Okay, so we have our first Shadow power source class. In it it describes how you are powered by the Shadowfell. While that seemed to be fairly obvious in early speculation on the power source, this gives a pretty good indication that the Elemental power source will be fueled by the Elemental Chaos. I know there are a few ongoing theories surrounding that power source.
So now the question is... what will the power source do? Thematically that is.
Well I assume the classes will wield pure elental power, maybe something like the Shugenja and Wujen back in 3.5. Hopefully with more accessible names, but the basic ideas behind them would be good.
Several months ago when the Ki source got canned, there were numerous people claiming that Shadow and Elemental were going to be canned too, even after Mearls came out and said they were both still in development. There were even a few hold outs still skeptical of the Assassin being Shadow as late as last month. We see how that turned out.
Anyways, there's going to be a lot of people till going on about how it's so unlikely or impossible to differentiate Elemental from Arcane, or whatever, and use the nebulous idea of "what will Elemental be" as their proof. Well, time will tell if they're right or wrong (and they're wrong 
).
But around the time all of that was going down, and people were in a rush to come up with ideas to justify the Elemental source, one of the better ideas thrown around was the idea of a transmutation theme. Where Primal often reshapes the self, the idea was that Elemental would reshape the world or critters around you instead.
However, transmutation is what Artificers do already. They draw the materials needed for their spells through transmuting any small things they have on hand or anything they can find. That's how they have such "gimmicky" spells that were previously used in descriptions of various martial controller fake builds - something showing that doing that sort of thing really isn't martial, it's arcane. It's probably not elemental either, though Artificer is one of the more elemental arcane classes - it binds elementals too, another "elemental" concept people have come up with.
Personally, I believe elemental will be a power source. I feel the Wu Jen may show us some of the path it'll take, as will the Shugenja (though I feel Shugenja should also be wrapped into a Primal or Divine class as well - the Shinto Priest sort of class).
I just don't know the theme that will ultimately define it - especially since in some settings they've shown that Primordials or Demons can grant divine power (such as the Kyber Cults in Eberron, or the Primordial Cults in FR).
Arcane already deals with most of the things that people have suggested for elemental. I don't think these will define elemental. I don't think "we can't think of a defintion" is an adequate excuse.
However, transmutation is what Artificers do already. They draw the materials needed for their spells through transmuting any small things they have on hand or anything they can find. That's how they have such "gimmicky" spells that were previously used in descriptions of various martial controller fake builds - something showing that doing that sort of thing really isn't martial, it's arcane. It's probably not elemental either, though Artificer is one of the more elemental arcane classes - it binds elementals too, another "elemental" concept people have come up with.
Personally, I believe elemental will be a power source. I feel the Wu Jen may show us some of the path it'll take, as will the Shugenja (though I feel Shugenja should also be wrapped into a Primal or Divine class as well - the Shinto Priest sort of class).
I just don't know the theme that will ultimately define it - especially since in some settings they've shown that Primordials or Demons can grant divine power (such as the Kyber Cults in Eberron, or the Primordial Cults in FR).
Arcane already deals with most of the things that people have suggested for elemental. I don't think these will define elemental. I don't think "we can't think of a defintion" is an adequate excuse.
Lack of proof is not proof. So your right, it is the disenter's job to provide proof something is wrong.
What is the difference between an Invoker, a Druid (min us wildshape), and a wizard. When you get down to the mechanics they all have a lot of similarities, and it's the flavor that really sets them apart. As a fun exercise try to define the controllers we have without talking about where their power come from.
So an elemental controller will get debuffs and crowd control abilities themed around elements. Like how the Invoker gets a lot of radiant powers because it's divine, these contollers will have lots of acid, fire, lightning, thunder, cold powers, maybe with wind (, metal?) and water themed powers(maybe even new subtypes). They may get illusions and fear, but expect element riders on the abilities, and little to no psychic, necrotic, and such.
These are my thoughts.
Lack of proof is not proof. So your right, it is the disenter's job to provide proof something is wrong.
Uh, WHAT?!
