not sure if they made any mention of a ninja class anywhere but i'm still asking, now that there is an assassin, is there gonna be a ninja? if so what role is he gonna fill on the shadow source roster? are we gonna have 2 shadow strikers like we do with the arcane source?
Ninja, depending on what kind of Ninja, is either a Rogue, an Assassin, or some multiclass or hybrid of the two... depending how much he depends on mystic powers.
Isn't a ninja just a culturally-specific Assassin?
A ninja is definitely a rogue.
Ninja = spy, assassin, infiltrator
if it's gonna be a shadow class i don't see its existence as being very viable. what new thing could a ninja bring to the table without simply being a reflavoured rogue
Isn't a ninja just a culturally-specific Assassin?
i guess
Right, thats what i would go with
Assassin=Ninja
But theres plenty of home brew ninja classes floating around, but as for WOTC doing an official ninja? I dont know, they probably feel the Assassin covers it, but if they ever put out a 4e Oriental Adventures ninja will sure to be in there. I could definatly see ninjas having the shadow power source or possibly Psychic since that has replaced Ki.
I really want a katana in 4e. I could see it being like a long sword but with an extra +1 to hit or something?
Right, thats what i would go with
Assassin=Ninja
But theres plenty of home brew ninja classes floating around, but as for WOTC doing an official ninja? I dont know, they probably feel the Assassin covers it, but if they ever put out a 4e Oriental Adventures ninja will sure to be in there. I could definatly see ninjas having the shadow power source or possibly Psychic since that has replaced Ki.
I really want a katana in 4e. I could see it being like a long sword but with an extra +1 to hit or something?
A katana is merely a reflavored longsword or bastard sword, whichever you prefer.
Isn't a ninja just a culturally-specific Assassin?
I don't think we can be quite that clear-cut in D&D (it's more of a historically accurate statement than a culturally accurate statement).
As such, I would go with the idea of Roge or Assassin or Rogue/Assassin (via multiclass or hybrid), adjusting the mix as needed to achieve what you want.
A katana is merely a reflavored longsword or bastard sword, whichever you prefer.
Yes that would work, but i think they should be a little different. 3e put them as a masterwork bastard sword, and i liked that idea but i never really saw the katana as a bastard sword. I mean they're about the same length but the Bastard sword has a broader blade and made more for hacking, whereas the katana was a cutting weapon. Might be slightly off topic but you cant have ninjas with out katanas!
A katana is merely a reflavored longsword or bastard sword, whichever you prefer.
Yes that would work, but i think they should be a little different. 3e put them as a masterwork bastard sword, and i liked that idea but i never really saw the katana as a bastard sword. I mean they're about the same length but the Bastard sword has a broader blade and made more for hacking, whereas the katana was a cutting weapon. Might be slightly off topic but you cant have ninjas with out katanas!
1. The katana is a longsword. The curvature of the blade is merely fluff.
2. Ninjas didn't use katanas. Samurais did.
it would be a scimitar since it's just a slashing weapon
A katana is merely a reflavored longsword or bastard sword, whichever you prefer.
Yes that would work, but i think they should be a little different. 3e put them as a masterwork bastard sword, and i liked that idea but i never really saw the katana as a bastard sword. I mean they're about the same length but the Bastard sword has a broader blade and made more for hacking, whereas the katana was a cutting weapon. Might be slightly off topic but you cant have ninjas with out katanas!
1. The katana is a longsword. The curvature of the blade is merely fluff.
2. Ninjas didn't use katanas. Samurais did.
1. I disagree there, sure theyre similiar, but a lot more goes into making a katana, the steel is folded several times, the blade is carbonized, and it could really hold an edge, unlike your typical europeon long sword.
2. ok yeah you got me there, ok so ninjas use ninja-tos.
it would be a scimitar since it's just a slashing weapon
Yeah i think that fits a little better. But still i think katanas should get a +1 to hit, just my opinion.
1. I disagree there, sure theyre similiar, but a lot more goes into making a katana, the steel is folded several times, the blade is carbonized, and it could really hold an edge, unlike your typical europeon long sword.
Mechanically in game thats all it is.
The Ninja-To never existed. It's a hollywood fabrication. "Ninja" never existed either. They're a fabrication of a hollywood playwright from the Edo period 
Their actual name is Shinobi No Mono... just so happens that Nin and Ja share the same characters and are easy to say :P
Back on topic... the assassin killed the ninja and took it's stuff.
Ohgawd, Japanese fanboi. I should have seen it coming.
The Japanese had to do that folding thing because their iron deposits were crappy; otherwise, the sword would have fallen apart. A katana was no better than the swords made by any other country on the planet, despite what anime tells you.
Not a fanboi. Just the whole "They used Ninja-To" thing had to be remedied I would have been happy to see a 4e ninja if we didn't have the rogue. The 4e rogue does the job extremely well for that kinda character though. It feels more like a "ninja" than a thief imo.
First off, the rogue is a ninja. Just plain is. Daggermaster is a freaking Shirken Artist. They've given you the tools, just use them.
Secondly, I didn't really think we needed an 'assassin' class, as the Rogue's Paragon Paths labeled it as such, but even so, it's a ninja too.
Ninja are just assassins. Really. Thieves, Spies, and Assassins. Throw in Alchemy for Smoke Bombs, and you have everything you ever have needed to be a Ninja in PHB1 and AV1. I don't really think we need to dedicate classes to really really nitch rolls. The Assassin already is pressing into that territory, and I don't think it's necessary outside of satisfying some really really old school gamers.
