Admittedly, the theme is "War against the Far Realm." However, this could be done with Shadow. What if the Shadow heroes took up their trade to battle even worse entities? The necromancer who summoned the walking dead to battle the even worse shoggoths? They could fit right in. Instead, we have...meh.
Thoughts?
I suspect we will see 4 Shadow/2 Psionic/2 Martial in PHB4.
March of 2011 you will probably get your wish.
I suspect we will see 4 Shadow/2 Psionic/2 Martial in PHB4.
I'm also hoping for more martial classes. And. The. *******. Martial. Controller.
I don't see how anyone can complaining about classes that no one knows anything about anyway.
Meh. Who cares about these "primal", "shadow" or "divine" labels? All i care about is having classes that are cool and balanced. What does it matter what completely arbitrary and mutable category they supposedly belong to?
I don't see how anyone can complaining about classes that no one knows anything about anyway.
Agreed.
Except I hope we never get a Martial Controller. In that instance, for me, labels DO matter.
Bel
All i care about is having classes that are cool and balanced.
I agree, I don't care what power source a class will belong to as long as it is fun to play and reasonably well balanced. Many have speculated the divine and primal characters would have previously been ki classes that have simply been redesignated.
I agree Necromancers and their ilk will be welcome addition to the game. I would love to have all of the classes from all of the power sources now, but that is not a realistic goal.
I would hazard to guess that, at this point, WoTC has already done a great deal of the design work on the PHB3 classes (the monk playtest is good evidence this is true).
If they were to instead include the shadow power source they would have the design process over. This would either 1.) set back the PHB3 several months or 2.) force them to pump out poorly designed and poorly tested classes. Neither option appeals to me.
I'll bet that the final 2 Martial characters are epic (not Epic, epic) too. If they have a really good idea for a Martial Controller, then I'll take it.
On that subject, I think that people don't think about: The people at WotC probably have someone working pretty darn hard to make one. Maybe they have something already.
We won't get a Primal Necromancer, but a Shadow one, thus we want the Shadow powersource, or whatever other power source is likely to have your favourite.
Personally, I don't want a necromancer class at all, any more than I want illusionist as a separate class. :shrug:
I heard that Shadow (and Elemental) are actually looking more likely than Ki was. Didn't a WotC staff member say that?
The people at WotC probably have someone working pretty darn hard to make one.
boy I would hate to be that guy.
DarkotheDarkGod, Have you considered that, much like Ki, Shadow got scrapped and consumed into other existing power sources? For example, maybe your Necromancer will be in the PHB3, just under the Divine power source instead of that silly "Shadow" B.S. You said yourself that Necromancy is a divine archetype that has yet to be covered...
Well, Mike Mearls coming out and saying Shadow and Elemental are still coming, because unlike Ki they're viable, just kinda sorta destroys any notion that Shadow has been consumed by other sources.
Now, Necromancer could become Divine, but there's absolutely no good reason for it when Shadow is still coming.
Crimson Concerto, where did you hear that?
I didn't. I'm just making a reasonable assumption.
I heard that Shadow (and Elemental) are actually looking more likely than Ki was. Didn't a WotC staff member say that?
I'm wondering where you heard that. I've heard no such thing.
Well, Mike Mearls coming out and saying Shadow and Elemental are still coming
I don't recall him saying that. From what I heard, he said they "weren't going anywhere" just like Ki didn't go anywhere.
Now, Necromancer could become Divine, but there's absolutely no good reason for it when Shadow is still coming.
And what makes you think that the Necromancer would have been a Shadow power source class to begin with? Does anybody even know what this Shadow power source is? Because I certainly haven't heard anything at all meaningful about it, much less about what classes it might contain.
Personally, I don't want a necromancer class at all, any more than I want illusionist as a separate class. :shrug:
The Illusionist was done fairly well as a wizard build, but I think the conjurer/summoner could have benefited more from being a separate class, and I think due to modern influences (yes, those dirty awful video games anti-4e people whine about) the necromancer is a little too iconic as a stand alone to be turned into just another class build, instead of a separate class.
I don't recall him saying that. From what I heard, he said they "weren't going anywhere" just like Ki didn't go anywhere.
