Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 excalainen Jan 13, 2012 20:00:18	The latest errata fixed the zone-bouncing issue. What still remains to be fixed in 4e after that? Maybe we can make a list to help the designers. I will compile a list of suggestions in this message as they accumulate in the thread. The list in no particular order. I look forward to crossing over items as they are fixed in future errata: Kulkor Arms Master paragon path's level 16 feature is too powerful. FIXED! Classes with psionic augmentation allow spamming of augmented low-level at-will powers. There is not enough encouragement to use higher level augmentable at-will powers. Con-based shamans and swarm druids have trouble maintaining adequate AC. Swarm druid's damage reduction is too low with post-Monster Manual 3 damage values. Many artificer powers and class features do not work properly since daily item uses are not restricted anymore. Morninglord paragon path's level 16 feature is too powerful when party concentrates on dealing radiant damage. Charging, multi-attacks, and non-standard action attacks dominate damage dealing too much, rendering other striker builds ineffective in comparison. Minions need some kind of defense against auto-damage effects (saving throw perhaps?). Battleminds and swordmages need a class feature that allows effective melee basic attacks. Runepriest at-will powers should improve at epic tier as in other AEDU classes. Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness allows unkillable revenants. Warlock's Hellish Rebuke power's extra damage should be limited to 1/round, since it can be abused to deal too much damage. Battle Cleric's Lore is too powerful as hybrid feature. Shaman's spirit companion may be too easily destroyed with post-MM3 damage values. Has it been intentionally left unupgraded? Cleric's Moment of Glory power is too powerful (too high DR at heroic). Cloak of Courage is too powerful pre-combat buff. Many cleric utility powers should be made minor actions instead of standard actions. They are not taken because of the action cost. The attack bonus of many powers that don't rely on enhancement bonus from weapon or implement doesn't scale properly (dragonborn's breath for instance). Lightning Fury paragon path's level 16 feature needs the 1/turn treatment. Wizard's Storm Pillar power also.
#2 frothsof Jan 13, 2012 20:09:12	there are some good ideas in these recent errata threads. i agree with most of them, but i dont agree with all of them
#3 Darkwolf_Bloodsbane Jan 13, 2012 21:49:42	K. A. M.
#4 excalainen Jan 14, 2012 12:15:00	K. A. M. Kulkor Arms Master, check. Can you elaborate what exactly makes it broken? I do not know the specifics myself. I want to include the details in my list.
#5 frothsof Jan 14, 2012 17:05:07	K. A. M. Kulkor Arms Master, check. Can you elaborate what exactly makes it broken? I do not know the specifics myself. I want to include the details in my list. this basically 'Once per round, when you knock an enemy prone with a melee attack, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as a free action.'
#6 Eisenritter Jan 14, 2012 17:11:27	Classes with Psionic Augmentation need a way to, shall we say, encourage players to upgrade their at-wills.
#7 BlinkBlink Jan 15, 2012 2:54:53	* Con-Shamans and Swarm Druids still have serious AC issues. * Swarm Druid damage reduction was scaled to original MM damage and is too low for the reformulated MM3 damage. (A similar complaint could be made in theory for the Shileding Swordmage, but in practice I'm told that this has turned out to be just fine.) * Did they fix the Belt of Brokenness? cause that needs fixed.
#8 nabikasu Jan 15, 2012 5:30:33	Artificers.  Mostly just in that they have a power or two that just flat-out does not work any more, and could use a looking at anyway in light of the rarity rules. If nothing else, half of the Cannith Mastermaker PP is completely non-functional due to it relying on 'daily uses of magic item powers'. Hardly the most pressing issue, but it exists!
#9 GelatinousOctahedron Jan 15, 2012 8:40:59	A lot of people think moringlord is overpowered with its vulnerabilities. A few classes need major support and/or rewrites: seeker, vampire, binder, cavalier, and arguably hexblade and bladesinger. Charging in general is the top way to boost dpr, even for builda that are not supposed to be built for charging.  Multiattacks and non standard attacks generally outperform standard action attacks.
#10 Garthanos Jan 15, 2012 11:01:55	Epic DMing and World Building need books. does that count as fixing?
#42 Tony_Vargas Jan 22, 2012 14:38:34	Multi-attacks need somthing similar too... Hurricane of blades:  1|W| first hit.  Str mod each additional hit. Rain of Blows:  1|W| first hit.  Str mod each additional hit. You could take it down to a single damage roll per round, ever.  Multi-attacks could add +1[w] (or damage die) vs a single target, or just let your damage roll count against more enemies by hitting more.   Off-round attacks might just allow you to do your prior-round's damage against an enemy you haven't already damaged, or another +[W] or additional condition/effect vs one you have.  Limit excessive stacking damage bonuses, as well, and you'd seriously curtail high-damage abuses.
