We saw the monk already and for the most part it still feels pretty martial to me, its in my opinion even less Supernatural than the previous editions Monk, yet it has a psionic power source, oh well.. Thats not the focus of this thread, lets talk about that on a monk thread somewhere else, its been seen, its been discussed moving on.
Psionic Warrior, or Psychic Warrior, Defender. I'm really hoping that its Secondary is Striker for one of its builds and Controller for the other. I really would like for this to be a mix of lightly armored warrior similar to a Swordmage in that it gets a bonus to AC from some class feature like Interial Armor that gets a increase per tier.
I really would like it to be very cerebral in terms of marking, using something like a Jedi mind tricks to get the attention of enemies and mark them, and prehaps sending some kind of telekinetic push/pull effect if a enemy within range tries to attack ally after you mark it, preferably as a Immediate Interrupt. Sure it sounds powerful but with the automatically built in limitation of being able to do it only once per round without a paragon or epic feat/path sounds fair to me.
Power wise I'm not expecting a lot of flashy energy beams and so on, I full hope that is psion terriorty, but a lot of powerful psionically enhanced strikes, and push/pull effects.
I haven't played a primary Controller so as far as Psions go, I don't know what to suggest here. Maybe others might have some thoughts/ideas of how it might be unqiue from other controllers.
Psionic Leader, I hope its a Telepath really, I really think it could work with tht discipline above all others, the second best one would probably be Seers ?I forget the other name used to describe it. Both have similarities in my opinion with other leader types, the Telepath with that of the warlord in terms of how it might direct allies and provided bonuses/aid and the Seer with the Prescience Bard. Except in the case of the Psionic Leaders, a secondary role of controller might be cool.
With things like Heart Chakra release for healing, and other Chakra center related powers to offer verious bonuses, this could be one of the most fun classes to play in my opinion.
Psion (Psionic Controller):
Key Abilities: Charisma, Intelligence, Constitution(or Wisdom)
The basic psionic enchanter class. I see the Psion focusing on two builds: the Telepath and the Kineticist. The telepath will be the mind control specialist who inflicts psychic damage and conditions on his enemies, with some powers that take control of the enemy and use their abilities against them. The kineticist will be the psionic "blaster", who focuses mainly on push/pull/shift abilities and force damage, moving enemies around with telekinetic force. They might also have a few fire and lightning powers representing the pyrokineticist types, but fireballs and energy beams are more of a wizard thing.
The psion should also have some cantrip-like abilities that represent minor psychic powers like telekinesis or telepathic communication.
Empath (Psionic Leader):
Key Abilities: Charisma, Wisdom, Dexterity
The empath may draw more from the 'seer' archetype of psionics, being able to predict and influence enemy movements as well as the actions of his allies. There might be a bunch of powers that let the empath reroll attacks with a bonus, representing precognitive knowledge of enemy actions. He may also be able to influence the emotions of his allies and enemies, inspiring greater effort or a reckless rage that causes them to make fatal errors.
Mindblade (Psionic Defender):
Key Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence(or Charisma)
Combines aspects of the psychic warrior with the soulknife. The "psychic blade" may be available as a feat, or as a class feature that lets them use their implement as a weapon. Marks enemies by clouding their minds so that he's the only visible target. Probably won't have a lot of body-morphing powers (that's more of a primal shtick), focusing instead on a mix of precognitive strikes, psionic focus, and a few telekinetic push/pull powers. May resemble a fantasy version of a Jedi.
Either way, the Psionic Defender class probably won't be called "Psychic Warrior", since the name's a bit clunky. "Warmind" and "Ardent" are possible alternate names.
One possible prediction is that psionic classes (with the exception of the monk) will use Charisma as a common stat, much like a lot of arcane classes use Intelligence and divine classes use Wisdom.
1) Auras that can bolster allies or weaken foes.
2) Mind-over-matter effects that allow for armor penetration, resistances, and benefits to Str/Dex/Con based checks.
3) Telepathy abilities that allow mind-to-mind communication, domination, charm, and creating illusions in the target's mind.
4) Trances that can improve healing, levitate, and purge poisons/diseases.
5) Rituals that allow for compulsory-truthful mind reading (like a Vulcan Mind Meld), Astral Projection, Dream Walking, Psychic Surgery, etc.
I want Wisdom as the Main Stat for the Psion with Charisma (Telepath build) and Dexterity (Kinetic build) as secondary.
I like most of that, but I'd go with Con/Str for the tertiary ability, to facilitate the mind-over-matter stuff like firewalking and bursting restraints.
I don't want to see psionic classes deal any elemental damage beyond psychic or force. Psions don't conjure the elements, they unleash the strength of the mind. Push, pull, slide, knock prone, etc, are fine and thematic, but no fire, no ice, no lightning. Those things are not psionic.
I disagree on fire. Pyrokinesis is a pretty 'standard' psychic power.
I disagree on fire. Pyrokinesis is a pretty 'standard' psychic power.
Yeah I agree on the pyro but no cold, poison, acid or thunder.
"Firestarter" is a good example.
Id like to see the seer as the psionic leader using predictions and foresight to guide people in the right direction. Could be kinda cool.
I don't want to see psionic classes deal any elemental damage beyond psychic or force. Psions don't conjure the elements, they unleash the strength of the mind. Push, pull, slide, knock prone, etc, are fine and thematic, but no fire, no ice, no lightning. Those things are not psionic.
