I'd like to see something like Ancestor or Science/Alchemy. Those would be fun.
Ancestor is folded into Primal and Divine for the most part, and Alchemy already exists, as a form of item creation.
Science would be cool, but unfortunately there are enough die hard "no modern stuff in my fantasy!" people around to make it unlikely.
So really, other than Shadow and Elemental, I don't really know what else can be made.
As for your ideas, primal already covers drawing power from your ancestors. Alchemy is an item sub-system, and whatever little technology based classes we get will probably be Arcane(like the artificer).
-=Edit: Dang it Ninjad.=-
The only concept I could see as a viable power source outside of those mentioned is the science/technology source, since there's a number of potential concepts it could cover (mad scientist/tinker, gunslinger, medic, and so forth). Of course, some might argue that such a source stretches the concept of the traditional heroic fantasy past its limit, or that such classes might work better as new Martial concepts.
The tinker/engineer could also arguably have its niche filled with new Artificer builds. It depends on how the next Arcane Power expands on them.
The tinker/engineer could also arguably have its niche filled with new Artificer builds. It depends on how the next Arcane Power expands on them.
Yeah, unfortunately so far WotC seems to be favoring the enchantment side over the tinkering side of the Artificer, since two of the three builds are focused on weapon, armor, and glyph enchantments, and most of the feat support is geared that way.
Also, the runepriest shows a reasonable proof of concept for a Runic power source and how sad it is to see that they chose divine. The runepriest doesn't use a holy symbol nor channel divinity which are iconic abilities of all divine classes. personally i feel this shows sufficiently that it could follow a path of Runic power source rather than divine. (Runic in fact could pull from the primordials instead of the deities) so, it was sad to see such a good proff of concept lost by throwing it into an existing power source where other rune-like classes will likely not be created.
so, I won't probably see it, but both Ki and Runic could have been adequate and appropriate power sources and more classes could have been drawn from those power sources.
this would have easily given room for a PHB4 with further Runic classes, Ki Classes and a Psionic striker that uses augmentation and power points as the other psionic classes do--thus making augmentation an iconic element of psionic power which all psionic classes access. Rune State would have been an iconic Runic class element and Full Discipline would have been an iconic Ki element alongside using a ki focus.
I'm not so eager for Elemental as I previously was because so much of the elemental grounds have been walked all over by arcane, and primal has stepped on that ground a little bit as well. There is less space for making Elemental that truly has its own space. That doesn't mean it couldn't exist, but I'm not so certain that it would give a lot of new ground to cover for classes to differentiate from other power sources. (though, with how many elemental attacks both sorcerers and swordmages have, both would have made reasonable classes for Elemental. then take away the elemental attacks from wizard and place the wizard more solidly as illusion, summon, psychic, force users...)
Shadow surely deserves some space (and if assassin had been a Ki ninja then shadow dancer would have been open). I don't wish for a necromancer or even a whole power source that is dedicated to necromancy. It would be nice if the shadow power source were used as a sort of springboard to a massive past of the Shadowfell not truly being the home of the dead and undead, but having been invaded by the dead and undead. thus the shadow source could and would still be a dark and ominous thing, but doesn't have to be tied to death and undeath, but could be tied to darkness, trickery, savagery, adreniline junkies, and jello-shots.
I'm actually quite disappointed to see the monk among the psionics when it shows such a fine implementation of what could have been a Ki power source. too bad that the won't likely repair that error and make other classes that relate to the Ki power source. (assassin could have become ninja under Ki; samurai could make a fine defender under Ki; clearly sohei and wu-jen have their adherents and might have enjoyed Ki also)
*sigh* And this sentence here pretty much sums up half the reason why Ki died. Thank you for reminding me about that.
I'm not so eager for Elemental as I previously was because so much of the elemental grounds have been walked all over by arcane, and primal has stepped on that ground a little bit as well. There is less space for making Elemental that truly has its own space. That doesn't mean it couldn't exist, but I'm not so certain that it would give a lot of new ground to cover for classes to differentiate from other power sources. (though, with how many elemental attacks both sorcerers and swordmages have, both would have made reasonable classes for Elemental. then take away the elemental attacks from wizard and place the wizard more solidly as illusion, summon, psychic, force users...)
