Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gregt_314 Jun 18, 2009 4:22:54	Hey - just on the off-chance next year ISN'T Dragonlance... ... could we have an "updating the DL series modules" article in Dungeon? I've still got copies of the things at my house that I've never run because of the awfulness of the first edition rules. They're largely well structured with some great ideas and I'd love to give them an outing. The absolute priorities for getting the first module converted are: * 4E stats for Draconians and Gully Dwarves. * A Dragonlance treatment for what Goliaths, Dragonborn, Drow, Warforged, Genasi, Deva, Shifters and Half-Orcs are doing in Krynn (or an explicit banning of them). * A Dragonlance treatment of Gnomes as Tinker Gnomes (probably just a stat-shift to favour Artificer, removal of Feywild keyword and change of racial power). * A Dragonlance treatment of Halflings as Kender (fear resistance and an explicit mechanical treatment of kleptomania that explicitly and implicitly prevents it being a licence to be a game-disrupting jerk), along with stats for hoopaks. * A treatment of how Divine classes can play the first module (in which divine powers don't work) without being gimped for an entire module. Plus, ideally, racial feats for Qualinesti, Sylvanesti and Kagonesti elves and half-elves (sea elves, really, can wait) and Arcane Power Source class feats for the Orders of High Sorcery. I'm at the stage where I'll write the damn article, if Wizards want to commission me.
#2 Tharag_Bocc Jun 18, 2009 5:07:22	I'm a casual fan of Dragonlance. Never played the setting or read the novels, but I did own the 3.5 campaign guide and I would have ran it if I ever had an interested group. So please understand that I say all of the following with the utmost respect. * 4E stats for Draconians and Gully Dwarves. Dragonborn with special racial feats, roleplay the rest. Standard dwarf, player puts lowest stat in INT, the rest is just roleplaying. * A Dragonlance treatment of Gnomes as Tinker Gnomes (probably just a stat-shift to favour Artificer, removal of Feywild keyword and change of racial power). Maybe, but they already make good artificers due to high INT. Changing stats and keywords is probably an unnecessary change. Might be worth considering for a homebrew, but not something I ever expect to see WotC do officially. * A Dragonlance treatment of Halflings as Kender (fear resistance and an explicit mechanical treatment of kleptomania that explicitly and implicitly prevents it being a licence to be a game-disrupting jerk), along with stats for hoopaks. Halfings already have +5 bonus to save vs. fear effects and a +2 bonus to all thievery checks. A few thematic feats and proper roleplaying should solve the rest. * A treatment of how Divine classes can play the first module (in which divine powers don't work) without being gimped for an entire module. Divine powers either work or the classes are gimped, their really isn't much middle ground, save how badly the gimping is. Probably best to skip over any time frame when entire power sources don't work or just say they don't exist during said time frame. I'm at the stage where I'll write the damn article, if Wizards want to commission me. Send them your proposal, if they're intrested they'll get back to you (link).