I disagree with the elements thing, partially. Fire? Yes. Cold? Yes. Lightning? Yes. Radiant? Perhaps. Thunder, poison, acid? No, no, no.
Fire: Pyrokinesis. Agitating molecules, including air, until the catch fire, is a long-standing mind-over-matter tradition. The reverse, slowing down molecules, is a logical extension and one seen from time to time in fiction of the mind-over-matter genre. Lightning, in this case, is nothing more than harnessing the electrical impulses that actually exist within our bodies, and focusing them to deadly effect. I see nothing wrong with the occasional foray into these three effects. I do agree that force and psychic damage should, by far, be the most common for the power source, in addition to weapons (where you are using psionic power to enhance your own physical capabilities rather than directly affecting others).
Acid and poison? Psionics shouldn't actually physically alter what the body is capable of, merely enhance. Only certain race-specific feat and Paragon Paths should allow for this (i.e., Dragonborn feats and PPs that allow such a character with either acid or poison breath to expand that capability psionically). Thunder? No need, as force more accurately covers any potential mechanism. Thunder, in the D&D context, is more metaphysical than physical, as it is specifically a force effect coming from a storm. Really, the thunder keyword shouldn't exist, and force should exist in its place, IMHO.
Likewise, teleportation should no longer exist within the sphere of psionics. Maybe...maaaaybe at the top end, the occasional warping of time/space with your mind should be possible. But I'd rather simply leave that sort of mechanic to the magical classes. Increased speed, jumping, flight, climb, et al? Absolutely.
Now, as for the OP:
I'd like to see psionics in general have a heavy emphasis on control as a secondary trait across the board.
Psion: The psionic controller. I'd like to see leader as a secondary, with little in the way of heals, and a greater focus on buffing the party in terms of leader qualities. I'd prefer this class have less raw damage than existing controllers, and an overall more potent foray into status effects and other control mechanics. I'd love to see a controller class with less AoE options in general, but significantly more robust single-target powers. I'd have significantly less zones and conjurations, but significantly more effects that last for a given time frame, or require a save to end.
Empath: The psionic leader. Controller as a secondary. This class should be all about redirection of effects in various ways. Splitting damage and effects amongst the party in favorable ways, splitting damage and effects amongst the enemy in favorable ways, the ability to shift heals and surges around the party as necessary, and great buffs for the party. I'd love to see auras as a mechanical focus rather than zones, conjurations, turn or encounter long single target effects, and so on.
Monk: We have a significant portion of this class already, and overall I like it. Striker primary, control secondary, tons of movement options, etc.
Ardent?: Whatever the psionic defender ends up named, I'd like to see it focus more heavily than any other defender on controlling, including pulls, pushes, slides, etc. Think a jedi, bouncing around, protecting allies, shoving, lifting, throwing, tripping, slowing down, and otherwise making life hell for the opposition. If a marked target tries to get away or strike someone other than the defender, it would be neat if said defender can knock them down, or slide them around, or pull them right back to the defender, etc.
I'd like to seea second striker in vain of a soul knife.
Other than the mindblade is there really enough left to distinguish a soulknife and a monk. Maybe so in previous editions, but it seems to me that now in 4e there really isn't. An alternate class feature that replaces the monks unarmed combatant class feature with the ability to generate a chosen weapon out of psionic energy would seem to cover most of the difference, and the rest can be handled through power selection.
Thunder? No need, as force more accurately covers any potential mechanism. Thunder, in the D&D context, is more metaphysical than physical, as it is specifically a force effect coming from a storm. Really, the thunder keyword shouldn't exist, and force should exist in its place, IMHO.
I agree with you about acid and poison, but you've missed something about thunder. It's not just force with a storm flavor. Thunder is sonic damage. This is why bards have a fair number of thunder powers. I've seen enough fictional psychics whose powers involved creating sonic resonance to demolish targets that I feel their could be some place for thunder in the psionic power source.
Cold too, as its just the opposite of fire. using mental powers to freeze metal to break it is a trope of such things.
Acid yes, actually, forget name of 2nd ed Psi ability, let you secrete sweat as acid.
SO to me, ti's the IDEA of hwo it works, that's important, and what 3.5 Expanded Psionics broke a fair bit, giving too much raw damage by elements, to psions.
4th ed works much better as it allows slides, pulls and pushes which is what you'd expect, be it by force, or mentally manipulating the target.
Mind Blades should be strikers, Psychic Warriors should be Defenders, IMHO
MindBlades are the ones who's have psi weapons of various energy types. More about damage, phasing/teleport and flanking etc.
Monks more about jump, fast movement and moving the target.
To a degree, I understood some of the items to a degree - the idea of crystals resonating in a way that lets psions store things in them and all - but the overall product was just way too many unnecessary items what were more "magic items but not."
I agree with you about acid and poison, but you've missed something about thunder. It's not just force with a storm flavor. Thunder is sonic damage. This is why bards have a fair number of thunder powers. I've seen enough fictional psychics whose powers involved creating sonic resonance to demolish targets that I feel their could be some place for thunder in the psionic power source.
I suppose that is a valid point. I forgot all about the whole thunder = sound aspect of the keyword. Which, really, is why it should have been called sonic, and not thunder. Thunder makes sense as a subset of sonic, but sonic does not make sense as a subset of thunder.
Acid yes, actually, forget name of 2nd ed Psi ability, let you secrete sweat as acid.