And what makes you think that the Necromancer would have been a Shadow power source class to begin with? Does anybody even know what this Shadow power source is? Because I certainly haven't heard anything at all meaningful about it, much less about what classes it might contain.
As to the first, he said they were still in development, because they were viable. He said Ki was found unviable, so while it's possible it'll be made eventually, you shouldn't count on it. At all. It's a pretty clear indicator Ki is dead, and Shadow and Elemental are not.
For the second, yeah we do know a fair amount about the Shadow source, just looking at the PPs that are based off it, and the Shadowfell. It deals with cold, necrotic, death/undeath, darkness, secrets, etc.
As to the first, he said they were still in development, because they were viable. He said Ki was found unviable, so while it's possible it'll be made eventually, you shouldn't count on it. At all. It's a pretty clear indicator Ki is dead, and Shadow and Elemental are not.
Can you cite anything to this effect? Because the only thing I've heard he said was that they "aren't going anywhere" which doesn't mean a thing one way or the other. It could mean that they "aren't going anywhere" in that they're not going away so we'll still get them or that they "aren't going anywhere" in that they can't seem to get anywhere with them the same way that couldn't get anywhere with Ki.
Where has he specifically confirm that Shadow and Elemental are viable and that we will be getting them eventually? I want a quote and citation. Because Shadow and Elemental seem just as absolutely useless and unnecessary to me as Ki is.
Didn't a WotC staff member say that?
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1188810
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1188810
Yes, I've seen that thread. Unless there's anything beyond the quote in the first post that isn't just speculation. That's exactly the quote I've been referring to.
And you may see Shadow & Elemental as unnecessary, but plenty of us see them as necessary or desirable. More options is better than less.
Edit: and that's not even the full post. The full post includes the question Mearls is responding to. http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10346424&postcount=9
http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10347334&postcount=20
Could you possibly tell us IF there are any power sources that might be used that haven't been mentioned yet?
It's always possible that some new power source might bump one of those (psi, shadow, elemental) back, but I'd be really surprised if we flat out didn't do them. When we made the decision with ki, we reality checked the other power sources. They passed that test, and I'm pretty excited about the directions we're looking at.
Sounds like Shadow and Elemental are still coming to me ....
When he says "they're not going anywhere" in a thread about Ki being scrapped, in response to people asking if Shadow and Elemental are going to be scrapped too, it's pretty obvious he means they are not scrapped, and are still in development. Frankly, it's a pretty big stretch to believe he meant anything else.
Sounds like wishful thinking to me. What he said is completely ambiguous. He could easily mean "they're not going anywhere" in the sense that "We're not getting anywhere with these ideas right now. They're not going anywhere. We're trying to test stuff out to see if it goes anywhere, but it doesn't look like it is." Which is exactly what happened to Ki; those ideas just didn't go anywhere, so they were assimilated into other power sources.
Edit: and that's not even the full post. The full post includes the question Mearls is responding to. http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10346424&postcount=9
I've seen the full post. It's not any clearer.
And just because I feel like being thorough:
http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10347334&postcount=20
Sounds like Shadow and Elemental are still coming to me ....
That is a much clearer response, which is what I was looking for. Thank you.
I guess I must not be part of this "we" you are referring to because I like the idea of a new power source every year, and I certainly like the idea of adding more Primal classes.
I'm in roughly the same frame of mind. I want new sources, especially Shadow, but I have no problem with new classes for earlier sources as long as they're interesting and done well. Except for the Martial Controller. I never want to see that, just because.
That is a much clearer response, which is what I was looking for. Thank you.
You're welcome. Sorry that I was coming off as an ass there.
...Instead, we have...meh.
Thoughts?
Wait, so based upon the fact that we've merely been told PH3 will contain material for Divine, Primal, and Psionic characters, you know what we're getting and are qualified to say that you don't like it?
I don't recall him saying that. From what I heard, he said they "weren't going anywhere" just like Ki didn't go anywhere.
You're definitely twisting things around here. Taking it in context, what Mike Mearls said was,[indent]"Elemental and shadow aren't going anywhere. When we thought about ki, we also thought a lot about other power sources. We did some concept work on story and mechanics as a proof of concept.
