Wroonnnngg! I was led on and then given the big rasberry yet again. Whats up Wizards?
The worst part about it is that now people will be speculating and arguing about it for another week, not to mention the week after of arguing about how aweful they are and what they should have been instead.
Yeah, it's really disappointing. =/
The worst part about it is that now people will be speculating and arguing about it for another week, not to mention the week after of arguing about how aweful they are and what they should have been instead.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if just once the fandom said something akin to, "I bet they wanted to assure that the multi-stats were solid, and were still hoping to squeze it in today! Man, I bet whatever they're turning out will be even better for the wait!"
I mean just once. It's not hard people.
So come back after Midnight PST and complain if its not there.
Yes, I think a message that said "woops, we did it again" would have been far better than nothing. Nothing gives an impression that they don't care about your response. They said they delayed the character builder update for those reasons, and I was ok with that. I don't like being left out to dry. That is poor customer service, and as a consumer I have a right and obligation to make my dissatisfaction known.
Wow! I really didn't mean for this to be a hate thread. Given the responses I guess I should have used different bait because I seemed to have attracted the wrong crowd.
Yes, I think a message that said "woops, we did it again" would have been far better than nothing. Nothing gives an impression that they don't care about your response. They said they delayed the character builder update for those reasons, and I was ok with that. I don't like being left out to dry. That is poor customer service, and as a consumer I have a right and obligation to make my dissatisfaction known.
There is still time to get the new racial stats up. I won't be crying foul until 5 PM Pacific.
That being said, given how anxiously we have been awaiting this article, it wasn't something they should have told us they were going to release until it was ready to go. The boards will absolutely light up if they aren't published by the end of the business day (as we can see, they are beginning to light up already ;) ).
I could care less if Ampersand is delayed by a day or two, but this is something I have been looking forward to for quite some time.
Wow! I really didn't mean for this to be a hate thread. Given the responses I guess I should have used different bait because I seemed to have attracted the wrong crowd.
Yes, I think a message that said "woops, we did it again" would have been far better than nothing. Nothing gives an impression that they don't care about your response. They said they delayed the character builder update for those reasons, and I was ok with that. I don't like being left out to dry. That is poor customer service, and as a consumer I have a right and obligation to make my dissatisfaction known.
There is still time to get the new racial stats up. I won't be crying foul until 5 PM Pacific.
That being said, given how anxiously we have been awaiting this article, it wasn't something they should have told us they were going to release until it was ready to go. The boards will absolutely light up if they aren't published by the end of the business day (as we can see, they are beginning to light up already ;) ).
I could care less if Ampersand is delayed by a day or two, but this is something I have been looking forward to for quite some time.
Now that is the kind of response I was looking for. A mature response from a like minded individual. Thank you.
Yes, I do hope they still bring it out by 5pm.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if just once the fandom said something akin to, "I bet they wanted to assure that the multi-stats were solid, and were still hoping to squeze it in today! Man, I bet whatever they're turning out will be even better for the wait!"
Eeeeeeh, I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where this is likely. It's just not that complicated of an article, and the balance implications are pretty few and far between.
They've already made it pretty clear they have no qualms in taking a race that had been giving feat support to overcome stat-favored class mismatch (tieflings, dwarves) the option for the stat the class(es) in question requires. They also don't seem to care about races with a nad bonus to compensate for stat-NAD redundancy maintaining the NAD bonus even after they lose the redundancy (eladrin) nor do they care if a race gains a possible redundancy (dwarves, elves)
So what more is there to get right? Mike Mearls makes the call or tells someone else to make the call and the flex stats are added. How is the call being made? Race/Class alignment goals? 3.5 stats used as a starting point? General "it feels right" fluff concerns? I'm not sure, but ultimately I don't think it matters, since it's all fairly arbitrary, and there would be no point in second guessing it.
In other words, there's nothing to "get right". I have no idea why there's a delay.
I remember reading somewhere that they would try to publish it this week but with the whole product release mess they were dealing with recently (my interpretation here) it might not happen. Just saying, 'cause I don't remember reading a promise but rather a maybe.
I believe that was the Janurary excuse.
I remember reading somewhere that they would try to publish it this week but with the whole product release mess they were dealing with recently (my interpretation here) it might not happen. Just saying, 'cause I don't remember reading a promise but rather a maybe.
What product release mess? The only new D&D product released last month was the DMs Screen, which came out as planned, there is no release this month, and Heroes of Shadow should be at the printer, if not back already and waiting to be shipped, for April release.
I remember reading somewhere that they would try to publish it this week but with the whole product release mess they were dealing with recently (my interpretation here) it might not happen. Just saying, 'cause I don't remember reading a promise but rather a maybe.
What product release mess? The only new D&D product released last month was the DMs Screen, which came out as planned, there is no release this month, and Heroes of Shadow should be at the printer, if not back already and waiting to be shipped, for April release.
I mean the whole re-scheduling of things and modifications to the future products catalog, and some content changing format and going online. There is obviously changes going on in the background that we are not aware of. I did not necessarily mean mess in a negative way, I'm sure it's a mess for them to deal with and somewhat sympathize, working in a tight-release-oriented business myself.
