Now I'm guessing Warden could be a massive typo and turn out to be Warlord, but let's pretend its an upcoming PHB2 class, considering it fits the clues we were given for the classes which included a class that starts with W.
It almost has to be a primal class as I can't see a minotaur preferring an arcane class nor do I see warden as a divine class name. It does mean we won't be seeing any Witch (primal) class which is interesting.
Come on Warden summoning twin spirit hounds to carrel enemies toward him and away from his allies :D
3rd edition druids had enough powers and whatnot to cover controller, healer, defender and striker roles. Just split the powers over all the Primal classes except the barbarian, and rename them.
Shapeshifter into tough forms, that's defender.
Shapeshifter into damaging forms, that's striker
All the nature-controlling zones, that's the controller
All the healing and status removing, so that's hea... leader.
Warden might end up as the Primal Leader.
The Shaman is going to be the Primal Leader.
So, as we already have the Barbarian (Primal Striker), that leaves two more Primal classes: Druid and Warden.
At this point I have no idea which roles they will cover; the druid could be a pure wild-shaping defending maniac, or a weather magic control-boy, I guess, but I don't have any concrete ideas for the Warden (defender with animal spirits like that picture from the cover, or maybe another striker as they said they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid?).
At this point I have no idea which roles they will cover; the druid could be a pure wild-shaping defending maniac, or a weather magic control-boy, I guess, but I don't have any concrete ideas for the Warden (defender with animal spirits like that picture from the cover, or maybe another striker as they said they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid?).
It's also possible that the druid is a second striker (with some controller-like abilities, like the warlock). I'm thinking it's the other way around, though, since the class was originally hybrid. I'm leaning toward Defender for this Warden class because one of the sources that first claimed Striker role for Barbarian also said that there was a primal defender class.
I'm a little bummed, actually, as the term Warden makes me think of a Park Ranger, so I would have much preferred to have the Witch as a Primal Controller and the Druid as the Primal Defender (which it still may be).
*sigh* How many mroe times must I be shown to be right before you just accept my theories as being correct and quit with this whole druid=defender thing?:P
The Warden is confirmed, eh? Verrah naice. Now we just need to figure out if the two divine classes are Theurge/Inquisitor or Incanter/Templar.
There placing more Divine Classes in the PHB2? I thought it was going to be Primal, Ki, and Psionic. With PHB3 covering Elemental and Shadow, before they went back to adding more (if really needed) classes from the first 3 power sources. I could be wrong, but the subtitle on the first PHB; "Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes", just seemed to set things up that way.
There placing more Divine Classes in the PHB2? I thought it was going to be Primal, Ki, and Psionic. With PHB3 covering Elemental and Shadow, before they went back to adding more (if really needed) classes from the first 3 power sources. I could be wrong, but the subtitle on the first PHB; "Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes", just seemed to set things up that way.
The subtitle for PHBII is Arcane, Divine, and Primal Heroes(note I'm not 100% sure I got the order right), so yes they are adding more divine and arcane classes.
There placing more Divine Classes in the PHB2? I thought it was going to be Primal, Ki, and Psionic. With PHB3 covering Elemental and Shadow, before they went back to adding more (if really needed) classes from the first 3 power sources. I could be wrong, but the subtitle on the first PHB; "Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes", just seemed to set things up that way.
Yes they are: 2 new divine classes (so divine power later makes sense with 4 classes in it), 2 new arcane classes (so arcane power later on makes sense with 4 classes as well), and the rest is left for primal classes. Since we know there will be 8 total, it gives us 4 primal classses.
No ki, shadow, psionic or anything else till 2010.
*sigh* How many mroe times must I be shown to be right before you just accept my theories as being correct and quit with this whole druid=defender thing?:P
I realize the Druid will most likely be weather controller boy, and that the Warden will be the defender, I just don't really dig the term Warden, as it also makes me think of that evil bastard in Shawshank Redemption.
I realize the Druid will most likely be weather controller boy, and that the Warden will be the defender, I just don't really dig the term Warden, as it also makes me think of that evil bastard in Shawshank Redemption.
Me too, I was quietly hoping that the W would stand for Witch Doctor
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Warden
man you guys need to retake internet usage 101
Me too, I was quietly hoping that the W would stand for Witch Doctor
Why? 'Witch Doctor' is just another (slightly more racist) term for a shaman.
man you guys need to retake internet usage 101
You need to stop with your passive-aggressive posts (and use proper punctuation and grammar), lest you embarrass yourself further.
Why? 'Witch Doctor' is just another (slightly more racist) term for a shaman.
I don't care, it sounds cool
I realize the Druid will most likely be weather controller boy, and that the Warden will be the defender, I just don't really dig the term Warden, as it also makes me think of that evil bastard in Shawshank Redemption.
"Nothing stops. Nothing... or you will do the hardest time there is. No more protection from the guards. I'll pull you out of that one-bunk Hilton and cast you down with the Sodomites. You'll think you've been ****ed by a train! And the library? Gone... sealed off, brick-by-brick. We'll have us a little book barbecue in the yard. They'll see the flames for miles. We'll dance around it like wild Injuns! You understand me? Catching my drift?... Or am I being obtuse?"
Good god I love that character. Evil bastard doesn't do him justice.
There placing more Divine Classes in the PHB2? I thought it was going to be Primal, Ki, and Psionic. With PHB3 covering Elemental and Shadow, before they went back to adding more (if really needed) classes from the first 3 power sources. I could be wrong, but the subtitle on the first PHB; "Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes", just seemed to set things up that way.
It seems the developers would rather (and I favor this approach) wrap up power sources as quickly as possible so that they can put out the "___ Power" books in a timely manner and have them include all the classes under that header. All of the Martial classes are in print, so Martial Power can come out. PHB II is all but certain at this point to have two more Arcane and two more Divine classes, which will finish up each of those power sources in time for Arcane Power and Divine Power later next year.
Note: This does not account for the Artificer, which is set to be included in a book (Eberron) well after Arcane Power comes out. I'm not saying the plan is flawless, just that it seems to be the plan.
Thats a shame. I was hoping to see classes for each of the power sources by the time PHB3 came out. I figured additional classes for each power source (outside the PHBs) would be placed in the "X Powers" books. With this plan it will almost 2015 by the time we have classes that cover all the sources mentioned in PHB1. Oh well, guess that what homebrew is for.
Try 2011.
2008: PHB1, 4 Martial, 2 Arcane, 2 Divine (Martial Power released)
2009: PHB2, 4 Primal, 2 Arcane, 2 Divine (Arcane Power, Divine Power released)
2010: PHB3, 4 Psionic, 2 Ki, 2 Shadow (Primal Power, Psionic Power released)
2011: PHB4, 4 Elemental, 2 Ki, 2 Shadow (Ki Power, Shadow Power, Elemental Power released)
That gives 4 classes of each source listed in the PHB by 2011. If they stick with the two power source books per year model we may have to wait until 2012 for Elemental Power, but other than that it will be done by the end of 2011.
Edit: This isn't hard facts, just an extrapolation of what has been shown in PHB1 and PHB2 as well as the 2009 release calendar. None of this is set in stone, or even confirmed.
It seems the developers would rather (and I favor this approach) wrap up power sources as quickly as possible so that they can put out the "___ Power" books in a timely manner and have them include all the classes under that header. All of the Martial classes are in print, so Martial Power can come out. PHB II is all but certain at this point to have two more Arcane and two more Divine classes, which will finish up each of those power sources in time for Arcane Power and Divine Power later next year.
Note: This does not account for the Artificer, which is set to be included in a book (Eberron) well after Arcane Power comes out. I'm not saying the plan is flawless, just that it seems to be the plan.