However, transmutation is what Artificers do already. They draw the materials needed for their spells through transmuting any small things they have on hand or anything they can find.
Er ... not really. Their spells are mostly either buffs that are infusing arcane energy into an object, which is not transmutation, or outright building little gadgets to do things (even if those build times are like 3 seconds ....) which is also different from transmutation. The only thing Artificers do that could be considered transmutation is their improved ability at alchemy, which requires a feat.
Does everybody agree what the list of 'elements' includes? For example ...
Elemental damage types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder.
Genasi elements: earth, water, wind, fire, storm.
Asian-style elements? Water, metal, water, earth, ... wood??
Any other elemental contenders?
this gives a pretty good indication that the Elemental power source will be fueled by the Elemental Chaos.
Call me crazy, but this is what I've assumed from the moment I heard of the power source. I personally can't fathom how "the elements" (whatever you define them to be, but including the basics of fire, earth, water, air, etc) deserve their own power source. They're cool sub-themes for Arcane powers, or magic weapons, or damage types, or Genasi types, any other similar division. But for a whole power source? I'd rather see it mixed with something else, so we don't get some sort of division where one element = one class (which I think would either be full of stereotypes, if you could call them that, or would have people complaining the elements didn't match the classes the way they wanted)
But given the divisions of existing power sources (physical/mental for Martial/Psionic, esoteric knowledge for Arcane (maybe with some fey energies tossed in for grins and giggles so my "power source map" balances out.... lol), earthly Primal Spirits for Primal, tapping into the Shadowfel for Shadow, and then the Astral Sea fueling Divine powers), it seems almost painfully obvious (to me) that an Elemental power source should draw from the Elemental Chaos.
They could have called it "Primordial" if it was to be the thematic antithesis to Divine, but I suspect we'll be getting more stuff from the plane itself, as opposed to drawing from the Primordials themselves (like Divine does with the various deities).
Classes could/should be more interesting that way, methinks. You could have a Primordial priest of sorts, funcitoning as the Elemental Cleric, where he draws power from the primordials, might be a leader and share other cleric traits, but would totally be its own thing. Then you go with something fun, like a Striker that is a living embodiment of the 4e elementals. Sure, a guy that shoots fireballs and/or creates torandos is cool. But how about one that mixes/matches like the elementals in the monster manual do. So now it's a tornado that slings rocks, or a bolt of chain lightening that deals cold damage, or a mild earthquake that heats the floor and deals fire damage. You could do all sorts of crazy awesome stuff with a class like that. I'd go as far as to say you could rewrite the basic formula for classes (like the Psions stuff where he has fewer powers but can augment them), going with fewer, generic powers (like the tornado and earthquake and fireball/explosion), and then shift "stances" that change damage type. And you could add "specialization" in that a fireball doing fire damage packs more oomph than other "fire"ball attacks, so you can focus on which element you like best by picking powers that benefit from that element "stance", or you can be a whirlwind of madness by picking powers you think are cool and changing stance as needed.
That's mostly me rambling as to what I think would be cool, but I do think that such a class would be more plausible under the power source drawing from the Elemental Chaos than a straight "Element" power source.
Come to think of it, you could do some other nifty things with an Elemental Chaos power source. I mean, there are other realms in the plane itself that could lead to some pretty classes. (I kinda think it would be cool to have the Elemental classes be almost ridiculously unrelated outside of the fact that they all pull their power from the same plane)
Lack of proof is not proof. So your right, it is the disenter's job to provide proof something is wrong.
Uh, WHAT?!
In logical debates a lack a proof for something is not considered proof to the contrary. Just like people for the elemental power source have to provide proof it's possible, those against it have to provide proof it's not. Basically each side has to provide proof.
In logical debates a lack a proof for something is not considered proof to the contrary.
That's exactly what it is. If you cannot prove claim X, then that is a strong indicator that not-X. Proof:
Suppose that a priori X has probability a of being true. We now look for evidence for X of a certain type. Suppose that there is a probablity b that we find this evidence if X is true and probability b' that we find this evidence if X is false. We will assume a<1 (otherwise we wouldn't bother looking for evidence) and that b>b' (otherwise it couldn't be said that the evidence we're looking for is evidence for X).