I understand that it's a legacy thing. However, to me, it's a bit of legacy content that is unnecessary. It is a radical physiological change that, while somewhat flavorful, also makes little sense once you stop to think about it for a moment. Why would you suddenly start secreting out of your flesh materials that can destroy said flesh? The same goes for poison. You'd have to both make yourself immune to the substances in question, create entirely new organs, and otherwise radically alter the way your body functions in a fundamental way. It is the exact same reason I loathe the ability to alter parts of your body into animal forms, or turn parts of your body to metal, etc. That, to me, clearly falls within the realm of magic, not mind-over-matter.
What about "force lightning?"
You will note I didn't mention lightning as I also thought of the force lighting. :D
I will take Palpatine anyday over Vader and Boba Fett!
I understand that it's a legacy thing. However, to me, it's a bit of legacy content that is unnecessary. It is a radical physiological change that, while somewhat flavorful, also makes little sense once you stop to think about it for a moment. Why would you suddenly start secreting out of your flesh materials that can destroy said flesh? The same goes for poison. You'd have to both make yourself immune to the substances in question, create entirely new organs, and otherwise radically alter the way your body functions in a fundamental way. It is the exact same reason I loathe the ability to alter parts of your body into animal forms, or turn parts of your body to metal, etc. That, to me, clearly falls within the realm of magic, not mind-over-matter.
i think i just explained how psionic acid can work
Flavour wise: I am hoping that at least some of the Classes retain the Pseudoscience flavour from the previous edition. Keeping the terminology and ideas like Pyschometabolism, Telepathy, all that jazz. It is one of my favourite aspects of Psionics that it doesn't simply appear as another type of magic and the flavour helps in this. I also like Pseudoscience in general, especially in my fantasy.
Mindblades for EVERYONE!: Instead of being a separate class it would be either a Paragon Path, Feat-tree or some such. It would enable the PC to generate mindblades for him/herself in the manner of their proficient weapons. The mindblade would be usable with all Psionic Powers (so the Monk could use for example mindblade Shurikens for more range with its Powers). It could have additional effects either by itself or later feats.
Specific Aspect for Each Class: So stuff like the Psion having the majority of Telekenesis or the Empath having the majority of Telepathic abilities. With some cross-classing in some places but generally if a person goes, "I want to use this kind of ability" a certain class will pop-up as being that one.
Psionic Rituals: These could take various forms from Astral Projection, to being a Seer, etc. Perhaps even having a long-lasting Psionic Combat ritual (will detail more below).
Psionic Combat that Involves Everyone: While the concept was cool. I felt it made the rest of the party wait or feel uninvolved. As such if it was brought back should have a more inclusive feel. Could be done by being usable only in real combat and it gives bonuses to the party engaging in normal combat. Or you can take the whole party along in your mind on these combats.
Disciplined or Non-Disciplined: One aspect of psychic powers that gets played up a lot is the difference between a disciplined mind (non-freaking out Jean Grey) and a non-disciplined mind (freaking out Carrie). It be neat to see something like this carried over in Psionics. So say a disciplined mind could have more specific damage or effects, and undisciplined perhaps a more wide-ranging effect (you push everyone instead of one).
Keywords that Make Sense: This was already covered with the discussion on what elemental stuff makes sense.
Psionic Races: While not directly tied too the classes. I hope we see a large grouping of Psionic races. My personal favourite being the Elan.
I disagree on fire. Pyrokinesis is a pretty 'standard' psychic power.
I feel Pyrokinesis is too pseudosciencey for fantasy psionics. How do you 'excite the molecules' in a magic setting? Are there molecules at all? And if you can 'vibrate the molecules' to produce heat, why can't you do the opposite to do cold? Why can't you manipulate the electrons to do lightning?
Better to just nip the whole thing in the bud. Otherwise you're just a wizard in a different hat.
I feel Pyrokinesis is too pseudosciencey for fantasy psionics. How do you 'excite the molecules' in a magic setting? Are there molecules at all? And if you can 'vibrate the molecules' to produce heat, why can't you do the opposite to do cold? Why can't you manipulate the electrons to do lightning?
Better to just nip the whole thing in the bud. Otherwise you're just a wizard in a different hat.
In a fantasy philosophy, pyrokinesis is a matter of using one's burning passion to enhance the fire naturally present in all things (all things are made up of a balance of all 4 elements) so that it's able to overcome and consume the other elements.
This is why pyros are often passionate and unstable.
Fire and Cold are both just as standard Kinesis powers as telekinesis. You can not have one without the other two, because they are all variations of the same ability, movement of matter.
Hell look at Thermokinesis which is entirely based around the idea of decreasing or increasing the ambient temperature around something to cause fire or freezing.
i think i just explained how psionic acid can work
The only reason the acids in your body don't destroy other parts of your body is due to highly specialized cells that keep those fluids from seeping into any other part of your body. If you made your bile, or stomach acid, et al, seep from your body, you will horrifically poison yourself and destroy massive numbers of living cells in your body with extreme swiftness. You would quite literally need to radically change your entire physiology to make your body immune to the effects of its own toxic substances.
Pyrokinesis and cryokinesis, on the other hand, involve agitating or slowing down external regions around you. You don't make yourself immune to fire or cold in the process, and you don't alter your own physiology in any way.
Lightning can be nothing more than psionically aligning opposing charges in different areas, in a similar manner as agitating molecules, such that an electrical burst jumps from one to the other, grounding on any objects in the way. Or, it could be building up a charge with the electricity that does flow in your body, then discharging it. With the latter option, I would actually prefer if you do deal some damage to yourself, as that is rather dangerous.