Actually I don't think it is so much wrapping the power source up, so much as making sure the power soure has the bare minimum for it to be a viable power source before moving on. They have made no comments which say that there will be absolutely no new martial classes, even though it is "complete". Additionally, it has been indicated that they might do multiple power books for a single power source.
Thats a shame. I was hoping to see classes for each of the power sources by the time PHB3 came out. I figured additional classes for each power source (outside the PHBs) would be placed in the "X Powers" books. With this plan it will almost 2015 by the time we have classes that cover all the sources mentioned in PHB1. Oh well, guess that what homebrew is for.
Actually with current speculation, we'll have classes for all power sources in 2011.
2008- Arcane, Divine, Martial
2009- Arcane, Divine, Primal
2010- (three of the remaining power sources)
2011- (two power sources from PHBIII and the last remaining one)
I'm not really sure where you got 2015 from.
That gives 4 classes of each source listed in the PHB by 2011.
There are already six arcane classes confirmed. Don't forget about the classes in the setting-specific players' guides.
In answer to the other poster's confusion, I'm pretty certain that the Artificer will be preemptively included in Arcane Power, since the core of the class has already been released for free on Wizards.com. I think Wizards has built their online offerings into their release schedule, which is a strategy I can support.
We are going to be waiting a long time for some of those rules, though. Particularly the monk and psion.
There are already six arcane classes confirmed. Don't forget about the classes in the setting-specific players' guides.
In answer to the other poster's confusion, I'm pretty certain that the Artificer will be preemptively included in Arcane Power, since the core of the class has already been released for free on Wizards.com. I think Wizards has built their online offerings into their release schedule, which is a strategy I can support.
We are going to be waiting a long time for some of those rules, though. Particularly the monk and psion.
Artificer is confirmed as not having anything in Arcane Power at all(unless there are generic arcane feats, but those don't really count).
Artificer is confirmed as not having anything in Arcane Power at all(unless there are generic arcane feats, but those don't really count).
I knew someone was going to beat me back here.
I checked and posted, but unfortunately not in that order. Disappointing, since it seems to confirm multiple Power books. Blech.
I must admit I would be disappointed to see Druids relegated to just a weather controller since Wildshape was one of my favourite things in 3.x but if another class is picking up the ball on that one then I am ok with the name change for my favourite power and I expect that the flavour (especially considering the name Warden) will be pretty similar.
There are already six arcane classes confirmed. Don't forget about the classes in the setting-specific players' guides.
They aren't forgotten, they just can't easily be speculated upon. Especially given we don't even know what settings are going to be incorporated beyond Eberron. (Although Dark Sun seems to be hinted at, and hoped for.)
Is anyone else now considering the Warden as a summonig style class? Perhaps making strong use of spirit animals made manifest or just pets to fill either the defender or striker role. Maybe gaining the ability to wildshape into an animal so he can get in there and mix it up with his companions.
I must admit I would be disappointed to see Druids relegated to just a weather controller since Wildshape was one of my favourite things in 3.x but if another class is picking up the ball on that one then I am ok with the name change for my favourite power and I expect that the flavour (especially considering the name Warden) will be pretty similar.
It's highly suspected that Shamans are going to be the summoning/animal companion(s) class. I remember a certain ampersand referring to a PHB2 leader class that has a helper companion or two. Would definitely fit the flavor of the Shaman imo.
It's highly suspected that Shamans are going to be the summoning/animal companion(s) class. I remember a certain ampersand referring to a PHB2 leader class that has a helper companion or two. Would definitely fit the flavor of the Shaman imo.
Was that Ampersand? I thought it was Confessions.
I'm a little bummed, actually, as the term Warden makes me think of a Park Ranger, so I would have much preferred to have the Witch as a Primal Controller and the Druid as the Primal Defender (which it still may be).
Dan, man, you're a smart poster and I generally respect most of the things you say. That said, I've always disagreed with you about this "Witch" thing, and I'll tell you why:
First of all, "Warden" isn't much worse than several other D&D class-names. You mentioned how "Warden" reminds you of "Park Ranger"? Well "Ranger" also reminds people of "Park Ranger" (or alternatively, "Park Warden"). I also recall thinking that "Fighter" was a stupid name for a class when I first encountered it; it made me think of a jet plane! I've seen several instances of people having difficulty dissociating the term "Cleric" and "clerk". "Monk", "Rogue", "Barbarian", "Samurai", "Warlock", and "Warlord" all have connotation issues as well. In this light, "Warden" doesn't seem so bad to me.
On the other hand, "Witch", to me, doesn't imply a profession at all. Instead, I'd use "Witch" as a synonym for "hag". To me, the term carries a highly gender-specific meaning, and not an especially pleasant one at that. Beyond this, there's the significant potential for "Witch" to be misunderstood as an offence to people of the Wiccan faith; in the same vein, it wouldn't be appropriate to create a class called an "Imam", either. (Then again, they haven't revealed what PH2's Divine "I" class will be called yet... :P )
Ultimately, my logic above isn't faultless, but evidently someone at WotC had similar sentiments, and so it goes. No hard feelings, Dan?
Would it be too much to hope for the Druid becoming strictly a "forces of nature" style controller, and the Warden being a skin-changing defender in the mold of Beorn from The Hobbit.
I certainly hope so.
I'm glad it's not a "Witch".
Honestly, from my point of view a Witch is either the female equal to a Druid or if you have a different take on her she is simply a sorceress.
The Warden could be the nature part of the 3e Ranger that was taken out of 4e Ranger. Since it said Minotaurs make good Wardens, i'm going to assume its a defender, or a melee striker. Ranged strikers and leaders dont seem likely to be needing strength and con, nor charging abilities much.
Witch
Requirement, Arcane power source
Benefit: You weigh as much as a duck and automatically float on water, however you gain vulnerability 10 to fire.
Special: Tieflings may not take this feat because it was their grand pappy and mammy's that had congress with the devil, and they can draw on that whole Hellboy paladin thingy..
I think Witch should be a feat.
Witch
Requirement, Arcane power source
Benefit: You weigh as much as a duck and automatically float on water, however you gain vulnerability 10 to fire.
Special: Tieflings may not take this feat because it was their grand pappy and mammy's that had congress with the devil, and they can draw on that whole Hellboy paladin thingy..
Disappointing, since it seems to confirm multiple Power books.
Alternatively (and more likely IMO), the Artificer will have enough 'bonus' stuff in the Eberron PG that it doesn't need any extras from the Arcane Power book.
Was that Ampersand? I thought it was Confessions.
You're right, it was confessions, my bad.
Alternatively (and more likely IMO), the Artificer will have enough 'bonus' stuff in the Eberron PG that it doesn't need any extras from the Arcane Power book.
Or alternatively, a designer has made a throw away mention to something like Martial Power II(I might be remembering the power source wrong) in an interview, so it is entirely possible that we may evenually get multiple books per power source.
It's bad business to require setting books in order to use all the material in a book that isn't setting specific.
setting specific classes and races will most likely be supported in setting specific books.
as far as "finishing out" the classes for a role... this is just a silly concept. They've made it clear they've no intention of treating it like a grid they need to fill. they don't have specific class and role numbers to hit. I'm sure they'll want there to be a good number of classes in a power source before they put out the splat book just so there is enough interest in the power source, but it should not be assumed that there needs to be a set number. I would wager that the primary reason for having only one new power source in a book is because it's easier to incorporate one new thing into a campaign than a bunch, not to mention it's much easier to design with one theme in mind than try to hit a big spectrum. In business nothing is ever done for one singular reason.