1. I disagree there, sure theyre similiar, but a lot more goes into making a katana, the steel is folded several times, the blade is carbonized, and it could really hold an edge, unlike your typical europeon long sword.
Please. Toledo Steel holds up to Japanese Steel anyday.
The Ninja-To never existed. It's a hollywood fabrication. "Ninja" never existed either. They're a fabrication of a hollywood playwright from the Edo period
Back on topic... the assassin killed the ninja and took it's stuff.
What are you talking about? i have an authentic Ninja-To, and its very real!!!!
It was never the "official ninja weapon". They were given to "ninja" by hollywood
First off, the rogue is a ninja. Just plain is. Daggermaster is a freaking Shirken Artist. They've given you the tools, just use them.
Secondly, I didn't really think we needed an 'assassin' class, as the Rogue's Paragon Paths labeled it as such, but even so, it's a ninja too.
Ninja are just assassins. Really. Thieves, Spies, and Assassins. Throw in Alchemy for Smoke Bombs, and you have everything you ever have needed to be a Ninja in PHB1 and AV1. I don't really think we need to dedicate classes to really really nitch rolls. The Assassin already is pressing into that territory, and I don't think it's necessary outside of satisfying some really really old school gamers.
i agree with you 100% which is why i made this thread. i thought rogues had the whole thing down but i guess WotC thinks otherwise. i never expected an assassin class and it took a some work for me to accept the new class but i'm cool with it now.
Please. Toledo Steel holds up to Japanese Steel anyday.
Ok yeah Ill give you that, but still i wouldnt count that as a typical European sword.
Them Spainards really knew what they was doing too.
basically im just saying that they should bring masterwork weapons back, to account for superior steel and craftsmanship.
I like the assassin overall. It's best not to get caught up in the class name. That's for another thread though.
or maybe raise the prof. bonus to +4? I like that myself i think they should have an extra bonus to hit myself. but thats just me.
The issue with this thinking is "I think it would be cool if it was the ultimate sword. I think it should be better then any others" Is that there is no rational besides "its cool" to do it.
or maybe raise the prof. bonus to +4? I like that myself i think they should have an extra bonus to hit myself. but thats just me.
The issue with this thinking is "I think it would be cool if it was the ultimate sword. I think it should be better then any others" Is that there is no rational besides "its cool" to do it.
well yeah it is cool, but i could come up with a rational, like its better balanced, or sharper, or lighter, easier to weild, etc., etc., but then you could apply that same rational to any sword really, so ok i agree with you adding in an extra +1 to hit is kinda maybe too much, i think they should bring masterwork back, although i would consider any katana to be masterwork if made properly.
well yeah it is cool, but i could come up with a rational, like its better balanced, or sharper, or lighter, easier to weild, etc., etc., but then you could apply that same rational to any sword really, so ok i agree with you adding in an extra +1 to hit is kinda maybe too much, i think they should bring masterwork back, although i would consider any katana to be masterwork if made properly.
Personally I view +1 magic as masterwork. its that extra +1 with nothing else special.
The Spartans.
Because Armor trumps no armor. And Heavy Infantry slaughters light.
The Ninja apparently bought into all the Japanophile hysteria and tried to take a Spartan on. And got rightly pwnt.
Katana is a scimitar. It's not better than Western Weapons, and infact is -inferior- in most circumstances that matter. (especially when you start talking about things with "scales as hard as diamond" or what have you) it's no lighter and no stronger (actually it's quite abit weaker). The only thing it's "better" at is cutting up unarmored targets.
Japanese steel is also utter crap. (and still is inferior. It's why Japan imports steel for their cars and the like) The reason it was folded was to attempt to negate the craptastic nature of the steel (and it didn't work all that well, because a well made katana still isn't quite as durable as an average Sword)
Which means it was king of the land it was made for. A land with no Armor worth mentioning.
In the context of D&D if you -really- were going to be "realistic" about the Katana, it would be a +3, d6 versatile Breaks weapon. Because most of the stuff you hit in D&D has armor, or armor equivalent.
Breaks means on a roll of 1 the weapon breaks. :P
To give you an idea of just how ineffective Slashing weapons is on Armor that matters, a Katana/Ninja toe as well as the chained sickle can't even penetrate stamped out sheet bronze cuirasses. (Which means on the Episode of Deadliest Warrior, the Ninja would have been even more boned) That's to say nothing about how much better the Shield is as well. A Katana going up against Forged Bronze would be a hopless situation, and against Steel forged Plate? Yeah, not going to happen. Ever. Even Chain is enough to stop a katana dead cold.
The Spartans.
Nooo! Them poor ninjas!!!!
Nooo! Them poor ninjas!!!!
What's funny is you can find out the results in D&D too. Just stick a Fighter up against a Rogue and see what happens. hehe
Um just so you guys remember. WOTC has done this before and they will do it again. There were a bunch of "Knight" prestige classes and one official Knight class. Same for Samurai and Ninja. Its gonna happen and why complain about it anyway. If you're not interested ignore it! Nobody is making you guys buy the dang things.
And it goes without saying that I want quality. Just because I want a lot of options doesn't mean I want them all half-assed. I said it earlier but I guess I'll say it again. WOTC is a large company with resources and talent beyond the means of the average person and is in the business of selling us new products. Developing new classes is part of what they do regardless. New splat books like Martial Power will introduce new options (I love those) to older classes while new PHB (core) books will include new classes.