#43 excalainen Jan 23, 2012 19:29:38	The Minotaur  What's wrong with the minotaur?
#44 Tichrimo Jan 25, 2012 7:36:49	Battleminds need a class feature for MBA's. And swordmages!  (At the very least assault swordmages, as they use their MBA as mark enforcement; shielding and ensnaring don't.) EDIT:  Also in the realm of BA's, it'd be nice to tweak the hybrid rules to somehow allow hybrid strikers to use their extra striker damage with stock MBA's and RBA's.  Currently, since these basic attacks are not a power from either hybrid class, they can't add their extra striker damage to them, which puts them slightly behind the damage curve (especially with respect to attack enablers like warlords, or hybrid striker/defenders meting out mark punishments). Definitely more of a "nice to have" than a "needs fixing", but thought I'd throw it in the pot.
#45 Darkwolf_Bloodsbane Jan 25, 2012 9:29:13	To be fair, Swordmages have Intelligent Blademaster. Yes, its a feat tax, but its better than melee training.
#46 Tichrimo Jan 25, 2012 10:08:46	To be fair, Swordmages have Intelligent Blademaster. Yes, its a feat tax, but its better than melee training. And battleminds have melee training (which is a feat tax, but better than being stuck using their Strength score). A lot of the issues being cited here have workarounds (such as jimmying your stats and/or taking extra feats to plug a hole); the point is they shouldn't have to be worked around, and that by spending your resources on said workaround, your character is a bit (or a lot) behind.
#47 excalainen Jan 25, 2012 10:34:14	BTW, are there still any zone or zone-like effects remaining that didn't get the 1/turn nerf? If so, we should list them too.
#48 mellored Jan 25, 2012 10:41:22	BTW, are there still any zone or zone-like effects remaining that didn't get the 1/turn nerf? If so, we should list them too. Lightning Fury (easily needs nerfed) and Storm Pillar (might be ok).
#49 Darkwolf_Bloodsbane Jan 25, 2012 20:18:51	To be fair, Swordmages have Intelligent Blademaster. Yes, its a feat tax, but its better than melee training. And battleminds have melee training (which is a feat tax, but better than being stuck using their Strength score). A lot of the issues being cited here have workarounds (such as jimmying your stats and/or taking extra feats to plug a hole); the point is they shouldn't have to be worked around, and that by spending your resources on said workaround, your character is a bit (or a lot) behind. True, but when Intelligent Blademaster is older than Melee Training, and was published in the same book as the Swordmage in the first place, it feels less like a workaround, especially as Assult SMs were designed to be STR-secondary, and can easily afford to go dual-18s in STR/Int for Genasi, and so IB isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary for Assault SMs, nothing can save Ensnarement, and it and Shielding makes so few MBAs that it isn't a problem for them in the first place. So IB is an OPTION for those who want to dump all their points into INT. you can't really say that all Assault SMs need IB.
#50 warrl Jan 27, 2012 11:14:57	Multi-attacks need somthing similar too... Hurricane of blades:  1|W| first hit.  Str mod each additional hit. Rain of Blows:  1|W| first hit.  Str mod each additional hit. You could take it down to a single damage roll per round, ever. That would make multi-attacks more swingy, but wouldn't change their average damage at all. (Picking a d4 damage die because the math is easier) If you roll 1d4 damage once for each of three different targets, the average is 2.5 and you have a 1.5% chance of doing maximum damage to all three - and an identical chance of doing minimum damage to all three. if you roll 1d4 damage once, and then apply that result to three different targets, the average is still 2.5 but you have a 25% chance of doing maximum damage to all three - and an identical chance of doing minimum damage to all three. I don't see why swingier combat would be considered an improvement. Limit excessive stacking damage bonuses, as well, and you'd seriously curtail high-damage abuses. Now that would change something potentially useful. Although then we have to decide what constitutes "excessive" stacking damage bonuses.
#51 Darkwolf_Bloodsbane Jan 27, 2012 11:31:32	I think the one roll is to eliminate doubling up on bonii. E.g. I've hit with Twin Strike twice against the same creature. I now do 2x(1d4 + static mods). His suggestion seems to make the damage 2d4 + static mods. Making the modifiers damage less important,while increasing the import of yje weapon damage.