So we have four possibilities:
- X is true and we find evidence for X: probability ab
- X is true and we don't find evidence for X: probability a(1-b)
- X is false and we find evidence for X: probability (1-a)b'
- X is false and we don't find evidence for X: probability (1-a)(1-b')
Theorem
Under the hypotheses above, the conditional probability that X is true given that we failed to find the evidence is a(1-b)/(a(1-b) + (1-a)(1-b')).
Proof
Use Bayes' Theorem.
Some rearrangement:
a(1-b)/(a(1-b) + (1-a)(1-b'))< a
But cancelling a gives us
(1-b)/(a(1-b) + (1-a)(1-b')) < 1
and rearranging to gather a terms
(1-b)/(a((1-b)-(1-b')) + (1-b')) < 1
which can be expressed as
(1-b) < a((1-b)-(1-b')) + (1-b')
or
(1-b)-(1-b') < a((1-b)-(1-b'))
or, cancelling for commons,
1 < a
which contradicts our initial condition of a < 1
It doesn't matter if we are unable to assign an a priori probability, this holds whatever value a has as long as it's less than 1. And if we don't know that b>b' then we shouldn't be in the business of looking for evidence. If the experiment we're doing is any good then b'=0 but as I have shown, the result holds even if we relax this condition.
So clearly failing to find evidence for X should lower our estimate of the probability that X is true.
I have this text ready in a .docx file on my computer, so don't get me wrong that I made an extreme effort just to prove you wrong. It just came in handy.
Just like people for the elemental power source have to provide proof it's possible, those against it have to provide proof it's not. Basically each side has to provide proof.
Sure, but this doesn't have a whole lot to do with the sentence that preceded it. Before the quoted part you came off a sort of anti-skeptic, but I guess I was wrong.
I was basing what I said of of debates, like debate clubs back in highschool. Using a lack of proof to prove your side was considered a fallacy. Yes lack of proof likely means it is not true, but not that it definantly is false. The use in debates mostly means that you have to prove your point with your own work. And I was mostly just impressed that you went through that much work period, it was interesting. I'm all for healthy debate, but I think we've derailed this thread enough, so I'm done.
I wish I had more to contribute on topic, but I have nothing new to add since not much has changed since the least thing I read.
It may well be the Elemental power source will be the 'Fireball specialist' power source.
Even tho the Wizard is archetypically the Fireball caster, the Arcane power source seems to function as the 'generalist' power source. Arcane can do anything. Psionic Charm and Force, Shadow Necrotic, Divine Heal, Primal Shapechange, ... and Elemental Fire.
In other words, just because a Wizard can do something, in no way evidences that other power sources cant do it.
Classes could range from a wizardish master of Elemental 'evocations' with a good variety of powers in their arsenal, to a more superhero-style class that focuses on just a handful of potent effects - Iceman, Human Torch, Thing, Vision, Storm, and so on come to mind.
It may well be the Elemental power source will be the 'Fireball specialist' power source.
Even tho the Wizard is archetypically the Fireball caster, the Arcane power source seems to function as the 'generalist' power source. Arcane can do anything. Psionic Charm and Force, Shadow Necrotic, Divine Heal, Primal Shapechange, ... and Elemental Fire.
In other words, just because a Wizard can do something, in no way evidences that other power sources cant do it.
Classes could range from a wizardish master of Elemental 'evocations' with a good variety of powers in their arsenal, to a more superhero-style class that focuses on just a handful of potent effects - Iceman, Human Torch, Thing, Vision, Storm, and so on come to mind.
I sincerely hope the elemental power source isn't a D&D version of Captain Planet.
LOL! Theres probably room for Captain Planet too.
Dont worry too much tho. Some of the Asian-inspired classes that will probably end up using the Elemental power source will help round out its flavors.
I sincerely hope the elemental power source isn't a D&D version of Captain Planet.
oh dear god thats frightening.
I still think Transmutation will be a major theme, but not in a 'I turn into something recognizable' way like Primal but more in similar to 'I've added an extra oxygen atom to this water molecule and now its properties changed' type of thing.