You really think that the first players guide for a setting to come out will be the only player material to come out for that setting? yeah setting specific material has always been workable into other campaigns, but it doesn't make sense for it to be supported in a generic splatbook meant to support the core.
It's bad business to require setting books in order to use all the material in a book that isn't setting specific.
setting specific classes and races will most likely be supported in setting specific books.
as far as "finishing out" the classes for a role... this is just a silly concept. They've made it clear they've no intention of treating it like a grid they need to fill. they don't have specific class and role numbers to hit. I'm sure they'll want there to be a good number of classes in a power source before they put out the splat book just so there is enough interest in the power source, but it should not be assumed that there needs to be a set number. I would wager that the primary reason for having only one new power source in a book is because it's easier to incorporate one new thing into a campaign than a bunch, not to mention it's much easier to design with one theme in mind than try to hit a big spectrum. In business nothing is ever done for one singular reason.
Yup, no campaign setting material in any of the power books, which is why Swordmage will be in Arcane Power.:P
And while they have said that aren't treating class/role combinations as a grid that must be filled out, that doesn't mean that they are going to be avoiding filling it out by any means.
Maybe the warden is 4e's attempt at Aquaman. No, seriously go with me on this one. Aquaman's power is Primal (sort of), and, really it pertains to mainly an aquatic environment. Expand that philosophy, and you have that defender of nature that can talk to plants and animals, and call them to aid his cause. It's not a bad concept, actually.
lol Correction: It has potential not to be a bad concept. This isn't the same as saying it's always not a bad concept. :P
No ki, shadow, psionic or anything else till 2010.
its statements like this that make me
I realize the Druid will most likely be weather controller boy, and that the Warden will be the defender, I just don't really dig the term Warden, as it also makes me think of that evil bastard in Shawshank Redemption.
Would it be too much to hope for the Druid becoming strictly a "forces of nature" style controller, and the Warden being a skin-changing defender in the mold of Beorn from The Hobbit.
There's a series of fantasy novels on "weather wardens" I've seen but never read. That makes me think the warden could still be interpreted as a controller if you look at it as in charge of all of nature in a certain area......commanding the weather and plants, etc. That would leave the druid open for shifting, assuming only one class gets shifting.
Personally, though, I'd still guess the Druid as Controller (weather, etc.) and Warden as Defender (shifting). I suppose they'll have found a way to sidestep the whole historic druid thing, allowing you to create one in your own game using whichever class you want.
Maybe the warden is 4e's attempt at Aquaman. No, seriously go with me on this one. Aquaman's power is Primal (sort of), and, really it pertains to mainly an aquatic environment. Expand that philosophy, and you have that defender of nature that can talk to plants and animals, and call them to aid his cause. It's not a bad concept, actually.
Ha...awesome. Didn't know where you were going at first, but yeah, that could work. Summoning and stuff instead of shifting.
The Warden is confirmed, eh? Verrah naice. Now we just need to figure out if the two divine classes are Theurge/Inquisitor or Incanter/Templar. (Emphasis added.)
Woah, when did I miss those suggestions?? Those sound kind of cool. That's two pairs of cool choices.
Woah, when did I miss those suggestions?? Those sound kind of cool. That's two pairs of cool choices.
Honestly I haven't heard Incanter before, and I must admit I like it better than Invoker. Templar is one that has been around for a while. Honestly I like it as a class name better than Theruge, but my dream team divine class name of Inquisitor/Templar doesn't really leave room for a more spellcastery cleric.
Would it be too much to hope for the Druid becoming strictly a "forces of nature" style controller, and the Warden being a skin-changing defender in the mold of Beorn from The Hobbit.
Here here! *bangs desk*
I don't know how 'druid' became synonymous with 'shapeshifter,' and it bothers me. I've always thought of druids as essentially nature priests. They commune with their environment, calling storms to gather, animals to attack, plants to ensnare, and the very ground to move. Then again, I don't know where I got that association either, so perhaps I'm the one who's wrong.
@Janx_14
The 'witch is female and warlock is male' deal is a recent(ish) fabrication, showing up first in the Scottish language in 1568. Originally, 'Warlock' comes from the old-English waer-loga, meaning roughly traitor or liar. It came to mean 'oath-breaker' (c.1000) and later became synonymous with devil-worshipper (c.1300). Witch actually does include female in its meaning, coming from the old english wicce, a female magician. That word is, of course, the female-gendered version of wicca, which is a male magician. Both of these are noun forms of the verb for practicing magic.
My source for this is a great website I've frequented for a while, www.etymonline.com. I strongly recommend it to anyone interested in linguistics.
In re: Artificer
I don't see why the Artificer's being released after Arcane Power necessitates a second Arcane Power book, nor do I think that will happen. I rather think that DDI will provide the engine for expanding the Artificer so that they don't need to make a whole new book. I'm really hoping that Insider will be their tool for filling in the cracks instead of putting out shoddy supplements simply because they needed to release a handful of new stuff. I'm also hoping that Wizards lets the third-party publishers do their job of expanding ad infinitum on existing material so Wizards can focus on producing genuinely new stuff.
Cheers
Kyle
I also expect a witch class to appear one day, despite any misgivings with the name. They had one in the 3e DMG without any Wiccans going ballistic. Even if some players find the idea of male witch PCs a little perturbing.
Woah, when did I miss those suggestions?? Those sound kind of cool. That's two pairs of cool choices.
Incanter showed up in a post of someone looking through the MM for names that could mean "spellcastery cleric", although I don't remember who, sorry. He found a monster called Eladrin Twilight Incanter, a divine flavored controller with a name that, well, fit the class we're trying to name.
Templar has been floating around for a while. It fits the divine striker quite well I'd say.
Whatever it IS, it likely uses Strength or Con as an important stat (likely both), and has something to do with charging (or else most of the minotaur's bonuses are useless).
I dont see how Warden would be a controller, if a race with +strength and +con with charging bonuses is good at it. Sure, con might be good for spells, but i see nature spells are more important about Wisdom. I'm guessing defender, it seems like a 'defender of the woods' kind of thing.
Im surprised everyone is going on about Templar an Incanterwhatever now, this thread is supposed to be what a Warden is isnt it?
You're technically right, although these threads ("OMFG! Information about future races and classes!") always tend to turn into discussions about what's left to guess.
Try not to take it too seriously.
EDIT: Oh, and, "Inquisitor (Striker) and Theurge (Controller)!" :P
Whatever it IS, it likely uses Strength or Con as an important stat (likely both), and has something to do with charging (or else most of the minotaur's bonuses are useless).
I dont see how Warden would be a controller, if a race with +strength and +con with charging bonuses is good at it. Sure, con might be good for spells, but i see nature spells are more important about Wisdom. I'm guessing defender, it seems like a 'defender of the woods' kind of thing.
I agree. While I can imagine the "Warden" name potentially applying to any role, I think melee (Defender) is the best fit, and the Minotaur's stats suggest this as well.
I agree. While I can imagine the "Warden" name potentially applying to any role, I think melee (Defender) is the best fit, and the Minotaur's stats suggest this as well.
Trying to guess what the new classes will be like is largely extrapolated from guessing what 'archetypes' can be filled as classes. Barbarian was already present, and fairly easy to imagine (the raging berserker who smashes foes with gigantic weapons).
The 3E Druid, on the other hand, had a wide variety of hats, including shapeshifting, healing, summoning, animal/plant control, and weather-oriented blasting. The healing and buffing parts of the druid will likely be moved to the Primal Leader shaman (along with some summoning skills). This leaves the shapeshifter and the force of nature. Since rumors indicate that combining these two archetypes didn't work very well, the logical thought is that these can again be divided into two classes, a Defender and a Controller.