#3 gregt_314 Jun 18, 2009 5:16:39	Dragonborn with special racial feats, roleplay the rest. Standard dwarf, player puts lowest stat in INT, the rest is just roleplaying. Draconians have wings, generally no breath weapon, a range of other special powers, and come in different breeds depending on which chromatic dragon they've been spawned from. Plus, monster stats. We don't need playable dragonborn for the DL modules. Maybe, but they already make good artificers due to high INT. Changing stats and keywords is probably an unnecessary change. Might be worth considering for a homebrew, but not something I ever expect to see WotC do officially. Dragonlance gnomes certainly don't come from the Feywild and they absolutely can't turn invisible. It's only a matter of a few lines of text to fix this, they just need to be balanced few lines of text. Halfings already have +5 bonus to save vs. fear effects and a +2 bonus to all thievery checks. A few thematic feats and proper roleplaying should solve the rest. I could live with this. Divine powers either work or the classes are gimped, their really isn't much middle ground, save how badly the gimping is. Probably best to skip over any time frame when entire power sources don't work or just say they don't exist during said time frame. Faith and the gods is absolutely central to Dragonlance, and particularly to the plot of the DL series modules. Essentially the setup is that every deity people have been worshipping for the last century or so is a false god, hence clerics don't have spells or other supernatural powers. The rediscovery of the true gods (and the implications of that) is the thematic core of the storyline. The first module starts with the rediscovery of the Blue Crystal Staff, a holy item of (if I recall correctly) the goddess Mishakal, which leads its followers to the Discs of Mishakal (found at the end of the first module) which contain sufficient teachings of the true pantheon to enable divine characters to change their faith to one of the true gods and receive their full power array. Probably the best solution is to say that the Blue Crystal Staff (designed to be wielded by one of the party) activates a Divine character's powers all by itself, and if there's more than one Divine character in the party they have their powers for 24 hours after touching the staff; the Discs make the empowerment permanent. It's a little handwavy but adequate. Send them your proposal, if they're intrested they'll get back to you (link). I may well. I was going to say I'll hold out to August and see if Dragonlance is confirmed but hey, the worst they can do is say no.
#4 Tharag_Bocc Jun 18, 2009 5:32:04	Draconians have wings, generally no breath weapon, a range of other special powers, and come in different breeds depending on which [u]chromatic[/u] dragon they've been spawned from. Plus, monster stats. We don't need playable dragonborn for the DL modules. Not all draconians had wings as I recall (the Aurak from the next DDM set certainly doesn't seem to have any) and dragonborn have at least one option by which they can acquire such. Breads can be differentiated with feats (see Forgotten Realms sun and moon elves), also weren't draconians spawned from corrupted metalic eggs?. As for the breath weapon, it's something of a handwave, but I'd just pass it off as part of the transition between editions (old Dragonlance and new Dragonlance don't have to be identical). Dragonlance gnomes certainly don't come from the Feywild and they absolutely can't turn invisible. It's only a matter of a few lines of text to fix this, they just need to be balanced few lines of text. Again, chalk it up to the change in addition, otherwise one might as well create an entirely new race, which since the name gnome is taken and 4E discourages sub-races, would require giving the race a more creative name than "tinkerer gnome". Probably the best solution is to say that the Blue Crystal Staff (designed to be wielded by one of the party) activates a Divine character's powers all by itself, and if there's more than one Divine character in the party they have their powers for 24 hours after touching the staff; the Discs make the empowerment permanent. It's a little handwavy but adequate. Whatever works for you, but I'd still suggest it would just be a better choice to skip that particular module (put it into the background material for the campaign) and move straight into the all power sources work time period. I may well. I was going to say I'll hold out to August and see if Dragonlance is confirmed but hey, the worst they can do is say no. Good luck.