Something is going on, and I'm starting to be a bit bothered by it. But I bet WotC's even more bothered by this all.
It's not like some people who just decide they don't have to update regularly *coughMegacoughTocoughKyocoughcough*
Yeah, it's really disappointing. =/
The worst part about it is that now people will be speculating and arguing about it for another week, not to mention the week after of arguing about how aweful they are and what they should have been instead.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if just once the fandom said something akin to, "I bet they wanted to assure that the multi-stats were solid, and were still hoping to squeze it in today! Man, I bet whatever they're turning out will be even better for the wait!"
I mean just once. It's not hard people.
WotC's recent performance doesn't leave them with more benefit of a doubt in my books. It is now more a rule than an exception that articles are late. Things were much better when they still had monthly content calendar scheduled ahead.
- Only updates missing PH2 races (Shifter, Goliath, Gnome, Deva).
- Updates missing PH2 races and missing PG races (Genasi, Kalashtar, Warforged).
- Updates all missing races, save Revenant for obvious reasons (above, plus Gnoll and Shadar-kai).
- Updates all missing races, including monster races (above, plus Bladelings and the non-supported monster races).
I don't have percentages, but I can say that we have certainty for the top, though I don't know what they're going to do with Shifters. They might call them already a variable ability score boosted race.
The second one is pretty high. I can't see why they'd skip out of Genasi, at the very least, since they've gotten moderate support in Dragon recently – more souls. God they have so many souls now.
The third is what I hope for, but I'd but it somewhere significantly lower than the other two, what with WotC's current actions. The fourth I'd put at near 0% chance.
Possibilities:
- Only updates missing PH2 races (Shifter, Goliath, Gnome, Deva).
- Updates missing PH2 races and missing PG races (Genasi, Kalashtar, Warforged).
- Updates all missing races, save Revenant for obvious reasons (above, plus Gnoll and Shadar-kai).
- Updates all missing races, including monster races (above, plus Bladelings and the non-supported monster races).
I don't have percentages, but I can say that we have certainty for the top, though I don't know what they're going to do with Shifters. They might call them already a variable ability score boosted race.
The second one is pretty high. I can't see why they'd skip out of Genasi, at the very least, since they've gotten moderate support in Dragon recently – more souls. God they have so many souls now.
The third is what I hope for, but I'd but it somewhere significantly lower than the other two, what with WotC's current actions. The fourth I'd put at near 0% chance.
One could argue that the shifter already has a flex stat.
But CharBuilder also separates the two into different races, so I think WotC has a different idea of the Shifter race as two different subraces of the Shifter, much like the Knight and the Slayer are both subclasses of the Fighter.
This and the Warlord Essentializing were going to be the deciding factors if I resubbed for DDI this month. I know this article is supposed to be available to Outsiders as well, but the fact that it was late is the most upsetting thing to me. Like Salla said, s**t happens, but it is frustrating to see WotC unable to keep a simple schedule. I really hope that the reason for it not getting uploaded is because the employees were busy trying to keep safe from the probable gigantic waves that were supposed to hit the coasts on Friday. Still, if that was the case, we should be seeing the article on Monday.
Mudbunny said that WotC_Trevor said that wasn't the problem...
Personally I would have just let everyone think that, because the alternative is incompetence...
Maybe it is 5th edition that is taking away ressources.
Cause you IF 5th is indeed coming, it will take away ressources. That means less Dragon and Dungeon articles. So taking the material of books who were supposed to be published and use it to fill the DDI could be a sign.
And those books could have cost more then they would have brought in IF 5th is indeed coming cause less people will buy them since another edition might be coming (who buys books of an out dated edition?).
Or I could be crazy.
Eeh, I think that's a bit overoptimistic. Chances are better Hasbro is just downsizing a department that doesn't make enough profit.
Damon you are most likely right but I do have a nagging feeling that 5th will be a 2012 release. I have no real proof just a gut feeling.
If so, they'll be licencing the IP to another company, probably Paizo.
S**t happens. Get over it.
This is no longer a valid excuse. It's more like the WotC mission statement as of late. That, or "Continuously disappoint and divide our fanbase".
Seriously how long can that article be?! Do we really need fluff reason and design sidebars to explain WHY races get this or that stat? I can whip up a decent chart in ten minutes! It might not be perfect but it sure would be better than nothing! Geez.
Deva: +2 Wisdom, +2 Intelligence or +2 Charisma
Genasi: +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence or +2 Charisma
Gnoll: +2 Dexterity, +2 Strength or +2 Constitution
Gnome: +2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity or +2 Intelligence
Goliath: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom
Kalashtar: +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence or +2 Wisdom
Shadar-Kai: +2 Intelligence, +2 Constitution or +2 Dexterity
Shifter (Longtooth) : +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity or +2 Wisdom
Shifter (Razorclaw): +2 Dexterity, +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom
Warforged: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength or +2 Dexterity
There! Took me like ten minutes! Why putting that out there would take this long is beyond me.
Do we really need fluff reason and design sidebars to explain WHY races get this or that stat?