Just saying. I simply don't see exuding your own acids and toxins from your body as being something that falls under the purview of mind-over-matter. It's my opinion, of course. But there you have it.
Stogoe: Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
I think Stogoe's point was that psionics in a fantasy setting should have a more alchemical or mystical philosophy than the pseudoscience which is currently used to justify it.
Stogoe: Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
I think that should be up to the player and how he chooses to visualize his character, myself.
It may bear noting that the Monk already indicates that WotC is going to have psionics dance over most of the damage keywords, since I recall the monk having fire, thunder, poison, and force powers so far.
How cool that would be.
Also, I expect the psion to be Int-based. There is only one other Int-primary class, and yet several wis- and cha- primary classes.
Also, I expect the psion to be Int-based. There is only one other Int-primary class, and yet several wis- and cha- primary classes.
Only one Int class?
Wizard
Swordmage
Artificer
1 + 1 + 1 = 1?
Also, I expect the psion to be Int-based. There is only one other Int-primary class, and yet several wis- and cha- primary classes.
Wizard, Swordmage and Artificer are all Int-primary classes. Just sayin'. That doesn't mean Psions won't be, however.
ETA: Sarnath'd
The only reason the acids in your body don't destroy other parts of your body is due to highly specialized cells that keep those fluids from seeping into any other part of your body. If you made your bile, or stomach acid, et al, seep from your body, you will horrifically poison yourself and destroy massive numbers of living cells in your body with extreme swiftness. You would quite literally need to radically change your entire physiology to make your body immune to the effects of its own toxic substances.
Which is exactly what I was saying in how a psion or other psionic character can cause these damage types in other creatures by altering their physiology. This was one of the concepts being psychometobolism in 3.5 psionics.
Which is exactly what I was saying in how a psion or other psionic character can cause these damage types in other creatures by altering their physiology. This was one of the concepts being psychometobolism in 3.5 psionics.
*Nods* Heck in some regards you could even call basic pyrokinesis as such. Since it is based around causing the molecules in something (so heating up the molecules in a human for instance) to heat up through movement/vibration till bursting into flames.
Wizard, Swordmage and Artificer are all Int-primary classes. Just sayin'. That doesn't mean Psions won't be, however.
ETA: Sarnath'd
I overlooked the setting-specific classes, since I have nothing to do with 'em.
My bad.
I feel Pyrokinesis is too pseudosciencey for fantasy psionics. How do you 'excite the molecules' in a magic setting? Are there molecules at all? And if you can 'vibrate the molecules' to produce heat, why can't you do the opposite to do cold? Why can't you manipulate the electrons to do lightning?
Better to just nip the whole thing in the bud. Otherwise you're just a wizard in a different hat.
This ^^^
I understand that there is precedent for thermokinesis and force lightning and all of that, but I really think you're starting to step onto other classes' toes then. This is similar to the argument that 4e wizards suck because they can't do everything that 3e wizards could. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean it should be done again. And this is D&D. In a modern game with no magic, I wouldn't mind exciting molecules or altering chemical properties and increasing adrenaline flow and whatnot, but this is a fantasy setting, leave all the pseudoscience powers at the door please.
I'd rather see psionics incorporate chakras, mind over matter self buffs, seer/empath-like buffs/debuffs to others, force damage, lots of charms and psychic damage powers. If the devs feel that they absolutely must incorporate other stuff, like fire and lightning and such, I would prefer that it was at least put off until paragon tier.
Which is exactly what I was saying in how a psion or other psionic character can cause these damage types in other creatures by altering their physiology. This was one of the concepts being psychometobolism in 3.5 psionics.
Yes, and on the whole, I found psychometabolism to be an asinine and ridiculous bit of tripe. :D Actually altering the make-up of the cells in your body, such that they are suddenly immune to substances like acids and poisons? Or worse, able to stretch your arms and legs? Or, worse still, altering them into other species entirely, such that you now have actual tiger claws, etc? Worst of all, actually merging a weapon or other item with your body, like joining a sword to your arm? Ugh.
All of that is neat, conceptually. Just...not for psionic, mind-over-matter effects. Magic? Oh, absolutely. Psionics? No thanks. Altering your heartbeat somewhat, increasing your visual acuity, speeding up your motions and reflexes, jumping further, increasing your strength somewhat, or otherwise increasing your existing physical abilities, are all apropos in my opinion. The bulk of the psychometabolic discipline? Uh-uh.
I suppose that is a valid point. I forgot all about the whole thunder = sound aspect of the keyword. Which, really, is why it should have been called sonic, and not thunder. Thunder makes sense as a subset of sonic, but sonic does not make sense as a subset of thunder.
I think the idea was to get away from scientific sounding terms and use terms that sound more suitable to a fantasy setting. It's the same reason that 3E's eclectic damage became 4E's lightning damage.
Yes, and on the whole, I found psychometabolism to be an asinine and ridiculous bit of tripe. :D Actually altering the make-up of the cells in your body, such that they are suddenly immune to substances like acids and poisons? Or worse, able to stretch your arms and legs? Or, worse still, altering them into other species entirely, such that you now have actual tiger claws, etc? Worst of all, actually merging a weapon or other item with your body, like joining a sword to your arm? Ugh.