#5 famousfoxking Jun 18, 2009 9:56:41	* 4E stats for Draconians and Gully Dwarves. Monster stats for Draconians would be a must, of course. Do you forsee characters fighting Gully Dwarves? The general 4e theory is "if the players don't fight it, it doesn't get stats". Given the delve format, it makes sense to leave them out if they're not going to be in combat. * A Dragonlance treatment for what Goliaths, Dragonborn, Drow, Warforged, Genasi, Deva, Shifters and Half-Orcs are doing in Krynn (or an explicit banning of them). For the campaign world, absolutely. For the Chronicles? I'm not sure they're necessary. Dragonborn especially fit much better in the future when the draconians have become something other than stormtroopers. * A Dragonlance treatment of Gnomes as Tinker Gnomes (probably just a stat-shift to favour Artificer, removal of Feywild keyword and change of racial power). Int is good enough to make them good artificers. The feywild keyword doesn't do anything, so there's no real reason to have it or get rid of it. The racial power is probably better suited to a feat that replaces Fade Away. In exchange you'd get a power that's slightly better than Fade Away (since you're trading in both the power AND a feat). Maybe the ability to use one additional magic item daily power per tier? * A Dragonlance treatment of Halflings as Kender (fear resistance and an explicit mechanical treatment of kleptomania that explicitly and implicitly prevents it being a licence to be a game-disrupting jerk), along with stats for hoopaks. All you need are hoopaks, since 4e halflings are already kender. * A treatment of how Divine classes can play the first module (in which divine powers don't work) without being gimped for an entire module. Just don't let anyone be a divine character during the first module. The staff is an artifact that lets you expend a martial encounter, daily or utility power for Divine Glow, Beacon of Hope and Cure Light Wounds, respectively. Goldmoon is actually a ranger. Then you just have whoever ends up with the staff re-roll their character once they find the disks. OR, you don't let anyone play a divine character in the first module, and you make Goldmoon an NPC the characters have to keep safe and see through to the end. I'm at the stage where I'll write the damn article, if Wizards want to commission me. Pitch it, but don't hold your breath. If DL isn't the 2010 setting, I imagine it's still coming out. Half the things you suggest are more appropriate for a Dragonlance Player's Guide than a module anyway, so I wouldn't expect them to see print until that book came out. Even though most of Dragon is playtest these days (even when it doesn't say "playtest" on the article) I doubt we'd see these things published too far ahead of the "official" campaign setting.
#6 cam_banks Jun 18, 2009 12:53:49	Greg, did you ever check out the dozen or so sourcebooks, adventures, and supplements we produced for Dragonlance under 3.5? Have you visited the Dragonlance fan community forums at www.dragonlanceforums.com or the fan site at www.dlnexus.com? There are numerous fan-created conversions for 4E in the works or discussed there, including some racial conversions by me based on material I wrote for Races of Ansalon. I've also thought that Dragon and Dungeon articles related to Dragonlance would be a good way to keep the setting's popularity going throughout the period of downtime between our 3.5 books and whenever WotC stages a 4E release. I'd write those in a heartbeat. Cheers, Cam
#7 Vilnias_Nastavnik Jun 18, 2009 12:56:29	As I remember (it's been a while and my Kenders always used daggers not hoopaks) hoopaks are basically a sling on a stick, just use the Med size damage instead of the small.
#8 famousfoxking Jun 18, 2009 15:08:37	As I remember (it's been a while and my Kenders always used daggers not hoopaks) hoopaks are basically a sling on a stick, just use the Med size damage instead of the small. Well, they're a little more complicated than that. Hoopaks are ranged weapons and melee weapons at the same time, but they're not as simple as thrown weapons: each component weapon should have different stats. They actually share some traits with double weapons. Presumably, every Melee+Ranged weapon would have the same schema, so a hoopak would have the same format as a crossbow with a bayonet or a gunblade.
#9 cam_banks Jun 18, 2009 15:32:18	Kender weapons are usually simple weapons joined together, rather than being full-scale double weapons. In other words, anybody could use one if they were individual weapons. There isn't really much to a club + sling combination, for instance. Some of them were more martial, such as the chapak, though even that was just a sling + axe. Cheers, Cam
#10 serabaso Jun 18, 2009 17:12:48	Check out this unoffical website for Dragonlance. They do a lot of the work to update rules unoffically. http://www.dlnexus.com/
#11 famousfoxking Jun 18, 2009 17:29:41	Kender weapons are usually simple weapons joined together, rather than being full-scale double weapons. In other words, anybody could use one if they were individual weapons. There isn't really much to a club + sling combination, for instance. Some of them were more martial, such as the chapak, though even that was just a sling + axe. I'm not suggesting they should be hard to use, I'm suggesting that they have stat lines unlike what we have today. That has nothing to do with whether they're simple, military or superior.