Actually, that would be really useful. I think that a lot of misunderstandings could be avoided if they at least stated their resonings on a lot of these things, even if they're not great reasonings. I'm still waiting to hear WTF they were thinking with the Half-Orc. If they give us a reasoning and it's bad then we know, but if it's bad and they don't give us any reasoning at all, then we're just stuck wondering what the hell.
On a side note, WTF with Kalashtar getting INT instead of DEX and Warforged getting DEX instead of INT? I disagree with some of your other ones, but at least I understand your other ones.
As always, not getting an article on time is... disappointing. Wizards of the Coast disappoints me that way, monthly. That's all there is to say.
On a side note, WTF with Kalashtar getting INT instead of DEX and Warforged getting DEX instead of INT? I disagree with some of your other ones, but at least I understand your other ones.
Honestly I only gave Kalashtar INT so they would be good Psion. I just don't know enough about them to pick a good other stat. Its also why I gave Genasi CHA so they could be good sorcerer ^^;
As for Warforged I figured that, as machine of wars, they would have impecable motor control and be good archers. It was really just improvisation on the spur of the moment ya know. I gotta admit I had no idea what to do with Shifters so I just made them essentially a single triad of stats but with different primary.
I'd like to know what YOU would give as third stats, out of curiosity.
Honestly I only gave Kalashtar INT so they would be good Psion. I just don't know enough about them to pick a good other stat.
Pretty much everywhere they're described in the fluff it seems to call out how graceful they are, so DEX seems like the obvious choice to me.
As for Warforged I figured that, as machine of wars, they would have impecable motor control and be good archers. It was really just improvisation on the spur of the moment ya know. I gotta admit I had no idea what to do with Shifters so I just made them essentially a single triad of stats but with different primary.
I'd like to know what YOU would give as third stats, out of curiosity.
I really don't see how anything other than INT is reasonable for them. Their relative social and emotional ineptitude means that WIS and CHA are out of the question (they even got penalties to these back in 3.5), and absolutely nothing about them strikes me as particularly dexterous. If anything, I should think that being made of stone and metal and wood should make them rather inflexible and slow. They'd be perfectly believable to me with a speed of 5 or a DEX penalty (if 4E did penalties, that is). INT, on the other hand, sounds perfect for them to me. Not even just "good enough because nothing else fits" but absolutely perfect. A Warforged Archer or Rogues doesn't sound archetypal or stereotypical at all to me, but a Warforged Artificer or Wizard definitely does.
Besides, as much as some people love to deny it, Warforged are robots. They are technology, and even if you have a problem with the word "robot" and its connotations, you cannot deny that as a PC race in D&D they fill the exact same mechanical niche that a robot race would and offer the exact same role-playing opportunities that a robot race would. And you can't have playable robots without opening up the door for the whole "They're smarter than they were supposed to be" trope, whether that be positive or negative.
As for the Shifters, what you did for them was pretty much the same thing I would do: STR + DEX/WIS and DEX + STR/WIS. I think that WIS + STR/DEX like a lot of people are suggesting is just too much of a cop-out. It emphasized their similarities instead of their differences and leaves them so inflexible compared to other races, and if anything, Shifters could use a boost. Allowing them to cover three possible ability score bonus combinations instead of only two isn't necessarily enough, but it'd be nice and perfectly thematically appropriate.
As for Kalashtar I really aren't all that well versed in them.
Poor Shifters really need a boost, if nothing else they could use some interesting feats and maybe racial powers like the Shades are getting.
So...
Deva: +2 Wisdom, +2 Intelligence or +2 Charisma
Genasi: +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence or +2 Charisma
Gnoll: +2 Dexterity, +2 Strength or +2 Constitution
Gnome: +2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity or +2 Intelligence
Goliath: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom
Kalashtar: +2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity or +2 Wisdom
Shadar-Kai: +2 Intelligence, +2 Constitution or +2 Dexterity
Shifter (Longtooth) : +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity or +2 Wisdom
Shifter (Razorclaw): +2 Dexterity, +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom
Warforged: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength or +2 Intelligence
I'm not all that satisfied with the Deva and Gnoll. I also wasn't sure which stat to use as main stat for Shadar-Kai and CON was the only stat that made sense for people who look death in the face on a daily basis.
So would you agree with CON as the primary then?
Definitely, yes. People keep wanting a CON/INT race, and this should be it. Not Gnomes. Not Genasi. Warforged.
And maybe Shadar-Kai too, I guess, but I don't really care too much about them.
Poor Shifters really need a boost, if nothing else they could use some interesting feats and maybe racial powers like the Shades are getting.
At this point I'm not sure that anything could save them other than a complete racial re-write. I've been house-ruling their racial power to be a Free Action triggered when they become bloodied, and that's helped a little bit, but it really just sucks not to have any features that you can attribute to your race unless you're below half HP. =/
> make them rather inflexible and slow.
They're not particularly inflexible or slow, especially given that most of their body is livewood (and just as flexible as anyone else).
That said, Int does fit their theme and their old-E stats. There, they were +2 Con/-2 Wis/-2 Cha, and the various NPCs in the text and artwork were often arcanists.