If the Warden is a Defender like we're speculating, then I'm not sure what it will be like if it isn't a shapechanging tank class.
If the Warden is a Defender like we're speculating, then I'm not sure what it will be like if it isn't a shapechanging tank class.
Well my half hearted guess for what a non-shapeshifting defender warden would be, was something along the lines of a ranged defender. Something along the lines of a forest sniper who kills off people who enter his territory while being half a mile away seated comfortably in a tree. I'm not sure how well that would work considering we have the archery path ranger, but this idea for wardens would essentially mark an area instead of a creature, gaining bonuses against any creature located in his declared "territory". *shrugs* It is an idea at least.
Eladrin Twilight Incanter, a divine flavored controller
I don't get this. I see nothing remotely "divine flavoured" about the twilight incanter.
"Inquisitor (Striker) and Theurge (Controller)!" :P
Invoker (strike you down with divine might)!
…But I'm with ya on Theurge.
As for Norton, I think he will defend with spectral beasts and such.
Where do you guys get this? Did something new come out, or did none of you read Races and Classes when it came out? They specifically addressed tha fact that 3e druids had a lot of roles it could fill and asked should the durid be the guy who summons things? the guy who shapeshifts? The guy who casts nature themed spells?
Ultimately they decided that wild shape was the class feature that really made the druid the most unique. However, they said druids would be somewhat more limted as to what forms they could take, having only a selection of forms to choose from. The example given was that a druid could turn into a hawk to spy on an orc camp, turn into a field mouse to sneak into a tent, and then into a bear to kill a few guards before stealing the orcs' attack plans (or somehting like that, lost that particular book, but I know they mentioned hawk, mouse and bear).
So, unless something else has been posted about druids changing that and saying for certain that druids will NOT be wild shaping, I think it's fair to assume that they will certainly be doing so, we have it in a WotC book.
And the Confessions article mentioned a class that would have a buddy, and if you look at the rest of the party role makeup in Shelly's group, none of the other players made a leader class, so it may be safe to assume that the class with a buddy could be a leader.
To me, at least (my
), is that "warden" sounds more like a defender "one who wards" (dictionary definition lists one verb useage of ward "The act of keeping guard or protective watch").And the Confessions article mentioned a class that would have a buddy, and if you look at the rest of the party role makeup in Shelly's group, none of the other players made a leader class, so it may be safe to assume that the class with a buddy could be a leader.
That article specifically calls the class a leader class. So, yeah, it's the shaman.
I don't get this. I see nothing remotely "divine flavoured" about the twilight incanter.
It isn't explicit, but it is a controller that throws around radiant damage and radiant themed attacks that are nothing like any class currently printed. It's good enough for me.
On the note about druids being the weather-controlling caster types and not the shapeshifters:
Where do you guys get this? Did something new come out, or did none of you read Races and Classes when it came out? They specifically addressed tha fact that 3e druids had a lot of roles it could fill and asked should the durid be the guy who summons things? the guy who shapeshifts? The guy who casts nature themed spells?
Ultimately they decided that wild shape was the class feature that really made the druid the most unique. However, they said druids would be somewhat more limted as to what forms they could take, having only a selection of forms to choose from. The example given was that a druid could turn into a hawk to spy on an orc camp, turn into a field mouse to sneak into a tent, and then into a bear to kill a few guards before stealing the orcs' attack plans (or somehting like that, lost that particular book, but I know they mentioned hawk, mouse and bear).
So, unless something else has been posted about druids changing that and saying for certain that druids will NOT be wild shaping, I think it's fair to assume that they will certainly be doing so, we have it in a WotC book.
Grr I have better things I could be doing then reposting this for the 1000th time, but w/e.
The entry in Race and Classes was written before any design work had been done on the Druid(the first draft was written about half a year later). The first draft of the Druid was a hybrid wildshaper/weather mage. It was going to cover two roles, one when it was shifted and one when in its true form. However we later learned that in playtesting a striker/controller that they had been working on was found to not be interesting as changing between roles was just like flipping a switch. So they decided against doing hybrid roles. This naturally means that the Druid is no longer a hybrid class. One of the roles has to have been dropped. There is technically no strong evidence as to which of the two aspects were diminished, but speculation is high to it being shapeshifting that was diminished due to the fact that we are currently controller starved and have more strikers than anything else.
It isn't explicit, but it is a controller that throws around radiant damage and radiant themed attacks that are nothing like any class currently printed. It's good enough for me.
It has one power (from a total of five) that does radiant damage. I assume you consider star-pact warlocks to be "divine flavoured" as well, right? Or wizards, who also get several spells that deal radiant damage?
From the MM: "Eladrin are graceful warriors and wizards". That suggests that all the 'spellcasters' on those two pages are intended to be 'wizards'. In the absence of any evidence for the twilight incanter being divine, I'm going to assume that it was meant to be an arcane caster as well.
And the Confessions article mentioned a class that would have a buddy, and if you look at the rest of the party role makeup in Shelly's group, none of the other players made a leader class, so it may be safe to assume that the class with a buddy could be a leader.
I didn't catch this because I don't normally read that article. Are you certain based on context that she wasn't talking about the beastmaster Ranger from Martial Power? Was she specifically referring to a PHB2 class?
EDIT: I'm an idiot. This was answered by another post that says the article specifically refers to a leader.
It has one power (from a total of five) that does radiant damage. I assume you consider star-pact warlocks to be "divine flavoured" as well, right? Or wizards, who also get several spells that deal radiant damage?
From the MM: "Eladrin are graceful warriors and wizards". That suggests that all the 'spellcasters' on those two pages are intended to be 'wizards'. In the absence of any evidence for the twilight incanter being divine, I'm going to assume that it was meant to be an arcane caster as well.
Regardless, just like there is absolutely nothing saying this character is divine there is absolutely nothing saying this character is arcane either. Both flavors would fit the monster just fine. And no matter what, the name still very aptly describes the class we're trying to name.
And, no, the warriors/wziards line has no bearing on this character. It just indicates the eladrin preference for warriors and wizards. It certainly didn't stop the Eladrin Fey Knight from being templated off a paladin -- which is neither warrior nor wizard -- and it wouldn't stop the Twilight Incanter from being our divine controller.
Regardless, just like there is absolutely nothing saying this character is divine there is absolutely nothing saying this character is arcane either. Both flavors would fit the monster just fine. And no matter what, the name still very aptly describes the class we're trying to name.
And, no, the warriors/wziards line has no bearing on this character. It just indicates the eladrin preference for warriors and wizards. It certainly didn't stop the Eladrin Fey Knight from being templated off a paladin -- which is neither warrior nor wizard -- and it wouldn't stop the Twilight Incanter from being our divine controller.
One thing I would like to point out is that in the MM, they seemed to avoid using class names in monster names. There is a grand total of 2 monsters with confirmed class names in their name(and that is including PHBII classes that are confirmed). And those are the gnoll claw fighter and cyclops storm shaman.
The warden is the primal defender, possibly with some leaderish tendencies.
That's the best guess at this point though depending on how they do it the warden could possibly be a divine class. Most likely though it will be primal and defender appears to be the best fit for the role.
Last i checked Witch was just a female Warlock.
Actually it is derogatory to call a witch a warlock in the real world. Warlock means "deceiver", "liar" or "traitor".
A male witch is still called a witch.
I think the Witches of Rashemen would be angry too if you called them warlocks. ;)
A male witch is still called a witch.
Hrmm, not according to the dictionary. but then, what does it know, eh? :p
–noun
1. a man who practices the black arts; a male witch; sorcerer.
