So DMG2 announced that the third Druid build will be the Swarm Druid. This is probably the Druid Summoning.
Discuss.
Makes me think of Children of Winter from eberron, thay are druids with a thing for insects.
Makes me think of Children of Winter from eberron, thay are druids with a thing for insects.
So in Eberron Winter = Insects?! Whuh?! oO?
The Children of Winter are a sect of druids that are big on the whole 'life to death to rebirth to life to death' cycle, like, well the seasons and all that jazz. This gives them an affinity for vermin, who scavenge carrion for their own survival.
The Children of Winter are a sect of druids that are big on the whole 'life to death to rebirth to life to death' cycle, like, well the seasons and all that jazz. This gives them an affinity for vermin, who scavenge carrion for their own survival.
Hmmm makes sense.
I would have figured the Shaman would be more likely to get a 'swarm' build, with the idea being his Spirit Companion is actually a swarm of smaller spirits.
Actually, the picture that comes to my mind for a Swarm Druid is Willard. 
Actually, the picture that comes to my mind for a Swarm Druid is Willard.
Rats... so many rats...
So DMG2 announced that the third Druid build will be the Swarm Druid. This is probably the Druid Summoning.
Discuss.
there are already some summoning powers, this might be something having to do with their wild shape? wouldn't it be neat to wild shape into a swarm of stinging insects?
So DMG2 announced that the third Druid build will be the Swarm Druid. This is probably the Druid Summoning.
Discuss.
there are already some summoning powers, this might be something having to do with their wild shape? wouldn't it be neat to wild shape into a swarm of stinging insects?
Bing! At the D&D Games day in Manchester, UK there was the brief chance to look over an advance copy of Primal Power (ever seen a whole room literally lunge at a book? I have 
). The Swarm Druid takes less damage from melee and ranged attacks (like a swarm) while in beast form. The reduction is equal to a stat (constitution i think but don't quote me on that my memory is fuzzy as somebody was talking over my shoulder as I was reading it). The Summoner Druid is the other of the two builds introduced. I only got a brief look but both builds look wonderful. The Druid (and the primal power sorce in general) is getting a big dose of win.
What does the Swarm druid lose in exchange for that?
What does the Swarm druid lose in exchange for that?
That's one bit I can't remember. I know for a fact that it's instead of the predator's speed bonus or the guardian's con to AC but I can't remember if they gave anything else up like the beastmaster ranger losing Prime Shot. If my memory serves me correctly and it is Constitution-based then they will suffer lower AC for not having a secondary contribute to it and in return still get no damage reduction against area or close powers but there may be more I'm forgetting.
I'm sorry this info isn't that concise but I only had a couple of minutes with the book and was getting a bit tired by that point. I'd love to be able to field questions but I'm relying on a sleep-deprived memory of a quick flick through the book.
Man, I just got a great idea for a Dhampir Swarm druid that shifts into a cloud of bats. 
Man, I just got a great idea for a Dhampir Swarm druid that shifts into a cloud of bats.
It's always nice to see original thinking. (I kid, but I'm sure you're not the first.)
can anyone confirm weather the Druid will have other properties of a swarm. Like being able to fit in areas as the largest memeber of the swarm can fit through?
i would hazard a guess that the answer to that woudl be no. Considerign that Druids have dailies that allow them to change their size to smaller creatures it woudl seem to powerful by the design of the class and its power syste to allow you to essentially do it for free via a Wild Shape.
I coudl be wrong.
can anyone confirm weather the Druid will have other properties of a swarm. Like being able to fit in areas as the largest memeber of the swarm can fit through?
I remember that being a no. They've obviously triede to keep the conversion of beast form to "swarm form" as simple and abstract as possible. I actually thought along the lines of "This is more like a semi-swarm since it only gets a lesser version of swarms' damage reduction versus melee and ranged". I wish I'd looked a bit more at powers now but I'm guessing the various new powers will help to make the druid feel more swarm-like.