The Elemental Chaos contains the basic building block of the world, so shifting those around, trading them with the surrounding worl would be my guess. Heck imagine a controller who steals certain building blocks from a monster and puts it on his allies, giving a debuff to the monster and raising that ally's AC for exemple! Or maybe give that monster a weakness to fire damage by putting more cold into him and stuff like that.
I can also see something like the old 'Earth to Mud' spell as a utility power that makes or unmake difficult terrain.
How about mutation? The primal "theme of transformation" was a total flop, so the elemental power source could pick some of that up. I certainly wouldn't mind a class that could grow tentacles, claws, spikes and other stuff from his body.
Undrave: I still think Transmutation will be a major theme, but not in a 'I turn into something recognizable' way like Primal but more in similar to 'I've added an extra oxygen atom to this water molecule and now its properties changed' type of thing.
That makes sense to me.
I see 'shapeshifting' different from 'transmutation'. Shapeshifting is more about transforming into something organic (animal, plant, or similar living substance like wood, horn, or so on).
Transmutation is more about transforming into something inorganic (earth, metal, water, even air and fire). Hmmm. In fact, this kind of transmutation seems to be the exact same thing as alchemy.
Personally I'd love the Elemental Striker to use heavy armor. It would make sense to me that someone versed in transmutation of materials would gain from using more and heavier materials as his based ingredient and tools.
Also looking to 4e elementals for inspiration, I don't think the Elemental power source will include primarily "one element" damage types. I see flaming ice balls or thundering stones or lightning rains. If this power source stems from the Elemental Chaos in some fashion, and the Elemental Chaos is a constantly changing amalgam of elements (for the most part) then I think it would be reflected in the powers of those tapping in to it.
Also looking to 4e elementals for inspiration, I don't think the Elemental power source will include primarily "one element" damage types. I see flaming ice balls or thundering stones or lightning rains. If this power source stems from the Elemental Chaos in some fashion, and the Elemental Chaos is a constantly changing amalgam of elements (for the most part) then I think it would be reflected in the powers of those tapping in to it.
Certainly! I don't think someone dealing with the Elemental Chaos could stay stable for long.
Maybe some powers could inflict one type of damage (say lightning) to a primary target at range and then a burst of say cold washes over anybody adjacent to you as a sort of reaction and so on. Or the leader hits some guy with a fireball and suddenly you, sitting next to him, gain resist acid for some reason!
I could see the elemental power source as being great for offensive and defensive ways to bypass resistances/immunities or become resistant/immune on the fly. Fighting against fire users? Until the end of your next turn, become resistant to fire. Fighting against fire immunes? Until the end of your next turn, all your attacks become cold based.
Mutations, shape shifting, transformations could all be included as builds. But where a wizard or sorcerer is proficient with different forms of elemental magics, an elementalist would be an expert. So, for example, a fireball from an elementalist would probably be more devastating and have added effects. I'm more a fan of composite energy than powerful single source energy. So being resistant to the attacks of elementalists would be very hard.
I could also see some primordial love. Builds or classes that deal with primordials much like clerics deal with gods, without being primordial clerics. Maybe more like invokers or avengers or even druids.
Also, I was thinking of the geomancer from final fantasy tactics and its ability to shape the battlefield. The ability to change the area to work for the elementalist and against its opponents would be very neat. Surrounded or being rushed by ugly brutes? Quicksand the area or bust out some hot magma (say it with me, MAG-MA)...
The idea of summoning primordial aspects or servants like titans is also very appealing. Oh you summoned a huge balor or raised tons of zombieskeletonvampires? K! Abra-KA-titans! I choose you, essence of elemental chaos! Elementals charge at you like you is steak, and they is hungry!
I don't think we should dismiss the idea of chaos as an elemental theme. Primordials are referred to as "Lords of Chaos" in dragon magazine. I could easily see elemental characters introducing entropy effects to their foes, reducing the order of a living creature into chaos. He didn't hit you with a fireball, he turned you into a fireball!