2. a fortuneteller or conjurer.
it is derogatory to call a witch a warlock in the real world
Of course, if we believe the dubious source that it is, by the dictionary, "witch" is also an insult:
–noun
2. an ugly or mean old woman; hag:
Of course, if we believe the dubious source that it is, by the dictionary, "witch" is also an insult:
Culturally subjective terminology FTW. :P
His own offencive powers can be based around summoned spirit-animals, using spirits of nature (just imagine the spirits that live in a forest rising up at once against someone), having spirits ride enemies, having spirits not just ride but enter them and move them that way, etc.
for instance if I was to give an Australian a 'Thumbs up', I'd probably get a black eye
No you wouldn't. And I have no idea why you think you would.
No you wouldn't. And I have no idea why you think you would.
I've heard it is a rude gesture in other parts of the world including Australia, the point though is that some gestures or words while meaning one thing to some and to others something else. Sorry about the mistake, but can we please get the thread back on topic?
I've heard it is a rude gesture in other parts of the world including Australia, the point though is that some gestures or words while meaning one thing to some and to others something else. Sorry about the mistake, but can we please get the thread back on topic?
Its the peace sign with your palm towards you that gets you punched. Remember when the first Bush went to Australia and gave the peace sign from his limo? We can deffinately see where W gets it from. ;)
I've heard it is a rude gesture in other parts of the world including Australia, the point though is that some gestures or words while meaning one thing to some and to others something else. Sorry about the mistake, but can we please get the thread back on topic?
Maybe Wardens find the thumbs up offensive? :P
Maybe Wardens find the thumbs up offensive? :P
Nice. :P Depends on the power source maybe.
has anyone noticed that warden would make the third player class with the word "war" in it, after warlock and warlord?
Nope :P
I think they should make a new martial character called Warder based on the Warders in the Wheel of Time series.
The reason I think the Warden might be a Controller is that the name includes "ward". I can imagine it being a class built around battlefield control: the Warden can places wards, zones that limit the ability of enemies to cross into or through them. It is kind of like the idea of a forest ringed by magic totems that keep trespassers at bay.
The reason that I think the Druid might be a defender is that I still think it will be built around wildshaping powers. Some people have noted that the Druid as written up in an early draft was a Hybrid class split between Controller weathermage and Striker wildshaping powers. However, the central concept of that build was that the Druid transformed; that was the entire reason it became a Hybrid class in the first place. So, I think the wildshaping is the dominant concept of the 4E Druid. With that in mind, I think Defender is the most obvious choice for a class that can turn into a bear. While Striker is a possibility, the Barbarian is already doing that, and everyone knows we have a lot of Strikers as it is.
Its the peace sign with your palm towards you that gets you punched. Remember when the first Bush went to Australia and gave the peace sign from his limo? We can deffinately see where W gets it from. ;)
Same thing in England... from what I've read this dates back to the Hundred Years War in the 14th and 15th centuries. Not the oldest such hand signal to be meaningful by far, famously the "thumbs up" and "thumbs down" come from Roman gladiatorial contests, and "the bird" was also a Roman gesture. /pedant
The reason that I think the Druid might be a defender is that I still think it will be built around wildshaping powers. Some people have noted that the Druid as written up in an early draft was a Hybrid class split between Controller weathermage and Striker wildshaping powers. However, the central concept of that build was that the Druid transformed; that was the entire reason it became a Hybrid class in the first place. So, I think the wildshaping is the dominant concept of the 4E Druid. With that in mind, I think Defender is the most obvious choice for a class that can turn into a bear. While Striker is a possibility, the Barbarian is already doing that, and everyone knows we have a lot of Strikers as it is.
Yeah, one slight problem with that line of reasoning, there is evidence that suggests that the Druid was a Striker/Controller hybrid when it was still a hybrid. So reducing it to primarily being wildshaping would reduce it to being a striker, not a defender.
Druids in 3ed were more like a representation of all the Druid-caste is (though pieces of it were relegated to Wizards, Clerics, and Bards), and thus were members of the most overpowered class the game offered. We're looking at class balance now, and somethings have to be lost in favour of class balance. Polymorph on the whole is way overpowered, and if you check out the Doppleganger, it no longer gains the benefits of the shape it changes into, it just appears that way. Wildshape may have to go the way of Doppleganger's Polymorph; it's just way too powerful a move.
Summoning Conjuration was also one of the most overpowered groups of spells that 3ed offered; to be able to call more underlings to the battle front to be a meatshield and attack force again was completely offbalance. However, summoning is something that can be reworked with the concept of Primal to actually fit into a character role. Just as the Barbarian channels the spirits within to release through his/her attacks, the Druid could summon "spirits" of nature, various totem animal spirits that would make single attacks, rather than join the battlefield (so basically, like a spell, only it's a murder of ethereal, færie crows that attacks the targets). Or maybe it's a greater spirit of nature that is channeled - much like Summoning is done in a plethora of video games, such as Golden Sun or Final Fantasy. I can see that as a Druid role.
The healing and support aspects of the Druid will go to the Shaman, but I do not think that Wildshape will go to the Warden. The Warden seems to me more of a Shepard of the Forest (no, not a Treant), or else the forest's guardian who will use channel the spirits of the forest to keep intruders away from harming it (or, in fact, not just a forest, but any wilderness or primal region).
The major difference I see between the Warden and the Ranger is philosophical. The Ranger epitomises the hunter, the woodsman; that is, a conservationist who sees the wild as a resource to be used. The Warden is a preservationist, I believe, that sees the wild as something that should be protected, but not exploited. The relationship between the Ranger and the Druid in 3ed was something to that effect, looking back at my old 3.5 Player's Handbook.
However much I like the concept of the Warden as a Primal Defender who protects the wilderness, it's always good to look at other possibilities. The Warden could also be something along the lines of a Jailor - remember the Hero-turned-villain Night Elf Jailor from Frozen Throne? Her class was Warden. I've seen Warden used as a synonym for a Jailor as well in other places. Warden could possibly be even a Divine Controller that keeps the enemies locked within a certain space. Now, I prefer the Primal Defender Warden, but it's good to see that we're not limited in our options. The I or T could even be a Primal class that we don't know of yet, should Warden NOT be Primal. Still, I hope it is a Primal class.
Basically, a class that uses only simple weapons (that can be found naturally in the wild) and his own body to attack. For instance, biting enemies, or growing claws to swipe at them. Sort of like Tarzan if he could turn into an animal. This is why I'm guessing that the wildshape abilities got passed from the Druid to the Warden when the class was unhybridized.
It's also possible that the Druid is a second Primal Striker (with a minor in controller, like the Warlock). They aren't necessarily aiming for symmetry, after all. Then again, there aren't many controllers around, so controller is the favored role (though we are getting the Sorcerer and a possible Divine Controller class).
Yeah, one slight problem with that line of reasoning, there is evidence that suggests that the Druid was a Striker/Controller hybrid when it was still a hybrid. So reducing it to primarily being wildshaping would reduce it to being a striker, not a defender.
Not necessarily. If they are already going to overhaul its role, there is nothing stopping them from throwing out both the Controller and Striker aspects. Really, that early design draft of the Druid that has been talked about in no way shape or form can be considered an accurate image of what the final Druid will look like.
I tend to think it will be a more melee-oriented class, based on the fact that the Minotaur race favors it. Also because the idea of the Primal power source, in and of itself, evokes themes of channeling and working with the wild, savage aspect of things.
I like the speculation brought forth earlier that the Warden might be capable of protecting specific people, as well as the idea that he might be capable of somehow setting up an area protected by him. Hey, what if the Warden worked with plant spirits/creatures to defend his allies? It has been talked a lot about animal spirits, but the idea of a primal power source should include plants, too.
