But after that what happens. Do you think as I fear that will be the end of fourth edition and the herald of fifth edition. Or will we see a host of brand new power sources that will allow fourth edition to continue for many years.
At the beginging of fourth it seemed they had a clear plan laid out but as the months went by this became less and less clear to me. I have no idea what's in store of fourth edition at this moment and it's a little scary in my opinion.
Am I just paranoid or did I miss something? Any thoughts post em thanks!
2008-2015 is 7 years...
best case...2018 5e...I can't belive it will go more then 10 years.
A future PHB might introduce a power source that hasn't been publicly revealed.
A future PHB might revisit a previous power source. (Nothing says that a PHB *must* introduce a new power source.)
A future PHB might be structured around some other theme than power sources.
A future PHB might even skip introducing classes to focus on another type of content.
Lots of splatbooks: Locations, Races etc.
Dungeon Delve 2 and 3
PHB, MM, DMG 3, 4 and maybe 5 - some new power sources, lots of new classes and paragon paths using old power sources, lots of extra options, feats, magical items etc.
MP etc per power source 2 and 3
Ad Vault 3, 4 and maybe 5
Lots of adventures, super-adbentures (including re-done classics) and campaign paths
Draconomicon 3, 4 and maybe 5
Demonomicon / Codex of Betrayal etc. 1, maybe 2 of each
Open Grave 2; similar books for elementals, goblinoids, drow, abberants, lycanthropes(?)
Plane Below, Plane Above, Underdark and other settings books (aquatic, desert etc.)
Campaign Settings 3 books + adventure: some new, some revisited oldies
Lots of Dungeon & Dragon Magazine articles + respective annuals (about 6 in total each)
Scales of War book (+ 1 other dungeon campaign arc)
PHB, DMG for Dummies 2nd printing + starter set 2nd version
Player's guide 1 & 2
Gametable (
) + other DDi stuffI'm probably wrong, but I reckon there's another half-decade of life in 4e yet. Maybe longer.
and Elemental dropped altogether. After all, Elemental is still by most estimates farther out now then Ki was when PHBI was released, so there's nothing to say they won't drop it altogether even if they don't plan to at the moment.
I don't see where you're getting this idea from. While the community seems uncertain what to do with Elemental, WotC assured us (in the same announcement that Ki was dead) that Elemental was still on track as a future power source.
That being said, what exactly would encompass an elemental power source? We already have Fire, Thunder, Lightning, Cold keywords. They are already part of many powers out there. Is there really a need for an elemental power source? Just saying.
I say that in the same way I wouldn't foresee a nature or spirit power source, as both are encompassed within the primal power source.
--
on another note, I would love to see materials that allows for better customisation of gameworlds. My PC need to spend their golds and want to buy an Inn or build their own fortress somewhere in the mountains. What about rules for creating a small village or a town on the spot? I'd love to restrict what my PC can buy by the rarity of the items they are looking for, some support for that or for some sort of dynamic economy would be nice.
Tons of things like that were created in previous editions of Dungeons and Dragons (rules for military skirmishes comes to mind, or the crafting skills). I think there's some good stuff out there that could be re-used, streamlined and published to help DM and PC alike make their world so much more vivid.
Focus on campaign is great, in a episode to episode kind of way, but sometimes it's also fun to leave the well traveled road and try the side trails.
To be honest, I don't follow up with everything that goes on the forums, but I do stop in a while for a glimpse.
That being said, what exactly would encompass an elemental power source? We already have Fire, Thunder, Lightning, Cold keywords. They are already part of many powers out there. Is there really a need for an elemental power source? Just saying.
I say that in the same way I wouldn't foresee a nature or spirit power source, as both are encompassed within the primal power source.
The elemental powersource would most likely be rooted in the Elemetal chaos, as the Divine power source is rooted in the Astral Sea.
As such, it is likely to be far more mutable than we have seen so far. Some have suggested a theme of transmutation, turning one thing into another, (as opposed to Primal's transformation) and such is likely to be included at least in part. Variable keywords may be common. Perhaps another wild-magic class- but one more under user's control.