We could also see some wild-magic sorcerer-esque randomness, such as an attack that introduces a ripple of chaos into an area, scattering your foes by teleporting them all 3 squares in a random direction.
I'd imagine On-going damage will be pretty common and At-Will powers that gain bonus when attacking foe with on-going damage or saved end effect would be pretty sweet.
How about mutation? The primal "theme of transformation" was a total flop, so the elemental power source could pick some of that up
.... What? A total flop? Uh ... no.
As an entirely alternative route, I think the elemental power source could possibly be tied to, not only the elemental chaos, but to the primodials themselves.
4e has thuroughly placed the gods (divine) against the primordials (elemental) in many aspects: warring before time started, astral sea vs. elemental chaos, etc.
For instance, the 3e flavor of the Wu Jen class was that it stepped outside of "normal" society (the taboos). We could very well see the Wu Jen breaking the "normal" mode by drawing strength from imprisoned primordials rather than the gods the way the divine classes do.
This could be a reoccuring theme with the elemental power source, and a source of the 3-way balance that WotC has been implementing in 4e (shadowfell (dark earth)=normal earth=feywild (bright earth); astral sea=normal world=elemental chaos; gods=primal spirits=primordials).
.... What? A total flop? Uh ... no.
Half the classes had it, and one to a not so great extent. For something being advertised as the "main theme of teh primal power source!!!!!", yes that is a total flop.
As an entirely alternative route, I think the elemental power source could possibly be tied to, not only the elemental chaos, but to the primodials themselves.4e has thuroughly placed the gods (divine) against the primordials (elemental) in many aspects: warring before time started, astral sea vs. elemental chaos, etc.
It's an interesting theory, but the problem with that approach is that the history of hostility between the gods and primordials could all too easily lead to intra-party conflict within groups that contain both divine and elemental characters.
.... What? A total flop? Uh ... no.
Half the classes had it, and one to a not so great extent. For something being advertised as the "main theme of teh primal power source!!!!!", yes that is a total flop.
Druids transformed completely and bodily. Wildshape
Wardens transformed partially and bodily. Form
Barbarians transformed partially and spirtually. Rage
Shamans transformed their spirit pets.
To put it more succinctly, the Primal power source tended to significantly change the way you played when used throughout the encounter.
"...drawing strength from imprisoned primordials rather than the gods the way the divine classes do."
At this point, aren't the primordials really just gods, but just specialmagicdifferent?
(shadowfell (dark earth)=normal earth=feywild (bright earth); astral sea=normal world=elemental chaos; gods=primal spirits=primordials).
This is an interesting line of thinking I had not stumbled upon before.
.... What? A total flop? Uh ... no.
Half the classes had it, and one to a not so great extent. For something being advertised as the "main theme of teh primal power source!!!!!", yes that is a total flop.
If by half you mean 3 of 4, sure. And transformation is not just shapeshifting. Anyways, no, it was not a flop.
Druids transformed completely and bodily. Wildshape
Wardens transformed partially and bodily. Form
Barbarians transformed partially and spirtually. Rage
Shamans transformed their spirit pets.To put it more succinctly, the Primal power source tended to significantly change the way you played when used throughout the encounter.
What does "transformed their spirit pets" even mean?
If by half you mean 3 of 4, sure. And transformation is not just shapeshifting. Anyways, no, it was not a flop.
By half I mean two of four. That's what half is. Only the Warden and Druid transform at all. The other definitions of "transform" apply to all other power sources as well. That comes nowhere close to being a central theme as was stated it would be. Thats what a flop is: a failure. It failed to deliver and you fail to deliver (decent points that is).
If by half you mean 3 of 4, sure. And transformation is not just shapeshifting. Anyways, no, it was not a flop.
By half I mean two of four. That's what half is. Only the Warden and Druid transform at all. The other definitions of "transform" apply to all other power sources as well. That comes nowhere close to being a central theme as was stated it would be. Thats what a flop is: a failure. It failed to deliver and you fail to deliver (decent points that is).
You need to reread the PHB2 again. The Barbarian Rage mechanic is also transformation. That's 3. You have failed to deliver a decent argument for a case otherwise. The theme is not a failure, only your attempts at arguing it to be so are.