(In general, that's a key component of our design approach. We're less into doing things now because they seem like good ideas. We'll do them because we can prove that they are good ideas.)" *[/indent]In context, it's pretty clear that what he meant was that after Ki was scrapped, Shadow and Elemental were both developed and strengthened as a design concept.
And what makes you think that the Necromancer would have been a Shadow power source class to begin with? Does anybody even know what this Shadow power source is? Because I certainly haven't heard anything at all meaningful about it, much less about what classes it might contain.
Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters noted that the Shadow power source will "manipulate necrotic energy". Given that we've already established that the Shadow power source has been consolidated and developed as a concept, Necromancy seems like a natural fit for that description.
Furthermore, Rich Baker posted this hint, (with highlighting added by me):[indent]The Shadow Weave is still out there, in a manner of speaking. It's basically going to survive into 4e as the Shadow power source (as opposed to the Arcane power source). So necromancers, and possibly illusionists, may appear as "wizardly"-type characters who draw on the Shadow power source instead of the Arcane power source. *[/indent]
EDIT: Ninja'd. Man, you guys post fast!
You're welcome. Sorry that I was coming off as an ass there.
No worries. :D
But in this event that Shadow and Elemental are still in, I really have to wonder what they have up their sleeves for them, because they'd have no purpose in existing if what they could do could simply be tied into Arcane or Divine. I wonder what will really be so different about them...
I mean, just thinking of the Necromancer, if it does turn out that it will be a Shadow class, what about the fact that it could fit perfectly well into either Arcane or Divine or both?
EDIT:
EDIT: Ninja'd. Man, you guys post fast!
It happens. :P
No worries. :D
But in this event that Shadow and Elemental are still in, I really have to wonder what they have up their sleeves for them, because they'd have no purpose in existing if what they could do could simply be tied into Arcane or Divine. I wonder what will really be so different about them...
I mean, just thinking of the Necromancer, if it does turn out that it will be a Shadow class, what about the fact that it could fit perfectly well into either Arcane or Divine or both?
EDIT:It happens. :P
Eh, we already have classes that sorta cross the source-lines. The barbarian is only Primal due to rages invoking the spirits, otherwise it'd be more Martial. Monk is sorta the same. Sorcerer could be more Elemental, depending on how that source goes. And the Warlock Dark Pact strays into Shadow while the Vestige pact and to a lesser extent Infernal pact have similarities to Divine.
Hello everyone. As we all probably know, the PHB3 cover has been released, and the cover is "psionics, divine, and primal." However, we already have 4 divine heroes and 4 primal heroes - do we need more right now?
Sure. My divine family of characters is always open to expanding to more brothers and sisters with new classes.
Just because we have 4 classes, one of each role, doesn't mean the idea well of classes for the power source has been exhausted. I have no problem waiting for the other power sources. They will come in due time. Patience is a virtue.
Hello everyone. As we all probably know, the PHB3 cover has been released, and the cover is "psionics, divine, and primal." However, we already have 4 divine heroes and 4 primal heroes - do we need more right now? I think more people would rather have a necromancer, ninja, or shadowcaster than "hey, look, another cleric!" Pretty much any archetype of cleric, save necromancer, can be covered with the current rules.
Admittedly, the theme is "War against the Far Realm." However, this could be done with Shadow. What if the Shadow heroes took up their trade to battle even worse entities? The necromancer who summoned the walking dead to battle the even worse shoggoths? They could fit right in. Instead, we have...meh.
Thoughts?
Thoughts? The title of your post is awful. In your title you appear to be speaking for the community as a whole. "We don't want more divine and primal."? Says you. I most assuredly do want more Divine and Primal classes, and options in general. Also, more Arcane and Martial. "We'd rather have shadow."? Again, says you. Some people couldn't care any less about Shadow if they actively tried to do so. Granted, I'm not one of them, and would like to see Shadow. However, I would not say I'd RATHER have Shadow. Especially since power sources are virtually entirely interchangeable.
Mostly, I just think your post gives a terrible first impression, starting on rather the wrong foot. Please, don't try to hyperbolically inflate your stance by attributing your personal opinions to the community as a whole. It is perfectly okay, and you come across better, if you simply attribute your personal opinions properly to yourself. "I don't want more divine and primal. I'd rather have shadow.", and doing the same in the post proper, would have gotten the point across much less abrasively without a single loss of understanding on the part of those reading your post.