This is the same reason why Psionic doesn't necessarily deal Psychic damage. It's a difference of power-origin vs Power-effect.
Then again, it would be silly for a Martial character to use energy keyword powers, since they deal primarily with weapons and the exploits they can do with their bodies and arms.
Again, a difference between the innate power stemming from the interior that Psionics can do, and Monks are a lot more "magical" than any Martial class.
What do I see in 4e future:
Lots of splatbooks: Locations, Races etc.
Dungeon Delve 2 and 3
PHB, MM, DMG 3, 4 and maybe 5 - some new power sources, lots of new classes and paragon paths using old power sources, lots of extra options, feats, magical items etc.
MP etc per power source 2 and 3
Ad Vault 3, 4 and maybe 5
Lots of adventures, super-adbentures (including re-done classics) and campaign paths
Draconomicon 3, 4 and maybe 5
Demonomicon / Codex of Betrayal etc. 1, maybe 2 of each
Open Grave 2; similar books for elementals, goblinoids, drow, abberants, lycanthropes(?)
Plane Below, Plane Above, Underdark and other settings books (aquatic, desert etc.)
Campaign Settings 3 books + adventure: some new, some revisited oldies
Lots of Dungeon & Dragon Magazine articles + respective annuals (about 6 in total each)
Scales of War book (+ 1 other dungeon campaign arc)
PHB, DMG for Dummies 2nd printing + starter set 2nd version
Player's guide 1 & 2
Gametable (
I'm probably wrong, but I reckon there's another half-decade of life in 4e yet. Maybe longer.
Yes, that definitely looks like five to seven more years of stuff. And I want most of that stuff.
While brainstorming ...
WotC could even donate the Greyhawk setting to the public domain. This might lure some of the gloryday grognards into 4e, especially those who begrudge the businesss copyright policies.
The Wizard.com forums could supply a forum, wiki, and gaming community for this public domain Greyhawk.
Plus, it seems an appropriate way to honor the memory of Gygax. The gift to public domain can be dedicated to him.
i will say to all of the former D&D players tha enjoyed 3.5 and lower that when this Edition falls through hopefully they will realize to go back to 3.5
WOW!!!! have you guys sat back and read these forums....you guys are crazy thinking that D&D should have 5 PH's and 5 DMG's and 20 MM's...you what that tells me is that there is no imagination and someone has a fat pocket of cash...
i will say to all of the former D&D players tha enjoyed 3.5 and lower that when this Edition falls through hopefully they will realize to go back to 3.5
What are you talking about?
3.5 also had 5 MMs, had enough classes to fill at least 5 PHBs, and had enough magic items, traps, diseases, poisons, artifacts, terrain features, templates, and so on to fill quite a few of DMGs. They were just scattered all over the place instead of being all nice and gathered up for convenience.
Yeah, because reinventing the wheel, over and over again, is such a productive use of time?Someone has built a house that you love. Definitely dont buy it? Because, you know, you can build your own house?
And we all know, previous editions were superior because they never had too many splatbooks?
This.
< Crimson: The [many options for classes, items, monsters, etc. in 3e] were just scattered all over the place instead of being all nice and gathered up for convenience. >
This.
Yeah I stopped buying books when I saw Gorillas in a sea based campaign setting. Swash buckling gurillas really? That was what they came up with for a book called storm wrack? Or more spells in complete warrior than fighter feats. FAIL.
WOW!!!! have you guys sat back and read these forums....you guys are crazy thinking that D&D should have 5 PH's and 5 DMG's and 20 MM's...you what that tells me is that there is no imagination and someone has a fat pocket of cash...
i will say to all of the former D&D players tha enjoyed 3.5 and lower that when this Edition falls through hopefully they will realize to go back to 3.5
Yeah, I'll have to echo Crimson here and say you have no idea what you're talking about.
Plus, it's not just that we think these things should happen, it's we know they will happen. As in, PHBs3+, DMGs3+, MMs3+ are all confirmed as things that will happen, unless WotC finds an even better way to do things.
< Crimson: The [many options for classes, items, monsters, etc. in 3e] were just scattered all over the place instead of being all nice and gathered up for convenience. >
This.
