origin as significant, but because of the Xth factor. In the west an early analog of the Ki belief (The belief that drives acupuncture and other ancient cures) is the Humor system of Hyppocratius.
What they call Ki can embody a lot of ancient Greek type ideals, because of this similarity.
Thank you to those who are trying to remain on topic, rather than attempt to somehow tear me down with semantics. Like I said, I'm looking for ideas here, not trying to be argumentative.
I agree with this sentiment, though I am concerned about it at the same time:
I'm afraid this will likely be a horse/cart or chicken/egg situation. In the end, we'll have little way of knowing the course of logic that WotC used to select the classes they will select. We can hope that they won't simply use "Asian" as a guideline here, but we'll just have to take their word for it.
I can see concepts like the Soulknife (though I would wonder why they'd separate it from Psi in the first place) or the "Streamer" (as Wizardmon dubbed it) falling into Ki. I'd be more inclined to call the "Streamer" something like "Channeller" or "Conduit" though. But let's keep the ideas coming.
Basically my opinion is: I believe Wizards has moved from the playground ideals of 'Ki means Asian which means AWESOME!' and understand that nearly all culture and historically recognized places have 'guy who has vast reserves of inner energy'
The French during WWI charged against machineguns because they believed that someone with enough moxy could EASILY overpower a machine gun. Were they right? No. Doesn't change what they believed.
Ki is simply a cool term for a style of archetype that existent in all cultures.
Hell the modern Action Hero exemplifies parts of Ki.
To say that this word comes form X so X must be where all ideals of the source are found, means that A). Martial/Divine/Arcane/Elemental/Shadow/Primal are all occidental in origins, thusly: No outsiders allowed.
B). Ki/Psi are Asian in origins, despite only representing two large areas (The 'orient' and 'india') of this vast contient of people who don't all share these beliefs, Anything that is Asian in origin is getting shoved into these two power sources.
This is the primary reason I charge those who state Ki = Asian as at the very least Accepting of racism.
I mean, really, monk is a western concept. Monk is an English word with Greek origins. How is that Asian? And yet, the default assumption for D&D monks is not "Religious Hermit," its "Martial arts guys who kill for the balance" or some such nonsense.
So yes, I'd like to see Ki classes with culture neutral names (No Samurai, please), but no matter what they are, they're going to be seen as Asian because of their power source.
Ok, so what kinds of classes could they do without using Chinese/Japanese names?
Monk, obviously.
Geomancer or Channeler would work for a Controller, but as soon as you give one of them the Ki power source, they're going to be Feng Shui masters.
Swordsage would be a fantastic name for a Ki Defender, or Warlord like leader, but it probably won't happen because of Tome of Battle, everyone is going to be thinking "Swordsage is a striker!"
Avatar would be a cool leader, and while Asian, its not Chinese or Japanese. If you wanted a Western (semi-)equivalent, you could use Incarnate (oops, well I'm not implying that it should be Incarnum or anything...3.5 will probably have killed that possibility too).
So I think there are options. However, in reality, I fully expect Samurai to be the Ki Defender (but come on, WotC, even Sohei would be a better name).
Ultimately, the classes are agglomerations of numbers with tacked on fluff. And not very strongly tacked on. Power source is one of those tacked on bits of fluff. Just change it if it bothers you.
edit: Come to think of it, I want my single-sword striker (whatever they end up calling it) to be powered by Bad-assery. That's right. How do I do that super-slashing-kill you stone dead-strike? Puuuure bad-assery.
Except this is game, not an tool to explore the various culture of the earth.
We've all been exposed to some degree of martial art movies and animes, the vast majority of them being either Chinese or Japanese. And a lot of us want to be able to create those concepts we've seen in those media in the game. So yes, we want Samurai, Ninja and Monks, even if they have nothing to do with the historical/cultural version.
While I'm sure Korea (for example) has rich folklore, great stories and quite possible more than enough material to warrant it's own power source worth of class in D&D... I can't say I really care about it. Nor do I really care about the cultural equivalent of class from Colombia, Tanzania or Yemen.
Is Asia only Japan and China? No. But D&D isn't a teaching tool to show the unwashed masses that fact, it's a gaming tool to let those unwashed masses play the fantasy character they have (has narrow minded as it may be).
I can agree with this. D&D is fantasy, and more importantly, it's fantasy that has to compete in a predominantly eurocentric (American) economy, so there's no real expectation that D&D will or should be "culturally objective" or whatever.
I suppose the part that sticks in my craw is how some folks seem to assume that since all the concepts we've associated with "ki" in fantasy games are "oriental" or "asian", those conceptual elements are wholly representative of "oriental" or "asian" fantasy; this is plainly false.
We've borrowed the idea of "ki" from Japanese (and to a lesser extent, Chinese) culture, or rather a parody thereof, in order to apply it to a fantasy game. There's nothing wrong with this. What's wrong is pretending that it's representative of "asian" fantasy in general. Since D&D's "Ki" doesn't represent anything or any cultural group realistically, I don't think it needs to nor should limit itself based upon real-world referents. In other words, since the Ki power source doesn't really represent "asian" cultural beliefs at all, why should it restrict itself to "asian" concepts?
Unfortunately, even though they are simple semantics for you, this is cultural identity for me. Filipinos are Asians; yet we have nothing to do with samurai, ninja, or even monks.
It is a simple request to stop isolating Asia to two countries, because to me, this "semantics" is pretty significant. I will gladly involve myself in discussions of how a samurai who charges at the speed of sound should rightly be ki; I just request, in return, for our racial identity to be respected. I do not know if you get it, but delegating Asian to mean these concepts alone is a constant insult to us.
So please. Let us freely discuss ki, but let us avoid the term to blanket Asians as a whole.
@tyrandor: I agree with your post, but not in its delivery. Case in point, seeing these three "archetypal oriental" classes in 4e would be a blast, and I for one would not try to inhibit their production in PHB3 at all. I am also not pushing for the inclusion of certain iconic Filipino mythologies to be included in DnD core; I can release that myself with the GSL.
And you are exactly right; DnD is not a geographical learning tool. As such, I would like to see a samurai alongside a rogue with a rapier. They are not divided by culture; they simply live in the same campaign world.
However, I fail to see why the inclusion of Japanese and Chinese folklore are a compliment to Asia as a whole. Perhaps it is a compliment to Chinese or Japanese (I can't speak for them), but they are, again, a small part of Asia.
So let me see if I could get back to the discussion. It's to make samurai, ninja, and monk sound less geographically dependent, right?
I personally think monk is okay as it is, thanks largely to the githzerai archetype.
Samurai, would fit in if renamed as Swordsage, as they said. Eventhough it was used in Tome of Battle, that's a fairly recent book in late 3.5, and I doubt it produced a specific mental image. I'd say re-use it. It works well with the "mystical bond with your weapon" theme, and it can even get rid of the samurai devotion to a daimyo.
Ninja - I'm stumped with this one. Shadowdancer, perhaps?
How about just calling them Samurai and ninja and monk? I kind of like them as they are. :D
@Tiddlywinks: I do not seek to undermine your discussion; in point of fact, I am in complete agreement with you; the ki power source will most likely have a certain cultural feel akin to that of Chinese and japanese traditions.
Unfortunately, even though they are simple semantics for you, this is cultural identity for me. Filipinos are Asians; yet we have nothing to do with samurai, ninja, or even monks.
It is a simple request to stop isolating Asia to two countries, because to me, this "semantics" is pretty significant. I will gladly involve myself in discussions of how a samurai who charges at the speed of sound should rightly be ki; I just request, in return, for our racial identity to be respected. I do not know if you get it, but delegating Asian to mean these concepts alone is a constant insult to us.
So please. Let us freely discuss ki, but let us avoid the term to blanket Asians as a whole.
beej_silver, I apologize if I offended you in my use of the term Asian.
I used that term mainly because it seemed to be the one that's been prevalent in all the other threads that have gone on tangents into this topic. It seemed that the discussion on the boards was using the term Asian with a clear intention of "Far East" as the rough definition, and more specifically meaning "feudal China/Japan" in flavor.
I admit that it didn't even cross my mind that this may come across as culturally insensitive, and I apologize for not taking that into consideration. I meant no offense.
@Tiddlywinks: I do not seek to undermine your discussion; in point of fact, I am in complete agreement with you; the ki power source will most likely have a certain cultural feel akin to that of Chinese and japanese traditions.
Unfortunately, even though they are simple semantics for you, this is cultural identity for me. Filipinos are Asians; yet we have nothing to do with samurai, ninja, or even monks.
It is a simple request to stop isolating Asia to two countries, because to me, this "semantics" is pretty significant. I will gladly involve myself in discussions of how a samurai who charges at the speed of sound should rightly be ki; I just request, in return, for our racial identity to be respected. I do not know if you get it, but delegating Asian to mean these concepts alone is a constant insult to us.
So please. Let us freely discuss ki, but let us avoid the term to blanket Asians as a whole.
@tyrandor: I agree with your post, but not in its delivery. Case in point, seeing these three "archetypal oriental" classes in 4e would be a blast, and I for one would not try to inhibit their production in PHB3 at all. I am also not pushing for the inclusion of certain iconic Filipino mythologies to be included in DnD core; I can release that myself with the GSL.
And you are exactly right; DnD is not a geographical learning tool. As such, I would like to see a samurai alongside a rogue with a rapier. They are not divided by culture; they simply live in the same campaign world.
However, I fail to see why the inclusion of Japanese and Chinese folklore are a compliment to Asia as a whole. Perhaps it is a compliment to Chinese or Japanese (I can't speak for them), but they are, again, a small part of Asia.
I think you and I are sorta on the same page here, beej. I think both of us are more interested in the words used to define the Ki power source than we are in the classes which may or may not be a part of that power source.
Terminology might seem insignificant to some, but the truth is that the words we use shape our understanding of the world. (Symbolic interactionism FTW) Thinking of "Ki" as meaning "Asian" changes peoples' understand of both words. Since the connection between these two words makes those folks' understanding potentially less accurate about something as important as culture, we want folks to be more careful about the words they use.
What's Ki might be Asian, but what's Asian is often not Ki. Therefore, Ki does not equal Asian.
@doctorhook: Yes, I do believe we similar views; we are both hopeful that when WotC defines ki, all classes under it will make as much sense as Primal did (at least, that's what I get from you). By defining ki as Asian, the concept for Asians as a whole changes for those who play the game, and that is what we're avoiding.
So, basically, if they make Samurai a ki class, it would be nice if it was because of a mystical soul-bond with their weapon, and not because of geographic identity alone (in this case Swordsage does fit perfectly; but it may conflict with Swordmage). It goes back to why they just didn't make the monk martial; some of the monk's later supernatural abilities are mystical in nature, and this is what I want from a ki class.
Ninjutsu, on the other hand, always sounded more arcane (or shadow) to me. There's nothing mystical about it; mysterious is a better word in my book.
In its early development, the D&D game was supplemented by various booklets, and in one of these the monk, inspired by Brian Blume and the book series called The Destroyer, was appended to the characters playable. So too was the cobbled-together martial arts specialist placed into the AD&D game system, even as it was being removed from the D&D game. In my opinion, the point certainly went to the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game players!
...The fact of the matter is that the admixture of Occident and Orient was an unsuitable combination. The games stressed a European historical base and mythology. Even though the AD&D game monster roster ranges far afield, it is still of basically European flavor. The whole of these game systems are Occidental in approach, not Oriental - at least not in the sense of what is known as the Far East; China, Korea, Japan, and Mongolia...
...As you develop your Oriental Adventures campaign, it is recommended that you remove the monk character class from the European-type campaigns. Why? Because what is found herein is superior and in the proper surroundings as well!
That's what Gary thought, in the intro to Oriental Adventures. What really gets me is that the original inspiration for the monk was the Remo Williams adventure series. Seriously! A cheap, cheesy 60's and 70's chop-socky martial arts ripoff of the Executioner books. There's hundreds of these books, it's hilarious.
Edit: Brian Blume was a guy who worked at D&D at the time - he must have liked the books.
It could mean that Ki is the power source for asian characters, who have asian facial features, asian names, live in places with asian like cultures, etc, etc, etc.
I can almost guarantee that won't be the case.
It could mean that Ki is the power source for character types popular in asian mythology.
I can almost guarantee that won't be the case either, because modern fantasy tends to be as influential in D&D, if not more so, than cultural myths.
Most likely, Ki will be the power source for the myths and popular fantasy tropes that originated primarily with asian martial arts mythology. But it won't be a direct read from several hundred year old myths. It will undoubtedly contain elements of the modern fantasy genre that descended from those myths. And the modern genre is no longer exclusively asian. Its got roots there, sure, and there's lots of it in asia- from anime, to wire-fu, to hong kong cinema, and more. But an awful lot of that sort of fantasy is produced elsewhere, and no longer has overt connections to asian culture. Take the Matrix, as an example. Its Hong Kong cinema and Wire-Fu done on a Hollywood budget for american sensibilities. The only overt reference to anything asian is the fact that the martial arts they practice are called out as being kung fu, albeit with guns and without an asian person in sight.
So to the extent that the above is what is meant by "ki is asian," then yeah, ki is asian. Its about as asian these days as the druid is Irish or the barbarian is Viking.
Except this is game, not an tool to explore the various culture of the earth.
We've all been exposed to some degree of martial art movies and animes, the vast majority of them being either Chinese or Japanese. And a lot of us want to be able to create those concepts we've seen in those media in the game. So yes, we want Samurai, Ninja and Monks, even if they have nothing to do with the historical/cultural version.
While I'm sure Korea (for example) has rich folklore, great stories and quite possible more than enough material to warrant it's own power source worth of class in D&D... I can't say I really care about it. Nor do I really care about the cultural equivalent of class from Colombia, Tanzania or Yemen.
Is Asia only Japan and China? No. But D&D isn't a teaching tool to show the unwashed masses that fact, it's a gaming tool to let those unwashed masses play fantasy characters (has narrow minded as it may be) - and fantasy doesn't have to be politically correct.
In a game that is extremely europe-centric in it's view and concept, the only other nations that get some kind of representation are Asian Nations - Yes, it's pretty much only China and Japan, but that's a hell of a lot better than the representation that Africa or say, South America are getting. It's not an insult, it's a compliment - it means those concept are powerful and vivid enough (or at the very least, marketable enough) to imprint themselves on a generation of people that have nothing to do with them.
I don't think D&D's (or the Ki power source's) primary intent is to be a cultural teaching tool, but just as such a view of the game would be unrealistic in its idealization it is also unrealistic to categorically deny that gaming as a medium has certain human effects. Your post outlines the elements of the issues here well. I think you are very aware of much of the situation, acknowledging that there are real world analogy particulars that you (and by extension, many gamers) do not want to study up on and that the game as is is very Euro-centric. IMHO, however, I think you draw the line too harshly in limiting what the development of the game should concern itself with. Ultimately, it is a very fine line. It is hard--perhaps even impossible--for anything to not be something-centric!
Aside
Personally, I am interested in D&D as "fantasy-centric" rather than "euro-fantasy-centric." Some feel the "euro" part is essential to D&D identity, so they might prefer that "d20" instead be the broader, more GURPSy core. I'm just not sure why anything beyond D&D is needed as opposed to simply new D&D settings. Just thinking outloud here.
Also, the Divine power source is oppressive to my atheist beliefs.
Also, Demons are horrendously offensive, and Tieflings mock the Christian faith by presenting obvious devil-figures as heroes. Asmodeus is clearly meant to be a personification of the Christian "Satan", ruling the 9th level of Hell, and in your game he murders a god, and ultimately becomes a god? Hello?
Also, Fighter is a terrible name for a class, or occupation. The name personifies violence.
Just saying... as long as we're going to be sensitive, we should probably look at some of the other stuff that, you know, might be seen as offensive.
BTW, I'm not saying that I'm offended by any of this. Just saying that there are a lot of other more sensitive issues than this, and WotC doesn't worry about offending people in regard to those, so they probably aren't going to care too much about the "Eastern" powers being all Ki-based, and Japan/China centric.
Barbarian is also an offensive term. We should get rid of it. Calling indigenous peoples "Barbarians" is oppressive, colonialist, and disgusting.
Also, the Divine power source is oppressive to my atheist beliefs.
Also, Demons are horrendously offensive, and Tieflings mock the Christian faith by presenting obvious devil-figures as heroes. Asmodeus is clearly meant to be a personification of the Christian "Satan", ruling the 9th level of Hell, and in your game he murders a god, and ultimately becomes a god? Hello?
Also, Fighter is a terrible name for a class, or occupation. The name personifies violence.
Just saying... as long as we're going to be sensitive, we should probably look at some of the other stuff that, you know, might be seen as offensive.
BTW, I'm not saying that I'm offended by any of this. Just saying that there are a lot of other more sensitive issues than this, and WotC doesn't worry about offending people in regard to those, so they probably aren't going to care too much about the "Eastern" powers being all Ki-based, and Japan/China centric.
No kidding. If you (the general 'you', not you Kaldric) are offended by the possibility that ki might be 'the Asian power source', you are *way* to freaking PC and sensitive.
Amazingly well put!! At this point I think:
A) The Ki power source will be broadened in scope and flavor to include something like Incarnum,
B) Ki classes will all be Japan-flavored classes with other Asiany classes falling naturally into other power sources, or
C) Ki classes may end up as all martial artsy classes, perhaps pulling from many different traditions beyond Japanese and Chinese.
Personally I like option A, with option C a respectable second. However, for those critical of A I do acknowledge that it would seem to make the name "Ki Power Source" kind of odd at first glance.
Interesting thoughts. :D I like "A" as well, and I keep hearing that Incarnum is an ideal expansion for ki.
However, I must admit to a fault here - I only halfheartedly tried to read incarnum, and then I discarded it immediately because of it's difficult-to-grasp mechanics.
So, a request (I seem to be making a lot of these today): Can anyone tell me how incarnum and all those chakra stuff functioned flavorwise?Interesting thoughts. :D I like "A" as well, and I keep hearing that Incarnum is an ideal expansion for ki.
Incarnum isn't really. When you get down to it Incarnum was just a test bed for a new magic item system that just didn't pan out.
However, I must admit to a fault here - I only halfheartedly tried to read incarnum, and then I discarded it immediately because of it's difficult-to-grasp mechanics.
Flavorwise? Don't really know, but mechanically:
Incarnates and Soulborn are alternate versions of Clerics and Paladins dedicated to an alignment rather than a god.
Totemists were warriors who tapped into the power of various creatures, pretty much what the PH2 Warden is.
All 3 could use a special set of built in magical items called Soulmelds that used a new set of slots called Chakras that mirrored the standard ones. They could enhance each Soulmeld by determining how much power went to each one and at later levels make them even stronger by not using a magic item that would have used the associated "real" slot.
Edit:
The 4th Edition Player's Handbook states the following on Ki.
"...monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki)..."
In the same paragraph it states that Ki is, in fact, going to be a power source.
Not "soul energy."
Not "soul."
Ki.
The term Ki itself is Asian.
Soulborn
Incarnate
Totemist
All soul fueled. Ki is the power of souls in 4e, Incarnum was in 3e so there :P
However, I must admit to a fault here - I only halfheartedly tried to read incarnum, and then I discarded it immediately because of it's difficult-to-grasp mechanics.
I don't really remember the chakra stuff too well, but the generic idea of incarnum was that it was the power of all souls(or it might have been all souls that have yet to be born, I forgot which). Incarnum users were those who borrowed the power of those souls to create items that contained the "essence" of those souls allowing them to draw upon the abilities that the soul would eventually have in life.....or something like that.
Soulborn
A LG/CG/LE/CE champion? Sounds like a Paladin.
Incarnate
As Soulborn except NG/NE/LN/CN.
Totemist
Look at the Warden.
All soul fueled. Ki is the power of souls in 4e, Incarnum was in 3e so there :P
Micha stop deluding yourself. Just because something was 3.X does not mean it will be in 4e. If this wasn't true where are the vastly more popular Book of Nine Swords classes?
Micha stop deluding yourself. Just because something was 3.X does not mean it will be in 4e. If this wasn't true where are the vastly more popular Book of Nine Swords classes?
We like to call those the Phb classes.
The Phb classes -ate - Tome Of Battle.
Just like Ki ate Incarnum.
It doesn't have to be "AZNZZ MARTIAL" (Like I suspect it most likely will be), it could very well own up to it's own fluff and have clearly non asian themed classes contained within it. And even then providing the classes are well designed and not simply Azn Martial (see below for class examples) then I'd be fine with that. Providing I got the impression that they actually used the power of souls.
I will mail bomb Wizards or something if they make a Samurai or Ninja class.. Because those are just fighters or rogues.
Stuff like Sensei though? Um, sensei's were like teachers and stuff... how does that warrant it's own class? Things like that probably wont be ki at all. Heck they probably wont be made, mostly because what I think people are wanting out of soemthing named "sensei" is an asian warlord... and we already have warlord...
Anyways yeah. Either they start inventing some enirely new classes altogether or they're slapping things that don't make sense into Ki anyways. Asian Shugenjas use elements... while it can be argues that it comes from elemental gods... kami, it's still kinda arcane.
Really I just think it's going to be harder and harder to fit things into the ever-growing list of power-sources as time goes by, this is just the start.
also this will probably all get edited later on, as i'm really freakin' tired while posting it, I probably rambled about nothing.... but yeah
- The 9th Kami Fu Le... er... Luneth Hireydin
First Edit:
I will mail bomb Wizards or something if they make a Samurai or Ninja class.. Because those are just fighters or rogues.
Well I totally agree here.
and also... Ssshhhh..... they have spies in our midst....
EDIT #2: Yep. I just realized something. Why would wizards suck power sources into each other? the more sources there are the more PH's they print the more money they make. Seems like a plan I wouldn't doubt any company from doing.
We like to call those the Phb classes.
The Phb classes -ate - Tome Of Battle.
That is only partially true. Desert Wind, Setting Sun and Shadow Hand have not yet been "updated."
Just like Ki ate Incarnum.
Prove this. Beyond a mention of "soul energy" in PH1, where in DMG, MM, FRCS, FRPG, AV, MP, D:CD, MoP or OG has this even been implied? Nowhere.
It doesn't have to be "AZNZZ MARTIAL" (Like I suspect it most likely will be), it could very well own up to it's own fluff and have clearly non asian themed classes contained within it. And even then providing the classes are well designed and not simply Azn Martial (see below for class examples) then I'd be fine with that. Providing I got the impression that they actually used the power of souls.
AZN Martial!?!? Would you please quit calling it that. That is possibly the most offensive thing to call it. It basically says that anyone who would like it that way is an AZN fanboy and does not deserve to play D&D.
I understand you don't like the idea that Ki is most likely going to be based off of the Wuxia style martial arts showcased in many Hong Kong action movies and Anime action series, but that doesn't mean that the same is true of most D&D players. There are plenty of archetypes currently unavailable to play that would fit perfectly in the Ki power source without you trying to cram Incarnum into it just because you don't like that most of the Archetypes it would cover come from outside the European subcontinent!
I will mail bomb Wizards or something if they make a Samurai or Ninja class.. Because those are just fighters or rogues.
Just Fighters and Rogues? Lets see a Fighter or Rogue do the following things:
- Stop an opponent from moving by nailing their opponents shadow to the ground.
- Create a blade of wind that cuts things 20 feet away with a sword slash.
- Create a dozen doppelgangers of themselves.
- Cut a tree in half with a twig.
- Breath fire.
- Launch a fire bird shaped blast of energy from their sword.
- An aura of such icy calm that it actually freezes things.
- So much control over their bodies that they can reattach or regrow limbs.
Plus threatening to do physical damage to people and things because you don't like the thought of something being included just tells people that you should not be listened to.
There's nothing there that Martial really doesn't cover already.
And quite a few of those things would not even fit within one powersource as it is.
Actually quite a bit of that fits under the Elemental and Shadow power source in theme more so than Ki, from the description we have been given so far.
- Stop an opponent from moving by nailing their opponents shadow to the ground. "Knocking prone reflavoured" or use the SHADOW PS
- Create a blade of wind that cuts things 20 feet away with a sword slash.
Multiclass Swordmage- Create a dozen doppelgangers of themselves. ok you got me here
- Cut a tree in half with a twig. ????
- Breath fire. Be a Dragonborn, Multiclass Sorcererer/Wizard/Swordmage
- Launch a fire bird shaped blast of energy from their sword.
Swordmage- An aura of such icy calm that it actually freezes things.
MC Arcane Class- So much control over their bodies that they can reattach or regrow limbs.
Multiclass Cleric/Warlord/Bard
Ok it's streching it but i don't see why Samurai should be able to to this. Rename this class something other but don't call it Samurai. Samurai are fighters and not mystical swordsman. It destroys the honor of Samurai when you make them "Anime Fighters" (i like anime fights, i just don't want Samurai to be like that). Ninja should be a Shadow PC Class i think and i hope there will be no "Naruto Ninjas" (i love naruto)
Where do I begin with this...
Does that mean if I crash into something with my stereotypical driving skills as an Asian, I'm using my Ki power to do it?
Ninja should NOT be Ki... It should be a Rogue-like Shadow Striker.
Samurai, Sohei and Monk are the only three classes that should be Ki from OA. Samurai a Defender, Sohei a Leader, and ...well...Monk a Striker of course..
Wu Jen should be an Elemental Controller and Shugenja an Elemental too but, I'm unsure what role...most likely Striker.
Ki isn't an all asian source but seems to convey Japanese/Chinese origin to most western people so I think that that's what it will be in general.
Barbarian is also an offensive term. We should get rid of it. Calling indigenous peoples "Barbarians" is oppressive, colonialist, and disgusting.
"Barbarian" doesn't refer to a specific culture or group of cultures anymore in our language; it's a relative term, because anybody can be somebody else's "barbarian". OTOH, "Asian" specifically refers to a group of real-world peoples and cultures.
Also, the Divine power source is oppressive to my atheist beliefs.
D&D is a fantasy game, where the existence of divinities is a matter of fact rather, than faith. In such a world, I'm not sure that atheism is even relevant.
Also, Demons are horrendously offensive, and Tieflings mock the Christian faith by presenting obvious devil-figures as heroes. Asmodeus is clearly meant to be a personification of the Christian "Satan", ruling the 9th level of Hell, and in your game he murders a god, and ultimately becomes a god? Hello?
As for as demons go, I can't help you, but if you're gonna be upset about demons, you might as well be upset about magic and the notion of false gods. This one is tough to compare with the issues which we are discussing here surrounding the term "Asian".
As far as "devil-figures as heroes mocking the Christian faith" goes, one ought to consider that the notions of redemption and forgiveness for everyone are central idea to Christianity. In a fantasy world, there's no reason that idea couldn't be applied even to devil-folk.
Also, Fighter is a terrible name for a class, or occupation. The name personifies violence.
lol If you're gonna worry about violence in D&D, there's a heck of a lot more than the name "Fighter" that you're gonna need to change.
Just saying... as long as we're going to be sensitive, we should probably look at some of the other stuff that, you know, might be seen as offensive.
BTW, I'm not saying that I'm offended by any of this. Just saying that there are a lot of other more sensitive issues than this, and WotC doesn't worry about offending people in regard to those, so they probably aren't going to care too much about the "Eastern" powers being all Ki-based, and Japan/China centric.
Ok it's streching it but i don't see why Samurai should be able to to this.
Actually the list was a mishmash of abilities various fantasy ninja and samurai have had or developed over the years and I put it up to counter Cpt_Micha's belief that Samurai and Ninja were just Fighters and Rogues with Japanese names.
Rename this class something other but don't call it Samurai. Samurai are fighters and not mystical swordsman. It destroys the honor of Samurai when you make them "Anime Fighters" (i like anime fights, i just don't want Samurai to be like that).
Take that up with the Japanese then. They have been doing this as far back as the 70s if not longer. :P
Ninja should be a Shadow PC Class i think and i hope there will be no "Naruto Ninjas" (i love naruto)
I would prefer I they did not focus on one specific form of ninja and try to cover as many of the different versions as possible. Mystical ninjas are an old and strongly entrenched archetype in Japan. Naruto did not introduce any new ninja techniques or styles (well the Rasengan maybe, but that sort of ki manipulation already existed in Dragonball and Street Fighter over a decade before) just took and put them all in a giant mixing bowl and stirred.
Praion, considering that you are the poster that posts about wanting Kicarnum, what do you mean by that? What new stuff do you think Incarnum would bring to the Ki power source, and why would that be a good thing? I can't really see anything positive that would come of it. Incarnates and Soulborn are just divine characters with new mechanics and Totemists were just a prelude to primal characters.
I certainly find the idea of segregating all classes and character concepts of Asian origin into the Ki power source offensive.
Where do I begin with this...
Does that mean if I crash into something with my stereotypical driving skills as an Asian, I'm using my Ki power to do it?
Nobody is saying that.
People ARE saying that the Ki power source should be reserved for things traditionally associated with Ki, and not mangled into something that no longer resembles mythological or modern fantastical representations of Ki.
That doesn't mean that all characters with asian trappings have to play Ki classes. It doesn't mean that all characters who play Ki classes have to live in pagodas and talk in racist accents.
Of course it doesn't mean those things.
It does mean that there will probably be some thematic connections between Ki classes and what we've been calling asian mythology and tropes. But rest assured, it will be thoroughly D&D-ized, with drow ninja assassinating minotaur samurai and dueling on rooftops with githzerai monks.
Ok it's streching it but i don't see why Samurai should be able to to this. Rename this class something other but don't call it Samurai. Samurai are fighters and not mystical swordsman. It destroys the honor of Samurai when you make them "Anime Fighters" (i like anime fights, i just don't want Samurai to be like that). Ninja should be a Shadow PC Class i think and i hope there will be no "Naruto Ninjas" (i love naruto)
This illustrates the other problem with certain classes, especially Samurai and Ninja: these concepts have been treated in so many different ways (mostly not historically accurate, either) that when someone mentions the word "Samurai", often people will associate completely different concepts with the idea, which might only be similar in that they both include a Japanese guy with a sword. We're using the same term to describe what might be four or more distinct class concepts, each one hoping to be the one actually named "Samurai". You can see the proof of all this in 3E, where the term "Samurai" and "Ninja" were each ascribed to a handful of different classes and prestige classes, each one with a distinct concept.
The problem, of course, is deciding which concept to use. The historically accurate meanings might not be suitable; "Samurai as noble status" doesn't really fit the nature of classes (no pun intended) in D&D, while "Samurai as a warrior-profession" is mostly redundant with the Fighter class. There's a few distinct "mystical Samurai" concepts too. (For example, a warrior who channels the soul of his sword and the spirits of those he has defeated with it.) Which of these concept WotC would choose as the basis of a Samurai class -- if they even decide to make one -- I am ambivalent towards, so long as it's distinct and interesting. The exact same issues apply to any Ninja class WotC might publish, although my personal favorite concept is much more clear: I want the Ninja to be a Shadow Striker, as I believe that this most closely approximates the part where the various Ninja-concepts overlap.
Nobody is saying that.
People ARE saying that the Ki power source should be reserved for things traditionally associated with Ki, and not mangled into something that no longer resembles mythological or modern fantastical representations of Ki.
That doesn't mean that all characters with asian trappings have to play Ki classes. It doesn't mean that all characters who play Ki classes have to live in pagodas and talk in racist accents.
Of course it doesn't mean those things.
It does mean that there will probably be some thematic connections between Ki classes and what we've been calling asian mythology and tropes. But rest assured, it will be thoroughly D&D-ized, with drow ninja assassinating minotaur samurai and dueling on rooftops with githzerai monks.
The problem is that there is no consensus about "the things traditionally associated with Ki". This is in addition to the fact that it gets mislabelled as being representative of "Asian fantasy", when it actually only represents a fraction of "Asian culture" -themed fantasy.
Since folks mostly can't agree upon exactly what Ki should be, and because it doesn't accurately represent anything with a historical or mythical basis, why shouldn't it define itself by incorporating new ideas into itself?
So, if we were running a forum pool, I'd have my bet on at lest two new classes in the ki power source. I think that the iconic three have a good chance of making a foray into this edition (monk already being confirmed), but I'm almost positive that ninja will be in a different power source (shadow or elemental, but I'm betting shadow). My bets on the samurai are probably my long shot bets, so I'll leave them for the other threads that I've already posted to. Most of the other "Japanese" based classes probably won't make it into a PHB, but might grace the pages of an "Oriental Adventures" supplement (if wizards makes one, but it'd be after all the other power sources are revealed so that the classes can be spread out and not all pushed into the ki power source).
As far as betting on what the new classes will be, my best guess so far is that the ki leader will be called an "Infuser." He or she could infuse his/her soul with those on the battle field bolstering allies and making enemies easier to hit. My second guess for a new ki class would be for the defender. I don't have a prediction on the name besides "Soulshield" or "Linker", but those sound forced and kind of hokey. I see the marking ability of this class being some sort of soul link that can hamper movement and deny attacks. Anyway, I think that Wizards will "surprise" everyone when they come up with all new classes with new names although we should expect as much now since we've already seen it twice.
Ok it's streching it but i don't see why Samurai should be able to to this. Rename this class something other but don't call it Samurai. Samurai are fighters and not mystical swordsman. It destroys the honor of Samurai when you make them "Anime Fighters" (i like anime fights, i just don't want Samurai to be like that). Ninja should be a Shadow PC Class i think and i hope there will be no "Naruto Ninjas" (i love naruto)
In all seriousness, have you ever read 'Romance of the Three Kingdom' or any other chinese period piece? What about japanese ones?
A lot of chinese folklore heroes do thing that are literally impossible and dwarfed even the feats of modern anime characters. Hell, have you ever heard tales of how accurate a Mongolian horse archers was supposed to be? Seriously, Legolas can go home.
An american company creating a Samurai class with Ki-shout, Ki-power and some kind of special Ki-Bond to his weapon doesn't insult the class - since the Japanese have been doing similar stuff for a couple hundred years already...
It really sounds to me that a lot of people here just dislike the oriental fantasy concept and are trying to mask that by saying it'd be racism to label said concept under one word. Weird case of projection.
The funny thing is, my homebrew world doesn't even include an oriental section yet, it's extremely 'europe-centric' and it will remain so unless the players ever decide to explore the edge of the maps and discover something else... I have no need for 'oriental' concepts, because they won't fit my game at all, I'm in fact heavily considering not buying the PH3. Yet I understand why a lot of people WANT those concepts.
In other words, since the Ki power source doesn't really represent "asian" cultural beliefs at all, why should it restrict itself to "asian" concepts?
Because a vast majority of D&D players will buy a book dubbed as 'Source Material for Ki Heroes' and expect monk, samurai and ninja.
Marketing > Everything.
beej_silver - How about the term 'oriental' or 'eastern' instead of asian?
People ARE saying that the Ki power source should be reserved for things traditionally associated with Ki, and not mangled into something that no longer resembles mythological or modern fantastical representations of Ki.
Have we actually done that with any of the power sources? Outside of the 4ed mind set when someone says primal, are the things that come into your mind really a shaman, a druid, a barbarian, and a warden? Are D&D shamans really anything like mythological shamans? Are they even anything like modern fantasy shamans? I mean sure they do communicate with spirits, but have you ever read a shaman doing anything similair to what the shaman powers have been shown to do? Outside of D&D does such a broad concept of "arcane magic" really exist? I mean the guy who plays a lute and the guy who makes deals with the devil get their power from the same place? The guy who makes magic flash grenades(note I don't know if that is an actual artificer power, but just go with it) gets his powers from the same place as the guy who sneezes and accidently blows up a building?
Is the guy who wields a giant two handed sword in full plate really traditionally associated with a guy who has sticky fingers? A person who wanders the wilderness is traditionally associated with a person who leads a battallion of soldiers into battle?
The only power source that I'll maybe give you is divine. And that is only because the term paladin has been repurposed to mean the divine warrior. Originally, it had nothing to do with that, so traditionally the association between cleric and paladin wasn't present. It only exists now because D&D created the association many many years ago.
So when none of the current power sources except for divine really follow those rules, why should ki be forced to?
Because a vast majority of D&D players will buy a book dubbed as 'Source Material for Ki Heroes' and expect monk, samurai and ninja.
Marketing > Everything.
I agree with you about marketing; it's powerful. However, I don't agree with the assertion that most D&Ders will necessarily buy the Ki power source and expect to receive classes called "Monk", "Samurai", and "Ninja", because I don't think there's any evidence of that. Personally, I think it's more likely that players will buy classes called "Monk", "Samurai", and "Ninja", and perhaps expect to receive the Ki power source.
The difference is focus. A player who wants the Ki power source and expects it to include a Ninja class might not be disappointed when he finds that it doesn't, because what he was really interested in was the Ki power source, not the names of its components. OTOH, a player who wants a Ninja class and expects it to be a part of the Ki power source might not be disappointed when he find that it's actually Shadow (for argument's sake), because he got what he really wanted: a class called "Ninja".
The point is that expectations are highly subjective, and there's no proof that most people really do expect or want these classes to be Ki classes. I speculate that in a lot of cases, the folks supporting the notion of Ki Samurais and Ki Ninjas haven't really thought about what they're expecting those classes to actually do, and so are simply (mis)labeling them according to what seems vaguely related.
How about the term 'oriental' or 'eastern' instead of asian?
"Sino-Japanese" would be more accurate. Or "pseudo-Zen".
The problem is that there is no consensus about "the things traditionally associated with Ki". This is in addition to the fact that it gets mislabelled as being representative of "Asian fantasy", when it actually only represents a fraction of "Asian culture" -themed fantasy.
Since folks mostly can't agree upon exactly what Ki should be, and because it doesn't accurately represent anything with a historical or mythical basis, why shouldn't it define itself by incorporating new ideas into itself?
The fact that complete consensus does not exist does not mean that no meaning can be ascribed to the word "Ki."
I'm pretty sure there's an actual logical fallacy with an official name and everything that describes that argument. I know its an excluded middle, but I think there's a more specific one. I can't remember it though. Maybe I'm thinking of Loki's Wager, though this isn't a pure form of it.
The same applies to Ranadiel's post. Ranadiel- I will give you your argument only to the extent that Primal isn't a mythological energy. There aren't cultures out there with a rich history of Primal power because no one used the word in that way. There are, however, stories and popular fantasies featuring shapeshifters, wielders of nature magics, men who commune with the spirits, and feral warriors, and it makes sense to call them Primal.
So, if WOTC wanted to create a Soul Energy power source, and smush in tropes traditionally associated with Ki, fine. I wouldn't like it (seriously, soul energy?), but at least it wouldn't be mislabeled- Soul Energy would clearly be a completely made up thing, and in D&D land, the people who made it up could define it as they like.
But don't create a Ki power source and smush in glowy blue energy consisting of the souls of unborn children. Thats not what Ki has ever meant to anyone in the history of sentient life on this planet.
Monk: Ki Striker. Basic martial arts guy, light armor, bossibly some ranged "ki-blast" powers
Sohei: Ki Defender. Swordsage/mystic samurai, has a mystic bond with his weapon, goes around in cloth/light armor. Mirrors the Arcane Swordmage by being more about mobility and close bursts than range and blasts.
Avatar: Ki Leader. Steals a few Incarnum concepts to affect other people's souls (?)
Incarnate: Ki Controller. Channeler/geomancer/feng shui artist
What are peoples thoughts on this?
Oh and for completeness sake:
Ninja- Shadow striker (shadowdancer?) paragon path
"Naruto ninja"- Elemetal power source multiclass
Ninja- Martial Controler
Samari- Elemental Striker
Monk- Shadow Leader...
trust me :D
So, if my reading of this thread is anywhere near correct...
Monk: Ki Striker. Basic martial arts guy, light armor, bossibly some ranged "ki-blast" powers
Sohei: Ki Defender. Swordsage/mystic samurai, has a mystic bond with his weapon, goes around in cloth/light armor. Mirrors the Arcane Swordmage by being more about mobility and close bursts than range and blasts.
Avatar: Ki Leader. Steals a few Incarnum concepts to affect other people's souls (?)
Incarnate: Ki Controller. Channeler/geomancer/feng shui artist
What are peoples thoughts on this?
Oh and for completeness sake:
Ninja- Shadow striker (shadowdancer?) paragon path
"Naruto ninja"- Elemetal power source multiclass
Actually, I quite like this. "Avatar" is a good name for a non-Asian name for a potential Ki class.
Actually yes. Some Native American, African and even European shamans were supposedly able to imbue their tribes warriors with the various spirits of nature. Some Norse warriors explained their frenzies by saying they were taken over by the spirits of the bearskins they wore.
Outside of D&D does such a broad concept of "arcane magic" really exist? I mean the guy who plays a lute and the guy who makes deals with the devil get their power from the same place? The guy who makes magic flash grenades(note I don't know if that is an actual artificer power, but just go with it) gets his powers from the same place as the guy who sneezes and accidently blows up a building?
Yes. The less Politically Correct term people used to use was Black Magic. No matter how you got your magic, be it through birth, book learning, natural talent or given to you by a mysterious being, if it was not holy white magic given by God it was "arcane" black magic.
Is the guy who wields a giant two handed sword in full plate really traditionally associated with a guy who has sticky fingers? A person who wanders the wilderness is traditionally associated with a person who leads a battallion of soldiers into battle?
Not with the descriptions you used, but yes. The people who won fights by on skill of blade and bow, acrobatic ability and tactical genius were all called warriors.
The only power source that I'll maybe give you is divine. And that is only because the term paladin has been repurposed to mean the divine warrior. Originally, it had nothing to do with that, so traditionally the association between cleric and paladin wasn't present. It only exists now because D&D created the association many many years ago.
The link between Knight and God is actually pretty old and one of the core knightly virtues.
So when none of the current power sources except for divine really follow those rules, why should ki be forced to?
The fact that complete consensus does not exist does not mean that no meaning can be ascribed to the word "Ki."
I'm pretty sure there's an actual logical fallacy with an official name and everything that describes that argument. I know its an excluded middle, but I think there's a more specific one. I can't remember it though. Maybe I'm thinking of Loki's Wager, though this isn't a pure form of it.
The same applies to Ranadiel's post. Ranadiel- I will give you your argument only to the extent that Primal isn't a mythological energy. There aren't cultures out there with a rich history of Primal power because no one used the word in that way. There are, however, stories and popular fantasies featuring shapeshifters, wielders of nature magics, men who commune with the spirits, and feral warriors, and it makes sense to call them Primal.
So, if WOTC wanted to create a Soul Energy power source, and smush in tropes traditionally associated with Ki, fine. I wouldn't like it (seriously, soul energy?), but at least it wouldn't be mislabeled- Soul Energy would clearly be a completely made up thing, and in D&D land, the people who made it up could define it as they like.
But don't create a Ki power source and smush in glowy blue energy consisting of the souls of unborn children. Thats not what Ki has ever meant to anyone in the history of sentient life on this planet.
I'm willing to accept that some -- maybe even most -- of Incarnum isn't thematically appropriate for the Ki power source. However, I still firmly believe that Ki needs to look beyond the notion of, "We're all Buddhist monks!" for inspiration.
KI as some posters in this thread would want it to have, would have a far too narrow band of appeal.
You can't do that when you're making -universal- rules. You have to broaden it, specifically so you don't have "No ASIA dms" having to say no to the Phb III. Just like the Divine classes cover monotheistic, as well as polytheistic, and Faith Powered Divine Champions all equally well. The same has been done for Martial already, and the same will have to be done with Ki.
Furthermore you don't make it seem like some kind of lame parody that "Oh because they are asian they can't use martial classes!" or some such Bs. Or that "because they are asian they have to be different!".
PHB III is NOT going to be Oriental Adventures. The Phb III is a CORE RULE set, that is supposed to be usable with -all- settings.
Thus Ki isn't going to be stuck with being Asian only, if Wizards has even half a brain.
So, if my reading of this thread is anywhere near correct...
Monk: Ki Striker. Basic martial arts guy, light armor, bossibly some ranged "ki-blast" powers
Sohei: Ki Defender. Swordsage/mystic samurai, has a mystic bond with his weapon, goes around in cloth/light armor. Mirrors the Arcane Swordmage by being more about mobility and close bursts than range and blasts.
Avatar: Ki Leader. Steals a few Incarnum concepts to affect other people's souls (?)
Incarnate: Ki Controller. Channeler/geomancer/feng shui artist
What are peoples thoughts on this?
Oh and for completeness sake:
Ninja- Shadow striker (shadowdancer?) paragon path
"Naruto ninja"- Elemetal power source multiclass
I wouldn't mind this set up, although to me the Controller should be the Avatar and the Leader should be the Incarnate. (That is, Incarnate keeps the psuedo-Incarnum stuff and the Avatar is the Channeler/Geomancer/Feng Shui Artist.)
I also wouldn't mind if the Sohei was called Samurai instead, as I think the name Samurai is more easily recognizable.
On Ninja = Shadow Striker, I think that is pretty likely.
My beliefs on the other classes from Oriental Adventures are that the Shugenja will end up being the Elemental Leader and the Wu Jen will be the Elemental Controller. The other classes probably will not make an appearance.
I'm willing to accept that some -- maybe even most -- of Incarnum isn't thematically appropriate for the Ki power source. However, I still firmly believe that Ki needs to look beyond the notion of, "We're all Buddhist monks!" for inspiration.
This.
I'm willing to accept that some -- maybe even most -- of Incarnum isn't thematically appropriate for the Ki power source. However, I still firmly believe that Ki needs to look beyond the notion of, "We're all Buddhist monks!" for inspiration.