Waiting for March to arrive is getting progressively harder to do with all these tidbits flying around... :D
C
As another class design tidbit that might give a clue as to what the Warden does, one of the previews mentioned something about a Barbarian ability that involved biting an enemy. Since I didn't see anything like that in the barbarian playtest article, it's possible that skills of that type ended up metamorphosing into the Warden.
Jus because it wasn't in the playtest article, that doesn't necessarily mean it was moved to another class. I don't really see how a class named the Warden (which I believe to be a natural protector-type) would run around biting people. Don't get me wrong, the Warden may very well have abailities that would make it seem 'uncivilized' to some, I just think they would be capable and bound by much more restraint than that.
I don't know why but for some reason I really want the Warden's main attack stat to be Constitution. There aren't enough Constitution attacks in the game yet imo.
Agreed, that would be very cool, using his primal toughness to defend his buddies.
I really want the Warden's main attack stat to be Constitution.
Given that minotaurs are supposed to favour the warden class, that seems to be a strong possibility.
Which could mean a second Striker.
Last i checked Witch was just a female Warlock.
The Warden could be the nature part of the 3e Ranger that was taken out of 4e Ranger. Since it said Minotaurs make good Wardens, i'm going to assume its a defender, or a melee striker. Ranged strikers and leaders dont seem likely to be needing strength and con, nor charging abilities much.
Actually, "witch" is a term generally used in wiccan or other more natural/spiritual religions for those who use magic. "Warlock" actually means oathbreak, not a male witch or magic user as WAY too many people seem to believe. Okay, job done I'm out.
Actually, "witch" is a term generally used in wiccan or other more natural/spiritual religions for those who use magic. "Warlock" actually means oathbreak, not a male witch or magic user as WAY too many people seem to believe. Okay, job done I'm out.
Dictionary.com
war⋅lock /ˈwɔrˌlɒk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [wawr-lok] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a man who practices the black arts; a male witch; sorcerer
2. a fortuneteller or conjurer.
American Heritage Dictionary(from Dictionary.com)
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This war·lock (wôr'lŏk') Pronunciation Key
n. A male witch, sorcerer, wizard, or demon.
And because I can, here is witch also.
Dictionary.com
witch /wɪtʃ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [wich] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person, now esp. a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic, esp. black magic or the black art; sorceress. Compare warlock.
2. an ugly or mean old woman; hag: the old witch who used to own this building.
3. a person who uses a divining rod; dowser.
American Heritage Dictionary(from Dictionary.com)
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This witch (wĭch) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery.
2. A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
3. A hag.
4. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
5. Informal A woman or girl considered bewitching.
6. One particularly skilled or competent at one's craft: "A witch of a writer, [she] is capable of developing an intensity that verges on ferocity" (Peter S. Prescott).
Remember kids, check your dictionary before saying someone got the definition of something wrong. :D :P
Dictionary.com
war⋅lock /ˈwɔrˌlɒk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [wawr-lok] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a man who practices the black arts; a male witch; sorcerer
2. a fortuneteller or conjurer.
American Heritage Dictionary(from Dictionary.com)
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This war·lock (wôr'lŏk') Pronunciation Key
n. A male witch, sorcerer, wizard, or demon.
And because I can, here is witch also.
Dictionary.com
witch /wɪtʃ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [wich] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person, now esp. a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic, esp. black magic or the black art; sorceress. Compare warlock.
2. an ugly or mean old woman; hag: the old witch who used to own this building.
3. a person who uses a divining rod; dowser.
American Heritage Dictionary(from Dictionary.com)
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This witch (wĭch) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery.
2. A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
3. A hag.
4. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
5. Informal A woman or girl considered bewitching.
6. One particularly skilled or competent at one's craft: "A witch of a writer, [she] is capable of developing an intensity that verges on ferocity" (Peter S. Prescott).
Remember kids, check your dictionary before saying someone got the definition of something wrong. :D :P
...Because I can...
You're particular dictionary references are new and biased, sorry.
…Please tell me they are not American…?
…Please tell me they are not American…?
Would you consider The New Oxford Dictionary of English (1998) to be a sufficiently reputable source? It is generally considered the arbiter of what words mean in British English (inasmuch as our language has an arbiter - we're not the French with their silly Academie Francaise to "preserve the purity of the mother-tongue", after all!)
warlock > noun a man who practises witchcraft; a sorcerer.
- ORIGIN Old English waerloga 'traitor, scoundrel, monster', also 'the Devil', from waer 'covenant' + an element related to leogan 'belie, deny'. From its application to the Devil, the word was transferred in Middle English to a person in league with the Devil, and hence a sorcerer. It was chiefly Scots until given wider currency by Sir Walter Scott.
witch > noun 1 a woman thought to have evil magic powers. Witches are popularly depicted as wearing a black cloak and pointed hat, and flying on a broomstick.
* a follower or practitioner of modern witchcraft; a Wiccan priest or priestess. * informal an ugly or unpleasant old woman; a hag. * a girl or woman capable of enchanting or bewitching a man.
(use 2 - a type of fish, and use as a verb 'to witch' omitted because I don't have all day to copy stuff by hand...)
- ORIGIN Old English wicca (masculine), wicce (feminine), wiccian (verb).
...Because I can...
You're particular dictionary references are new and biased, sorry.
…Please tell me they are not American…?
Actually they might be new, but if there is a bias then it is in the public because dictionaries represent the common perception of the word....or something like that. I can pretty much guarantee that almost any dictionary that you look up will contain similair definitions to the ones I posted above. Not that I'm even sure why I am argueing this, but oh well.
Oh the sentence should be "Your particular" not "You're particular". :P
Oh the sentence should be "Your particular" not "You're particular". :P
But you are peculiar…oh wait!
But you are peculiar…oh wait!
:embarrass Shush you, my brain turned off there for a moment.
Warlock and witch are among those terms. Popular usage doesn't fit with historical usage, and may offend some people depending on how it's used.
If you talk to a pagan/wiccan they'll likely take offense at being called a warlock since in their belief structure that means oathbreaker. Also to them witch can be male or female (and OED and one of the other mentions that as one of the definitions though they don't explicitly say 'male or female practioner'. Also in the show Charmed, warlocks were all oathbreakers and those who made deals with the demons. They even mention male witches though most of the 'charmed ones' were female.
Personally if I was called a warlock in RL I'd be offended, I'm not an oathbreaker after all, but then anyone likely to call me a warlock wouldn't care since they'd likely think I'm evil anyway. Now having a warlock character in an RPG (D&D, Rifts, etc.) I have no problems with. These are just class names and I can describe my character in terms other than that should I choose to. We are talking about a fantasy RPG not real world history after all.
Try 2011.
2008: PHB1, 4 Martial, 2 Arcane, 2 Divine (Martial Power released)
2009: PHB2, 4 Primal, 2 Arcane, 2 Divine (Arcane Power, Divine Power released)
2010: PHB3, 4 Psionic, 2 Ki, 2 Shadow (Primal Power, Psionic Power released)
2011: PHB4, 4 Elemental, 2 Ki, 2 Shadow (Ki Power, Shadow Power, Elemental Power released)
I guess that means we get 5th edition in 2012
On topic, I think the Warden, the class the thread was created to speculate about, will be a defender that can transform all or parts of it's body into that of an animal.
Bel
Popular usage doesn't fit with historical usage,...
...Also in the show Charmed...
:D "popular" culture indeed! I'm not going to listen to some american TV show to learn the new definition of "warlock"! :p
My 2c.