Yeah I stopped buying books when I saw Gorillas in a sea based campaign setting. Swash buckling gurillas really? That was what they came up with for a book called storm wrack? Or more spells in complete warrior than fighter feats. FAIL.
Then you stopped playing D&D during the AD&D years after Spelljammer came out? That is where the Hadozee made their first appearance, as crews on Spelljamming ships. (Actually, if you want to get really technical, the Hadozee made their first appearance as Yazirians in the Sci Fi game Star Frontiers, also by TSR.)
The Hadozee being included in Stormwrack was nothing more than fanservice to the two dozen or so Spelljammer fans still alive in the world. Their introduction in Stormwrack was in keeping with the nautical theme they had already established for the race. The Hadozee as a PC race are no more ridiculous than Kobolds, Bullywugs or Thri Kreen as a player race.
Where's the rolleyes when you need one? There are more than two dozen Spelljammer fans.
I understand that, I'm one of them myself.
I was attempting to inject a little humour via hyperbole. Sorry, I forgot to add the smiley.
Now, about the Gaming Table being required for the survival of 4e, that's not necessarily true. 4e heralded in a lot of things. It made the Gaming Table possible, but it wasn't made so that the Gaming Table could be made, it was made to make the game better and more fun. It removed a lot of problems that previous editions of the game had.
And if you're not a 4e player, what are you doing in the 4e forums other than to breed conflict?
WotC can license most of the setting titles, above, to third party publishers. Even 'donate' one of them to public domain .. as an experiment to see how the fanbase would collectively translate and evolve the setting into 4e if they had intellectual rights to develope it. Itd be sorta like a marketing survey to monitor popular ideas for other settings that WotC is woking on. That way, WotC can satisfy the D&D fanbase and not need to invest business expenses in developing them.
While brainstorming ...
WotC could even donate the Greyhawk setting to the public domain. This might lure some of the gloryday grognards into 4e, especially those who begrudge the businesss copyright policies.
The Wizard.com forums could supply a forum, wiki, and gaming community for this public domain Greyhawk.
Plus, it seems an appropriate way to honor the memory of Gygax. The gift to public domain can be dedicated to him.
Public Domain? Wow, now that's a interesting idea. I think it could work, as this would place the community in a central spot in creating new content for Greyhawk. Certainly worth considering.
< Crimson: The [many options for classes, items, monsters, etc. in 3e] were just scattered all over the place instead of being all nice and gathered up for convenience. >
This.
Yeah I stopped buying books when I saw Gorillas in a sea based campaign setting. Swash buckling gurillas really? That was what they came up with for a book called storm wrack? Or more spells in complete warrior than fighter feats. FAIL.
Wait, I heard it was Sea Orangutans?
4ed will die once 5ed is ready. The only question is whether 5ed will suck or not...
Of corse 5E will suck. All the forums will say so!
All that said, I'm currently enjoying 4e, maybe 5e will be better, maybe it wont be and i'll stick with 4e, only time will tell.
EDIT
All that said, I'm currently enjoying 4e, maybe 5e will be better, maybe it wont be and i'll stick with 4e, only time will tell.
Here! Here!
To parapharse you:
All that said, I'm currently enjoying 1e, maybe 5e will be better, maybe it wont be and maybe my group will switch to 5e, but probably not. (They never did before.)
As for the end of 4e. I hold no fear of 5e, since I'm ending my status as a D&D consumer with 4e. I have enough D&D editions and other rpg rule systems to last the rest of my life. I really have no desire to "upgrade" my D&D experience anymore. I'd rather spend my money on a new hobby, so I can rotate between D&D, 40k and all the others, instead of spending everything I make on D&D.
As for 4e making "too many books", thats laughable. They would really need to try hard to match the book count of 3x and no way in hell will our 4e book count even come close to that of 2e. 2e Forgotten realms alone is a massive collection, and thats just one setting.
At the rate 4e is putting out books, we could see a very long lifespan for the edition. As it is, as long as they produce new material for the next few years, I'll be content for the rest of my life with 4e and prior editions.