I completely agree with that.
That being said, the places that should be looked to for inspiration should be ones which are recognizably Ki. Someone with minimal knowledge of D&D should be able to hear, "The [X] class is in the Ki power source," and think, "Oh, that makes sense." That doesn't mean that the classes necessarily have to be the traditional asian D&D classes like the ninja and the samurai. It does mean that, once you understand what the class does, it should register as a Ki class. You shouldn't have to digest some weird new definition of Ki in order for it to make sense.
I think the problem is that most people look at their favorite classes from past editions and try to push them into what they think Wizards of the Coast feels is the ki power source. When looking at what has been done with the other power sources, I suspect that at least two ki classes will have entirely new names (like the warden, invoker, avenger, and warlord did - although warlord might have been in an obscure source book . . .).
Things probably aren't as new as they appear.
[INDENT]Martial: Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue are all obviously old hats, but Warlord was around in 3.5 as well (known as Marshals from the somewhat miss-named Miniatures Handbook). They've all picked up some new tricks. Ranger and Rogue ganged up on the Scout and took his stuff, while the Fighter and new re-titled Warlord divided up the Warblade (Book of the Nine Swords).
Divine: Cleric and Paladin are familiar faces and after you look past the name so is the Invoker (it's mostly made out of the parts of the Cleric that got left on the cutting room floor). Avenger is mostly new, excluding a handful of prestige classes.
Arcane: Warlock, Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, Artificer; I'm not seeing anything new here. All of them were around in 3.5 or before. The only semi-new arcane class is Swordmage, but it's archetype has been around since the dawn of D&D in the original Elf class and has remained ever since in most any fighter/wizard multiclass.
Primal: Druid, Barbarian, and Shaman aren't new to D&D. As for the Warden, it's largely made out of stuff the Druid had to lose in the 4E transition, along with some aspects of the Totemist (Magic of Incarnum).[/INDENT]
Out of 18 classes I count only one that I would consider to be truly new (the Avenger), so I entirely expect to see the Samurai and Ninja return in both name and concept, though not necessarily in the Ki power source (in fact I hope ninja is shadow). As concepts they simply have too much prominence in the collective consciousness to be ignored.
As for Incarnum stuff. I could see portions of it used to expand the Ki classes. I could even see one (and only one) class presenting itself with almost entirely incarnum based fluff, however, as a fan of (Magic of Incarnum) I would prefer incarnum remained semi-distinct from Ki. However, having recently recognized that the Totemist has to some degree already been assimilated into the Primal power source, I would not be surprised if most of the rest of incarnum got gobbled up by Ki, but this is one case were I'd rather not see the Reeses effect applied.
Actually, I quite like this. "Avatar" is a good name for a non-Asian name for a potential Ki class.
Since I also quite like it, and suggested it in the first place, I just want to point out that Avatar is an Asian name, as its originally a Sanskrit word.
India has a lot to contribute to the concept of Ki as well, you know, and in fact was the driving myth culture behind the Incarnum book. Yes, Hiduism never called it "Ki" but it has the same concept.
Furthermore, I'd like to bring up a controversial historical possibility:
Ki ≅ Prana and both, when you consider mastery of your own Ki/Prana leads to personal excellence (ala the Monk class), can be roughly equated to Arete.
Alexander the Great conquered quite a bit of Asia, and most notably, large chunks of India. Greek millitary martial arts (such as Pankration) may well have been the basis for a large portion of Asian martial arts. Almost every lock, throw, or takedown depicted on ancient greek pottery bears strong (near identical) similarities to techniques found in Eastern martial arts. It does bear mentioning that it may have been that both cultures independently discovered the same manuevers due simply to the mechanics of the human body, but it seems so unlikely considering that the cultures did indeed have contact.
Anyway, this would mean that the mythical prowess attributed to Rama, Guan Yu, Takeda Shingen, and even Achilles or Hector could all be due to the same power source: Ki (though obviously all could also be considered Martial, which seems to be a struggle the developers are having as well).
Ok, so even though Ki could be broad, it probably won't be, and thats fine, too. I'd be perfectly happy with some Hindu influence in the Ki power source, which would bring along with it the "baggage" of Incarnum, despite explicitly not using Incarnum mechanics (which I loved, by the way, despite the fact that it was generally weak). Honestly, though, Ki is the source least interesting to me (unless I'm correct about the heavy Aura mechanics in the Avatar/Ki Leader class), so despite the fact that I'd rather not have a class called "Samurai," anything will be ultimately fine by me.
Side Note
(Er, scratch that. I'm least interested in Psionics. Ki is a close second though, followed by Shadow. Of the remaining sources, I'm only intrigued by Elemental, as I can't imagine how they'd differentiate it from Divine. Frankly, I would be perfectly happy to run D&D with only three power sources: Martial, Divine, and Primal. Shocked you, didn't it, that I didn't say Arcane?).
Actually, I quite like this. "Avatar" is a good name for a non-Asian name for a potential Ki class.
I'll disagree with that if only because I see it like asking for a lawsuit on copyrgiht infringement.:P
Yes. The less Politically Correct term people used to use was Black Magic. No matter how you got your magic, be it through birth, book learning, natural talent or given to you by a mysterious being, if it was not holy white magic given by God it was "arcane" black magic.
Playing a lute was black magic?
:P And if we are going to use the definition of arcane magic as "black magic", then why are there more power sources then just arcane, divine, and martial? Necromancy, I don't think anything exemplifies the idea of non divine magic more, and it isn't arcane. The bulk of illusion magic, not arcane(yes I know there are some illusion powers, but they are supposedly saving the majority for later). Shamanistic practices, those were most certainly considered to be witchcraft and other such things, once again not arcane. Arcane as black magic just doesn't work.Not with the descriptions you used, but yes. The people who won fights by on skill of blade and bow, acrobatic ability and tactical genius were all called warriors.
They might have been called warriors, but if we are to be technical, a mage who obliterates a battalion with a fireball is a warrior too(as the defintion is just one who engages in war). Having a common name, especially one that is extremely generic, does not give them a common association.
The link between Knight and God is actually pretty old and one of the core knightly virtues.
Okay, when we get a knight class I'll be sure to remember that. However I was discussing the paladin class. Paladins might be able to represent knights, but so can fighters and warlords. In historic fiction, paladins were not holy warriors, they were the best warriors of Charlamange. The term only came to represent the holy warrior idea because D&D used it as such.
I'm willing to accept that some -- maybe even most -- of Incarnum isn't thematically appropriate for the Ki power source. However, I still firmly believe that Ki needs to look beyond the notion of, "We're all Buddhist monks!" for inspiration.
Seconded!
Agreed I like the name Avatar.
KI as some posters in this thread would want it to have, would have a far too narrow band of appeal.
You can't do that when you're making -universal- rules. You have to broaden it, specifically so you don't have "No ASIA dms" having to say no to the Phb III. Just like the Divine classes cover monotheistic, as well as polytheistic, and Faith Powered Divine Champions all equally well. The same has been done for Martial already, and the same will have to be done with Ki.
Furthermore you don't make it seem like some kind of lame parody that "Oh because they are asian they can't use martial classes!" or some such Bs. Or that "because they are asian they have to be different!".
PHB III is NOT going to be Oriental Adventures. The Phb III is a CORE RULE set, that is supposed to be usable with -all- settings.
Thus Ki isn't going to be stuck with being Asian only, if Wizards has even half a brain.
This post is hard enough to parse that I am almost afraid to respond to it, but here I go...
You are making a severe logical mistake here. Many of the arguments you make here are based on the idea that just because a class has an Asian name and is inspired by an Asian concept, it is somehow mandatory that the class be linked to a campaign setting based on Asia. This is false.
It is far more likely that Ki is going to be only linked to any given kind of in-game culture in the same nebulous ways that Divine or Primal are, even if Ki is heavily tied to real world Asia. There certainly isn't going to be some crazy assumption that there is some part of the world where everyone uses Ki and nothing else, but no one uses Ki outside of that Asia analogue. In fact, I am pretty sure that no one in this thread has even argued that Ki should be something like that.
Ki is most likely going to be the default catch-all for most of the classes that were previously included in Oriental Adventures. It's just easier that way. Seriously, Ki powered... what? Martial Artists? Kind of a closed paradigm for creating a full set of classes, isn't it? They're going to have ki-powered magicians, swordfighters, and martial artists, at the very least.
And if you call the power source Ki, every class you power with it is going to have East Asian, Korean/Japanese/Chinese overtones for most people. So, the many DMs who don't want East Asian influences in their primarily-something-else campaigns, whatever they might be, can simply exclude the power source if they so choose, as well as any other material that has East Asian themes.
Things probably aren't as new as they appear.
I totally agree. My thought is that they'll make new class names that split up ideas and concepts that players like and try to make it as setting neutral as possible. Druid and cleric tried to do too many different things in 3rd, so now the druid powers have been split between the druid and warden and each class has been filled out to help it better fill its roll. Powers from the old cleric class are in the cleric, invoker, and likely the avenger.
The problem with traditional ki classes is that DMs would say "halflings don't have squinty eyes; you can't be a ninja" and players would mourn not getting to use rules that let them do cool things (I am still an advocate for the shadow ninja, this is just a personal experience example). I don't see why a world that allows some heroes to summon fire balls wouldn't also allow some heroes to vanish in a puff of smoke. I think the problem is in the perception of the players (albeit a skewed perception of biases limiting the imagination of others - just because I run up walls, doesn't mean I have a funny accent and confuse L's and R's). This is why I believe ki classes will have new names and descriptions. The powers might closely echo what we've seen before in previous editions and movies, but the classes will be built to show setting neutral awesomeness. I also believe Wizards will follow their tradition of high standards in creating new classed with new mechanics that fill out distinctive rolls in a unique fashion. I can't wait until I can finally play a character with the mechanics of some of my favorite fantasy characters; mechanics that fit the ki class.
The problem with traditional ki classes is that DMs would say "halflings don't have squinty eyes; you can't be a ninja" and players would morn not getting to use rules that let them do cool things (I am still an advocate for the shadow ninja, this is just a personal experience example). I don't see why a world that allows some heroes to summon fire balls wouldn't also allow some heroes to vanish in a puff of smoke. I think the problem is in the perception of the players (albeit a skewed perception of biases limiting the imagination of others - just because I run up walls, doesn't mean I have a funny accent and confuse L's and R's). This is why I believe ki classes will have new names and descriptions. The powers might closely echo what we've seen before in previous editions and movies, but the classes will be built to show setting neutral awesomeness. I also believe Wizards will follow their tradition of high standards in creating new classed with new mechanics that fill out distinctive rolls in a unique fashion. I can't wait until I can finally play a character with the mechanics of some of my favorite fantasy characters; mechanics that fit the ki class.
D&D hardly seems particularly concerned with names being culturally neutral. Paladin, Warlock, Wizard, Bard, Druid, Sorcerer as concepts they may or may not be universal but their names are all distinctly European. Samurai and Ninja may have started out as Japanese concepts but world-wide mass-media has largely assimilated them into far more generic identity. They usually hold some tenuous connection to their historical roots, but it has become common enough practice in fiction to depict them as almost any nationality (edit: or even as entirely non-human species).
There will be a Samurai and a Ninja, regardless of power source. They have massive cultural traction, they're not going to abandon that.
Maybe the names do, but I think that the way the classes have been handled traditionally is... well, lame. If they are seen, I can say confidently that I fully expect them to be significantly cooler than their "historical" basis.
Maybe the names do, but I think that the way the classes have been handled traditionally is... well, lame. If they are seen, I can say confidently that I fully expect them to be significantly cooler than their "historical" basis.
"Cool" is a matter of taste. I just figure I'll see the names. I imagine they'll have a mixture of historical, legendary, mythological, motion picture, videogame and cartoon inspired powers. I'm not super into the cartoon or videogame flavor, so if I get a chance to run an Oriental Adventures game this time around, I'll reflavor them, so it's not like it matters.
In 4E, the mechanics are far more divorced from the fluff than they've ever been, which makes it simple to turn the classes into whatever you want.
Barbarian is also an offensive term. We should get rid of it. Calling indigenous peoples "Barbarians" is oppressive, colonialist, and disgusting.
So, I'm the only person who considers that a compliment?
I completely agree with that.
That being said, the places that should be looked to for inspiration should be ones which are recognizably Ki. Someone with minimal knowledge of D&D should be able to hear, "The [X] class is in the Ki power source," and think, "Oh, that makes sense." That doesn't mean that the classes necessarily have to be the traditional asian D&D classes like the ninja and the samurai. It does mean that, once you understand what the class does, it should register as a Ki class. You shouldn't have to digest some weird new definition of Ki in order for it to make sense.
I completely agree, especially with the final part, though I think it's worth qualifying "weird new definition" within the reality that things can and do grow, and take on new meanings over time. Ki should be conceptually recognizable to folks familiar with the idea in 3E, but it also ought to be broad enough to incorporate a few new ideas to help the Ki power source be as varied and unique as the other power sources are.
Since I also quite like it, and suggested it in the first place, I just want to point out that Avatar is an Asian name, as its originally a Sanskrit word.
Actually, I did know that. :P But for the most part, I think it has been a part of the English language long enough that most people would consider it to be an English word, especially when one considers that, in our language, "avatar" has mostly been divorced from its original religious meaning. Ask most English-speakers what the word means, and if they know it, they'll probably give you some definition of "representation", and odds are pretty good that they learned the word as internet terminology.
India has a lot to contribute to the concept of Ki as well, you know, and in fact was the driving myth culture behind the Incarnum book. Yes, Hiduism never called it "Ki" but it has the same concept.
[...]
Ok, so even though Ki could be broad, it probably won't be, and thats fine, too. I'd be perfectly happy with some Hindu influence in the Ki power source, which would bring along with it the "baggage" of Incarnum, despite explicitly not using Incarnum mechanics (which I loved, by the way, despite the fact that it was generally weak). Honestly, though, Ki is the source least interesting to me (unless I'm correct about the heavy Aura mechanics in the Avatar/Ki Leader class), so despite the fact that I'd rather not have a class called "Samurai," anything will be ultimately fine by me.Side Note(Er, scratch that. I'm least interested in Psionics. Ki is a close second though, followed by Shadow. Of the remaining sources, I'm only intrigued by Elemental, as I can't imagine how they'd differentiate it from Divine. Frankly, I would be perfectly happy to run D&D with only three power sources: Martial, Divine, and Primal. Shocked you, didn't it, that I didn't say Arcane?).
There will be a Samurai and a Ninja, regardless of power source. They have massive cultural traction, they're not going to abandon that.
Maybe the names do, but I think that the way the classes have been handled traditionally is... well, lame. If they are seen, I can say confidently that I fully expect them to be significantly cooler than their "historical" basis.
They do have traction in western culture, that's true. However, as Wizardmon points out, it's their names (and arguably a handful of other superficial qualities) that carry the traction. The specific concepts we associate with Ninjas and Samurais are highly varied, from being strictly "martial" to being "divine warriors" to being masters of mystical elemental traditions, and all of which basically ignore any historical accuracy.
Samurais and Ninjas will exist in 4E, no doubt about it. It the form that they will take that nobody can agree on.
Playing a lute was black magic?
Think Pied Piper of Hamlin.
And if we are going to use the definition of arcane magic as "black magic", then why are there more power sources then just arcane, divine, and martial? Necromancy, I don't think anything exemplifies the idea of non divine magic more, and it isn't arcane. The bulk of illusion magic, not arcane(yes I know there are some illusion powers, but they are supposedly saving the majority for later). Shamanistic practices, those were most certainly considered to be witchcraft and other such things, once again not arcane. Arcane as black magic just doesn't work.
Remember 4e was the first edition to really divide various classes into different power sources. Necromancy and Illusion used to be part of the Wizards skill set. Also read up on the dictionary definition of arcane.
They might have been called warriors, but if we are to be technical, a mage who obliterates a battalion with a fireball is a warrior too(as the definition is just one who engages in war). Having a common name, especially one that is extremely generic, does not give them a common association.
Uh, Ranadiel they were given a common name because the share common qualities. Participating in war may make someone a warrior, but it does not necessarily make them a Warrior.
Okay, when we get a knight class I'll be sure to remember that. However I was discussing the paladin class. Paladins might be able to represent knights, but so can fighters and warlords. In historic fiction, paladins were not holy warriors, they were the best warriors of Charlamange. The term only came to represent the holy warrior idea because D&D used it as such.
And what were the 12 Peers of Charlamange? Knights. Why do you think the paladins had a legacy ability dealing with a mount? Oh, and the holy part? A result of mixing one of Charlamange's titles, Holy Roman Emperor, with images of the crusading knights of their time period.
But don't create a Ki power source and smush in glowy blue energy consisting of the souls of unborn children. Thats not what Ki has ever meant to anyone in the history of sentient life on this planet.
Well, how about glowy blue energy consisting of the souls of your ancestors? That's about as Ki as anyone could possibly get. Or, in the spirit of translating concepts to D&D, how about glowy blue energy consisting of the souls of magical beasts? Woo, now we got ourselves our Incarnum in the Ki Power Source!!!
Prove that Ki can stand on its own as a non-Asian power source by listing non-Asian classes.
*cracks knuckles* It's go time!
Mystic
All is one.
Class Traits
Role: Leader. You bolster your allies through spiritual powers, lifting them to greater potential.
Power Source: Ki. You take power from ambient spiritual energy and focus it to aid your allies or cast aside the harmful wills that would do them injury. When sword or sorcery threatens to envelop the lifespark that infuses a friend, you stand ready to fuel that fire and set it roaring.
Key Abilities: Wisdom, Charisma, Constitution. Perceive the flow, will it to move, then survive the process.
Armor, cloth, weapon blahblahblah.
More Blah goes here.
Build Options.
Unified Mysticism
I am a part of all that I have met.
The healer. Manipulates the life forces of the party to bolster them and keep them alive. Extremely good at warding away conditions, can heal, prevent, or eventually redirect or even reflect damage.
Legendary Mysticism
One does what one is; one becomes what one does.
The buffer. At the cost of the mystic's own essence, the souls of the party shine brighter, taking them to greater heights. Increases probability or potential, perhaps increasing die types or simply providing static bonuses, eventually able to recharge ally's powers. (Or something else of interest. The exact mechanics are not the issue.)
Sage
Almost every wise saying has an opposite one, no less wise, to balance it.
Class Traits
Role: Controller. Looking past the world, you see the ebb and flow beneath it. Pull one string, another moves, thus the fabric of reality shifts to your wishes.
Power Source: Ki. You manipulate the very essence of the world, the soul of your surroundings, or even that of your enemies to your bidding. Sometimes harmony requires temporary disorder, thus your channel spiritual energy to sweep aside your opponents in the chaos of the battlefield, until only tranquility remains.
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma. Force. Lever. Fulcrum.
Equipment blah.
Build Options.
Geomancer
No snowflake ever falls in the wrong place.
The warder. Excels at walls, AOE-movement denial, and other impediments that reshape the surroundings. Turns the very tide of the battle and environment against the opponents, until the world itself wills the party's victory.
Nihil
A thing, until it is everything, is noise, and once it is everything it is silence.
The debuffer. Negates, saps, prevents, or impedes enemy actions. Dampens the opponent's very essence, turning them into less than what they are, preventing their true potential or snuffing out their lives entirely.
And what were the 12 Peers of Charlamange? Knights. Why do you think the paladins had a legacy ability dealing with a mount? Oh, and the holy part? A result of mixing one of Charlamange's titles, Holy Roman Emperor, with images of the crusading knights of their time period.
Charlemagne, Charles the Great, was crowned in 800 AD. The first crusade was in 1095.
You're thinking of the Reconquista, specifically the part fictionalized in the Matter of France. There was a magic horse there at one point. Supposedly, a lot of the specific Paladin stuff for D&D came from a specific book by Poul Anderson, Three Hearts and Three Lions, which is an alternate universe story where the stories of Charlemagne and Roland and Oliver and magic horses were actual history.
D&D hardly seems particularly concerned with names being culturally neutral. Paladin, Warlock, Wizard, Bard, Druid, Sorcerer as concepts they may or may not be universal but their names are all distinctly European. Samurai and Ninja may have started out as Japanese concepts but world-wide mass-media has largely assimilated them into far more generic identity. They usually hold some tenuous connection to their historical roots, but it has become common enough practice in fiction to depict them as almost any nationality (edit: or even as entirely non-human species).
OK, let me see if I can be a little more exact on my point. I get frustrated when people say they won't let monk/ninja/samurai/etc into their games because they don't fit the setting. Why would a world that allows Eladrin to hurl fireballs not allow a half-elf to channel his inner energy into his sword? Just because he has access to the ki power source does not mean that he looks, acts, or talks any different than any other half-elf. I don't want Wizards of the Coast to refluff existing mechanics to fit a geographical location and a new power source. I want the ki power source to have new mechanics in it and fit along side with all the other power sources. Why should certain ideas for what a hero can do be limited to only "Oriental Adventures" just because an Anglo Saxon didn't come up with them?
I believe that many players are prejudiced against class names and more people know it than are willing to admit. To combat this, Wizards of the Coast should use class names in the ki power source that are not specific to Japan and China. In this way, mechanics that are unique to the ki class can be used in any campaign. I believe that the most iconic classes will still make the transition to 4E, but I don't think that the ki power source will become a dumping ground for any class that has been represented by Chinese or Japanese traditions. We'll see new classes that won't cause people to ban a power source because the names don't sound like a European ones.
*cracks knuckles* It's go time!
Mystic
. . .
Sage
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma. Force. Lever. Fulcrum.
Good on you. Between our posts, we've made four classes (though we both described similar leaders, so three different ones). With the monk, that would round out the power source and only leave one of four being a traditional "Asian" class. I'll admit you put much more thought into yours though and the pictures were cool. I'm not so much into the geomancy name (might be more elemental), but the nihil build is great (awesome name).
You definitely deserve it. Here have another Here have another
:D
I agree on the geomancy thing, though, need a better name for it. It's meant as a nod towards everything from Shinto wardings to voodoo lines to repel evil spirits. Not sure exactly what to call it, though.
Remember 4e was the first edition to really divide various classes into different power sources. Necromancy and Illusion used to be part of the Wizards skill set. Also read up on the dictionary definition of arcane.
.....Yeah I know, but I was responding your claim that the unifying theme of the arcane power source's "theme" being that it is black magic by pointing out that there are forms of black magic that don't fall under the arcane power source, so that is poor unifying theme.
Uh, Ranadiel they were given a common name because the share common qualities. Participating in war may make someone a warrior, but it does not necessarily make them a Warrior.
Oh please let's not play this game. We could do this for hours about just about anything and actually make zero progress. "Using magic may make you a mage, but it does not neccessarily make them a Mage." I actually want to say that this is falling into the true scottsman fallacy, but I'm a tiny bit hesitant to make that claim.
I agree on the geomancy thing, though, need a better name for it. It's meant as a nod towards everything from Shinto wardings to voodoo lines to repel evil spirits. Not sure exactly what to call it, though.
You could possibly go with "warder." I'm a scientist, we name things like that. It might be too close to Warden, but it could still work.
The point is that expectations are highly subjective, and there's no proof that people really do expect or want these classes to be Ki classes.
On the contrary, I think the fact that this very thread exist shows that people expect this out of the Ki power source.
You wouldn't have people on forum arguing that the Ki class won't be filled with oriental concept if people somewhere weren't expecting it.
You could possibly go with "warder." I'm a scientist, we name things like that. It might be too close to Warden, but it could still work.
True, but between the Warden, the Warlock, the Warlord, and the Wizard, I'm trying to avoid the letter W, specifically War- when naming classes. ><
I believe that many players are prejudiced against class names and more people know it than are willing to admit. To combat this, Wizards of the Coast should use class names in the ki power source that are not specific to Japan and China. In this way, mechanics that are unique to the ki class can be used in any campaign. I believe that the most iconic classes will still make the transition to 4E, but I don't think that the ki power source will become a dumping ground for any class that has been represented by Chinese or Japanese traditions. We'll see new classes that won't cause people to ban a power source because the names don't sound like a European ones.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at. Your intentions seem noble, but I feel like you're missing the point. I'll agree that it can be a little shallow for a DM to blanket ban certain character concepts, however, it is the DM's world and so ultimately he gets to set the ground rules. Taking the concepts that a DM doesn't want in his world and hiding them behind false names is not the answer. Further more why go to all the trouble of creating new names when we already have perfectly suitable and highly evocative names.
Lastly and, I don't like bing this up, specifically vetoing a name because it has Japanese/Chinese origins when Euro-centric class names are allowed to flourish is a little racist. It's also unlikely that such will be the case. WotC made conscious decision in naming one of the power sources "ki". That decision is that D&D will not be Euro-centric but will draw from mythologies from multiple cultures all over the world. If some DMs and players don't like those options then they don't have to use them, but those options will still be provided for the benefit of those who want the option.
Well, how about glowy blue energy consisting of the souls of your ancestors? That's about as Ki as anyone could possibly get. Or, in the spirit of translating concepts to D&D, how about glowy blue energy consisting of the souls of magical beasts? Woo, now we got ourselves our Incarnum in the Ki Power Source!!!
That's the opposite of a solution.
Since when has Ki meant "souls of your ancestors?" Since when has Ki related to ancestors at all? You didn't take Incarnum and make it Ki, you took Incarnum and made it Asian, then called it Ki. That makes things worse.
I want anyone who thinks that Ki is not going to be an Asian power source to list the non-Asian classes that they realistically and honestly believe Wizards of the Coast will release under the Ki power source.
Pretty simple.
Prove that Ki can stand on its own as a non-Asian power source by listing non-Asian classes.
Without entering into the debate, I will answer the OPs question.
Using the guidelines of "Soul" power, I have made a justifiable argument on several other threads that Incarnum-using classes fit the broad category of a class that uses "soul" energy to fuel their abilities.
The fact that this power is external soul power is largely irrelevant, as there is no canonical [read: 4th edition] evidence regarding the Ki power source which explicitly/implicitly states that the Ki Power source involves the channeling of one's own "Soul" power to the exclusion of all others.
Based on the scant information we have to date, it is a widely held belief that the designers have broadened the definition of "Ki" beyond its historical roots; to what extent, and in what direction(s) however - is anyone's guess.
If this is true, it invalidates any conclusions we may have which are drawn on such historical premises including (but not limited to), any discussion to the historical definitions of the word "ki".
While it is true that the Monk will (predominately) channel the power of their own "Soul" energy (or Ki) - as evidenced in the PHB 1, to make that same assumption for all Ki-using classes is an excersise in false logic, and is akin to saying that "Apples are a sweet, red or green fruit" and then jumping to the conclusion that all fruit must be red or green, and sweet-tasting.
While such classes would require serious revision in order to translate them into the 4E system, I believe that the following classes have enough of a flavour and uniqueness to find a place in the 4E class system.
Incarnate (Ki Leader): As yet, there is no class which makes use of the 4E Aura Mechanics, making this class a perfect fit for the role.
In addition, the 4E Incarnate's role could be broadened to include elements of the 3.X "Buff" Cleric - allowing the Incarnate to manipulate the ambient Soul energy (or Ki) in the environment to generate a variety of temporary "enchantment" effects on themselves, and their allies.
Soulblade (Ki Striker or Defender): An odd-ball amongst Psionic Classes, I am a firm believer that if Incarnum existed at the time of its creation, this class would have been a meldshaper - as the properties of their mindblade is thematically better suited to being a unique (weaponized) meld, than as a physical manifestation of psionic energy.
Were this class adopted into 4E and roled into the Ki power source (as I believe it should), there is ample room for them to kill the Soulborn and steal its stuff - thereby gaining the 4E equivelent of "Melds" as a result.
Im certain there are other 3.5 classes which could easily fit the ideology of the 4E "Ki" power source, as I am certain there are many new classes which could easily be folded in.
The concept of "Soul" power is such a broad, open, and undefined concept as to allow a multitude of interprations.... Incarnum (manifest soul energy) is just one of them.
Re: Samurai
While I agree that a historical interpretation of the Samurai can be simultated in a variety of ways from the Great Weapon Fighter (Kenjutsu), Tempest Fighter w/wo Ranger (Nitojutsu), Fighter/Ranger (Kyujutsu), the Samurai is perhaps better interpreted as a Martial Striker, given the philosophy of one-cut, one-kill which was so integral to the samurai fighting styles, and epitomized in the practice of Iaijutsu.
As it currently stands, the practice of Iaijutsu can only be simultated in 4E by the "Hunters Quarry" ability, or by allowing the Samurai to make Sneak Attacks using a Heavy Blade (Katana).
While I am of the opinion that the Iaijutsu Master would best fill the role of a Martial Paragon Path, there is still sufficient argument for the developers to create the Samurai Core Class, especially once you begin incorporating the anime and westernized "fantasy" elements which are being increasingly attributed to the "archetype".
On the contrary, I think the fact that this very thread exist shows that people expect this out of the Ki power source.
You wouldn't have people on forum arguing that the Ki class won't be filled with oriental concept if people somewhere weren't expecting it.
(If you're going to quote me, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least cite me. Thanks.
)I'll admit, I left a word out on that sentence, which I had naively thought was implied: "most" (people). Obviously, yes, some people expect and want the Ki power source to include Monk, Samurai, and Ninja classes, but I still don't believe there's any proof that most D&Ders actually expect and want that.
I believe my point is still accurate, and I stand by it.
PS: I added the word "most" in the original post, and an edit note stating so.
Lastly and, I don't like bing this up, specifically vetoing a name because it has Japanese/Chinese origins when Euro-centric class names are allowed to flourish is a little racist. It's also unlikely that such will be the case. WotC made conscious decision in naming one of the power sources "ki". That decision is that D&D will not be Euro-centric but will draw from mythologies from multiple cultures all over the world. If some DMs and players don't like those options then they don't have to use them, but those options will still be provided for the benefit of those who want the option.
You've got me on this point. I have to admit that as I was writing what I wrote I new it was just a different form of racism. I suppose I'm just jaded from past experiences. I don't see why an extraordinary world has to filter its extraordinary powers based on the origin of their names, but I can't change other people's prejudice by avoiding it. I'll get off my rant box now. Good gaming and good night.
Incarnum fits fine within Ki, all you need to do is make the soul energy used the wielder's instead of unbound. Hell, it already existed in incarnum as essentia. Basically, we get a class who creates weapons/armour out of soul energy, like a Ki-based soulknife.
See Zu Warriors(0:24 till 1:00. Ignore the voiceover, it has nothing to do with the film)
Class Listing Ho!
Monk: Multi-target striker (See Sorcerer)
Sohei: Defender (Ki-adin)
Yogi: Single target controller
Incarnate: Single Target Striker
War-Acupuncturist: Leader :D
@ mplindustries: I'd bet good money that Elemental is going to be the "Summon Elemental" source. The summoner who uses elementals as minions, the warrior who binds elementals into his weapon/armour and the binder who contains elementals in his own body. Plus the transmuter as the odd-ball.
There's something about that word that makes people lose their freaking minds. They should have just called it Soul so the only obnoxious pigeonholing would have been from people thinking it meant all the powers would be based on R&B music.
Some Ki classes?
Medium - Ki controller who summons and manipulates ghosts and the targets' own souls.
Truenamer - Ki Leader who forges connections with those around them to work their power.
Enchanter - Ki Defender like nothing we've ever seen. with their massive force of personality -- thier soul made manifest, they cloud the minds of their foes to draw down their damaging ability and use them against your other allies. (I'm not a meatshield, but I can get us a meatshield.)
I really hope there's no ninja or samurai class, simply because there's too much baggage attached to the terms. No matter what they can do, lots of people are going to be disappointed, and GMs are going to ban them from their games simply because of the name. Make Samurai Sohei, and Ninja Shadowdancer.
Sorry but I should imagine that most DMs who would ban Samurai just because of its name would probably ban Sohei for the same reasons. As for Shadowdancer, while an evocative title among longtime D&Der's, it has little to no meaning in the general public.
The truth is samurai and ninja simply carry to much recognition. They demand to be used. Love them or hate them most everyone will recognize them. While there will no doubt be some disappointment no matter what form those classes take, it would only be worse not to even try.
I really hope there's no ninja or samurai class, simply because there's too much baggage attached to the terms. No matter what they can do, lots of people are going to be disappointed, and GMs are going to ban them from their games simply because of the name.
That's what I was thinking. This thread is full of many (and sometimes contradictory) ideas of what Ninja and Samurai should be, and none of it is really related to how they've actually been designed in D&D.
I'm not a big fan of Chinese/Japanese names in general (like Sohei and Shugenja), since everyone will still think of those lands. Some names I don't think I've seen listed yet that can feel eastern without necessarily invoking specific thoughts of China and Japan.
Guru
Sage
Master
Ascetic
Dervish
Mystic
Ummm. All I got.
So far, all we know is that it will contain a Monk class, and that it will contain "special effects and power flavors of martial arts movies that’s different from our current martial power source."
I would like to know what evidence/reason anybody has to believe that the 3.5 "Power Source" Incarnum will be folded into Ki power. Surely "Soul" power does not necessarily constitute the concept of Incarnum.
There is a lot of debate and controversy over the Ki power source.
So far, all we know is that it will contain a Monk class, and that it will be inspired by martial arts movies, and powers will contain "special effects" like after-images that Martial powers do not have.
I would like to know what evidence/reason anybody has to believe that the 3.5 "Power Source" Incarnum will be folded into Ki power. Surely "Soul" power does not necessarily constitute the concept of Incarnum.
No, but it doesn't exclude it, either. Incarnum is the power of souls; the incarnum classes had the ability to mold the stuff of souls around their body and infuse it into their weapons and so forth.
Whether it will or won't, nobody can say. We can say what we'd like, but unless someone here is a mole in the WotC offices, we won't know if they did or didn't until the book hits the street.
Evidence for Ki including Incarnum: There was a quote once about ki being related to the soul. Incarnum is related to the soul. Ki has a passing familiarity with chakras. Incarnum uses chakras a great deal.
Evidnce against: Incarnum has no Ki connotations in 3e. Ki in popular fantasy and mythology has almost no similarities to Incarnum. Other quotes from developers discuss Ki being like martial, but with wilder, martial arts movie influenced special effects that don't seem entirely plausible for regular human ability. Also, Ki is typically thought of as an inner energy that one might project. Incarnum is a glowing blue substance consisting of raw soulstuff that is used by molding it into usable objects. In fact, some of its fluff specifically calls it out as not being a source of power, but rather as being an actual *thing* that one learns to manipulate. Granted that was 3e and "source of power" wasn't intended to mean "power source," but I'm not using the quote for that, I just want to highlight how different it is from traditional tropes of Ki energy.
Look... People are... well, there's a sort of OCD box filling compulsion amongst gamers. Its what drives them to create alignment grids and fill in role/power source combinations and create what this edition has referred to as "useless symmetry." And right now, the newest grid-filling exercise is finding ways to predict when and how (not if, never if) 3e classes will be coming to 4e. Incarnum existed in 3e, but it doesn't fit in any of the eight power sources. So people want it to fit into Ki. Because if it doesn't, that's a hole in the grid, and it drives them nuts.
Personally, I do think that Incarnum could exist in 4e, but I'd overhaul it completely. Of course, I always like doing that... I'd make an Incarnum book that was essentially a book of magic items that require feats to access and that can be self generated. Incarnum would then become a multiclass-feat accessible pseudo class available to anyone, that, by investing feats, granted you access to free, more powerful magic items that you generated with your will and your connection to Incarnum.
I think that would be really cool, would make Incarnum actually be Incarnum, and would allow Ki to actually be Ki. Which is kind of the point of power sources, really.
Personally, I do think that Incarnum could exist in 4e, but I'd overhaul it completely. Of course, I always like doing that... I'd make an Incarnum book that was essentially a book of magic items that require feats to access and that can be self generated. Incarnum would then become a multiclass-feat accessible pseudo class available to anyone, that, by investing feats, granted you access to free, more powerful magic items that you generated with your will and your connection to Incarnum.
Thats actually really awesome.
Personally, I do think that Incarnum could exist in 4e, but I'd overhaul it completely.
Well you'd have to. Because the 3e mechanics of it wouldn't fit.
The Incarnum book was one in the series of experiments that went on in the 3e era, trying to come up with a game system for extraordinary powers that was more interesting/satisfying/playable than Vancian magic. Ultimately all this resulted in was a big bag of incompatible systems.
All that could possibly make the transition into 4e would be some of the fluff. And honestly? The fluff by itself isn't very compelling.
I like your OCD analysis, BTW.
My own take was just that some people on this forum suffer from excessive wishful thinking, that they have one particular bit from the 3e days that they love and desperately want to shoehorn into 4e any which way they can.
But you bravely went ahead and diagnosed a much more comprehensive and serious disorder. Good work!
We are getting a Power Source called Ki, Ki has been in D&D for a very long time, so why now are we talking about Asia; just because the word Ki has origins in another language?
Most of the fantasy theme words we see in D&D have origins in another language, but in the context of the D&D world they have their own meaning.
The word "dragon" has all kinds of origins, meanings and contexts; but the only meaning of the word dragon that matters in D&D is the one D&D created for it.
Ki is the same as Naga, Shaman, Monk, Troll, Tiamat or Kopesh; you forget what you know about the word, what the words means in this world, in this reality or even in this language does not matter. I don't care who Tiamat 'really' is, because that does not matter in D&D.
Ki is not new to D&D, so I suggest you look up it's origins in D&D before you look up it's origin's in a reality that does not matter in D&D.
Why the hell is anyone talking about Asia? This is D&D we're talking about, there is no Asia in D&D.
We are getting a Power Source called Ki, Ki has been in D&D for a very long time, so why now are we talking about Asia; just because the word Ki has origins in another language?
Most of the fantasy theme words we see in D&D have origins in another language, but in the context of the D&D world they have their own meaning.
The word "dragon" has all kinds of origins, meanings and contexts; but the only meaning of the word dragon that matters in D&D is the one D&D created for it.
Ki is the same as Naga, Shaman, Monk, Troll, Tiamat or Kopesh; you forget what you know about the word, what the words means in this world, in this reality or even in this language does not matter. I don't care who Tiamat 'really' is, because that does not matter in D&D.
Ki is not new to D&D, so I suggest you look up it's origins in D&D before you look up it's origin's in a reality that does not matter in D&D.
You didn't really read this thread before posting, did you Mcnancy?
You're right that words don't matter in-game. However, you're forgetting the fact that the words and concepts the game uses do matter in real life, because they affect the people playing the game. There are plenty of potentially very offensive words and concepts that could be a part of the game, but aren't, including ones that actually were a part of D&D in the past. (In 1st Edition AD&D, females were more limited than males were in the ability scores they could begin with.) For an extreme example of a (pseudo-) game which used offensive terms and concepts, there was a partial RPG ruleset called "RaHoWa", created by a white-supremacist group and used blatantly racist terminology, unsuitable for this forum. While it's true that "It's only a game!", folks who don't identify with the ideology behind that game will almost certainly be turned off by the concepts expressed and the words used by the game.
Obviously what we're talking about in this thread is not even in the same league as that example. However, I think the my point remains: the words and concepts that the game uses directly influence the people playing the game. If we, as a society, are not going to tolerate prejudice and discrimination, we need to be consistent about it. Plus, its good for our favorite game: D&D!
Thats actually really awesome.
Agreed!
Actually, I'm sort of imagining now that a 4E Incarnum-based class would have these "items" as class powers, rather than feat-items. They'd use a new keyword ("soulmeld", perhaps?) to define that these powers are relatively persistent during each encounter, similar to powers with the "stance" keyword.
Why, because the word Ki's context in D&D might relate to things that don't share the same country of origin?
So because the concept of Ki energy originates in China(or wherever) people from Japan(or wherever) are incapable of having Ki energy?
we need to be consistent about it.
The word prayer, druid, shaman, holy, martyr, monk and not to mention divine is used in D&D, do we need to get into the origins of those words so only those people can use it?
What in the holy name of Tiamat is so damn special about the word Ki?
Incarnum existed in 3e, but it doesn't fit in any of the eight power sources.
Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal, Shadow, Ki, Psionic, _____. What is the 8th power source?
They really shouldn't have named it Ki.
There's something about that word that makes people lose their freaking minds. They should have just called it Soul so the only obnoxious pigeonholing would have been from people thinking it meant all the powers would be based on R&B music.
Some Ki classes?
Medium - Ki controller who summons and manipulates ghosts and the targets' own souls.
Truenamer - Ki Leader who forges connections with those around them to work their power.
Enchanter - Ki Defender like nothing we've ever seen. with their massive force of personality -- thier soul made manifest, they cloud the minds of their foes to draw down their damaging ability and use them against your other allies. (I'm not a meatshield, but I can get us a meatshield.)
I don't think any of those are even in the same power source that Ki power source will likely represent. The idea of a Truenamer is much more closely related to the concepts behind Arcane magic, and has nothing to do with the basic concept of Ki or Souls. Your "enchanter" is named like an Arcane class and its powers sound like a Psionic class. And while a Medium is a valid concept for a class, it really sits more in the grey area between Arcane, Divine, and Primal (though I will grant that it might be a Ki related class).
The reason that Ki works as a name is that it is a pretty straightforward concept. In 90% of the places it appears in current pop culture, it is used to depict a kind of internal energy that can be gathered and released in the form of flashy energy attacks. On the other hand, a word like "Soul" doesn't have any kind of specific connotation. A "soul" power source doesn't bring to mind any central concept. Beyond that, "soul" and "ki" are in no way equivalent terms, so you can't say soul is a reasonable direct replacement for ki.
I gotta agree with Cadfan. His analisis(sp) is pretty spot-on, though his rebuild could be great or terrible, depending on how WotC tries it. One question, though:
Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal, Shadow, Ki, Psionic, _____. What is the 8th power source?
Heavy Metal.
...
Elemental, actually.
Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal, Shadow, Ki, Psionic, _____. What is the 8th power source?
Elemental.
Not that we know anything about it.
Soulborn
Incarnate
Totemist
All soul fueled. Ki is the power of souls in 4e, Incarnum was in 3e so there :P
Incarnum was NOT fueled by YOUR soul, however. It was fueled by ambient souls in the area around you.
It was pretty specific about that.
(MoI, I mean.)
Elemental.
Not that we know anything about it.
True facts.
FWIW though, we don't hardly know anything about Ki, Psionic, or Shadow either. To differing degrees we do, but compared to the published ones and Primal (which has been mostly revealed by now), we really don't know much at all what these power sources are going to be about in 4E.
Incarnum was NOT fueled by YOUR soul, however. It was fueled by ambient souls in the area around you.
It was pretty specific about that.
(MoI, I mean.)
And in 4E you use YOUR Soul to create weapons and or armor out of it. That is KiCarnum so to say. It has the same image as incarnum, creating things out of Soul energy, but uses your own Ki.
We could get a "Soulwizard" too.
Wizards use arcane power to create a fireball
Psions create i through sher willpower
Soulmages use some kind of ki formed power (Kiblast for example)
A Soulmage could meet the image of a really fit guy who trains his body to better use his Ki. In this case we would have a Mystical Fighting Artist (or Capcom Streetfighter) but it would not scream Asian so much.
I hope it is understandable what i wrote, i'm really tired
All we know for certain is that:
- The Ki Power source deals with the power of the "Soul"*.
Everything else is speculation, no matter how insightful.
*Without additional information, this statement can be interpreted in a variety of ways and is at the root of the debate (although I cannot remember for the life of me whether I heard this in a podcast, or in the Preview books).
What? is that what this about? you think the use of the word Ki is offensive?
Why, because the word Ki's context in D&D might relate to things that don't share the same country of origin?
So because the concept of Ki energy originates in China(or wherever) people from Japan(or wherever) are incapable of having Ki energy?
The word prayer, druid, shaman, holy, martyr, monk and not to mention divine is used in D&D, do we need to get into the origins of those words so only those people can use it?
What in the holy name of Tiamat is so damn special about the word Ki?
...No, you definitely didn't read the thread.
This debate mostly isn't about the word "Ki" at all. What it is about is which classes ought to make up the Ki power source, and how Ki ought to be described.
Basically, the issue is this: We don't know anything about Ki in 4E, but people want to speculate about it. A number of people have suggested that Ki should include Monk, Samurai, Ninja, Shugenja, or Sohei classes, and used the justification that, "Ki is the Asian power source." It's the idea of an "Asian" power source that some of us oppose, because it potentially marginalizes Asians and Asian cultures, especially all the ones other than Japan and China that D&D's concept of "Ki" doesn't borrow from at all. (D&D's Ki is a lot more "Japanese" than "Asian".)
In D&D, Ki isn't "Asian", sorta like you were talking in your first post. The argument we're trying to make is that since Ki isn't really "Asian", it shouldn't get described as "the Asian power source", and it shouldn't be limited to "Asian" concepts, like Samurais, Monks, and Ninjas. Basically, we want to see Ki classes that aren't Asia-specific ideas.
I also really, really recommend you read the whole thread before posting again, Mcnancy.
Honestly, all of this is just speculation (on both sides), given the fact that we have scant information regarding what the Ki Power Source is/is not.
All we know for certain is that:
- The Ki Power source deals with the power of the "Soul"*.
Everything else is speculation, no matter how insightful.
*Without additional information, this statement can be interpreted in a variety of ways and is at the root of the debate (although I cannot remember for the life of me whether I heard this in a podcast, or in the Preview books).