Swarm Druid|Paladin with Honored Foe. :D :D
i would hazard a guess that the answer to that woudl be no. Considerign that Druids have dailies that allow them to change their size to smaller creatures it woudl seem to powerful by the design of the class and its power syste to allow you to essentially do it for free via a Wild Shape.
I coudl be wrong.
... Dude, were you drunk when you typed this?
... Dude, were you drunk when you typed this?
Considering I've never been drunk in my life, I would say that's probably a no.
If you're talking about my typing sK1llZ, yeah I know, they suck.
Okay. It just reminded me of my typing when I drunkpost.
Awesome Dude: Okay. It just reminded me of my typing when I drunkpost.
LOL!
Alright, so the Swarm Druid's secondary stat is CON. I'm assuming that the Summoner Druid will also have CON as a secondary since summoners without high CON suffer from having squishy summons and won't have the surges to absorb killed summons.
Three CON builds and one DEX build means that Dwarves are now better Druids than Elves. Oh well, Primal Predator is still thematically my favorite, though I must admit that the Swarm Druid has me very intrigued. I'm wondering how the math will work out though (damage reduction = CON vs. having higher AC as a Guardian).
For those that have glimpsed the book, was it obvious how being a swarm affected the Druid's ability to control? I think there's a good amount of potential here, and will further differentiate the Druid as a unique kind of controller.
Alright, so the Swarm Druid's secondary stat is CON. I'm assuming that the Summoner Druid will also have CON as a secondary since summoners without high CON suffer from having squishy summons and won't have the surges to absorb killed summons.
Three CON builds and one DEX build means that Dwarves are now better Druids than Elves. Oh well, Primal Predator is still thematically my favorite, though I must admit that the Swarm Druid has me very intrigued. I'm wondering how the math will work out though (damage reduction = CON vs. having higher AC as a Guardian).
For those that have glimpsed the book, was it obvious how being a swarm affected the Druid's ability to control? I think there's a good amount of potential here, and will further differentiate the Druid as a unique kind of controller.
I've since wondered about having 3 con builds to one dex myself. As I said I could be remembering it wrong and it could have been dex as I was rushed. My brain keeps wanting to insert con though so I'm sitting at about 80% sure. If the book comes out and it's not con-based I warned you.
Sadly I didn't look much at powers (generally just scanned the new builds for all the classes) which I regret as I've been wondering how swarm druid's work as controller too. I really should have gotten more sleep the night before.
Alright, so the Swarm Druid's secondary stat is CON. I'm assuming that the Summoner Druid will also have CON as a secondary since summoners without high CON suffer from having squishy summons and won't have the surges to absorb killed summons.
Three CON builds and one DEX build means that Dwarves are now better Druids than Elves. Oh well, Primal Predator is still thematically my favorite, though I must admit that the Swarm Druid has me very intrigued. I'm wondering how the math will work out though (damage reduction = CON vs. having higher AC as a Guardian).
For those that have glimpsed the book, was it obvious how being a swarm affected the Druid's ability to control? I think there's a good amount of potential here, and will further differentiate the Druid as a unique kind of controller.
I've since wondered about having 3 con builds to one dex myself. As I said I could be remembering it wrong and it could have been dex as I was rushed. My brain keeps wanting to insert con though so I'm sitting at about 80% sure. If the book comes out and it's not con-based I warned you.
Sadly I didn't look much at powers (generally just scanned the new builds for all the classes) which I regret as I've been wondering how swarm druid's work as controller too. I really should have gotten more sleep the night before.
Don’t want to derail the thread, but since you have looked at all the builds, could you tell what do the other classes get?
Don’t want to derail the thread, but since you have looked at all the builds, could you tell what do the other classes get?
As best I can as I've said I was rather sleep deprived, is there nobody else here who was at Fanboy 3 on saturday?
Barbarian gets a build based around Thunder effects (the drop enemy to 0 HP power pushes nearby enemies and I think has a second effect that I've forgotten and a dual-wielding build that's being discussed on the striker forums.