#52 Istaran Jan 27, 2012 12:32:33	SO my own take on it for what it's worth: 1) The minimum to realign things would be something like the massive power change they did to zones, only applied to multiattacks and non-standard-action attacks. For multiattacks, they get reworded to be a single attack with two rolls, if you hit the same target twice you do 1[W] (main hand) + 1[W] (offhand) + static. (or more [W]s as appropriate.) That's assuming two weapon style, obviously it's different for different powers. For non-standard action attacks it would be dropping to static damage, with the exception of OA and mark punishment. (These can remain high because they are basically under the tactical control of the target.) It may prove necessary to limit some of the higher end enabler powers then. A power that lets 5 allies make MBAs against a single target is on the same scale as one that lets you make 5 attacks. Something like Direct the Strike or Commander's Strike isn't a problem, though even Hammer and Anvil is 2 damage rolls. 2) They could attack the problem from a different direction. Rather than try to limit damage rolls, limit what can be stacked onto each damage roll. Several bonuses could be converted to 1/rd or 1/turn, especially conditional bonuses that need to be determined upon a hit anytime. For example, Called Shot being 1/rd makes it a sizeable 5 DPR if you always hit at least once (a fair approximation for an op'd ranger) rather than occasionally spiking in an extra 30 damage in a round. That makes it less of a must-have feat. At the same time, I think the scaling on some of the other statics should be modified. Weapon/Implement focus should be +1 per damage die, with 1[W] counting as one die even if two physical dice are rolled. Several others should be similar. This helps bump up the less thoroughly op'd parts of the game, especially strikers like barbarians that rely on big single swings. I'd be tempted to suggest it for enhancement/item bonuses as well, though that may push the damage too high all around. (Also, if it counts on striker bonus dice, that leaves the question of balancing non-diced striker bonuses.)
#53 Tectorman Jan 28, 2012 2:04:17	The Minotaur What's wrong with the minotaur? If you're playing a Strength-using, weapon-using class, nothing.  If you're playing anything else, then your race gives you racial features that you're not using. Minotaur Wizards, for example, are not likely to be doing much charging or have a good Strength score (and roughly a 50/50 chance of having any decent physical ability score).  Therefore, their bonus to AC when charging?  Useless.  Their capacity to get in one last MBA before dropping at 0 hp?  Useless.  Their racial charging power?  Useless. See any of Crimson Concerto's posts/threads on the subject for more details.  Monks need to be able to, in the game proper and without relying on alternatives such as the DMG2 or the Dark Sun setting, apply an enhancement bonus to their unarmed attacks when their unarmed attacks are being used as implements. Umm, a monks implement is his Ki Focus, and you can use the enhancement of your Ki-Focus with any weapon attack, including unarmed strike.  I tough it even stated this in the PHB3 monk entry... The Mountain Disciple (name?) paragon path for the Monk allows additional damage when using your unarmed strikes.  The Monk makes mostly implement attacks, so you should be able to gain this damage on unarmed implement attacks.  However, you also need to be able to hit as you go up higher in level (and indeed, with the DMG2/DSCS rules, you can), which means you need an enhancement bonus or something standing in place of such.  So let's take a look at your options (and bear in mind that we want to apply this enhancement bonus to Unarmed Implement attacks. If you use a magic weapon, you may apply its bonus to both weapon attacks and implement attacks made with the weapon.  We're halfway there, but your unarmed strikes aren't affected by this, so let's move on. If you use a magic ki focus, you may use it by itself for an implement attack (in which case, no other objects (not other weapons, not your unarmed strikes) are affected), or you may use it to apply an enhancement bonus to the weapon's weapon attacks (so you can make MBAs with your unarmed strike, but we're still not helping unarmed implement attacks, which is the large majority of what the Monk is doing). If you use the alternative rules from the DMG2 or DSCS, then an enhancement bonus is applied to anything that might use it automatically (and this includes using an unarmed strike as an implement).  Except that in order to apply these rules, you first have to get the DM on your side, then you have to explain to the group "Hey, guys, I know ya'll might have wanted to gain some magic weapons or wands or armor or whatever, but I needed to be able to hit accurately with my unarmed implement attacks, so I hope ya'll don't mind". TLDR You're correct in what you say, but I'm talking about unarmed implement attacks, not unarmed weapon attacks.