I continue to believe that Arcane is the anti-thesis of the elemental power source. I also still have no idea of how the Primal power source took anything from it, but that is hardly relevant. Arcane imo is about distillation and expansion. The arcane classes take a small portion of the elemental chaos and seperate the element from the nature of the elemental chaos and then expand the element. To an extent even the chaos sorcerer does this(although I view them as taking the chaos from the elemental chaos and then exagerating it). The elemental classes should be about drawing on the elemental chaos itself resulting in attacks that are constantly changing in nature. It should also emphasize dual element attacks to a greater degree than arcane. At least that is how I see it. *shrugs*
[snip]I continue to believe that Arcane is the anti-thesis of the elemental power source. I also still have no idea of how the Primal power source took anything from it, but that is hardly relevant. Arcane imo is about distillation and expansion. The arcane classes take a small portion of the elemental chaos and seperate the element from the nature of the elemental chaos and then expand the element. To an extent even the chaos sorcerer does this(although I view them as taking the chaos from the elemental chaos and then exagerating it). The elemental classes should be about drawing on the elemental chaos itself resulting in attacks that are constantly changing in nature. It should also emphasize dual element attacks to a greater degree than arcane. At least that is how I see it. *shrugs*
well, primal certainly didn't take much and they've got great fluff to support it. One such example is the Seeker's at-will Elemental Spirits power in which the PC can choose one of four damage types before attacking. but since the Primal Power did such a good job of incorporating the various primal spirits of the natural world and showing that while Melora may be a goddess of storms and sea, the primal spirits of storms and sea are also present and primal characters can draw upon them for power. so, certainly didn't walk much on the realm of elemental.
however, you make a much better point of arcane vs elemental by describing arcane as a distillery of magical energies. i hadn't really thought of it that way before. it does give plenty more room to consider that a wizard may cast ray of frost, and a sorcerer may cast frostbind but an elemental may simply cast elemental cold in ways that outstrip the arcane methods. the idea of dual element attacks is another way that they would be distinguished from arcane, however, that creates quite a bit of power to balance.
for example, a storm sorc could cast thunder spells or lightning spells separately. if they are against a creature that resists lightning such as a blue dragon, they can shift to using the thunder more because the dragon will soak up lightning damage without as much concern.
if an elemental class could cast both fire and cold in the same attack, they do not have to consider shifting tactics against creatures that are resistant to fire, nor to creatures that are resistant to cold; one attack would still hit just as hard.
there are already a few arcane spells that serve up two energy types (first to mind is a fire and lightning combo in an encounter power), but those are more rare among the arcane. so an elementalist being able to combine more often would create a distinction among those classes.
and it is possible that the elemental would look very similar to arcane in many ways. I can't say that would be terrible. one aspect that could be offered is choosing an energy type at the creation of a character similar to Genasi which remains the primary damage type of that character. of course feats to gain additional damage types would be in order. powers could be written without a set damage type and rely on the chosen damage type for the keyword.
I have a proposal for a new Power Source. It is used a lot by Monsters especially bosses. The Power Source Ascendancy or Influence. Which covers the Honor and Respect of a Knight or the tremendous Resources of an arrogant Noble or the Fear that is inspired by a ruthless Pirate or the followers of a Lord or Demagogue.
This is also a concept that could used for a modern Universe.
It'd be very House Ruley, though, as to whether they'd be too advanced for settings... or they'd have to have a steam punkish, early era kind of feel. A Medic for Leader could work without being too out there, herbs, solves, gauze, and stimulants aren't too far out of the reaches of medieval times. But from there it gets muddy... For Controllers you could throw out alchemists or some other, thrown area of effect potion person adept at poisoning and special tool usage.
The separation of the power source is the training needed to be a class of this type, but is that enough?
Martial's separation is also the amount of training needed to be that class, but that's a training of the body. I don't know, any thoughts?
What we really need is a new build for Wizards or Artificers that plays up the tinkerer aspects. Spellbook is a great way to re-imagine brewing potions or alchemal devices, so a "bomb throwing" wizard would be completly logical.
As far as technology for weapons goes, I think creating some new classes of weapons, or creating a subset of enchantments for particular weapons, would go a long way to 'fixing' that problem. A flash-powder gun or steam-powered harpoon is still basically a crossbow. It just has dials and such, instead of a bowstring.
Elemental and Shadow, on the other hand, interest me greatly.
I've been eager to see how Elemental would be handled for some time now. Shadow still has lots of room left to expand, so I'm not too worried about that.
I suspect the idea of "dual elements" for Elemental classes is an interesting direction. Each power or "build" for the class could focus on pairs of damage types. Fire/Cold, Lightning/Thunder, Fire/Lightning, Cold/Thunder, Acid/Fire, etc.
Another idea is to put less emphasis on the items and gear Elemental classes use. Wizards are famous for their staves/wands/orbs/tomes, and Swordmages have a glowing sword. Artificers make/enchant weapons. All martial classes have signature weapons.
Sorcerers and Warlocks are a step in the right direction.