Shaman gets a build called the eagle shaman (which I remember my friend was very impressed with) and a shaman build that revolves around comuning with the world itself rather than a particular animal spirit. I didn't pay as much heed to their mechanics as I should have I'm afraid as I was a bit hung up on the general flavour (which I liked).
Warden gets Life Warden (gives temps HPS to allies when it second winds, forgotten which stat it used) and (I may be getting confused with an ED here) a Storm based build which I found odd as there's plenty of support for that in the PHB2 (including a PP) hence my wondering if I'm wrong there again I got hung up on that fact and didn't read the mechanics. My friend then rushed to the feats section (he had heard about but not read about Tribal feats and was interested.
There is a surprising amount of fluff in the back of the book too. This was all covered in the space of two minutes hence my information being brief.
Don’t want to derail the thread, but since you have looked at all the builds, could you tell what do the other classes get?
As best I can as I've said I was rather sleep deprived, is there nobody else here who was at Fanboy 3 on saturday?
Barbarian gets a build based around Thunder effects (the drop enemy to 0 HP power pushes nearby enemies and I think has a second effect that I've forgotten and a dual-wielding build that's being discussed on the striker forums.
Shaman gets a build called the eagle shaman (which I remember my friend was very impressed with) and a shaman build that revolves around comuning with the world itself rather than a particular animal spirit. I didn't pay as much heed to their mechanics as I should have I'm afraid as I was a bit hung up on the general flavour (which I liked).
Warden gets Life Warden (gives temps HPS to allies when it second winds, forgotten which stat it used) and (I may be getting confused with an ED here) a Storm based build which I found odd as there's plenty of support for that in the PHB2 (including a PP) hence my wondering if I'm wrong there again I got hung up on that fact and didn't read the mechanics. My friend then rushed to the feats section (he had heard about but not read about Tribal feats and was interested.
There is a surprising amount of fluff in the back of the book too. This was all covered in the space of two minutes hence my information being brief.
Thanks for the info!
I would be rather surprised if this "swarm" build was dexterity based. My reasoning is simply that having dexterity based damage reduction seems especially potent. Not only does your secondary boost your reflex, your initiative, and your AC, but now it's going to give you damage reduction versus melee & ranged attacks? The Primal Predators one-point boost to speed can go take a long walk off of a short pier.
~Bizkit
I would be rather surprised if this "swarm" build was dexterity based. My reasoning is simply that having dexterity based damage reduction seems especially potent. Not only does your secondary boost your reflex, your initiative, and your AC, but now it's going to give you damage reduction versus melee & ranged attacks? The Primal Predators one-point boost to speed can go take a long walk off of a short pier.
~Bizkit
Agreed, it would definitely overshadow the Primal Predator. With CON providing DR the Swarm Druid presents an interesting tradeoff, in that it has lower AC than the Predator or Guardian but can take hits better. I'd wager that this will make the Swarm Druid the best frontliner "tank" of the Druid builds. The Predator remains a very effective frontline skirmisher, and the Guardian and Summoner will probably be more likely to spend more time fighting from range. I would also bet that the Swarm Druid has a secondary role of Defender, preserving the tradition that Druids can do everything (but in 4E they just can't do it all at once). I'll bet Grasping Claws will be a popular choice with Swarm Druids if that's the case.
On a related note, does the Summoning build get its own new class feature, or is it similar to the Aerialist Rogue, using Guardian, Predator, or Swarm as a base?
ANOTHER storm-based build for a class? Blech.
ANOTHER storm-based build for a class? Blech.
Agreed, this is pretty lame. Especially since we already have a Stormwarden (never mind that it's a Ranger )
Dont' forget the storm sorcerer.
And the storm-based warlock PP. And the storm based wizardry. And the Storm Sentinel, which is already a PP option for the Warden. And the Voice of Thunder for the bard. And the massive list of storm prestige classes in 3.5.
Sadly, Wizards has a major, well, fully-extended-rod-of-lordly-might for anything that has to do with Storms. Expect a whole lot more of them, unfortunately.