Aye, and what debate it's causing on these boards today! :D
D&D hardly seems particularly concerned with names being culturally neutral. Paladin, Warlock, Wizard, Bard, Druid, Sorcerer as concepts they may or may not be universal but their names are all distinctly European.
This might be - and I'm just guessing here - due to the game being made by English-speakers for an English-speaking audience. It would follow that they use words from the English language in the rules whenever possible.
Samurai and Ninja may have started out as Japanese concepts but world-wide mass-media has largely assimilated them into far more generic identity. They usually hold some tenuous connection to their historical roots, but it has become common enough practice in fiction to depict them as almost any nationality (edit: or even as entirely non-human species).
Wait... Throughout this whole thread, people have been repeatedly pointing out that the words "samurai" and "ninja" can mean entirely different things to different people, and now you're saying that they have a more generic identity? Huh?
Ki suffers from the problem of major conceptual overlap. It's usually associated with martial artists, which, from the name, is clearly related to the martial power source. If you want to go into the more common mystical interpretations, those are already accounted for too. That's the root of the psi power source. The only direction left to turn is the Naruto-style 'ninja' character, which channels power in ways virtually indistinguishable from the arcane power source.
There are very few ways to make it distinct from other power sources. AZNness is the most obvious, and the most disappointing. I don't think we need specific classes for Japanese Fighters and Rogues. The second is to de-emphasize the AZNness in favor of soul-based powers. Since it has been established that ki will be a power source, this is the one I'm forced to favor. What I don't know is how they'll create several distinct classes for it without getting goofy and redundant.
Defender: Rounin- Trained in noble blade-arts, these master warriors are their own masters.
Do you mean Ronin? Because if so, a Ronin is a Samurai (usaully) without a Lord. Ronin is more equivalent to a homeless person than a specific powersource, for lack of a betetr example.
Also, I think Ninja will definitely be a Ki striker. That could make the Monk a Ki Defender who dabbles in Striker. That would be plausible.
Ki is not KiCarnum. KiCarnum is a one of the many ways to channel your Chi.
KiCarnum could be used by a leader class to give an ally extra armor by infusing parts of his Ki into a physical form or he could create stronger weapons for the ally. He could channel his Ki in a way to radiate into the area strengthening the Ki of his allys so that the perform better.
Ki shouldn't be "better fighting skills" but should be used in creative ways.
Also, I think Ninja will definitely be a Ki striker. That could make the Monk a Ki Defender who dabbles in Striker. That would be plausible.
It would work, if they hadn't confirmed that Monk was a Ki Striker already.
While there is no dispute that the Monk harnesses the power of the Monk's own soul (or Ki), will this hold true for all Ki classes, or does the Power Source have a broader definition?
IOWs, is it the power of the individual Soul, or the power of the Soul, in general?
That is the true question. I personally, feel that the broader definition should be adopted by Wizards (if it hasnt been already), as it would allow for a far greater diversity of classes than what could be created with the narrower definition.
Further more, even using the more narrow definition, I fail to see how the Samurai fits the ideology of a class which uses its "Soul" energy....
At best, the Samurai is nothing more than an asian-themed Martial Class, as their iconic fighting styles (Kenjutsu, Nitojutsu, Kyujutsu, or Iaijutsu) have little (if anything) to do with Ki.
On a similar note, the Shugenja is better suited as an Elemental, Primal, or Divine Class (depending upon interpretation), while the Wu Jen is definately an Elemental or Arcane Class.
With that being said, a case can be made for the Ninja, Monk, and Sohei as Ki Classes (although admittedly, Shadow may be a better fit for the Ninja, while the Monk could easily kill the Sohei and steal its stuff).
Yep... The big question is this:
While there is no dispute that the Monk harnesses the power of the Monk's own soul (or Ki), will this hold true for all Ki classes, or does the Power Source have a broader definition?
IOWs, is it the power of the individual Soul, or the power of the Soul, in general?
That is the true question. I personally, feel that the broader definition should be adopted by Wizards (if it hasnt been already), as it would allow for a far greater diversity of classes than what could be created with the narrower definition.
"What heroic archetypes should the Ki Power source contain?" is a better question. Whether the energy that power the abilities of characters with these archetypes is from their personal souls or souls in general is a matter of fluff.
I for one hope that the Ki power source covers mystical martial artists, and that was something that a designer strongly implied in an interview.
Further more, even using the more narrow definition, I fail to see how the Samurai fits the ideology of a class which uses its "Soul" energy....
At best, the Samurai is nothing more than an asian-themed Martial Class, as their iconic fighting styles (Kenjutsu, Nitojutsu, Kyujutsu, or Iaijutsu) have little (if anything) to do with Ki.
That only if you are focusing on realistic samurai and not fantastic/mystical samurai. Fantastic samurai and the various characters spiritually descended from them have had a large number of supernatural attacks such as the following:
- Launching waves of energy from a slash (a.k.a. Air Slash)
- Sheathing their blades in elemental energy.
- Cutting things with dull or even wooden blades.
- Harming spirits and other insubstantal beings with physical weapons.
- Attacks that plow troughs in the ground that are fifty feet long.
With that being said, a case can be made for the Ninja, Monk, and Sohei as Ki Classes (although admittedly, Shadow may be a better fit for the Ninja, while the Monk could easily kill the Sohei and steal its stuff).
And Shadow could potentially be a worse fit than Ki for the Ninja. We do not have sufficient information on any of the 4 future power sources to make anything beyond broad generalizations.
That only if you are focusing on realistic samurai and not fantastic/mystical samurai. Fantastic samurai and the various characters spiritually descended from them have had a large number of supernatural attacks such as the following:
- Launching waves of energy from a slash (a.k.a. Air Slash)
- Sheathing their blades in elemental energy.
- Cutting things with dull or even wooden blades.
- Harming spirits and other insubstantal beings with physical weapons.
- Attacks that plow troughs in the ground that are fifty feet long.
You actually make a good argument for an Elemental Samurai, which IMO would be a really cool (and quite original) take on the class; which would not only make Anime fans happy, but would also clearly define the Samurai as something other than an asian-themed Fighter.
In fact, I like the idea so much that I might actually recast my version of the Samurai (which I was originally going to publish in a discarded 3rd party product) as an Elemental Striker that uses a Heavy Blade as an Implement, and has a variety of ranged, close blast, and melee attacks.
What to call it is another story (Samurai and Dragon Samurai just don't seem to do the idea justice).
And Shadow could potentially be a worse fit than Ki for the Ninja. We do not have sufficient information on any of the 4 future power sources to make anything beyond broad generalizations.
I agree. It depends entirely upon how the designer's choose to envision each of the classes as to where they fit in the scheme of things. Were they to translate the 3.5 Ninja to 4th edition, I can see it going both ways.
Were they instead to recast the Ninja in a completely different light to its 3.5 counterpart, who knows.
It would work, if they hadn't confirmed that Monk was a Ki Striker already.
Well, roles don't have to be exclusive by any means.
Still, I think "Ki Monk" and "Ki Ninja" share way too much conceptual territory. Monk is pretty much a shoe-in, but what would a Ki Ninja be other than a slightly stealthier Monk who uses weapons more often? The Monk, imagine, has the mystical martial-arts shtick covered, so how would you make the Ninja both ninja-y and distinct from a Monk? (I daresay that a Monk with a short sword and black jumpsuit is still a Monk.)
I like to imagine a Ninja class which is both unique and distinctly ninja-y as a master of the occult arts of stealth, infiltration, and swift assassination. This Ninja would accomplish this through primarily illusions, but also shadowy transformations. For example, this Ninja would use illusions to turn himself invisible before and after an attack, to hypnotize sentries into inaction, to disguise himself even from magical scrutiny, and to misdirect his foes into attacking one another instead of him; this Ninja would use shadowy transformations to meld his form and footfalls into silent shadow, to drift unharmed in and out of combat like a ghost, and to phase through walls or float like vapor though the cracks under doors. This Ninja would wear light or no armor, primarily use Weapon powers, and perhaps even mystically command poison to coat his blades. (An At-Will melee poison attack, maybe?)
What I just described is, I believe, a quintessentially Shadow Striker. I'll give you one guess which power source I'd like Ninjas to be in. (Hint: It's Shadow.)
Further more, even using the more narrow definition, I fail to see how the Samurai fits the ideology of a class which uses its "Soul" energy....
Unless we look beyond "Using the power of your own Soul" and widen the concept of Ki to include "Using the power of your Ancestors' Souls" or "using the power of Souls in General". I think a Samurai who's strengthened and protected by his lineage is a good place for a Ki Samurai to exist. Coincidentally, my concept of D&D's Ki Power Source as "Using the power of Souls in General" is why I think that the ideas of Incarnum could resonate in the Ki Power Source, if not the specific mechanics.
What I just described is, I believe, a quintessentially Shadow Striker. I'll give you one guess which power source I'd like to see Ninjas in. (Hint: It's Shadow.)
But you never see ninjas anywhere, that is sort of their whole thing.:P
Ki suffers from the problem of major conceptual overlap. It's usually associated with martial artists, which, from the name, is clearly related to the martial power source. If you want to go into the more common mystical interpretations, those are already accounted for too. That's the root of the psi power source. The only direction left to turn is the Naruto-style 'ninja' character, which channels power in ways virtually indistinguishable from the arcane power source.
These are not the only options. There is a fairly wide range of portrayals of "ki" that do not necessarily fall into any of the categories that you describe. Actually, you are ignoring almost all of the most popular portrayals.
Where exactly do the classic Street Fighter Hadoken and Shoryuken techniques fit into the categories you list? They are not as diverse and magical as Arcane or Psionic powers, they are more linked to study of the martial arts than Arcane or Psionics, but they are far flashier and mystical than Martial powers.
There are any number of other similar examples, really...
Basically, the issue is this: We don't know anything about Ki in 4E, but people want to speculate about it. A number of people have suggested that Ki should include Monk, Samurai, Ninja, Shugenja, or Sohei classes, and used the justification that, "Ki is the Asian power source." It's the idea of an "Asian" power source that some of us oppose, because it potentially marginalizes Asians and Asian cultures, especially all the ones other than Japan and China that D&D's concept of "Ki" doesn't borrow from at all.
I too Oppose WotC creating an "asian power source" because of reason you all have stated and the very reasons I stated. You guys are getting hung up on the word asian, WotC would not use that word or any other insensitive terminology to explain a power source in a PH.
But if the Ki Power source was comprised of Monk, Sohei, Wu-Jen and Samurai and did not use regional terms such as asia or orient then would we have a problem? No, because they would just be the four classes that use Ki power and what continent they come from does not matter.
If you actually think WotC would say "Ki power is the power of Asia!" then you are in for a bit of a let down.
Incarnate
Soulborn
Totemist
Yes, Magic of Incarnum classes the lot of them. They wielded and merged souls to make armor and weapons. Well, the energy part of souls; they didn't trap souls in armor like jerks. Well, kinda. It's difficult stuff to fully a'splain.
Ninja is possible, but I doubt Wu Jen, Shugenja, and Samurai (the oriental classes of 3.5). None of them have any relation to Ki. It strikes me as odd that just because they also have roots in oriental dealings (like monks), they're pulled in the with the lot where Incarnates make more sense.
These are not the only options. There is a fairly wide range of portrayals of "ki" that do not necessarily fall into any of the categories that you describe. Actually, you are ignoring almost all of the most popular portrayals.
Where exactly do the classic Street Fighter Hadoken and Shoryuken techniques fit into the categories you list? They are not as diverse and magical as Arcane or Psionic powers, they are more linked to study of the martial arts than Arcane or Psionics, but they are far flashier and mystical than Martial powers.
There are any number of other similar examples, really...
The Paladin class has a lot of abilities that are physical in nature, and yet the class is Divine. I don't see how Psi couldn't work the same way.
Look... People are... well, there's a sort of OCD box filling compulsion amongst gamers. Its what drives them to create alignment grids and fill in role/power source combinations and create what this edition has referred to as "useless symmetry." And right now, the newest grid-filling exercise is finding ways to predict when and how (not if, never if) 3e classes will be coming to 4e. Incarnum existed in 3e, but it doesn't fit in any of the eight power sources. So people want it to fit into Ki. Because if it doesn't, that's a hole in the grid, and it drives them nuts.
You gained like 45 Brownie Points in my book just now. You, sir, are awesome.
Look... People are... well, there's a sort of OCD box filling compulsion amongst gamers. Its what drives them to create alignment grids and fill in role/power source combinations and create what this edition has referred to as "useless symmetry." And right now, the newest grid-filling exercise is finding ways to predict when and how (not if, never if) 3e classes will be coming to 4e. Incarnum existed in 3e, but it doesn't fit in any of the eight power sources. So people want it to fit into Ki. Because if it doesn't, that's a hole in the grid, and it drives them nuts.
I wouldn't say I'd go nuts to discover a lack of incarnum, but I do think incarnum and ki have a lot in common, especially since chi (the chinese word for the equivelant of ki) does have relation to the chinese concept of chakras, like incarnum has chakras for the soulmelds.
There's no proof though. This is all guess-work, and there's no evidence. So there's no proof for "Ki-carnum", but it's just a suspicion. Since I find that Incarnate and Soulborn make more sense than Wu Jen and Samurai, I side with Incarnum returning. That's all any of this is. It's opinion.
So far, all we know is that it will contain a Monk class, and that it will be inspired by martial arts movies, and powers will contain "special effects" like after-images that Martial powers do not have.
Link please. Or is this just an offshot of that one thread where a guy heard about the Monk being Ki, and so not only assumed he knew exactly what the unreleased class was like in every way, but he also applied that one assumption as the basis for every single unanounced class in the entire powersource?
Link please. Or is this just an offshot of that one thread where a guy heard about the Monk being Ki, and so not only assumed he knew exactly what the unreleased class was like in every way, but he also applied that one assumption as the basis for every single unanounced class in the entire powersource?
Wotc: Why did Wizards of the Coast start out with expanding the martial power source? What other power sourcebooks are being planned; and, for that matter, what other power sources are being planned? (What, for instance, is the difference between the martial and ki power sources?)
RH: Starting with your parenthetical question and working backwards, the ki power source will have some very marked differences from the martial power source because there is a lot that can be done with the special effects and power flavors of martial arts movies that’s different from our current martial power source. But I’m not telling you now what the differences are going to be.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20081112a
I don't know where people get the after image thing. I assume that's interpretation. But this is the original quote.
And honestly, this is what Robert Heinsoo should be doing. One of the *points* of class design in D&D is to give people the ability to roleplay character archetypes from movies and from fantasy. Martial arts movies and fantasy exist. They should be in D&D. And since they don't work quite right as martial, since they tend to be a bit more... high fantasy than most of the martial power source, it makes sense to use something like Ki to justify why Monks can, I dunno, run straight up walls or whatever, and a Fighter can't.
If you actually think WotC would say "Ki power is the power of Asia!" then you are in for a bit of a let down.
I agree with this, but it's a bit more complicated than that.
A number of former and potential classes -- the "Oriental Adventures"-type classes -- such as Ninja, Monk, Samurai, Shugenja, Sohei, and Wu Jen are all based on concepts clearly borrowed from popular western notions Japanese and Chinese fantasy. Because of this, these classes get labeled by players and DMs as "Asian" or "oriental" (which is a problem), and because of the label the same players and DMs are calling for them to be shoe-horned into the Ki power source (which is a bigger problem).
- The labeling is a problem because: A.) it is not especially accurate; B.) it potentially invites racial and cultural stereotyping; and C.) it doesn't contribute anything to either the game or the gaming community in the first place.
- The shoe-horning of classes into Ki is a problem because: A.) it weakens the core concept of Ki as power source by diluting it with unrelated power source concepts; B.) it deprives the game of the most unique and distinct aspect of each of the "Asian" classes in order to fit them into the Ki power source, when most of the "Asian" classes would probably fit better into other power sources; C.) it deprives the game of other concepts which might have been a part of the Ki power source if they hadn't been displaces by shoe-horned "Asian" classes; D.) it also potentially invites racial and cultural stereotyping.
At this point, there's no official suggestion that this is going to be what happens with Ki. However, there are some folks who seem to be fighting for these ideas, and then there are those of us who want to make it clear what a mistake it would be to shoe-horn "fantasy Chinatown" into the Ki power source.
These are not the only options. There is a fairly wide range of portrayals of "ki" that do not necessarily fall into any of the categories that you describe. Actually, you are ignoring almost all of the most popular portrayals.
Where exactly do the classic Street Fighter Hadoken and Shoryuken techniques fit into the categories you list? They are not as diverse and magical as Arcane or Psionic powers, they are more linked to study of the martial arts than Arcane or Psionics, but they are far flashier and mystical than Martial powers.
There are any number of other similar examples, really...
Don't forget about Dragonball!
Hadoken- and Kamehameha-type Ki ranged attacks are almost guaranteed to make an appearance in 4E's Monk, I believe. Even in 3.5E's PH2 there was a feat to allow Monks to expend uses of their stunning fist ability in order to hurl damaging "orbs of ki energy" at foes.
You actually make a good argument for an Elemental Samurai, which IMO would be a really cool (and quite original) take on the class; which would not only make Anime fans happy, but would also clearly define the Samurai as something other than an asian-themed Fighter.
There are two major flaws in your logic here, Glimeral.
1st of all, we have absolutely no information on the Elemental power source beyond its name.
2nd of all, if the class we were talking about was the Wizard and I had listed spells such as fireball, icestorm and lightning bolt you could of used the same logic as you did here to say that the Wizard should be an Elemental class.
So saying that a class should be elemental just because it deals elemental damage is very ill advised.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20081112a
I don't know where people get the after image thing. I assume that's interpretation. But this is the original quote.
Thank you for the link and quotation.
In retrospect, I realize it may be a misenterpritation of what was meant, but this is where people get the after-image thing from (its from the same article, btw):
Martial classes get most of their personal power from skill that may start as innate but increases as a matter of constant training. Compared to all the other power sources, the martial power source doesn’t tend to look or feel magical. But since it’s the type of highly skilled weapon training that occurs in a world that’s full of magic, there are effects created by highly skilled martial characters that would certainly seem magical if they were occurring in our world. Unlike all the other power sources, the powers used by martial characters don’t have obvious magical special effects, no flashing auras, or looming spirits, or rays and bolts, or even after-effect images of an incredibly fast sword. Martial powers look like powers that a warrior or rogue in our non-magical world might use, even if they accomplish things that people in our world would have almost no chance of accomplishing.
I think that others, like myself, assumed that characters who did move fast enough to create such after-images would be using a power source similar to, but different from, Martial-- Ki. Of course, this is assumption, and not grounded in anything, except for another mention of "special effects," and as such, I will edit my first post.
Ninja is possible, but I doubt Wu Jen, Shugenja, and Samurai (the oriental classes of 3.5). None of them have any relation to Ki.
I disagree; in the past, classes like Samurai is how the notion of Ki came to the D&D world and the Ninja didn't have nearly as much stake in Ki as the Samurai did.
back in 2nd edition I played a lot of FR, and Ki was almost a sort of philosophy of combat and power. It was a mysterious and obscure art form, which is why the classes that use it seem like they have their own culture because only certain cultures like Kara-tur practiced it.
The Paladin class has a lot of abilities that are physical in nature, and yet the class is Divine. I don't see how Psi couldn't work the same way.
Like what? Seriously, the Paladin may have a lot of sword strikes, but they are quite explicitly flavored as being very spell-like. As a whole, the entire class is flavored as a cleric who happens to use more melee attacks than is normal.
Anyways, I can also easily imagine there being Paladin-like classes under the Psionic Power Source. However, I don't think that such a class would bear any resemblance to a class from the Ki Power Source. I would have to get very technical and specific in order to describe this difference, but it is nonetheless very clear to me. I won't give the explanation now, but go ahead and ask me if you want to hear it.
WotC made conscious decision in naming one of the power sources "ki". That decision is that D&D will not be Euro-centric but will draw from mythologies from multiple cultures all over the world. If some DMs and players don't like those options then they don't have to use them, but those options will still be provided for the benefit of those who want the option.
I personally hope this is what they are going for, though I'm not so sure it's a definite. It could certainly mitigate potential cultural shoehorning annoyance. Also, it could explain how the "ever-expanding" core might actually be ever-expanding.
These are not the only options. There is a fairly wide range of portrayals of "ki" that do not necessarily fall into any of the categories that you describe. Actually, you are ignoring almost all of the most popular portrayals.
Where exactly do the classic Street Fighter Hadoken and Shoryuken techniques fit into the categories you list? They are not as diverse and magical as Arcane or Psionic powers, they are more linked to study of the martial arts than Arcane or Psionics, but they are far flashier and mystical than Martial powers.
There are any number of other similar examples, really...
Don't forget about Dragonball!
Hadoken- and Kamehameha-type Ki ranged attacks are almost guaranteed to make an appearance in 4E's Monk, I believe. Even in 3.5E's PH2 there was a feat to allow Monks to expend uses of their stunning fist ability in order to hurl damaging "orbs of ki energy" at foes.
Ha. Wow, I never heard about those rules in D&D! The lines definitely seem blurry and speculative around the Ki power source. If hadoken were considered Ki then certainly some forms of Incarnum could fit as well. Not necessarily arguing for or against that "if" here, though.
Like what? Seriously, the Paladin may have a lot of sword strikes, but they are quite explicitly flavored as being very spell-like. As a whole, the entire class is flavored as a cleric who happens to use more melee attacks than is normal.
Anyways, I can also easily imagine there being Paladin-like classes under the Psionic Power Source. However, I don't think that such a class would bear any resemblance to a class from the Ki Power Source. I would have to get very technical and specific in order to describe this difference, but it is nonetheless very clear to me. I won't give the explanation now, but go ahead and ask me if you want to hear it.
You're going to have to go ahead and explain. Psionics was based on the exact same concepts that 'ki' is to begin with, even before the concept came to D&D, so I don't see why they'd be necessarily different in this case.
This is, in fact, my whole problem. You take a concept, rename it, universalize it for general use, and suddenly it's apparently not ethnic enough, so you go back to the original concept. Seems a bit pointless.
The examples given were Street Fighter and Dragon Ball, which is interesting. From the Dragon Ball and DBZ series, and the Street Fighter anime and manga, we have some idea of how those characters train and fight, and most of it seems to be clearly Martial in nature - conditioning the body for use in combat. And in Street Fighter, and to some extent in Dragon Ball despite how high-powered everything is, most of the combat consists primarily of people trying to hit each other very hard with their well-trained bodies. Not seeing how this lends itself to a power source being clearly defined from Martial. Dragon Ball Z even explicitly states that the strength of their ki is strongly related to physical strength and training.
The examples given were Street Fighter and Dragon Ball, which is interesting. From the Dragon Ball and DBZ series, and the Street Fighter anime and manga, we have some idea of how those characters train and fight, and most of it seems to be clearly Martial in nature - conditioning the body for use in combat. And in Street Fighter, and to some extent in Dragon Ball despite how high-powered everything is, most of the combat consists primarily of people trying to hit each other very hard with their well-trained bodies. Not seeing how this lends itself to a power source being clearly defined from Martial. Dragon Ball Z even explicitly states that the strength of their ki is strongly related to physical strength and training.
I think this is a good point.
Doesn't it support arguments that Ki will probably be much more loosely defined than just "incredible martial arts?" Even if so, detractors still have a point that calling it "Ki" is a bit odd...at least at first glance.
The examples given were Street Fighter and Dragon Ball, which is interesting. From the Dragon Ball and DBZ series, and the Street Fighter anime and manga, we have some idea of how those characters train and fight, and most of it seems to be clearly Martial in nature - conditioning the body for use in combat. And in Street Fighter, and to some extent in Dragon Ball despite how high-powered everything is, most of the combat consists primarily of people trying to hit each other very hard with their well-trained bodies. Not seeing how this lends itself to a power source being clearly defined from Martial. Dragon Ball Z even explicitly states that the strength of their ki is strongly related to physical strength and training.
Characters from every power source train to develop their powers; characters from every power source also have powers which rely upon physical contact with their foes in order to deal damage. However, these qualities do not necessarily a Martial character make. Martial is obviously mostly about physical training, while Arcane is about study and practice of mystical techniques, while Ki training is (presumably) about training to channel the power of one's soul.
Dragonball Z doesn't emphasize the non-martial nature of Ki training, but I think it's still there. For example, Master Roshi is a frail old man, but still capable of destroying mountains with his Kamehameha attack. For another example, IIRC, only certain (Saiyan) souls were born with the potential to become super-saiyans, while others had to focus long and hard to reach that potential. Certainly Dragonball (/Z) is a good example of how Ki can be different from Martial, even if the series itself doesn't clearly distinguish the two ideas.
Suffice to say, no matter how much weight you can press, you're going to be in for a surprise if you're expecting to spray laser-beams out your ass.
Characters from every power source train to develop their powers; characters from every power source also have powers which rely upon physical contact with their foes in order to deal damage. However, these qualities do not necessarily a Martial character make. Martial is obviously mostly about physical training, while Arcane is about study and practice of mystical techniques, while Ki training is (presumably) about training to channel the power of one's soul.
Dragonball Z doesn't emphasize the non-martial nature of Ki training, but I think it's still there. For example, Master Roshi is a frail old man, but still capable of destroying mountains with his Kamehameha attack. For another example, IIRC, only certain (Saiyan) souls were born with the potential to become super-saiyans, while others had to focus long and hard to reach that potential. Certainly Dragonball (/Z) is a good example of how Ki can be different from Martial, even if the series itself doesn't clearly distinguish the two ideas.
Suffice to say, no matter how much weight you can press, you're going to be in for a surprise if you're expecting to spray laser-beams out your ass.
In the Street Fighter or Dragon Ball settings, however, if you want your laser beams to be stronger, increasing your upper body strength and practicing punching people harder is apparently just as valid a training technique as firing laser beams again and again. I don't see how this makes either series an example of ki's soul-power being distinct from martial prowess, when both of them focus extensively on martial prowess.
Master Roshi is an old man with a notoriously powerful ki blast, but he can also beat the snot out of somebody without firing it once via pure beat-down. He's got an entire school of techniques for doing exactly that.
And your example of the Saiyans is irrelevant. So what if some characters are born with more potential than others?
In the Street Fighter or Dragon Ball settings, however, if you want your laser beams to be stronger, increasing your upper body strength and practicing punching people harder is apparently just as valid a training technique as firing laser beams again and again. I don't see how this makes either series an example of ki's soul-power being distinct from martial prowess, when both of them focus extensively on martial prowess.
Master Roshi is an old man with a notoriously powerful ki blast, but he can also beat the snot out of somebody without firing it once via pure beat-down. He's got an entire school of techniques for doing exactly that.
And your example of the Saiyans is irrelevant. So what if some characters are born with more potential than others?
I already pointed out to you that Dragonball doesn't really distinguish between Martial and Ki. It's a distinction that we are making, because the notion of blasting energy beams simply doesn't fit with Martial is meant to represent. (Obviously, DBZ doesn't have "power sources" like 4E does.) The reason we make this distinction is that the characters in Dragonball are clearly in the vein of Monks and martial artists, and since heir abilities don't appear to be Martial, we say, "Hey, this could be Ki!"
Dragonball is just an example; it's not supposed to be a model of 4E D&D in action.
I already pointed out to you that Dragonball doesn't really distinguish between Martial and Ki. It's a distinction that we are making, because the notion of blasting energy beams simply doesn't fit with Martial is meant to represent. (Obviously, DBZ doesn't have "power sources" like 4E does.) The reason we make this distinction is that the characters in Dragonball are clearly in the vein of Monks and martial artists, and since heir abilities don't appear to be Martial, we say, "Hey, this could be Ki!"
Dragonball is just an example; it's not supposed to be a model of 4E D&D in action.
So name something that does distinguish in a meaningful way between 'ki' and 'martial arts'. Please. If you're going to make the assertion that these concepts are separate, follow up.
So name something that does distinguish in a meaningful way between 'ki' and 'martial arts'. Please. If you're going to make the assertion that these concepts are separate, follow up.
Naruto.
In the Naruto manga, Neij Hyuga and Rock Lee are both roughly equally skilled martial artists. However, there is a big difference in how they fight and train. Rock Lee fights using overwhelming speed and physical strength. He beats his opponents by punching them very, very hard. He trains by doing a few thousand push-ups before breakfast, and running a couple of marathons before lunch.
Neiji Hyuga uses what is called in the series the Gentle Fist style, which is based on precise control over his chakra, the series' particular version of ki. When Neiji hits someone, he fires a focused pulse of chakra through his palm into his opponents body, disrupting his opponents internal organs. Since his attacks do not rely on physical power at all, he can debilitate or kill an opponent with just a light touch. Neiji's training seems to involve a lot meditation in addition to combat practice.
Rock Lee uses the Martial power source. Neiji Hyuga uses the Ki power source. Both are martial artists, but they are radically different in how they fight and train.
Naruto.
In the Naruto manga, Neij Hyuga and Rock Lee are both roughly equally skilled martial artists. However, there is a big difference in how they fight and train. Rock Lee fights using overwhelming speed and physical strength. He beats his opponents by punching them very, very hard. He trains by doing a few thousand push-ups before breakfast, and running a couple of marathons before lunch.
Neiji Hyuga uses what is called in the series the Gentle Fist style, which is based on precise control over his chakra, the series' particular version of ki. When Neiji hits someone, he fires a focused pulse of chakra through his palm into his opponents body, disrupting his opponents internal organs. Since his attacks do not rely on physical power at all, he can debilitate or kill an opponent with just a light touch. Neiji's training seems to involve a lot meditation in addition to combat practice.
Rock Lee uses the Martial power source. Neiji Hyuga uses the Ki power source. Both are martial artists, but they are radically different in how they fight and train.
The fact that their training methods are really very similar, two facets of the same thing in fact, reinforces my point. Not to mention the Eight Gates thing Rock Lee can do.
Neji is a practitioner of a specific style of martial arts, and trains much like other martial artists. The argument that one kind of martial art has the Ki power source and the other is Martial reinforces my point - there's very little to distinguish the two.
So name something that does distinguish in a meaningful way between 'ki' and 'martial arts'. Please. If you're going to make the assertion that these concepts are separate, follow up.
I don't have to, because I think that martial arts certainly can fall within the scope of the Ki power source. The fact that a Monk punches enemies with his fists doesn't make him any more "Martial" than a Paladin who smacks heathens with his hammer.
The distinction between Martial and other power sources is that Martial characters train primarily in mastering physical techniques to accomplish (pseudo-)realistic effects. Other power sources might also train to master physical techniques, but it won't be the primary focus of their training. For instance, Paladins (and other Divine characters) do practice combat maneuvers, but the primary focus of their training is enhancing their faith and their connection to the gods. In the case of Ki characters such as the Monk, they might also practice physical training, but the primary focus of Ki training would be harnessing the power of the soul. Thus, the training methods of Ki and Martial are fundamentally different.
Since you want me to follow up, it's worth pointing out that, no, characters in Dragonball don't generally seem to spend much time developing the power of the soul. Luckily for us though, we're not advocating that the Ki power source replicate the training methods of Dragonball characters, but rather that it replicate some of their abilities. Martial characters fight using (a fantasy-approximation of) Newtonian physics to damage foes through the use of fists, weapons, and mundane projectiles; in contrast, Dragonball characters regularly fight by generating and projecting huge blasts of "magical" energy from their body, something clearly outside the scope of the Martial power source. Thus, the combat methods of Dragonball characters and 4E's Martial characters are fundamentally different.
Now, let's acknowledge that the Monk class is a D&D approximation of the "martial artist" concept, which is similar to the basic concept of the characters in Dragonball. Because the Ki power source needs to be conceptually distinct from the Martial power source in terms of what each power source can accomplish, we're advocating that a Ki-based Monk class have access to DBZ-style energy attacks. In this way, Ki classes (or at least Monks) will be clearly distinct from Martial ones.
Martial classes get most of their personal power from skill that may start as innate but increases as a matter of constant training. Compared to all the other power sources, the martial power source doesn’t tend to look or feel magical. But since it’s the type of highly skilled weapon training that occurs in a world that’s full of magic, there are effects created by highly skilled martial characters that would certainly seem magical if they were occurring in our world. Unlike all the other power sources, the powers used by martial characters don’t have obvious magical special effects, no flashing auras, or looming spirits, or rays and bolts, or even after-effect images of an incredibly fast sword. Martial powers look like powers that a warrior or rogue in our non-magical world might use, even if they accomplish things that people in our world would have almost no chance of accomplishing.
Portions bolded for relevance in this discussion.
Now, note that yes, there are plenty of guys who just learn martial arts to beat the crap out of people without any of the metaphysical study (Brazillian Jujitsu and Krav Maga are good examples), but as an example, when I was a kid and wanted to learn Tae Kwon Do because I thought kicking people would be cool, I was sorely disappointed when I had to take a written test on Korean philosophy and demonstrate meditation poses as part of my first belt test.
It doesn't matter that martial artists train for hours a day and have finely chiseled muscles or whatever. They're just as likely to say, "yeah, I'm great because my daily training regimen made me strong" as they are to say, "yeah, I'm great because I'm disciplined and focused enough to have a daily training regimen at all."
So, I don't know, if martial artists in real life contribute their success to Chi/Hapki/Aiki/Prana/whatever you want to call your inner energy stuff, rather than physical prowess, then why is it far fetched for a fantasy martial artist to be actually correct about it?
So once again, we're back to my main point - even the best available examples of the archetypes the Ki power source is assumed to represent are primarily Martial characters. They've got a few - some of them several abilities that are beyond the redefined Martial archetype. Those abilities are indistinguishable in nature from Arcane or Psionic abilities - especially Psi, because the concept comes from the exact same material as Ki. Which means it's a little difficult to come up with something distinct for Ki.
What is saying that Psionics are even keeping the mind over body stuff? It is quite possible that the Psychic Warrior and Soul Knife have left the Psi household and decided to move into the Ki house with the Monk, Ninja and Samurai.
Those abilities are indistinguishable in nature from Arcane or Psionic abilities - especially Psi, because the concept comes from the exact same material as Ki. Which means it's a little difficult to come up with something distinct for Ki.
What makes you claim that Psi and Ki are indistinguishable? Psionics is primarily based on various ideas of what psychics could do. As such, telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, hypnosis and the like are some of the most distinguishing powers of Psionics. Now then, Psionics has been expanded to include stuff like projecting energy blades from your fingertips, but I would argue that such powers are way outside of the core concept of Psionics, and would be better suited as being a part of the Ki power source (yes, I think the Soulknife should be a Ki class in 4E).
So while Ki and Psionics have overlapped at times in concept depending on the author, I think their fundamental concepts are different enough to distinguish them.
What makes you claim that Psi and Ki are indistinguishable? Psionics is primarily based on various ideas of what psychics could do. As such, telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, hypnosis and the like are some of the most distinguishing powers of Psionics. Now then, Psionics has been expanded to include stuff like projecting energy blades from your fingertips, but I would argue that such powers are way outside of the core concept of Psionics, and would be better suited as being a part of the Ki power source (yes, I think the Soulknife should be a Ki class in 4E).
So while Ki and Psionics have overlapped at times in concept depending on the author, I think their fundamental concepts are different enough to distinguish them.
If you'll do a bit of research, you'll find that the idea of psionics is rooted heavily in the the very same Asian sources that the more astonishing 'ki' stories come from. The mysticism of China and India.
You're going to have to go ahead and explain. Psionics was based on the exact same concepts that 'ki' is to begin with, even before the concept came to D&D, so I don't see why they'd be necessarily different in this case.
Both are similar in that they tend to be linked to various kinds of meditation and mysticism, but they are fundamentally different.
Psionics is primarily concerned with the power to either know things through extrasensory perception (mind-reading, telepathy, clairvoyance, etc), or essentially rewrite reality with the mind (starting fires with thoughts, lifting things telekinetically, alter probability, etc). The direct translation of thought to effect is the most important part of this. Because of this, the actual physical body of the psionicist is completely irrelevant in most portrayals. Psionic effects do not depend on the user have a strong, well-trained body, and more than 90% of the time there is no physical connection or direct path of energy linking psionicist to effect (they don't shoot fire, they cause it to spontaneously appear). In many portrayals the psionicist does not even need to be physically present in order to cause a significant effect. What is more, more often than not psychic power is described as an inborn talent, something that can be honed if you have it, but is completely out of reach to anyone who doesn't have an innate gift. Almost all of these details are totally opposite of the classic portrayal of Ki.
Ki is 100% linked to physical training and a strong physical body. What is more, it is almost always portrayed as something that anyone can use with the right training, not something that is a matter of having an inborn gift (talent helps, but is not necessary). Ki is a flow of energy that resides within an individual person, so whenever it does anything it must emanate from the user's body, whether through physical contact (Naruto Gentle Fist attacks), a straight-line flow of power (AKA a Kamehameha Wave), or something similar. Ki users are commonly portrayed as being able to sense the spiritual power within others, but true "extrasensory perception" is almost always outside its realm.
There are a number of other factors as well, such as the strong link between Psionics and the idea of the subconscious (and often the dark sides of such), whereas Ki is linked to enlightenment, willpower, and the "ideal/true self".
This is, in fact, my whole problem. You take a concept, rename it, universalize it for general use, and suddenly it's apparently not ethnic enough, so you go back to the original concept. Seems a bit pointless.
I really have no idea what you are talking about here.
The examples given were Street Fighter and Dragon Ball, which is interesting. From the Dragon Ball and DBZ series, and the Street Fighter anime and manga, we have some idea of how those characters train and fight, and most of it seems to be clearly Martial in nature - conditioning the body for use in combat. And in Street Fighter, and to some extent in Dragon Ball despite how high-powered everything is, most of the combat consists primarily of people trying to hit each other very hard with their well-trained bodies. Not seeing how this lends itself to a power source being clearly defined from Martial. Dragon Ball Z even explicitly states that the strength of their ki is strongly related to physical strength and training.
Even within Dragon Ball the distinction between training ki and pure physical training is made clear. The two are related, certainly (as they are in all depictions of Ki), but training one will not necessarily train the other. If nothing else, the case of the characters Hercule (AKA Mr. Satan) and his daughter Videl makes that pretty clear. Both characters achieved an impressive amount of strength (for any normal perspective) through pure martial training, but only Videl was able to surpass that and learn how to fly thanks to special training in Ki that she received from others. There are a number of other similar distinctions made throughout the series, actually.
Think of it this way: pure physical training is necessary to master the use of ki, but it is not sufficient. Physical training will increase the raw amount of ki you possess, but that is useless to you unless you also train how to use that ki. This is an idea that is fairly central to most depictions of ki use.
If you'll do a bit of research, you'll find that the idea of psionics is rooted heavily in the the very same Asian sources that the more astonishing 'ki' stories come from. The mysticism of China and India.
And Arcane, Divine, and Primal magic all have their roots in the same mystical traditions that date back to ancient times, and almost entirely indistinguishable in historical traditions. Ki and Psionics have probably diverged in concept more than those three have, actually. What is important is the modern idea of these things, not their roots.
If you'll do a bit of research, you'll find that the idea of psionics is rooted heavily in the the very same Asian sources that the more astonishing 'ki' stories come from. The mysticism of China and India.
The Society for Psychical Research called, something about wanting their clairvoyance back. Odd, though, they created the message over a hundred and twenty years ago, it's been sitting in a box in the attic until today.
So once again, we're back to my main point - even the best available examples of the archetypes the Ki power source is assumed to represent are primarily Martial characters.
You haven't demonstrated that the distinction we're making between Ki and Martial isn't sufficient.
I thought we had quite clearly how Martial and Ki are different, but you keep looking for examples which don't exist. There are no real-life examples of Ki that are provably distinct from Martial because these are fantasy concepts from a game, and there aren't any good fictional examples because we're debating a specific company's unreleased IP, not real-world concepts (despite that it may have been inspired by real-world mythology).
They've got a few - some of them several abilities that are beyond the redefined Martial archetype. Those abilities are indistinguishable in nature from Arcane or Psionic abilities - especially Psi, because the concept comes from the exact same material as Ki. Which means it's a little difficult to come up with something distinct for Ki.
It's tough to find differences when one is looking so hard for similarities, Matthias. Yes, there is conceptual overlap between power sources, but it's limited. Martial is fairly unique among power sources, in that it has something of a real-world conceptual referent, while the others do not. In the real world, descriptions of the supernatural are flavoured by the person doing the describing; a real-world ritual might be described as "magic" (Arcane, Elemental, or Shadow?), as "religion" (Divine, Primal, or Ki?), as "shamanism" (Primal, Elemental, or Arcane?), as powered by the mind (Arcane or Psionic?), by the soul (Divine or Ki?), by internal forces (Ki or Psionic?), or by "spirits" (any of Arcane, Divine, Primal, Elemental, Shadow, or Ki, depending on the type of "spirits"). My point is that real-world descriptions of "magic" are extremely nebulous.
Because real-world descriptions are so nebulous, in 4E D&D, where each power source needs to be distinct, differences are established by theme and game mechanics. (Since Martial doesn't suffer from this problem, it's already distinct.) Thematically, the power sources are literally defined by the source of power that they grant: Divine channels the power of deities; Arcane taps the hidden undercurrents of reality; Primal conjures the power of the spirits of nature; Psionics draws upon the power of the sentient mind; Elemental invokes the forces of cosmic creation; Shadow evokes the power of light and darkness, life and death; Ki uses the spark of power contained within each soul. Mechanically, the differences are somewhat arbitrarily assigned, but they exist; it's really just a matter of playing up specific aspects of each theme.
As far as distinguishing Psionics from Arcane (or Elemental, or Shadow, etc.), consider that what used to be "psionic" isn't necessarily so anymore in 4E. Likewise, we already know that some of what is Psionic in 4E wasn't in previous editions; for instance, we know that even though several power sources gain "charm-", "domination-", and "mental enchantment-" type powers, these will be the primary domain of Psionics, thanks to that power source's association with the thematic concept of "the mind". In the same vein, it's reasonable to assume that Ki will similarly distinguish itself somehow as "the power source of the soul", incorporating concepts from beyond the limited notion of "ki" established by 3E's Monks.
If you'll do a bit of research, you'll find that the idea of psionics is rooted heavily in the the very same Asian sources that the more astonishing 'ki' stories come from. The mysticism of China and India.
The real-world origins of "psionic" concepts isn't really that relevant, especially when you consider we've been arguing that 4E's Ki shouldn't be associated so closely with any specific culture.
So, what you're saying is that there is no basis for a separation of ki from any of the existing concepts. Not real-world, not existing fictional, nothing. But if we try hard enough, we can cram one in. Sure, sounds great.
Who are you responding to? Because that sure as hell wasn't what I was saying.
Use the quote button.
Who are you responding to? Because that sure as hell wasn't what I was saying.
Use the quote button.
It was a long quote. And that might not be what you meant to say, but sum up the whole thing, and that's what you get.
It was a long quote. And that might not be what you meant to say, but sum up the whole thing, and that's what you get.
I can't be held responsible for your ignorance if you're not willing to bother to read carefully.
More to the point though, you're not looking for differences at all, Matthias. You're only looking for the parts that make Ki similar to other power sources, and then arguing that Ki is redundant. Worse, you're asking us to prove it's not redundant with other power sources when it's public knowledge that there's hardly any information available about Ki in 4E. We've thrown you a bone and given you honest, reasonable speculation, but you continue to presuppose that Ki is unnecessary. We've already been given that Ki will be an upcoming power source, so we're imagining how it will work (and arguing about ways that we don't want it to work).
Honestly, I'm not even sure what argument you're trying to make is anymore. Based upon a number of your earlier quotes, I'm beginning to think that you're more interesting in complaining that a Ki power source exists than imagining ways to make it interesting.
I can't be held responsible for your ignorance if you're not willing to bother to read carefully.
More to the point though, you're not looking for differences at all, Matthias. You're only looking for the parts that make Ki similar to other power sources, and then arguing that Ki is redundant. Worse, you're asking us to prove it's not redundant with other power sources when it's public knowledge that there's hardly any information available about Ki in 4E. We've thrown you a bone and given you honest, reasonable speculation, but you continue to presuppose that Ki is unnecessary. We've already been given that Ki will be an upcoming power source, so we're imagining how it will work (and arguing about ways that we don't want it to work).
Honestly, I'm not even sure what argument you're trying to make is anymore. Based upon a number of your earlier quotes, I'm beginning to think that you're more interesting in complaining that a Ki power source exists than imagining ways to make it interesting.
Now that you mention it, yes. Ki as a power source should be scrapped, and its ideas used to expand concepts that do warrant their own separate power sources.
I'm reading all the examples, and I'm not finding any compelling reason why most of them shouldn't be Martial, maybe with a bit of Psionic or Arcane multiclassing.
But why should we?
Even if Ki were nothing but the "martial arts power source," it would still have a reason to exist. There are stylistic differences between melee combat in martial arts movies and in what for now I'll call western fantasy. These extend to the types of abilities the characters have (conan trains his body until he can beat up fifteen men, Li Feng trains his body until he can balance on a reed, run across water, and then beat up fifteen men), as well as to the stylistic differences in fight scene choreography (western movies tend to favor a sort of brawl atmosphere, see Lord of the Rings for reference, japanese martial arts movies tend to favor an almost... well, I don't have a better word for it, "western" aesthetic, and by western I mean western movies with gunfighters and sheriffs and cattle rustlers, with the staredown, the draw, the flurry of violence, and and the pause while you wait to see who shot, er, I mean slashed, first, and the finale as one character slumps to the ground).
