Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MacEochaid Apr 16, 2011 20:09:33	i know some people are feeling like there are some archetypes and character concepts that don't yet have a build or Essentials subtype for them yet. Since DnD is (imho wisely) slowing down on introducing new classes, but has also stopped the ____________ Power series, what classes could be enriched with new builds? Two/Three I wish we could see: Dex Bard, We have mage like bards, and we have fighter like bards, we need a thief like bard Charltan Spy, Cha/Dex, with tons of Illusion powers and light blade attack powers, good at Stealth and Thievery, easily built out as a Kukri wielding Gentleman Assasin, or an Errol Flynn style Rapier and buckler fighter Ranged Weapon Avenger, one new Oath of Enmity Class Feature, but powers and feats for two paths: Zealous Stalker Wis/Dex, Sneaky and good with rba's, think Sehanine's secret army of shrouded figures in the forest pulling back on longbows Zealous Inquisitor Wis/Int, Very good at Knowledge skills to hunt down it's foes. A Van Richten style character, dedicated to Pelor or the Raven Queen staring vampires down with a sanctified crossbow.
#2 Damon_Tor Apr 16, 2011 21:51:11	For existing classes? Frankly, I think an opporunity was missed in making the Arena Fighter Str/Dex when Str/Cha would have been more appropriate for a flashy defender built to draw the attention of the battlefield.  Similarly, I think the "cunning sneak" is mechanically different than the "hidden sniper" type rogue, and especially since the (non-elf)sniper rogue is now effectively non-functional, there's plenty of room for the concept. I'd like to see a proper summoner character, not just a summons-as-dailies-only type, but I think that's something that's best covered by a new class, not a build of a class.  This is one of the reasons I dispise the HoS necromancer: it's just another wizard, no novel mechanics.  Necromancers should command a small squadron of disposable undead, not 1-2 per day at the expense of their actual control powers. A trap-laying ranger or rogue would be good.  As much as I dislike choicelessness in builds, it's a bit perplexing to me why there's not an essentials sorcerer class with similar mechanics to the slayer or knight.
#3 Janx_14 Apr 17, 2011 0:35:12	They've gotten closer to a true summoner with the Sentinel, the Hexblade at higher levels, and the Cavalier's "optional" mount. Atleast now they're giving us pets that stick around, and not just the shaman conjuration. I think E-style is actually probably the best way to properly handle a summoner class. I too find it very surprising that instead of going further with the necro, they instead stuck to the formula. I think a cloth wearing varient feature of some sort for either/both the Cleric and Invoker. Sure, you can reflavour, but when you think of a priest-type guy, do you really think of someone in chainmail? That said, I'm cool with them having chainmail, just the cloth priest is something that is bizzarely not covered in D&D really. I'd like to see a ranged runepriest actually, the runepriest fluff for the most part was kinda crappy, but it did make mentions of woodland guardians and such making runes as well (maybe to entice people to make Wilden Runepriests). I wouldnt go quite as far to give them the primal keyword, but expanding idea of runic magic from the runepriest has potential I think. I could be the "warlock" of divine classes, having alittle bit of everything. An ardent that is sort of like the passivist cleric, and implement based.
#4 ah_stormbringer Apr 17, 2011 5:40:15	A cloth wearing cleric type would be awesome and a true dex based defender(swashbuckling type) would be a good addition. A true summoner class. One that can summon different animals for different occations. A real necromancer is a must. A ranged avenger build would be cool to. Also I would love these to be all none essentials style classes/builds. That way all 4th edition players could use them.
#5 Samrin Apr 17, 2011 7:19:32	Also I would love these to be all none essentials style classes/builds. That way all 4th edition players could use them. Except the ones that are playing Essentials only.
#6 Relo Apr 17, 2011 7:52:39	Also I would love these to be all none essentials style classes/builds. That way all 4th edition players could use them. Except the ones that are playing Essentials only. I think he never heard of someone like that. I only have heard of one here, but far more people go 4e non essentials only, so non essentials seem to be more common and usefull for most people.