I would propose making all Elemental classes Implement based. Implements being containers of dirt/coal, or carvings of marble or stone. Similar to Primal Totems, actually.
The melee class could form a weapon of pure magic, and change the properites of their attacks based on the weapon they manifest. Still an implement class though.
I also think some of these classes could use Constitution as a primary ability. Battlemind and Warlocks are the only CON-primary classes I can think of, but STR, DEX, and WIS get used a lot. CHA is used by leaders and Sorcerers, but I think it's underutalized as well. Besides, using CHA would associate Sorcerers more closely with Elemental classes, which I think is perfect.
To me, Sorcers straddle the line between Elemenal and Arcane classes (which is fine, it's just their fluff).
I like the idea of science/tech being a power source, but I really do not seeing it fit into a standard fantasy game, even Eberron. I would very much look forward to a power source such as that in another setting like Steampunk, modern, future, past etc.
Another idea is to put less emphasis on the items and gear Elemental classes use. Wizards are famous for their staves/wands/orbs/tomes, and Swordmages have a glowing sword. Artificers make/enchant weapons. All martial classes have signature weapons.
Sorcerers and Warlocks are a step in the right direction.
I would propose making all Elemental classes Implement based. Implements being containers of dirt/coal, or carvings of marble or stone. Similar to Primal Totems, actually.
The melee class could form a weapon of pure magic, and change the properites of their attacks based on the weapon they manifest. Still an implement class though.
I agree with this idea. Although I would think Ki Focus would be the appropriate implement, at least for the melee class you allude to.
Incidently I just remembered one of my ideas on a "unifying mechanic" for elemental classes. Have it so that their powers all have effects that modify future attack, well maybe not at wills but encounters and dailies. So you use an attack which deals fire damage and has a rider effect so that your next attack power deals five fire damage to all enemies adjacent to a target. Depending on the order you used your powers it would result in them playing very differently, resulting the class (hopefully) feeling like its fighting style is constantly in flux without it being completely random.
Gives off a sort of "Chain of Elements" vibe. Perhaps the dailies say your next attack gains the keyword/damage type too or something?
Punch badguy with Flaming Fist, and your fists are still on fire next round when you blast them with Acid Wave. It would help getting around resistance types.
It would certianly lend itself to the "elemental classes use dual-type powers" feel!
I did see someone try Temporal power once, which interested me as being more autonomous than most - it's not expressly difficult to reason that time is not an elemental force, particularly if you're the sort that considers it a form of dimension.
I agree with this idea. Although I would think Ki Focus would be the appropriate implement, at least for the melee class you allude to.
Incidently I just remembered one of my ideas on a "unifying mechanic" for elemental classes. Have it so that their powers all have effects that modify future attack, well maybe not at wills but encounters and dailies. So you use an attack which deals fire damage and has a rider effect so that your next attack power deals five fire damage to all enemies adjacent to a target. Depending on the order you used your powers it would result in them playing very differently, resulting the class (hopefully) feeling like its fighting style is constantly in flux without it being completely random.
VERY nice idea.
On a side note I had an idea for the mechanic of the Elemental Striker. Basically when they inflict a damage type (say fire) the enemy would gain vulnerability to that damage type (possibliy equal to their Attack stat modifier) until the end of the next turn. So not only would it help the striker herself but also her allies and if she keeps pounding the foe using the same damage she reliably gets her bonus damage and might let her allies pile on even more!
While I see the potential for an elemental power source fluffwise, mechanics-wise, unless they come up with something mechanically innovative for it, like power points with psionics, it will just feel like someone took my wizard and took away all his cantrips and illusion spells...and what, no Sleep?
Wizards would have to do something REALLY different with the elemental power source for it to feel like something other than arcane rehashed. I'm not saying it's not possible...just that it's going to be difficult.
...what would an Elemental power source be, exactly? I'm just talking fluff. Personally, I can't conceive any anything that couldn't be classified as Primal. Hell, the words are perfectly synonymous. Both mean "pertaining to the original, the foundation, or the natural." If we're talking about using the power of the elementals, like lighting or wind or fire or rain, isn't that Primal?
Looking at it through the lens of DnD mythology (and I admittedly know very little about such things), I suppose 'Elemental' is usually used in reference to the Primordials, ancient beings of chaos who created the materials that the Gods ordered into the universe as we know it. So, would Elemental classes be channeling the power of the Primordials, whereas Primal are more about animal spirits and ancestors? But that defines primordial or elemental powers as originating before nature, which means Primal powers aren't actually prime.