Even if Warlock does mean "traitor" (which it probably does), witch is hardly a neutral term itself. In the middle ages, if you called someone a witch, you were accusing that person of going out into the forest at night to eat babies in the Devil's name. I am pretty sure that using "witch" as a term with no negative connotations is a complete modern invention.
Getting in on the warlock/witch name thing:
Even if Warlock does mean "traitor" (which it probably does), witch is hardly a neutral term itself. In the middle ages, if you called someone a witch, you were accusing that person of going out into the forest at night to eat babies in the Devil's name. I am pretty sure that using "witch" as a term with no negative connotations is a complete modern invention.
Try 1954. See my previous post.
I might have brought this up in a different thread, or just thought it to myself, can't recall, but did anyone else take it as a big hint that instead of describing a Minotaur Warden, they described a Minotaur Paladin? Perhaps a small hint that the Warden is some sort of Paladin of the Woods, a defender of nature, etc.?
My 2c.
I don't know if I'd cite THAT as a reason to think that a Warden is a defender of nature. They probably put a Paladin in the character concept section to avoid spoilers, to keep people from homebrewing the class (even though they will), and create discussions like this one.
I do, however, agree that the Warden will be a defender of nature, but I also see it as being one who uses nature and the creatures of nature as an ally in combat. One who communes with nature, maybe even has Nature based rituals.
Didn't we go through all this warlock discussion when the warlock class came out?
Yes. I still can't believe some dim minded fellow players thought that the Warlock could have the Divine power source. Wonky fluff/style aside, it is clearly an Arcane class.
There's a couple of possibilities:
- A primal-oriented version of the ranger, who is a Defender to set him apart. Focuses mostly on simple weapons like clubs and spears, as well as ranged throwing weapons.
- The warden might still be a lycanthropic/shapeshifting class, but this seems a little less likely now that we've seen the druid.
The new druid article makes me wonder just what the Warden is supposed to be. Surprisingly, from what I hear, the druid seems to cover most of the bases when it comes to wildshape.
There's a couple of possibilities:
- A primal-oriented version of the ranger, who is a Defender to set him apart. Focuses mostly on simple weapons like clubs and spears, as well as ranged throwing weapons.
- The warden might still be a lycanthropic/shapeshifting class, but this seems a little less likely now that we've seen the druid.
Based on what we know of the Minotaur and the Druid, my best guess is a Defender that uses the weather. Huh?
- A primal-oriented version of the ranger, who is a Defender to set him apart. Focuses mostly on simple weapons like clubs and spears, as well as ranged throwing weapons.
Maybe, only if they went this rout you'd have to wonder why they gave the beastmaster build to the ranger rather than saving it for a far more appropriate class.
Even if Warlock does mean "traitor" (which it probably does), witch is hardly a neutral term itself. In the middle ages, if you called someone a witch, you were accusing that person of going out into the forest at night to eat babies in the Devil's name. I am pretty sure that using "witch" as a term with no negative connotations is a complete modern invention.
Indeed, the historic preservers of shamanic/pagan-derived herbalism and divinary practices (i.e. 'magic') in Christian Western Europe (particularly England) were known as the cunning folk (from which we get the word "wizard" or "wise man/woman"). Witch (as well as Warlock) was primarily an insult, describing more or less fictional practitioners of Satanic "dark arts" or was used in the context of the "white witch" another name for cunning folk.
Definitely some type of keeper of the wilderness, animals or no.
Also, IIRC, wasn't one of the paragon paths for the minotaur kind of like a spirit talker?. I think that a society so closely linked with savagery, demons (in the case of evil ones) and nature (in the case of good or unaligned ones) would be able to commune with spirits.
I thought the spirit talker was maybe a nod to the DL minotaur Nephera. She was a mystic who spoke with the dead and set up ancestor worship among the minotaurs of Ansalon. Not that such a thing has never been in another story, or that it'd be a horrible development, or that the warden as an animal spirit summoner would suck.
Just saying that in general I'm not too familiar with seeing "minotaurs" and "spirits" together...let alone animal and nature spirits. (Unless maybe you count Ferdinand the Bull, an old favorite of mine who always used to stop and smell the flowers! :D)To give a contrasting example, wise, graceful, and archeriffic elves are a fantasy staple, hence the cleric (okay maybe druid would be better), rogue, and ranger class suggestions for elves.
Class Description: Seeing as the Druid has the whole shifting thing covered I think we can rule that out for the Warden. Also the Shifter with the animals on the cover of the PHB2 seems to be to lithe to be a defender, so I err on the side of her being a Shaman. I think the Warden will be to Primal what the Swordmage is to Arcane.
Key Abilities: Based on the Minotaur article and the other two PHB Defenders, I'm pretty sure two of the key abilities will be Str and Con. As for the third I can only guess but I'd like to see Wisdom as the third key ability.
Proficiencies: Both the Druid and Barbarian have cloth, leather, and hide proficiencies. This fits with the au natuale theme of the Primal source I don't see the Warden getting any proficiencies with metallic armor. We'll see simple melee and simple ranged but I'm on the fence when it comes to military melee. Wielding staffs or clubs as implements the same way a Swordmage wields their sword would be cool but the 4th edition mantra seems to be down with over regulation.
Hitpoints/Healing Surges: Looking at the 3 Defenders we have now you can get a good idea what this section'll look like.
Builds: Again, I know the Design and Development team keeps saying "down with needless symmetry" all the other defenders have one for assault one for defense. I don't see that changing.
Powers: I'd bet gold to silver that Shillelagh is an at-will power. I think what we'll get are nature themed Paladin/Swordmage powers. Entangling Roots, Thorns, Earthquakes, Storms, that all keep the attacker focused on the Warden.
The big X factor in my opinion, the one that's going to make us all go, "Wow, that certainly differentiates them from the other defenders" will be the class feature. I haven't the foggiest idea what their class features will look like.
Here are my predictions based on all information currently in print and on DnDi:
Class Description: Seeing as the Druid has the whole shifting thing covered I think we can rule that out for the Warden. Also the Shifter with the animals on the cover of the PHB2 seems to be to lithe to be a defender, so I err on the side of her being a Shaman. I think the Warden will be to Primal what the Swordmage is to Arcane.
Key Abilities: Based on the Minotaur article and the other two PHB Defenders, I'm pretty sure two of the key abilities will be Str and Con. As for the third I can only guess but I'd like to see Wisdom as the third key ability.
Proficiencies: Both the Druid and Barbarian have cloth, leather, and hide proficiencies. This fits with the au natuale theme of the Primal source I don't see the Warden getting any proficiencies with metallic armor. We'll see simple melee and simple ranged but I'm on the fence when it comes to military melee. Wielding staffs or clubs as implements the same way a Swordmage wields their sword would be cool but the 4th edition mantra seems to be down with over regulation.
Hitpoints/Healing Surges: Looking at the 3 Defenders we have now you can get a good idea what this section'll look like.
Builds: Again, I know the Design and Development team keeps saying "down with needless symmetry" all the other defenders have one for assault one for defense. I don't see that changing.
Powers: I'd bet gold to silver that Shillelagh is an at-will power. I think what we'll get are nature themed Paladin/Swordmage powers. Entangling Roots, Thorns, Earthquakes, Storms, that all keep the attacker focused on the Warden.
The big X factor in my opinion, the one that's going to make us all go, "Wow, that certainly differentiates them from the other defenders" will be the class feature. I haven't the foggiest idea what their class features will look like.
Sounds cool. I love bringing back the Shillelagh in some form or another. The other powers, though, could fit a defender class but flavor-wise sound more like the druid (IMHO).
Fighter - Any sort of 'warrior', especially those with heavy weapons or sword-and-shield.
Ranger - The skilled archer, woodsman, or two-weapon dervish.