#7 ah_stormbringer Apr 17, 2011 9:35:18	Also essentials was supposed to be 10 products then you were to move on to regular 4th edition. Why should all the 4th edition players who have supported it since launch 2.5 years ago be forced to use essentials builds and products and get little or no support for the classes and builds that have been around for awhile. WOTC needs to get there heads out of the sand and get their act together, cause right now they are looking really bad right now and without a clear direction for the game.
#8 Janx_14 Apr 17, 2011 9:54:39	I may be on your side Stormbringer, but this isnt the intent of this thread. Lets keep the pre-E vs post-E discussions out of here. Also I want a dual-wielding Swordmage. I always view them as the jedi class, and was disapointed when AP1 just added the weird Ensnaring Swordmage that seemed kind of like it was trying to be an arcane melee ranger, but minus the dual-wield.
#9 excalainen Apr 17, 2011 10:00:56	For existing classes? As much as I dislike choicelessness in builds, it's a bit perplexing to me why there's not an essentials sorcerer class with similar mechanics to the slayer or knight. "Hurr, durr, sorcerer is a spell-caster, it can't be simple to play. It wasn't so in ye olde editions, herp derp." Not that I like Essentials design myself, so it's not a big loss.
#10 lokiare Apr 17, 2011 10:34:17	For existing classes? As much as I dislike choicelessness in builds, it's a bit perplexing to me why there's not an essentials sorcerer class with similar mechanics to the slayer or knight. "Hurr, durr, sorcerer is a spell-caster, it can't be simple to play. It wasn't so in ye olde editions, herp derp." Not that I like Essentials design myself, so it's not a big loss. I agree... You couldn't possibly give it a fireball spell as an MBA and then give it enhancers at various levels... level - Class Feature 1 - Fireball (ranged burst 3 or close blast 3, at-will, MBA/RBA, Cha vs. Reflex 3/5/7d6 damage) 2 - Choose a keyword your fireballs now have that keyword (element) 3 - Deal + Con mod damage with fireball 4 - increase range of fireball by Con mod 5 - +1 attack with fireball 6 - Can choose for center target of fireball to not be affected 7 - + 1 damage with fireball 8 - +1 AC after hitting 2 or more targets with fireball until start of next round 9 - Choose a second keyword you can choose to add this keyword to your fireball each time you use it 10 - +1 to reflex, will, and fortitude 11-20 paragon path features 21-30 epic destiny features
#11 Samrin Apr 17, 2011 11:04:32	Also I would love these to be all none essentials style classes/builds. That way all 4th edition players could use them. Except the ones that are playing Essentials only. far more people go 4e non essentials only, so non essentials seem to be more common and usefull for most people. Tired of statements like this. You have no idea what people are playing. Especially "most people". Personally, I wouldn't want to be limited to just essentials, or non essentials. There are things I like throughout all of the products. The only thing left that I would want to see, essentials or not, is spellthief type of class. Not quite sure how it would work, but it would be interesting.
#12 Darkwolf_Bloodsbane Apr 17, 2011 12:22:56	For existing classes? As much as I dislike choicelessness in builds, it's a bit perplexing to me why there's not an essentials sorcerer class with similar mechanics to the slayer or knight. "Hurr, durr, sorcerer is a spell-caster, it can't be simple to play. It wasn't so in ye olde editions, herp derp." Not that I like Essentials design myself, so it's not a big loss. I agree... You couldn't possibly give it a fireball spell as an MBA and then give it enhancers at various levels... level - Class Feature 1 - Fireball (ranged burst 3 or close blast 3, at-will, MBA/RBA, Cha vs. Reflex 3/5/7d6 damage) 2 - Choose a keyword your fireballs now have that keyword (element) 3 - Deal + Con mod damage with fireball 4 - increase range of fireball by Con mod 5 - +1 attack with fireball 6 - Can choose for center target of fireball to not be affected 7 - + 1 damage with fireball 8 - +1 AC after hitting 2 or more targets with fireball until start of next round 9 - Choose a second keyword you can choose to add this keyword to your fireball each time you use it 10 - +1 to reflex, will, and fortitude 11-20 paragon path features 21-30 epic destiny features Not bad. Give the player a choice of damage-type and I'd actually like that.