And there is a Monk class. Its insider only right now but its there.
I really don't see what you guys are arguing about. Its silly to not make new classes and options because some people might not want them or because some people have more fun reflavouring their classes. Plus its just bad business.
Um just so you guys remember. WOTC has done this before and they will do it again. There were a bunch of "Knight" prestige classes and one official Knight class. Same for Samurai and Ninja. Its gonna happen and why complain about it anyway. If you're not interested ignore it! Nobody is making you guys buy the dang things.
And it goes without saying that I want quality. Just because I want a lot of options doesn't mean I want them all half-assed. I said it earlier but I guess I'll say it again. WOTC is a large company with resources and talent beyond the means of the average person and is in the business of selling us new products. Developing new classes is part of what they do regardless. New splat books like Martial Power will introduce new options (I love those) to older classes while new PHB (core) books will include new classes.
And there is a Monk class. Its insider only right now but its there.
I really don't see what you guys are arguing about. Its silly to not make new classes and options because some people might not want them or because some people have more fun reflavouring their classes. Plus its just bad business.
But 4.0 is different the 3.5 There are no more "prestige" classes and with the pseudo-templates of Paragon path's and Epic destiny's further flavor can be given without a full fledged class.
there is no need of clone classes anymore because of the way its setup. Im not against unique classes, but in my opinion we dont need a "ninja" just because. We need a ninja that will fill a unique spot and not just be a rogue clone.
Really, the best way to handle Ninjas, Knights and Samurai - as well as any really close to what we already have classes - is to make them a build option for a class we already have. Since Ninja and Rogue are so similar, why not a Ninja build for the Rogue class that has a few different powers?
What we need to keep in mind is that adding new stuff isn't going to hurt anyone. You. Don't. Have. To. Use. It. It's honest to god that simple. Another thing to keep in mind is that what one person feels is covered well enough already simply means that it's covered well enough already to that person. Different people like different things. People obviously want a Ninja. Let 'em have it. It will not harm your gaming experience. Basically, your thinking it's not necessary does not mean it is not necessary.
Personally, I'd much prefer new stuff. I've seen Ninjas - even played one in 2e. I want stuff I haven't seen or tried yet. Ninjas would be fine, but not exactly top on my list.
Really, the best way to handle Ninjas, Knights and Samurai - as well as any really close to what we already have classes - is to make them a build option for a class we already have. Since Ninja and Rogue are so similar, why not a Ninja build for the Rogue class that has a few different powers?
What we need to keep in mind is that adding new stuff isn't going to hurt anyone. You. Don't. Have. To. Use. It. It's honest to god that simple. Another thing to keep in mind is that what one person feels is covered well enough already simply means that it's covered well enough already to that person. Different people like different things. People obviously want a Ninja. Let 'em have it. It will not harm your gaming experience. Basically, your thinking it's not necessary does not mean it is not necessary.
Personally, I'd much prefer new stuff. I've seen Ninjas - even played one in 2e. I want stuff I haven't seen or tried yet. Ninjas would be fine, but not exactly top on my list.
I am in complete agreement with ZB.
What we need to keep in mind is that adding new stuff isn't going to hurt anyone. You. Don't. Have. To. Use. It. It's honest to god that simple.QFT!
Personally, I'd much prefer new stuff. I've seen Ninjas - even played one in 2e. I want stuff I haven't seen or tried yet. Ninjas would be fine, but not exactly top on my list.I'd love to see new things also. Maybe a Strider type of class or a Gun Slinger. But I would still love a Ninja class. I was talking it over with a good buddie of mine who is really open minded and he agreed with me. He basically said what you said.
If I were to give some suggestions to WOTC for a Ninja class I would include powers like being able to shift into invisibity, phase through walls, perform double jumps, have a few illusion powers like being able to make multiple images of yourself or ghost sounds to confuse enemies on your location. Maybe the ability to use martial art like unarmed attacks or phase as an immediate reaction to become insubstantial to avoid physical attacks.
I doubt that the Rogue or Assasin class, while fun and playable, could cover everything a ninja could possibly do.
Those interested should read the Design and Development article this month - ninjas don't cut it.
I think the real question is: what niche would a ninja fill that isn't already filled by other classes?
The one thing the rogue can't do that I associate with ninjas is that I imagine ninjas as true weapon masters, able to grab anything in a pinch and turn it into a deadly weapon.
Most of the semi-mystical abilities associated with ninjas are things like scaling any surface, leaping great distances, or disappearing in the blink of an eye, which are all things that rogues do just fine. They're actually staples of non-magical stealthy characters in fantasy stories, like Batman.
I just don't see what a ninja would bring to the game that's valuable and unique enough to warrant its own class.
that's actually the question i was asking. i was quite happy when i first saw the rogue paragon path Shadow Assassin because i thought to myself, phew guess i'm not gonna have to worry about another rogue spin-off class
I prefer quality over quantity, you prefer quantity over quality, I just don't see why you're getting on my case for that.
that's why in 3.5 they should have replaced a bunch of the core classes with stuff from tome of battle and tome of blood lol
Well to be fair, Ninjas in both the classical and historical senses don't cut it- but that doesn't mean some off the wall corner concept may slip by. "The earth dampens my footfalls, the air carries a mist to shroud my movements. I strike like lighning, and flow away like water. None will know I was there."