Deva – Wisdom, Int or Cha
Genasi – Intelligence, Str or Cha
Gnoll – Constitution, Str or Dex
Gnome – Charisma, Dex or Int
Goliath – Constitution, Str or Dex
Kalashtar – Wisdom, Dex or Cha
Shadar-kai – Dexterity, Int or Con
Shifter (Longtooth) – Strength, Dex or Wis
Shifter (Razorclaw) – Dexterity, Str or Wis
Warforged – Constitution, Str or Int
Goliaths, as much as I'd love them to have Wisdom, have expressed a strong push for Dexterity in Dark Sun material – so much that the Racial Paragon Path features Dex as one of their attributes. Also, Con/Dex lines up with one of the Battlemind builds, and while Con/Wis does as well, Battlemind in general is a perfect race-class match-up for Goliaths (the emphasis on competition is present in both). Goliaths are like the Olympic Games athletes of races, and they emphasis bouldering across mountains (Dex) as much as their awesome strength.
Shadar-kai endure the harsh climate and melancholy of the Shadowfell through their fortitude and through extreme experience, the pain/pleasure effect, and such. This would place Constitution as the key score.
Gnolls have always seemed to be more about blood and carnage than about speed and accuracy to me. Also, a Rageblood Barbarian or Battlerager Fighter makes a lot more sense to me than a Stonefist Monk for Gnolls to me. But this could go either way, really.
Genasi as a race are fighting against their inner chaos with supreme mental discipline. Intelligence should be their first and primary ability, used to control their elemental power. I agree Charisma should be added, emphasising their wild, raw emotions, but not in the place of their control over them.
Gnomes I have a hard time deciding between Cha, Dex/Int and Int, Dex/Cha. On one hand, they are master tricksters, which Charisma would emphasise. On the other hand, they are extremely intelligent, and I could see more scholarly Gnomes, especially in Eberron. There's also the argument for Wis in there for Tinker Gnomes (the argument is usually Con, but Tinkerer Artificer cares more about Wisdom than Constitution…). I generally decided that their nature reflecting trickster faeries – Pucks, diminuitive elves, gnomes of course, various descriptions of folkloric goblins and kobolds (quite different from D&D goblins and kobolds), brownies, leprauchauns, etc – these emphaise tricksters, so I went with Cha first.
I agree about Shifter, Warforged, Kalashtar, and Deva. In fact, I was an early proponent of the Wis, Dex/Cha Kalashtar, since the grace is strongly present, as well as the idea that they'd be Monks makes a lot more sense than the idea they'd be Psions. Most people at the time they were released complained about the lack of Int because they expected the upcoming Psion to be Int, and Kalashtar were the only "Psionic" race at the time. But Kalashtar are much more likely to be Ardents, I'd say, than Psions, and definitely Monks. So Dex makes sense.
...And we've done their work for them. Ok, WotC all you gotta do now is copy and paste. Are you capable of that?
These threads hav been cropping up, complete with explanations, since PH3, why its taken them so long to spit out one themselves is astounding.
...And we've done their work for them. Ok, WotC all you gotta do now is copy and paste. Are you capable of that?
These threads hav been cropping up, complete with explanations, since PH3, why its taken them so long to spit out one themselves is astounding.
It is truly baffling.
If not, my prediction is they delayed it so they could make it one.
Not that it matters to me.
Was this on the ToC as an insider only article?
If not, my prediction is they delayed it so they could make it one.
Not that it matters to me.
I doubt that.
Was this on the ToC as an insider only article?
If not, my prediction is they delayed it so they could make it one.
Not that it matters to me.
I doubt that.
What, that it matters to me?
Why would I care?
Was this on the ToC as an insider only article?
If not, my prediction is they delayed it so they could make it one.
Not that it matters to me.
I doubt that.
What, that it matters to me?
Why would I care?
No that they'd make it an Insider only article. I should have been more clear.
No that they'd make it an Insider only article. I should have been more clear.
I'm just tryng to figure out a reason it was delayed. I can't think of another.
No that they'd make it an Insider only article. I should have been more clear.
I'm just tryng to figure out a reason it was delayed. I can't think of another.
I'm guessing a combination of lassitude and overburden.
Never do today what you can put off til tomorrow.
It's up now.
I see the shadow races up, but not the whole list of existing races. Can you post a link for it?
Updated.. found it
And the punchline:
Deva: Wis, Int/Cha
Genasi: Int, Str/Con
Goliath: Str, Con/Wis
Gnome: Int, Dex/Cha
Kalashtar: Cha, Int/Wis
Revenant: Dex, Con/Cha
Shadar-Kai: Dex, Int/Wis
Shifter: Wis, Str/Dex (no change)
Warforged: Con, Str/Int
I think it has more to do with Wizards second guessing everything and flip flopping on what to release and what to hold back/cancel.
Yeah, the fans aren't exactly making it easy on them. Someone rips into them for anything they do. There is no 'right way' that will make all - or even most - of the fans happy. Attempts to unify the fan base only further fragment it.