[VCL Hat On]
Ok, so I knwo this is Mudbunny's turf and I don't mean to start a gaang war of 2 with him (heh) but seeing as I started this thread, I'll just say:
By all means, vigorously disagree, but play nice and keep the personal attacks out of it.
That is all.
[/VCL Hat Off]
I need to get a big hat like Mudbunny's.
I was thinking maybe something along the lines of the "shaper" elemental magic from the old Elfquest comics.
You need to reread the PHB2 again. The Barbarian Rage mechanic is also transformation. That's 3. You have failed to deliver a decent argument for a case otherwise. The theme is not a failure, only your attempts at arguing it to be so are.
A "NO U" argument? Grow up. Look, I have the book in front of me as I'm typing this. There is nothing there about transformation. You can keep pretending there is, but that is delusion, not knowledge.
Barbarian rages are a transformation mechanic. That's a fact, not an opinion or delusion.
A "NO U" argument? Grow up. Look, I have the book in front of me as I'm typing this. There is nothing there about transformation. You can keep pretending there is, but that is delusion, not knowledge.
What do you mean nothing there about Transformation? You mean in the Barbarian? Huh... the more you advance in level the more supernatural the rages get and more physical the transformation becomes.
The level 1 rages are not visually impressive but you gain new abilities, indicating a subtle change in your body and you certain change mentally.
At level 5 the Rages let you unleash elemental damage from your body.
From there on it goes even more supernatural.
Rages ARE transformations. They grant you new abilities and change the way your character plays out during the encounter. The Bear Warrior paragon path puts more emphasis on the more visual aspect of it too.
What I meant about Shamans is that their spirit has a base form, then many powers transform it into something else to do different things. The daily powers have encounter long transformations that turn your spirit into a living zone effect.
Barbarian rages are a transformation mechanic. That's a fact, not an opinion or delusion.
False. Rages are a channeling mechanic. They all have text like "you channel x spirit," "x spirit courses through you," etc.
What I meant about Shamans is that their spirit has a base form, then many powers transform it into something else to do different things. The daily powers have encounter long transformations that turn your spirit into a living zone effect.
Not a single daily power has such an effect. A couple of encounter powers describe it as momentarily taking an alternate form. That hardly makes transformation a central theme, even coupled with the druid and warden.
Barbarian rages are a transformation mechanic. That's a fact, not an opinion or delusion.
False. Rages are a channeling mechanic. They all have text like "you channel x spirit," "x spirit courses through you," etc.
Mechanically Rages give you new ability, unlock new abilities in your At-Will powers and give you new bonus. That's a transformation right there. Sure its not a 'fluff' transformation so much as a mechanical one, but the 'theme of transformation' was stated by a designer, not the book itself so really it meant that at some point in the encounter a Primal class usually changes how it plays.
Now the shaman though I'd say you're right and that class has almost zero transformation to it. Maybe that'll be fixed in Primal Power. Either way to me that's still 3 out of 4.
Ok. Putting the train back on track.
Elemental Defender: How would it mark? I believe its safe to bet that it will follow the trend of marking multiple enemies. It could have an aura effect - slows adjacent enemies, or adjacent squares become difficult terrain. Maybe a class feature that buffs its AC (wrapping itself in stone or somesuch).
Elemental Striker: Power of Chaos - target gains vulnerable 5 to X element until reduced to 0 hp. Maybe a class feature that lets them move quickly across terrain (shoot across as bolt of lightning or flow through the earth to new position).
Elemental Leader: Infuses allies with the raw energy of creation to heal them. Maybe has stronger ties to the primordials than other elemental classes. Instead of Channel Divinity powers maybe an Elemental Surge set of power/feats available to the entire group of elemental classes.
Elemental Controller: Here's where the mixture of elements could really shine. Zones that hinder movement and deal elemental damage. Area bursts that freeze and burn and leave you dazed. Elementals obeying your commands. Unlimited options.
What do ya'll think? (yes, I'm from the South)
I like the defender giving dfficult terrain around them.