I really can't wrap my head around it. I mean, if WotC says Elemental will be a power source distinct from Primal, than its going to be a power source distinct from Primal, and there'll be no sense in quibbling about dictionary definitions. I'd shrug and sit down and have fun playing the same as anyone. It doesn't really bother me so as baffle. But it is baffling,
Popular theories range from a Full Metal Alchemist style Transmutation specialist to a caster defender who uses point blank bursts and blasts, all the way to a revival of the Wu Jen or the flavorful djinn-binder Sha'ir. There's plenty of theories being knocked about, some of them quite awesome....but we just don't know.
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...what would an Elemental power source be, exactly? I'm just talking fluff. Personally, I can't conceive any anything that couldn't be classified as Primal. Hell, the words are perfectly synonymous. Both mean "pertaining to the original, the foundation, or the natural." If we're talking about using the power of the elementals, like lighting or wind or fire or rain, isn't that Primal?
Looking at it through the lens of DnD mythology (and I admittedly know very little about such things), I suppose 'Elemental' is usually used in reference to the Primordials, ancient beings of chaos who created the materials that the Gods ordered into the universe as we know it. So, would Elemental classes be channeling the power of the Primordials, whereas Primal are more about animal spirits and ancestors? But that defines primordial or elemental powers as originating before nature, which means Primal powers aren't actually prime.
I really can't wrap my head around it. I mean, if WotC says Elemental will be a power source distinct from Primal, than its going to be a power source distinct from Primal, and there'll be no sense in quibbling about dictionary definitions. I'd shrug and sit down and have fun playing the same as anyone. It doesn't really bother me so as baffle. But it is baffling,
Wrong 'Primal'. 'Primal' as in 'primal instinct' and 'primitive', not as in 'prime' and 'first'. Primal Spirits are essentially the Soul of the World. Its an animist concept, very Shinto-like in fact.
Primordials are from the Elemental Chaos. And when dealing with the Elemental Chaos its not quite the same as dealing with 'the elements' as in the 'Endure Element' ritual where you can resist a storm or heavy rain or wind... those are simply manifestation. The 'element' in Elemental Chaos is closer in meaning to the periodic table. They are raw building blocks... like the vast bucket of LEGO of the universe just waiting to be put together into mighty weapons. The Elemental Chaos is a place where mountains fly around like clouds and rivers flow without beds and rust falls like snow from the sky...
Its nothing like the orderly concept of air-fire-water-earth.
Primordials are more or less inspired by the primordial deities of Greek myths that are essentially leftovers from a previous religion that must have existed in the region. The the khaos is born Gaia, the mother earth, and from her are born the original deities: Ouranos the sky, Pontos the waters, Tartarus the underworld and in certain version Eros the lust. Those deities were more concept than gods really. Even the Titans that followed were fairly symbolic, though of a higher level.
So Primal and Elemental got really nothing to do with one another.
...what would an Elemental power source be, exactly? I'm just talking fluff. Personally, I can't conceive any anything that couldn't be classified as Primal. Hell, the words are perfectly synonymous. Both mean "pertaining to the original, the foundation, or the natural." If we're talking about using the power of the elementals, like lighting or wind or fire or rain, isn't that Primal?
Looking at it through the lens of DnD mythology (and I admittedly know very little about such things), I suppose 'Elemental' is usually used in reference to the Primordials, ancient beings of chaos who created the materials that the Gods ordered into the universe as we know it. So, would Elemental classes be channeling the power of the Primordials, whereas Primal are more about animal spirits and ancestors? But that defines primordial or elemental powers as originating before nature, which means Primal powers aren't actually prime.
I really can't wrap my head around it. I mean, if WotC says Elemental will be a power source distinct from Primal, than its going to be a power source distinct from Primal, and there'll be no sense in quibbling about dictionary definitions. I'd shrug and sit down and have fun playing the same as anyone. It doesn't really bother me so as baffle. But it is baffling,
Wrong 'Primal'. 'Primal' as in 'primal instinct' and 'primitive', not as in 'prime' and 'first'. Primal Spirits are essentially the Soul of the World. Its an animist concept, very Shinto-like in fact.
Primordials are from the Elemental Chaos. And when dealing with the Elemental Chaos its not quite the same as dealing with 'the elements' as in the 'Endure Element' ritual where you can resist a storm or heavy rain or wind... those are simply manifestation. The 'element' in Elemental Chaos is closer in meaning to the periodic table. They are raw building blocks... like the vast bucket of LEGO of the universe just waiting to be put together into mighty weapons. The Elemental Chaos is a place where mountains fly around like clouds and rivers flow without beds and rust falls like snow from the sky...
Its nothing like the orderly concept of air-fire-water-earth.