Part of the problem was the need to put out product at a pace that would deliver something like an acceptable revenue stream to the parent company. When D&D was a TSR property, and TSR was run by gaming geeks, the pace of release was slow, and the quality was good (for it's time). When 'real businesspersons' took over, the pace of publishing exploded, and, while the publishing standards (more professional illustrations & typesetting, for instance) improved, the quality of the content fell off. You'd think that WotC would have shaped things up, but they weren't independent for long, and they were a CCG company...
My disagreement with some of the others is minor, and more mechanical than narrative. Example: Deva should have been Int+Wis/Cha to avoid the creation of yet another redundant NAD bonus without a compensating racial bonus, but I see the narritive reason for the choice of stable Wis as entirely valid, so it doesn't bother me.
Kalashtar probably should have been Wis+Cha/Dex. I understand the desire to make them decent psions, but the lore backs Kalashtar monks much more strongly, and their history suggests they generally want to stay hidden from the bad things of the dream world, so tossing around obvious psychic power willy nilly would seem imprudent.
Most of the other races I agree with, don't care about, or don't have a strong opinion on.
Crimsom will be pissed they shafted the Shifter again. Maybe its time for a 'Winning Race: Shifter' article?
Where's the Gnoll love?
Am I hoping for too much, is there a reason they can't just finish the job.
Some unwritten law that says things must be left unfinished?
I just don't understand?
Just one more stat! That's all!! Just one!
Crimsom will be pissed they shafted the Shifter again. Maybe its time for a 'Winning Race: Shifter' article?
I would be pissed if I really cared about the Shifter or if I really expected them to do something other than this, but neither of those ifs are true, so while I am disappointed, I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm pissed.
In fact, in general, I have to say that I'm pretty pleased. The Deva, Gnome, and Warforged came out absolutely perfectly, and I'm really glad that they didn't cave into the CON pressue for the Gnomes. Goliath don't get quite what I would have preferred, but they got what I expected, which I understand and am perfectly okay with. Genasi got CON, which I was sort of hoping against, but really, none of the Genasi racial ability score bonuses make much sense to me at all; it pretty much just feels like they're the Sword-Mage-Race anyway, so it's not like there's much to ruin. My worst disappointment was really the Kalashtar. Despite everybody speculating INT, I really thought that they should and thought that they would get DEX. I can even live with that one though. All in all, nothing here was nearly as bad as the Half-Orc. I'll call this article a success.
In fact, in general, I have to say that I'm pretty pleased. The Deva, Gnome, and Warforged came out absolutely perfectly...
I'm kind of surprised you'd support the creation of two more redundant NAD bonus classes without the +1 racial nad bonus to compensate. The misuse of that particular racial bonus type has alwasy beena pet peeve of yours, and now that so many races need them and dont have them (or don't need them but have them) it's getting a harder line to tow.
Not as hard as "no racial penalties in 4e" of course. That one's just dead at this point.
I'm kind of surprised you'd support the creation of two more redundant NAD bonus classes without the +1 racial nad bonus to compensate. The misuse of that particular racial bonus type has alwasy beena pet peeve of yours, and now that so many races need them and dont have them (or don't need them but have them) it's getting a harder line to tow.
It's really puzzling that they haven't figured out that they can simply do something like...
Deva Insight: If you selected to gain +2 CHA instead of +2 INT, then you gain a +1 racial bonus to Reflex.
...or...
Gnome Cunning: If you selected to gain +2 DEX instead of +2 CHA, then you gain a +1 racial bonus to Will.
... to fix all of these problems, but I've always been of the mind that I'd much rather the racial ability score bonuses come out thematically perfect than mechanically perfect.
That said, my views on racial defense bonuses has not changed. They can serve a particular purpose and should exist when that purpose needs to be fulfilled, but they're still just too boring when they're unnecessary. I've come to accept the fact that I'm a lot more of a perfectionist when it comes to racial design than the actual developers are, and that's okay, so I'll still be using the developers' mistakes to help me make my points about why certain things are good or bad.
Not as hard as "no racial penalties in 4e" of course. That one's just dead at this point.
You know, that weirdest thing about that one is that at least back when it was just Small Size that was the problem is made some sort of logical and thematic sense, but now what they're doing is just ridiculous. Neither of these Shadows races need their penalties mechanically or thematically. It's absolutely puzzling. Again, however, it still doesn't change the fact that racial pigeon-holing is not good and that racial penalties are to be avoided because they invariably lead to racial pigeon-holing. These will be more mistakes that I'll be using as examples of what not to do.
All that time, and all that delay, and all that speculation.... and they forgot to put gnolls in? FACEPALM.
I sort of wish that I cared more because I feel like I should, but I don't. I'm pretty sure that Gnolls are the most forgotten PC race. Anyway, it seems like a simple oversight, and I'd put money on their updating the article by the end of the month to include them.
Crimsom will be pissed they shafted the Shifter again. Maybe its time for a 'Winning Race: Shifter' article?
I would be pissed if I really cared about the Shifter or if I really expected them to do something other than this, but neither of those ifs are true, so while I am disappointed, I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm pissed.
Aww that's too bad :p I really like your opinions on racial design and I think you got a much better eye for balanceand interesting racial features than the actual developers. You're the golden standard I was aiming for with my Limulians :D
I'd like to see you tackle the Shifters like you tackled the Minotaur. I'm sure you could come up with something interesting.