I'd also like to see a martial controller though.
I'm tired of new power sources. Too many cooks spoil the broth.
I want to see more Martial and Divine classes. I don't want any more Primal ones, and I sure as hell don't want any new power sources. Things have already veered too far away from what D&D used to (and, IMO, should still) be.
Speak for yourself.
I'm tired of new power sources. Too many cooks spoil the broth.
I want to see more Martial and Divine classes. I don't want any more Primal ones, and I sure as hell don't want any new power sources. Things have already veered too far away from what D&D used to (and, IMO, should still) be.
Everyone in full plate, right? Lord knows you noisily dislike any power source that isn't famous for encasing its characters in metal.
I am probably in the minority here but I would not be disapointed if they never release "shadow" as a power source. What a weak-sause name.
We already have a elemental power source, that would be arcane. Realisticly speaking what would a elementalist do that a magi cannot?
To OP: Actually I rather like the classes currently released for both of the divine and primal power sources. DO not try to speak for me. Speak for yourself.
"Shadow" isn't any worse than "Divine", "Martial", "Primal", or "Arcane". People have talking about "shadow magic" since the beginning of the modern fantasy genre.
As for "Elemental", I have no idea what they might do, but just because I haven't thought of a solution doesn't mean there isn't one. I think you're asking the wrong question. You should be asking, "What can an Arcane character do that an Elemental character can't do?" -- asking this makes it obvious how ridiculous it is to disregard something you have no information about.
Or perhaps how utterly ridiculous it is to be excited by somthing that is currently in R&D and not even ready to playtest. Being excited about somthing that may never leave the drafting board is silly.
It's silly to be excited for the future? Whatever you say, Spock.
As far as Shadow goes I could care less about a necromancer class, or anything else that might fall into the same sub-catagory of arcane / divine lore.
The Arcane/Divine divide is just as arbitrary as the Arcane/Shadow, or Divine/Psionic, or Primal/Elemental, or whatever else; the only difference is that you've accepted the arbitrary distinction between Arcane and Divine, but you haven't accepted the rest. The logical extension of your argument is that we should only have two power sources: Martial and Magical; beyond that, the extension is that we shouldn't have power sources at all.
3 actually would basicly do just fine with me. Divine, martial, & arcane.
Yes. Getting excited over vaporware is silly.
It's not software, and even if it was, it's not vaporware: they never said they were planning on releasing it soon, nor have they given us any indication that they aren't going to. In fact, as we discussed above, Mearls recently indicated that the concept is currently stronger than ever. There's no reason to think that things won't happen exactly the way WotC has said they will.
You only want Arcane, Divine, and Martial power sources, and you "could care less about a Necromancer class." If you already have what you want, and you don't care about new class concepts like the Necromancer, why are you posting here? Are you trying to convince us that since you don't want new classes and power sources, we shouldn't either?
Up thread, you said that it was "utterly ridiculous... to be excited about something that's currently in [development] and not even ready to playtest." From this comment, I can only assume that you've never taken interest in an upcoming product, like a sequel to a favorite movie or game, nor perhaps an upcoming D&D product -- which leads one to wonder why you are posting in a forum labeled "Future Releases". You must be an utterly ridiculous person for being excited about some upcoming products, just like the rest of us.
As for adding to the roster of Divine and Primal heroes, I'm a huge fan of the idea. I take no issue with giving players more options, as long as the concepts are fresh (or freshly re-imagined) and keep in line with the currently established fluff.
I do believe that a Shadow power source is warranted. Just the fan interest expressed on these boards is enough to support the idea that such an addition would be enriching to the storylines and character developements that players are bringing to the game.
Mention of the Elemental power source stirs visions of transmutation, alteration, and other such effects. The Primal power source is all about spirits, ancestors and nature... very different. I think people are taking issue with the utilization of the term "Elemental". I don't think we're supposed to think "elements" when WoTC speaks about the Elemental power source. It is my assumption that Elemental will be about the primordial building blocks of existance, as opposed to earth, air, fire, water and weather.
I say bring on more classes, more power sources and more options! All of it just gives me more ways in which to trick out my Bards!