Those interested should read the Design and Development article this month - ninjas don't cut it.
I disagree. Notably because the assassin class delivers 90% of what I would have wanted out of a fantasy ninja class (though I would have preferred a greater emphasis on sneaking and misdirection, less on killing). Conversely to me the concept of assassin doesn't define a class, nor have I ever associated the term assassin with mystical control over shadows.
That said I don't find the topic worthy of much argument. I got the class I wanted, and rose by any other name still smells as sweet.
Those interested should read the Design and Development article this month - ninjas don't cut it.
i just read it. didn't see where they specifically said that but bsaed on what the article said i don't see how they could go about releasing a ninja now since it doesn't have any justification.
Those interested should read the Design and Development article this month - ninjas don't cut it.
They don't cut it NOW, but in 3-4 years when they're scraping for things to create, their standards will likely lower and ninjas, et al. will start coming out.
They don't cut it NOW, but in 3-4 years when they're scraping for things to create, their standards will likely lower and ninjas, et al. will start coming out.
That's all I'm really trying to say, pretty much.
I am well aware that if WotC makes a ninja class, I don't have to use it. And if all other bases have been covered, all the mechanics that should be made have been made, and the only thing left for them to do is sell people something they have been sold before but with just a different name, then I say go for it, I really wouldn't care at that point, have your Rogue clone and be happy.
See I'm all for having new options, even ones I'm not going to use. But I would rather WotC was working on adding new options to the game than adding the same option you already had and calling it something else.
Book flavor vs. player flavor is all about where to the draw the line; should the books do all the flavoring for us, no thank you, should we have to do all the flavoring ourselves, no sir.
IMO the books need to supply enough flavor so that we have conventional concepts, that way we don't have to describe and explain every little thing to every person. But at the same time, the books need to be somewhat vague and give us room to put our own spin on it, mix it up, make it our own. As player we should always be allowed to take the concepts of the book in new directions without causing any damage to the what people already know.
Do I think that book flavor is moot, not really; without it we wouldn't know what an urban-druid is or what a fallen paladin is, or even what a paladin is for that matter. And when a player tells me his character is a Paladin, I don't have to ask him "what's a paladin?" but thanks to the books only making the classes a blank template with only overarching concepts, I still might ask him "What kinda Paladin?" and he might respond "A samurai"; I am givin enough book fluff that he does not need to tell me what a Paladin is, yet there is not so much book fluff that Paladins and samurai are not believed to be that different of concepts.
It's a balancing act, and IMO WotC has been doing a pretty good job so far of balancing that so far. One must must think about how a Ninja class would affect that balance.
Can fluff be ignored? sure, but so can the rules; why do we need rules to have fun? the answer is so that everyone is equal and the reason why we need fluff is so that everyone is on the same page.
I wish, Wizards wouldn't try to pull the "WELL I FIGHT WITH A SHOE! THEREFORE I R NOT FIGHTER" complex. Really, 30-36 classes is too many. It cookie cutters classes into very narrow bands as the game progresses in releases. (3e was even worse with it's 178 classes most of which were probably the same classes over and over again) Hell you can already sort of see it in the PHB (as in the first one). The Ranger, really should never have existed. It's a subset of the Fighter and the Rogue really. I know "But it's been there since 1978!" And what did people say about THAC0? Tradition! isn't a reason to keep a class's presence. It's contributions to the game are. Even though I think the Controller as a role is utter garbage (too swingy to do right) I can justify the Controller, long before I could say the Avenger, or the Ranger.
The Avenger should have been the Paladin's other build (you know the Avenging Paladin) especially after seat time with the class. The thing tanks for crying out loud and it has class features that make it Priority on the battlefield the thing is all but a Defender in name. The Ranger should have been gobbled up by Fighter and Rogue, later the Warlord with Beast Master. (with some tweaks to treat companions the PROPER way that the DMGII handles them).
Star Wars Saga is doing -very- well for itself and they have not introduced one new class since the game's release. They have however released new talents etc which give you a very wide variety within existing classes. Why is this a superior model you may be asking? Because you aren't having to redesign a new class totally from scratch everytime you want to introduce new powers and abilities to the game, and it creates less comparison work to worry about such as. "Well we better check the Sorcerer, against the Rogue and the Ranger's DPR (If they had they would have realized the Sorc is > them but let's not go there) and balance it accordingly"
And then years and years later. There's 10 more strikers to check your new class against. It also keeps people from having utterly pidgeon holed classes to choose from.
For example, for the life of me I can't see how on earth they are going to do anything with Elemental that isn't going to seem like a build type for Arcane, or Primal. Elemental, should be a build type not a Powersource. "Each element is it's own class!" is probably how they are going to approach it because frankly the Idea Train is going to be just about stalled out when it comes out.
Ki was just going to be "Azn Martial" and they owned up to it, and destroyed it already.
The Ranger should have been gobbled up by Fighter and Rogue, later the Warlord with Beast Master. (with some tweaks to treat companions the PROPER way that the DMGII handles them).
Rangers should have had animal companions and been the martial controller since the beginning. A DEX/WIS animal handler and archer really seems like a cinch concept for a controller.
No martial controller. It's just too gimicky. The ranger does too much DPR to be a controller (which is a non existent role anyway since Leaders are just as often just as effective at control which should have told them something about that "role")
How they handled the Ranger though is just stupid though. It's like they all sat around at table and started screaming DDDDDD PPPPPPP RRRRRRR.