#13 Sea-Envy Apr 17, 2011 14:04:32	For the Shaman I would like to see a spirit that is a huminoid anscestor guid and a spirit that has hoves and horns either a ram or a stag.
#14 Crimson_Concerto Apr 17, 2011 14:33:48	*looks at the Psion* I want a Seer. Divination, Precognition, whatever you want to call it, it's missing in 4E. Yeah, there are a few paragon paths and a couple of powers for different classes here and there that have a hint of that theme, but there's no way right now to play a character whose primary or even sole talent is precognition. For the Shaman I would like to see a spirit that is a huminoid anscestor guid and a spirit that has hoves and horns either a ram or a stag. This is called reflavoring. Your Spirit Comanion can already pretty much be anything you want. I've played a Shaman with a Scorpion spirit. One of my friends played one with a Jellyfish, of all thing. There's even official artwork of a Shaman with a Shark spirit!
#15 Cyvaris Apr 17, 2011 16:01:28	Duel-wielding striker swordmage would be cool. I would also love to see a Dex/Int rogue. As long as it got a class feature that let it sub Int for Cha/Wis for determening will defense I think the build could work well. Make it focus on rogue "knowledge", poisons, precise organ stabs, etc. Also give make powers that could reflect the "Xanatos Gambit". I think the smart and devious rogue is a nice little niche that needs filling.
#16 lokiare Apr 17, 2011 17:47:47	For existing classes? As much as I dislike choicelessness in builds, it's a bit perplexing to me why there's not an essentials sorcerer class with similar mechanics to the slayer or knight. "Hurr, durr, sorcerer is a spell-caster, it can't be simple to play. It wasn't so in ye olde editions, herp derp." Not that I like Essentials design myself, so it's not a big loss. I agree... You couldn't possibly give it a fireball spell as an MBA and then give it enhancers at various levels... level - Class Feature 1 - Fireball (ranged burst 3 or close blast 3, at-will, MBA/RBA, Cha vs. Reflex 3/5/7d6 damage) 2 - Choose a keyword your fireballs now have that keyword (element) 3 - Deal + Con mod damage with fireball 4 - increase range of fireball by Con mod 5 - +1 attack with fireball 6 - Can choose for center target of fireball to not be affected 7 - + 1 damage with fireball 8 - +1 AC after hitting 2 or more targets with fireball until start of next round 9 - Choose a second keyword you can choose to add this keyword to your fireball each time you use it 10 - +1 to reflex, will, and fortitude 11-20 paragon path features 21-30 epic destiny features Not bad. Give the player a choice of damage-type and I'd actually like that. Thanks. I put it together in like five minutes while watching a movie on Neftlix Online. In another thread I threw together a wizard defender and even detailed its defender power...
#17 Janx_14 Apr 17, 2011 19:06:16	A ranged assassin would be cool. They mentioned one of the dev's wanting on a while back, back when they had promised us a third build.  Actually surpsing the more weapon-based Executioner doesnt have a bow at-will. I think someone already mentioned a shadow sorceror. Which since they've already let everyone else take Shadow's guts, I'm guessing this cool concept wasnt done because they want material to be usable by E-classes. A frosty Warden would be sweet for a non-barbarian viking like guy. I think the Storm has some support for this, and a PP, but would be interesting to see the concept taking a bit further. A 'storm' druid. Right now all druid builds kinda lean heavily on their shapechange, with actual 'spells' being more of a flexibility option. While I'm not an essentials fan, they are missing some builds too. While it probably goes without saying, the Sentinal druid is lacking 2 of its 4 seasons. The knight/fighter need more weapon variety. The warpriest has other domains.