Primordials are more or less inspired by the primordial deities of Greek myths that are essentially leftovers from a previous religion that must have existed in the region. The the khaos is born Gaia, the mother earth, and from her are born the original deities: Ouranos the sky, Pontos the waters, Tartarus the underworld and in certain version Eros the lust. Those deities were more concept than gods really. Even the Titans that followed were fairly symbolic, though of a higher level.
So Primal and Elemental got really nothing to do with one another.
"Primal instinct" means "basic instinct", or in other words the prime or first instinct. You could term it an "elemental instinct" without losing meaning. Primitive means unrefined, or in other words the original before refinement.
Animism is about everything in the world possessing a core essence which is superlative to the physical reality; like you say, primal spirits are the Soul of the World. The concept of "soul" is that there's an elemental or primary existence, which is immaterial and separate from the physical existence.
I suppose I can make sense of it if I think of it like this: Primal deals with the fundamental forces of immaterial existence, the soul of the world. Elemental deals with the fundamental forces of material existence, the actual world. It's an arbitrary distinction, but it works.
Science would be cool, but unfortunately there are enough die hard "no modern stuff in my fantasy!" people around to make it unlikely.
Steampunk anyone?
Its sciency enough while still allowing plenty of magic.
Then again, how many powers/classes/etc. can you make with it?
honestly after reading through PHB3 i feel that monk gives a clear proof of concept that Ki power source could have served up several classes quite admirably to fulfill the roles. I'm actually quite disappointed to see the monk among the psionics when it shows such a fine implementation of what could have been a Ki power source. too bad that the won't likely repair that error and make other classes that relate to the Ki power source. (assassin could have become ninja under Ki; samurai could make a fine defender under Ki; clearly sohei and wu-jen have their adherents and might have enjoyed Ki also)
Or in other words: Asia power source.
Oh, and Wu-Jen would be either arcane or elemental, not ki.
[snip]honestly after reading through PHB3 i feel that monk gives a clear proof of concept that Ki power source could have served up several classes quite admirably to fulfill the roles. I'm actually quite disappointed to see the monk among the psionics when it shows such a fine implementation of what could have been a Ki power source. too bad that the won't likely repair that error and make other classes that relate to the Ki power source. (assassin could have become ninja under Ki; samurai could make a fine defender under Ki; clearly sohei and wu-jen have their adherents and might have enjoyed Ki also)
Or in other words: Asia power source.
Oh, and Wu-Jen would be either arcane or elemental, not ki.
well, i wasn't trying to say Asia power source, but that could be pretty neat for next power source. I know a great power already,
Millions of short people;
daily:zone, summoning;
Attack: CHA vs Fort;
Hit: the swarm of short asian people slide the target a number of squares equal to your WIS modifier and knock the target prone in that square; they then trample for 2d10 + CHA damage.;
Effect: you summon a swarm of short asian people that occupy a number of squares equal to twice your CHA modifier that must be within 10 squares of you;
Sustain Minor: the zone persists and the swarm of short asian people continue to trample any creature that enters the zone causing 1d6 + CHA damage.
oh, that's going to ge tme in trouble.
For the naysayers of a Science source - why not make a "setting" book: d20 Modern: 4e. While in 3.5, d20 Modern and standard D&D were separate systems (very similar but incompatible because of a few issues), I say 4e d20 Modern should be 100% compatible with standard D&D. Thus there would be no need for Urban Arcana as a book. You just use stuff outside of d20 Modern. And hence d20 Modern would need enough classes to allow a setting to only use the Science power source (and Martial, I guess).
I agree. I would love to see a science source in a fully 4e compatible d20 Modern (or future)
For the naysayers of a Science source - why not make a "setting" book: d20 Modern: 4e. While in 3.5, d20 Modern and standard D&D were separate systems (very similar but incompatible because of a few issues), I say 4e d20 Modern should be 100% compatible with standard D&D. Thus there would be no need for Urban Arcana as a book. You just use stuff outside of d20 Modern. And hence d20 Modern would need enough classes to allow a setting to only use the Science power source (and Martial, I guess).
I think the big problem(at least for me) with doing a science power source isn't so much the power source but more of the powers. Most interpretations of the "science power source" have had powers basically based on building gadgets that the character uses in combat. However that ends up either breaking down either suspension of belief(why can't the science guy lend his raygun to the wizard for a battle or two) or of balance(the science guy does lend his raygun to the wizard increasing the wizard's power). The artificer sort of gets around this with an implied requirement of a magical trigger for his devices allowing for him to be the only person to use them by neccesity. When you remove the magic though, that explanation breaks down, at least for me.
Ritual Caster (reflavored)
Enchant Item Ritual (reflavored)
Make magic items, reflavored as technological devices.
Make sure you're trained in Thievery.