[/indent]we already have 4 divine heroes and 4 primal heroes
And 6 Arcane classes.
I have a feeling that there is only one Primal and one Divine class in the book, and 5 Psionic classes. The many many pages of rules for the Hybrid classes of all the other books will take up a lot of space as there will 25/26 of them in the book (25 with 7 base classes, 26 with 8) and unless they want to increase page count from what was in PHB2, they will need to cut something.
This is a good point, and it sucks. Id rather have more new classes than a ton of hybrid entries.
Shadow seems to lend itself to class ideas that are Evil. Sure there have been interesting takes on Necromancers in the past that weren't evil, but by and large they are not one of the "good guys". Shadow classes don't naturally fit into the "Players are Heroes" design philosophy. It doesn't matter how many cool ideas the Shadow power source may inspire, WotC may not want to touch it for PR image reasons; at least not until they run out of other options to sell a slam dunk "must buy" book.
With Wizards now having Orb of Deception (Illusionists were once mentioned as Shadow) and Sorcerers being Arcane Strikers (if Elemental was going to happen, Sorcerers would have been a solid fit), the game designer comment that Shadow and Elemental "aren't going anywhere" may have meant they are in limbo until further notice.
The think the snag for Shadow with respect to 4E design is alignment. WotC's 4E design philosophy is that the players choose from Lawful Good, Good, or Unaligned. You can house rule anything you want, but their published material does not facilitate playing Evil or Chaotic Evil characters.
Shadow seems to lend itself to class ideas that are Evil. Sure there have been interesting takes on Necromancers in the past that weren't evil, but by and large they are not one of the "good guys". Shadow classes don't naturally fit into the "Players are Heroes" design philosophy. It doesn't matter how many cool ideas the Shadow power source may inspire, WotC may not want to touch it for PR image reasons; at least not until they run out of other options to sell a slam dunk "must buy" book.
The same could be said about Warlocks (especially those of the infernal pact), yet they somehow managed to get them to work. Before the first PHB came out, there was some concern about how one could play a good-aligned infernal warlock and remain believable. Adding in extra flavor indicating that infernal powers could be obtained through secrets left behind by long-dead devils rather than a direct deal with them probably helped in this regard.
Like the warlock, most PC necromancers in games where outright evil isn't allowed will probably be unaligned. Good necromancers will probably be rarer, but not entirely unheard of.
Bel
I think the snag for Shadow with respect to 4E design is alignment. WotC's 4E design philosophy is that the players choose from Lawful Good, Good, or Unaligned. You can house rule anything you want, but their published material does not facilitate playing Evil or Chaotic Evil characters.
Shadow seems to lend itself to class ideas that are Evil. Sure there have been interesting takes on Necromancers in the past that weren't evil, but by and large they are not one of the "good guys". Shadow classes don't naturally fit into the "Players are Heroes" design philosophy. It doesn't matter how many cool ideas the Shadow power source may inspire, WotC may not want to touch it for PR image reasons; at least not until they run out of other options to sell a slam dunk "must buy" book.
With Wizards now having Orb of Deception (Illusionists were once mentioned as Shadow) and Sorcerers being Arcane Strikers (if Elemental was going to happen, Sorcerers would have been a solid fit), the game designer comment that Shadow and Elemental "aren't going anywhere" may have meant they are in limbo until further notice.
No.
4E isn't any less "evil-friendly" than any other edition was at the same point in its lifespan. The design philosophy is that the majority of characters will be "good-ish" and heroic; however, nothing in the core rules prevents evil characters in any way. This is philosophy is identical to that in 3.5E and 3E (and probably earlier editions as well) -- evil characters are completely possible, but not encouraged. This also doesn't preclude "evil-centric" options being released for 4E in the future.
I don't know why you think that Shadow classes are more "evil" than, say, Warlocks, or any of the monstrous races already available in 4E: Drow, Tieflings, Minotaurs, and Gnolls, for starters. Do you consider Ninjas to be "evil"? How about Illusionists?
As for WotC not publishing Shadow to avoid PR trouble, I think you're 25 years late for this debate: D&D isn't even on the pop-cultural any more, and nobody gives a damn if they publish books that have references to demons, devils, and undead. In contrast, even World of Warcraft doesn't lose business for having playable undead and demon-worshiping Warlocks; why would a company one-tenth the size of Blizzard need to worry? "Evil" doesn't inspire the moral outrage it used to.