For example, for the life of me I can't see how on earth they are going to do anything with Elemental that isn't going to seem like a build type for Arcane, or Primal. Elemental, should be a build type not a Powersource. "Each element is it's own class!" is probably how they are going to approach it because frankly the Idea Train is going to be just about stalled out when it comes out.
I agree with ya here. We already have "Elemental" it's called fire and ice. There sorcerer is a perfect elementalist and so is the wizard. Why waste more space in a book with a new class when you can continue to expand on the old? I have heard a lot of complaints about 3rd edition with regards to having too many prestige classes. Well whats the difference in drowning us in hoards of classes? Let's look at the assassin for example. Why exactly is the assassin even needed, why didn't they just use the rogue or even the ranger and make build options to make an assassin? We already have a Shadow power source class, it's the freaking Dark Pact Warlock!!! In my opinion they should only have two power sources Arcane and Divine. Another thing I just thought about, why do we even need a power source anyway? There is nothing that I have seen that, mechanics wise, a power source truly affects. I haven't seen anything that says for example; Resist 10 shadow or primal or what have you. There is no mechanical significance in a power source except for maybe a ritual.
If 3e only drowned us in PRCs you'd have an argument. But there were 178 CLASSES in it. *vomits uncontrolably*
The Shadow Power source I get, it's Necromancy and Illusion. It's got enough of a wide band that I can justify it's existence pretty readily.
The Assassin class I even get. (Though I can't stand that name. Should have called it the Shadowdancer and be done with it)
It's when you start to get to things like Elemental, and the now Gratefully Departed Ki that I have to say "wtf". And classes which feel redundant, like the Ranger and the Avenger.
Hell you can already sort of see it in the PHB (as in the first one). The Ranger, really should never have existed. It's a subset of the Fighter and the Rogue really.
Open up your 3ed players handbook and look at the fighter and rogue. I just can't seem to find where either one of those gets animal empathy, or a favored enemy, or an animal companion, or hide in plain sight, or swift tracking, or woodland stride, or camouflage. Seems to me that it IS a separate class not covered by either of the other two. Of course, you're probably only going by "fights with two weapons" and not by what the class actually is.
In 4ed, you are correct, but only because WoTC screwed the pooch by removing virtually all traces of non-combat abilites from the clases. In doing so, they severely limited many of the classes that people enjoy. Things like swift tracking, woodland stride and animal empathy should have been given to basic rangers in 4ed.
Another thing I just thought about, why do we even need a power source anyway?
Hold on, no need to go to extremes; it's not about what we "need", we really don't "need" anything the books have to offer. If there were only four classes; Defender, Striker, Leader and Controller, then a player would have to explain and describe everything about his character and every power he has to every other player and DM, they would always be needing approval on whether it fits into the setting. When flavor is completely in the hands of every player, it's anarchy; so I'm glad that they have concepts like Shadow and Arcane, Assassin and Rogue and such, it inspires people, gives them ground to jump off from, and provides a common yet open understanding of how thing work and relate to eachother.
It's when you start to get to things like Elemental
Nobody knows what elemental is, don't judge a book by it's cover; they've told us that Elemental is not like Ki, it's a concept that makes sense.
In 4ed, you are correct, but only because WoTC screwed the pooch byremoving virtually all traces of non-combat abilites from the clases. In doing so, they severely limited many of the classes that people enjoy.
I'm glad they got rid of that stuff; see now we're on the other side of the scale where the books put too much detail in their books, I want more elbow room with my classes so I don't have to be going against whats "normal" every time I take a class in my own direction, I like that not all rangers are stealthy or are into animals.
I dont care what anybody says i still want me some ninjas. I dont think they should be in a PHB though. Ninjas are too tied in with japan to warrant a general class. I dont see ninjas fitting in a european fantasty campaign, of course the monk doesnt really fit either. Still im hopin for a 4e Oreintal Adventures, with some ninjas. I could see ninjas being their own class without just being a reflavored rougue or assassin. I could see ninjas being a good mix of rougue, fighter, assassin, monk, and some wizard powers thrown in too, like some invisibility, and the like.
For example, for the life of me I can't see how on earth they are going to do anything with Elemental that isn't going to seem like a build type for Arcane, or Primal. Elemental, should be a build type not a Powersource. "Each element is it's own class!" is probably how they are going to approach it because frankly the Idea Train is going to be just about stalled out when it comes out.
Someone needs to brush up on their 4E (default) cosmology. I think it's a dead give away that the Elemental power source draws from the Elemental Chaos (with Divine being the counter-point drawing from the Astral Sea). We could have classes drawing power from Primordials (with or without their consent, given their portrayed stance as "epic bad guys against the gods"), the Abyss, demons/devils (the nine hells are in the astral sea, so the other group is in the EC, or the Abyss; I can't remember specifics and am no entirely awake yet, but that's the gist of it), or straight from the Elemental Chaos. Personally, I want to see a class that specializes in being a walking 4E elemental. Not so clear cut as "fireball" and "blizzard", I want to see electric balls of ice and storms full of rocks and fire. Mix and match, so that very few attacks are obviously of one pure elemental type.
I'm glad they got rid of that stuff; see now we're on the other side of the scale where the books put too much detail in their books, I want more elbow room with my classes so I don't have to be going against whats "normal" every time I take a class in my own direction, I like that not all rangers are stealthy or are into animals.