On another point, I like the table at the end, listing all the races and that the Shifters stayed with the choice of longtooth or razorclaw determination.
Uhmm... Gnolls are not a published player character race, neither is Kobold, Orc, Bugbear, Goblin...
On another point, I like the table at the end, listing all the races and that the Shifters stayed with the choice of longtooth or razorclaw determination.
Gnolls got a Dragon Article which gave them a playable statblock and racial feats, same as the Shadar-Kai.
So, Uhmm... yeah. They are.
Yet it appeared in the article.
There is no difference between the Shadar-kai article, the Revenant article, the Minotaur article, and the Gnoll article, except that the Revenant is going to be reprinted in Heroes of Shadow, Minotaurs were reprinted in Player's Handbook 3, Shadar-kai got reprinted in Dragon Annual 2009, and Gnolls haven't been reprinted or announced for a reprinting.
Well, also the Gnoll article was pretty shoddy compared to the other three, and the Gnoll article was free, while the other three require a subscription. @_@
Difference.... Shadar-Kai is actually in print, in a book. The Gnoll... is not.
Doesn't matter, it's still a legal race for organized play.
Uhmm... Gnolls are not a published player character race, neither is Kobold, Orc, Bugbear, Goblin...
On another point, I like the table at the end, listing all the races and that the Shifters stayed with the choice of longtooth or razorclaw determination.
Electronic publishing is in fact, by every legal and common sense of the term, publishing. Therefore, Gnolls are a published PC race. As usual, you are wrong.
If you had said Gnolls have not been printed as a PC race you'd be right (unless one counts the LFR rules). But you didn't.
Uhmm... Gnolls are not a published player character race, neither is Kobold, Orc, Bugbear, Goblin...
On another point, I like the table at the end, listing all the races and that the Shifters stayed with the choice of longtooth or razorclaw determination.
Electronic publishing is in fact, by every legal and common sense of the term, publishing. Therefore, Gnolls are a published PC race. As usual, you are wrong.
If you had said Gnolls have not been printed as a PC race you'd be right (unless one counts the LFR rules). But you didn't.
There is electronic publishing (commonly referred to as web publishing, most likely connected to a monthly service that is about 20 bucks a year, though DDi is way over priced) and then there is the pale ghost that is still named Dragon. The Gnoll was fan service, and since then Wizard's has towed the line on keeping Character Races and Monsters separate.
It, the Gnoll, isn't considered a part of the Character Races, as evidenced by it's exclusion from the article. I consider it the same as the Player stats for Monsters in the back of the MM's, DM's permission, most likely not used. That it has use in official play is good for thoses that want it, but the overall point still stands, it isn't in print and not a part of the core Player Races. That may change in a future Essentials project, but for now...
I'm pretty sure that Gnolls are the most forgotten PC race.
Er... how about Bladeling? Bladelings got one racial feat and have never, ever been mentioned in anything other than the one section of Manual of the Planes in which they featured.
I think it has more to do with Wizards second guessing everything and flip flopping on what to release and what to hold back/cancel.
Yeah, the fans aren't exactly making it easy on them. Someone rips into them for anything they do. There is no 'right way' that will make all - or even most - of the fans happy. Attempts to unify the fan base only further fragment it.
Part of the problem was the need to put out product at a pace that would deliver something like an acceptable revenue stream to the parent company. When D&D was a TSR property, and TSR was run by gaming geeks, the pace of release was slow, and the quality was good (for it's time). When 'real businesspersons' took over, the pace of publishing exploded, and, while the publishing standards (more professional illustrations & typesetting, for instance) improved, the quality of the content fell off. You'd think that WotC would have shaped things up, but they weren't independent for long, and they were a CCG company...
LOL! All WotC needs to do is communicate. Announce plans and listen to feedback. Then theres no unpleasant surprises.
Anyway, seems theyr doing a bit better in that department.
Deva (Perfect), mental entity: Always Wise (perceptive guardian angel) - Charismatic angelic glory / divine Intellect.
Genasi (Interesting), Fireball, Wall of Ice: Intellect of an element, always Arcane Swordmage, flashy elemental combatant - Tough Arcane Artificer imbuing items with elemental power and mind -altered Starlock, Gish Wizard, Evocation Mage.
Goliath (Perfect), strong as rock, and as patient: Always Strong Primal Warden - Tough Barbarian / Wise Druid and Shaman, even Seeker.
Kalashtar (Interesting): Always Charismatic heart-bending vibration-kinetic Bard. Wise enlightened Ardent. Intelligent Telepath and mind-bending Enchanting Mage.
Shadar-Kai (Surprising), the Necromongers of Pitch Black: always Dexterous Shadowy sharpshooting Rogues, ghosting thru gloom - Wise Monks contemplating the abyss, obsessive Avengers and Invokers of deathly spirit.
There is electronic publishing (commonly referred to as web publishing, most likely connected to a monthly service that is about 20 bucks a year, though DDi is way over priced) and then there is the pale ghost that is still named Dragon. The Gnoll was fan service, and since then Wizard's has towed the line on keeping Character Races and Monsters separate.