One of the biggest purposes of a class in D&D is to help people recreate characters that match their favorite characters from fantasy media. Even if Ki did nothing but provide a home for "martial" characters who's "martial" powers exceed the fantastical threshold of the actual martial power source, while using "ki" as the justification for why the monk can, I dunno, run up walls or something, then it would still have a reason to exist. Even if Ki did nothing but provide a home for characters who fight using the aesthetics and choreography frequently found in anime and martial arts movies, it would STILL have a reason to exist.
Personally, I suspect it will do a little more than that. But if it didn't, it would still have its place.
If I was seeing any ideas that went in directions where the existing power sources haven't already blazed the trail, I'd be all for it. But that's not what I'm seeing. I'm an anime fan. I'm a martial arts instructor. My favorite manga series right now is History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi. I'm really strongly in favor of integrating this stuff in the best way possible. But I'm not convinced the current direction is the best one, or even a viable one.
Thats why Ki needs to move more to its non-deific spiritual true self then to the 'martial artist' form more westerns associate with it. In its basic form, Ki/Soul/Spirtual power would be more akin to a blending of Primal with Divine power sources.
Not sure why this would still be called Ki, or why it would be appropriate for the Monk class.
Thats why Ki needs to move more to its non-deific spiritual true self then to the 'martial artist' form more westerns associate with it. In its basic form, Ki/Soul/Spirtual power would be more akin to a blending of Primal with Divine power sources.
Aye, and Ki can do that by eating Incarnum and stealing its stuff.
.....Is it just me, or does almost everything in 4e involve the phrase "Ate X and took its stuff?"
This might be - and I'm just guessing here - due to the game being made by English-speakers for an English-speaking audience. It would follow that they use words from the English language in the rules whenever possible.
Terms such as Samurai and Ninja have entered into english use. I can look them both up in an english dictionary. It lists them as being of Japanese origin and only defines them in a historical context, but it also lists Paladin as having French origins and and only mentions their historical context as the knights of Charlemagne and later as a general title for a defender of a just cause (but not one word about divine powers or even any religious context).
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To answer another post, that I can't seem to find at the moment; you want an example of a fictional series that depicts a difference between martial and ki? How about YuYuHakasho.
In that series the main protagonist is a tough street brawler (martial) with immense hidden spiritual potential (ki). Even as he learns to harness his spiritual power his fighting style remained physically oriented (mostly punches and kicks), but its made clear that while physically strong what makes his attacks effective is that they are reinforced by his spirit. In fact, early on in the series he would occasionally run out of spiritual power during exceptionally tough or long fights. He still retained his impressive physical prowess but with out any spiritual potency to back it up his punches were ineffective at causing any real damage to his supernatural opponents. He could still knock them over, due to leverage and momentum, but he couldn't injure them.
True, in this example martial is presented as inferior to ki, but that's because it is ostensibly set in the real world, with Ki largely being the only method of achieving super-human ability.
Also, in this series characters are actual depicted as performing spiritual training. While the main protagonists training does include brutal physical exertion, it is made clear that the physical training is only to exhaust his body and thus force him to use and discipline his spirit to push though.
Not sure why this would still be called Ki, or why it would be appropriate for the Monk class.
'cause Ki has a lot more to do with internal energy than it does with martial artists, but there is room for an unarmed striker using Ki who is like a paladin and has both martial and ki sides to him.
Terms such as Samurai and Ninja have entered into english use. I can look them both up in an english dictionary. It lists them as being of Japanese origin and only defines them in a historical context, but it also lists Paladin as having French origins and and only mentions their historical context as the knights of Charlemagne and later as a general title for a defender of a just cause (but not one word about divine powers or even any religious context).
Basically, when trying to give something a name, you use the word that is most likely to be familiar to your audience.
To answer another post, that I can't seem to find at the moment; you want an example of a fictional series that depicts a difference between martial and ki? How about YuYuHakasho.
In that series the main protagonist is a tough street brawler (martial) with immense hidden spiritual potential (ki). Even as he learns to harness his spiritual power his fighting style remained physically oriented (mostly punches and kicks), but its made clear that while physically strong what makes his attacks effective is that they are reinforced by his spirit. In fact, early on in the series he would occasionally run out of spiritual power during exceptionally tough or long fights. He still retained his impressive physical prowess but with out any spiritual potency to back it up his punches were ineffective at causing any real damage to his supernatural opponents. He could still knock them over, due to leverage and momentum, but he couldn't injure them.
True, in this example martial is presented as inferior to ki, but that's because it is ostensibly set in the real world, with Ki largely being the only method of achieving super-human ability.
Also, in this series characters are actual depicted as performing spiritual training. While the main protagonists training does include brutal physical exertion, it is made clear that the physical training is only to exhaust his body and thus force him to use and discipline his spirit to push though.
This is an unsuitable model for a number of reasons, as you acknowledge. And I'm sure you will also agree that martial ability and ki are very closely related, even here.
If there was any sort of real basis for distinction there, I'd agree with you, Cadfan. More power sources mean more variety, and that's a good thing. However, more power sources with conceptual overlap just limit each other. There's no reason why the Monk couldn't be handled with a Martial base with some more fantastic Paragon Paths - see Stormwarden for an example.
1. The Stormwarden is a bit of an aberration. Notice that after the PHB other paragon paths that are available to martial classes but which grant magical effects have new power source keywords added. The Shadow Captain, for example, is a paragon path for the Warlord, but its powers have the Shadow keyword. If the Stormwarden were written today, it would almost undoubtedly have either the Arcane or Primal keyword for some of its powers.
2. If you leave the Stormwarden out of things, the martial power source really doesn't get that wild. Sometimes it lets you shift an enemy a few spaces without touching them. Occasionally a power themed one way can be used another way that's relatively unrealistic, like Blinding Barrage- its clearly themed after throwing a couple of shuriken at a couple of people, but you can use it with a crossbow even though it violates the crossbow's regular loading speed. We could probably dig through and find one or two more powers that stick out for breaking realism more than the norm, but the traditional level of realism really isn't that far out.
3. The martial power source seems to stick to things that make sense given the tropes of western fantasy. The Battlerager, for example, is Rocky in armor. Tropes of wuxia or anime or fantasy derived from martial arts mythology aren't well represented in the martial power source. And they probably shouldn't be- there's an established level of fantastical-ness in the martial class. Sorry, I know that's not a word, but it conveys what I want. A martial character doesn't get to snatch an arrow right out of the air. He doesn't get to run straight up a wall. He certainly doesn't get to slash his sword through the air so fast that the shockwave knocks down someone ten feet away. He doesn't get to sprint across the surface of a lake. Ki characters probably should be doing all of these things.
Wire-fu characters are often described as training to gain their powers, but the existing martial characters, no matter how they train, aren't going to learn to, say, punch someone so hard they catch a terminal disease. The martial power source may exceed real life capabilities, but it doesn't exceed them that far or in that way. Ki provides a convenient explanation for why a wuxia character can do the things he or she does.
Wire-fu exists. Its fans deserve to be able to play characters who use it. Ki provides the best way to make it happen under a fantasy-plausible conceptual framework. Even if ki does nothing else, this will be enough.
PS- Someone earlier was asking for examples of characters with ki power and characters with martial power from literature or popular fantasy. Their contention was essentially that if no one could show an example of these things being differentiated, then they weren't different. That is exactly the wrong way to look at things. In a fantasy universe where everyone can train hard and learn to run up walls or catch a sword blade between their palms, you don't need a special explanation for it. The guy who did it can do it because he trained really hard, and the guys who can't didn't train enough. But in a universe where these abilities are NOT the norm, it becomes more necessary to explain why some people have these powers and others can't.
You can see this effect in myths about magic, actually. And in fantasy literature. Nobody delineates power sources if there's only one available. Was Carrie using innate arcane magic or psychic powers? Does it matter, given that she's the only one who has these powers, and there's no one to compare to? If she lived in a story world where other characters consorted with evil spirits to grant themselves powers of witchery, then it would matter whether Carrie's powers were like theirs or different. But since she's alone, its enough that she's just got them.
'cause Ki has a lot more to do with internal energy than it does with martial artists, but there is room for an unarmed striker using Ki who is like a paladin and has both martial and ki sides to him.
You're transforming an energy that is associated with breath and compared to blood into something pseudo-religious. Makes it inappropriate for the Monk, and not suitable to be called Ki.
You're transforming an energy that is associated with breath and compared to blood into something pseudo-religious. Makes it inappropriate for the Monk, and not suitable to be called Ki.
Ki energy is also compared to 'soul' It is quasi-spiritual which has nothing to with religion.
It is frequently translated as "energy flow," and is often compared to Western notions of energeia or élan vital (vitalism) as well as the yogic notion of prana. The literal translation is "air," "breath," or "gas" (compare the original meaning of Latin spiritus "breathing"; or the Common Greek πνεῦμα, meaning "air," "breath," or "spirit"; and the Sanskrit term prana, "breath" ).
See part of the failing is that to the Japanese, Blood and Blood Type is mystical in the same astrological signs are vaguely in the west.
When I think of Psionics, I think mostly of Jean Grey and Professor Xavier from the X-Men; when I think of Ki, I think mostly of Dragonball Z and the 3E concept of the Monk. In my mind, these concepts are basically nothing alike.
I can't relate to the notion of Ki and Psionics being thematically redundant.
1. The Stormwarden is a bit of an aberration. Notice that after the PHB other paragon paths that are available to martial classes but which grant magical effects have new power source keywords added. The Shadow Captain, for example, is a paragon path for the Warlord, but its powers have the Shadow keyword. If the Stormwarden were written today, it would almost undoubtedly have either the Arcane or Primal keyword for some of its powers.
2. If you leave the Stormwarden out of things, the martial power source really doesn't get that wild. Sometimes it lets you shift an enemy a few spaces without touching them. Occasionally a power themed one way can be used another way that's relatively unrealistic, like Blinding Barrage- its clearly themed after throwing a couple of shuriken at a couple of people, but you can use it with a crossbow even though it violates the crossbow's regular loading speed. We could probably dig through and find one or two more powers that stick out for breaking realism more than the norm, but the traditional level of realism really isn't that far out.
Perfect. Make the Monk a Martial class with some Psi Paragon Path options. Problem solved.
3. The martial power source seems to stick to things that make sense given the tropes of western fantasy. The Battlerager, for example, is Rocky in armor. Tropes of wuxia or anime or fantasy derived from martial arts mythology aren't well represented in the martial power source. And they probably shouldn't be- there's an established level of fantastical-ness in the martial class. Sorry, I know that's not a word, but it conveys what I want. A martial character doesn't get to snatch an arrow right out of the air. He doesn't get to run straight up a wall. He certainly doesn't get to slash his sword through the air so fast that the shockwave knocks down someone ten feet away. He doesn't get to sprint across the surface of a lake. Ki characters probably should be doing all of these things.
Read some old fantasy stories. You'll find your examples. Besides, you're basically saying that Ki gets to be more awesome than Martial, because anime and wuxia are more high-powered on average than modern Western fantasy.
I'm snipping the rest of your post, because my reply appears to cover all of it. The only reason why one character can perform these physical feats and others can't is because the ones who can are better, stronger, and more skilled. I reject the idea that Asian = Better, and so I reject the idea that these should be limited to the Ki power source.
I'm reading all the examples, and I'm not finding any compelling reason why most of them shouldn't be Martial, maybe with a bit of Psionic or Arcane multiclassing.
Multi-classing is not, and should not, always be the answer. To say otherwise is to say that classes such as Paladin and Swordmage shouldn't exist (their just fighters multi-classed into a supernatural power source). Yet, those classes are both able to accomplish a blending that goes beyond anything multi-classing could accomplish. They both manage to fulfill the same use as a fighter in a group structure, but they do so in mechanical unique ways and with a flavorer all their own.
Multi-classing is a great tool for creating new and unusual concepts, but fundamental concepts deserve their own class. Sure classes such as the Samurai could just be sub-categorized under existent classes, but why should we limit ourselves when a separate class could bring something entirely new and distinct into play. While such new classes could be wholly original works of never before seen fantasy, why bother while their are perfectly useful and valid cultural archetypes that people are already familiar with.
I'm just going to toss this out there:
When I think of Psionics, I think mostly of Jean Grey and Professor Xavier from the X-Men; when I think of Ki, I think mostly of Dragonball Z and the 3E concept of the Monk. In my mind, these concepts are basically nothing alike.
I can't relate to the notion of Ki and Psionics being thematically redundant.
Agreed. About the only thing they share is meditation.
Although, let me note- I really, really want the Psionic power source to be the Western Comic Book power source. It won't be, but I'd love to see a D&D-ization of the tropes of comic books.
I'm just going to toss this out there:
When I think of Psionics, I think mostly of Jean Grey and Professor Xavier from the X-Men; when I think of Ki, I think mostly of Dragonball Z and the 3E concept of the Monk. In my mind, these concepts are basically nothing alike.
I can't relate to the notion of Ki and Psionics being thematically redundant.
Never heard of yogis?
Ki energy is also compared to 'soul' It is quasi-spiritual which has nothing to with religion.
See part of the failing is that to the Japanese, Blood and Blood Type is mystical in the same astrological signs are vaguely in the west.
Right. Which is why I see it as having not much at all to do with Primal or Divine.
Right. Which is why I see it as having not much at all to do with Primal or Divine.
Primal is essentially the 'feywild' power source
Divine is the Astral Sea power source
Ki is what makes a mortal different from both. Which is where its power comes from.
Edit>
Basically to me, there are two overeaching sources of power in 4E
Interal and External
From there you have: Studious, Godly.
Arcane is: External and Studious
Primal is External and Godly (specifically Feywild)
Divine is External and Godly
Martial is Internal and Studious
Ki will be Internal and Godly.
Read some old fantasy stories. You'll find your examples. Besides, you're basically saying that Ki gets to be more awesome than Martial, because anime and wuxia are more high-powered on average than modern Western fantasy.
Ok, your logic kind of twisted around on itself. I see what you did mentally, and you should stop and retrace your thinking.
You reasoned that because I'm letting what I'm calling "ki users" get to do stuff that martial characters can't, and because both of them trained their bodies, I'm letting ki users be "more awesome." The problem is that this only makes sense if you reject what I ALSO said about ki users using ki to power their abilities, and if you assume that I don't intend for ki users to be balanced with martial characters.
Ki users are only "martial but more awesome" if you make them martial in the first place. And they're only unbalanced if you make them unbalanced, which you don't need to do.
Swordmages fight with swords just like a fighter, AND they SHOOT FIRE AT PEOPLE! By the reasoning you applied, swordmages are fighters except more awesome. But they're not, they have a reason for why they can shoot fire and a fighter can't (they studied magic, the fighter didn't), and they're balanced with the fighter because the fighter has abilities they haven't got.
Similarly, a hypothetical ki using class might fight with swords just like a fighter, AND be able to RUN ACROSS STILL WATER or whatever. That doesn't make them fighters except more awesome, if you provide an explanation for why they can do what they do (ki), and if you balance the classes just like you balance anything else in the game.
Agreed. About the only thing they share is meditation.
Although, let me note- I really, really want the Psionic power source to be the Western Comic Book power source. It won't be, but I'd love to see a D&D-ization of the tropes of comic books.
D&D has always grown means for itself to reflect popular concepts within its rules. The Barbarian was more or less a D&D ripoff of Conan; Oriental Adventures was D&D's answer to wuxia and samurai flicks; the Whirlwind feat in 3E immediately conjured an image of Link's "Spin Attack" from the Legend of Zelda series, IMHO.
I think it's actually not unlikely that Psionics will reflect a few popular concepts related to the idea, perhaps including Western comic books.
Never heard of yogis?
Sure I have, but "pic-ah-nic baskets" don't come up in my games very often. :P
Seriously, yoga has never seemed especially relevant to my games either. To me, a yogi would be either an exotic Divine character, or a Monk. Neither one inspires me in any way similar to how psychics in the X-Men do. These things are different, Matthias.
Ok, your logic kind of twisted around on itself. I see what you did mentally, and you should stop and retrace your thinking.
You reasoned that because I'm letting what I'm calling "ki users" get to do stuff that martial characters can't, and because both of them trained their bodies, I'm letting ki users be "more awesome." The problem is that this only makes sense if you reject what I ALSO said about ki users using ki to power their abilities, and if you assume that I don't intend for ki users to be balanced with martial characters.
Ki users are only "martial but more awesome" if you make them martial in the first place. And they're only unbalanced if you make them unbalanced, which you don't need to do.
Swordmages fight with swords just like a fighter, AND they SHOOT FIRE AT PEOPLE! By the reasoning you applied, swordmages are fighters except more awesome. But they're not, they have a reason for why they can shoot fire and a fighter can't (they studied magic, the fighter didn't), and they're balanced with the fighter because the fighter has abilities they haven't got.
Similarly, a hypothetical ki using class might fight with swords just like a fighter, AND be able to RUN ACROSS STILL WATER or whatever. That doesn't make them fighters except more awesome, if you provide an explanation for why they can do what they do (ki), and if you balance the classes just like you balance anything else in the game.
But your examples were of Ki users doing purely physical things that Martial characters couldn't, for some arbitrary reason. Swordmages aren't like Fighters because while they both use weapons, the Swordmage is using weapons and magic, while the Fighter focuses on using the weapons effectively. The difference between a Martial swordsman and a Ki swordsman is what? Both concepts are rooted in the mastery of the body, discipline, and skill with weapons, but for some reason the Ki swordsman is allowed feats of speed, power, and precision that the Martial character isn't. Why? How does that make sense?
Basically, when trying to give something a name, you use the word that is most likely to be familiar to your audience.
This is true and thanks to Hollywood and anime/manga exported from Japan names such as "Ninja" and "Samurai" are widly known around the world.
This is an unsuitable model for a number of reasons, as you acknowledge. And I'm sure you will also agree that martial ability and ki are very closely related, even here.
Picky aren't you? If you're are going to try and insist on an example were both "martial" and "ki" power sources are existent and are equally, there aren't that many. That's because it is very common in most fictions for only one source of superhuman capability to exist. D&D is very much an aberration as it incorporates many ideals from numerous fictions and mythologies and tries to given then equally billing.
About the only other major fiction outlet that mixes together multiple means of achieving superhuman ability that I can think of is super hero comic books. I'm sure that someone on these boards more familiar with comics than I am could find you the example your looking for. Though even their truly mundane heroes (martial power source) are typically less extraordinary then those with other "real" super powers.
Sure I have, but "pic-ah-nic baskets" don't come up in my games very often. :P
Seriously, yoga has never seemed especially relevant to my games either. To me, a yogi would be either an exotic Divine character, or a Monk. Neither one inspires me in any way similar to how psychics in the X-Men do. These things are different, Matthias.
Errr... No. I'm talking about yogis. If you can't be bothered to look them up, I'll help you - the stories were the inspiration for the Jedi and much of our modern concept of Psionics. Telekinesis, telepathy, precognition, etc. As the result of mastery of ki.
This is true and thanks to Hollywood and anime/manga exported from Japan names such as "Ninja" and "Samurai" are widly known around the world.
I'll edit this part when I remember what this branch of the discussion was about and why it was relevant. Something about pointing out that the names in the PHB were in English. Wait, I think I got it.
The further afield we go for a name, the more it seems deliberate, and you confer more flavor from that name on the result. It's easy to play a ninja with the Rogue class, but if a class is called Ninja, it's hard to imagine what it could be used to play apart from a ninja.
Picky aren't you? If you're are going to try and insist on an example were both "martial" and "ki" power sources are existent and are equally, there aren't that many. That's because it is very common in most fictions for only one source of superhuman capability to exist. D&D is very much an aberration as it incorporates many ideals from numerous fictions and mythologies and tries to given then equally billing.
About the only other major fiction outlet that mixes together multiple means of achieving superhuman ability that I can think of is super hero comic books. I'm sure that someone on these boards more familiar with comics than I am could find you the example your looking for. Though even their truly mundane heroes (martial power source) are typically less extraordinary then those with other "real" super powers.
This is sort of my point. Ki becomes distinct in settings when the power of the body is limited to realistic or semi-realistic levels. When the strength and skill and awesomeness can take one from nobody all the way to godhood, it's seldom necessary to make the distinction.
Errr... No. I'm talking about yogis. If you can't be bothered to look them up, I'll help you - the stories were the inspiration for the Jedi and much of our modern concept of Psionics. Telekinesis, telepathy, precognition, etc. As the result of mastery of ki.
Heh. No. Modern Psionics has nothing to do with Indian Yogis. In fact, the word itself goes to a portmanteau of Psyche and Electronics proposed by Dr. Campbell as a method of mastering the powers of the mind in a machine like is commonly associated with Professor X and Jean Grey.
It has trappings of the Indian mysticism because in the time frame the early research was done, EVERYTHING mystical had trappings of eastern mysticism. Much like the 1800's everything had trappings from hermeticism.
Heh. No. Modern Psionics has nothing to do with Indian Yogis. In fact, the word itself goes to a portmanteau of Psyche and Electronics proposed by Dr. Campbell as a method of mastering the powers of the mind in a machine like is commonly associated with Professor X and Jean Grey.
It has trappings of the Indian mysticism because in the time frame the early research was done, EVERYTHING mystical had trappings of eastern mysticism. Much like the 1800's everything had trappings from hermeticism.
The part in bold is the part that proves my point.
The part in bold is the part that proves my point.
So a guy who has ankh around his neck is automatically an ancient Egyptian worshiper? Because thats what we are talking about.
Yogis are masters of Yoga, the vast majority of them practice Tantric Hinduism, which includes rigorous breathering excerises, denial, and hedonism (depending on flavor). It does not include telepathy or telekinesis. At least not on an appreciable level.
As Doc said, they fit much better as Ki or Divine.
Edit> Vast majority is probably over stating the case, Many of whom practice Tantric Hinduism which is the closest you find to appreciable supernatural powers being granted in Indic lore (at least to humans and not avatars).
Terms such as Samurai and Ninja have entered into english use. I can look them both up in an english dictionary. It lists them as being of Japanese origin and only defines them in a historical context, but it also lists Paladin as having French origins and and only mentions their historical context as the knights of Charlemagne and later as a general title for a defender of a just cause (but not one word about divine powers or even any religious context).
Two points with regard to this.
1) While Paladin may be listed as having French origins, you have to look all the way past the definitions of the term (of which there are several, and as you noted not all of them have to do with Charlemagne) to the actual origin listing to find that information. This is in stark contrast to the terms Samurai and Ninja, in which every definition includes mention of the terms being specifically Japanese.
2) The fact that divine powers or religious context are not mentioned in the definitions of Paladin comes as no surprise. Likewise, there is no mention of any concept such as Ki, mysticism, or anything else fantastical in the definitions of Samurai or Ninja, so I fail to see the point of you mentioning this. The issue at hand is that these classes have a strong Japanese flavor and are likely to get assigned to the "Asian" power source as a result, not that these classes' historical counterparts aren't defined as having supernatural powers.
Note: Dictionary.com is the reference source used for these terms, and the definitions are linked below.
Paladin
Samurai
Ninja
So a guy who has ankh around his neck is automatically an ancient Egyptian worshiper? Because thats what we are talking about.
Yogis are masters of Yoga, the vast majority of them practice Tantric Hinduism, which includes rigorous breathering excerises, denial, and hedonism (depending on flavor). It does not include telepathy or telekinesis. At least not on an appreciable level.
As Doc said, they fit much better as Ki or Divine.
Okay, trying to make this simpler, so maybe you'll actually follow.
Ever play any White Wolf games? How about Mage: The Ascension? Ever wonder why the Akashic Brotherhood's favored sphere was Mind? Where the idea for the Mind rotes with the funny foreign names came from?
The ideas that you call Psionics and not Ki were associated with ki many, many years before Eastern mysticism became fashionable in the West.
Errr... No. I'm talking about yogis. If you can't be bothered to look them up, I'll help you - the stories were the inspiration for the Jedi and much of our modern concept of Psionics. Telekinesis, telepathy, precognition, etc. As the result of mastery of ki.
I did look them up. Wikipedia didn't mention "ki", "psionics", telekinesis, telepathy, precognition, or another remotely like those terms, but there was talk of "piercing the sun" and "drinking the nectar".
Frankly, you're being pretty obnoxious at this point, Matthias. You're flippantly disregarding the opinions of others, even the ones taking the time to try to debate reasonably with you. So you don't like Ki? That's fine, but at this point your objections are beginning to read like smug, wordy temper-tantrums.
Maybe you should try taking a time out. You're taking us far afield of the topic at this point.
The ideas that you call Psionics and not Ki were associated with ki many, many years before Eastern mysticism became fashionable in the West.
This is completely irrelevant. We're not talking about reality or how things "used to be" before anything, we're talking about how these things fit into D&D. In D&D, Ki and Psionics have come to represent distinct thematic notions, both in terms of how they operate and what they can accomplish.
But the same thing applies. The idea that wuxia films are the same as stories about psychics is absurd.
I'm not talking about in D&D, I'm talking about in popular fantasy.
...Well, in theory at least. ;)
I'm not talking about in D&D, I'm talking about in popular fantasy.
But the same thing applies. The idea that wuxia films are the same as stories about psychics is absurd.
Just about as absurd as the idea that a story about a warlock is the same as a story about a bard, isn't it?
The entire "yogis" argument doesn't work at all. If you argue that two power sources should be merged together because they share some root origin somewhere in history, then you must argue that the entire concept of Power Sources must be scrapped in order to keep your own arguments consistent. I mean, the Jewish Kabballah is the root of all western "Arcane Magic", and the distinction between "Primal" and "Divine" is weaker and goes even further back. Ultimately, you are limited down to two Power Sources (Martial and Mystical), and even those can not be fully differentiated because of a million and half examples that break down the distinction. There is no historical basis for Power Sources, so it is foolish to look for a a historical justification for a Power Source.
What should be the justification for whether or not a Power Source should exist is whether or not it can make a significant distinction from other Power Sources, serve as the inspiration for classes, and add to the general diversity of options available to people playing the game. Ki easily fits into that criteria. It is similar to Martial, in that it is rooted in physical training, and it is similar to Psionics in that it is rooted in meditation and mysticism, but it is not a mere combination of the two and diverges from both for the same reasons that Martial and Psionic are distinct from each other.
Ultimately, the Ki Power Source is rooted in a particular style of fighting and storytelling presented in Hong Kong action movies and Japanese anime. Trying to present it as anything else, including the historical idea of "ki", is misleading. Ultimately, "ki" is just a loose justification for Wuxia wire-fu and supernatural powers in anime, two things which have a certain value and unique identity in of themselves.
Anyways, before you argue further I suggest that you actually try to wrap your mind around how many of the people in this thread view the Ki Power Source, rather than continue to argue that your view of it is the only one. If you actually understood what some of us want Ki to be, then you could not possibly have made some of the arguments that you did.
Ultimately, the Ki Power Source is rooted in a particular style of fighting and storytelling presented in Hong Kong action movies and Japanese anime. Trying to present it as anything else, including the historical idea of "ki", is misleading. Ultimately, "ki" is just a loose justification for Wuxia wire-fu and supernatural powers in anime, two things which have a certain value and unique identity in of themselves.
This is wise. But I've already told it to him at least twice, so I don't think it will make a difference.
At this point the only purpose of discussion is to hone our demagogical skills and entertain ourselves.
We all know that D&D isn't going to create a power source for yogis, but just might make a power source for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
Just about as absurd as the idea that a story about a warlock is the same as a story about a bard, isn't it?
Some accounts of the Pied Piper identify the figure of the Piper himself as being the Devil.
Besides, Bards perform magic. Music is a form of ordered ritual. Music has a long history of being linked to magic. Meanwhile, Warlocks make pacts with evil entities in order to learn magical rituals. In fact, all of Arcane can be described as "performing various rituals in order to secure the (possibly unseen) aid of various demons, angels, and elemental beings", with no requirement that the user is a member of a religious order, and the general idea that magic can be learned purely through the acquisition of knowledge. Both the Warlock and a Bard that uses magic easily fit within this specific and archetypical category.
That said, I have always been supportive of creating a distinct "Music Power Source" that gave the Bard and musical magic a more unique place in the game. Having more Power Sources isn't a bad thing.
Anyways, before you argue further I suggest that you actually try to wrap your mind around how many of the people in this thread view the Ki Power Source, rather than continue to argue that your view of it is the only one. If you actually understood what some of us want Ki to be, then you could not possibly have made some of the arguments that you did.
I really don't think you're bothering to try to understand my position at all. So let me get down to the basics.
About 90% of all the feats that are justified by some character using 'ki' are accomplished in another story by some other character using pure physical ability, determination, and badassery. There is precious little that inherently belongs to 'ki' that doesn't also fall under the domain of the Martial power source. Those feats - powers, in D&D terms - that don't fit into Martial 1) seldom exist without those Martial elements, 2) generally don't make up the majority of a character's abilities, and 3) closely match the concepts of other power sources. I don't really think there needs to be a Western and Eastern power source representing "discipline and focus." Do you? It seems a bit redundant. And redundant is bad.
A redundant power source needs to somehow be distinct. The devs need to stake out territory for it. What makes it different from all the others? What can you do with this power source that you couldn't do with this other that seems so similar? And when they do that, they're limiting those other power sources that seem so close. Why does a Monk need to be some incredibly spiritually focused character, when so many martial artists in fiction, so many monks in both fiction and history, focused exclusively on training the body and really didn't care about the spiritual?
I would love to find a decent compromise. I very much want all of these concepts to be part of D&D. But I also want the end result to be a good one. I feel that making Ki its own power source is too conceptually limiting. I read the PHB blurb, just like everybody - Ki will be its own power source. But I don't see how it can be its own distinct entity, because it never has been in any form of fiction.
That said, I have always been supportive of creating a distinct "Music Power Source" that gave the Bard and musical magic a more unique place in the game. Having more Power Sources isn't a bad thing.
I was just thinking about that today. I reached a similar conclusion- that the reason I didn't like the bard is because they went with the "jack of all trades" bard, and I wanted a musician. The bard feels like a great jack of all trades spellcaster. But not so much like a musician. Which makes it hard for me to come up with ways to merge the bard with other classes- I was going to draft a paragon path for a Games Workshop inspired Templar, who enters battle with the forces of evil singing hymns that grant him strength. But when even the Bard doesn't have abilities that *feel* musical rather than like spells, its hard to come up with a way to make my Templar *feel* like he's singing hymns instead of just applying some kind of divine bonus like he does with the rest of his paladin powers.
But I don't see how it can be its own distinct entity, because it never has been in any form of fiction.
By modeling a different genre of story and a different genre of hero from the ones modeled by the martial power source.
By modeling a different genre of story and a different genre of hero from the ones modeled by the martial power source.
But why are they somehow getting their powers from a different place?
The manga I linked to earlier. History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi. A different genre of story and a different genre of hero, for sure. Let's choose, for example, Apachai Hopachai, Muay Thai's God of Death, though any of the other masters could work as well. This is surely the kind of character that is supposed to be modeled by the Ki power source. What, exactly, makes his training fundamentally different from that of a melee Ranger, for instance? Is the distinction really so great? I don't see it. And I think creating a distinction between the two is doing both of them a disservice.
By modeling a different genre of story and a different genre of hero from the ones modeled by the martial power source.
................How?
I mean, I get the idea, the separation of western and eastern film, the divide between heroic figures, etc. What I don't see is how one will create a different class, both conceptually and mechanically, than another.
How will the Ki-based-Samurai actually be different the Fighter, yet not infringing upon the Swordsage's "sword magic" turf? What does the Ki-using-Ninja bring to the table that the Rogue's Dazzling Acrobatics, Hide in Plain Sight, and arsenal of condition attacks remain unable to match? What is the difference between the Ki monk and a martial artist who uses grapples, throws, and up close conditions?
If Ki can't evolve past "mystical martial", then it will always be the Red Headed Stepchild as we've seen in the Ki = Asian past, or will leave Martial out in the cold compared to its "Like Martial, but More Awesome" little sister.
The further afield we go for a name, the more it seems deliberate, and you confer more flavor from that name on the result. It's easy to play a ninja with the Rogue class, but if a class is called Ninja, it's hard to imagine what it could be used to play apart from a ninja.
Rogues (or thieves as they used to be called) struggled for years to find an identity beyond back-stabbing pick-pocket. Paladins still struggle to find an identity beyond holier-than-thou religious zealot (even if they can now be a crusading zealot for any god rather than just the lawful good ones). I've met people who don't get what dual-wielding and archery have being a "park ranger" and who would likely wounder what makes a guy who runs a prison (warden) a guy you want protecting you in a fight (and even if they except that will still wounder why he can grow horns and tangle enemies up with roots/vines).
Any class can be one dimensional when nobody is trying to make more of it or just doesn't understand it in the first place.
2) The fact that divine powers or religious context are not mentioned in the definitions of Paladin comes as no surprise. Likewise, there is no mention of any concept such as Ki, mysticism, or anything else fantastical in the definitions of Samurai or Ninja, so I fail to see the point of you mentioning this. The issue at hand is that these classes have a strong Japanese flavor and are likely to get assigned to the "Asian" power source as a result, not that these classes' historical counterparts aren't defined as having supernatural powers.
My point was that a word's real world meaning/origin need not restrict or dictate its use within the fictional setting that is D&D.
Let's choose, for example, Apachai Hopachai, Muay Thai's God of Death, though any of the other masters could work as well. This is surely the kind of character that is supposed to be modeled by the Ki power source. What, exactly, makes his training fundamentally different from that of a melee Ranger, for instance? Is the distinction really so great? I don't see it. And I think creating a distinction between the two is doing both of them a disservice.
The difference in training is purpose.
A "martial" character engages in a daily exercise regiment so that fatigue acids will damage muscle tissue allowing it to heal stronger then it was before. Having a toned and muscular body is the goal.
A "ki" character engages in a daily exercise regiment break down the barrier between his body and soul by pushing himself to the point of physical exhaustion and beyond. Having a toned and muscular body is just a side-effect, even if it's useful side-effect.
If Ki can't evolve past "mystical martial"
Hmm, like primal source and shaman?
I mean, I get the idea, the separation of western and eastern film, the divide between heroic figures, etc. What I don't see is how one will create a different class, both conceptually and mechanically, than another.
Lets say I want to create a character who can flip into the air and land balanced on his enemy's sword, and then spit a poison dart right through his foe's helmet visor and into his eye.
That exceeds the general level of supernatural-ness that the martial power source encompasses. Ki provides an explanation for why it can happen.
Also, a quick recap:
1. Whether Ki is the "asian power source" or not, wuxia should be represented somewhere and Ki is a logical home for it. If we can have western european fantasy, eastern european fantasy, norse fantasy, greek fantasy, egyptian fantasy, and irish fantasy all represented in D&D, we can have japanese or chinese fantasy too.
2. If by "martial but more awesome," you mean martial with a more wuxia feel, then by all means, lets embrace it.
3. If by "martial but more awesome," you mean "martial but broken," there's no reason that would need to be the case. The fact that the character does martial combat and also does wuxia moves just means that it will have to be balanced with that in mind, exactly the same way the swordmage was balanced with the fact that it does melee and it casts energy spells.
4. This doesn't infringe on the swordmage in the least. Yes, the swordmage does "sword magic," but the swordmage's sword magic is clearly modeled after traditional D&D wizardry. There are enormous stylistic differences between the swordmage and a typical wire-fu hong kong cinema character. If you can't see them then maybe classes like the Monk aren't for you- step aside let other people have classes that model the types of characters they want to play.
About 90% of all the feats that are justified by some character using 'ki' are accomplished in another story by some other character using pure physical ability, determination, and badassery. There is precious little that inherently belongs to 'ki' that doesn't also fall under the domain of the Martial power source. Those feats - powers, in D&D terms - that don't fit into Martial 1) seldom exist without those Martial elements, 2) generally don't make up the majority of a character's abilities, and 3) closely match the concepts of other power sources. I don't really think there needs to be a Western and Eastern power source representing "discipline and focus." Do you? It seems a bit redundant. And redundant is bad.
There is precious little that "inherently belongs" to any power source. Fact is, all three of your numbered assessments of Ki abilities are pure speculation. We have no information regarding what percentage of Ki powers will 1) be similar to Martial powers, 2) be "uniquely" Ki, and 3) will be similar to powers from other sources. In truth, we know almost nothing about Ki in 4E, and nearly all of that has been extrapolated from 3E's Monk. Consider also how widely classes can differ in theme, even within a power source; for example, compare the Warlock, who bargains for his power, to the Artificer, who learns magic by tinkering with it. How do you expect us to prove distinct something which we haven't even seen yet?
A redundant power source needs to somehow be distinct. The devs need to stake out territory for it. What makes it different from all the others? What can you do with this power source that you couldn't do with this other that seems so similar? And when they do that, they're limiting those other power sources that seem so close. Why does a Monk need to be some incredibly spiritually focused character, when so many martial artists in fiction, so many monks in both fiction and history, focused exclusively on training the body and really didn't care about the spiritual?
How about, "Because that's how D&D Monks roll,"? D&D Monks are an approximation of the "martial artist" concept, but not necessarily a direct reflection of it. Especially considering that A) there's no magic powers in real life, and B) the vast majority of fantasy fiction doesn't include the 4E concept of "power sources", it's no surprise that D&D Monks aren't exactly the same as those commonly seen in fiction and history. (It's easy to dispute your assertion that "so many monks in history... really didn't care about the spiritual," when in fact most of the historical and RL "monks", upon which D&D's Monk is based, are explicitly spiritual, to the point that we define them by their spiritual practices: martial training.)
I would love to find a decent compromise. I very much want all of these concepts to be part of D&D. But I also want the end result to be a good one. I feel that making Ki its own power source is too conceptually limiting. I read the PHB blurb, just like everybody - Ki will be its own power source. But I don't see how it can be its own distinct entity, because it never has been in any form of fiction.
As I'm sitting here trying to refute your arguments, I'm realizing just how abundantly clear it is that you (STILL!) aren't at all looking for ways in which Ki is distinct, and that this is colouring your perception of it. Since you consistently refuse to try to relate to the opinions of others, I'm forced to wonder if you're even able to do so. Have you considered the possibility that you might not be an imaginative person, Matthias?
Rogues (or thieves as they used to be called) struggled for years to find an identity beyond back-stabbing pick-pocket. Paladins still struggle to find an identity beyond holier-than-thou religious zealot (even if they can now be a crusading zealot for any god rather than just the lawful good ones). I've met people who don't get what dual-wielding and archery have being a "park ranger" and who would likely wounder what makes a guy who runs a prison (warden) a guy you want protecting you in a fight (and even if they except that will still wounder why he can grow horns and tangle enemies up with roots/vines).
Any class can be one dimensional when nobody is trying to make more of it or just doesn't understand it in the first place.
My point was that a word's real world meaning/origin need not restrict or dictate its use within the fictional setting that is D&D.
'Rogue' is more a description of a personality or behavior pattern than a set of abilities, but the current rules are certainly pretty evocative of an existing definition of the word.
'Ranger' is a word with many somewhat-related definitions, and while I'm not sure what Two-Weapon Fighting is supposed to have to do with anything, the use of the term to describe a skilled mobile fighter is certainly precedented.
'Paladin' might've been a poorly chosen word all along, but it's come to mean 'holy warrior,' and the current usage fits.
'Warden' is a term with a few uses as well, and the upcoming interpretation is a fairly novel one, it does work.
I don't see any support for your argument, which appears to be that WotC should feel free to use existing words with established meanings, and then make up a bunch of crap to make it mean instead. This goes for doctorhook, too. When you choose which word to use, you choose it to convey a meaning. If you go out of your way to choose a foreign word, it's implied that you're meaning to convey some very specific things with it. You can't just pick a word and make up a definition.
The difference in training is purpose.
A "martial" character engages in a daily exercise regiment so that fatigue acids will damage muscle tissue allowing it to heal stronger then it was before. Having a toned and muscular body is the goal.
A "ki" character engages in a daily exercise regiment break down the barrier between his body and soul by pushing himself to the point of physical exhaustion and beyond. Having a toned and muscular body is just a side-effect, even if it's useful side-effect.
What? Seriously? Says who? There are hundreds of characters within the genre that Ki is supposed to emulate who train their body and hone their skills and are not at all concerned with their soul. In addition, the Martial power source clearly doesn't exclude such concepts. Look through the Paragon Paths for Martial classes, and you'll find mentions of the word 'spirit' more than once. And are you not aware that there's a Fighter Paragon Path named 'Kensei'?
I'm realizing just how abundantly clear it is that you (STILL!) aren't at all looking for ways in which Ki is distinct, and that this is colouring your perception of it. Since you consistently refuse to try to relate to the opinions of others, I'm forced to wonder if you're even able to do so. Have you considered the possibility that you might not be an imaginative person, Matthias?
Have you considered the possibility that you may be distinguishing between two identical concepts? All I've seen in the suggestions for a Ki power source amount to what is basically an overpowered version of the Martial power source.
Have you considered the possibility that you may be distinguishing between two identical concepts? All I've seen in the suggestions for a Ki power source amount to what is basically an overpowered version of the Martial power source.
And this is not to say that they could not be mechanically balanced. This is, of course, possible. But it would be transparent and contrived. If they follow the design principles encouraged here, Ki-based characters would be performing physical feats far beyond the capabilities of Martial characters, and yet somehow not being more effective.
And this is not to say that they could not be mechanically balanced. This is, of course, possible. But it would be transparent and contrived. If they follow the design principles encouraged here, Ki-based characters would be performing physical feats far beyond the capabilities of Martial characters, and yet somehow not being more effective.
You mean stuff like blasts of energy that hit targets up to 20 squares away for 1d8 damage, uppercuts that deal 2d8 fire damage, and floating/flying under their own power? If so I could make you a nice long list of stuff that would work if you want.
But your examples were of Ki users doing purely physical things that Martial characters couldn't, for some arbitrary reason.
I think the point is that its not purely physical. If a Monk can run straight up a wall, thats not purely physical, because it violates physical laws. If a Monk can walk on water, thats not purely physical because it violates physics. If a Monk can shoot blasts of energy out of his fingertips, thats not purely physical, because, surprise, that violates physics.
In real life, martial artists can get a lot of force from a one-inch punch, but if a D&D Monk can knock someone back 20 feet with a one-inch punch, thats still definitely beyond physical.
Swordmages aren't like Fighters because while they both use weapons, the Swordmage is using weapons and magic, while the Fighter focuses on using the weapons effectively. The difference between a Martial swordsman and a Ki swordsman is what?
The Ki swordsman focuses on using weapons and Ki. Why can a swordmage use swords and magic but a Ki swordsman can only use swords?
Both concepts are rooted in the mastery of the body, discipline, and skill with weapons, but for some reason the Ki swordsman is allowed feats of speed, power, and precision that the Martial character isn't. Why? How does that make sense?
Nope, they're not. Martial is rooted in mastery of Martial Prowess. Ki is rooted in mastery of, get this, Ki.
Training methods don't matter at all. Who cares if the Paladin, Fighter, Swordmage, Warden, and Monk all go to the same gym?
About 90% of all the feats that are justified by some character using 'ki' are accomplished in another story by some other character using pure physical ability, determination, and badassery.
I disagree. Pure physical ability, determination, and badassery can't let you: fly for short bursts, shoot energy balls from your hands, walk on water, run up walls, punch someone and have them die two days later from it, punch someone and cure them of illness, send someone flying with a flick of your finger, cut the air and send a shockwave of energy out that cuts someone in half 10 feet away, stomp your feet and cause a localized earthquake that blows your enemies away, punch a mountain and split it, balance on a blade of grass, run up the length of a spear and kick someone's head off, shoot an arrow that decapitates two people (not by severing their necks, but by actually ripping them off), killing someone by shouting, setting yourself ablaze with burning energy of some kind...
Honestly, I think you've got that backwards. I'd say only about 10% of what is attributed to Ki is purely physical ability.
Why does a Monk need to be some incredibly spiritually focused character, when so many martial artists in fiction, so many monks in both fiction and history, focused exclusively on training the body and really didn't care about the spiritual?
First of all, I don't think there are that many monks in both fiction and history like that. I think that the vast majority don't relate their success to physical prowess, but rather to their inner focus and spirituality. I can only really think of the Gracies, and maybe Bruce Lee (but I'm not too sure of that...he was a philosopher and claimed his martial arts were just a metaphor and weird things like that).
I would love to find a decent compromise. I very much want all of these concepts to be part of D&D. But I also want the end result to be a good one. I feel that making Ki its own power source is too conceptually limiting. I read the PHB blurb, just like everybody - Ki will be its own power source. But I don't see how it can be its own distinct entity, because it never has been in any form of fiction.
It has been distinct in tons of fiction. Its just never been distinct and equal. Thats very different. Almost any fiction about Ki powered fighters also has non-ki powered fighters, its just that they suck, because the series focuses on the ki.
The real challenge for D&D is not to make Ki separate, but to make Ki equal, and I think they've proven so far that they are very capable of that.
And this is not to say that they could not be mechanically balanced. This is, of course, possible. But it would be transparent and contrived. If they follow the design principles encouraged here, Ki-based characters would be performing physical feats far beyond the capabilities of Martial characters, and yet somehow not being more effective.