All of that is neat, conceptually. Just...not for psionic, mind-over-matter effects. Magic? Oh, absolutely. Psionics? No thanks.
Eh, it has precedence in other systems/settings besides DnD. White Wolf's Aeon/Trinity line had psychometabolists too (though you could argue they ripped it from DnD), Dhalsim from Street Fighter (come on, you know all that stretching is psychometabolism! :D ).
Eh, it has precedence in other systems/settings besides DnD. White Wolf's Aeon/Trinity line had psychometabolists too (though you could argue they ripped it from DnD).
Yes, quite so in terms of ripping D&D off. Outside of a small subset of D&D lore, and copped lore for other games afterwards there is basically no connection to psionic/psychic powers acting this way that I've seen. Making something appear different in such a manner, sure. For example, in the Pleistocene Exile series by Julian May, some of the "metapsychics" pulled illusions over themselves, making themselves appear to change into ferocious beasts. However, they didn't actually change form whatsoever, nor did anyone else in that, or any other non-D&D psychic-related series I've read.
Dhalsim from Street Fighter (come on, you know all that stretching is psychometabolism! :D ).
I've always seen Dhalsim as a practitioner of Indian mysticism, not psionics.
It may bear noting that the Monk already indicates that WotC is going to have psionics dance over most of the damage keywords, since I recall the monk having fire, thunder, poison, and force powers so far.
Well poo. I really hope elemental summoning is quarantined in the "We're not going to call it Ki" striker. I absolutely hate Psionic Wizard Syndrome, and if it comes back I'll be really disappointed.
Everyone who's equating Telekinesis to Thermo/Cryo/Pyro-kinesis is just falling into the pseudo-science trap. You can go all pseudo-sciencey with psionics, but I think it's a terrible mistake for psions to throw fireballs. Why not just make it a Wizard, then?
Everyone who's equating Telekinesis to Thermo/Cryo/Pyro-kinesis is just falling into the pseudo-science trap. You can go all pseudo-sciencey with psionics, but I think it's a terrible mistake for psions to throw fireballs. Why not just make it a Wizard, then?
Because it does its stuff differently than a wizard. Different implements, no spellbook, different flavor.
Well poo. I really hope elemental summoning is quarantined in the "We're not going to call it Ki" striker. I absolutely hate Psionic Wizard Syndrome, and if it comes back I'll be really disappointed.
Everyone who's equating Telekinesis to Thermo/Cryo/Pyro-kinesis is just falling into the pseudo-science trap. You can go all pseudo-sciencey with psionics, but I think it's a terrible mistake for psions to throw fireballs. Why not just make it a Wizard, then?
The entire concept of psionics is pseudo science. There is no one or the other. If you accept psionics, you have to accept that it's going to be pseudo-science. Anything else is an exercise in futility. It's not a trap, it's a foundation.
And arguing that Wizards, or arcanists should have exclusive province to specific energy types is the trap. It's the same trap that people fall into when arguing against the existence of this or that power source, a trap that limits the game and creativity.
I postulated a philosophy about pyrokinesis that is more in line with alchemy than modern science.
Theory: The psion uses her passions to enrage the element of fire, which is contained in all things (in balance with the other 3 elements), so that it grows and consumes the others.
Is that pseudo-science, alchemy, or mysticism; because it's close enough to all three that I really can't tell?
I've always seen Dhalsim as a practitioner of Indian mysticism, not psionics.
Seeing as much of what constitutes modern psionics was originally based on American/European interpretations of Indian mysticism so there is something of a fine line as to where one begins and the other ends. As much as I hate to admit it this is part of why the Ki power source failed.
So yeah, I pretty much disagree with everybody.
In all honesty, the number one thing I will be glad to see go away with regard to psionics is the stupid auditory, visual, olfactory, fx that accompanied all psionic powers. I don't even know why they tacked that crap on to begin with; it didn't even provide any pairty with a wizard's hand-gestures and vocalizations.
And psions were a lot less powerful than wizards, so it balanced out.
I'm actually hoping they go all 1/2E on it and make it pseudosciencey to the max, with all the Sciences and Disciplines of the old Psionics Handbooks. On the other hand, I hope they ditch the New Age/Eastern Mysticism/Crystalfetish crap they started cutting it with in 3E+. If I wanted to hang out in Arizona with a bunch o' hippies and "feel the energy" I'd go do that.
So yeah, I pretty much disagree with everybody.
Not me! In my first post, the first thing I brought up was the hope to see the flavour be all Pseudoscience oriented.
And psions were a lot less powerful than wizards, so it balanced out.
True, but I'll be glad to be able to read someone's mind without humming like a bass-chord or filling the air with the scent of lilacs, or emitng a rainbow burst of color. Man that crap was stupid.
And fyi folks, Open Grave book, official 4th ed, Brain In The Jar has "Mind Thrust" power, well it's called that in the combat notes, but the power description says "Mind Stab", and it also has "Telekinetic Thrust"
So for a possible comparison, Mind Stab/Thrust:
Mind Stab (Standard, at-will) Psychic
Close burst 4; +10 Will; 1d6+6 psychic damage, target takes a -2 penalty to Will (save ends)
I'd personally guess, the PC version would be single target?
Telekinetic Thrust (Minor, at-will)
Ranged 6; +9 vs Fortitude; the target is pushed 4 squares, and if the target ends the push adjacent to a wall, it is knocked prone.
so, that certainly sounds interesting
I'd imagine a PC version of Telekinetic thrust would also do damage = relavant stat modifier?