#18 Damon_Tor Apr 17, 2011 19:43:24	For existing classes? As much as I dislike choicelessness in builds, it's a bit perplexing to me why there's not an essentials sorcerer class with similar mechanics to the slayer or knight. "Hurr, durr, sorcerer is a spell-caster, it can't be simple to play. It wasn't so in ye olde editions, herp derp." Not that I like Essentials design myself, so it's not a big loss. I agree... You couldn't possibly give it a fireball spell as an MBA and then give it enhancers at various levels... level - Class Feature 1 - Fireball (ranged burst 3 or close blast 3, at-will, MBA/RBA, Cha vs. Reflex 3/5/7d6 damage) 2 - Choose a keyword your fireballs now have that keyword (element) 3 - Deal + Con mod damage with fireball 4 - increase range of fireball by Con mod 5 - +1 attack with fireball 6 - Can choose for center target of fireball to not be affected 7 - + 1 damage with fireball 8 - +1 AC after hitting 2 or more targets with fireball until start of next round 9 - Choose a second keyword you can choose to add this keyword to your fireball each time you use it 10 - +1 to reflex, will, and fortitude 11-20 paragon path features 21-30 epic destiny features I've been working on an Essentials-style sorcerer that plays up the "chaos" angle quite a bit.  You have three basic at-will spells, Touch of Chaos, Chaos Bolt, and Chaos Blast, being a melee touch 1d12 spell vs reflex, a ranged 10 1d10 spell vs reflex, and an Close Blast 3 1d8 spell vs fort.  Your "striker bonus damage" would be a 1d6 you roll to determine secondary effects and damage types.  At level 5/15/25 you roll 1 extra 1d6, so a total of 4 effects at level 25.  These effects would explicitly stack with themselves: if you roll 4 1's you deal 16 extra acid damage and the target gains vulnerable 16 to the next attack.  If you roll a 1, a 2, a 3, and a 4, the entire attack deals acid/cold/thunder/lightning damage, neatly bypassing almost any resistances. 1- +4 damage, the attack deals acid damage, and at level 7/17/27 the target gains vulnerable 2/3/4 to the next attack that hits it. 2- +4 damage, the attack deals cold damage, andat level 7/17/27 the target grants takes a -1 penalty to all defenses against the next attack against it/until the end of your next turn/save ends 3- +4 damage, the attack deals force damage, and at level 7/17/27 you slide the target 1/2/3 squares. 4- +8 damage, the attack deals lightning damage, and at level 7/17/27 one creature within 5 squares the attack did not hit takes 4/6/8 lightning damage. 5- +8 damage, the attack deals radiant damage, and at level 7/17/27 the target grants combat advantage against the next attack against it/until the end of your next turn/save ends 6- +12 damage, the attack deals fire damage, and at level 7/17/27 the target takes ongoing 4/6/8 fire damage (save ends) The progression of the damage numbers help to simulate daily/ecnounter/at-will damage effectively at random.  A round where you roll these dice high is your "daily" damage, a round where you roll them low is your "at-will" while most rounds will even out to something like encounter damage, at higher levels.  The fact that by level 5 you'll be doing double-typed damage almost every attack means resistances probably won't often be terribly relevant to you. Touch of Chaos and Chaos Bolt would be usable as basic attacks. Class Feature Progression: 1- Gain Touch of Chaos, Chaos Bolt, Chaos Blast 3- When you score a critical hit with a sorcerer power, the target takes extra damage equal to your constitution modifier 5- Add an extra 1d6 effect die whenever you use a sorcerer power 7- Add a bonus effect to each effect die result 9- 1/encounter, when you use a sorcerer power, you can reroll any number of effect die 13- When you score a critical hit with a sorcerer power, the target takes extra damage equal to your constitution modifier+4 15- Add an extra 1d6 effect die whenever you use a sorcerer power 17- Improve the bonus effect of each effect die result 19- 2/encounter, when you use a sorcerer power, you can reroll any number of effect die 23- When you score a critical hit with a sorcerer power, the target takes extra damage equal to your constitution modifier+6 25- Add an extra 1d6 effect die whenever you use a sorcerer power 17- Further improve the bonus effect of each effect die result 29- 3/encounter, when you use a sorcerer power, you can reroll any number of effect die. In essence, this means this sorcerer isn't simple to play, but it is very simple to build.