This is a bizzare way of looking at it. It's basically "I don't want to have to go against what's "normal", so I want far less options opent me so that I can go in my own far more limited directions."
I'd rather have the options that the 3ed ranger offered me. Options which I could choose to ignore if I wanted. AND have all the options you have. It seems silly to me that you would choose to give yourself far more limited options than I have.
I want more elbow room with my classes so I don't have to be going against whats "normal" every time I take a class in my own direction, I like that not all rangers are stealthy or are into animals.If you want elbow room then lots of classes will just give you the complete opposite.
This is a bizzare way of looking at it. It's basically "I don't want to have to go against what's "normal", so I want far less options opent me so that I can go in my own far more limited directions."
I'd rather have the options that the 3ed ranger offered me. Options which I could choose to ignore if I wanted. AND have all the options you have. It seems silly to me that you would choose to give yourself far more limited options than I have.
But those things, IMO, are not options; they just gave all Rangers those specific things, basically telling the reader that 'this is what a ranger is' and that anything else would be radical. As a long time player who plays with open minded people, this is sorta a superficial problem; but if I was a new player coming to the game, I would see this as more of a creative obstacle.
Creativity should be something thats encouraged by giving the player a more open canvas, not something radical by detailing out everything to point where creativity equals change
I'm not saying that classes couldn't have more non combat options, only that in doing that you need to be careful about scaring off new players who want to be creative.
If you want elbow room then lots of classes will just give you the complete opposite.
Exactly, which is why I don't want a Samurai or Ninja class or Katana stats.
If 3e only drowned us in PRCs you'd have an argument. But there were 178 CLASSES in it.
Wait! Really? I have a pretty extensive library of 3e books (all hardbacks except Forgotten Realms material) and I only count 50 base classes. Now, maybe I could have missed a couple or even a dozen, but 128 I find hard to believe.
I still say ninjas are cool.
And i still stand behind posts #37 & 141
No martial controller. It's just too gimicky. The ranger does too much DPR to be a controller (which is a non existent role anyway since Leaders are just as often just as effective at control which should have told them something about that "role")How they handled the Ranger though is just stupid though. It's like they all sat around at table and started screaming DDDDDD PPPPPPP RRRRRRR.
Obviously I am suggesting that the ranger should have been designed differently.
I don't understand the general opposition to a martial controller. What makes a martial controller gimmicky? An animal handler class with burst attacks centered on his companion doesn't seem any different from the shaman or artificer summons.
I could see ninjas being their own class without just being a reflavored rougue or assassin. I could see ninjas being a good mix of rougue, fighter, assassin, monk, and some wizard powers thrown in too, like some invisibility, and the like.
What does this mean, "mix?" Which fighter attributes should the ninja have? Which wizard? Which rogue and monk? How will this be any different from the assassin, who fights with a weapon, sneaks, and casts spells?
Open up your 3ed players handbook and look at the fighter and rogue. I just can't seem to find where either one of those gets animal empathy, or a favored enemy, or an animal companion, or hide in plain sight, or swift tracking, or woodland stride, or camouflage. Seems to me that it IS a separate class not covered by either of the other two. Of course, you're probably only going by "fights with two weapons" and not by what the class actually is.
I think he's probably looking at the fact that it's basically a fighter class with stealth, traps, and a bunch of extra skill points. The rest of that stuff is just window dressing for the core of the class, which was a character with some of the benefits of the rogue and some of the benefits of the fighter. It's not like any of those things above were exceptionally useful except hide in plain sight plus camouflage (which you didn't get until level 17 and could only be used outdoors, anyway). I mean, really, "woodland stride?" A handful of minor, highly situational benefits do not a class make.
But those things, IMO, are not options; they just gave all Rangers those specific things, basically telling the reader that 'this is what a ranger is' and that anything else would be radical.
RAW doesn't back you up. The PHB2 showed those of you who didn't understand that all those abilities were merely options how to go about changing them. Your choice not to make use of those options doesn't change the absolute fact that they were options. What's more, your choice not to use those options doesn't mean that those options shouldn't be there for others.
Creativity should be something thats encouraged by giving the player a more open canvas, not something radical by detailing out everything to point where creativity equals change
Not everyone is as creative as you are. Those people deserve to have fleshed out options available to them. They shouldn't be forced to play bare bones characters, just because you're one of the creative ones.
I'm not saying that classes couldn't have more non combat options, only that in doing that you need to be careful about scaring off new players who want to be creative.
Again, I disagree. In my experience, people who are new to a game rarely go beyond what is written. As they grow more used to the game and get ideas, they then start to let their creativity come out and stretch beyond what is written down.
I think he's probably looking at the fact that it's basically a fighter class with stealth, traps, and a bunch of extra skill points. The rest of that stuff is just window dressing for the core of the class, which was a character with some of the benefits of the rogue and some of the benefits of the fighter. It's not like any of those things above were exceptionally useful except hide in plain sight plus camouflage (which you didn't get until level 17 and could only be used outdoors, anyway). I mean, really, "woodland stride?" A handful of minor, highly situational benefits do not a class make.
If all you care about is combat, then you are correct. For those of use who care about more than combat, those things a class DID make.
It would not exactly hurt my feelings if the ninja never made it into 4e. If the Ki power source is ever developed, it'd be an obvious candidate, though. Also wouldn't be surprised to see it as an Assassin PP.