If anything, I think the Psionic Defender (I'd just call it a SoulKnife 'cause it sounds cooler than "Psychic Warrior") should have Con primary, if for no other reason than it would form a good synergy with the other defenders such as Earthstrength Wardens and Ensnaring/Shielding Swordmages. Also, it would help you as a Defender since you'd naturally have high HP and lots of surges.
Mindblades for EVERYONE!: Instead of being a separate class it would be either a Paragon Path, Feat-tree or some such. It would enable the PC to generate mindblades for him/herself in the manner of their proficient weapons. The mindblade would be usable with all Psionic Powers (so the Monk could use for example mindblade Shurikens for more range with its Powers). It could have additional effects either by itself or later feats.
Mindblade: You can manifest a chosen weapon from the power of your soul.
Choose a weapon- you can choose to draw that weapon as a minor action, even if you do not have it on you- it appeares as a glowing aura in the shape of the weapon. Though your mindblade cannot be enchanted, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage (+2 at level 6, +3 at level 11, ect) and +1d8 critical damage (2d8 at level 6, 3d8 at level 11, ect)
Mindblade: You can manifest a chosen weapon from the power of your soul.
Choose a weapon- you can choose to draw that weapon as a minor action, even if you do not have it on you- it appeares as a glowing aura in the shape of the weapon. Though your mindblade cannot be enchanted, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage (+2 at level 6, +3 at level 11, ect) and +1d8 critical damage (2d8 at level 6, 3d8 at level 11, ect)
*Nods* Exactly what I was thinking of. Though mind instead of soul ;) :P
I would also add in that definition though emphasize that it can be used as a Implement or Weapon for Psionic Disciplines. I would definitely like to see further feats expanding on it and make it even more interesting. One of those Fighting Styles type Multiclass Feat deals would work well with it I think.
Telepath: Mind control and enchantment will definitely be a large part of the psion's repertoire. They mentioned that wizards had their enchantments reduced in scope to make the psionic classes more unique.
Kineticist: Telekinesis is another classic psychic ability, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't represented by some of the psion's abilities. This will mostly involve force damage (with a few fire or lightning powers involving spontaneous combustion and such), leaving the fireballs and explosions to the wizards.
Seer: Divination and precognition are also abilities that fit well with the psion's "mind over matter" theme. More powerful predictions will probably be the domain of rituals, but there might be a number of powers that give bonuses to defenses or rerolls based on predicting the enemy's next move.
Shaper: Metacreativity may or may not make the cut. Psychic powers aren't really known for their summoning abilities outside of D&D. If it does appear, it may eschew the whole "crystals and ectoplasm" flavor in favor of something based on dreams. Manifesting one's dreams and nightmares in the real world could be an interesting basis for psionic summoning, and may be a possible third build (after Telepath and Kineticist) for the psion in Psionic Power.
Nomad: Astral projection will probably be covered by rituals. Other than that, I don't see much in the way of psionic teleportation (perhaps the psionic defender may have a few powers in this vein).
Egoist: Psychometabolism seems to involve a lot of shapeshifting, and as such steps on the toes of the primal classes. Its powers may be ported to one of the new primal classes in PHB3, but it's a bit harder to justify as a psionic thing.
Mindblade: You can manifest a chosen weapon from the power of your soul.
Choose a weapon- you can choose to draw that weapon as a minor action, even if you do not have it on you- it appeares as a glowing aura in the shape of the weapon. Though your mindblade cannot be enchanted, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage (+2 at level 6, +3 at level 11, ect) and +1d8 critical damage (2d8 at level 6, 3d8 at level 11, ect)
Not bad. The no enchantment thing is no good though. It gives the PC a free magic weapon, worse still though the weapon will be rather bland as it won't be able to carry any properties or powers.
I prefer my version (draft version follows).
[INDENT]SOULBLADE (alternate class feature)
You channel your inner power in order to manifest a weapon made of pure psionic energy. Choose any simple or military weapon, as a minor action you manifest the chosen weapon. You are proficient with your soulblade and it counts as a weapon of the selected type for the purposes of feats and other abilities. If you are disarmed or choose to drop this weapon it disappears, but you may manifest it again as a minor action. Feats or other abilities that modify the action a character uses to draw a weapon also effect a characters ability to manifest their soulblade.
This class feature replaces the monk's unarmed combatant class feature and the weapon manifested counts as a monk weapon. The soulblade can be enchanted in the same manner as a monk's unarmed strike.[/INDENT]
I also would allow characters to as a feat gain the ability to manifest an additional type of weapon (including superior weapons), using a minor action to change their weapon's shape. Another feat would allow characters to manifest a second soulblade, alowing them to dual wield.
Non-monks who want a souldblade should take the same route as non-monks that want to be effective unarmed combatants, MULTICLASS. It seems likely that at least one version of the base multiclass feat for monks will grant the unarmed combatant class feature, so granting this replacement feature instead would be entirely reasonable.
In a fantasy philosophy, pyrokinesis is a matter of using one's burning passion to enhance the fire naturally present in all things (all things are made up of a balance of all 4 elements) so that it's able to overcome and consume the other elements.
This is why pyros are often passionate and unstable.
Screw that. I want my Psion to master the element of Hydrogen.
In a fantasy philosophy, pyrokinesis is a matter of using one's burning passion to enhance the fire naturally present in all things (all things are made up of a balance of all 4 elements) so that it's able to overcome and consume the other elements.