#19 Omnirahk_half-Rahkshi Apr 17, 2011 22:30:40	In no particular order: - the other two seasons for the sentinel class. - an oracle/precognitive class.  Preferably as a build/sub-class of psion.  This is a case where I think the sub-class idea really shines: a precognitive psyshically-gifted character should be a psion, but the leader role may be better suited than the controller role. - a proper necromancer.  I just got Heroes of Shadow today.  You get two spells for summoning undead.  The fluff even talks about how necromancers have a reputation for leading undead armies.  Not with that build you're not.  Sure, you could reflavor existing summoning spells, but they wouldn't benefit from Legioncaller of Moil.  Honestly, it fails to live up to what it claims to be.  That rant probably deserves a thread of its own, but I'm pissed. - a trap-user of some sort.  Me, I'd probably go with a seeker, whose arrows can place traps for later springing.  But honestly, I'd like rules for creating traps the old-fashioned way too: rituals or the martial equivalent to make one and use it in battle if you can.  Definitely with a few rogue or ranger feats to make the classes best-suited to trap-making better able to use them. - perhaps this'll be the transmutation mage, but I'd like to see the old transmuter wizard, spending actions to cast buff spells on allies.  I know the artificer sort of does this, but those powers either emphasize weapons and armor, not the character themself, or else strains the original fluff of the artificer beyond my taste.  But mostly, I think the old stone skin, bull's strength, flameshield feels different from magic weapon, thundering armor, and life-tapping darts. - a bardic music using bard. - And these are more likely as paragon paths, but I'd love to see the Crystal Master for the psion (favorite prestige class ever) and the tattooed monk.
#20 DoctorBadWolf Apr 17, 2011 23:56:36	A alchemist executioner. Focus on using items like grenades, alchemical ammo and traps rather than on melee or ranged weapons.
#21 lokiare Apr 18, 2011 6:19:24	For existing classes? As much as I dislike choicelessness in builds, it's a bit perplexing to me why there's not an essentials sorcerer class with similar mechanics to the slayer or knight. "Hurr, durr, sorcerer is a spell-caster, it can't be simple to play. It wasn't so in ye olde editions, herp derp." Not that I like Essentials design myself, so it's not a big loss. I agree... You couldn't possibly give it a fireball spell as an MBA and then give it enhancers at various levels... level - Class Feature 1 - Fireball (ranged burst 3 or close blast 3, at-will, MBA/RBA, Cha vs. Reflex 3/5/7d6 damage) 2 - Choose a keyword your fireballs now have that keyword (element) 3 - Deal + Con mod damage with fireball 4 - increase range of fireball by Con mod 5 - +1 attack with fireball 6 - Can choose for center target of fireball to not be affected 7 - + 1 damage with fireball 8 - +1 AC after hitting 2 or more targets with fireball until start of next round 9 - Choose a second keyword you can choose to add this keyword to your fireball each time you use it 10 - +1 to reflex, will, and fortitude 11-20 paragon path features 21-30 epic destiny features I've been working on an Essentials-style sorcerer that plays up the "chaos" angle quite a bit.  You have three basic at-will spells, Touch of Chaos, Chaos Bolt, and Chaos Blast, being a melee touch 1d12 spell vs reflex, a ranged 10 1d10 spell vs reflex, and an Close Blast 3 1d8 spell vs fort.  Your "striker bonus damage" would be a 1d6 you roll to determine secondary effects and damage types.  At level 5/15/25 you roll 1 extra 1d6, so a total of 4 effects at level 25.  These effects would explicitly stack with themselves: if you roll 4 1's you deal 16 extra acid damage and the target gains vulnerable 16 to the next attack.  If you roll a 1, a 2, a 3, and a 4, the entire attack deals acid/cold/thunder/lightning damage, neatly bypassing almost any resistances. 