This is the same kind of argument people make when they talk about the Saga edition of Star Wars. "Jedi aren't better than everyone at everything! Thats not right! They should win at everything forever! Nobody should want to play Han Solo! Better lucky than good, sure, but better force sensitive than anything!"
fun > game balance > everything else.
And this is not to say that they could not be mechanically balanced. This is, of course, possible. But it would be transparent and contrived. If they follow the design principles encouraged here, Ki-based characters would be performing physical feats far beyond the capabilities of Martial characters, and yet somehow not being more effective.
The Fighter fights with a sword. The Swordmage fights with a sword. The Swordmage's sword burns with arcane fire, crackles with lightning, and freezes enemies to their bones, as the swordmage wishes. He teleports. He shields himself from harm with arcane magic. By your logic he's an overpowered Fighter. And yet its totally possible to balance him with the Fighter without creating a transparently contrived situation. All you have to do is have the Fighter learn something else, something exclusive to being a Fighter, while the Swordmage is busy learning the secrets of arcane magic.
The worst part about your argument is that it disproves the existence of the 3e monk, and yet, the 3e monk exists. And is underpowered, as an ironic extra.
You mean stuff like blasts of energy that hit targets up to 20 squares away for 1d8 damage, uppercuts that deal 2d8 fire damage, and floating/flying under their own power? If so I could make you a nice long list of stuff that would work if you want.
These illustrate the problem of trying to make a Ki power source distinct. The energy blast, for example. Ki-based classes will need Ki-based powers from level 1 on. Think of the genres that people want to duplicate with the Ki power source. How often do these works of fiction have novice characters firing off ki blasts, executing flaming punches and the like one right after the other? None that I know of. Most series I know of would find this sort of thing represented by a high-level Daily power. Encounter at best, and no sooner than the paragon tier. So, what would the at-wills look like? And the low-level powers? I look at the genre, and I find... purely physical attacks, with nothing to distinguish between a Ki class and a Martial one.
Okay, trying to make this simpler, so maybe you'll actually follow.
Ever play any White Wolf games? How about Mage: The Ascension? Ever wonder why the Akashic Brotherhood's favored sphere was Mind? Where the idea for the Mind rotes with the funny foreign names came from?
The ideas that you call Psionics and not Ki were associated with ki many, many years before Eastern mysticism became fashionable in the West.
Akashic Brotherhood = Taoists/Martial Artists, NOT yogis or Gurus of the Hindu faith.
Euthantos and Cult of Ecatsy were the main yogi producers, though Celestial chorus could wind up with some of the more traditional elements of hinduism (Aka those not commonly known in the west).
However, Akashic Brotherhood didn't use mind sphere for telepathy (though they could) And Mind doesn't include Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Cyrokinesis, or Pyschometabolic stuff. All of which IS psionics.
The closest you get to 'psi' as commonly refered in eastern mysticism on any level is clairvoyance and mind control. Neither of which is exclusive to Eastern Mysticism. OR to Psionics.
Have you considered the possibility that you may be distinguishing between two identical concepts? All I've seen in the suggestions for a Ki power source amount to what is basically an overpowered version of the Martial power source.
That doesn't change the fact that we are getting a "Ki" power source, as far as anyone knows. The part that everyone -- especially MatthiasKaiser -- seems to be ignoring is that we have next to zilch as far as information about the Ki power source in 4E. We know that the Monk is upcoming, and that it is supposed to be a Ki class, but what this means for the rest of the power source is completely speculative at this point.
How can one argue that the theme of Ki is redundant, when nobody even knows what the overall theme of Ki will be? (It could easily be something that nobody here is even considering, especially given that real-world accuracy isn't a goal of D&D.)
The Fighter fights with a sword. The Swordmage fights with a sword. The Swordmage's sword burns with arcane fire, crackles with lightning, and freezes enemies to their bones, as the swordmage wishes. He teleports. He shields himself from harm with arcane magic. By your logic he's an overpowered Fighter. And yet its totally possible to balance him with the Fighter without creating a transparently contrived situation. All you have to do is have the Fighter learn something else, something exclusive to being a Fighter, while the Swordmage is busy learning the secrets of arcane magic.
The worst part about your argument is that it disproves the existence of the 3e monk, and yet, the 3e monk exists. And is underpowered, as an ironic extra.
The difference is, the arcane magic is different from the physical fighting stuff, so while the Swordmage is studying the arcane and how to integrate it, the melee ability of the Fighter pulls ahead. I don't see how ki can work like that, because the entire point of developing ki is to perform better physically. The Swordmage isn't the match of the Fighter in terms of skill of physical ability, so he makes up the difference with magic. That's fine. But the genres you're wanting to emulate has ki as the same thing as pure physical ability, only more powerful and with more options.
The 3E Monk never stated that the nature of its training was inherently different from other melee classes, either. Not to mention that it was a pure design failure. Is that what you want in 4E, too?
Akashic Brotherhood = Taoists/Martial Artists, NOT yogis or Gurus of the Hindu faith.
Euthantos and Cult of Ecatsy were the main yogi producers, though Celestial chorus could wind up with some of the more traditional elements of hinduism (Aka those not commonly known in the west).
However, Akashic Brotherhood didn't use mind sphere for telepathy (though they could) And Mind doesn't include Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Cyrokinesis, or Pyschometabolic stuff. All of which IS psionics.
The closest you get to 'psi' as commonly refered in eastern mysticism on any level is clairvoyance and mind control. Neither of which is exclusive to Eastern Mysticism. OR to Psionics.
Pick up a sourcebook before you make these claims about what they did and didn't do. They did, in fact. And the Mind sphere is their main sphere because they rationalize everything else as an effect of the mind, effectively turning their Forces rotes into telekinesis and pyrokinesis, and Life rotes into psychometabolic stuff, etc. And the kicker? They have pre-existing names in the book for these effects. They weren't made up, just researched.
That doesn't change the fact that we are getting a "Ki" power source, as far as anyone knows. The part that everyone -- especially MatthiasKaiser -- seems to be ignoring is that we have next to zilch as far as information about the Ki power source in 4E. We know that the Monk is upcoming, and that it is supposed to be a Ki class, but what this means for the rest of the power source is completely speculative at this point.
How can one argue that the theme of Ki is redundant, when nobody even knows what the overall theme of Ki will be? (It could easily be something that nobody here is even considering, especially given that real-world accuracy isn't a goal of D&D.)
Because, I don't know, they chose to use the word 'Ki', and unless they plan on ignoring the definition of the word, we can infer some things. And if they do plan on ignoring the definition of the word, they probably would've chosen another word to start with.
I just hope they don't have Asiatic names as the main classes, or names more like Avatar that isn't instantly associated with B movies.
Because, I don't know, they chose to use the word 'Ki', and unless they plan on ignoring the definition of the word, we can infer some things. And if they do plan on ignoring the definition of the word, they probably would've chosen another word to start with.
The D&D definition of "ki" doesn't have to be even close to the real-world definition, as long as it retains some superficially-similar kernel of meaning. One possible D&D definition of "ki" could be "soul magic", which is good enough for many people, if the response on these boards is any indication.
And if they do expand Ki to include the western equilivents (Vitalism, Humours, et cetra) then there is Plenty of room for classes. Hell if they even just expand Ki to what it is in reality in the EAST there is room for classes.
I just hope they don't have Asiatic names as the main classes, or names more like Avatar that isn't instantly associated with B movies.
+1.
The D&D definition of "ki" doesn't have to be even close to the real-world definition, as long as it retains some superficially-similar kernel of meaning. One possible D&D definition of "ki" could be "soul magic", which is good enough for many people, if the response on these boards is any indication.
Then they really should've chosen a different word, and made the Monk Martial.
Then they really should've chosen a different word, and made the Monk Martial.
That's just your opinion. Personally, I don't see a problem with it.
The difference is, the arcane magic is different from the physical fighting stuff, so while the Swordmage is studying the arcane and how to integrate it, the melee ability of the Fighter pulls ahead. I don't see how ki can work like that, because the entire point of developing ki is to perform better physically. The Swordmage isn't the match of the Fighter in terms of skill of physical ability, so he makes up the difference with magic. That's fine. But the genres you're wanting to emulate has ki as the same thing as pure physical ability, only more powerful and with more options.
Pure physical ability... and mastery of Ki. While the ki user was mastering his ki, the fighter was training his own style of fighting.
Designing a ki using class that obtains benefits from its mastery of ki and yet balances with martial characters is going to be the easiest thing in the world. Just give an unarmed, unarmored guy the ability to compete on an equal playing field with a guy in scale armor with an ax, and ki has already done the monk a world of good.
The 3E Monk never stated that the nature of its training was inherently different from other melee classes, either.
And yet somewhere the Monk gains the ability to count his fists as magic weapons, the ability to turn ethereal, the ability to teleport, and an innate resistance to undesired magic. This is amateur night stuff. Try again.
That's just your opinion. Personally, I don't see a problem with it.
Could there ever be a less useful comment in a speculative thread in a game forum than "that's just your opinion"?
You don't see a problem with spontaneously deciding to change definitions? That's weird. I presume you'd object if you went into a restaurant and ordered a soda, and they threw sulfuric acid in your face. They did give it to you, after all, and the soda you ordered in the first place is mildly acidic, so there's some superficial similarity between ordering a drink and requesting to be chemically maimed. I, personally, think that this is insufficient, and think that words and phrases should mean what they mean. People making up strange alternative definitions that are only marginally similar to the actual definitions just doesn't work out to well.
So as I was thinking more about soulknife characters, I remembered one of the "minor" story elements from YuYu Hakusho, Pu! From there my brain did a giant number of jumps around in order to connect a bunch of unrelated things in various medias together into a single class idea! So what was the final result? Why it was....
Persona User!(Okay that wouldn't be the actual class name, but it is the best temp name I could come up with given the media I was referencing.)
So what is the idea behind the persona user? In several sources, there is present an idea of another creature or being who is born of your soul. The exact method of borth is different in each one, but as somewhat of a general rule they are some kind of a representation of your inner self. The specific sources that I'm thinking of are as follows:
-YuYu Hakusho: Pu who is a spirit beast born of Yusuke's action during the series. He really doesn't do too much as far as I recall, but the point is that he is there.
-Persona 3 & 4: Personas in these two games Personas are essentially tamed shadows, which are the hidden desires or self of the person that they originate from.
-Bleach: The soul reaper's zanpakutō come from their soul in a sense. While they may initially appear to just be swords, every single one of them possess a "true form". While the exact nature of the zanpakutō's true forms haven't ben detailed too much, they do appear to come from or reside in the soul reaper's mind or soul.
(Wow I did a horrible job of explaining those.....if you are really interested in better understanding these ideas, just go to the original sources as I apparently stink at summarizing.)
So then my idea for this class would be something similair to either the beastmaster ranger or shaman in that it would be a companion based character. This character's companion however would be a represenation of the character's inner self, the exact appearance of each one being unique to the character. I think it would be an interesting idea at least. It might work better as an alternate build for a soulknife(assuming the soulknife becomes a ki class) though I suppose. *shrugs*
Pure physical ability... and mastery of Ki. While the ki user was mastering his ki, the fighter was training his own style of fighting.
Designing a ki using class that obtains benefits from its mastery of ki and yet balances with martial characters is going to be the easiest thing in the world. Just give an unarmed, unarmored guy the ability to compete on an equal playing field with a guy in scale armor with an ax, and ki has already done the monk a world of good.
But how is it inherently different from what a Rogue or Ranger does? Lighter armor and weapons trumping heavier armor and weapons. Even less armor and being unarmed is more of the same, not something else altogether.
And yet somewhere the Monk gains the ability to count his fists as magic weapons, the ability to turn ethereal, the ability to teleport, and an innate resistance to undesired magic. This is amateur night stuff. Try again.
Most of this happens after level 10. Paragon tier, where the rules of what can normally be accomplished are tossed out the window anyway.
If you argue that two power sources should be merged together because they share some root origin somewhere in history, then you must argue that the entire concept of Power Sources must be scrapped in order to keep your own arguments consistent. I mean, the Jewish Kabballah is the root of all western "Arcane Magic", and the distinction between "Primal" and "Divine" is weaker and goes even further back.
While I agree with the point you are making, I must disagree with your statement Jewish Kabbalism is the root of western "arcane" magic.
While I cannot deny that Kabbalism has had a direct impact on modern arcane practices and beliefs (due largely in part in how they have influenced the evolution of the Arthurian Legends), western "arcane" magic has its roots not in Jewish Kabbalism, but in Celtic/gaulish paganism - specifically, ancient druidism and wicca - all of which have their roots in european neolithic traditions.
In fact, when asked to conjure a mental image of the archetypal wizard, we in the west cannot help but conjure an image right out of the Arthurian Legends; namely - the image of Merlin the Magician, a self-proclaimed DRUID!
I must also point out that from an anthropological standpoint, Jewish Kabbalism was influenced heavily by Ancient Egyptian Sorcery, if in fact its roots did not begin there.
My point?
By tracing the historical inspiration behind the classes and/or power sources, we eventually reach a point where two (or more) archetypes become one and the same, and we must ask ourselves at which point does a historical argument break down.
In fact, whether we admit it or not, I have just made a historical argument as to why there is no reason for the Wizard and Druid to co-exist, as both archetypes are simply modern interpretations of someone who practiced ancient druidism, to which different (supernatural) abilities were the attributed.
In fact, the only argument as to why both classes should be allowed to co-exist, is due to the fact that the modern Wizard traces its lineage directly to Merlin and the Arthurian Legends, while the modern Druid is inspired directly from historical records.
Due to the fact that the Arthurian Legends have been filtered through a Jeudeo-Christian lens for centuries, it is understandable that parallels between Jewish Kabbalism and ancient Druidic practices were made, and Merlin the Wizard evolved as someone who practiced an amalgam of the two.
Over centuries of cross-interpretation between the two, the image of Merlin (and by extension, the modern Wizard) evolved as someone barely recognisable as having anything to do with druidism, and as a result - the two archetypes evolved as distinct and separate entities, both worthy of representation in a fantasy game.
The same logic applies to historical arguments relating to the "Ki" power source.
At some point, we must draw a line in the sand and say that our inspiration comes from X, Y, and Z specifically - and all other sources (no matter how accurate) be damned.
Based off the scant information available, it appears that the Developer`s made the logic jump that Ki = Soul, therefore anything relating to the Soul can potentially be a part of the Ki Power source including (but not limited to): Anime Ki-blasts, Incarnum, Synchronocity, Chakras, Reincarnation, Bi-Location, wuxia, etc.
These illustrate the problem of trying to make a Ki power source distinct. The energy blast, for example. Ki-based classes will need Ki-based powers from level 1 on. Think of the genres that people want to duplicate with the Ki power source. How often do these works of fiction have novice characters firing off ki blasts, executing flaming punches and the like one right after the other? None that I know of.
I guess if you are focusing on Anime, Manga and Manhwa you would miss all of one in video games. Take Sakura Kasugano from Street Fighter as an example, she is pretty much a talented novice who managed to mimic Ryu's moves.
Most series I know of would find this sort of thing represented by a high-level Daily power. Encounter at best, and no sooner than the paragon tier. So, what would the at-wills look like? And the low-level powers? I look at the genre, and I find... purely physical attacks, with nothing to distinguish between a Ki class and a Martial one.
I think you need to change how you look at things. First consider Street Fighter as an example of what Heroic Tier Ki characters look like. Now here is how I would break up the move lists of Ryu and Ken:
Basic Moves: (Moves that are just a button press)
*Strong Punch/Kick - Basic Attacks
*Weak Punch/Kick - Basic Attacks, possibly part of a Monk special ability Flurry of Blows
Special Moves: (Command input moves)
*Haduken (Fireball) - At Will
*Shoryuken (Rising Dragon Uppercut) - At Will
*Tatsumaki Senpuu-Kyaku (Hurricane Kick) - At Will
Ex Moves (Command input moves that consume part of a super bar)
*Ex-Haduken - Encounter
*Ex-Shoryuken - Encounter
*Ex-Tatsumaki Senpuu-Kyaku - Encounter
Super/Ultra Moves (Command input moves that consume all or multiple super bars)
*Shinkuu Hadoken -Daily
*Metsu Hadoken - Daily
*Shoryureppa - Daily
*Shinryuken - Daily
I guess if you are focusing on Anime, Manga and Manhwa you would miss all of one in video games. Take Sakura Kasugano from Street Fighter as an example, she is pretty much a talented novice who managed to mimic Ryu's moves.
No matter how young you are, if you're among the top 50 martial artists in the world in a high-powered martial arts setting, you're not considered a novice.
I think you need to change how you look at things. First consider Street Fighter as an example of what Heroic Tier Ki characters look like. Now here is how I would break up the move lists of Ryu and Ken:
Basic Moves: (Moves that are just a button press)
*Strong Punch/Kick - Basic Attacks
*Weak Punch/Kick - Basic Attacks, possibly part of a Monk special ability Flurry of Blows
Special Moves: (Command input moves)
*Haduken (Fireball) - At Will
*Shoryuken (Rising Dragon Uppercut) - At Will
*Tatsumaki Senpuu-Kyaku (Hurricane Kick) - At Will
Ex Moves (Command input moves that consume part of a super bar)
*Ex-Haduken - Encounter
*Ex-Shoryuken - Encounter
*Ex-Tatsumaki Senpuu-Kyaku - Encounter
Super/Ultra Moves (Command input moves that consume all or multiple super bars)
*Shinkuu Hadoken -Daily
*Metsu Hadoken - Daily
*Shoryureppa - Daily
*Shinryuken - Daily
If Street Fighter is equivalent to Heroic teir, then mid-series Dragon Ball Z is Paragon teir. Holy crap, those guys are powerful.
No matter how young you are, if you're among the top 50 martial artists in the world in a high-powered martial arts setting, you're not considered a novice.
She's not one of the world's top 50 martial artists canonically. She is pretty much the equivalent of a level 1 PC with Ryu and Ken being level 8 or 9 and M.Bison and Akuma being the only ones who really break into low paragon.
If Street Fighter is equivalent to Heroic teir, then mid-series Dragon Ball Z is Paragon teir. Holy crap, those guys are powerful.
Dragon Ball would be Heroic, Z up to the end of Cell saga would be Paragon and the Buu saga and GT would be Epic. And if you think of the various planets as towns, Freeza blowing up a planet isn't so out of hand in paragon.
She's not one of the world's top 50 martial artists canonically. She is pretty much the equivalent of a level 1 PC with Ryu and Ken being level 8 or 9 and M.Bison and Akuma being the only ones who really break into low paragon.
Dragon Ball would be Heroic, Z up to the end of Cell saga would be Paragon and the Buu saga and GT would be Epic. And if you think of the various planets as towns, Freeza blowing up a planet isn't so out of hand in paragon.
HOLY ****. Wow. Err.
No. D&D characters are not that freaking powerful, especially at those levels.
Dragonball (Kid Goku - World Martial Arts Tournament) is a good parallel of what Heroic Tier characters can perform.
This is especially true, in light of the fact that in 4th Edition, 1st level characters are the dnd-equivalent of movie/rock stars just after making their big break (eg. Mel Gibson at the time of Mad Max 1), or anyone who has attained a purple heart (or other such distinction).
Dragonball Z (Saiyan Saga/Frieza Saga) is a good parallel of what Paragon Tier characters can perform, even so far as to involve planar (interplanetary) travel - with Frieza (final form) and Goku both being 26th level Epic characters in their final confrontation.
A real-world analogue to this would be most world-renown movie/rock stars, and decorrated generals of the worlds military.
Dragonball Z (Android Saga/Buu Saga) is the perfect example of a world-spanning epic campaign where the survival of the world (the universe in this case) rests solely on the characters shoulders.
A real-world analogy to this level of play would include historic legends such as Joan of Arc, Moses, Robert the Bruce, Confucious, and Suddhata Gutema (someone who is a dead-ringer for the Demigod ED), while Hitler is a good example of a RW Epic-threat.
Back to DBZ however, I am of the opinion that Majin Buu (2nd form) is every bit the DBZ equivalent (in terms of both power and goals) of "Orcus", "Tharizdun" or one of the Elder Primordial Evils.
I also believe that at some point during the Buu saga, the series breaks through the 30th level barrier, and becomes an example of what such a god-level campaign might look like.
This most likely occurs at/around the time that the characters trained in the Hyperbarric Time Chamber, and accounts for abilities such as Fusion and the SSJ3 transformation, as being 31st level "Destiny" powers.
By extension, Majin Buu (Piccolo & Gotenks) are 38th-40th level threats, while Kid Buu makes a good case for what a 45th level threat might look like.
The Dragonball GT saga, continues beyond this point, with SSJ4 being a good example of what a 36th level Utility might look like.
This scene however does go beyond the parameters of what is martial and into other power sources.
Could there ever be a less useful comment in a speculative thread in a game forum than "that's just your opinion"?
Could there be a less useful contribution to a speculative thread than repeatedly asking for proof of concept for a speculation, and then rejecting it all? My point stands: it is just your opinion that there shouldn't be a power source called "ki", and that the Monk class should be Martial. We may not have convinced you otherwise, but you don't seem to have convinced anyone else, either.
FWIW, I would appreciate it if you'd stop being so rude.
You don't see a problem with spontaneously deciding to change definitions? That's weird. I presume you'd object if you went into a restaurant and ordered a soda, and they threw sulfuric acid in your face. They did give it to you, after all, and the soda you ordered in the first place is mildly acidic, so there's some superficial similarity between ordering a drink and requesting to be chemically maimed. I, personally, think that this is insufficient, and think that words and phrases should mean what they mean. People making up strange alternative definitions that are only marginally similar to the actual definitions just doesn't work out to well.
This is a straw man.
Your example is incorrect because soda has a specific referent; you could ask most people what a soda is, and they would be able to both tell you and distinguish soda from sulfuric acid. In contrast, "ki" has no real-world referent; if you ask a hundred folks what "ki" is, you will likely get as many different explanations of it, and many of those people wouldn't agree with one another. (The reason for this is that "ki" doesn't exist in RL in any verifiable way.) Because "ki" has no real-world referent, there's absolutely no harm creating a specific definition of "ki" for a fantasy world, a definition which may or may not match peoples' own subjective definitions of "ki". There's no harm in redefining "ki" for a fantasy world, because nobody can agree on a specific definition anyway.
If this debate has shown us anything, it should be that our interpretations of "ki" are highly subjective. As with anything so subjective, nobody's opinion is any more valid than anyone else's, not even yours.
That doesn't change the fact that we are getting a "Ki" power source, as far as anyone knows.
Their minds can always change. They changed their minds about the Sorcerer being a controller. One can always hope.
The part that everyone -- especially MatthiasKaiser -- seems to be ignoring is that we have next to zilch as far as information about the Ki power source in 4E. We know that the Monk is upcoming, and that it is supposed to be a Ki class, but what this means for the rest of the power source is completely speculative at this point.
How can one argue that the theme of Ki is redundant, when nobody even knows what the overall theme of Ki will be?
One can argue that nothing they come up with for Ki will be anything new. Blasts of energy are Arcane territory and superhuman maneuvers are Martial. And no, "more superhuman than Martial" doesn't make it not-Martial; it makes it an overpowered (i.e. ubiquitously banned) version of Martial. They could try to staple Incarnum to it, but I honestly don't think that would turn out so well, what with Incarnum not only having nothing to do with the concept of Ki (and all versions thereof; Ki uses your own soul and body, Incarnum uses soul-waste from everybody else), but also being all about shaping free magic items and gluing them to parts of your soul.
While I agree with the point you are making, I must disagree with your statement Jewish Kabbalism is the root of western "arcane" magic.
While I cannot deny that Kabbalism has had a direct impact on modern arcane practices and beliefs (due largely in part in how they have influenced the evolution of the Arthurian Legends), western "arcane" magic has its roots not in Jewish Kabbalism, but in Celtic/gaulish paganism - specifically, ancient druidism and wicca - all of which have their roots in european neolithic traditions.
You obviously misunderstood the extent of what I was referring to, and you also seem to have a fairly limited idea of what "western magic" means. I was more specifically referring to the countless magical traditions that existed in Europe that have nothing to do with celtic paganism. Look up the "Lesser Key of Solomon", Hermeticism and the Hermetic Orders, alchemy, and various other forms of magic practiced by various Christian sects and learned scholars from antiquity through the 17th and 18th centuries (including famous individuals such as John Dee and Isaac Newton). Wicca is almost entirely irrelevant to this line of magical heritage.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand.
I am not sure how much I even really want to address MatthiasKaiser's points anymore, since he still isn't really trying to understand what we mean, but I can at least counter one of his arguments.
There are countless places in the world where asking for "soda" will get you something other than a sweet, fizzy beverage. "Soda" gets its name from sodium, and is used as a quick term to refer to Sodium carbonate, Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), Sodium hydroxide (caustic soda, AKA drain cleaner, AKA something just as dangerous as sulfuric acid), or just soda water (un-sweetened carbonated water, as in the place called Soda Springs). Not to mention that using the word "soda" won't get you a soft drink in many places, simply because it is called "pop" or "cola" or whatever in various parts of the US, let alone the world.
There is no such thing as a one true definition. Language is infinitely malleable and flexible, and words are meaningless outside of context and specific intent. There is nothing wrong in the slightest with someone creating a unique and specific definition for a commonly used word with multiple definitions, especially if that specific use of the word is explicitly called out as such and is still clearly connected to common definitions of the word. This entire line of argumentation is a farce.
You obviously misunderstood the extent of what I was referring to, and you also seem to have a fairly limited idea of what "western magic" means. I was more specifically referring to the countless magical traditions that existed in Europe that have nothing to do with celtic paganism. Look up the "Lesser Key of Solomon", Hermeticism and the Hermetic Orders, alchemy, and various other forms of magic practiced by various Christian sects and learned scholars from antiquity through the 17th and 18th centuries (including famous individuals such as John Dee and Isaac Newton). Wicca is almost entirely irrelevant to this line of magical heritage.
I am well aware of those traditions although my knowledge of their practices is limited (save alchemy in which I am well versed), however they are not the imagery that is conjured by a layperson when asked to define magic - the image of Merlin (and his ilk) is.
This is especially true given the fact that anyone who knows the existance of such traditions save alchemy has more than a passing interest in the occult and/or mystical traditions in general.....
Even I, who is well versed in occult traditions, mysticism, and mythological practices in general did not even consider the hermetic traditions when conjuring an image of western "arcane" magic, so pervasive has Arthurian-derived imagery supplanted such traditions in our conscious mind.
As such, the hermetic or Solomanic traditions are poor examples of Western "Arcane" magic, as only those of a scholarly bent would even know of which we are speaking.
Not to mention that using the word "soda" won't get you a soft drink in many places, simply because it is called "pop" or "cola" or whatever in various parts of the US, let alone the world.
As an Autralian-born (and raised) individual, I can contest to this fact.
Were you to ask for a "soda" in Australia, you would most likely get a funny look, as what the Americans/Canadians call "soda" or "soda pop" we simply refer to as soft drink, if not by its individual name (eg. Coke; pepsi; fanta; etc).
"Soda" in Australia, refers specifically to soda-water (more commonly referred to as Tonic Water), or as a short-form of Bicarbonate Soda.
Few australians will make the connection to soft-drink without having to think about it for several minutes, as the only time we hear the words "soda" and "pop" in reference to softdrink is in the (american) movies and television to which we are exposed.
A better example however would be if you asked for a Jelly Sandwich....
In Australia, what you call Jello, we call Jelly, and what you call Jelly, we call Jam.
As such, were you to ask for a "Jelly Sandwich" in Australia, you would get strange looks indeed, if someone didnt just hand you a sandwich with jelly (jello) crystals in it.
This is especially true when you consider the fact that Australians are known for putting nearly anything between two slices of bread (Fries, potato chips/crisps, etc), and the fact that most aussies have eaten raw jelly (jello) crystals at least once in their lives.
In fact, until such times as I came to Canada, I was under the impression that Americans/Canadians considered peanut butter and Jelly (jello) sandwiches a delicacy, not that I could fathom for the life of me who would ever consider putting both on the same sandwich lol.
................How?
I mean, I get the idea, the separation of western and eastern film, the divide between heroic figures, etc. What I don't see is how one will create a different class, both conceptually and mechanically, than another.
How will the Ki-based-Samurai actually be different the Fighter, yet not infringing upon the Swordsage's "sword magic" turf? What does the Ki-using-Ninja bring to the table that the Rogue's Dazzling Acrobatics, Hide in Plain Sight, and arsenal of condition attacks remain unable to match? What is the difference between the Ki monk and a martial artist who uses grapples, throws, and up close conditions?
If Ki can't evolve past "mystical martial", then it will always be the Red Headed Stepchild as we've seen in the Ki = Asian past, or will leave Martial out in the cold compared to its "Like Martial, but More Awesome" little sister.
I almost feel bad dragging out a post from a few pages back, but I wanted to respond to this.
The difference between a Martial class built around using unarmed strikes, grapples, and throws and a Ki class built around using unarmed strikes, grapples, and throws is fairly clear to me. Let me get into a few specifics...
Unarmed Strikes: I have no problem with a martial class that is skilled with unarmed strikes. I imagine that such a class would use pure Strength attacks against AC to reflect punches made with raw power and technique, and it would probably be augmented with weapons of the unarmed group, like spiked gauntlets, brass knuckles, or the classic "claw" weapons you see in Final Fantasy games. Meanwhile, a Ki class is more likely to make Wisdom or even Charisma based attacks against Reflex or Fortitude, and these attacks are likely to inflict additional conditions such as blinded, deafened, or dazed rather than deal large amounts of damage. They are also less likely to use weapons of the unarmed group. Overall, it is a difference between the powerful punch based in raw power and the mystical touch that can injure without needing to deal a lot of physical damage.
Grapples and Throws: Martial grapple attacks and throws would look a lot like this. These could be devastatingly powerful and physically injuring, and would likely knock the enemy prone and possibly inflict other damage, but they would not move the enemy very far. Meanwhile, Ki based throws would more closely resemble the kinds of wild throws you see in the Tome of Battle's Setting Sun discipline that send foes flying through the air before crashing to the ground 30 feet away, or the Ballista Throw that lets you throw an enemy like a projectile weapon as a Line attack through other enemies. The Martial throw is ultimately Defender-role in style, while the Ki throw is the technique of a Controller.
Other moves: The Martial unarmed combat specialist would be primarily limited to direct melee attacks, stances, and the occasional fun utility power, but a Ki unarmed combat specialist would also have a range of moves outside of direct attacks. For example, the Ki unarmed combat user could launch a variety of ranged ki-based attacks (ranging from a ranged punch like the Air Palm technique in Naruto to massive energy blasts that smash the landscape like you see in Dragonball). The Ki-user could also theoretically create an "after-image" after moving, so that enemies are tricked into attacking the place where he just was. A more aggressive variant on that is the ability to create a semi-solid "shadow" that follows the movements of the ki-user, adding follow-up damage to each of his attacks or even attacking independently.
If you want to imagine the difference between a Fighter or Ranger, the Swordmage, and a theoretical Ki swordmaster, the arguments are pretty similar. A Ki-user swordmaster would do things in a far more magical style than the Fighter or Ranger, but would be far more weapon-oriented than the Swordmage. At the very least, even if it were just as flashy as the Swordmage, a Ki-user could easily be constructed as being very different. After all, unless the Swordmage has iaijutsu attacks, air slashes, and an effect like the Yamato Dimension Slash techniques from the Devil May Cry videogames, then it doesn't possess the moves I think a Ki swordmaster should have.
I almost feel bad dragging out a post from a few pages back, but I wanted to respond to this.
The difference between a Martial class built around using unarmed strikes, grapples, and throws and a Ki class built around using unarmed strikes, grapples, and throws is fairly clear to me. Let me get into a few specifics...
Unarmed Strikes: I have no problem with a martial class that is skilled with unarmed strikes. I imagine that such a class would use pure Strength attacks against AC to reflect punches made with raw power and technique, and it would probably be augmented with weapons of the unarmed group, like spiked gauntlets, brass knuckles, or the classic "claw" weapons you see in Final Fantasy games. Meanwhile, a Ki class is more likely to make Wisdom or even Charisma based attacks against Reflex or Fortitude, and these attacks are likely to inflict additional conditions such as blinded, deafened, or dazed rather than deal large amounts of damage. They are also less likely to use weapons of the unarmed group. Overall, it is a difference between the powerful punch based in raw power and the mystical touch that can injure without needing to deal a lot of physical damage.
Grapples and Throws: Martial grapple attacks and throws would look a lot like this. These could be devastatingly powerful and physically injuring, and would likely knock the enemy prone and possibly inflict other damage, but they would not move the enemy very far. Meanwhile, Ki based throws would more closely resemble the kinds of wild throws you see in the Tome of Battle's Setting Sun discipline that send foes flying through the air before crashing to the ground 30 feet away, or the Ballista Throw that lets you throw an enemy like a projectile weapon as a Line attack through other enemies. The Martial throw is ultimately Defender-role in style, while the Ki throw is the technique of a Controller.
Other moves: The Martial unarmed combat specialist would be primarily limited to direct melee attacks, stances, and the occasional fun utility power, but a Ki unarmed combat specialist would also have a range of moves outside of direct attacks. For example, the Ki unarmed combat user could launch a variety of ranged ki-based attacks (ranging from a ranged punch like the Air Palm technique in Naruto to massive energy blasts that smash the landscape like you see in Dragonball). The Ki-user could also theoretically create an "after-image" after moving, so that enemies are tricked into attacking the place where he just was. A more aggressive variant on that is the ability to create a semi-solid "shadow" that follows the movements of the ki-user, adding follow-up damage to each of his attacks or even attacking independently.
If you want to imagine the difference between a Fighter or Ranger, the Swordmage, and a theoretical Ki swordmaster, the arguments are pretty similar. A Ki-user swordmaster would do things in a far more magical style than the Fighter or Ranger, but would be far more weapon-oriented than the Swordmage. At the very least, even if it were just as flashy as the Swordmage, a Ki-user could easily be constructed as being very different. After all, unless the Swordmage has iaijutsu attacks, air slashes, and an effect like the Yamato Dimension Slash techniques from the Devil May Cry videogames, then it doesn't possess the moves I think a Ki swordmaster should have.
On might look up television tropes' anime section for powers linked to Ki, like the uselessness of Armor, or sword slash which cuts off all clothes. But Naruto's Gentle Fist was mention. While the kicks, chops and punches are martial in action... it is the Chakra/Ki attack with shuts down the body systems from the inside out. So the attack isn't the ki aspect but the daze or weakening state which follows.
Their minds can always change. They changed their minds about the Sorcerer being a controller. One can always hope.
You're absolutely right; it could still change. We'll certainly have a much better idea about it by May, when the Monk playtest appears.
One can argue that nothing they come up with for Ki will be anything new. Blasts of energy are Arcane territory and superhuman maneuvers are Martial. And no, "more superhuman than Martial" doesn't make it not-Martial; it makes it an overpowered (i.e. ubiquitously banned) version of Martial. They could try to staple Incarnum to it, but I honestly don't think that would turn out so well, what with Incarnum not only having nothing to do with the concept of Ki (and all versions thereof; Ki uses your own soul and body, Incarnum uses soul-waste from everybody else), but also being all about shaping free magic items and gluing them to parts of your soul.
This is a fair assessment, too. Personally, I'm inclined to disagree that "nothing they come up with" can be original, because I don't like to think of limited possibilities. Perhaps I'm just more optimistic about WotC's ability to create something cool for Ki.
FWIW, I appreciate that you're more civil than your friend Matthias.
Perhaps I'm just more optimistic about WotC's ability to create something cool for Ki.
It is easy to make cool ideas for ki!:D I did it last page......just no one paid any attention to it.
It is easy to make cool ideas for ki!:D I did it last page......just no one paid any attention to it.
R, you know as well as I do that the secret reason we come here is to argue, not to debate constructively. :P (Just ask MatthiasKaiser.)
Besides, WotC never reads down here anyway. Shame, because I posted a decent Ninja idea a few pages back which no one responded to. You're not alone, bro.
R, you know as well as I do that the secret reason we come here is to argue, not to debate constructively. :P (Just ask MatthiasKaiser.)
Besides, WotC never reads down here anyway. Shame, because I posted a decent Ninja idea a few pages back which no one responded to. You're not alone, bro.
No I come here to correct people on the internet since it is my calling in life and to occasionally throw out an idea so people can worship me for how brilliant I am.:P
And I hate to break it to you, but your ninja idea wasn't that original. I posted something similair to it a while ago.:P
No I come here to correct people on the internet since it is my calling in life and to occasionally throw out an idea so people can worship me for how brilliant I am.:P
Ahh, so the sticky isn't enough for you... :P
And I hate to break it to you, but your ninja idea wasn't that original. I posted something similair to it a while ago.:P
I said it was a decent idea, not an original one. Obviously, great minds think alike!
'Rogue' is more a description of a personality or behavior pattern than a set of abilities, but the current rules are certainly pretty evocative of an existing definition of the word.
'Ranger' is a word with many somewhat-related definitions, and while I'm not sure what Two-Weapon Fighting is supposed to have to do with anything, the use of the term to describe a skilled mobile fighter is certainly precedented.
'Paladin' might've been a poorly chosen word all along, but it's come to mean 'holy warrior,' and the current usage fits.
'Warden' is a term with a few uses as well, and the upcoming interpretation is a fairly novel one, it does work.
I'm not sure whether I find your ability to completely miss the point amazing or exasperating. I'm not even sure why I bother to respond anymore, but here I am anyway.
My point was entirely meant to illustrate how both the rogue (formerly the thief) and the paladin started out tied to rather narrow stereotypes, but have managed to expand and grow beyond those old preconceived restrictions. My point was that for the uninformed names such as ranger and warden seem odd choices for fantasy heroes because they do not necessarily have much, if any, relation to their usage in common language. My point was that just because some people, such as yourself, have an overly narrow concept of what a ninja or samurai class would be does not mean that those classes can't still cover, or grow to cover, a wider ranger of options and just because samurai and ninja refer to very specific historical archetypes does not meant that a modern fantasy RPG can't reinterpret them.
What? Seriously? Says who? There are hundreds of characters within the genre that Ki is supposed to emulate who train their body and hone their skills and are not at all concerned with their soul. In addition, the Martial power source clearly doesn't exclude such concepts. Look through the Paragon Paths for Martial classes, and you'll find mentions of the word 'spirit' more than once. And are you not aware that there's a Fighter Paragon Path named 'Kensei'?
I'm sorry but any series focusing purely on the character's physical training, with no regards to spiritual discipline, is not KI. It's martial. Martial with Japanese/Chinese influences, but still only martial. Ki training is deeper then mere physical training, even though it sometimes (though not always) uses physical discipline as a gate way to reach that spiritual discipline.
As for the Kensai, it's paragon path. At paragon tier it becomes entirely reasonable for classes to start branching into other territories. Another Paragon class is the Wizard of the Spiral Tower, which mixes sword use with magic. Yet it remains distinctly arcane and is associated with the wizard and not the swordmage.
Think of the genres that people want to duplicate with the Ki power source. How often do these works of fiction have novice characters firing off ki blasts, executing flaming punches and the like one right after the other? None that I know of. Most series I know of would find this sort of thing represented by a high-level Daily power. Encounter at best, and no sooner than the paragon tier.
About to the same degree as works of fiction present the potential for characters to be an effective wizard without being 100+ years old (with mandatory beard down to their ankles. One upon a time a 20 some year old could only hope to be an apprentice capable of brewing the occasional potion and maybe performing a few minor acts of prestidigitation or legerdemain. Even in 3rd edition D&D, low level wizards suffered from a very limited reserve of arcane ability, which once exhausted left them reduced to the role of an ineffective archer. Now in 4E, wizards can hurl bolts of arcane force and miniature fireballs all day long without so much as a breather. If wizards can have such discipline over the arcane at level 1 then I would expect no less from monks.
As an Autralian-born (and raised) individual, I can contest to this fact.
Were you to ask for a "soda" in Australia, you would most likely get a funny look, as what the Americans/Canadians call "soda" or "soda pop" we simply refer to as soft drink, if not by its individual name (eg. Coke; pepsi; fanta; etc).
"Soda" in Australia, refers specifically to soda-water (more commonly referred to as Tonic Water), or as a short-form of Bicarbonate Soda.
Few australians will make the connection to soft-drink without having to think about it for several minutes, as the only time we hear the words "soda" and "pop" in reference to softdrink is in the (american) movies and television to which we are exposed.
I dunno, that sounds pretty similar to the way things are here in Canada. Where I am, we basically never use the word "soda' (except as you described it), although we do use the word "pop" (not "soda pop", just "pop").
A better example however would be if you asked for a Jelly Sandwich....
In Australia, what you call Jello, we call Jelly, and what you call Jelly, we call Jam.
As such, were you to ask for a "Jelly Sandwich" in Australia, you would get strange looks indeed, if someone didnt just hand you a sandwich with jelly (jello) crystals in it.
This is especially true when you consider the fact that Australians are known for putting nearly anything between two slices of bread (Fries, potato chips/crisps, etc), and the fact that most aussies have eaten raw jelly (jello) crystals at least once in their lives.
In fact, until such times as I came to Canada, I was under the impression that Americans/Canadians considered peanut butter and Jelly (jello) sandwiches a delicacy, not that I could fathom for the life of me who would ever consider putting both on the same sandwich lol.
Awesome story. :PCouldn't they just call it Soul instead of Ki ? It would open up more ideas...
Maybe the designers believe that Ki is already broad enough as it is. It does cover a wide variety of archetypes already, several of which have been pointed out in this thread itself.
-Ninja = Ki Striker (having 2 strikers is fine in one power source, as we've seen, and as much as I like the idea of the Ninja being a Shadow Striker, or even a paragon path, there is a bit of legacy for a Ki Ninja).
-Sohei = Ki Defender
As for other Asian classes, I could see:
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
-Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
I don't want to touch the samurai, Martial or Ki power source, is he an archer (ranged defender?), is a he an Iiajutsu (sp?) master (striker?), commander of the field (leader?) he is so many things!
What would constitute a Ki Controller (and what would you call it)?
As much as I don't want Ki to be the Asian catch-all power source (we do have the Kensai as a Martial Paragon Path, so there's hope), all I have so far (aside from the almost confirmed Monk - Ki Striker) is:
-Ninja = Ki Striker (having 2 strikers is fine in one power source, as we've seen, and as much as I like the idea of the Ninja being a Shadow Striker, or even a paragon path, there is a bit of legacy for a Ki Ninja).
-Sohei = Ki Defender
As for other Asian classes, I could see:
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
-Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
I don't want to touch the samurai, Martial or Ki power source, is he an archer (ranged defender?), is a he an Iiajutsu (sp?) master (striker?), commander of the field (leader?) he is so many things!
What would constitute a Ki Controller (and what would you call it)?
While those are Ki classes, they are not what I meant by Archetypes. These are some of the Archetypes that Ki can cover:
*Martial Artists who can fire blasts of energy from their open palms.
*Swordsmen whose blades are extensions of themselves.
*Mystical Assassins who can kill with a light touch.
While those are Ki classes, they are not what I meant by Archetypes.
To be honest, I wasn't responding to you, just the thread in general (no offence, really).
While those are Ki classes, they are not what I meant by Archetypes. These are some of the Archetypes that Ki can cover:
*Martial Artists who can fire blasts of energy from their open palms.
*Swordsmen whose blades are extensions of themselves.
*Mystical Assassins who can kill with a light touch.
Controlling the Ki of other people, crushing them or strengthening them.
(Controller / Leader )
Creating things using Ki (KiCarnum)
Controlling the Ki of other people, crushing them or strengthening them.
(Controller / Leader )
Creating things using Ki (KiCarnum)
Those aren't Archetypes, they just describe what someone does. These are archetypes:
- An archer
- A warrior who uses a sword and shield
- A person who learned magic from musty tomes.
- A person who made a deal with a devil for arcane secrets.
- A knight in the service of a church.
- A warrior priest.
- A prophet who smites infidels with the power of his god.
- a holy assassin
- A warrior who wields blade and spell equally.
- A tricky thief.
- A swashbuckler.
- A brawny thug.
- A beast tamer.
- A performer who does magic with music.
- A person with natural access to magic.
- A warrior who whips himself in a frenzy where he acts like an animal.
- A dervish who wields two blades.
- A warrior who wields a massive two handed weapon.
- A cunning battlefield commander.
These are most of the archetypes the already existing classes were based on.
A Mystic that wears his Ki as a weapon and armor (and can share this feats)
better ?
A Sage that learned to controll the lifeforce (Soul / Ki ) of others
A Mystic that wears his Ki as a weapon and armor (and can share this feats)
better ?
Yeah, though the class names could use a lot of work.
Your "Sage" is the basic archetype of most pressure point using "Old Master" characters in many a Wuxia movie, but the name has connotations that leave most D&D players thinking of an NPC who knows a lot.
Your "Mystic" is a slightly expanded version of what the Soulknife is, and the Soulknife is already agreed as being a good candidate for being a Ki class. Kuwabara from Yu Yu Hakusho is a good example of this character type. The name "Mystic" could arguably fall in the Psionic, Arcane, Divine, Shadow or even Elemental power sources easily.
Those aren't Archetypes, they just describe what someone does. These are archetypes:
- A person who learned magic from musty tomes.
- A person who made a deal with a devil for arcane secrets.
- A person with natural access to magic.
Person is not a good class name. You know that this names are just placeholders. Let's not argue about any letter please.