Wizards with illusion spells don't invalidate the potential of an Illusionist class anymore than an unarmed Fighter invalidates the Monk. Clerics of the goddess of death don't invalidate Necromancers any more than a Warlock's *psychic powers invalidate any Psionic classes. As for the Sorcerer and the Elemental power source, why do you assume it belongs there when we know next to nothing about Elemental? It's because you see energy damage attacks, isn't it?
Finally, regarding Mike Mearls comments about Shadow and Elemental "not going anywhere", I pity the poor guy for unfortunately saying something that's so to misinterpret when taken out of context. As has already been explained up thread and elsewhere, Mike makes his comments very clear in the followup: WotC is still planning to publish the Shadow and Elemental power sources, and the design concept for each is stronger than ever!
Note that this follows up on the second playable Shadow race - the first playable undead race - the Revenant. Shadow is coming; there's no reason to believe Elemental won't come eventually too.
This intrigues me though - what will be the 4 Shadow races in the PH4? If Assassin, the Shadow Striker, isn't the Shadow striker of the book, they'll need a second Shadow Striker. Because they've stated Assassin and Revenant won't be reprinted like Minotaur or Warforged (or the inevitable reprint of the Shadar-kai).
In any case, you're getting your divine and primal, but you're getting the shadow you want too. And this fall as well. Be happy.
It is quite feasible that Necromancy will be in the PHB3 as a primal class - with powers that focus on summoning spirits of the recently (and not so recently) departed to come aid you in your quest to defeat evil (or become it as the case may be)
Interesting spin on Necromancy! I haven't heard that one yet, so the originality is refreshing.
Elemental i see as a viable power source (even though Elementalists could just be yet another wizard build) Elemental clerics i don't really see working as a cleric build because of the flavour differences.
phb3 has the monk in it, so it was sold for that.
but we dont really need anymore divine and primal, unless the wu-jen and the other are getting in as those.
Meh. Who cares about these "primal", "shadow" or "divine" labels? All i care about is having classes that are cool and balanced. What does it matter what completely arbitrary and mutable category they supposedly belong to?
I don't see how anyone can complaining about classes that no one knows anything about anyway.
Exactly.
As for the Elemental powersource, I think the predominant assumption is that it will deal with the classic greek elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water. It is possible that the powersource deals with the periodic elements and is based around transmutation, alteration, alchemy, etc.
I think the transmutation thing is very possible, but I really hope they don't specifically call out a "periodic table" theme. It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Chemists & Compounds.
I, personally, am just ticked that we haven't seen anything of the shadow power source, considering how early we had the rules in other editions. Heck, we had the necromancer and assassin in 3.5 core. My main beef with this is that I feel we're about to go into 2 years of this edition with PHB3, and we still don't have all the options available from 3.5. (I'd also like to play a necromancer, too, yet we still aren't seeing one.) I'm not really into more divine and primal, as I feel they've got the bases covered. Heck, if you ask me, we have too many arcane classes. Sorceror springs to mind - AoE is covered by wizard, single-target by warlock. I'm not sure barbarian needed to be in primal - why does it have cold and fire powers? That doesn't jive with my 'Norse Berserker' image, or the image of rage I conceive, although, granted, my concepts probably seem wrong to some people. And if the 'divine and primal' are more former ki classes...meh.
Anyway, sorry if I offended anyone.
You got the core material, why not create what you want?
DarkotheDarkGod, Have you considered that, much like Ki, Shadow got scrapped and consumed into other existing power sources? For example, maybe your Necromancer will be in the PHB3, just under the Divine power source instead of that silly "Shadow" B.S. You said yourself that Necromancy is a divine archetype that has yet to be covered...
i agree that the necro should fall under divine. a necro would dedicate to the raven queen and use her powers for control of the undead or raising undead and whatnot. that is a perfect place to use the divine for a less than sanctimonious duty.
what is the shadow power but the power of the raven queen put to use. that means it is really just a divine power because it relies on her as a diety. you could also argue that vecna and sehanine have dominion over shadow as well. they both make up part of that dominion. so, make a divine that uses the shadow domain by dedicating the PC to a god that has shadow as a domain. then adapt the heal spells for necrotic use. convert the raise into a raise undead. adapt a summoning ritual for summoning undead. imagine using the radiance as shadow instead of light. imagine holding a holy symbol that sucks light from the room and causes blindness! F-ing right. that would be radical.