It, the Gnoll, isn't considered a part of the Character Races, as evidenced by it's exclusion from the article. I consider it the same as the Player stats for Monsters in the back of the MM's, DM's permission, most likely not used. That it has use in official play is good for thoses that want it, but the overall point still stands, it isn't in print and not a part of the core Player Races. That may change in a future Essentials project, but for now...
Because demon-men, draogn-men, vampire-men, werecreature-men, crystal-men, plant-men, orc-men, BUG-MEN, etc. are totally not monsters ...
There is electronic publishing (commonly referred to as web publishing, most likely connected to a monthly service that is about 20 bucks a year, though DDi is way over priced) and then there is the pale ghost that is still named Dragon. The Gnoll was fan service, and since then Wizard's has towed the line on keeping Character Races and Monsters separate.
It, the Gnoll, isn't considered a part of the Character Races, as evidenced by it's exclusion from the article. I consider it the same as the Player stats for Monsters in the back of the MM's, DM's permission, most likely not used. That it has use in official play is good for thoses that want it, but the overall point still stands, it isn't in print and not a part of the core Player Races. That may change in a future Essentials project, but for now...
Because demon-men, draogn-men, vampire-men, werecreature-men, crystal-men, plant-men, orc-men, BUG-MEN, etc. are totally not monsters ...
Nope, not at all
Gnoll's flavour pretty much never says they're anything but savage murderous demon-worshipping blood-for-the-blood-god-prince hyenas, unless you're in Eberron. The article featuring them even used Eberron as an example of how you could make Gnolls not so eevil in your Campaign, without even giving a flavourful reason you'd encounter unaligned or good Gnolls in the Nentir Vale. Why? Because there isn't, at least at this point.
The article was mired with flavour issues; mired with mechanical issues; went into territory WotC didn't want to traverse regularly (as they said that Drow carried a lot of "evil race guy turned good" tokens, and they didn't want to spend all of them so quickly and easily, since it would take away from Drow; it's no wonder that Gnolls have been shoved under the carpet by WotC. THEY DON'T WANT US TO PLAY THEM.
THEY DON'T WANT US TO PLAY THEM.
So thats why they put them in the original Character Builder along with the Bladelings, I knew there had to be a good reason.
Well, to be fair, those demon-men, dragon-men, vampire-men, werecreature-men, crystal-men, plant-men, orc-men, BUG-MEN, etc. have flavour that says they're at least Unaligned, if not often outright Good.
Gnoll's flavour pretty much never says they're anything but savage murderous demon-worshipping blood-for-the-blood-god-prince hyenas, unless you're in Eberron. The article featuring them even used Eberron as an example of how you could make Gnolls not so eevil in your Campaign, without even giving a flavourful reason you'd encounter unaligned or good Gnolls in the Nentir Vale. Why? Because there isn't, at least at this point.
The article was mired with flavour issues; mired with mechanical issues; went into territory WotC didn't want to traverse regularly (as they said that Drow carried a lot of "evil race guy turned good" tokens, and they didn't want to spend all of them so quickly and easily, since it would take away from Drow; it's no wonder that Gnolls have been shoved under the carpet by WotC. THEY DON'T WANT US TO PLAY THEM.
Which qualifies, at best, as weak reasoning given that fluff can be altered. Hey, look, in my game world, Gnolls aren't linked to demons, so there's no reason they don't make fine PCs. I would like my full PC writeup now.
Well, to be fair, those demon-men, dragon-men, vampire-men, werecreature-men, crystal-men, plant-men, orc-men, BUG-MEN, etc. have flavour that says they're at least Unaligned, if not often outright Good.
Gnoll's flavour pretty much never says they're anything but savage murderous demon-worshipping blood-for-the-blood-god-prince hyenas, unless you're in Eberron. The article featuring them even used Eberron as an example of how you could make Gnolls not so eevil in your Campaign, without even giving a flavourful reason you'd encounter unaligned or good Gnolls in the Nentir Vale. Why? Because there isn't, at least at this point.
The article was mired with flavour issues; mired with mechanical issues; went into territory WotC didn't want to traverse regularly (as they said that Drow carried a lot of "evil race guy turned good" tokens, and they didn't want to spend all of them so quickly and easily, since it would take away from Drow; it's no wonder that Gnolls have been shoved under the carpet by WotC. THEY DON'T WANT US TO PLAY THEM.
Which qualifies, at best, as weak reasoning given that fluff can be altered. Hey, look, in my game world, Gnolls aren't linked to demons, so there's no reason they don't make fine PCs. I would like my full PC writeup now.
As would I. They did it for Drow and Minotaurs, why not Gnolls? I know the background stuff, but why not something the magazine that was rather explicit about everything.
Minotaurs look like Tauren. Warcraft is popular. Tauren are popular. Minotaurs are thus popular.
Gnolls don't have the same currency. That's my best explanation.
Note that I'd love more material on Gnolls – in my setting, they're half-Shark, half-Jackal, half-human hybrids (yes, I know that makes one and a half). But despite the reputation, there's societies of them that are primal preservers of the desert and it's wilderness.