Person is not a good class name. You know that this names are just placeholders. Let's not argue about any letter please.
It was just that you had capitalized sage and mystic as if they were proper nouns, and I felt that I should point out the problems with using them as such. You should also note that I used only common nouns in my archetypes, and the 4E names of none of the classes appeared in any of them. So it was more of a case of you writing up two class descriptions and not archetypes.
Now ignoring the comments about the names, what is your response to my comments on the archetypes themselves?
Call lesser elemental spirits "Kami", and let Elemental classes summon and control them as parts of their powers.
Samurai, with a forceful shout and a swing of their weapon, unleash wind kami as a blade of air. Ninja are one with the earth and air, flying in graceful leaps and blending with ease into any surrounding, even in broad daylight. And Wu Jen and Shugenja call upon the kami in their own iconic ways.
It is easy to make cool ideas for ki!:D I did it last page......just no one paid any attention to it.
I paid attention to it... It just took me a while to sort out my thoughts in the matter.
The thing is, I can see an argument that things like Personas, Zanpakutou, and Yusuke's Spirit Beast Pu belong in the Ki Power Source. What is more, I can see how they match some of the ideas of Incarnum. However, I still don't like the idea of bringing 3.5E Incarnum into the 4E Ki Power Source. As such, I am beginning to think that the reason I have been objecting to mixing Ki and Incarnum is that I simply don't like the flavor and mechanical implementation of 3.5E Incarnum. If KiCarnum means seeing characters with Personas and/or Zanpakutou, then I am 100% fine with it. I just don't want to see characters loading down magic item slots with random items made out of generic soul-stuff.
The central element that makes Personas, Zanpakutou/Hollows,and Yusuke's Spirit Beast so interesting is that they are reflections of a person's "true self". Whether that is a total reflection or a reflection of a suppressed "Id" differs, but they nonetheless draw power and form from the very soul of the person calling upon that power. They demand that the person calling upon such a power stare into the face of their true nature and remain strong, which is what I would consider to be at the very heart of the idea of "Ki". This element is lacking in 3.5E Incarnum, which is one reason why I dislike the idea of bringing that book back, but I would like to see a version of Ki that had such an aspect to it.
There is a slight problem though in that Personas and such work just as well as an odd form of Psionics, depending on how you write the definitions. After all, "Persona" is an explicit reference to a psychological term, as is the name of the "Shadows" that Personas are made from. The very idea of an incarnation of the "Id" that has been tamed by the "Ego" (I can't stand the Freudian terminology, but it gets the point across) can easily be linked to Psionics. However, this really is a matter of specific definition and flavor more than anything, so it isn't a big problem.
Honestly, though, the other big problem I have always had with Incarnum is that it is just too mundane. Ultimately, even though you are creating a sword out of pure magic and soul-stuff, it is still just a sword you use like any other. I would be much happier if the weapons created from Incarnum or KiCarnum worked a lot more like this. After all, if you are a class entirely built around your creating your own weapon, it may as well be a more badass weapon than anyone else can get.
...western "arcane" magic has its roots not in Jewish Kabbalism, but in Celtic/gaulish paganism - specifically, ancient druidism and wicca - all of which have their roots in european neolithic traditions.
I can't let that claim pass unchallenged. Western "magic" most emphatically does not have its roots in wicca--because there was no wicca before the 20th century!
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200101/wicca
I didn't think anyone still believed that wicca was thousands and thousands of years old anymore. Wicca has more in common with 19th century-style "Golden Dawn" hermetic practices than with anything genuinely neolithic. Saying that it had any influence at all on medieval European magical practices is fatuous.
Additionally, I'm not sure how much of the Western "magical" tradition can be said to have been influenced by genuine historical druidry, either. On what do you base this opinion? Can you support this position with primary sources? How much do we even know about the actual practices of historical druids? It is my understanding that we know very little, and most of that comes from a couple of Roman authors.
How much do we even know about the actual practices of historical druids? It is my understanding that we know very little, and most of that comes from a couple of Roman authors.
"No one knows who they were…or what they were doing." *In the voices of the members of Spinal Tap*
And in 4E you use YOUR Soul to create weapons and or armor out of it. That is KiCarnum so to say. It has the same image as incarnum, creating things out of Soul energy, but uses your own Ki.
Links to the source of this? This is YOUR assumption, not an official WotC stance
You are making baseless assumptions based on what you want.
I'm making assumptions based on what they had written about Incarnum in the previous edition. I can point to facts in the book that support my interpertation. You can't.
I'm not saying you'll be wrong. We don't know enough yet.
BUT: I feel that there is more evidence to support my view. (As the "I WANT KICARNUM" posts are not, in fact, evidence.)
If the Shinigami don't scream Soulblade [renamed Soulknife], I truly don't know what cultural reference does.
Not only that, but as was said on another thread, the Zanpakutou itself gives us a cultural reference for how easily Incarnum could be refluffed into its KiCarnum counterpart.
Shikai and bankai abilities can be very easily expressed as Encounter/Daily powers which use the Zanpakutou (Light/Heavy Blade) as an Impliment, for example:
Soulblade [Soulknife Feature] [At-Will, Minor, Conjuration, Personal]
Effect: You manifest a Soulblade - a unique reflection of your soul, given weapon form. Your Soulblade is treated in all respects as a magic weapon of your level (PHB p232). Regardless of its form, you are considered proficient with your Soulblade, which acts as both a weapon, and as an impliment for your powers.
Special: At character creation, choose one simple melee or military weapon. Each time you use this power, your Soulblade is treated as a weapon of this type. This choice remains throughout your characters career. If you have the Exotic Soulblade or Twin Soulblade feats, your Soulblade takes the form of the weapon indicated by those feats instead.
Empowered Blade [Soulknife Utility 6] [Encounter, Minor Action, Personal, Impliment]
Effect: Your Soulblade is treated as a magic weapon of your chosen type until the end of your next turn. This power does not affect the enhancement bonus of your Soulblade.
Sustain: Minor You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter, or for five minutes.
Special: When you first gain this power, choose one 6th level (or lower) magic weapon quality, such as Flaming Weapon or Pact Blade. The choice you make is permanent, and remains throughout your characters career.
Windstrike [Soulknife Attack 3] [Encounter, Standard Action, Close Blast 3, Impliment]
Target: One creature in blast.
Special: You must be manifesting your Soulblade.
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage and you push the target 1 square.
I paid attention to it... It just took me a while to sort out my thoughts in the matter.
The thing is, I can see an argument that things like Personas, Zanpakutou, and Yusuke's Spirit Beast Pu belong in the Ki Power Source. What is more, I can see how they match some of the ideas of Incarnum. However, I still don't like the idea of bringing 3.5E Incarnum into the 4E Ki Power Source. As such, I am beginning to think that the reason I have been objecting to mixing Ki and Incarnum is that I simply don't like the flavor and mechanical implementation of 3.5E Incarnum. If KiCarnum means seeing characters with Personas and/or Zanpakutou, then I am 100% fine with it. I just don't want to see characters loading down magic item slots with random items made out of generic soul-stuff.
The central element that makes Personas, Zanpakutou/Hollows,and Yusuke's Spirit Beast so interesting is that they are reflections of a person's "true self". Whether that is a total reflection or a reflection of a suppressed "Id" differs, but they nonetheless draw power and form from the very soul of the person calling upon that power. They demand that the person calling upon such a power stare into the face of their true nature and remain strong, which is what I would consider to be at the very heart of the idea of "Ki". This element is lacking in 3.5E Incarnum, which is one reason why I dislike the idea of bringing that book back, but I would like to see a version of Ki that had such an aspect to it.
There is a slight problem though in that Personas and such work just as well as an odd form of Psionics, depending on how you write the definitions. After all, "Persona" is an explicit reference to a psychological term, as is the name of the "Shadows" that Personas are made from. The very idea of an incarnation of the "Id" that has been tamed by the "Ego" (I can't stand the Freudian terminology, but it gets the point across) can easily be linked to Psionics. However, this really is a matter of specific definition and flavor more than anything, so it isn't a big problem.
Honestly, though, the other big problem I have always had with Incarnum is that it is just too mundane. Ultimately, even though you are creating a sword out of pure magic and soul-stuff, it is still just a sword you use like any other. I would be much happier if the weapons created from Incarnum or KiCarnum worked a lot more like this. After all, if you are a class entirely built around your creating your own weapon, it may as well be a more badass weapon than anyone else can get.
Whoo! Someone actually like my idea!:D
And yeah I'm fully aware that persona wouldn't really fit the ki power source, but I was using that as more of an expansion of the archetype rather than the base(and I stole the name because it was the easiest one from my examples).
Bah, that fight video is extremely bland considering the awesomeness of the weapon. Now if you want to see how a 4ed soulknife should fight take a look at this video(roughly 1:13-2:46). If you are someone who is generating your own weapon, you should be able to quickly change the weapon to better fit the situation.....and yes I am fully aware that the character in the video does not use ki. He uses the "I'm in Game" power source. However the fighting style should translate(and it also supports my soulknife=controller theory).
Incidently the character in that video also works well with my "persona-user" archetpye as can be seen in these two videos. Video 1 Video 2 Although once again, he is using the "I'm in a Game" power source rather than any D&D power source.
Edit:
While I am not the first person to make this comparison, I believe that Bleach provides us a good reference for what the Ki classes may look like:
If the Shinigami don't scream Soulblade [renamed Soulknife], I truly don't know what cultural reference does.
Shush you, I'm using Shinigami and Zanpakutou as examples for my persona-user idea. If you want to use Bleach as an example of a soulknife then use Uryū and the Quincies as examples of ranged soulknifes. Don't steal one of my very few examples.:P
The easiest way of doing this would be if their daily powers had a lingering effect similar to that of the Barbarian Rage, save instead of granting them rage-benefits, they have a fricking huge Soulblade instead.
TBH, were that the case - such an ability would make for an awesome Striker "Damage" boost - your damage die increases, and you gain reach 2 with your weapon. For example;
Soulblade Transformation [Soulblade Feature] [At-Will, Immediate Interrupt, Polymorph]
At the moment of impact, your Soulblade becomes impossibly large, yet you wield it with ease.
Trigger: You hit an enemy with your Soulblade while using an Encounter or Daily power.
Effect: Your Soulblade becomes a huge weapon until the end of your next turn. This has the effect of increasing the damage of your Soulblade by two dice sizes, as shown on page 220 of the player's handbook, and increasing your reach by 1. Despite the increased size, you wield your enlarged soulblade with no more difficulty than normal.
Sustain Minor: You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter or for five minutes.
This power could also work as a Utility power, although the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to see the Soulknife as a Striker, although Im sure it could still be justified as a Defender (sub. striker) with the above powers being the more striker-y of their class powers.
Bah, that fight video is extremely bland considering the awesomeness of the weapon. Now if you want to see how a 4ed soulknife should fight take a look at this video(roughly 1:13-2:46). If you are someone who is generating your own weapon, you should be able to quickly change the weapon to better fit the situation.....and yes I am fully aware that the character in the video does not use ki. He uses the "I'm in Game" power source. However the fighting style should translate(and it also supports my soulknife=controller theory).
It depending on "what" a soulblade is would really influence the implied fighting style. "Your soulblade is your soul taking the form a weapon" would justify only a single weapon form/progression, while "A soulblade is a weapon made from my soul" would do the same for multiple/shifting weapon shapes.
Shush you, I'm using Shinigami and Zanpakutou as examples for my persona-user idea. If you want to use Bleach as an example of a soulknife then use Uryū and the Quincies as examples of ranged soulknifes. Don't steal one of my very few examples.:P
Maybe its just that Shinigami Zanpakutou make better examples of Soulblades than Personas.
That said, I'm actually seeing some solid arguments for a Ki power source. The Soulblade, specifically, is an example of a concept that is outside the Martial power source's purview from the get-go, is distinct from other power sources, and not thematically unprecedented. It needs some revision back away from the Bleach concept, as WotC doesn't need legal trouble, and blatant emulation of an anime series could very well prompt that, but it's a solid example. In fact, if you want the definition of Ki to be that broad, then superpowers-that-originate-internally can include healing powers similar to Orihime's, and group buffs wouldn't be too hard to come up with. I rather like the idea.
Still don't see how the Monk ties in, because from the information we've got about it, there's nothing so blatantly supernatural about it. It's supposed to be able to represent unarmed martial artists in general, not just the super-magical kind, (based on the Races and Classes preview,) and therefore should probably fall mostly within the Martial power source. I'd be open to a new Martial class that fills the gap, though.
Stunning Fist (and related feats: eg Rattlesnake Strike, Weakening Touch), Purity of Body, Slowfall, Monk Speed, Ki Strike, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Leap of the Heavens (3e), numerous monk PrC abilities....
All of that seems well beyond the purview of the Martial power source, and do not fit neatly within the other pre-existing powersources. They do however, fit the ideology that Ki users channel the powers of their Soul to grant them super-human abilities.
Any/all of these abilities can make the leap to 4th edition, and also act as stepping-stones to even more supernatural abilities:
Key examples include Inhuman Speed (Blur/After Image, Flurry, Monk Speed, Deflect/Snatch Arrows, super-initiative), Ki attacks (Ki Strike, Stunning Fist, Pressure Point Strikes, Ki Blasts/Air Strikes), Impossible Acrobatics (water/wall jumping/walking, etc), superhuman senses (blindsight, tremorsense, unerring accuracy, Monk AC, etc) and several other (hard to classify) abilities - Unassisted Flight, Teleportation, Phasing, etc.
In fact, between the pre-existing Monk stuff, and the sheer volume of anime and wuxia references to spiritual/ki based attacks - I am of the honest opinion that the Ki Power source could be seen as akin to the Superhuman power source, as their users are able to achieve feats beyond what should be possible for the physical body (see above).
This doesnt mean however, that their powers need to be any more powerful than that of other power sources, only that their powers should embody a feeling of physical/spiritual transcendance, and that their users can accomplish things that no normal [read: martial] person could perform, regardless of their skill.
This in comparison to the feats of the Martial Power source which should at least feel plausable within the real world, given enough training.
I disagree...
Stunning Fist (and related feats: eg Rattlesnake Strike, Weakening Touch), Purity of Body, Slowfall, Monk Speed, Ki Strike, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Leap of the Heavens (3e), numerous monk PrC abilities....
All of that seems well beyond the purview of the Martial power source, and do not fit neatly within the other pre-existing powersources. They do however, fit the ideology that Ki users channel the powers of their Soul to grant them super-human abilities.
Rattling key word and the like, for Stunning Fist and its various permutations.
Purity of Body? High Fort defense.
Acrobatics training, for slowfall.
Monk Speed is running fast.
Ki Strike has no point out of a 3.0/3.5 context.
The rest is all after 10th level, and doesn't matter. Don't even bring up prestige classes, because Paragon Paths break the rules too.
Why are we even talking about the ill-conceived 3.5 Monk? The designers have come right out and said that it didn't work and would be seriously redesigned for 4E, so a list of their 3.5 abilities is not exactly relevant.
In fact, between the pre-existing Monk stuff, and the sheer volume of anime and wuxia references to spiritual/ki based attacks - I am of the honest opinion that the Ki Power source could be seen as akin to the Superhuman power source, as their users are able to achieve feats beyond what should be possible for the physical body (ki blasts, air strikes, water-walking, etc).
This doesnt mean however, that their powers need to be any more powerful than that of other power sources, only that their powers embody a feeling of physical transcendance (unaided flight, diamond-hard body/attacks, ki blasts, inhuman speed/blur/after-image, etc).
This doesn't work out. When a superhuman and a human are doing similar things - like hitting people - the superhuman is going to be definitively better at it than the human.
In most anime and wuxia I'm familiar with, ki is the result of your martial training. It's the Martial power source upgraded. There's no need for both. There are exceptions, where they're not the same thing, but a martial artist who is relying on internally generated magic rather than martial ability seems a bit contradictory, or at the very least blurring the boundaries.
Inhuman speed and strength, particularly, tends to be the result of physical training to be fast and strong, even in the genres in question. The Martial power source.
The exceptions I spoke of are the ones where the class focuses exclusively on their special powers, like manifesting a blade or a healing power or something.
Yeah, doctorhook. I've been rude. You go on and on about how my refusal to agree with you is a result of a deficiency on my part, and when I get fed up and add a little snark to my replies, well, that's just simple disrespect. How dare me?
That said, I'm actually seeing some solid arguments for a Ki power source. The Soulblade, specifically, is an example of a concept that is outside the Martial power source's purview from the get-go, is distinct from other power sources, and not thematically unprecedented. It needs some revision back away from the Bleach concept, as WotC doesn't need legal trouble, and blatant emulation of an anime series could very well prompt that, but it's a solid example. In fact, if you want the definition of Ki to be that broad, then superpowers-that-originate-internally can include healing powers similar to Orihime's, and group buffs wouldn't be too hard to come up with. I rather like the idea.
Still don't see how the Monk ties in, because from the information we've got about it, there's nothing so blatantly supernatural about it. It's supposed to be able to represent unarmed martial artists in general, not just the super-magical kind, (based on the Races and Classes preview,) and therefore should probably fall mostly within the Martial power source. I'd be open to a new Martial class that fills the gap, though.
The best example is Rock Lee and Neji Hyuga.
Rock Lee is a Martial version of the monk. He has trained his hands and feet into mace or blunt weapons, which when used breaks a person from the outside in.
Neji Hyuga is the Ki version of the monk. The gentle fist is so named because the amount of damage the actual punches and kicks do have no baring on the damage of the body. Instead the Chakra/Ki is released from the physical attack so it enters the body of the opponent and messes them up that way. Like Lee says in the dub anime, Neji attacks a foe from the inside out.
The ki can also have multiple effects for the same attack. Martial monk attacks can likely daze, stun or weaken a foe like a Ki monk, but the Ki could also have more supernatural effects.
Necromatic and poison effects from the alien Ki eating away at the body like flesh eating virus. Perhaps elemental flavouring from the rich tradition of elements in anime and wuxia. Even emotional states from the rare anime (like Ranma 1/2 has a ki attacks based on confidence and depression. This doesn't count the fan fic spawned attacks of other emotions).
A low level Utility power might be the traditional battle aura, a glowing light around the subject which reveals the power of the opponent ( and maybe other factors like emotions and elements).
Is this helpful at all?
Whoo! Someone actually like my idea!:D
And yeah I'm fully aware that persona wouldn't really fit the ki power source, but I was using that as more of an expansion of the archetype rather than the base(and I stole the name because it was the easiest one from my examples).
As long as you define it slightly differently, it works just fine.
Bah, that fight video is extremely bland considering the awesomeness of the weapon. Now if you want to see how a 4ed soulknife should fight take a look at this video(roughly 1:13-2:46). If you are someone who is generating your own weapon, you should be able to quickly change the weapon to better fit the situation.....and yes I am fully aware that the character in the video does not use ki. He uses the "I'm in Game" power source. However the fighting style should translate(and it also supports my soulknife=controller theory).
I will disagree with this, though. I am happy to see another fan of the .hack//G.U. series, but Haseo's attacks in that video is really more of a matter of "Fighter with a golfbag of weapons" rather than a Soulknife... Besides, I don't really agree that kind of weapon versatility is something you want with the kind of class we are talking about. I would much rather see characters built around using a single "reflection of their soul" weapon that does things no normal weapon can do, rather than a versatile mix of weapons that just emulate what normal weapons can do.
Incidently the character in that video also works well with my "persona-user" archetpye as can be seen in these two videos. Video 1 Video 2 Although once again, he is using the "I'm in a Game" power source rather than any D&D power source.
Actually, I would say that this is a slightly different archetype. The power of the Avatars from .hack//G.U. are not really a "reflection of the soul", since the Avatars themselves are entities that exist independently of the people who call upon them. Besides, in the games themselves, they are more of a transformation than summoning (though their depiction in the .hack//G.U.+ manga does resemble Personas a bit more).
Actually, it isn't even really the "I'm in a game" power source in those videos. The Avatars and Epitaphs of .hack are basically digital gods that completely transcend the gameworld. It is much closer to being the "I'm a god" power source.
Actually, I was going to link to that Skeith Awakening video myself, to describe my own idea for a Avatar Epic Destiny. In other words, a Ki Epic Destiny in which the immense power of a Ki character's soul is explained as the result of being the physical incarnation of a god. Basically it would be equivalent to how the Demigod Epic Destiny works to emulate the Greek myths of Heracles, except it instead emulates the Indian myths of Rama and the other incarnations of the gods in Indian myth.
Shush you, I'm using Shinigami and Zanpakutou as examples for my persona-user idea. If you want to use Bleach as an example of a soulknife then use Uryū and the Quincies as examples of ranged soulknifes. Don't steal one of my very few examples.:P
Uryu and the Quincies are indeed great examples of a Ki-based archer class. I suppose that Kagome and Kikyo from Inuyasha would be the other great examples of Ki-based archery...
It depending on "what" a soulblade is would really influence the implied fighting style. "Your soulblade is your soul taking the form a weapon" would justify only a single weapon form/progression, while "A soulblade is a weapon made from my soul" would do the same for multiple/shifting weapon shapes.
Maybe its just that Shinigami Zanpakutou make better examples of Soulblades than Personas.
Yeah I guess you could make an argument for a single form soulblade. However I think that it would be more interesting to go for the multi-weapon route since that is a considerably different archetype then most of the ones we have availble now. Of course that is just my opinion.
And Zanpakutou can work as representations of both. Or perhaps I should say they have aspects of both. The blades are composed of a shinigami's spirtual energy. However the blades possess a sentience that is seperate from, while residing within, the shinigami. Of course this sentience is hardly relevent until the shinigami is nearly able to achieve bankai, but it is there the entire time.
The best example is Rock Lee and Neji Hyuga.
Is this helpful at all?
This is the sort of thing I was proposing to begin with. The Monk class, from what little information we got so long ago - possibly outdated - was supposed to be able to represent all sorts of martial artist archetypes. This is why I was upset that it was revealed to be a Ki class - there being little difference between the way most martial artists in fiction train and the way Martial characters train, and fight too. The compromise I suggested is that the Monk, as a Ki striker, focus more on the esoteric stuff, and the hypothetical Martial class focus more on the move-fast-hit-hard stuff.
I doubt very much that this is how things are going to work, and I anticipate rolling my eyes a great deal at what WotC does with the Ki power source, because the company's treatment of the material has been... rough, in the past. I hope I will be pleasantly surprised, but I'm expecting the worst.
EDIT: Oh, and regarding the Dragon Ball comparison from earlier: apparently, people think D&D characters are capable of blowing up the moon in heroic tier. Holy freaking crap.
Mostly, these abilities came in the form of feats that worked off of Stunning Fist. If memory serves, the 3.5 Player's Handbook II had the Ki Blast feat, which allowed for a ranged touch attack that did 3d6 + Wisdom modifier damage at the cost of two Stunning Fist uses, as well as Fiery Ki Fist, which allowed for some extra fire damage on an unarmed strike at the cost of a use of Stunning Fist, and another fiery ki something feat that built off of Fiery Ki Fist that allowed you to inflict fire damage upon enemies striking you. Sandstorm also had some Stunning Fist add-on feats, like Pharaoh's Fist, which I believe allowed for a sonic or deafening attack of some kind on enemies adjacent to the one you were striking at the cost of a use of Stunning Fist, another that allowed you to make poisonous unarmed strikes for a use of Stunning Fist, and one that allowed you to extend your reach by a square for a use of Stunning Fist.
Make of such things what you will. I'd honestly be surprised if we didn't see a couple of the above tropes echoed in the 4E monk to give it a feel of being more supernatural than the martial power source, though I also wouldn't be surprised if it were by no means impossible to take out some of the optional abilities and reflavour remaining ones to fit within the martial power source.
Here's one I'm wondering about: will the monk be a more fragile striker like the rogue, or will it be a tough striker akin to the barbarian or avenger? One of the monk's iconic abilities in 3.x was the ability to mend its own wounds, and I wonder if that feature will make it to 4E and turn it to the side of being more durable. Or has WotC pulled another sorcerer and made plans to give us a defender or (please no) a controller instead?
This is the sort of thing I was proposing to begin with. The Monk class, from what little information we got so long ago - possibly outdated - was supposed to be able to represent all sorts of martial artist archetypes. This is why I was upset that it was revealed to be a Ki class - there being little difference between the way most martial artists in fiction train and the way Martial characters train, and fight too. The compromise I suggested is that the Monk, as a Ki striker, focus more on the esoteric stuff, and the hypothetical Martial class focus more on the move-fast-hit-hard stuff.
I doubt very much that this is how things are going to work, and I anticipate rolling my eyes a great deal at what WotC does with the Ki power source, because the company's treatment of the material has been... rough, in the past. I hope I will be pleasantly surprised, but I'm expecting the worst.
The way I see it, the actual physical attacks can do some damage. But in the same way as the sword for a swordmage, the fist is more like a delivery system for the power. It's like your own body could be used as an implement.
Think Touch of Death. A normal person touches you with a few fingers and nothing happens. A Ki master does it, and his ki instantly emerges into the foes body and compresses the heart for major, even lethal damage.
Also I can see the fact that physical martial training is needed to train the Ki as an idea suggested by a Ranma fan fic. You train physically until you have burned all of your body's power. You muscles have broken into semi-liquid and filled with fatigue poisons. One you have tapped out that fuel system, your ki system has to be tapped to continue with your training. Like two fuel tanks, one must be used up before the second is used. It has the side effect of a strong fighter, but it's a side effect.
Thoughts?
I think back to the 3.5 monk, and I get to thinking about some of the abilities it got in later splatbooks. Even though the devs said that the 4E monk would not be the 3.5 monk (thank goodness), that doesn't mean that its later abilities might not inspire some of the 4E monk's abilities, and some of its later abilities did have a decidedly superhuman feel to them.
Mostly, these abilities came in the form of feats that worked off of Stunning Fist. If memory serves, the 3.5 Player's Handbook II had the Ki Blast feat, which allowed for a ranged touch attack that did 3d6 + Wisdom modifier damage at the cost of two Stunning Fist uses, as well as Fiery Ki Fist, which allowed for some extra fire damage on an unarmed strike at the cost of a use of Stunning Fist, and another fiery ki something feat that built off of Fiery Ki Fist that allowed you to inflict fire damage upon enemies striking you. Sandstorm also had some Stunning Fist add-on feats, like Pharaoh's Fist, which I believe allowed for a sonic or deafening attack of some kind on enemies adjacent to the one you were striking at the cost of a use of Stunning Fist, another that allowed you to make poisonous unarmed strikes for a use of Stunning Fist, and one that allowed you to extend your reach by a square for a use of Stunning Fist.
Make of such things what you will. I'd honestly be surprised if we didn't see a couple of the above tropes echoed in the 4E monk to give it a feel of being more supernatural than the martial power source, though I also wouldn't be surprised if it were by no means impossible to take out some of the optional abilities and reflavour remaining ones to fit within the martial power source.
Here's one I'm wondering about: will the monk be a more fragile striker like the rogue, or will it be a tough striker akin to the barbarian or avenger? One of the monk's iconic abilities in 3.x was the ability to mend its own wounds, and I wonder if that feature will make it to 4E and turn it to the side of being more durable. Or has WotC pulled another sorcerer and made plans to give us a defender or (please no) a controller instead?
I'm sure the finished Monk will undoubtedly feature those sorts of effects. I think they'll feel rather cheap if every attack works like that, but oh well. We'll see.
My guess for the Monk HP issue is that it will have a decent AC from class features, and probably more HP than the typical PHB Striker, possibly (but not necessarily) due to Toughness.
The way I see it, the actual physical attacks can do some damage. But in the same way as the sword for a swordmage, the fist is more like a delivery system for the power. It's like your own body could be used as an implement.
Think Touch of Death. A normal person touches you with a few fingers and nothing happens. A Ki master does it, and his ki instantly emerges into the foes body and compresses the heart for major, even lethal damage.
This is conveyed with the Hyuga Neji example, yes. It's a very specific archetype, though, and doesn't fit many of the character types I would like to play.
Also I can see the fact that physical martial training is needed to train the Ki as an idea suggested by a Ranma fan fic. You train physically until you have burned all of your body's power. You muscles have broken into semi-liquid and filled with fatigue poisons. One you have tapped out that fuel system, your ki system has to be tapped to continue with your training. Like two fuel tanks, one must be used up before the second is used. It has the side effect of a strong fighter, but it's a side effect.
Thoughts?
Doesn't fit even very many fictional versions of ki very well. Don't like that at all.
This is the sort of thing I was proposing to begin with. The Monk class, from what little information we got so long ago - possibly outdated - was supposed to be able to represent all sorts of martial artist archetypes. This is why I was upset that it was revealed to be a Ki class - there being little difference between the way most martial artists in fiction train and the way Martial characters train, and fight too. The compromise I suggested is that the Monk, as a Ki striker, focus more on the esoteric stuff, and the hypothetical Martial class focus more on the move-fast-hit-hard stuff.
Martial characters and Ki character may undergo similar training regiments, but they do so for entirely different reasons. For the martial character physical discipline is its own reward. For the Ki character the goal is spiritual discipline and physical discipline is just a beneficial side-effect.
If you can't grasp this then you clearly aren't paying attention to how Ki is typically depicted in most fictional medias, or you are confusing it with Martial fiction that merely has eastern themes and influences.
Even in real life the difference between Ki and Martial exists, at least from a philosophical stand point. It can be seen in the difference between how the martial arts are taught in the traditional east (non-military) vs. how martial arts are typically taught in the west.
The way I see it, the actual physical attacks can do some damage. But in the same way as the sword for a swordmage, the fist is more like a delivery system for the power. It's like your own body could be used as an implement.
Think Touch of Death. A normal person touches you with a few fingers and nothing happens. A Ki master does it, and his ki instantly emerges into the foes body and compresses the heart for major, even lethal damage.
[ . . . ]
Thoughts?
I'd imagine that they'll have at least one build or a few big powers in this vein. I'd honestly be shocked if they didn't.
I'm still hoping that one of its builds is more defender-secondary than controller-secondary, though, considering just how many strikers we already have that minor in controller. Let's see--the rogue, warlock, some rangers, sorcerers, and avengers (though the avenger really seems to have a "hidden" defender streak to me, too). So that's like five of the six confirmed striker classes, not counting the monk. For strikers with a defendery streak, we have some rangers, some barbarians, and maybe the avenger.
If they decide to make it a defender instead, I could see it having either controller or striker as a secondary role--probably depending upon build choice and focus on disruptive ki-manipulation attacks (I'm thinking "status effects" here) or on mobility and raw pain. If they decide to make it a controller well shoot I am at a loss.
EDIT: Actually can we just make it a defender guys we have like six strikers and four defenders (and I'm not sure assault swordmages count). No don't you dare use this one as an argument to make it a controller I know they only have like three guys.
I will disagree with this, though. I am happy to see another fan of the .hack//G.U. series, but Haseo's attacks in that video is really more of a matter of "Fighter with a golfbag of weapons" rather than a Soulknife... Besides, I don't really agree that kind of weapon versatility is something you want with the kind of class we are talking about. I would much rather see characters built around using a single "reflection of their soul" weapon that does things no normal weapon can do, rather than a versatile mix of weapons that just emulate what normal weapons can do.
Hurray a G.U. fan!:D
My idea for using Hasseo as the basis for the soulknife fighting style isn't so much that I think he makes a good soulknife literally. I've just been advocating the idea of the soulknife as someone who is basically able to shift his weapon frequently during combat since around the time 4ed came out. I don't really think that every single one of the ki classes should have the "reflection of soul" angle. I see the soulknife, assuming it is a ki class, as being something more along the lines of someone who through meditation and training is able to shape their ki. Although I very well might be the only one who really likes that idea.*shrugs*
Actually, I would say that this is a slightly different archetype. The power of the Avatars from .hack//G.U. are not really a "reflection of the soul", since the Avatars themselves are entities that exist independently of the people who call upon them. Besides, in the games themselves, they are more of a transformation than summoning (though their depiction in the .hack//G.U.+ manga does resemble Personas a bit more).
Ah but you are forgetting one thing about the Avatars in G.U. They selected their hosts based off of a compatibility with the person behind the controller. If you look at all the characters they share some form of a personality trait with their Avatar..... The Terror of Death? A reformed PKer who became a legendary PKK. Gorre, who in the original .hack was represented as two stone tablets with heads, joined with a boy who possessed a split personality. The Prophet? A infortmation dealer who predicted the movements of the cursed wave in the originals and became an all seeing admin in G.U. All of them have personality traits of some kind which make them compatible with their avatar, which is why their characters have the avatars to begin with. The difference here is that the avatars weren't born from some aspect of the souls of their users. They were free standing entities that were drawn to their users because of some aspect of the person's soul.
And the games aren't really too clear on how they work. When you play the game it certainly seems that it is a transformation. However based off of the in game movies, it would seem that the characters themselves still exist where they were prior to calling for the avatar. Specifically the video when Skeith goes berserk, Hassea appears on the ground. Meanwhile no one in the stadium ever actually notices Hasseo floating in mid air while using Skeith.
Martial characters and Ki character may undergo similar training regiments, but the do so for entirely different reasons. For the martial character physical discipline is its own reward. For the Ki character the goal is spiritual discipline and physical discipline is just a beneficial side-effect.
If you can't grasp this then you clearly aren't paying attention to how Ki is typically depicted in most fictional medias, or you are confusing it with Martial fiction that merely has eastern themes and influences.
Even in real life the difference between Ki and Martial exists, at least from a philosophical stand point. It can be seen in the difference between how the martial arts are taught in the traditional east (non-military) vs. how martial arts are typically taught in the west.
Again, I'm so sorry. My failure to agree with you is clearly, as you say, a deficiency on my part. But sad as my failings are, I have no choice but to trudge along this path, because any other is beyond me.
No. Just freaking no. This is just outright false. Go as far East as you want, nobody thinks ki works like that. It's a part of the body's natural function. If you have a strong, healthy body, you have strong, healthy ki. Can't have one without the other. Training your ki is viewed - and practiced - much like muscle control exercises. Manipulating it in an opponent is similar to targeting joints and fragile bones. There just is no real significant difference to speak of.
In fiction, the characters with ki attacks tend to train in ways that are pretty much identical to what a Martial archetype character does. Ki manipulation is just a step in their progression. It's assumed that everyone, sooner or later, will learn to manipulate their ki as they progress in their physical training. That's how it works in Ranma 1/2. That's how it works in Dragon Ball. Even in Naruto, the difference isn't in Ki vs. not-Ki, but how the ki is used - see Rock Lee in the Chuunin Exam for an extreme example.
[ . . . ] Rock Lee in the Chuunin Exam for an extreme example.
...I went and looked that up but who actually won?
...I went and looked that up but who actually won?
Gaara won, technically. He went to the next round.
Gaara won, technically. He went to the next round.
Poor Lee, always getting the shaft.
Again, I'm so sorry. My failure to agree with you is clearly, as you say, a deficiency on my part. But sad as my failings are, I have no choice but to trudge along this path, because any other is beyond me.
Be as sarcastic as you like, however, reading this thread I seem to count more people that can grasp the concept that martial and ki are different than those who can't. We may not all agree on how they are different but we understand that they are. So maybe, just maybe, your inability to do so really is a failing on your part.
No. Just freaking no. This is just outright false. Go as far East as you want, nobody thinks ki works like that. It's a part of the body's natural function. If you have a strong, healthy body, you have strong, healthy ki. Can't have one without the other. Training your ki is viewed - and practiced - much like muscle control exercises. Manipulating it in an opponent is similar to targeting joints and fragile bones. There just is no real significant difference to speak of.
That's because, so far as anyone can tell, there are no supernatural powers in our world. That's why I said the difference was "philosophical".
I've trained in Taekwondo, both under Korean masters and American instructors. The exercises and techniques are the same, but the reasoning behind and for them is different. Under the first spiritual discipline is what matters, and it is by having a disciplined spirit that one acquires a disciplined body. Without a disciplined spirit the physical training is meaningless, philosophically speaking at least. Under an American instructor body and spirit are still both important but the order of significance is reversed (one gains a disciplined spirit through physical discipline) and that is just with the better schools. I've met people from schools were they only teach physical discipline and treat the martial arts as little more then a completive sport.
In fiction, the characters with ki attacks tend to train in ways that are pretty much identical to what a Martial archetype character does. Ki manipulation is just a step in their progression. It's assumed that everyone, sooner or later, will learn to manipulate their ki as they progress in their physical training. That's how it works in Ranma 1/2. That's how it works in Dragon Ball. Even in Naruto, the difference isn't in Ki vs. not-Ki, but how the ki is used - see Rock Lee in the Chuunin Exam for an extreme example.
Again how they train might be similar or even the same. The difference is in why they train. Furthermore, in almost any martial arts fiction, even the more realistic ones, characters who train both their body and spirit are almost always depicted as having a distinct edge over opponents who only discipline their bodies. Again, people can recognize and except that ki and martial are different even if they might be intertwined and connected.
Poor Lee, always getting the shaft.
No joke. I stopped reading/watching the series after I realized that the post-timeskip stuff really wasn't getting any better, but I gather that he's not doing much of anything.
In fiction, the characters with ki attacks tend to train in ways that are pretty much identical to what a Martial archetype character does. Ki manipulation is just a step in their progression. It's assumed that everyone, sooner or later, will learn to manipulate their ki as they progress in their physical training. That's how it works in Ranma 1/2. That's how it works in Dragon Ball. Even in Naruto, the difference isn't in Ki vs. not-Ki, but how the ki is used - see Rock Lee in the Chuunin Exam for an extreme example.
That isn't how it works in YuYu Hakusho. Kuwabara through out the series after he awakens to his spiritual ability basically does no physical training, at least that we see, and yet he continues to become stronger. Instead he at first comes to better understand the nature of his powers, which allows him to develop new techniques and use them without a spirtual focus. Then later on he gains a new spirtual focus which he practices with to gain new abilities, and that focus eventually causes his powers to morph into a more powerful version.
Likewise Yusuke has multiple instances where he does training with almost no physical benefits, but still improve his skills. Off the top of my head, I recall one instance where his training is to balance on the top of a spike(or something) using his spirtual energy focused into a single finger for something like a week. Another instance is when he inherits Genkai's technique by absorbing a ball of Genkai's spirtual energy.
A leader might use the Ki in the environment to heal others, perhaps having trees and grass gain a few dead spots on them. A striker or defender might gain a power type based on their location. Like a earth/force attack in a cave, a wind/cold attack on a mountain, water/acid in the lakes and seas, fire on a volcano or necromatic attack in a graveyard and/or battlefield.
Thoughts on that?
Let's face the fact, until we know what the monk's role is we have no idea of it's powers. Is it a leader? A defender? A striker controller? A difference in roles can change what we might expect in a monk. We might just leave it be until we get more data from Wizards... or the forum's secret spies in the company.
Be as sarcastic as you like, however, reading this thread I seem to count more people that can grasp the concept that martial and ki are different than those who can't. We may not all agree on how they are different but we understand that they are. So maybe, just maybe, your inability to do so really is a failing on your part.
Because the popular opinion is always right.
That's because, so far as anyone can tell, there are no supernatural powers in our world. That's why I said the difference was "philosophical".
"Philosophical" meaning "I just made them up," apparently. It's not a way I've heard the word used before, but whatever.
I've trained in Taekwondo, both under Korean masters and American instructors. The exercises and techniques are the same, but the reasoning behind and for them is different. Under the first spiritual discipline is what matters, and it is by having a disciplined spirit that one acquires a disciplined body. Without a disciplined spirit the physical training is meaningless, philosophically speaking at least. Under an American instructor body and spirit are still both important but the order of significance is reversed (one gains a disciplined spirit through physical discipline) and that is just with the better schools. I've met people from schools were they only teach physical discipline and treat the martial arts as little more then a completive sport.
Guess how much significance I attribute to the opinions of instructors of a competitive sport style that was developed in the 50s? Especially the ones that seem to think that enough mysticism makes their explicitly competitive sport art more than a competitive sport art?
Again how they train might be similar or even the same. The difference is in why they train. Furthermore, in almost any martial arts fiction, even the more realistic ones, characters who train both their body and spirit are almost always depicted as having a distinct edge over opponents who only discipline their bodies. Again, people can recognize and except that ki and martial are different even if they might be intertwined and connected.
So, having a different mindset during training would turn a Fighter into something else entirely, with fancy flaming fists and special energy blast techniques? ... W. T. F.
And yes, in most fiction of any kind, the fighters who emphasize focus and discipline are going to have an edge over the ones who just smashed stuff. Doesn't mean they're drawing power from a different source.
That isn't how it works in YuYu Hakusho. Kuwabara through out the series after he awakens to his spiritual ability basically does no physical training, at least that we see, and yet he continues to become stronger. Instead he at first comes to better understand the nature of his powers, which allows him to develop new techniques and use them without a spirtual focus. Then later on he gains a new spirtual focus which he practices with to gain new abilities, and that focus eventually causes his powers to morph into a more powerful version.
Likewise Yusuke has multiple instances where he does training with almost no physical benefits, but still improve his skills. Off the top of my head, I recall one instance where his training is to balance on the top of a spike(or something) using his spirtual energy focused into a single finger for something like a week. Another instance is when he inherits Genkai's technique by absorbing a ball of Genkai's spirtual energy.
I'm not opposed to drawing from Eastern influences or even anime in particular, but can we at least try to maintain some appearance of the ki power source not going that far out into weeaboo territory?
Another factor we are all forgetting is that Ki is in everything, at least due to the eastern tradition. One possibility is the use of outer ki, the soul energy/life force of living (even non-living) things to power up attacks.
A leader might use the Ki in the environment to heal others, perhaps having trees and grass gain a few dead spots on them. A striker or defender might gain a power type based on their location. Like a earth/force attack in a cave, a wind/cold attack on a mountain, water/acid in the lakes and seas, fire on a volcano or necromatic attack in a graveyard and/or battlefield.
Thoughts on that?
Sounds like Elemental power source.
Let's face the fact, until we know what the monk's role is we have no idea of it's powers. Is it a leader? A defender? A striker controller? A difference in roles can change what we might expect in a monk. We might just leave it be until we get more data from Wizards... or the forum's secret spies in the company.
We've been told that it is a Striker.
We've been told that it is a Striker.
We have been told it's a striker, and it probably is. Then again, there is the fact that we already have like six strikers, as well as the whole sorcerer incident, so who knows.
Another factor we are all forgetting is that Ki is in everything, at least due to the eastern tradition. One possibility is the use of outer ki, the soul energy/life force of living (even non-living) things to power up attacks.
A leader might use the Ki in the environment to heal others, perhaps having trees and grass gain a few dead spots on them. A striker or defender might gain a power type based on their location. Like a earth/force attack in a cave, a wind/cold attack on a mountain, water/acid in the lakes and seas, fire on a volcano or necromatic attack in a graveyard and/or battlefield.
4ed D&D default fluff has it established that only sentient creatures have souls. Non-sentient living creatures only have a body and an animus. As ki has been described as the power of the soul, that would put it as impossible to draw power from the life around you unless you are in a city or other heavily populated area......unless they decide to change ki to being based on the animus which I would be mostly fine with.
I'm not opposed to drawing from Eastern influences or even anime in particular, but can we at least try to maintain some appearance of the ki power source not going that far out into weeaboo territory?
Wha? He cited examples in anime where physical and ki training were identical and I cited a show where they weren't the same. I hardly see the problem.We have been told it's a striker, and it probably is. Then again, there is the fact that we already have like six strikers, as well as the whole sorcerer incident, so who knows.
By the time the Monk is released, the spread should be better.
Anyway, to clarify on my comment on TKD:
I got my start in TKD. I spent a lot of years studying it. I worked with more than one master, both American and Korean. I took Korean language classes, even. And with that background, I can definitively say one thing:
Training in Tae Kwon Do is no more or less spiritual than an afternoon workout at the gym. It was never intended to be. There was no such thing as Tae Kwon Do until the 1950s, when it was developed as a sport art. There was no effort to incorporate any sort of mysticism. Lots of masters of the art would love to tell you otherwise, because apparently it lends credibility in the martial arts community or something, but despite its popularity, TKD just isn't that thing they want it to be so badly.
Because the popular opinion is always right.
No, but the fact that this "popular opinion" is made made up of individuals each siting examples of how they see the difference might. Where as, by my recollection, you have done little more then to tell the rest of us that we are wrong or that our examples are invalid.
Guess how much significance I attribute to the opinions of instructors of a competitive sport style that was developed in the 50s? Especially the ones that seem to think that enough mysticism makes their explicitly competitive sport art more than a competitive sport art?
I'll give you a point there. I'm actually quite well aware of the fact that the legitimate history of that particular martial art is fairly recent. I'm also aware that even the most critical analysis of its history will reveal that it was developed from Karate, which in turn was developed from even older Chinese martial arts.
I only mentioned Taekwondo because it is the martial art I have had personal experience with, because it is what has been available. I have had friends who trained in other martial arts, and from what they tell me the basic differences between a modern western approach and traditional eastern approach hold true.
So, having a different mindset during training would turn a Fighter into something else entirely, with fancy flaming fists and special energy blast techniques? ... W. T. F.
Sure, though it's less about mind set and more about focus. As I said both martial and ki can care about both physical and spiritual discipline. The difference is in the order that they care about them and how much emphasis is put onto each.
However, what ki can do that martial can't is have characters who only care about ki. Spiritualists who have absolute mastery of ki and can channel it in even more fantastical ways, but who are otherwise frail. Sort of a ki wizard.