This is why pyros are often passionate and unstable.
If we want words to mean things, this sits squarely in the Elemental power source.
Look, I know that Carrie and Firestarter popularized pyrokinesis, but I really feel that elemental manipulation has no place in a D&D psionic power source. When there's only psionics in a setting, you can have all sorts of magic powers. With Arcane and Primal and Elemental in the mix, something has to give, or there's no point in having different power sources at all.
Separation of flavor makes power sources worth having.
If we want words to mean things, this sits squarely in the Elemental power source.
Look, I know that Carrie and Firestarter popularized pyrokinesis, but I really feel that elemental manipulation has no place in a D&D psionic power source. When there's only psionics in a setting, you can have all sorts of magic powers. With Arcane and Primal and Elemental in the mix, something has to give, or there's no point in having different power sources at all.
Separation of flavor makes power sources worth having.
Arcane, Divine, and Primal all have plenty of powers that deal fire damage.
While I would agree that an entire class or build path based around pyrokinesis would be a bit much, having a couple of fire powers (out of hundreds) where your anger is literally burning the enemy up isn't going to make psionic characters feel like into elementalists or arcanists.
How that could be represented mechanically I am dunno. Perhaps the manner of defence be different (easier to circumnavigate any defences since it appears on target without any means to dodge). Perhaps it takes time for the damage to build up. Something.
That said, I hope there are only one or two powers that deal elemental damage. Instead there should be a feat/paragon path that allows psionic characters to add elemental damage types to thier powers.
Thematically, they're re-writing the universe to suit thier own desires. Energy/physics doesn't come into it.
But Poison and Acid should be avioded like the plague.
Look, I know that Carrie and Firestarter popularized pyrokinesis, but I really feel that elemental manipulation has no place in a D&D psionic power source. When there's only psionics in a setting, you can have all sorts of magic powers. With Arcane and Primal and Elemental in the mix, something has to give, or there's no point in having different power sources at all.
Let's take a look at monk powers there's Masterful Spiral (force), Twin Thunders (thunder), Deadly Cobra Strike (poison), Twilight Touch (psychic), Way of the Winter Wind (cold, quarter circle backwards + kick to execute), Ring the Golden Bell (force), Steps of Grasping Fire (fire), Rising Dragon Fire (fire), Fist of Golden Fire (radiant, what? it doesn't use the element in the power name). Not to mention a paragon path that uses a bunch of radiant powers and another that has a necrotic power.
That's an example of half of one psionic class, and it probably has the least amount of damage keyword powers as far as all the psionic classes go.
Let's take a look at monk powers there's Masterful Spiral (force), Twin Thunders (thunder), Deadly Cobra Strike (poison), Twilight Touch (psychic), Way of the Winter Wind (cold, quarter circle backwards + kick to execute), Ring the Golden Bell (force), Steps of Grasping Fire (fire), Rising Dragon Fire (fire), Fist of Golden Fire (radiant, what? it doesn't use the element in the power name). Not to mention a paragon path that uses a bunch of radiant powers and another that has a necrotic power.
That's an example of half of one psionic class, and it probably has the least amount of damage keyword powers as far as all the psionic classes go.
Yes but I think we are mostly talking about the classes that were originally psionic. In my opinion I do not want to see most of those damage types in psionics this time but I probably will, and I will probably see alot of them. I also think that the disiplines will all make a an appearance as class features that could be choosen from in one way or another. I also think that we will see a comeback of auras (from complete psionic and probably the only good thing that came of it) and I think we will also so that psionic focus is going to be gone. I am about 50/50 about wether or not crystals are going to be gone or not and honestly I don't know if I want them gone. I hope astral construct makes a comeback as the psions summons (hopefully they will try and keep the versitility). I do not recall all the names of the disiplines but here is what I think each role will get. And I think there is going to be a second psionic striker 1 more divine class and primal class and hybrid as the eighth class (that is if there are going to be eight classes in the book and if there are not I think we will probably see just more options for those 2 classes).
Here goes by role.
leader- auras thats a definite in my book. Based upon the aura I think we will see a disipline or part of a disipline. One that would make for a secondary controller and the other for a striker. Probably part of seer and the other for movement (psycorpation?) we might see some (not alot) temporary mind control.
Defender- I think we will see that this will either consume the soulknife and psychic warior or just psychic warrior. I think that all other roles will be possible and I hope it is all three. I think we will see this with more temporary self buffs and healing (all having to do with one disipline or another) mostly having to do with putting the body processes in over drive. Hopefully we don't see body shape changing because that would step on the toes of our primal friends.
Controller- I think we will see alot of movement of enemy powers, mind control powers. I can't say what type of damages these will do but I have a feeling that it will be all damage types. Secondaries are of course leader or striker.
second striker - I do not think the monk will be the only striker. I think there will be a ranged striker. I just have a feeling because the monk was not originally a psionic class.
Last note. i think we may see (but I hope not and I hope it isn't likely) that psionics has consumed another power source that was not that popular in 3.X I am talking about incarnuum. If so Many of my predictions will not be quite the same.
I am probably completely wrong so don't take this as anything but a fan hoping. Above all I hope that those psionic haters out there will become fans and that the designers will do psionics justice even if the haters still hate.
I also hope that there will be a feat that would make my warforged into a psi-forged and I hope that I can make a defender that will be similair (not exact of course or else I would just play my fighter) to my warforged battlerager fighter but psionic.