5e, to me, is like the nintendo wii. I'll never own one, I have no need or desire for it. My money is better spent on other interests, since I enjoy playing the playstation, rather than a nintendo.
I enjoy 4e and will continue to do so for a very long time. When I need a break, d20 modern, saga, warhammer, 40k, or any of the dozen other systems I enjoy will fill that need.
I'v got enough of wotc's products to last a lifetime, and they've got enough of my money, and will continue to get my money as long as they release 4e products. Plus, I'm damn near out of space for anything else. I'v got far too many books along with other things. I simply can't consider collecting any more editions of D&D without renting a storage space. I may have to begin selling books I no longer use. Moving is a nightmare I don't even like to think about. Moving 50+ boxes of books is a bigger pain in the ass than its worth. Too many hobbies, not enough time or space.
There will be threads where people will talk about how much better the '4e' days were before 5e ruined everything, and how they can't make their favourite character the same, and 5e avengers will come to counter their claims, mostly saying that this cycle is what happens every edition.
5e Avengers?! Hell no, they'll rename the Avenger class the Holy Swordguy. And that'll set the dedicated 4e oldtimers off. Back when DnD was real serious business!
Though i think the term "4e Avenger" came out before the Avenger class.
EDIT:
Oh, and 5e will be Starcraft II, yes, not Diablo III, Starcraft II. Each player will actually control a small party of heroes, who work with the parties of other players, to fight an army that is controlled by the DM. 5e fans will rejoice about finally having gotten a solution to their 'alt-itus', and haters will compare it to a tactical war game.
EDIT:
Oh, and 5e will be Starcraft II, yes, not Diablo III, Starcraft II. Each player will actually control a small party of heroes, who work with the parties of other players, to fight an army that is controlled by the DM. 5e fans will rejoice about finally having gotten a solution to their 'alt-itus', and haters will compare it to a tactical war game.
Birthright. Or Council of Wyrms.
That's so 2E.
I think we'll certainly see the DDI putting out adventure/encounter building tools, map tools, dungeon tile tools, and eventually the virtual game table as well. And because the software for the virtual table top will be fairly tightly coupled to the 4E ruleset, that will extend 4E's life. I wouldn't be surprised though if we saw a 4.5E update/combination core rule set in 3-5 years. No drastic changes, just clarification and refinement, along with reprinting some material that had gone out of print by then.
L
I think we'll certainly see the DDI putting out adventure/encounter building tools, map tools, dungeon tile tools, and eventually the virtual game table as well. And because the software for the virtual table top will be fairly tightly coupled to the 4E ruleset, that will extend 4E's life. I wouldn't be surprised though if we saw a 4.5E update/combination core rule set in 3-5 years. No drastic changes, just clarification and refinement, along with reprinting some material that had gone out of print by then.
L
And given WotC's track record with digital initiatives, these tools will have half the features that were promised to subscribers, and will in fact serve to generate more whining on the forums.
I think we'll certainly see the DDI putting out adventure/encounter building tools, map tools, dungeon tile tools, and eventually the virtual game table as well. And because the software for the virtual table top will be fairly tightly coupled to the 4E ruleset, that will extend 4E's life. I wouldn't be surprised though if we saw a 4.5E update/combination core rule set in 3-5 years. No drastic changes, just clarification and refinement, along with reprinting some material that had gone out of print by then.
L
And given WotC's track record with digital initiatives, these tools will have half the features that were promised to subscribers, and will in fact serve to generate more whining on the forums.
My, aren't we pessimistic and spiteful?
Hopefully WotC will continue to deliver with digital products on par with the level given by the Character Builder and the Monster Builder. Since those are more desired at the time being, and players and DMs alike want as many options as possible, WotC has it's hands full catching up with Power Sources. One of the core classes from the previous edition (the Monk) isn't even coming out in full until this Spring, the third year into the edition, and a core former subclass and former Prestige class (the Assassin) may be out, but the Power Source it's leading the charge with won't even show it's horns until 2011 by the earliest. When the slated Power Sources start to taper down, we'll probably start seeing more of the digital initiatives spoken of early on in development. According to a column from our Player-in-Chief, there were A LOT of kinks and problems with the Character Visualiser, at the very least, and it was NOT the quality of the CharBuilder. That sort of thing needs time, energy, and money that is better spent at the moment filling out the archetypes that ACTUALLY LET US PLAY THE GAME WE WANT TO PLAY.