My main beef with this is that I feel we're about to go into 2 years of this edition with PHB3, and we still don't have all the options available from 3.5. (I'd also like to play a necromancer, too, yet we still aren't seeing one.)
You're angry that a system that, when PHB3 is released, will have been out for about 20 months doesn't have as many options as a system that was out for five years? Hell, eight years if you count 3.0.
You're angry that a system that, when PHB3 is released, will have been out for about 20 months doesn't have as many options as a system that was out for five years? Hell, eight years if you count 3.0.
That's kinda what I was thinking. A true Necromancer class (the Dread Necromancer) was released what, 2 years into 3.5? So like, 5 years into 3.x?
As for Divine necromancers... That would work if you were serving Vecna, maybe. But The Raven Queen? If you are thinking of a necrotic class serving the Raven Queen, you are NOT thinking Necromancer. One of the key themes for a Necromancer is "mastery of the undead", which usually includes summoning armies of minions, and then augmenting them. Both of those are things the Raven Queen would be opposed to. (I mean, in the PHB, it talks about defending the deceased from the "curse of undeath". That's not something that says "necromancer!")
I could see an undead-hunting class for the Raven Queen. It controls aspects of death in accordance, and could very easily have abilities that hamper undead, control them to help destroy other undead, and necromancer-ish necrotic bolts and poisons and draining effects and so on. But to be a servant of the Raven Queen, it'd work better as a Paragon Path. It's too narrow to be a full fledged class. (unless you think it's balanced and acceptable to have entirely separate classes for every deity, but then you'd have people wanting a Fire Mage class different from the Ice Mage class, and a Sword Fighter class different than an Archer class; all in all, once you get that specific, it's a paragon path, or set of feats/powers, not a class)
The traditional Necromancer needs it's own class, regardless of power source. (and I've seen reasoning it could go for Arcane, Divine, Primal, AND Shadow, and I would say the only reason it is more likely to go Shadow is a combination of the fluff importance of the Shadowfel, as well as the fact that it's a stipulated power source)
i agree that the necro should fall under divine. a necro would dedicate to the raven queen and use her powers for control of the undead or raising undead and whatnot. that is a perfect place to use the divine for a less than sanctimonious duty.
what is the shadow power but the power of the raven queen put to use. that means it is really just a divine power because it relies on her as a diety. you could also argue that vecna and sehanine have dominion over shadow as well. they both make up part of that dominion. so, make a divine that uses the shadow domain by dedicating the PC to a god that has shadow as a domain. then adapt the heal spells for necrotic use. convert the raise into a raise undead. adapt a summoning ritual for summoning undead. imagine using the radiance as shadow instead of light. imagine holding a holy symbol that sucks light from the room and causes blindness! F-ing right. that would be radical.
No. Just .... no. No one class should be beholden to a single god, no matter what. And the Shadow source does not exist because of the raven Queen. The Raven Queen exists because of the Shadow source. It existed before her, and it will exist after her.
No. Just .... no. No one class should be beholden to a single god, no matter what. And the Shadow source does not exist because of the raven Queen. The Raven Queen exists because of the Shadow source. It existed before her, and it will exist after her.
And talking about the shadow power source i guess it will be more like vital-energy/blood or something like manipulating magic, not related to any god cuz that way it will be divine.
And finally i think that the elemental power source will die like the ki.
PB3 and Martial Power 2 will have what remains of the Ki power source split up between Divine, Psionic, Martial, and Primal power sources.
My theory is thus:
PB3 and Martial Power 2 will have what remains of the Ki power source split up between Divine, Psionic, Martial, and Primal power sources.
Probably true.
We don't want more divine and primal. We'd rather have shadow.
You're not going to get 2 new power sources in 1 book. Expect 1 new power source per PHB. Obviously excluding the PHB1 for ridiculously obvious reasons.