#54 sjmcc13 Jan 28, 2012 2:54:52	Monks need to be able to, in the game proper and without relying on alternatives such as the DMG2 or the Dark Sun setting, apply an enhancement bonus to their unarmed attacks when their unarmed attacks are being used as implements. Umm, a monks implement is his Ki Focus, and you can use the enhancement of your Ki-Focus with any weapon attack, including unarmed strike.  I tough it even stated this in the PHB3 monk entry... The Mountain Disciple (name?) paragon path for the Monk allows additional damage when using your unarmed strikes.  The Monk makes mostly implement attacks, so you should be able to gain this damage on unarmed implement attacks. Not necessarily, Mountain Devotee's feature gives a bonus to a class feature, and you need to look at that feature to see how it works, which states : "When you make a weapon attack such as a melee basic attack, you can use the monk unarmed strike,..." (PHB3) Unarmed strike is ONLY usable with weapon attacks, because that is the only time the criteria in the feature is met.  TLDR You're correct in what you say, but I'm talking about something that does not exist in he rules
#55 mecorva Jan 28, 2012 7:45:54	Did they errata dazing rebuke and strength of valor and others similar? The basic problem is the powers say "until the end of your next turn" but give benefits that wont be useful before the end of your next turn. Strength of valor for instance let's you give +2 damage to an ally who just bloodied or killed an enemy, but if they just did that, it was probably during their standard, which means they won't be attacking again until their next turn. ( yes, multi attacks and action points and off turn attacks can make that power have some fringe use, but it feels like a cool power that was just accidentally broken )
#56 Tectorman Jan 28, 2012 10:42:10	Monks need to be able to, in the game proper and without relying on alternatives such as the DMG2 or the Dark Sun setting, apply an enhancement bonus to their unarmed attacks when their unarmed attacks are being used as implements. Umm, a monks implement is his Ki Focus, and you can use the enhancement of your Ki-Focus with any weapon attack, including unarmed strike.  I tough it even stated this in the PHB3 monk entry... The Mountain Disciple (name?) paragon path for the Monk allows additional damage when using your unarmed strikes.  The Monk makes mostly implement attacks, so you should be able to gain this damage on unarmed implement attacks. Not necessarily, Mountain Devotee's feature gives a bonus to a class feature, and you need to look at that feature to see how it works, which states : "When you make a weapon attack such as a melee basic attack, you can use the monk unarmed strike,..." (PHB3) Unarmed strike is ONLY usable with weapon attacks, because that is the only time the criteria in the feature is met.  TLDR You're correct in what you say, but I'm talking about something that does not exist in he rules Wrong.  As a monk, I can use any weapon I'm proficient with as an implement for any implement-based attack.  I am proficient with my unarmed strike; therefore, I can use my unarmed strike as an implement.  This doesn't usually do much (because it's so difficult to get an enhancement bonus to apply to unarmed strikes), but if I'm using the DMG2/DSCS rules, then I automatically get an enhancement bonus to anything my unarmed strike does (be it an implement attack or a weapon attack).  The Mountain Disciple PP, as well as the other powers, feats, and so on that pay attention to an unarmed strike, only requires that it work with an unarmed strike with no caveats as to what kind of an attack the unarmed strike is making; therefore those benefits apply to both.  Using the DMG2/DSCS rules, I can use an unarmed strike as an implement or a weapon, gain the MD's benefit, and still hit with the accuracy expected at high levels. I'm just saying that the DMG2/DSCS rules should not be necessary.
#57 GelatinousOctahedron Jan 28, 2012 21:06:07	If you're playing a Strength-using, weapon-using class, nothing.  If you're playing anything else, then your race gives you racial features that you're not using. I do agree with this.  Although Minotaur more need alternate racial powers and features in a book or dragon article than errata.  Like how dragonborn got that fear power that was useful for builds that did not bump str/con/dex to use instead of dragonbreath.  I don't have a problem with major racial features that only help a limited number of builds, as long there are alternates you can use with all builds.
#58 mellored Jan 28, 2012 21:27:00	Well at least there a feat for feocity to be an at-will. Thunderwave as an interupt to beingyou dropped isn't bad.
#59 Style75 Jan 28, 2012 21:53:18	'Once per round, when you knock an enemy prone with a melee attack, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as a free action.' This gets my vote for the worst design decision in 4e. I can live with the binder because in the end it's just weak but is still kinda fun (I like the flavor). This is game breaking. This is so horribly broken I can't believe it made it into print. It's the only 4e element I've banned in my games. The fact it hasn't been errataed yet blows my mind.
#60 Kelvor_Ravenstar Feb 04, 2012 0:12:47	I'd like a few fill out powers so that some builds have more than one power to pick from at each level. I.E. a second Bard At-Will ranged weapon power to accompany Jinx Shot.
#61 Garthanos Feb 09, 2012 20:00:10	I'd like a few fill out powers so that some builds have more than one power to pick from at each level. I.E. a second Bard At-Will ranged weapon power to accompany Jinx Shot.  Rythmic repetition, If your first attack hits you set um up a temporaral disturbance and can make a second attack against the same target... This can be with a melee or ranged attack  - History repeats itself... so do I. Afterwards you grant combat advantage while readjusting to the time flow. Guess thats um striker style. Perhaps the second shot is just an echo doing extra ummm CON or Int worth of damage. automatically.