Be an artificer (reflavored)
I'm really not sure what else a technology-based character would need.
There isn't much support for Acid or Poison powers. I suspect those two 'elements' could inspire a slew of Elemental powers.
Acid would debuff enemies, make them grant CA, create zones of "OMG PAIN" and the like.
Poison could focus on dazing/stuning/weakining enemies as well as ongoing damage.
There probably isn't enough there to make an entire class, but you could probably manage to squeeze in a thematic power at each level.
As a random thought, there could be an Acid at-will power that deals some damage and ongoing damage. Cleave can do that with a feat and under fairly common conditions, so I suspect making it a [D] + [X ongoing] power (rather than a [D]+Stat + [X ongoing]) would be about right.
[edit:] Actually, a Striker with a focus on dealing Ongoing Damage would be pretty cool. Possibly hard to ballance, and increadibly annoying, but the flavor is there.
[snip]honestly after reading through PHB3 i feel that monk gives a clear proof of concept that Ki power source could have served up several classes quite admirably to fulfill the roles. I'm actually quite disappointed to see the monk among the psionics when it shows such a fine implementation of what could have been a Ki power source. too bad that the won't likely repair that error and make other classes that relate to the Ki power source. (assassin could have become ninja under Ki; samurai could make a fine defender under Ki; clearly sohei and wu-jen have their adherents and might have enjoyed Ki also)
Or in other words: Asia power source.
Oh, and Wu-Jen would be either arcane or elemental, not ki.
well, i wasn't trying to say Asia power source, but that could be pretty neat for next power source. I know a great power already,
Millions of short people;
daily:zone, summoning;
Attack: CHA vs Fort;
Hit: the swarm of short asian people slide the target a number of squares equal to your WIS modifier and knock the target prone in that square; they then trample for 2d10 + CHA damage.;
Effect: you summon a swarm of short asian people that occupy a number of squares equal to twice your CHA modifier that must be within 10 squares of you;
Sustain Minor: the zone persists and the swarm of short asian people continue to trample any creature that enters the zone causing 1d6 + CHA damage.
oh, that's going to ge tme in trouble.
The Ki power source was scrapped for many reasons, the biggest one being that it's just not that different from Psionic: drawing supernatural power from the energy found inside you. Once that similarity was acknowledged, the fact that the Ki power source was really just the Asian power source became painfully obvious.
Ninja is just an asian version of the Assassin, there's little difference thematically other than Assassin is just what you call guys who kill stealthily and aren't Japanese (shut up thax).
Samurai isn't much different from Fighter thematically, it's a guy who wears heavy armor and has extensive training with a particular style of weapon- this is built in to the mechanics of the Fighter class and the flavor is very heavy in certain builds, especially the Kensei paragon path.
And Wu Gen and Sohei... only people who have played 3.5 extensively have even the faintest clue what those are.
[snip]honestly after reading through PHB3 i feel that monk gives a clear proof of concept that Ki power source could have served up several classes quite admirably to fulfill the roles. I'm actually quite disappointed to see the monk among the psionics when it shows such a fine implementation of what could have been a Ki power source. too bad that the won't likely repair that error and make other classes that relate to the Ki power source. (assassin could have become ninja under Ki; samurai could make a fine defender under Ki; clearly sohei and wu-jen have their adherents and might have enjoyed Ki also)
Or in other words: Asia power source.
Oh, and Wu-Jen would be either arcane or elemental, not ki.
well, i wasn't trying to say Asia power source, but that could be pretty neat for next power source. I know a great power already,
Millions of short people;
daily:zone, summoning;
Attack: CHA vs Fort;
Hit: the swarm of short asian people slide the target a number of squares equal to your WIS modifier and knock the target prone in that square; they then trample for 2d10 + CHA damage.;
Effect: you summon a swarm of short asian people that occupy a number of squares equal to twice your CHA modifier that must be within 10 squares of you;
Sustain Minor: the zone persists and the swarm of short asian people continue to trample any creature that enters the zone causing 1d6 + CHA damage.
oh, that's going to ge tme in trouble.
The Ki power source was scrapped for many reasons, the biggest one being that it's just not that different from Psionic: drawing supernatural power from the energy found inside you. Once that similarity was acknowledged, the fact that the Ki power source was really just the Asian power source became painfully obvious.
Ninja is just an asian version of the Assassin, there's little difference thematically other than Assassin is just what you call guys who kill stealthily and aren't Japanese (shut up thax).
Samurai isn't much different from Fighter thematically, it's a guy who wears heavy armor and has extensive training with a particular style of weapon- this is built in to the mechanics of the Fighter class and the flavor is very heavy in certain builds, especially the Kensei paragon path.