#12 aliothefool Jun 19, 2009 5:23:11	Greg, did you ever check out the dozen or so sourcebooks, adventures, and supplements we produced for Dragonlance under 3.5? Have you visited the Dragonlance fan community forums at www.dragonlanceforums.com or the fan site at www.dlnexus.com? There are numerous fan-created conversions for 4E in the works or discussed there, including some racial conversions by me based on material I wrote for Races of Ansalon. I've also thought that Dragon and Dungeon articles related to Dragonlance would be a good way to keep the setting's popularity going throughout the period of downtime between our 3.5 books and whenever WotC stages a 4E release. I'd write those in a heartbeat. Cheers, Cam I'd love to see that if WotC doesn't do the full thing themselves. Have you considered submitting that proposal (possibly waiting until post-GenCon to see what the announced setting is?)
#13 cam_banks Jun 19, 2009 22:54:04	I'd love to see that if WotC doesn't do the full thing themselves. Have you considered submitting that proposal (possibly waiting until post-GenCon to see what the announced setting is?) I'm pretty sure they're not looking for that at this point in time. Cheers, Cam
#14 gregt_314 Jun 20, 2009 0:07:54	Greg, did you ever check out the dozen or so sourcebooks, adventures, and supplements we produced for Dragonlance under 3.5? Have you visited the Dragonlance fan community forums at www.dragonlanceforums.com or the fan site at www.dlnexus.com? There are numerous fan-created conversions for 4E in the works or discussed there, including some racial conversions by me based on material I wrote for Races of Ansalon. I've also thought that Dragon and Dungeon articles related to Dragonlance would be a good way to keep the setting's popularity going throughout the period of downtime between our 3.5 books and whenever WotC stages a 4E release. I'd write those in a heartbeat. Cheers, Cam Hi Cam. I'll be honest, I've deliberately not gone looking on the net for Dragonlance mods and Dragonlance forums because my romance with the world ended abruptly and finally at the point where I read Dragons of Summer Flame; I've been deliberately avoiding learning anything more about what other horrible twists the continuity of Krynn might have taken. Much like with Star Wars, I'm perfectly happy to contain my love of Dragonlance to the original setting and disregard any "expanded universe" material. A 4E Dragonlance is really only going to please me if it reboots to, or explicitly supports, the War of the Lance era. To be clearer, I guess I don't really want the Dragonlance world, as such - I just want to run those DL modules, finally, after all these years. That obviously makes me not the guy to write any Dragonlance anything, even if there weren't already the experts with credentials out there that you represent. And between work and the games I'm running and blogging I don't really have the time to be writing full-on module conversions. To everyone else: * Running the DL modules is the point; I'm not intending to skip the first one. It's thematically important to establishing the relevance and impact of the war and setting up the running themes of faith and friendship. * DL1 strongly contemplates you fighting gully dwarves so yes, they potentially need stats. Although I'm sure there's a low level minion that could be name-swapped to have its stats stand in. * Chromatic was a typo; I meant to say metallic. It was a Freudian slip from a conversation I was having where I was saying dragonborn are a bit like the chromatic versions of hte metallic draconians.
#15 cam_banks Jun 20, 2009 0:10:48	Greg, There are other people who feel a lot like you do, and we're just as keen to have them on forums as those who don't. Also, the 3.5 revisions that MWP published a couple of years ago near the end of our license don't assume anything more than the War of the Lance being true (likewise the War of the Lance sourcebook doesn't, either) so those are both excellent resources for you. Cheers, Cam
#16 aliothefool Jun 21, 2009 11:09:44	I'm pretty sure they're not looking for that at this point in time. Cheers, Cam Yeah, I figure the same as well, but that doesn't stop me from chasing the carrot of hope. As for all the post-WoL stuff, including Summer of Flame, count me on the side of loving all of it. The greatest part of Dragonlance is its evolution as a living world. I haven't always agreed with events that took place (I'm looking at the perma-death of Takhisis) but it was part of Mina's story, and Mina took Raistlin's place as my favorite DL character, so it's semi-forgivable.