For the leader I think something like the shaman from WOW
Contorller could be a geomancer, changing terrain an abilities that have different effect in different landscapes.
Stirker would be an elemental tempest, conflicting damge types, and things like that.
For an homebrew Elemental class idea I had the Striker mechanic was that everytime the character hit a target with a damage type that target would gain vulnerability to that damage type until the end of the striker's next turn. Essentially by hitting the same target over and over with the same damage type you keep up the vulnerability and your allies can also make use of it.
However the Elemental source turns out, I get the feeling that we'll be getting our first preview of what Elemental classes are like with Dark Sun. Maybe the Templar will be reflavored as an Elemental Defender class, or we'll get something else to represent the elemental equivalent of the cleric.
Either way, with the importance of psionics and elemental power to the setting, there's a good chance the class introduced with Dark Sun will be elemental. The alternative is a Martial Controller class in the form of the Gladiator, but people feel that the concept has too much overlap with existing classes already (including the multi-class feats released in the gladiator article).
However the Elemental source turns out, I get the feeling that we'll be getting our first preview of what Elemental classes are like with Dark Sun. Maybe the Templar will be reflavored as an Elemental Defender class, or we'll get something else to represent the elemental equivalent of the cleric.
Either way, with the importance of psionics and elemental power to the setting, there's a good chance the class introduced with Dark Sun will be elemental. The alternative is a Martial Controller class in the form of the Gladiator, but people feel that the concept has too much overlap with existing classes already (including the multi-class feats released in the gladiator article).
Not to go completely destroying your idea there, but I was reading yesterda that DS won't introduce a new class, but will instead focus more on reflavoring/tweaking the existing classes to DS.
Elemental Defender: Blackguard
Elemental Striker: Ninja
Elemental Leader; ?
Elemental Controller: Summoner
The Elemental chaos contains the hells as well iirc. so i'm expecting someone to go there and get power, or pool on power from there.
The Ninja being more of a Naruto Ninja, using energy of different elements to generate various effects.
I except an Elemental Controller to be a conjuration or summoning focused character.
As an entirely alternative route, I think the elemental power source could possibly be tied to, not only the elemental chaos, but to the primodials themselves.4e has thuroughly placed the gods (divine) against the primordials (elemental) in many aspects: warring before time started, astral sea vs. elemental chaos, etc.
It's an interesting theory, but the problem with that approach is that the history of hostility between the gods and primordials could all too easily lead to intra-party conflict within groups that contain both divine and elemental characters.
Couldn't the same thing be said of divine characters vs. primal characters already, since the Gods angered the Primal Spirits? Or divine characters against Warlocks who draw power from even lesser powers that Primordials and Primal Spirits?
Anyways, let me add to my original thoughts that perhaps the drawing energy from the Primordials might not be with the consent of the Primordials (think Ur-Priest from 3e).
So while the elemental pcs are harnessing energy that the divine pcs don't like, the elemental pcs aren't working in league with the Primordials against the Gods and the divine characters.
Elemental Defender: Blackguard
Elemental Striker: Ninja
Elemental Leader; ?
Elemental Controller: Summoner
The Elemental chaos contains the hells as well iirc. so i'm expecting someone to go there and get power, or pool on power from there.
The Ninja being more of a Naruto Ninja, using energy of different elements to generate various effects.
I except an Elemental Controller to be a conjuration or summoning focused character.
The Assassin is the Ninja.
The Assassin is the Ninja.
No, the Assassin is the Assassin, the Rogue is the Rogue, they're all stealthy types of their respective power source. I'm talking about a different kind of Ninja, who might be considered the stealthy member of the Elemental Power Source. Then again he may just jump around in an Orange and black suit summoning toads and wind scythes.
The Assassin is the Ninja.
No, the Assassin is the Assassin, the Rogue is the Rogue, they're all stealthy types of their respective power source. I'm talking about a different kind of Ninja, who might be considered the stealthy member of the Elemental Power Source. Then again he may just jump around in an Orange and black suit summoning toads and wind scythes.