So yes, I believe that the D&Di will eventually achieve what they promised us at the beginning, and I believe it'll come this edition. But WotC can better serve their time at the moment delivering to us the character archetypes we want to play as in the form of classes and races and the builds thereof.
As well as the countless monsters that still need 4e stats, and the various concepts that are so vague right now that they could have entire tomes on them... say, like the Feywild or the Wilden. Oh wait... we have book lines set up for these!
So there's where I stand, at least.
I agree with you there Mar the game needs to be filled out with new classes and builds before we get hard into the tech side of things but I also must say I really like the DDI character builder and monster builder and would like to see an adventure builder and map builder to go with the monster builder. as far as the character visualizer I for one would like to see it dropped as it does not bring enough to the game. I think everyone should remember that D&D is a table top roleplaying game that has some cool computer programs to assist in playing the game not a computer game you play at a table.
True, true. I'd rather see an Adventure Builder and a Map Builder than a Character Visualiser.
I'd also like to see them looking into to adapting the programs for Mac OSX and Linux... right now they're isolating that part of the market. I can only use the CharBuilder and Monster Builder when I'm home at my parent's house because I use a MacBook and the only Windows computer I have is back at home.
LOL! QFT
Aside from W.O.C. won't suddenly stop wanting to make product to sell, but why assume 4th edition will just stop being of use to anyone?
I bought a couple of books from Advanced. But I wasn't really a DM in those days.
I bought way too much 2nd edition stuff. I think I was an idiot. I also think their books weren't uniform format and 2nd edition hard covers were the worst bound books ever to grace my shelves.
Bought too much Forgotten Realms setting things too.
Got disenchanted and sold it all off for peanuts to friends.
Was suficiently 'burned' feeling that I simply refused to buy into 3.0 which was nice considering they re did it as 3.5. Felt sad for my friends that got seriously suckered though.
And even though 3.5 has some incredibly well made books from a physical stand point, I don't like the way they are written and I also think Open License was a horrible mistake.
I KNOW I can find some gaffes with 4th, hardly a shock. I can find that in any game I have ever bought.
But I am not buying 4th edition on the assumption in 4 years or so I am going to turf it all because someone releases a game and calls it D&D 5th edition.
Sorry, but the people at W.O.C. will simply need to find someone else to help them make their mortgage payments
I wouldn't have bought 4th at all, if I hadn't been convinced I couldn't do a better job myself.
I've written a few designs of my own eh. I think a lot of us can say as much.
I plan to play 4th edition till I am darned good and ready to stop.
I've already noticed that some books have limited over all worth. I bought Martial Power as meat heads, you can never have too much of that sort of thing in the game.
I was set to get Arcane and Divine until I realized you actually reeeeeally don't need a lot of that sort of thing if you have DDI and the PC generator handy.
All those books are good for, is making the PC. Once the PC is made and you have a print out, the books have nothing much more to offer the player during play.
There ARE some books that are just needless ways to spend money of course.
I doubt I am buying any of the Race books either.
Why does there HAVE to be a 5th edition?
Aside from W.O.C. won't suddenly stop wanting to make product to sell, but why assume 4th edition will just stop being of use to anyone?
There will be other "new" EDITIONS because there have been past editions. It is not because any past editions "just stop being of use to anyone[.]" Certainly they did NOT stop useful to everyone.
New ED.'s don't happen because the rules are bad. It is about sales.
I'm probably not going to be using the 4ED Player Handbook (I play in an AD&D 1ED game) that I bought, but it is still money that WotC made.
When 5ED comes out I'll take a look and will probably buy the Handbook again. But I'm not looking forward to it like I was to 4ED. Because it was such a different style of game --- the next could be even more different.
3D video generators as an option?