I love them. I'm attached to them. But I also know they don't hold enough currency for them to get attention anytime soon.
Drow and Minotaur have currency. Drow are… Drow. They're Dark Elves. They're Drizzt's race. Everyone wanted to play a Drow Ranger.
Minotaurs look like Tauren. Warcraft is popular. Tauren are popular. Minotaurs are thus popular.
Gnolls don't have the same currency. That's my best explanation.
Note that I'd love more material on Gnolls – in my setting, they're half-Shark, half-Jackal, half-human hybrids (yes, I know that makes one and a half). But despite the reputation, there's societies of them that are primal preservers of the desert and it's wilderness.
I love them. I'm attached to them. But I also know they don't hold enough currency for them to get attention anytime soon.
I know you engage in hyperbole, but I've only met one gamer in my entire life who wanted to play a Drow Ranger.
I suppose my point is that I don't think WotC should be making the decision as to what is and isn't appropriate in home games on the basis of fluff, which may be different in our games (or perhaps we don't mind the 'one good guy in a so-called evil race' trope). They should provide us with balanced stats for everything; we choose what we want to play in our games, and if they don't want us playing Gnolls in organized play, they can forbid it there.
I know you engage in hyperbole, but I've only met one gamer in my entire life who wanted to play a Drow Ranger.
You are a very lucky person.
I know you engage in hyperbole, but I've only met one gamer in my entire life who wanted to play a Drow Ranger.
You are a very lucky person.
Indeed, noobs abound that wish to play that combo. Personally if I were to play a drow, I'd go for a Paladin Classic devoted to Sehanine.
I know you engage in hyperbole, but I've only met one gamer in my entire life who wanted to play a Drow Ranger.
You are a very lucky person.
I wouldn't go that far. He was kind of a douche. Here's the basic story.
He makes a drow ranger, two scimitars. Pretty sure it was 3e, which made it really BAD idea (-4 to hit on all attacks!), but he was incredibly pumped and excited and raring to go, so I just shrugged and went with it. He may have actually named the character Drizz't, I can't recall ... the game, for the record, did NOT take place in the Forgotten Realms.
At 1st level, he starts trying to do all this crazy stuff that is way beyond his skill levels ... and most of all, being really frustrated because he can't hit the broad side of a barn because of the attack penalty with his weapons and his middling strength. He's also trying to do everything himself, and getting his butt kicked for it. Eventually ...
Him: "This is bull****! I'm Drizz't Do'Urden!"
Me: "Who?"
Him: (stammering) "Drizz't Do'Urden? Main character of (list of books)? The drow who (background details?) The guy who (list of accomplishments)?"
Me: "Never heard of him." (Which was the truth, BTW)
Him: ***BSOD***
He did play a Tempest fighter, but eventually switched to Warlord when...regretable arguments happened that cost us previous leader player.
Oddly enough my party also has a Gnoll Ruthless Ruffian Rogue currently.
There are a LOT of players out there who play Drow Rangers. Maybe not everyone – I do engage in hyperbole sometimes. But this is a case where there's a large number of players who turn to Drizzt as let's just say, "inspiration," for their character.
Honestly, besides reducing issues with MAD and the problems with V-Classes, I see the making of Scout Dex/Wis and granting Drow Dex–Wis or Cha for their ability score bonuses a way for players to emulate Drizzt. @_@
Aren't scouts just archers, not two-weapon fighters?
Honestly, besides reducing issues with MAD and the problems with V-Classes, I see the making of Scout Dex/Wis and granting Drow Dex–Wis or Cha for their ability score bonuses a way for players to emulate Drizzt. @_@
Aren't scouts just archers, not two-weapon fighters?
Nope! The Hunter is a Martial/Primal Controller subclass of the Ranger, that is an archer using either a Bow Style or a Crossbow Style. The Scout is a Martial/Primal Striker subclass of the Ranger, that is a two-weapon skirmisher that uses either a Light Blade offhand weapon or a Handaxe offhand weapon in addition to a primary hand weapon (suggested a heavy blade or a heavy axe respectively).
Honestly, besides reducing issues with MAD and the problems with V-Classes, I see the making of Scout Dex/Wis and granting Drow Dex–Wis or Cha for their ability score bonuses a way for players to emulate Drizzt. @_@
Aren't scouts just archers, not two-weapon fighters?
No that's Hunters, Scouts are two weapon fighters.
Strangest thing, I wouldn't actually stat Drizzt as a ranger in 4e. I'm fairly certain he's a hybrid Ranger/Barbarian who took Hybrid Talent: Whirling Slayer, then loaded primarily on ranger powers with the odd Whirling Slayer power and one daily rage (that "Hunter" thing of his), thus allowing him to double-down on targets when he needs to and show off by slaughtering minions when he doesn't.
I can't believe I'm participating in this debate, but ..
From what you say there,I'd still stat him as a Ranger, but have him enter the Stormwarden paragon path, which lets you deal autodamage equal to your DEX to an adjacent enemy. With Twin Strike, that's 3 minions vivisected a round.
Varis, the elf ranger in the DnD comic, is a Scout that uses a bow most of the time. He only switches to his hand axes when enemies get too close.