Well, the Assassin went and killed the Ninja and took it's stuff. Or the Ninja went, killed the Assassin and took it's name. Either way, it's highly unprobable to see a Ninja in future releases, even an Elemental one.
Any particular Ninja?
As In my post I explained that I was refering to the more Naruto styled Ninja which uses elemental Chakra to generate attacks.
Not a Ninja who can use sudden strike and make himself intangable whilst running up walls.
Not a Rogue who uses shurikens and is martial powered
Not an Assassin who uses Shadow powers to generate shadow effects and uses poisons, soul corruption and ghostly powers.
So I really don't see how the Assassin killed anything or the Ninja killed anything when there are so many possible deffinitions of Ninja.
Maybe they're from the Village of Shadow.
If you want to argue whether an assassin could model a Naruto Ninja, here's some similiarities I've noticed: Shikamaru uses Shadow magic; Assassins get a Shadow clone technique like Naruto; Assassins have no problems using Huge weapons with Stealth (like most Naruto villians), and can also weaponize unusual things (like tootpicks; there was a minor character who attacked with them), or barehanded (like Lee, but he's more a monk) with Ki Focus.
I have never seen an episode, but from what I know about it it seems like it would just be a setting flavor more than a class flavor; I think if you want Naruto your best bet is to take every class in D&D and change it's name to Ninja.
If you want to argue whether an assassin could model a Naruto Ninja, here's some similiarities I've noticed: Shikamaru uses Shadow magic; Assassins get a Shadow clone technique like Naruto; Assassins have no problems using Huge weapons with Stealth (like most Naruto villians), and can also weaponize unusual things (like tootpicks; there was a minor character who attacked with them), or barehanded (like Lee, but he's more a monk) with Ki Focus.
And Assassins can breath fire, summon toads, create giant stone walls, burn things with their eyes, turn into water and create wind sycthes that can cut down mountains.
Oh wait.. that's elemental powered Ninja's.
If you want to argue whether an assassin could model a Naruto Ninja, here's some similiarities I've noticed: Shikamaru uses Shadow magic; Assassins get a Shadow clone technique like Naruto; Assassins have no problems using Huge weapons with Stealth (like most Naruto villians), and can also weaponize unusual things (like tootpicks; there was a minor character who attacked with them), or barehanded (like Lee, but he's more a monk) with Ki Focus.
And Assassins can breath fire, summon toads, create giant stone walls, burn things with their eyes, turn into water and create wind sycthes that can cut down mountains.Oh wait.. that's elemental powered Ninja's.
But... who in their right mind would see those actions and think "Ninja"? I have no problem with Naruto-like abilities being in the game, but I'll be damned if you want to stick a "Ninja" sticker on it. They may be Ninja's in Naruto, but I don't think there should be a pure elemental class that covers that "type" of Ninja. If you want to emulate a Naruto ninja, I would multiclass/hybrid with Rogue or Assassin and whichever elemental class covers it. "Elemental Ninja" just doesn't sound like a good idea for a class.
I mean, no offense, but you just described a Wizard/Warlock who sneaks up and kills people (none of those abilities, or the title "assassin", require any Rogue/Assassin powers, really; all you'd need is a spellcaster who can do some/most of those things, and then focus on feats/skills/powers that might aid his stealthiness)
but I want a snake eyes ninja and the assassin baseflop is not good enough
but I want a snake eyes ninja and the assassin baseflop is not good enough
Snkaeyes is a MARTIAL ninja. Likely a rogue, ranger, or some multiclass/hybrid of the two; or possibly one of those multiclassed/hybrided with a monk.
I support a Summon Giant Frog class. No other abilities. Just a giant frog.
His main opponent? The Giant Enemy Crab Conjurer class.
I support a Summon Giant Frog class. No other abilities. Just a giant frog.His main opponent? The Giant Enemy Crab Conjurer class.
Alright, but only if we can also get a class with Summon Bigger Fish.
I support a Summon Giant Frog class. No other abilities. Just a giant frog.His main opponent? The Giant Enemy Crab Conjurer class.
Alright, but only if we can also get a class with Summon Bigger Fish.
That's a paragon ability at least :p