And thank you for that. I didn't have to go to any effort to show just how goofy it was when the two concepts were divorced.
No, but the fact that this "popular opinion" is made made up of individuals each siting examples of how they see the difference might. Where as, by my recollection, you have done little more then to tell the rest of us that we are wrong or that our examples are invalid.
Err... look again.
I'll give you a point there. I'm actually quite well aware of the fact that the legitimate history of that particular martial art is fairly recent. I'm also aware that even the most critical analysis of its history will reveal that it was developed from Karate, which in turn was developed from even older Chinese martial arts.
I only mentioned Taekwondo because it is the martial art I have had personal experience with, because it is what has been available. I have had friends who trained in other martial arts, and from what they tell me the basic differences between a modern western approach and traditional eastern approach hold true.
That when training gullible American students, old Asian instructors will blow smoke up your bum?
...
Yeah, it holds true most of the time.
Sure, though it's less about mind set and more about focus. As I said both martial and ki can care about both physical and spiritual discipline. The difference is in the order that they care about them and how much emphasis is put onto each.
However, what ki can do that martial can't is have characters who only care about ki. Spiritualists who have absolute mastery of ki and can channel it in even more fantastical ways, but who are otherwise frail. Sort of a ki wizard.
I'm fine with having characters that care only about Ki. But the vast majority of martial artist concepts aren't that. That's why I say the Monk doesn't fit. If you want to have the ki-based wizard concept, that's cool with me. I'm not sure how the doing-stuff-with-internal-energy-via-focus-and-discipline will be different than a Psion, but it could happen. Like I said, the Soulblade concept that was proposed was a good example.
And thank you for that. I didn't have to go to any effort to show just how goofy it was when the two concepts were divorced.
Are there hidden words in my posts that I keep missing? Because I am really starting to get confused by the replies that my posts are getting in this thread. There was nothing goofy about the concepts being divorced in YuYu Hakusho. It worked out quite well in the series. I hardly see where you got the idea they were "goofy" from.4ed D&D default fluff has it established that only sentient creatures have souls. Non-sentient living creatures only have a body and an animus.Really? I don't recall that ever bing the case. I know that most undead have no souls, but were was it ever stated that souls were unique to creatures that are both living and intelligent. It's not that I'm unwilling to believe you, I know your reputation to well, but I'd still like a source on that.
I'm not opposed to drawing from Eastern influences or even anime in particular, but can we at least try to maintain some appearance of the ki power source not going that far out into weeaboo territory?
Not sure how you don't follow.
Really? I don't recall that ever bing the case. I know that most undead have no souls, but were was it ever stated that souls were unique to creatures that are both living and intelligent. It's not that I'm unwilling to believe you, I know your reputation to well, but I'd still like a source on that.
+1. Doesn't ring a bell for me, either. I'd be particularly interested in the implication that animus != ki, because if they've flat-out made that distinction, then the WotC dev team is fumbling. In a big way.
That when training gullible American students, old Asian instructors will blow smoke up your bum?
Maybe it's just "smoke", but it's become very prevalent in popular media, even in media made in Asia for Asians. It's that kind of popular media that people want the ki power source to emulate.
Maybe it's just "smoke", but it's become very prevalent in popular media, even in media made in Asia for Asians. It's that kind of popular media that people want the ki power source to emulate.
Except how my very popular and influential examples of popular media illustrate that it's not that way at all?
Not sure how you don't follow.
"Weeaboo territory" has nothing to do with being goofy, so I hardly see what that quote has to do with my example being goofy.
Really? I don't recall that ever bing the case. I know that most undead have no souls, but were was it ever stated that souls were unique to creatures that are both living and intelligent. It's not that I'm unwilling to believe you, I know your reputation to well, but I'd still like a source on that.
Woot! I love having a reputation. Anyways for a source, let me see here. Ummm Open Grave doesn't say it outright, although you can get it from reading between the lines(the animus being the source of animalistic urges and the soul being the source of higher thinking). However it is specifically said in Worlds and Monsters(page 53).
Sentient creatures have an animus and a soul, while nonsentient ones just have an animus.
Except how my very popular and influential examples of popular media illustrate that it's not that way at all?
Again, maybe. I still think your examples have either been of martial with ki overtones or that you are simply choosing to interpret them that way, but that's just my opinion. However, what we are discussing is a matter of opinion. Even if it is only an opinion that popular media depicts ki and martial as different, it is an opinion that seems to be shared by enough people on these boards and WotC itself (based on monk and ki reference in PHB1) that it warrants attention and deserves to be an option.
If you don't want ki to be a separate power source, then house rule it away in your own games. Don't go stepping on what's fun for the rest of us.
Woot! I love having a reputation.
It pleases me to add to your happiness.
Anyways for a source, let me see here. Ummm Open Grave doesn't say it outright, although you can get it from reading between the lines(the animus being the source of animalistic urges and the soul being the source of higher thinking). However it is specifically said in Worlds and Monsters(page 53).
That would explain why I wasn't familiar with it. I only ever browsed a copy Worlds and Monsters, and even then only briefly. I never could justify to my self actually buying the 4E preview books.
Anyway, I can't say that I'm happy with it, I can't say I've ever been happy with the animus/body/soul approach. I prefer a trio of body/mind/soul, though I don't mind animus as a forth aspect. Not much I can do about it though other then to house rule it in my own campaigns. Not that such a mostly flavor oriented (and a mostly unseen piece of flavor) house rule will make much if any noticeable difference to my players.
Again, maybe. I still think your examples have either been of martial with ki overtones or that you are simply choosing to interpret them that way, but that's just my opinion. However, what we are discussing is a matter of opinion. Even if it is only an opinion that popular media depicts ki and martial as different, it is an opinion that seems to be shared by enough people on these boards and WotC itself (based on monk and ki reference in PHB1) that it warrants attention and deserves to be an option.
If you don't want ki to be a separate power source, then house rule it away in your own games. Don't go stepping on what's fun for the rest of us.
My examples are the ones most commonly used as examples of ki. I just pointed out how very closely related the concepts of Ki and Martial are. Not just in real world lore, because that goes without saying, but also in the very genres that the Ki power source is supposed to emulate. There's really not very much that makes anything ki-based conceptually distinct from Martial in the vast majority of related fiction. The Bleach-based Soulblade concept is based on something completely divorced from any real-world meaning of ki and is instead soul-based, but whatever. That's cool.
But if the Monk is Ki-based, well, why is that? What really makes them different from a Martial character? The answers are, of course, unknown right now. If the answer is too wildly outlandish, it will eliminate very many martial artist concepts that people, including me, would like the opportunity to play. It will even fill the conceptual space up, so that a class more appropriate to what I want will never be. If the answer isn't very significant at all, then why is it a different power source? Why is there a different power source, why did we need it, and how is it different from the already-existing focus-and-discipline-based power sources?
I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun. I just want some good, well-thought-out design.
you recognize that Ki is heavily inspired by certain archetypes (kung-fu, anime, video-games, and so on and so forth), thus those archetypes would be considered to have Ki power, within the reality of those archetypes Ki power is achieved through what most woould consider martial training and thus in those realities there is very little difference between Ki power and Martial power.
Also, if Ki was somehow differentiated from Martial training by making it more "doing-stuff-with-internal-energy-via-focus-and-discipline", thus making a Ki class no more Martial than a Swordmage is, then Ki would be too similar to Psionics.
Correct?
If so, I could see how one might feel that way, it's a valid point.
I just want to make sure I understand something about what you're saying;
you recognize that Ki is heavily inspired by certain archetypes (kung-fu, anime, video-games, and so on and so forth), thus those archetypes would be considered to have Ki power, within the reality of those archetypes Ki power is achieved through what most woould consider martial training and thus in those realities there is very little difference between Ki power and Martial power.
Also, if Ki was somehow differentiated from Martial training by making it more "doing-stuff-with-internal-energy-via-focus-and-discipline", thus making a Ki class no more Martial than a Swordmage is, then Ki would be too similar to Psionics.
Correct?
If so, I could see how one might feel that way, it's a valid point.
This is exactly my point.
and is what we will come up with what we want for Ki?
So what we really need to figure out is not what is the difference between Ki and Martial, but what is the difference between Ki and Psionics and Primal?
and is what we will come up with what we want for Ki?
Tricky question, really.
A Martial character trains his body with athletic and acrobatic feats to push the bondarys of what the mortal body can do.
A Ki character attunes with their soul, through meditation and trances, to manipulate it and suffuse their flesh with it's power.
A Psionic character focuses their mind, through concentration and focuses, to open their inner eye and truely put mind over matter.
I maintain that Martial, Ki, and Psionic are all related, and similar, but represent the Body, the Soul, and the Mind as different sources of power.
A Martial character trains his body with athletic and acrobatic feats to push the bondarys of what the mortal body can do.
A Ki character attunes with their soul, through meditation and trances, to manipulate it and suffuse their flesh with it's power.
A Psionic character focuses their mind, through concentration and focuses, to open their inner eye and truely put mind over matter.
But what about those concepts that will apparently be Ki-based that gained power through physical training, rather than any form of meditation or trance? What distinguishes between the Ki-based character's meditation and trances and the Psion's concentration?
How do you have non-spiritual martial artists using a Ki-based class? Races and Classes suggested that the Monk would represent a wider variety of martial artist than just the spiritual. Are those players who want such characters out of luck?
How do you justify defining a concept that has always been rooted in the physical body and developed with physical training as something that simply uses the body as a conduit?
Psionics had the Soulknife but they say Ki is the power of the soul, Yet the Primal Shamans can summon the spirits of warriors, are those the spirits of the dead because that sounds like Shadow power, and Shadow power can produce Illusions and Necromancy, yet Wizards do alot of Illusions and Divine classes have effects on the undead as well, Warlocks get their powers from devils who are Immortals like gods and Feylocks get their power from nature spirits similar to Barbarian who's a side-step away from Ranger that can form a bond with a animal but is not Primal, and almost all of them can make Elemental attacks.
But if the Monk is Ki-based, well, why is that? What really makes them different from a Martial character? The answers are, of course, unknown right now. If the answer is too wildly outlandish, it will eliminate very many martial artist concepts that people, including me, would like the opportunity to play. It will even fill the conceptual space up, so that a class more appropriate to what I want will never be. If the answer isn't very significant at all, then why is it a different power source? Why is there a different power source, why did we need it, and how is it different from the already-existing focus-and-discipline-based power sources?
I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun. I just want some good, well-thought-out design.
Well if you don't mind me putting forth my personal views on the matter, and therefore hardly anything official, I'll give you at least one way to look at it. For starters, I should put forth my views on the martial, psionic, and ki power sources as this will somewhat key in my explanation.
Martial power is utilizing the full extent of your physical body's capabilities. You might perform some feats which seem to go beyond what is possible, but that is only because you are utilizing levels of your body that go completely unknown to most people.
Psionics is modifying your surrounding without the use of any external energy sources(arcane, primal, divine, shadow, or elemental energies).
Ki is modifying yourself through the use of your soul.
As an example of this distinction, compare these quick examples of a person from each of the three sources who performs a power to give themselves resist all 5(note these are entirely made up and were done so quickly so my apologies if they aren't the cleanest examples).
The martial character would focus his senses on the area around him so that he can see an attack coming and instinctively moves to parry the blow before he can process it.
The psionic character focuses his mind on the area around him to make airflow more difficult, effectively wrapping himself in a cushion softening any blows made against him.
The ki character focuses on his body making his skin temporarily stronger, thereby making any blows that hit him injure him less.
Now that I have, hopefully, made the distinction clear, onto why the monk should be ki.
The simple reason is that the monk is in a fantasy world and he fights bare fisted. Consider what that means for a moment. The monk is the character who would be punching creatures made entirely of fire with his bare fists. He would be punching creatures made entirely of metal or rock. He might even be punching creatures that are constantly releasing some kind of acid from their pores(not that I can think of any off hand, but I'm sure there is at least one creature that is supposed to be covered in something acidic in the MM).
Put simply, continuously hitting these creatures over and over again would not be good for the body. Unlike the other martial classes, his weapons(his fists) wouldn't be protected by any kind of magic. If we were to assume that the monk is simply able to withstand the force, temperature, acids, or any other kind of pain they should be recieving from making their attacks due to their martial training then it raises creates problems with consistency as they would take damage from exact same source on the monster's turn. Ki gives a consistant explanation for these problems. The monk doesn't injure himself when he attacks because he focuses his ki to strengthen his body at the points of contact. He still takes damage from those sources when the monster attacks because he can't focus his ki over his entire body to block every attack they make.
At least that is how I look at. No idea if that helps you at all. *shrugs*
The other bits don't really address the issues I've raised at all. It presents one very specific, very odd way to approach a melee Ki character that doesn't match very many martial artist characters I know of. In fact, it also presents one very specific Martial concept and one very specific Psionic concept, which perhaps illustrates why it's hard to create a general approach that is entirely distinct from the other power sources.
Instead of defining what Ki or Psionic or etc. are, we should try to define the known. Define what a Martial, Arcane, Divine and Primal source and how they are the same and/or different from one another. If we can see patterns in these sources, we might be able to see the pattern in the Ki (or whatever) source.
Thoughts or suggestions? Or does this need to go elsewhere?
This is a fantasy game. People do not-realistically-viable things all the time. Punching stuff that probably shouldn't be punched doesn't require a special power source.
I don't agree with that.
I also don't see why a person couldn't make a Monk who has just spent all their time training their body(which for some people is a form of meditation) and does not realize they have been building up Ki power within themselves, thus they're are able to punch through steel without ever learning about Ki, much like how a Sorcerer could have never bothered with learning arcana.
I don't agree with that.
I also don't see why a person couldn't make a Monk who has just spent all their time training their body(which for some people is a form of meditation) and does not realize they have been building up Ki power within themselves, thus they're are able to punch through steel without ever learning about Ki, much like how a Sorcerer could have never bothered with learning arcana.
Problem is, there's people who spend a lot of their time training their body already. See the Player's Handbook. They're capable of accomplishing some pretty crazy feats too. And, if the definition of 'ki' is anything at all like the classic definition, they're using their ki when they do so. So what makes characters with classes using the Ki power source so different?
But what about those concepts that will apparently be Ki-based that gained power through physical training, rather than any form of meditation or trance? What distinguishes between the Ki-based character's meditation and trances and the Psion's concentration?
Because of fluff.
Most of power sources is fluff. A wizard tosses a fireball, a cleric calls forth a flaming sword, and a barbarian calls forth the rage of a fire drake. There are differenses between them, yes... because WotC MADE there be differences, based on fluff.
Martial seems most defined by it's limitations. You will never see a martial flight power, for instance.
Neither Psionic nor Ki have been revealed, but in general, an easy way to create a difference is to have Ki mostly affect the self, like the old biofeedback Psionics, whereas the new Psionic takes mental influence as it's defining trait, manipulating others in ways the Wizard is no longer capable of. (though the Bard might have similar effects)
Problem is, there's people who spend a lot of their time training their body already. See the Player's Handbook. They're capable of accomplishing some pretty crazy feats too. And, if the definition of 'ki' is anything at all like the classic definition, they're using their ki when they do so. So what makes characters with classes using the Ki power source so different?
Because martial characters don't use the power of the soul. The Player's Handbook makes this pretty clear.
Because of fluff.
Most of power sources is fluff. A wizard tosses a fireball, a cleric calls forth a flaming sword, and a barbarian calls forth the rage of a fire drake. There are differenses between them, yes... because WotC MADE there be differences, based on fluff.
Martial seems most defined by it's limitations. You will never see a martial flight power, for instance.
Neither Psionic nor Ki have been revealed, but in general, an easy way to create a difference is to have Ki mostly affect the self, like the old biofeedback Psionics, whereas the new Psionic takes mental influence as it's defining trait, manipulating others in ways the Wizard is no longer capable of. (though the Bard might have similar effects)
"Because that's how it is!" is a singularly unhelpful contribution to the discussion. "Because Martial is mundane!" has also been picked over far too well over the last year+.
Because martial characters don't use the power of the soul. The Player's Handbook makes this pretty clear.
Funny. The Kensei PP is a pretty good indication otherwise.
Problem is, there's people who spend a lot of their time training their body already. See the Player's Handbook. They're capable of accomplishing some pretty crazy feats too. And, if the definition of 'ki' is anything at all like the classic definition, they're using their ki when they do so. So what makes characters with classes using the Ki power source so different?
If the "classic definition" of Ki means a Rogue is using Ki, then I can tell you WotC will not be using that definition. Ki may not be a new concept but power sources are.
This is a fantasy game. People do not-realistically-viable things all the time. Punching stuff that probably shouldn't be punched doesn't require a special power source.
The other bits don't really address the issues I've raised at all. It presents one very specific, very odd way to approach a melee Ki character that doesn't match very many martial artist characters I know of. In fact, it also presents one very specific Martial concept and one very specific Psionic concept, which perhaps illustrates why it's hard to create a general approach that is entirely distinct from the other power sources.
I'm really starting to get the feeling that your complaint isn't with the Ki power source but with powers sources in general....
And it isn't just about being realistic, it is also about consistency. Being able to punch a fire elemental without injuring yourself with no protection consistently, but still being injured by the fire elemental's attacks doesn't really make too much sense if your resilence to the fire is due to simply training your body.
Out of curiosity though, how many martial arts characters(actually make that bare fisted warriors since technically the fighter, rogue, ranger, warlord, barbarian, swordmage, and several other classes qualify as martial artists) do you know who frequently beat golems made entirely out of iron or fire elementals using only their ability to hit things? I'm betting the number isn't very high.
Problem is, there's people who spend a lot of their time training their body already. See the Player's Handbook. They're capable of accomplishing some pretty crazy feats too. And, if the definition of 'ki' is anything at all like the classic definition, they're using their ki when they do so. So what makes characters with classes using the Ki power source so different?
Well then the definition of Ki isn't the classic one then, because they are not using Ki. At least not to the degree that the ki classes will.
Funny. The Kensei PP is a pretty good indication otherwise.
Funny the Kensei PP doesn't make any mention of using the person's soul or ki. It is simply a PP for someone who sees their weapon as an extention of their body rather than a seperate object. And besides that, PP are not limited by power source. The Shadow Captain PP is the perfect example of this.
If the "classic definition" of Ki means a Rogue is using Ki, then I can tell you WotC will not be using that definition. Ki may not be a new concept but power sources are.
You, right now, are using ki. You're breathing, focusing your eyes, etc. The more physical stuff you're doing, the more you're using it. If WotC abandons the idea that ki = life, then they're destroying any connection between their version of Ki and any familiar concepts that people might want to play with Ki-based characters. If they don't, then they can't avoid the logical conclusion that people using their bodies are using Ki. It's a tricky little problem.
I'm really starting to get the feeling that your complaint isn't with the Ki power source but with powers sources in general....
I'm starting to get the feeling that you're just whining about my point of view because you can't deal with it. Funny, that.
And it isn't just about being realistic, it is also about consistency. Being able to punch a fire elemental without injuring yourself with no protection consistently, but still being injured by the fire elemental's attacks doesn't really make too much sense if your resilence to the fire is due to simply training your body.
Point me to the fire elementals that currently note that they do damage to people on an unarmed attack. Book and page number, please. Same thing for the armored, hard, or other monsters that do damage to people that hit them with an unarmed attacked.
Out of curiosity though, how many martial arts characters(actually make that bare fisted warriors since technically the fighter, rogue, ranger, warlord, barbarian, swordmage, and several other classes qualify as martial artists) do you know who frequently beat golems made entirely out of iron or fire elementals using only their ability to hit things? I'm betting the number isn't very high.
The number of martial artist characters who punch very hard things regularly is ridiculously high. It's just that there's no rules for breaking your hand on armored characters, or bodily deterioration because of repeated impact or other actions.
Well then the definition of Ki isn't the classic one then, because they are not using Ki. At least not to the degree that the ki classes will.
Clearly. But... see my last post.
Funny the Kensei PP doesn't make any mention of using the person's soul or ki. It is simply a PP for someone who sees their weapon as an extention of their body rather than a seperate object. And besides that, PP are not limited by power source. The Shadow Captain PP is the perfect example of this.
Weaponsoul Dance. Oh, and the obvious fluff, which was, I believe, one of the more recent tirades about how wrong I am.
No. Just freaking no. This is just outright false. Go as far East as you want, nobody thinks ki works like that. It's a part of the body's natural function. If you have a strong, healthy body, you have strong, healthy ki. Can't have one without the other. Training your ki is viewed - and practiced - much like muscle control exercises. Manipulating it in an opponent is similar to targeting joints and fragile bones. There just is no real significant difference to speak of.
In fiction, the characters with ki attacks tend to train in ways that are pretty much identical to what a Martial archetype character does. Ki manipulation is just a step in their progression. It's assumed that everyone, sooner or later, will learn to manipulate their ki as they progress in their physical training. That's how it works in Ranma 1/2. That's how it works in Dragon Ball. Even in Naruto, the difference isn't in Ki vs. not-Ki, but how the ki is used - see Rock Lee in the Chuunin Exam for an extreme example.
Why is training method significant? I've seen this mentioned a lot, but never saw a reason. Who cares that the Monk goes to the same gym as the Fighter, Paladin, Warden, and Swordmage?
I'm fine with having characters that care only about Ki. But the vast majority of martial artist concepts aren't that.
This I don't understand either. Yes, there are "ki-less" martial arts in the world. Krav Maga comes immediately to mind. But thats not the kind of martial art the Monk represents. Krav Maga use anything and everything. Its a killer's style. There is no Krav Maga master who wouldn't rather have a gun or even just a knife in his hands than nothing. Thats not what the Monk is.
Another martial art that jumps to mind as being "ki-less" is Brazillian Jujitsu. But thats not really a combat martial art. Thats, at best, a self-defense thing, but mostly its for competition. You also talked about Tae Kwon Do being more sport than martial art. I agree. However, I want to point out that these "martial arts as sport" guys are not going to be the ones punching Dragons in the face in D&D.
With the exception of the Gracie family, Chuck Norris (if he counts), and maybe Bruce Lee (but even he claimed his martial art was a philosophy metaphor), I can't think of any famous martial artists, real or fictional, that don't attribute their awesomeness to some type of mystical power.
If martial artists in real life claim that supernatural energy gives them their abilities, why can't that be actually correct in D&D?
It really seems to me that you're just upset because you want to play an unarmed fighter that doesn't use mystic power or anything else, and you think by making the Monk a ki class, you won't be able to do that. If this is the case, you could just use the altered Ranger they suggested. Or use the Monk class and ignore the fact that its got the Ki power source. Its not like power source actually does anything. There are less than a dozen mechanics in the whole game reliant on what power source you're from, so just change the flavor.
Why is training method significant? I've seen this mentioned a lot, but never saw a reason. Who cares that the Monk goes to the same gym as the Fighter, Paladin, Warden, and Swordmage?
The fact that this is where they get their power, in the way that the Fighter does, and the Paladin, Warden, and Swordmage do not.
This I don't understand either. Yes, there are "ki-less" martial arts in the world. Krav Maga comes immediately to mind. But thats not the kind of martial art the Monk represents. Krav Maga use anything and everything. Its a killer's style. There is no Krav Maga master who wouldn't rather have a gun or even just a knife in his hands than nothing. Thats not what the Monk is.
I'm not even concerned with the reality of weapons being superior to no-weapons. I'm talking about fictional martial artist archetypes. It was implied in Races and Classes that we would be able to play non-spiritual, non-monastic martial artists. I like that, and having the Monk be a Ki-based class rather than a Martial one seems to inhibit that.
With the exception of the Gracie family, Chuck Norris (if he counts), and maybe Bruce Lee (but even he claimed his martial art was a philosophy metaphor), I can't think of any famous martial artists, real or fictional, that don't attribute their awesomeness to some type of mystical power.
Read more. Watch or read more martial arts fiction, history, etc. Because this isn't an unusual thing at all.
If martial artists in real life claim that supernatural energy gives them their abilities, why can't that be actually correct in D&D?
Because of the abundance of martial artist archetypes that do not.
It really seems to me that you're just upset because you want to play an unarmed fighter that doesn't use mystic power or anything else, and you think by making the Monk a ki class, you won't be able to do that. If this is the case, you could just use the altered Ranger they suggested. Or use the Monk class and ignore the fact that its got the Ki power source. Its not like power source actually does anything. There are less than a dozen mechanics in the whole game reliant on what power source you're from, so just change the flavor.
Depends on what the Monk is like, doesn't it?
And I'm sure a Monk would tell a Rogue that they are using Ki as they speak to eachother. Yes Ki may be life, but if you had your way all the classes would be Ki, even a Wizard uses Ki but thats not where his power lies.
So what makes the Ki-based characters more ki-based than a Martial character? And how can a character that Ki-based represent the sort of martial artist that Races and Classes implies we can - the non-monastic, non-spiritual slugger?
It should either be what gives all living things their power or it shouldn't exist?
Either the Ranger can hadouken or nobody can?
The fact that this is where they get their power, in the way that the Fighter does, and the Paladin, Warden, and Swordmage do not.
So say you, but last time I check exercise and physical discipline are important to all of those classes. Or did I imagine that paladins use STR as one of their primary stats, swordmages use STR/CON as a secondary, and Wardens use STR as a primary and CON as a possible secondary?
I'm not even concerned with the reality of weapons being superior to no-weapons. I'm talking about fictional martial artist archetypes. It was implied in Races and Classes that we would be able to play non-spiritual, non-monastic martial artists. I like that, and having the Monk be a Ki-based class rather than a Martial one seems to inhibit that.
I will admit that I'm disappointed at that my self. I had really hoped that Martial Power would have feats related to unarmed/unarmored fighting. Still their are ways to approximate the concept.
The Belt of the Brawler (Adventures Vault) would have worked if WotC had made it a multi-level item with scaling enhancement bonus, but it's still an easy house rule. Since flavor is mutable, the claw attack granted by Feral Armor can work as a substitute. The biggest problem with either of those methods is that they are very specific magic items so they can't work at 1st level. What can work at 1st level is spiked gauntlets (especially for a tempest fighter), and again since flavor is mutable it only takes a minor approval from a DM to just treat ones fists as being statistically identical to spiked gauntlets and have the magic enhancement attached to your your wrist bands, arm bands, belt, or some such.
Depends on what the Monk is like, doesn't it?
I'd expect it to be much like the paladin, who with minimal effort can be entirely re-flavored as a martial oriented warrior who simply attributes his prowess in battle to his faith in a higher power.
So what makes the Ki-based characters more ki-based than a Martial character?
As I and others have tried to say, it's a mater of intentional focus on the part of the disciple. Do they train physically and gain spiritual discipline as a side-effect, or do they train spiritually and gain physical discipline as a side-effect. That might not be enough of a difference for you, but it seems to me that it would be for most of us.
So you think Ki should be all or nothing huh?
It should either be what gives all living things their power or it shouldn't exist?
Either the Ranger can hadouken or nobody can?
If they're going to use the word Ki and try to emulate a specific genre, then they're going to have to define it in a way somewhat similar to what that genre does. That means that everybody's got to have it. That means that people are using it all the time, usually subconsciously. The very concept is very, very closely related to the Martial concept. The line is fuzzy, at best, nonexistent most of the time.
One of the biggest problems is that the Monk appears to need to cover a very wide variety of archetypes, which rely on blatantly supernatural attacks in varying degrees - some of them not at all, in fact. We know that it is supposed to be a Ki class. Will Ki remain conceptually close to Martial, to accommodate the sorts of characters in question but raising the question of why it is separate in the first place? Or will it be more blatantly supernatural, and invalidate those character concepts completely?
One of the biggest problems is that the Monk appears to need to cover a very wide variety of archetypes, which rely on blatantly supernatural attacks in varying degrees - some of them not at all, in fact. We know that it is supposed to be a Ki class. Will Ki remain conceptually close to Martial, to accommodate the sorts of characters in question but raising the question of why it is separate in the first place? Or will it be more blatantly supernatural, and invalidate those character concepts completely?
I have a feeling it will be highly supernatual and that it will not invalidate non supernatural concepts because there is a power source for non-supernatural concepts.
So if you want a non mystical martial artist, play a fighter.
So say you, but last time I check exercise and physical discipline are important to all of those classes. Or did I imagine that paladins use STR as one of their primary stats, swordmages use STR/CON as a secondary, and Wardens use STR as a primary and CON as a possible secondary?
Attributes aren't powers. Martial artist-type characters gain their abilities in ways more like Martial characters than paladins (imbued by a god), swordmages (arcane learning), or wardens (drawing on primordial essences).
I will admit that I'm disappointed at that my self. I had really hoped that Martial Power would have feats related to unarmed/unarmored fighting. Still their are ways to approximate the concept.
The Belt of the Brawler (Adventures Vault) would have worked if WotC had made it a multi-level item with scaling enhancement bonus, but it's still an easy house rule. Since flavor is mutable, the claw attack granted by Feral Armor can work as a substitute. The biggest problem with either of those methods is that they are very specific magic items so they can't work at 1st level. What can work at 1st level is spiked gauntlets (especially for a tempest fighter), and again since flavor is mutable it only takes a minor approval from a DM to just treat ones fists as being statistically identical to spiked gauntlets and have the magic enhancement attached to your your wrist bands, arm bands, belt, or some such.
If they're going to create a martial artist class, why should we have to improvise one that is closer to our liking?
I'd expect it to be much like the paladin, who with minimal effort can be entirely re-flavored as a martial oriented warrior who simply attributes his prowess in battle to his faith in a higher power.
... Looking at the Paladin powers, I'd say that would be more than 'minimal effort'.
As I and others have tried to say, it's a mater of intentional focus on the part of the disciple. Do they train physically and gain spiritual discipline as a side-effect, or do they train spiritually and gain physical discipline as a side-effect. That might not be enough of a difference for you, but it seems to me that it would be for most of us.
Except that it doesn't make sense. The same training doesn't result in a super-skilled guy with no superhuman powers in one instance, and a guy with mystic powers in another. And the actual training is way too similar to produce such wildly different results.
The Monk multiclass feat is most likely going to make it so other classes can be martial artists.
I have a feeling it will be highly supernatual and that it will not invalidate non supernatural concepts because there is a power source for non-supernatural concepts.
So if you want a non mystical martial artist, play a fighter.
If they're going to create a martial artist class, why should we have to improvise one that is closer to our liking?
Better yet - why don't you play your mystic martial artist with a psionic class? Or an unarmed Swordmage?
I'm not even concerned with the reality of weapons being superior to no-weapons. I'm talking about fictional martial artist archetypes. It was implied in Races and Classes that we would be able to play non-spiritual, non-monastic martial artists. I like that, and having the Monk be a Ki-based class rather than a Martial one seems to inhibit that.
And given the fact that players can cherry pick their class powers, as well as at least one of their class features - I can almost guarantee that you can.
This is especially true once you consider that the (expected) Class Features, and At-Will powers will be relatively generic (WIS or CON to AC; Proficiency: Unarmed; Increased Damage Die [d6 feels right]; Flurry of Blows; Power Punch; Basic Kick; Basic Grapple; Sweep Kick; that kind of thing).
Hmm...
Do I want to take Ki Blast, Samoan Drop, or Stunning fist for my 1st level Encounter Power?
And do I want Kip Up, Wall Run, Deflect Arrows, or Sumo Stance for my 2nd level Utility?
Even if they based the monks powers off the most obvious/famous martial arts styles (Crane/Tiger/Snake/Monkey/Mantis Kung Fu, Karate, Boxing, Grapple/Wrestling styles, and Wuxia/Anime-jutsu*) they could easily fill a book with powers derived from thos sources alone.
As a result, I am almost positive that there will be enough juicy (and realistic) powers for your martial artist monk without ever needing to look at the powers available for those characters who would prefer to play a wuxia/anime-jutsu monk.
Nor do I see any reason to limit the options for those players who do want to play such monks just because you (and those like you) dont like the supernatural element.
Why should either option be the only option? With 4Es modular design, there is plenty of room for at least 4 separate monk archetypes (Martial Artist, Grapple Monk, Brawler Monk, Wuxia/Mystic Monk), let alone the Mixed Martial Artist who is a combination of several.
* Yes I know Anime-jutsu is not a word, and that I just made it up - but for the purposes of this discussion, it fits perfectly.
And given the fact that players can cherry pick their class powers, as well as at least one of their class features - I can almost guarantee that you can.
When you have the option of chosing At-Will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility powers - simply pick the least mystical of those powers...
"Do I want Ki Blast, Samoan Drop, or Stunning Fist?".
"Do I want Up the Walls, Kip Up, or Sumo Stance?"
At a guess, I only expect no more than one-third to half of the monks powers having a wuxia/anime feel, while the remaining half to two-thirds will be based (loosely) on real-world techniques.
Its not like the developer's couldnt fill 5+ PHBs with monk/martial artist powers alone, once you consider how many differences exist between each of the following (broad) fighting styles:
Kung Fu, Karate (and similar hard styles), Judo/Jujitsu (and similar soft styles), Boxing, Sumo, Professional and Cossack Wrestling, Kickboxing, Escrima, Military/Police Hand-to-Hand, Mixed Martial Arts, Wuxia, Anime-jutsu (yes I know I just made up this word but it fits), etc.
I hope. I very much hope you're right.
Better yet - why don't you play your mystic martial artist with a psionic class? Or an unarmed Swordmage?
If that's what I want to do, I will. what exactly would stop me?
If they're going to create a martial artist class, why should we have to improvise one that is closer to our liking?
I'm just trying to help you make your concept, you said you wanted a Martial martial artist so thats what I suggested.
If you are somehow arguing that there can't be a Ki Power Source because everything should use ki, then I will disagree with you completely. It should be possible to both explain the effects of all power sources as "manipulation of ki" and to have a unique Ki Power Source that is distinct from other power sources. The two ideas do not inherently contradict each other.
If nothing else, this kind of thing happens all the time in anime. You can see this take place in the anime series Inuyasha and Yu Yu Hakusho, which make notable distinctions between the abilities of humans, psychics, demons, and divine energy, but labels them all as subcategories and specific uses of ki and present archetypical inspirations for the Ki Power Source. The anime Bleach and Naruto do this much more explicitly, in which "ki" or "chakra" are the main currency of power, but the actual way that power is used can diverge radically. In Naruto, Naruto Uzumaki or Sasuke Uchiha's main techniques could be described as Arcane or Elemental, and Neji Hyuga's combat techniques would primarily be described as Ki, but both are described as requiring the same life energy of chakra in order to work.
In other words, there is a severe difference between having and developing something that can be called "ki", and specifically manipulating it in a way that would be called "Ki Power Source".
In other words, there is a severe difference between having and developing something that can be called "ki", and specifically manipulating it in a way that would be called "Ki Power Source".
That's not what he's after, he will just say that it would be the same as martial if that was the case.
Matty boy's Ki can not exist in D&D and make sense, therefore it will not exist.
I'm not even concerned with the reality of weapons being superior to no-weapons. I'm talking about fictional martial artist archetypes. It was implied in Races and Classes that we would be able to play non-spiritual, non-monastic martial artists. I like that, and having the Monk be a Ki-based class rather than a Martial one seems to inhibit that.
I don't see why it would inhibit that. No matter what monk comes out like, you could just say, "My monk is non-spiritual and non-monastic." What's the issue?
Read more. Watch or read more martial arts fiction, history, etc. Because this isn't an unusual thing at all.
Don't feel like maybe throwing me a bone and suggesting something? I've honestly never seen any kind of martial artist master who says all his power is just from physical conditioning. I'm not talking about UFC here. They're pansies compared to a D&D character.
All of the most recognized martial arts tropes involve Ki or some other kind of inner energy. Thats how we get archetypes like the old master in the first place.
Because of the abundance of martial artist archetypes that do not.
Care to list any examples? I'm not saying you're wrong, here, but you've not named one yet.
Depends on what the Monk is like, doesn't it?
No, not really. Nothing can resist reflavoring. I don't understand what you're expecting that will deny you your thing.
So what makes the Ki-based characters more ki-based than a Martial character? And how can a character that Ki-based represent the sort of martial artist that Races and Classes implies we can - the non-monastic, non-spiritual slugger?
By saying, "My monk is a non-monastic, non-spiritual slugger." I don't get the issue.
... Looking at the Paladin powers, I'd say that would be more than 'minimal effort'.
You must be looking at a different list then I am then. Excluding powers that have the radiant or implement keywords, most paladin powers seem like they could pass for fighter or warlord abilities. The main problem is that at the moment the paladin suffers from what might well be the smallest move pool of any class, but Divine Power should fix that nicely.
Again, I dread to actually respond to anything that MatthiasKaiser is arguing, but...
If you are somehow arguing that there can't be a Ki Power Source because everything should use ki, then I will disagree with you completely. It should be possible to both explain the effects of all power sources as "manipulation of ki" and to have a unique Ki Power Source that is distinct from other power sources. The two ideas do not inherently contradict each other.
If nothing else, this kind of thing happens all the time in anime. You can see this take place in the anime series Inuyasha and Yu Yu Hakusho, which make notable distinctions between the abilities of humans, psychics, demons, and divine energy, but labels them all as subcategories and specific uses of ki and present archetypical inspirations for the Ki Power Source. The anime Bleach and Naruto do this much more explicitly, in which "ki" or "chakra" are the main currency of power, but the actual way that power is used can diverge radically. In Naruto, Naruto Uzumaki or Sasuke Uchiha's main techniques could be described as Arcane or Elemental, and Neji Hyuga's combat techniques would primarily be described as Ki, but both are described as requiring the same life energy of chakra in order to work.
In other words, there is a severe difference between having and developing something that can be called "ki", and specifically manipulating it in a way that would be called "Ki Power Source".
Wow. You open with an insult, and then don't even disagree with me. I'm sort of disappointed. Did you even bother to read?
This is all very true. The issue is, 'ki' being in everything and used by every living thing subconsciously by definition, what differentiates a class using the Ki power source from someone using another power source? Define it with any sort of breadth, and you've encompassed all of Martial, and created some serious overlap with Psionics, and possibly several others as well. Define it too narrowly, and you've excluded many, many character archetypes that could've fit in otherwise.
That's not what he's after, he will just say that it would be the same as martial if that was the case.
Matty boy's Ki can not exist in D&D and make sense, therefore it will not exist.
How about you let me respond, instead of taking shots, eh?
You must be looking at a different list then I am then. Excluding powers that have the radiant or implement keywords, most paladin powers seem like they could pass for fighter or warlord abilities. The main problem is that at the moment the paladin suffers from what might well be the smallest move pool of any class, but Divine Power should fix that nicely.
Yeah, it should be easy to convert the powers, except most of them? Interesting.
I don't see why it would inhibit that. No matter what monk comes out like, you could just say, "My monk is non-spiritual and non-monastic." What's the issue?
A class and powers based on the idea that the power source is the soul might well result in an abundance of clearly supernatural abilities that could not be feasibly reflavored into something more physical in nature.
Don't feel like maybe throwing me a bone and suggesting something? I've honestly never seen any kind of martial artist master who says all his power is just from physical conditioning. I'm not talking about UFC here. They're pansies compared to a D&D character.
All of the most recognized martial arts tropes involve Ki or some other kind of inner energy. Thats how we get archetypes like the old master in the first place.
Never heard of Musashi, then? Wow. In fact, the idea that it's some spiritual force was pretty uncommon for most of history. It translates to 'breath' for a reason. That takes care of the historical angle - 'just about all of them.' The translated Shaolin scrolls I've got here next to me contain all sorts of stories about fearsome guys with no spiritual development and tons of physical power - and doesn't paint them as bad guys or even guys who trained badly.
My current favorite series, History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, is a highly technical, and yet high-powered and awesome martial arts focused series. Doesn't outright reject the idea of ki, but doesn't focus on it at all.
Another one, Baki, actually has ki masters doing crazy esoteric feats, but points out that such tricks are basically pointless, and they get their backsides handed to them in a big way.
Tons of Jet Li movies go into the methods of how he trains, and many of them don't mention ki or anything spiritual at all.
In Ranma 1/2, ki manipulation is an eventual consequence of physical training, not something focused on from the beginning - a rather common setup.
This is all very true. The issue is, 'ki' being in everything and used by every living thing subconsciously by definition, what differentiates a class using the Ki power source from someone using another power source? Define it with any sort of breadth, and you've encompassed all of Martial, and created some serious overlap with Psionics, and possibly several others as well. Define it too narrowly, and you've excluded many, many character archetypes that could've fit in otherwise.
All that is true in a setting which only has Ki as a power source. As I said most fictions only present a single source of power for supernatural abilities.
In a psionic only setting all supernatural abilities are psioninc. That guy who claims to be a wizard is actual taping his psychic abilities. He doesn't really need "magic" incantations or that wooden stick he keeps waving. They're just psychological crutches he uses only because he doesn't know better.
In an arcane only setting all supernatural abilities are arcane. That cult may claim the wield the power of the gods, but the truth is their are no gods and all their suposedly divine rituals are just their way of tapping the arcane forces of the universe.
In Ben 10: Alien Force all supernatural abilities are the result of have an alien as an ancestor or simply an example of the principle that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
That takes care of the historical angle - 'just about all of them.'
We've already cover that historically accurate ki classes would probably be martial, as we live in a world of science and not magic. D&D however is a world of high fantasy, the historical nature of ki in our world is no more important than the historical nature of arcane rituals or real world religions.
My current favorite series, History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, is a highly technical, and yet high-powered and awesome martial arts focused series. Doesn't outright reject the idea of ki, but doesn't focus on it at all.
Sounds more like martial with Chinese/Japanese flavoring.
Another one, Baki, actually has ki masters doing crazy esoteric feats, but points out that such tricks are basically pointless, and they get their backsides handed to them in a big way.
Sounds like a world were Martial > Ki. A rarity to be sure, as most fictions Supernatural > Mundane
Tons of Jet Li movies go into the methods of how he trains, and many of them don't mention ki or anything spiritual at all.
Again, sounds more like martial with Chinese/Japanese flavoring.
In Ranma 1/2, ki manipulation is an eventual consequence of physical training, not something focused on from the beginning - a rather common setup.
A clear example of Ki > Martial, and therefore requires greater discipline.
This is all very true. The issue is, 'ki' being in everything and used by every living thing subconsciously by definition, what differentiates a class using the Ki power source from someone using another power source? Define it with any sort of breadth, and you've encompassed all of Martial, and created some serious overlap with Psionics, and possibly several others as well. Define it too narrowly, and you've excluded many, many character archetypes that could've fit in otherwise.
Um, why can't you have Ki that only some people can really use? Initially, the Force was useably by anyone, and now we have filthy midi-chlorian crap that limits it to who can or can't become sensitive. The Force flows through every living thing, and yet, surprise, not everyone can utilize it as a tool.
Yeah, it should be easy to convert the powers, except most of them? Interesting.
I'm not really sure how you could fail to convert the vast majority of Strength based powers. They're weapon and strength based already. Reflavor it as non-radiant. Problem solved.
A class and powers based on the idea that the power source is the soul might well result in an abundance of clearly supernatural abilities that could not be feasibly reflavored into something more physical in nature.
I'm not really sure how, though. Unless every power is a ki blast or flight, you should be just fine. Especially when you're convinced awesome martial arts attacks and running across water and whatnot are all potentially martial anyway.
And I have to question why, here you're claiming that the powers can't be redescribed as martial, but elsewhere you've claimed the whole power source should be martial. Wha...??
Never heard of Musashi, then? Wow.
Musashi as in Miyomoto Musashi? The warrior-philosopher? The Buddhist? That heavily spiritual guy who happened to also be in a lot of duels? The guy that claimed you couldn't be a true warrior without mastering arts like painting, writing, tea, etc.?
That guy who's also not a martial artist, which is what I was specifically referring to?
The fact is, some type of mystical energy or principle is involved in most major martial arts. Be it Qi, Aiki/Hapki, Ju , Neijia, Budo, Zen, or whatever you want.
The very fact that you're reading something from Shaolin monks has to show you that historically, martial arts have always been tied to some type of religious or psuedo-religious (whatever Buddhism wants to call itself) practices. Its not until the past century or so that it was not the case. The notion that "Monk" is D&D's default term for a martial artist showcases the idea that its religious or at the very least spiritual.
My current favorite series, History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, is a highly technical, and yet high-powered and awesome martial arts focused series. Doesn't outright reject the idea of ki, but doesn't focus on it at all.
You don't have to focus on ki to include it. Thats like having a movie set in the wild west and not focusing on horses. You know horses are still there. Its implied by the material, and the only way you could see a Western and not assume horses is if said Western says, "By the way, there are no horses. They all died...somehow."
Tons of Jet Li movies go into the methods of how he trains, and many of them don't mention ki or anything spiritual at all.
Again, I'm not really sure how someone's training regimen makes a difference. A fighter needs strength. He lifts weights. A Paladin needs strength. He lifts weights. So, a monk that needs strength also lifts weights and this invalidates him from using the Ki source how?
In Ranma 1/2, ki manipulation is an eventual consequence of physical training, not something focused on from the beginning - a rather common setup.
Which, again, means what? A Paladin may train his body to be a perfect weapon, then one day get a call from god and go with it. I really don't get your point with this stuff, but I do want to understand.
All that is true in a setting which only has Ki as a power source. As I said most fictions only present a single source of power for supernatural abilities.