RAW doesn't back you up. The PHB2 showed those of you who didn't understand that all those abilities were merely options how to go about changing them. Your choice not to make use of those options doesn't change the absolute fact that they were options. What's more, your choice not to use those options doesn't mean that those options shouldn't be there for others
Correct, once the PH2 and Unearthed Arcana came out, some things became optional, which was a step in the right direction, but that does not mean that the problem never existed.
Not everyone is as creative as you are. Those people deserve to have fleshed out options available to them. They shouldn't be forced to play bare bones characters, just because you're one of the creative ones.
Right, it's about balance; we don't want to make them do all the creative work, but at the same time we want to provoke creativity.
Again, I disagree. In my experience, people who are new to a game rarely go beyond what is written. As they grow more used to the game and get ideas, they then start to let their creativity come out and stretch beyond what is written down.
I think we really are on the same page; we both believe that new players need a "fleshed out" jumping off point, but also need room to "stretch" creatively.
If all you care about is combat, then you are correct. For those of use who care about more than combat, those things a class DID make.
It's not about combat. All of those things were minor situational benefits in or out of combat. All they did was mechanically reinforce the outdoorsy theme without actually having much impact on most games, unless the campaign was built to give rangers something valuable to do. Face it: the ranger was a poorly considered class in 3e. They just didn't know what to do with him.
Correct, once the PH2 and Unearthed Arcana came out, some things became optional, which was a step in the right direction, but that does not mean that the problem never existed.
They were always optional.
Right, it's about balance; we don't want to make them do all the creative work, but at the same time we want to provoke creativity.
They really haven't done much of the creative work at all when it comes to classes, though. Virtually everything is based around combat, and there's so much more to most classes than combat. That's my beef with this.
I think we really are on the same page; we both believe that new players need a "fleshed out" jumping off point, but also need room to "stretch" creatively.
We probably are. If there's one thing I've learned on these forums, it's that you can have 5 people looking at the same thing in virtually the same way, and get 5 different posts that sound nothing alike explaining that position. :P
It's not about combat. All of those things were minor situational benefits in or out of combat. All they did was mechanically reinforce the outdoorsy theme without actually having much impact on most games, unless the campaign was built to give rangers something valuable to do. Face it: the ranger was a poorly considered class in 3e. They just didn't know what to do with him.
Maybe in your groups, but in the ones I played in, I saw far more rangers than I did fighters or paladins, and in about the same numbers as rogues. If the class was as you say, the numbers I saw would have been far, far lower.
Maybe in your groups, but in the ones I played in, I saw far more rangers than I did fighters or paladins, and in about the same numbers as rogues. If the class was as you say, the numbers I saw would have been far, far lower.
Not at all. I did not say the ranger was an unpopular class. I played one myself. The ranger was popular, though, precisely because he combined the martial prowess of a fighter with the skill flexibility of a rogue. I highly doubt anybody looked at the ranger write up and said, "Moves through non-magical brambles at full speed? Count me in!"
Really, the 4th edition Ranger class reminds me of many of the cool things that popular drow character always does.
*sits back and waits for people to scream at him*
wotc at some point said that hte assassin would not be the only shadow striker
wotc at some point said that the assassin would not be the only shadow striker
Enough freaking Strikers all ready. Give us more of the other roles, WotC.
Really, the 4th edition Ranger class reminds me of many of the cool things that popular drow character always does.
*sits back and waits for people to scream at him*
Not unexpected. Also does a lot of things that famous elf from the movies does too...
Although there is a deep temptation to multiclass/hybrid with the Fighter using Animal Companion and play the Strongest Man in the Universe...
Really, the 4th edition Ranger class reminds me of many of the cool things that popular drow character always does.
*sits back and waits for people to scream at him*
Not unexpected. Also does a lot of things that famous elf from the movies does too...
Although there is a deep temptation to multiclass/hybrid with the Fighter using Animal Companion and play the Strongest Man in the Universe...
. . . I HAVE THE POWER!
. . . I HAVE THE POWER!
Going further off topic, why does He-Man get the cool animal companion? I mean, don't get me wrong. Little Miss Palidian want to be with the Alicorn is awesome, but in the Master of the Universe... Universe... it seems to be a little lacking.
I mean, the boys get giant cats that can fight each other, okay... the girls get what? Flying Horses. I mean, even She-Ra's villians BECOME Cats. It's just not fair! She-ra deserved a Kick Ass Battle Companion.
...
And the thought of putting together a pre-generated She-Ra party for people to play at a convention sends me all atwitter. :D I gotta do it for the Febuary convention...
@kensan: Simple, because she's a wanna-be paladin, and he's an epic Barbarian MC: Ranger :D
back on topic:
Didnt He-Man fight a ninja?
dont remember.
but she-ra needed a better outfit
back on topic:
Didnt fricking everyone fight a ninja?
I think that's what you meant. 
I mean, even the Ninja Turtles fought ninjas.
back on topic:
Didnt He-Man fight a ninja?
Ninjor!
I find it curious that he has webbed feet.
back on topic:
Didnt He-Man fight a ninja?
Ninjor!
I find it curious that he has webbed feet.
Yes thats him! I just knew there was a ninja in there!
I'm kinda curious about the webbed feet too? Maybe some kinda birth defect?
back on topic:
Didnt fricking everyone fight a ninja?