1- +4 damage, the attack deals acid damage, and at level 7/17/27 the target gains vulnerable 2/3/4 to the next attack that hits it. 2- +4 damage, the attack deals cold damage, andat level 7/17/27 the target grants takes a -1 penalty to all defenses against the next attack against it/until the end of your next turn/save ends 3- +4 damage, the attack deals force damage, and at level 7/17/27 you slide the target 1/2/3 squares. 4- +8 damage, the attack deals lightning damage, and at level 7/17/27 one creature within 5 squares the attack did not hit takes 4/6/8 lightning damage. 5- +8 damage, the attack deals radiant damage, and at level 7/17/27 the target grants combat advantage against the next attack against it/until the end of your next turn/save ends 6- +12 damage, the attack deals fire damage, and at level 7/17/27 the target takes ongoing 4/6/8 fire damage (save ends) The progression of the damage numbers help to simulate daily/ecnounter/at-will damage effectively at random.  A round where you roll these dice high is your "daily" damage, a round where you roll them low is your "at-will" while most rounds will even out to something like encounter damage, at higher levels.  The fact that by level 5 you'll be doing double-typed damage almost every attack means resistances probably won't often be terribly relevant to you. Touch of Chaos and Chaos Bolt would be usable as basic attacks. Class Feature Progression: 1- Gain Touch of Chaos, Chaos Bolt, Chaos Blast 3- When you score a critical hit with a sorcerer power, the target takes extra damage equal to your constitution modifier 5- Add an extra 1d6 effect die whenever you use a sorcerer power 7- Add a bonus effect to each effect die result 9- 1/encounter, when you use a sorcerer power, you can reroll any number of effect die 13- When you score a critical hit with a sorcerer power, the target takes extra damage equal to your constitution modifier+4 15- Add an extra 1d6 effect die whenever you use a sorcerer power 17- Improve the bonus effect of each effect die result 19- 2/encounter, when you use a sorcerer power, you can reroll any number of effect die 23- When you score a critical hit with a sorcerer power, the target takes extra damage equal to your constitution modifier+6 25- Add an extra 1d6 effect die whenever you use a sorcerer power 17- Further improve the bonus effect of each effect die result 29- 3/encounter, when you use a sorcerer power, you can reroll any number of effect die. In essence, this means this sorcerer isn't simple to play, but it is very simple to build. Isn't Essentials grand? We can throw together a class in just a few minutes and take a day to playtest it and run the numbers and we're done...
#22 ChrisTheS Apr 18, 2011 9:36:49	Doesn't need to be a build, but some ranged powers for fighters (focus on heavy thrown weapons, push/pull effects) would help with Gimli-styled opening gambits.
#23 lokiare Apr 19, 2011 17:36:22	I've always wanted to see a Fighter controller build that uses a long chain. Some powers would pull an enemy, some would push in a burst, others would stun, trap or otherwise make targets lose attacks...
#24 Timmeh Apr 19, 2011 17:49:25	I would have liked the Swordmage to be equal parts martial and arcane; instead of the fully arcane fluffed class we have now. I think a Arcane fluffed Fighter might do the trick. It would be more overkill for the fighter, yes. But cool; and I think that if the first Swordmage had been more along the Half-Arcane/Half-Martial in feeling, that it would have been a more popular class. Blah Blah Blah Melee Artificer Blah Blah  Blah. You've heard that before from me, so I'm not going to mess with that. Otherwise, I don't know. Ranged Weapon Clerics? They've got a little. I expect that if they changed some of the Wisdom weapon attacks to Melee or Ranged Weapon like some of the Artificer attacks that it would work out fine (or better than fine).
#25 magikot9 Apr 22, 2011 19:39:46	A martial controller. It's the only power source still missing that role.
#26 Garthanos Apr 22, 2011 19:45:51	A martial controller. It's the only power source still missing that role. A true martial controller without owing a spell casting source (no primal or whatever req.) for its business you mean.