There's about a zero percent chance I'm going to take the time to look into it, but somehow I imagine the number of paragon path / class build / etc. options associated with storms isn't the much higher than the number of such associated with fire, or cold, or what have you. Calm down, guys. XD
I noticed a lot of storm things. Kind of makes up for all the fire-related stuff from previous editions.
Maybe next year there'll be a bunch of different acid class builds.
Now I'm just imagining what an Acid-Rager might be like.
I noticed a lot of storm things. Kind of makes up for all the fire-related stuff from previous editions.
Maybe next year there'll be a bunch of different acid class builds.
Now I'm just imagining what an Acid-Rager might be like.
Presumably, someone having a bad trip.
Or maybe a flashback.
Presumably, someone having a bad trip.Or maybe a flashback.
No no no, that's the Acid-Raver, easy mistake though 
Agreed, this is pretty lame. Especially since we already have a Stormwarden (never mind that it's a Ranger
That goes perfectly with the Shadow Assassin and the, well, shadow Assassin. Oh, and the Angelic Avenger vs the Avenger. lol
The Swarm Druid preview is up, and it is freakin' sweeeeeeeeeeeet. I've never been too interested in the Druid, but I sure as heck am now! =D Swarm of Locusts ftw!
I agree... it is awesomesauce. I also don't play druids (except for an Al Gore parody that couldn't pass up), but this makes me want to play one. And yes, I am naming him Willard.
Swarm of Locusts is a nice power. Another one that the party's Rogue, skulking on the edge of the burst radius, will love you for.
Ummmm...wow. Just wow. Swarm of locusts actually looks attractive enough for my Predator Druid to pick up. I'd trained out Pounce for Flame Seed so that I could have an AoE, but this power just combined the two! The only problem that I can see with the class feature is that it's more powerful than the Predator's (and therefore definitely more powerful than the Guardian's). I can see a lot of people making Swarm Druids just to get the DR but actually playing them more like Predator's or Guardians. I'm really hoping that the new powers for the original builds have really awesome riders that make those builds attractive (Predator already does in the PHB2, but the Guardians are almost always garbage).
Based on the previewed powers, and the suggested at-wills for the build, I'm guessing that the Swarm build leans very heavily toward Defender. Many of the powers reduce damage taken on top of the DR that they already get from their class feature, and the simple at-will Grasping Claws makes them sticky enough. With an optimized build, I wouldn't be surprised if Swarm Druids were potentially one of the toughest builds in the game (I'm just hoping their offense is good enough that they remain a threat, and therefore an attractive target). I'm guessing that the downside will be that Swarm powers won't have much control aspect to them. Scattered Form and Fog of Insects seems to suggest this. Creeping Doom is very controlly (and extremely awesome!), but it's also a level 25 Evocation.
And on a related note, we're finally getting a plant themed Druid paragon path (Whirling Samara)!!!!!
Ummmm...wow. Just wow. Swarm of locusts actually looks attractive enough for my Predator Druid to pick up. I'd trained out Pounce for Flame Seed so that I could have an AoE, but this power just combined the two! The only problem that I can see with the class feature is that it's more powerful than the Predator's (and therefore definitely more powerful than the Guardian's).
No it isn't, if you choose to have that class feature, you basically decide to trade away your AC. And having a better AC can very well reduce more damage than having a DR.
Ummmm...wow. Just wow. Swarm of locusts actually looks attractive enough for my Predator Druid to pick up. I'd trained out Pounce for Flame Seed so that I could have an AoE, but this power just combined the two! The only problem that I can see with the class feature is that it's more powerful than the Predator's (and therefore definitely more powerful than the Guardian's).
No it isn't, if you choose to have that class feature, you basically decide to trade away your AC. And having a better AC can very well reduce more damage than having a DR.