Rogue - The sneaky thief, secret agent, or trickster.
Warlord - The 'noble' fighter or general who inspires his allies to greater deeds.
Wizard - The mage who learns spells by studying incantations.
Warlock - The mage who learns spells by communing with otherworldly entities.
Swordmage - The 'magic knight' who combines sword and spell.
Paladin - The noble or holy knight devoted to a religion or cause.
Cleric - The crusading warrior-priest.
Thus, the new classes we know about so far would be...
Barbarian - The savage warrior who fights by working himself into a berserk rage.
Bard - The magicial musician who bewitches his enemies and inspires his allies.
Druid - The primal mage who communes with nature and transforms into the forms of beasts.
Two of the classes we can extrapolate from previous editions and information we know so far:
Sorcerer - The mage who learns spells through innate talent, whose spells are wild and untamed.
Shaman - The tribal priest who communes with natural spirits to aid his allies.
Of the 'completely new' classes, the Invoker (if it's the divine controller) is the easiest to envision; it would be the robed priest who focuses more on smiting infidels than healing. Avenger and Warden are a little harder to guess from an archetypical point of view, since we don't know which direction they'll take them in. Hopefully they'll have some coherent basis in archetypes which haven't been explored as separate classes yet, rather than being a knock off of another class (The paladin, but primal) or an eclectic collection of powers without any kind of unifying theme.
Warden: a warrior of nature who mimics the power of a bear and the cunning of a wolf, using his surroundings to protect his allies and hamper his foes
Avenger: a focused and devoted warrior who hunts down and smites those he deems to be enemies of his faith
I see an Avenger as sort of a next step for armed devotees of a faith. Battle Clerics just happen to use weapons while leading his allies in the name of his faith. Paladins defend those in need and shelter his allies. Avengers more actively seek out evil and acts to destroy it as quickly and efficiently as possible. I could almost describe it as a Holy Barbarian/Ranger.
Wardens I see as nature warriors that use natural characteristics (almost an "animal-forms" Druid who doesn't actually shapeshift, sorta) to enhance themselves and protect his allies. They could also use their surroundings to hamper their enemies. I keep picturing the enemies in 13th Warrior, though simply saying a more stoic barbarian is perhaps more to the point.
If the Warden is going to be a defender, then he has to have some kind of marking ability or combat challenge unique to it, like the fighter has combat challenge, while the swordmage has aegis's. What ability would a primal warrior use that makes him dangerous to ignore in battle? That feature of the class will likely be what makes the Warden so much different from the fighter, swordmage, and paladin classes.
Random brainstorm.
Nature's Challenge: The Warden challenges a target it is adjacent to, marking it. Yadda yadda yadda enemy makes an attack that does not include the Warden, the target is entangled with roots, being immediately immobilized until end of it's turn and probably taking damage of some sort (something static like DC I'm thinking, maybe = Con mod or something simple like that).
Just a basic outline but hopefully the idea is conveyed.
Random brainstorm.
Nature's Challenge: The Warden challenges a target it is adjacent to, marking it. Yadda yadda yadda enemy makes an attack that does not include the Warden, the target is entangled with roots, being immediately immobilized until end of it's turn and probably taking damage of some sort (something static like DC I'm thinking, maybe = Con mod or something simple like that).
Just a basic outline but hopefully the idea is conveyed.
That is along the lines of what I was thinking, but the idea of vines and thorns for primal is somewhat cliche. I hope they come up with something better than that. Don't get me wrong, that is a fitting idea, but I hope they make it as different as the swordmage was from the fighter. Hope is isn't too extreme.....like as your opponent shifts a bear pops out of the bushes and claws him in the face. haha.
Following that idea, I can see the following archetypes:
Wardens I see as nature warriors that use natural characteristics (almost an "animal-forms" Druid who doesn't actually shapeshift, sorta) to enhance themselves and protect his allies. They could also use their surroundings to hamper their enemies. I keep picturing the enemies in 13th Warrior, though simply saying a more stoic barbarian is perhaps more to the point.
Upon thinking about it, I think the Warden may resemble the 'totem barbarian' variant from 3rd edition UA. Instead of raging, though, he'll 'borrow' the power of a specific totem spirit which carries over into his fighting style. For instance, a wolf warden would focus on charging in and knocking enemies prone, while a bear warden would specialize more in immobilization attacks and grappling. He'll probably use hide armor (since I don't see a primal class using metal armor besides possibly the barbarian) and simple weapons like clubs and spears. To help in his role as a defender, he'll probably either get DEX as a secondary ability score, and/or a bonus to AC (beast hide?) if he's wearing hide armor or lighter.
A few of his powers might transform him into his totem animal, but he probably won't specialize in shapeshifting to the same extent as the Druid. I can see his 'marking' ability being some sort of "primal roar" attack which paralyzes nearby enemies in fear, or gives some sort of penalty to attacks. Making the marking skill a close burst would set the warden apart as the kind of defender that rushes into the fray to lock down a group of enemies (perhaps he'll have some secondary controller characteristics).
Upon thinking about it, I think the Warden may resemble the 'totem barbarian' variant from 3rd edition UA. Instead of raging, though, he'll 'borrow' the power of a specific totem spirit which carries over into his fighting style. For instance, a wolf warden would focus on charging in and knocking enemies prone, while a bear warden would specialize more in immobilization attacks and grappling. He'll probably use hide armor (since I don't see a primal class using metal armor besides possibly the barbarian) and simple weapons like clubs and spears. To help in his role as a defender, he'll probably either get DEX as a secondary ability score, and/or a bonus to AC (beast hide?) if he's wearing hide armor or lighter.
A few of his powers might transform him into his totem animal, but he probably won't specialize in shapeshifting to the same extent as the Druid. I can see his 'marking' ability being some sort of "primal roar" attack which paralyzes nearby enemies in fear, or gives some sort of penalty to attacks. Making the marking skill a close burst would set the warden apart as the kind of defender that rushes into the fray to lock down a group of enemies (perhaps he'll have some secondary controller characteristics).
Bravo!
Upon thinking about it, I think the Warden may resemble the 'totem barbarian' variant from 3rd edition UA. Instead of raging, though, he'll 'borrow' the power of a specific totem spirit which carries over into his fighting style. For instance, a wolf warden would focus on charging in and knocking enemies prone, while a bear warden would specialize more in immobilization attacks and grappling. He'll probably use hide armor (since I don't see a primal class using metal armor besides possibly the barbarian) and simple weapons like clubs and spears. To help in his role as a defender, he'll probably either get DEX as a secondary ability score, and/or a bonus to AC (beast hide?) if he's wearing hide armor or lighter.
A few of his powers might transform him into his totem animal, but he probably won't specialize in shapeshifting to the same extent as the Druid. I can see his 'marking' ability being some sort of "primal roar" attack which paralyzes nearby enemies in fear, or gives some sort of penalty to attacks. Making the marking skill a close burst would set the warden apart as the kind of defender that rushes into the fray to lock down a group of enemies (perhaps he'll have some secondary controller characteristics).
Oh very good! I suddenly realized while reading that one of the most fitting features would have been Con to AC, but now that the Druid has it it's practically impossible. I would have really preferred the Druid's Con build to be different, namely with your Con fueling some small healing to allies, not AC at all. But well, simply fills out the niche I envisioned for the Warden, it will mean the Warden will be different. I'm quite positive about it, a Primal Defender would surely be a character I'd love to play and roleplay.
Multiclassing it to completely different and unexpected class of course, that's my signature... Bard maybe.
So it will either use Dex for something crucial, have heavy armor, or have some other stat added to AC.
Actually it will probably be a primal defender that uses the STR and CON scores.