And Wu Gen and Sohei... only people who have played 3.5 extensively have even the faintest clue what those are.
A ninja could be made with a rogue or an assassin, depending on what sort of flavor you want your ninja to have.
The heavily-armored samurai could indeed be made with a Fighter, Ranger, or Warlord, depending on what aspects of the samurai you want to focus on.
The light-armored samurai duelist (or swordsage) would probably work by taking a Monk and using a sword instead of your fists. Apparently, weapon-using monks will get some more attention in Psionic Power, so that conceptual space should be filled.
Wu Jen and Shungenja might find themselves being incorporated into the Elemental source. Maybe there will be a "Geomancer" class focused on manipulating the elements.
I don't see a Tech source working. It's either too advanced logically (unless they went an ancient civilization Archaeologist route) to have happened yet, too close to something you could do with Arcane or Martial, or just not unique enough. It's a nice concept, and I'm not necessarily against it due to it clashing so strongly with fantasy, but it just doesn't work well with what they've established. I'm sure Artificier will get to the Tinkerer aspect soon enough.
You have some classes that you honestly don't know where to put them in so the designers just stick them somewhere,(here's looking at you Monk), and you have some classes that step on the toes of other classes such as the Darklock who is a perfect candidate for the Shadow power source. As of right now there is no mechanical affiliation with regards to Power Source such as resistance to this Power Source or that one.
Wizards brought out this philosophy about leaving it up to the players and DM to fill in the blanks, well why are they forcing Power Sources when they are just a pure role playing mechanic?
You have some classes that you honestly don't know where to put them in so the designers just stick them somewhere,(here's looking at you Monk), and you have some classes that step on the toes of other classes such as the Darklock who is a perfect candidate for the Shadow power source.
Each supernatural power source is associated with one of the planes of DnD cosmology
Divine= Astral Sea
Primal= Prime Material Plane
Elemental= Elemental Chaos
Psionic= Created in response to encroaching Far Realm powers
Arcane= Strongly associated with the Feywild, although whether or not it actually spring from there is debatable
Shadow power comes from the Shadowfell.
The Darklock learns its powers from a powerful practitioner of arcane magic, usually one who lives in the Underdark. Hence the dark.
You have some classes that you honestly don't know where to put them in so the designers just stick them somewhere,(here's looking at you Monk), and you have some classes that step on the toes of other classes such as the Darklock who is a perfect candidate for the Shadow power source.
Each supernatural power source is associated with one of the planes of DnD cosmology
Divine= Astral Sea
Primal= Prime Material Plane
Elemental= Elemental Chaos
Psionic= Created in response to encroaching Far Realm powers
Arcane= Strongly associated with the Feywild, although whether or not it actually spring from there is debatable
Shadow power comes from the Shadowfell.
The Darklock learns its powers from a powerful practitioner of arcane magic, usually one who lives in the Underdark. Hence the dark.
Those connections are tenuous at best. They may happen in those locations, but corellation ≠ causation.
There's room for new power sources, even if there aren't new planes to fit them.
Those connections are tenuous at best. They may happen in those locations, but corellation ≠ causation.
There's room for new power sources, even if there aren't new planes to fit them.
Well except for the Shadow one. The whole fluff of the power source is you trade part of your soul to the Shadowfell in exchange for greater control over the Shadowfell's power....kind of hard to make the argument that it isn't intimately tied to the plane. :p Although personally I would argue that divine, primal, and maybe elemental have a stronger connection than "tenuous", but I admit those are available for debate.
But I wasn't saying that 'no more planes, no more power sources'. I was just pointing out the trend in power source origins and showing why the origins of the power source meant the Darklock had nothing to do with the Shadow source.
As a side-note, I think a time based power source could be very viable, as well as dual-source classes.
As a side-note, I think a time based power source could be very viable, as well as dual-source classes.
I agree. Personally, I'd say swordmage should have been handled as both arcane and martial.
Instead, we get dual-source by MCing, Hybriding, and various PPaths such as Arcane Trickster or Umbriri.
They said they tried dual-source classes. Assassin was going to be one (Martial and Arcane, much as the PrC was in previous editions). It didn't work. It came off without a unified theme, since the class didn't fit into a family of classes with a story behind them.
Instead, we get dual-source by MCing, Hybriding, and various PPaths such as Arcane Trickster or Umbriri.
"They said they tried dual-source classes."
...was it in a podcast?
interesting, but I understand if didn't worked
They said they tried dual-source classes. Assassin was going to be one (Martial and Arcane, much as the PrC was in previous editions). It didn't work. It came off without a unified theme, since the class didn't fit into a family of classes with a story behind them.