True, and as I was playing with possible stats that became more obvious. However, I posted a quick "build" in post #3 of this thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... This build was one of the first that sprung to mind after seeing the preview, and it essentially gives an Elf Swarm Druid 16s in WIS, CON, and DEX and a 13 in STR (for Shield prof). The result is a very tough character (AC 17 at level 1 with DR 3 against melee and ranged attacks) which sacrifices offense (16 in primary attack stat, plus the previewed Swarm powers seem to indicate a lack of controller functionality in order to enhance a secondary Defender role). Not too shabby, but also a relatively weak controller. I suppose I was originally overtaken by the shiny new class feature, but yes the tradeoff is pretty apparent now and I think I still prefer the Predator. The Swarm build is thematically very cool though, and I can't wait to see more of its powers!
Next build is summoner druid... since swarm is the next con build I want to assume summoner is the next dex build...
which to me I think they should be reversed, swarm seems like dex fits better and con seems better for summon. BUT I DIGRESS!
I dunno, I rather like the image that they evoked with the swarm survival; you don't dodge, you don't evade, you can just take the heat because a single scarab in your mass of insect fury doesn't matter. As long as you can hold together and keep the tide in motion, you can shrug off a hit or three.
Plus, I like the idea of a quick summoner, someone who calls on the forces of the wild...and then gets the hell out of the way. Being able to evade is essential if you are the source of your summoned power, otherwise your squishy self is getting plastered.
If the Swarm build were DEX based and got damage reduction, it would be way too powerful (secondary grants high AC and damage reduction). I'm not sure how I feel about the secondary stat of the Summoner build. The build may not even have its own class feature (like the aerialist Rogue didn't), in which case any of the other 3 builds could be a summoner. Hopefully that's not the case though, as I'd like to see a different class feature that directly benefits summons (and possibly conjurations?). If the secondary is DEX then the summons will have lower HP and you'll have fewer surges (which get spent when a summon dies). However, they'll have respectable AC. If the secondary is CON then the opposite will be true, and Guardians may very well make the best summoners (since CON determines their AC). So the Summoner's class feature is going to have to make up for the natural advantage that Guardians have, without being overpowered.
What if the Summoner Build uses the Guardian druid feature? Why reinvent the wheel when there's a worthwhile feature already there? Just like how Aerialist Rogue use the Artful Dodger feature.
What if the Summoner Build uses the Guardian druid feature? Why reinvent the wheel when there's a worthwhile feature already there? Just like how Aerialist Rogue use the Artful Dodger feature.
this
Well, we didn't see anythign mechanics wise from a DR standpoint as a class feature. Maybe they don't get it as a build feature but rather as riders in their powers. i guess we'll have to wait a couple weeks and see.
Yeah, I got the impression from the wording that there was only 1 new class feature. Maybe I'm misreading though. It didn't come out and say that I don't think.
Wow, just want to echo: Yeah, swarm druid? Awesome. And it really makes me want to play a Druid.
The Children of Winter in Eberron just got cooler.
Swarm druid is cool. I want to play a revenant that has a swarm of flies or something living inside him. That would be cool. I don't think the summoning druid will have a new class feature, but will just be another build. That way, it's neither a CON or DEX build.
Technically, even without a new build feature the summoner will still be a Con build. All summons are based off the PC's HP and healing surges, so they almost always want a high Con. The Wizard simply took it a step further by making an Implement specialization for it. Of course, teh Artificer is weird, because even though their summons are the same and still need Con, the summoner build uses Wis for every other power rider instead ... 
Actually, the picture that comes to my mind for a Swarm Druid is Willard.
dose the swarm druid turn into a swarm of insects like that old spider-man villain or control a swarm
The Swarm Druid TURNS INTO a swarm of insects, diminuitive mammals, lizards, worms, fairies, you name it.
In fact, there's a particular image of a Swarm Druid, and I like this concept very much, of a Swarm Druid who turns into a storm of leaves, all directed and falling to a single purpose. This is a concept that fits the build well with Wilden, who are also Optimal for the build. And turning into a swarm of leaves is pretty cool too. It's not a beast, which is different as well.
In fact, a Swarm Druid is probably less in touch with the Primal Beast because of the nature of their beast form being a hive mentality rather than a beast mentality.