In a psionic only setting all supernatural abilities are psioninc. That guy who claims to be a wizard is actual taping his psychic abilities. He doesn't really need "magic" incantations or that wooden stick he keeps waving. They're just psychological crutches he uses only because he doesn't know better.
In an arcane only setting all supernatural abilities are arcane. That cult may claim the wield the power of the gods, but the truth is their are no gods and all their suposedly divine rituals are just their way of tapping the arcane forces of the universe.
In Ben 10: Alien Force all supernatural abilities are the result of have an alien as an ancestor or simply an example of the principle that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
In our language, the word 'divine' is linked to gods. When defining the 'divine' power source in D&D, they did not choose to make it mean 'power derived from squeezing rocks until pink dust comes out, and then licking up the dust.' It's just not the same. If you want to emulate certain genres with the Ki power source, then it needs to be the same thing it is in that genre.
We've already cover that historically accurate ki classes would probably be martial, as we live in a world of science and not magic. D&D however is a world of high fantasy, the historical nature of ki in our world is no more important than the historical nature of arcane rituals or real world religions.
He asked me who, apart from modern MMA guys, believed that the power in martial arts was not derived from ki. I answered. If I answer a question somebody asked me, don't come back and tell me it's useless.
Sounds more like martial with Chinese/Japanese flavoring.
Someone earlier told me that the point of a Ki power source was to emulate a genre. If you're trying to argue that a Ki power source isn't necessary to emulate that genre, I'm not going to refute it.
Sounds like a world were Martial > Ki. A rarity to be sure, as most fictions Supernatural > Mundane
See above about questions and answers.
A clear example of Ki > Martial, and therefore requires greater discipline.
No. It's an example of Martial = Ki. They are the same thing in that series. Ki manipulation was just the next step in the characters' training. And not the final step, either.
Um, why can't you have Ki that only some people can really use? Initially, the Force was useably by anyone, and now we have filthy midi-chlorian crap that limits it to who can or can't become sensitive. The Force flows through every living thing, and yet, surprise, not everyone can utilize it as a tool.
Yeah, because that was so well-received.
I'm not really sure how you could fail to convert the vast majority of Strength based powers. They're weapon and strength based already. Reflavor it as non-radiant. Problem solved.
Strength-based powers are already minimal for the class, to the point of being absent at times. And there are few plausible ways to reflavor certain of the effects of those powers to make them possible with a sword.
I'm not really sure how, though. Unless every power is a ki blast or flight, you should be just fine. Especially when you're convinced awesome martial arts attacks and running across water and whatnot are all potentially martial anyway.
And I have to question why, here you're claiming that the powers can't be redescribed as martial, but elsewhere you've claimed the whole power source should be martial. Wha...??
Martial or Psionic. Wow, pay attention.
Musashi as in Miyomoto Musashi? The warrior-philosopher? The Buddhist? That heavily spiritual guy who happened to also be in a lot of duels? The guy that claimed you couldn't be a true warrior without mastering arts like painting, writing, tea, etc.?
That guy who's also not a martial artist, which is what I was specifically referring to?
First, he is definitively a martial artist. He didn't typically fight unarmed, but so what?
Second, yes, him. He didn't believe in ki as a spiritual force.
The fact is, some type of mystical energy or principle is involved in most major martial arts. Be it Qi, Aiki/Hapki, Ju , Neijia, Budo, Zen, or whatever you want.
So... Aiki? Ju? So, basic physics is a mystical force? The most mystical thing about any of these is that you have to stay healthy, alert, and calm.
The very fact that you're reading something from Shaolin monks has to show you that historically, martial arts have always been tied to some type of religious or psuedo-religious (whatever Buddhism wants to call itself) practices. Its not until the past century or so that it was not the case. The notion that "Monk" is D&D's default term for a martial artist showcases the idea that its religious or at the very least spiritual.
The term "monk" is a poor fit, ascribed by European visitors who really didn't get it. Very, very early in my research, it became clear that study in the Shaolin Temple on many, many subjects was not tied at all to the pseudo-religious element.
You don't have to focus on ki to include it. Thats like having a movie set in the wild west and not focusing on horses. You know horses are still there. Its implied by the material, and the only way you could see a Western and not assume horses is if said Western says, "By the way, there are no horses. They all died...somehow."
And to say 'there is no ki', they'd have to say 'everybody died.' But it focuses intensely on the character's training and fighting, and ki is really irrelevant.
Again, I'm not really sure how someone's training regimen makes a difference. A fighter needs strength. He lifts weights. A Paladin needs strength. He lifts weights. So, a monk that needs strength also lifts weights and this invalidates him from using the Ki source how?
The same reason it invalidates a Fighter from using the Ki power source. Or the Arcane power source, for that matter.
Which, again, means what? A Paladin may train his body to be a perfect weapon, then one day get a call from god and go with it. I really don't get your point with this stuff, but I do want to understand.
Which is odd, because you're not asking questions that suggest you want to understand. You're asking questions that are really, really reaching in an effort to discredit what I'm saying.
Much earlier in this thread, it was claimed that Ki could be the dumping ground of the oriental classes, and why that should not be. I would like to revisit my own thoughts on the matter: Ki isn't the oriental source, Elemental is.
All the mystical abilities of Samurai and Ninjas, seen from the right direction, are elemental attacks. The windslash of the mystical samurai, the flying (literally) ninja... All the effects that are not blatantly martial easilly fit the Elemetal power source.
If you want to emulate certain genres with the Ki power source, then it needs to be the same thing it is in that genre.
Who says?
How would you even go about matching it up to everything in the genre if it's not always the same thing?
The term "monk" is a poor fit, ascribed by European visitors who really didn't get it. Very, very early in my research, it became clear that study in the Shaolin Temple on many, many subjects was not tied at all to the pseudo-religious element.
No, it's a perfect fit. because they're spiritual and because that is the name that they have been called for some time now.
What you are talking about is a different class, from a different source within a different setting from a different game.
In our language, the word 'divine' is linked to gods. When defining the 'divine' power source in D&D, they did not choose to make it mean 'power derived from squeezing rocks until pink dust comes out, and then licking up the dust.' It's just not the same. If you want to emulate certain genres with the Ki power source, then it needs to be the same thing it is in that genre.
Exactly, and the genre most of us seem to want ki to emulated is mystical martial arts. We've already got martial for the more mundane/realistic stuff, even if the options for unarmed/unarmored are limiting at this time.
Someone earlier told me that the point of a Ki power source was to emulate a genre. If you're trying to argue that a Ki power source isn't necessary to emulate that genre, I'm not going to refute it.
If Ki is not the focus of, or even important to, the series then it's probably an example of D&D Martial not D&D Ki.
Strength-based powers are already minimal for the class, to the point of being absent at times. And there are few plausible ways to reflavor certain of the effects of those powers to make them possible with a sword.
Yes, which is why I acknowledged the paladin's limited power selection at present, though hopefully (Divine Power) not the future. It is also why I specifically excluded powers with the radiant and/or implement keywords, that way they all use a "sword".
The term "monk" is a poor fit, ascribed by European visitors who really didn't get it. Very, very early in my research, it became clear that study in the Shaolin Temple on many, many subjects was not tied at all to the pseudo-religious element.
Fine. In our real world the term monk is a misnomer, however, in the world of D&D it refers not to those historical figures, but to the fantastical figures of popular fiction who are loosely based on those historical (even if they're based on misconceptions).
Yeah, because that was so well-received.
It doesn't have to be well received to be true. I hated it, but its a perfect parallel.
Strength-based powers are already minimal for the class, to the point of being absent at times. And there are few plausible ways to reflavor certain of the effects of those powers to make them possible with a sword.
What powers are you talking about? I'm seeing extra damage, marking, pushing, prone...nothing fighters don't also do.
The 9th level is an issue. Oh well. One power is not that big of an obstacle when you're reflavoring.
How did we get on this Paladin thing anyway? I don't care about this.
So... Aiki? Ju? So, basic physics is a mystical force?
Yes, when you don't know physics, it is mystical. This is the real world, you know, so we are talking about people's beliefs, not realities. Besides that, the very presence of a philosophical/spiritual principle backing your combat skills shows an important difference.
The term "monk" is a poor fit, ascribed by European visitors who really didn't get it. Very, very early in my research, it became clear that study in the Shaolin Temple on many, many subjects was not tied at all to the pseudo-religious element.
Sure, and learning how to read and write from a Catholic monastery in Europe means that the monks weren't religious either.
The same reason it invalidates a Fighter from using the Ki power source. Or the Arcane power source, for that matter.
The class description that says "Power Source: Martial"?
No, seriously, I don't think training determines power source. I really don't see any connection whatsoever. You can even be a level 9, well, anything, and never have trained a day in your life. Its all irrelevant.
Which is odd, because you're not asking questions that suggest you want to understand. You're asking questions that are really, really reaching in an effort to discredit what I'm saying.
Actually, I'm just seeing how you respond so I can get a read on you, which facilitates understanding. You seem rather hostile towards it so far.
I did ask about your motivation earlier, and I got an unclear answer.
You are interested in playing a non-spiritual, non-monastic martial arts character, correct?
You object to Monk being Ki because you think being from the Ki power source will mean they can't be non-spiritual and non-monastic, correct?
What I don't understand is how this concern leads to the idea that Ki shouldn't exist at all. Is that even one of your positions? What exactly are your positions?
Ki isn't the oriental source, Elemental is.
All the mystical abilities of Samurai and Ninjas, seen from the right direction, are elemental attacks. The windslash of the mystical samurai, the flying (literally) ninja... All the effects that are not blatantly martial easilly fit the Elemetal power source.
This only works if you assume the Elemental power source actually deals with classic Western elemental powers.
Its my contention that Elemental will be for primordials what Divine is for gods. I'd imagine a heavy dose of Chaos in the classes, and honestly, not much air/earth/fire/water at all.
What I don't understand is how this concern leads to the idea that Ki shouldn't exist at all. Is that even one of your positions? What exactly are your positions?
He believes that D&D Ki is just gaining Psionic powers from Martial training, which would not make sense if that were the case.
I don't normally answer other people questions, but I'm much less abrasive about it than he is, and I think it helps everyone out a litttle bit.
No, it's a perfect fit. because they're spiritual and because that is the name that they have been called for some time now.
Yeah, I still have a soft spot for my Grand Master of Flowers!
Wow. You open with an insult, and then don't even disagree with me. I'm sort of disappointed. Did you even bother to read?
This is all very true. The issue is, 'ki' being in everything and used by every living thing subconsciously by definition, what differentiates a class using the Ki power source from someone using another power source? Define it with any sort of breadth, and you've encompassed all of Martial, and created some serious overlap with Psionics, and possibly several others as well. Define it too narrowly, and you've excluded many, many character archetypes that could've fit in otherwise.
If you think I was agreeing with you, then you obviously missed my point completely. Actually, I think I may have just found the very root of your problem with comprehending some of the thoughts that other people are having with this thread...
I suppose it may be my fault, though... After all, differentiating "ki" from "Ki" was perhaps a bad word choice. You see, my entire post was about making a significant distinction between "ki, the living energy that flows through all things and as such has some influence on all Power Sources", and "Ki, the specific Power Source that are distinguished by making use of ki in a particular manner". The former, linked to the real-world theory of ki, can be very broadly defined and freely given to all Power Sources. The latter, which is more closely related to Hong Kong action flicks and Japanese anime, can be very narrowly defined and specific. Arguments about the proper definition of the former have no relevance on the latter (after all, they are separate concepts), yet you persist in doing so over and over in this thread, and thus you get nowhere and annoy a lot of people.
To explain this another way... All Martial characters get power from physical effort and training, but not all characters that get power from physical effort and training are Martial. Similarly, all Ki Power Source characters get power from the form of spiritual energy called ki, but not all characters that get power from the spiritual energy called ki are Ki Power Source.
The Ki Power Source can be, or rather will be defined more specifically than "the people who use the spiritual energy called ki", even if that definition is an implicit one. As such, the breadth of the spiritual energy called ki has no relevance upon the uniqueness and worthiness of the Ki Power Source.
As MatthiasKaiser is obviously a living example of trying to win an argument on the internet, I propose a subject change.
Much earlier in this thread, it was claimed that Ki could be the dumping ground of the oriental classes, and why that should not be. I would like to revisit my own thoughts on the matter: Ki isn't the oriental source, Elemental is.
All the mystical abilities of Samurai and Ninjas, seen from the right direction, are elemental attacks. The windslash of the mystical samurai, the flying (literally) ninja... All the effects that are not blatantly martial easilly fit the Elemetal power source.
I continue to agree that the Ninja should be Elemental, but I pretty much disagree with everything else you are saying.
There should be no dumping ground of the oriental classes, and I sincerely doubt that there is going to be one. Some have already fit into Martial, many clearly will fit into Ki, and I fully expect many will fit into Elemental as well.
Besides, I always preferred the "energy slash" version of ranged sword attacks over the "wind/vacuum blade slash" version. So, whatever class has that move should be Ki, not Elemental.
Hopefullly DDi or PHB 2 will provide some kind of useful info on the remaining 4 power sources.
Bel
I continue to agree that the Ninja should be Elemental
I could also see it as Shadow or Ki (Ki also has a bit of the legacy issue).
…Or a Paragon Path.
The thing is; there are so many interpretations of the Ninja (and Samurai).
I'm so glad I didn't read any other pages on this topic.
Or a Martial controller...
If you say the words: alchemist, saboteur, trapper or dragoon, I will definitely throw up in my mouth a bit.
As MatthiasKaiser is obviously a living example of trying to win an argument on the internet, I propose a subject change.
Much earlier in this thread, it was claimed that Ki could be the dumping ground of the oriental classes, and why that should not be. I would like to revisit my own thoughts on the matter: Ki isn't the oriental source, Elemental is.
All the mystical abilities of Samurai and Ninjas, seen from the right direction, are elemental attacks. The windslash of the mystical samurai, the flying (literally) ninja... All the effects that are not blatantly martial easilly fit the Elemetal power source.
I can't agree with the samurai fitting under the elemental power source at all. I just don't see any precedent for it. I mean they might have one or two techniques that fit as elemental, but on a whole that is really nothing like how I see them.
Ninjas I can see as being elemental if you just focus on the mystical ninja. However, I think that they fit better by combining the assassin style ninja with mystical ninja and putting it under shadow.
All that aside, there shouldn't be an "oriental" power source, so I hardly think that is something we should be aspiring to find.
If you say the words: alchemist, saboteur, trapper or dragoon, I will definitely throw up in my mouth a bit.
Where did the last one come from? Surely they'd be Dragon Powered or something? I can't imagine Jumping on people with a spear has much to do with control on its own.
If you say the words: alchemist, saboteur, trapper or dragoon, I will definitely throw up in my mouth a bit.
What does a guy riding on a horse who uses firearms have to do with being a controller? That's what a dragoon is. Mounted infantry. Nothing to do with Final Fantasy or jumping around at all.
What does a guy riding on a horse who uses firearms have to do with being a controller? That's what a dragoon is. Mounted infantry.
Exactly, but just check out some of the wacky ideas floating around for Martial Controllers.
Wow, 13 pages and still flogging a horse shaped blood stain.
Hopefullly DDi or PHB 2 will provide some kind of useful info on the remaining 4 power sources.
Bel
[/thread]
Hell, we're not even talking about the same topic anymore.
What does a guy riding on a horse who uses firearms have to do with being a controller? That's what a dragoon is. Mounted infantry. Nothing to do with Final Fantasy or jumping around at all.
Surely if FF makes an Iconic Character and class called a Dragoon, its no less of a Dragoon than anything.
The FF Dragoon is a naff idea for a Controller, the RW definition of a Dragoon has some potential.
A polearm fighter-type, Strength/Wis, who gets close burst weapon attacks and secondary target Rattling attacks, working similar to some of the arena fighting feats.
An archer-type, Dex/Wis, who threatens large areas, does covering fire, warning shots, disruptive shots, and generally makes life painful for people who don't obey his control of the battlefield
And a Dervish, built to be both Str/Dex and Dex/Str (thus solving the real problem with Star Pact warlocks) and are highly mobility based, armed with light blades, and shifting several squares after every close burst or multi-target attack. This build gets the "Blood Pulse" type line powers, dancing through the foes and inflicting status effects left and right.
If the Samurai is made into a class it will most likely be a Ki Defender, although I would make it a Ki PP for either Monk or Fighter.
But all in all, in Matty boy's defense, they could've just never bothered with Ki and just integrated it's concepts into Psionics, making the Monk a Psionic class, which to me does not sound all that bad.
Personally, I see a Martial controller having 3 very different builds, with some overlapping powers:
A polearm fighter-type, Strength/Wis, who gets close burst weapon attacks and secondary target Rattling attacks, working similar to some of the arena fighting feats.
An archer-type, Dex/Wis, who threatens large areas, does covering fire, warning shots, disruptive shots, and generally makes life painful for people who don't obey his control of the battlefield
And a Dervish, built to be both Str/Dex and Dex/Str (thus solving the real problem with Star Pact warlocks) and are highly mobility based, armed with light blades, and shifting several squares after every close burst or multi-target attack. This build gets the "Blood Pulse" type line powers, dancing through the foes and inflicting status effects left and right.
For a moment there I thought you were kidding and talking about the polearm fighter, the archer ranger, and the stormwarden.
For a moment there I thought you were kidding and talking about the polearm fighter, the archer ranger, and the stormwarden.
Harder to argue "That's not Martial!" if there's already classes that do it... I'm mostly taking other classes powers and tweaking them for less damage and even more control. At-will "1, 2,or 3 target" ranged attack, or a close burst weapon that, if you are wielding a light blade, you can shift your Dex after using.
...Although, I may need to redo this class a bit, because the Spike Chain multiclass starts becoming entirely too effective at the "shared" powers of the polearm and dervish builds. (becoming a reach light blade)
If the monk is and remains a Ki Striker, this is what we would expect:
The monk would be able to commit great damage to a single target, while being able to move around the field of battle in a way to avoid the attacks of other targets while focusing on it's main foe. All of this powered by Ki.
What could be with the monk:
1) Damage Type: I can see the argument for Posion (damaging hp over time do to Ki energies incompatible with the enemy body), Necromantic (Ki causing the body to damage or even rot from within), Force (invisible energy of Ki pushing things around) and some elemental attacks (like the indo-japanese elements of Fire/Water/Earth/Air or chinese elements of Wood/Metal/Water/Fire/Earth).
2) Effect could include Charm as the Ki influences the mind by the body, Fear from things like battle aura size and shape, illusion like the classic multiple after images trick, Reliable (the ability to keep a power unused when it misses) due to the trick of a martial artist being able to slow down his sense of time or use his hightened sense to know if a strike will miss, or especially stances ( Last until end of encounter, for five minutes or when another stance is used) as this might link with the idea of martial arts stances or katas.
3) Battlefield manipulation would likely involve the tradition of monks being able to move with better adaptability then a normal fighter. Like running up walls (utility power), jumping so far and high as if to mimic flying (could be an encounter/daily more likely the later or utility), or sudden bonuses to speed. another is the push/pull aspects of powers.
The former is easy to see the powerful thrust of Ki pushing a foe or foes away (like a powerful punch which forces the opponent's own ki to push every away from the target to leave them to deal with the monk's combat fist fury. The latter could be seen as a invisible energy version of Scorpion's harpoon from Mortal Kombat, lashing out at the victim and dragging them to a point of the monk's choosing. Or a version of Miroku's Wind Tunnel from InuYasha, with less fatal results for the user.
A monk should be basically a heavy damage figure who can control the location of himself and some others on the battlefield, likely gaining a power up if attacking a single target repeatedly then multiple targets one after the other.
Thoughts?
That's why everyone has Ki but not all use it as theyre power source.
Seems kind of logical to me.
Everyone could learn to channel the Ki they have but not all want to or know how to do it.
How does one go about doing that? how does a Monk train this skill of channeling Ki? Is it spiritual training or physical training? how would it physical training be different from a Martial character's physical training? How would it's spiritual training be different from a Psionic character's mental training?
How would it's spiritual training be different from a Psionic character's mental training?
As an atheist, I feel that there is no realworld reference here, because there does not exist anything we could consider "Spiritual training." However, in a fantasy setting where "souls" are real, the difference between training your soul and training your mind are just as different as training your body is.
How does one go about doing that? how does a Monk train this skill of channeling Ki? Is it spiritual training or physical training?
The easy answer is whichever the player feels better fits his character.:P
I don't see why there is even a need for Ki, the concepts of the soul seem to be spred out amongst the power sources already and thats where I think they belong. The Monk should just be Psionic.
Soul power? what exactly is the soul in terms of D&D and why wouldn't Divine, Shadow and/or Primal not have a stake in it?
I don't see why there is even a need for Ki, the concepts of the soul seem to be spred out amongst the power sources already and thats where I think they belong. The Monk should just be Psionic.
In 4th edition D&D the soul is one of the three components of a sentient being. It is the part that distinguishes sentient beings from animals. It gives sentience, self awareness, and the ability to suppress animilistic desires.
Divine is taking the energy or power of the gods. Ki theoretically does come from the same planar location as divine, as souls come from the astral sea(I think). However that connection is roughly the equivilent to the connection between martial and elemental as martial abilities utilize materials that came from the raw elemental chaos.
Shadow.....I'm not sure why you would think that ki would be covered by that. Shadow is drawing upon the power of "raw darkness".
Primal is drawing power from primal spirits, which were beings that were born from the mixture of divine and elemental energies which gave rise to the world.
How does one go about doing that? how does a Monk train this skill of channeling Ki? Is it spiritual training or physical training? how would it physical training be different from a Martial character's physical training? How would it's spiritual training be different from a Psionic character's mental training?
My question is how that line of discussion is even relevant. "Method of training" is not even a significant characteristic that distinguishes Power Sources, let alone the only one.
In terms of how they train, there is extensive overlap between all of the existing power sources. In fact, only about three such methods even exist: physical training, prayer/meditation, and intellectual study. If this were at all defining, then we would only have three Power Sources and the Swordmage and Wizard would not be in the same Power Source.
And before anyone tries to call me on it... Yes, prayer and meditation are the exact same thing. Both meditating Chinese Shaolin Warrior-Monks and praying European Franciscan Nuns enter into the exact same physiological state for the same reasons, and this has been scientifically observed and studied. So, by the "training" line of discussion, Psionic and Divine are the same thing. Which goes to show how meaningless that line of discussion is.
Shadow.....I'm not sure why you would think that ki would be covered by that. Shadow is drawing upon the power of "raw darkness".
Ghosts, I was thinking about ghosts and how ghosts are souls and soul is Ki, maybe thats not Shadow maybe Shadow is like the anti-soul power source.
But from what you said, I would still say that all the power sources have a strong connection to the soul, Even the Inspiring Warlord and Bard's power is connected to their soul and don't forget about Wildsoul and Dragonsoul Sorcerers.
I don't like this new Ki is the power of soul concept. If you ask me the soul seems to be something more than a tool, more than some two letter word, more than just power; it seems to be more of what ties all the classes together, it's not what gives any of them their power but what makes them who they are.
Ki was never really a problem for me before power sources, things were all pretty abstract back then, but now that there are lines drawn between where people get their power Ki seems to be adopting an identity that does not sit right with me. If I was to take the old Ki and put into modern power source terms, I would say that it's Psionic for the most part.
My question is how that line of discussion is even relevant. "Method of training" is not even a significant characteristic that distinguishes Power Sources, let alone the only one.
I never said it was the only one, and I believe that how one trains is a significant characteristic that distinguishes Power Sources; A Fighter and Swordmage do not train the same way, if they did then why would they have different powers?
I never said it was the only one, and I believe that how one trains is a significant characteristic that distinguishes Power Sources; A Fighter and Swordmage do not train the same way, if they did then why would they have different powers?
No, a Fighter and a Swordmage do not train the same way. At the same time, neither does a Swordmage and a Wizard. However, I can imagine that a Swordmage and a Barbarian may have surprisingly similar training methods, or a Barbarian and a Paladin.
It is only a distinguishing characteristic for Power Sources if there is a consistent difference between how all classes of one Power Source train and how all classes of another Power Source train. However, for the vast majority of classes this is left pretty much up to the player's discretion as a matter of background for individual characters, so it really isn't anything that is a significant factor.
Honestly, if you try to lump together the physical training of a Ki class and the physical training of a Martial class, and ask how they can be different if they train the same, then I may as well ask how the Rogue and Fighter can possibly be different if they both rely entirely on physical training. The answer is the same for both questions. It is the minute specifics and goals of training that matter, not the coarse general similarities.
After all, if two real world athletes can use extremely similar training methods to get very different results, I see no reason to say that Martial and Ki should be the same because they use vaguely similar training methods. Since I have been watching the Tour of California lately, I will use bike racing as an example. All professional cyclists train by riding their bicycles, yet there is an incredible difference between a cyclist good at sprinting and a cyclist good at mountain climbing. The differences are revealed by the specific details of how they train, not the broad similarity of "they train by riding bicycles all day".
Ghosts, I was thinking about ghosts and how ghosts are souls and soul is Ki, maybe thats not Shadow maybe Shadow is like the anti-soul power source.
But from what you said, I would still say that all the power sources have a strong connection to the soul, Even the Inspiring Warlord and Bard's power is connected to their soul and don't forget about Wildsoul and Dragonsoul Sorcerers.
I don't like this new Ki is the power of soul concept. If you ask me the soul seems to be something more than a tool, more than some two letter word, more than just power; it seems to be more of what ties all the classes together, it's not what gives any of them their power but what makes them who they are.
Ki was never really a problem for me before power sources, things were all pretty abstract back then, but now that there are lines drawn between where people get their power Ki seems to be adopting an identity that does not sit right with me. If I was to take the old Ki and put into modern power source terms, I would say that it's Psionic for the most part.
Oh that is what you were going for with shadow? Oh ok I can explain that then easily. *pulls out a blackboard and starts writing on it*
Going back to 4th edition's three components of a sentient living creature, the two besides the soul are the body and the animus. The body is pretty self explanatory. The animus is what gives motion to the body, gives a creature instincts, regulates body functions, and it is where a "physical" copy of the soul's memories are stored. When a body dies, the soul departs leaving the animus and body behind. The animus stops working when this happens and the corpse is just left behind with an inactive animus.
Now this is where shadow magic comes into play. By applying shadow magic to the animus, it is able to be reactivated. This brings about souless mindless physical undead, by applying stronger magic memories can be accessed creating "intellegent" undead. Now incorporeal undead created through shadow magic are simply the animus of a creature seperated from the body and reactivated by shadow magic. They aren't actually the souls of the creature.
It is possible for there to be incorporeal undead that do possess their souls. However from what I can tell these are generally not created through shadow magic but instead through a strong determination on the part of the soul to stay place, so these undead are actually somewhat along the lines of being ki based undead. *finishes writing on the blackboard with the words quantum undead* Now I didn't cover every type of undead, but I think that should work as a quick primer.
Oh and I should probably point out that it is quite likely that primal spirits are in fact not actually souls of any kind as souls come from the astral sea and the primal spirits were born of the world. I'd say that they are in fact more likely to be extremely strong animuses that have no original body(or are splinters of the animus of the world itself).
And I really don't see any kind of connection between either the bard or warlord with souls. I admit I haven't really looked too closely at their powers, but I just don't see a connection. Additionally, I hardly think that the sorcerer draws his power from his actual soul. They have innate magic certainly, but neither of their "souls" actually gain their power from souls. The reason dragons are so powerful is because they were connected with a direct connection to the elemental chaos, not becasue of their souls. And the wildsoul draws his power from the raw mayhem in the elemental chaos, a location where the natives don't even possess souls.
.....And dang it another 30 min post when I was trying to get ready for bed.
Honestly, if you try to lump together the physical training of a Ki class and the physical training of a Martial class, and ask how they can be different if they train the same, then I may as well ask how the Rogue and Fighter can possibly be different if they both rely entirely on physical training. The answer is the same for both questions. It is the minute specifics and goals of training that matter, not the coarse general similarities.
A Fighter and a Rogue train very differently, but yes, both rely entirely on physical training and thus are only capable of physical feats.
You should see what a cyclist who's good at focusing his energy to the point of being able to breath fire can do, it makes for a close race.
I don't like this new Ki is the power of soul concept. If you ask me the soul seems to be something more than a tool, more than some two letter word, more than just power; it seems to be more of what ties all the classes together, it's not what gives any of them their power but what makes them who they are.
Souls make a character who they are because most intelligent living creatures have a soul, it's what makes then intelligent (by 4E standards at least). Ki refers to a specific way of tapping the latent power of the soul. Every one has a soul, but most people don't knows how to focus their soul. Just like most people don't know how to tap the arcane forces of the universe, call upon divine aid, beseech the primal spirits, or even push their body to its physical limits (martial). Everyone might have the potential to use any power source, but most don't he the knowledge, skill, or determination to do so.
Ki was never really a problem for me before power sources, things were all pretty abstract back then, but now that there are lines drawn between where people get their power Ki seems to be adopting an identity that does not sit right with me. If I was to take the old Ki and put into modern power source terms, I would say that it's Psionic for the most part.
I think you might be taking the word "source" too literally. Sure it can mean comes form, but it can also mean uses. A wizard might cast spells by drawing forth arcane energies, or he might do so by manipulating invisible lines of ambient arcane power. The difference is subtle but it can make a whole world of difference.
Oh and I should probably point out that it is quite likely that primal spirits are in fact not actually souls of any kind as souls come from the astral sea and the primal spirits were born of the world. I'd say that they are in fact more likely to be extremely strong animuses that have no original body(or are splinters of the animus of the world itself).
Wow, I think you may have actually provided the first argument for the animus/body/soul trinity that I could actual like. I could already grasp the concept that souls are stuff of the Astral Sea. Body, or rather matter, is easily traced back to the Elemental Chaos. Now by thinking of Animus as of the "World", or to put it differently, what one gets when one mixes soul+body (astral+elemental) I can actually see how they could all make an elegant sense. Thanks Ranadiel.
[INDENT]PS: I just noticed how your name is actually spelled. I had always read it as Randel (to rhyme with handle, as in the handle of the sword in your avatar.[/INDENT]
A Fighter and a Rogue train very differently, but yes, both rely entirely on physical training and thus are only capable of physical feats.
Yes. And Ki Power Source classes make extensive use of things like meditation, different forms of physical training, and study of secret arts in order to perform feats that are not purely physical.
You should see what a cyclist who's good at focusing his energy to the point of being able to breath fire can do, it makes for a close race.
Err, what? If you have a point here, you should make it less opaque. I will tentatively agree that it would be very cool if people in the real world had abilities as cool as what Ki characters should be able to perform, but it isn't particularly relevant to either my point or the discussion at hand...
Souls make a character who they are because most intelligent living creatures have a soul, it's what makes then intelligent (by 4E standards at least). Ki refers to a specific way of tapping the latent power of the soul. Every one has a soul, but most people don't knows how to focus their soul. Just like most people don't know how to tap the arcane forces of the universe, call upon divine aid, beseech the primal spirits, or even push their body to its physical limits (martial). Everyone might have the potential to use any power source, but most don't he the knowledge, skill, or determination to do so.
I'm not an expert by any means, but I don't remember Ki being the power of the soul, at least not in such a straightforward way, that seems new to me. I more remember it as just being one of the many forms of mysticsm found in D&D, it might have been based on the power of one's soul but not so much more than anyother spiritual teachings and certainly not the very power itself.
I don't remember Ki being as fundamental of a concept as you make it out to be. IMO It seems like this once very stylised and esoteric discipline is now getting a major promotion in the cosmology, and that rubs me the wrong way is all.
I would feel more comfortable with Ki just being a school of Psionics, rather than it being the basis of all spiritual concepts. Do you see my concern?
Yes. And Ki Power Source classes make extensive use of things like meditation, different forms of physical training, and study of secret arts in order to perform feats that are not purely physical.
So then you agree that certain kinds of training lead to certain kinds of power, a martial artist can not gain Ki power simply from physical training.
Training is how many classes get their power, and what kind of power it is will dictate how they train and how that training is different from similar classes from other power sources. That was simply the point I was trying to make.
I don't remember Ki being as fundamental of a concept as you make it out to be. IMO It seems like this once very stylised and esoteric discipline is now getting a major promotion in the cosmology, and that rubs me the wrong way is all.
You're right. Ki is getting a promotion in 4E, but it's no different then the promotion Primal got (from being mostly a sub-category of Divine in all previous editions). That's one of the things that comes with a new edition, change.
Change can be unsettling. We've all had to adjust, some of us are just handling that adjustment more easily then others.
So then you agree that certain kinds of training lead to certain kinds of power, a martial artist can not gain Ki power simply from physical training.
Well, no, a martial artist can not attain Ki power simply through physical training. However, as Anubis_Reynard is correct in pointing out, Ki power is not even necessarily the product of training. What is more, physical training certainly helps a Ki character just as much as it helps a martial character, though they may or may not make use of different kinds of physical training.
This is really far too complex of an issue to try to simplify down to statements like "certain kinds of training lead to certain kinds of power". In fact, simplifying it down to such may do a disservice to the wide diversity of concepts seen throughout fantasy.
Training is how many classes get their power, and what kind of power it is will dictate how they train and how that training is different from similar classes from other power sources. That was simply the point I was trying to make.
I will admit that I am having trouble following that sentence. However, I think it is roughly a statement that "power source = method of training", which is something that I already vehemently disagreed with earlier.
Even if you don't simplify it down as coarsely as what I was specifically arguing against above, it simply doesn't take into account the kind of wide flexibility that defines how individual players are able to describe their PCs in countless ways. I mean, even things like Epic Destinies can severely distort your "training" argument (do you really think a Demigod has the same training requirements as a normal character?), let alone some of the crazy stuff the average player or DM can cook up.
To put this all another way... How many different explanations for Psionic power can you devise? One is "study and training", another is "innate talent", a third is "possessed by a Quori", the fourth is "mix of talent and insanity", innately psionic races, Kalashtar, and artificially innately psionic Elan probably deserve their own placings, another can be "infused with the power of an ancient artifact", and reincarnation can probably be used to explain anything... Actually, I am willing that I can think of a few more given some more time, and almost everything I mentioned can be combined to some extent with any of the others. And I argue that any Power Source, including Martial, has just as many possible explanations for how the characters and classes of that power source possesses the abilities that they do.
You can have a Ki character who was simply born with an awakened soul, like they the steriotypical wise buddist 3-year-old.
The Golden Child
You win.
Wow, I think you may have actually provided the first argument for the animus/body/soul trinity that I could actual like. I could already grasp the concept that souls are stuff of the Astral Sea. Body, or rather matter, is easily traced back to the Elemental Chaos. Now by thinking of Animus as of the "World", or to put it differently, what one gets when one mixes soul+body (astral+elemental) I can actually see how they could all make an elegant sense. Thanks Ranadiel.
[INDENT]PS: I just noticed how your name is actually spelled. I had always read it as Randel (to rhyme with handle, as in the handle of the sword in your avatar.[/INDENT]
I'm glad I could be of assistance on making them make elegant sense for you. I'm also glad that you noticed how my name is actually spelled, because that would have been akward otherwise. :P
Going back to 4th edition's three components of a sentient living creature, the two besides the soul are the body and the animus. The body is pretty self explanatory. The animus is what gives motion to the body, gives a creature instincts, regulates body functions, and it is where a "physical" copy of the soul's memories are stored. When a body dies, the soul departs leaving the animus and body behind. The animus stops working when this happens and the corpse is just left behind with an inactive animus.
Now this is where shadow magic comes into play. By applying shadow magic to the animus, it is able to be reactivated. This brings about souless mindless physical undead, by applying stronger magic memories can be accessed creating "intellegent" undead. Now incorporeal undead created through shadow magic are simply the animus of a creature seperated from the body and reactivated by shadow magic. They aren't actually the souls of the creature.
This is from that article, right?
This is from that article, right?
It is a combination of info present in Worlds and Monsters and from Open Grave.
It is a combination of info present in Worlds and Monsters and from Open Grave.
Right on, and isn't there some more animus (and shadow and necromancy) juice in that City Entombed article?
Right on, and isn't there some more animus (and shadow and necromancy) juice in that City Entombed article?
Oh yeah. My wizard is definitely taking Grasp of the Grave when she gets her next level.
I can't wait to get a shadow leader into my hands, though. I hope it has an Int/Wis build.
To put this all another way... How many different explanations for Psionic power can you devise? One is "study and training", another is "innate talent", a third is "possessed by a Quori", the fourth is "mix of talent and insanity", innately psionic races, Kalashtar, and artificially innately psionic Elan probably deserve their own placings, another can be "infused with the power of an ancient artifact", and reincarnation can probably be used to explain anything... Actually, I am willing that I can think of a few more given some more time, and almost everything I mentioned can be combined to some extent with any of the others. And I argue that any Power Source, including Martial, has just as many possible explanations for how the characters and classes of that power source possesses the abilities that they do.
That's all true and I agree with it, but one thing I would hope not to find on your list is "trained themselves as a Fighter", "sudied the same as a Wizard" or "initiated as a Cleric"
I'm not saying there are only certain ways a person can gain their power, I'm saying there are certain ways you can't gain the power. If two different kinds of power can be obtained in the same way then we have a continuity overlap problem.
You're right. Ki is getting a promotion in 4E, but it's no different then the promotion Primal got (from being mostly a sub-category of Divine in all previous editions). That's one of the things that comes with a new edition, change.
Thats back when divine was just a category of power or more of how you were getting it; Primal at the time was a sub-category of divine but so was modern Divine.
so I disagree, I think the power of nature has always been a major player, It was called divine but divine had a different context back then; in old editions divine magic was just magic from external sources.
Also, nature magic could be found in almost any setting in any part of the world. It came in many different styles and forms, and it had many different schools of thought and philosophies within it(including Ki). Ki was always much more obscure and peticular.
That's all true and I agree with it, but one thing I would hope not to find on your list is "trained themselves as a Fighter", "sudied the same as a Wizard" or "initiated as a Cleric"
Depends. If you initiate as a cleric of Corellion's magic portfolio, I would think it resonable to use Wizard or Feylock stats for your character.
That's all true and I agree with it, but one thing I would hope not to find on your list is "trained themselves as a Fighter", "sudied the same as a Wizard" or "initiated as a Cleric"
I'm not saying there are only certain ways a person can gain their power, I'm saying there are certain ways you can't gain the power. If two different kinds of power can be obtained in the same way then we have a continuity overlap problem.
At this point, all I can say is that I disagree. At the level of very rough granularity that we have been discussing the topic (particularly when it still applies to the main topic), then that statement doesn't hold true at all. Keep in mind, this entire conversation emerged from the claim that whole power sources are too similar because of similar training methods.
Besides, I don't really think you can disallow any possibilities in the fantasy genre. In fact, it can be argued that a character who gains the skill of a Fighter by studying magical scrolls and ancient texts like a Wizard does is a fairly archetypical character in the Wuxia genre. I am pretty sure that something like this happens in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, actually... Certainly, I have no problem imagining an ordained priest of Kord who fights just like a Fighter because of a unique divine blessing from Kord Himself.
At this point, all I can say is that I disagree. At the level of very rough granularity that we have been discussing the topic (particularly when it still applies to the main topic), then that statement doesn't hold true at all. Keep in mind, this entire conversation emerged from the claim that whole power sources are too similar because of similar training methods.
Besides, I don't really think you can disallow any possibilities in the fantasy genre. In fact, it can be argued that a character who gains the skill of a Fighter by studying magical scrolls and ancient texts like a Wizard does is a fairly archetypical character in the Wuxia genre. I am pretty sure that something like this happens in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, actually... Certainly, I have no problem imagining an ordained priest of Kord who fights just like a Fighter because of a unique divine blessing from Kord Himself.
I don't have a problem with players coming up ideas that are inconsistant, players have the right to do whatever they want, but I hold higher standards for WotC, the stuff they come out with should all dynamicly fit together so that we at least have something stable to stand on, we need all players have a conventional understanding of things so that we don't have argue or explain everthing about every setting and character.
Those examples are fine, If a player wanted to do any of those examples in my game I would let them. But it's not my job to make sense of the stuff WotC puts out, it's my job and my player's job to make it into our own nonsense.
Depends. If you initiate as a cleric of Corellion's magic portfolio, I would think it resonable to use Wizard or Feylock stats for your character.
You said that they're initiating into a peticular portfolio of the god, so therefore it is not the same as a Cleric's initiation, although they could still be called a cleric, but a Wizard by anyother name smells just as... sweet?. I'm going to pretend that part of the example is not there to illustrate my counterpoint.
If a player said this, I would say go for it and not get hung up on whether it made sense or not.
If a PH said this, I would argue that there would have to be something different about that initiation or the people involved, otherwise logically there would be no Clerics of Corellion that have Cleric powers.
Anyway, I haven't been around for a few days, since, y'know, this isn't very much fun and I went to enjoy myself and play games instead. So I came back with a fresh perspective. And you know what I've decided since then?
Who cares?
Is Ki going to be unnecessary and completely redundant? Youbetcha. It's a given. They might as well add to the other power sources "- except when it's going to result in something Asian-like, because then it's a different power source, despite a likely complete lack of an Asia in your campaign world." Because some people obviously think "it's new, different, and exciting, because it's Asian!" is a perfectly good argument.
But Races and Classes at least implies that the Monk class will be very physical, and can be something other than a seeker-of-enlightenment-and-perfection type, so there's some hope that the archetypes I want will still be possible. Granted, Races and Classes is a very old book, and some of its ideas changed before they were officially printed, but it's the most info we've got on the Monk. And the Barbarian seems to be turning out pretty sweet, despite not being exactly what I was hoping for. So maybe, just maybe, the Monk will turn out okay, despite my concerns about concept distinction.
So, by this point, everyone understands my argument, or at least has stopped listening.
Anyway, I haven't been around for a few days, since, y'know, this isn't very much fun and I went to enjoy myself and play games instead. So I came back with a fresh perspective. And you know what I've decided since then?
Who cares?
Is Ki going to be unnecessary and completely redundant? Youbetcha. It's a given. They might as well add to the other power sources "- except when it's going to result in something Asian-like, because then it's a different power source, despite a likely complete lack of an Asia in your campaign world." Because some people obviously think "it's new, different, and exciting, because it's Asian!" is a perfectly good argument.
But Races and Classes at least implies that the Monk class will be very physical, and can be something other than a seeker-of-enlightenment-and-perfection type, so there's some hope that the archetypes I want will still be possible. Granted, Races and Classes is a very old book, and some of its ideas changed before they were officially printed, but it's the most info we've got on the Monk. And the Barbarian seems to be turning out pretty sweet, despite not being exactly what I was hoping for. So maybe, just maybe, the Monk will turn out okay, despite my concerns about concept distinction.
Glad to see you finally conceded the point.
So, by this point, everyone understands my argument, or at least has stopped listening.
Anyway, I haven't been around for a few days, since, y'know, this isn't very much fun and I went to enjoy myself and play games instead. So I came back with a fresh perspective. And you know what I've decided since then?
Who cares?
Is Ki going to be unnecessary and completely redundant? Youbetcha. It's a given. They might as well add to the other power sources "- except when it's going to result in something Asian-like, because then it's a different power source, despite a likely complete lack of an Asia in your campaign world." Because some people obviously think "it's new, different, and exciting, because it's Asian!" is a perfectly good argument.
But Races and Classes at least implies that the Monk class will be very physical, and can be something other than a seeker-of-enlightenment-and-perfection type, so there's some hope that the archetypes I want will still be possible. Granted, Races and Classes is a very old book, and some of its ideas changed before they were officially printed, but it's the most info we've got on the Monk. And the Barbarian seems to be turning out pretty sweet, despite not being exactly what I was hoping for. So maybe, just maybe, the Monk will turn out okay, despite my concerns about concept distinction.
Congratulations, Matthias.
Glad to see you finally conceded the point.
Haven't conceded a thing. My points are still valid, and poorly refuted. Just decided that I didn't care enough to continue the argument. When are you going to concede that "martial controller" just isn't going to happen?
1) Creating a class specifically to fit a specific power source/role combination is the very kind of "needless symetry" that the developer's claim to be avoiding.
This is especially true when you consider the fact that I distinctly recall the developers saying that class design begins with an idea/archetype (eg. Barbaric/Skilled Fighter or Woodsman, Tactictian/Commander, Scholarly Wizard, Holy Priest/Warrior, etc), rather than from a deliberate attempt to fill a specific X/Y combination on the PS/R table.
Is it any wonder why we have more Strikers than any other role when each of those archetypes lends themselves more naturally to that role than any other?
2) Unlike most other power sources, the principles upon which the Martial Power Source is based does not lend itself naturally to the Controller Role. It is for this simple reason that each and every example of "Martial Controller" I have seen to date feels shoe-horned, and is held together with so much duct tape.
In fact, I sincerely hope never to see a Martial Controller unless of course, such a class evolved naturally from a different role and/or power source over the course of its development (as I highly doubt that even the devlopers have enough imagination to think of a Martial Controller archetype, without it being as contrieved as the numerous examples on these forums).
In fact, should such a class ever come into existance, I fully expect that its development would share many similarities to that of the Sorcerer, in respect to how the Sorcerer made the slow (but eventual) transition from Controller to Striker over the course of its development.
Just decided that I didn't care enough to continue the argument.
Well thanks for voicing your opinion while you did, bad things happen when good men do nothing.
...bad things happen when good men do nothing.
That is probably the only reason why I continue to read and post in threads like this.