I think that's what you meant.
I mean, even the Ninja Turtles fought ninjas.
Yes good point! Remember back when Ninja Turtles were actually kool and they all wore the same colored headband?
back on topic:
Didnt fricking everyone fight a ninja?
I think that's what you meant.
I mean, even the Ninja Turtles fought ninjas.
Yes good point! Remember back when Ninja Turtles were actually kool and they all wore the same colored headband?
Nope, but I do remember when Raphael was the coolest turtle ever.
Ive yet to see the New Battlestar Galactica, so im unsure of its Ninjaness, but i seem to recall an old episode where they finally made it to earth and had to fight evil robot Ninja clones from the future sent by the devil!Ive also heard that in the new Battlestar Starbuck got a sex change. Is that true?
Yes it is true, and she's hot (note: robot chicks are also hot). The new BSG blows the old one out of the water (sky? space?). Its over now, but you can watch the episodes from the website. GO SEE IT NOW!
Well if you say its cool, ill check it out!
Im still not sure about Starbuck being female now, even if she is hot. That really warps my childhood memories. Ill start havin dreams about makin out with Starbuck, but then it will be the dude! I dont know it just kinda weirds me out.
You got a link to that Battlestar Galactica? I cant seem to find it.
me think its off the syfy channel....formerly known as scifi
Ahhh the syfy website? i was looking at battlestargalactica.com
Is there an official Syfy website? Link?
heres the link to Syfy site. Didnt see any full episodes of Battlestar though, they had the webisodes.
And to get this pack on topic:
Ninjas Rule!!!
I'm here to chew bubblegum and SMITE ninjas.
AND I'm all out of bubblegum
A katana is merely a reflavored longsword or bastard sword, whichever you prefer.
Yes that would work, but i think they should be a little different. 3e put them as a masterwork bastard sword, and i liked that idea but i never really saw the katana as a bastard sword. I mean they're about the same length but the Bastard sword has a broader blade and made more for hacking, whereas the katana was a cutting weapon. Might be slightly off topic but you cant have ninjas with out katanas!
1. The katana is a longsword. The curvature of the blade is merely fluff.
2. Ninjas didn't use katanas. Samurais did.
Actually, Ninja are Samurai caste but yeah, it's said they didn't really use katana but I mean if they had one they would probalby use it unless it was distinguishing. Nothing stopping a ninja from using one.
Also someone said ninja are assassins? No, they aren't. At least if they are they sucked at it. There is no documentation anywhere of ninja ever assassinating anyone. It's actually said they were good at sabotauge and spying and demolitions.
There is no documentation anywhere of ninja ever assassinating anyone.
Dude, I'd say they were terrible ninjas if there was documentation.
There is no documentation anywhere of ninja ever assassinating anyone.Dude, I'd say they were terrible ninjas if there was documentation.
So of course they were SOOO good no one ever knew it was them? Come on man. That's silly.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtPRv3VactM&feat...
So in the end Ninja and Pirates are killed by robots. Hmm sounds about right.
No way! Robots nor pirates can kill a ninja!
Everyone knows "only a ninja can defeat a ninja!"
firestyle fireball juitsu .......
firestyle fireball juitsu .......
Need a soap justsu move for the fat stinky con goers. :-p
So of course they were SOOO good no one ever knew it was them? Come on man. That's silly.
I'm not so sure how far down the irony rabbit hole we're travelling today so I'm just going to respond with: Posts that include the word dude should never be taken seriously.
So of course they were SOOO good no one ever knew it was them? Come on man. That's silly.I'm not so sure how far down the irony rabbit hole we're travelling today so I'm just going to respond with: Posts that include the word dude should never be taken seriously.
Nor should people named after a Simpsons character known for being a qwak of a Dr. Point taken.
=D
=D
"Hi Everybody!"
Ninja Vanish!
you failed grasshopper, for I have been here waiting in the shadows for quite some time. youyour juitsu is no good
you failed grasshopper, for I have been here waiting in the shadows for quite some time. youyour juitsu is no good
you failed grasshopper, for I have been here waiting in the shadows for quite some time. youyour juitsu is no good
No way dude! I rolled a NAT 20!
true.... but did you see that flashbang device drop out of your back pocket??? and go off???
D'OH!!! No i did not
This is officially my favorite thread on these boards now.
why ??
becuase of the live type roleplaying??
if so why didnt you just join in
I think its because Ninjas are full of AWESOMENESS!
and Samrin gets points for the best Ninja writing!
I think its because Ninjas are full of AWESOMENESS!
and Samrin gets points for the best Ninja writing!
I totally agree!!!!
HEEEE YAAAA!!!!! SNEAK ATTACK!!!!!
MULTI SHADOCLONE JUITSU!!!!!
MASIVE FIREBALL JUISTU
Samrin was that 2nd one really neccissary??
Samrin was that 2nd one really neccissary??
It had to be said, the balance of the universe depended on it.
In honor of this thread, we should request a ninja smiley.
There are Ninja smilies. You just cant see them!
and shaolin monk smileys we need them too.
samurai, not so much
That would be cool! and i think Samurai smilies would be cool too!
it just be a smileyface with samurai helm....
That would be ok in my book.
just for you dude
thought you'd like it
Ninja Smite!
Seen you comin a mile away!
Better luck next time.
And what have we told you about smiting people? Youre gonna put your eye out!
and Hoar wont be pleased