Instead, we get dual-source by MCing, Hybriding, and various PPaths such as Arcane Trickster or Umbriri.
"They said they tried dual-source classes."
...was it in a podcast?
interesting, but I understand if didn't worked
Yeah, it was in a Podcast about when Assassin was released. They were talking about the Design & Development of the Assassin Class – though this time on the air rather than on the page.
TONS of immediate actions for their powers and the ability to make multiple immediate actions per turn.
A class feature that allows the ability to change their initiative once or several times during combat with new initiative checks.
I would like to see elemental dropped as it seems really thin on what they can do with it, most ideas can fit into either primal or arcane without too much trouble. I think they should focus on what they have after shadow and put out new builds and maybe new classes for the other power sources unless a blow your socks off kind of idea comes down the pipeline.
You ALWAYS say that :p
If they published the Battlemind I'm sure they can come up with something BETTER for Elemental :p
TONS of immediate actions for their powers and the ability to make multiple immediate actions per turn.
It would be more elegant to simply make such powers triggered free actions.
To say that Elemental is already covered by Arcane and Primal is extremely shallow and superficial. It implies that all Elemental has going for it is Energy damage attacks – Fire, Cold, Acid, Poison, Lighting, Thunder, Psychic, Radiant, Necrotic, Force. Elements are different from Energies, even if they are related. A power's energy type has nothing to do with it's Power Source (though Martial Character should not be having them due to not having any 'supernatural' effects).
I could see Elemental draw upon Shapers and Incarnum, for example. But we have no idea what WotC has in-store for us with it. And it's certainly not going to be CHAOS SORCERER AS POWER SOURCE!!!!!!!1111!!!11!!!1!!!!!!1111111
Despite drawing on the Chaos, Wild Soul Sorcerers are quite diffinitively Arcane in the way they cast and their mindset.
Warlords can heal without magic or medical training, so why can't the monk be a martial character that trained his mind and body to do amazing things. A person can spit fire with a little training and some fuel so there are your fireballs, the martial source is broader than you give it credit for.
Warlords can heal without magic or medical training, so why can't the monk be a martial character that trained his mind and body to do amazing things. A person can spit fire with a little training and some fuel so there are your fireballs, the martial source is broader than you give it credit for.
Or tighter than you seem to think. Warlords "heal" by inspiration of allies to keep fighting. HP ≠ damage necessarily, it more often = Resolve.
A person spitting fire with fuel and training sounds like someone who's taken the Alchemist Feat. That's not a martial skill.
Incarnum could be interesting as the "Soulblade" power source, but thematically Psionics seems to have eaten soul magic so I doubt we'll see it.
The thing about Power Sources is that each seems to denote how it's member classes learn thier abilities.
Martial characters train thier bodies, Psionic characters train thier minds, Arcane characters study the secret laws of reality, Divine characters get thier powers implanted by dieties.
This is why dual source classes don't really work.
This is also why science and chronomancy don't really gel as sources. Science is arcane in different underwear (and also redundant in fantasy settings. Why go to the effort of creating a plasma cannon when you can learn to fling plasma from your hands?) and chronomancy is more of a character theme, or set of builds than a power source.
The Dark pact is Arcane because the entities in the darkness teach you your powers instead of granting them directly.
Martial characters cannot generate ki fire balls. ... Martial Character should not be having them due to not having any 'supernatural' effects
Umm... would you like to explain where stormwarden rangers get the lightning from? Or the teleporting?
I agree that monks fit better with psionic than with martial, given the existence of the psionic power source, but the "martial characters can't produce supernatural effects" argument is bunk. The monk could have been done as a martial class with the more obviously supernatural stuff represented by paragon paths and feats. If there were no psionic power source, that's almost certainly how the monk would have been done And pretty much nobody would have batted an eyelid, just as pretty much nobody bats an eyelid when a stormwarden ranger electrocutes enemies with his swords and bamfs around like Nightcrawler whenever he spends an action point.
Martial characters cannot generate ki fire balls. ... Martial Character should not be having them due to not having any 'supernatural' effects
Umm... would you like to explain where stormwarden rangers get the lightning from? Or the teleporting?
The Stormwarden is so fast that his weapons produce static electricity from friction with the surrounding moisture and when they say 'teleport' they just mean he's REALLY REALLY REALLY fast for a split second.
:D
Off course Paragon Path are another thing entirely and can often spill into a different power source.
Monks could've stayed Ki.
Stormwarden's could've had "primal" in their power descriptions and no-one would've complained, just look at the Horrizon Walker and its Arcane powers.
But in any case, Elemental classes haven't been shown to anyone and we don't know much about them.
How about giving them a chance to exist before you kick them in the nuts?