I am about 50/50 about wether or not crystals are going to be gone or not and honestly I don't know if I want them gone.
Crystals seem highly likely. Every caster class needs an implement and crystals seem an ideal choice for most psionic classes.
I hope astral construct makes a comeback as the psions summons (hopefully they will try and keep the versitility).
Agreed. Though they might need a new name now that the astral plain is associated as the home of the gods (thus strongly linked to the divine power source). Versatility will probably be retained somewhat, in that each summoning power will summon a different type of construct, however, the template style versatility of 3E is unlikely to return.
2nd edition could have been better, psionics should be like 2nd ed psi updated for 4ed, but there are aspects of the whole random power mix thing that I don't like.
I think a telekinetic character could be played as a form of specialist:
kleptokinetic- using fine manipulation telekinesis for thievery and precise attacks that require balance to make the strike succesfull, like telekinetically hurling arrows. no control, and the target is annoyed by falling sticks.
vs.
Teker- The all time most powerfull telekinetic character of the game. Powers that wont be "spells is drag". should a teker specialist have a power that acts on it's own like "unseen servant"? nope. not in my opinion. This is the teker that slams, shoves, and pushes with telekinetic might! as well as levitates...
vs.
pyrokinetic- the energy of the mind used to start fires. throw fireballs? never! Stare hard enough to give you blisters? yup. but that is for beginers. all that flame shaping, flame feeding, flame bursting, that comes with higher levels.
vs.
Whirlwind/manglerknight- You use telekinetic powers on yourself to perform impossible feats of athletics and accrobatics... as well as turning your aura into invisible armor to block some attacks or help reduce damage. while this may create a kind of psi accrobat, it isn't the only aplication for self focussed pk. The manglerknight wields a weapon as big as herself and it almost weighs just as much... yet somehow, the manglerknight can wield it in combat with ease. somehow altering their grip, balance and momentum for unbelievable strikes.
So should a teker be able to read minds? not really. should a teker be able to grab your heart with a shadowy bolt of necrotic energy? DEFINATELY NOT.
meditation as an implement yes, some folks will want crystals and "dreaming stones" from the dream realm. that is fine. but a psionic character shouln't be forced to carry a crystal ball, a deck of tarokka cards, and be a "vistani" (*although a psychic race that looks human would be cool.)
the whole "genderless insectoid" is just way wrong a concept for D&d, imho.
Auras as a supporting mechanic for a number of powers and effects. no I am not talking about the 3ed marshal creating zones of +1 to hit. I mean personal effects. don't want to explain how the lifeshapper psionicist can climb on walls? well it's an aura thing. how does a power that helps you adapt to a hostile environment protect your worn equipment? it's an aura thing.
the ability to build a character that has a supporting theme, not a random mix a teker that masters pk- a lifeshaper that can manipulate flesh and lifeforce, his own and that of others.-a telepath that reads minds and does all kinds of things to "minds".- a clairvoyant who can change fate because he sees the future, not just the far away. A metacreative, who creates ectoplasmic apparitions, mistycurtains, shields, weapons, and yes even "pseudo-summons" creatures from dreams or nightmares.
the 2nd ed psionicist had a huge mix of powers availiable, but had to specialize by discipline... does it really make sense to have psionic characters other than a "kaoticist" or "poltergiest" using random powers with absurdly random effects? nope. it dont.
the wizard has cantrips,
the bard can use bard rituals for free (*sorta),
so why not include a different for of "ritual" via
Trance meditation using altered states as a method for achieving specific psionic effects. This could keep wizards from "casting" psionic rituals and keep the psionic character from using arcane, primal, divine rituals.
why not? "alchemy" seems to require that the player forego rituals.
so why not have "trance" as a psionic method.
psionic characters should have a strong focus on utility powers 2ed psionics was rife with utility powers. combat powers were almost secondary to all the utility stuff. information gathering, movement, skill modification, special "one shot" abilities... all that stuff was cool. reducing the psionic character to "a wizard with the serial numbers filed off is wrong"
could a low level pyro have a "smoke-eatter" power, sure. should a low level pyrokinetic throw: fireball (*pyroblast), magic missle(*concusion), frost globe (*psicicle) no no no.
how about this instead: burn "start a fire with psychic energy, deals 1d6 damage to one target". enflame "fuel a fire with psychic energy, cause 5 ongoing fire damage". sear "your power causes worn armor to burn,". inferno "a fire you started with your powers gains [+1w] fire damage".
perhaps* fire within" the target of this power suffers 4d6 fire damage" firey death "the target ignites taking 7d8 fire damage" Combust "constructs take twice as much fire damage" firey doom "the target is at the ceter of your pyrokinetic wrath, primary target takes 4d6 fire damage adjacent squares take 2d6 fire damage"...
somethings that I would like to see:
meditation as an implement yes, some folks will want crystals and "dreaming stones" from the dream realm. that is fine. but a psionic character shouln't be forced to carry a crystal ball, a deck of tarokka cards,
One could say the same thing of wizards and especially sorcerers, which was indeed true in previous editions. This however is 4E, and in 4E casters have implements. The acquisition of magical implements/weapons to boost attack bonus is assumened in the baseline system math. The monkss ability to have magically enchanted fists is nice and flavorful, but it's not a mechanic I want to see extended to other psionic classes (no enchanted brains please).
somethings that I would like to see:
meditation as an implement yes, some folks will want crystals and "dreaming stones" from the dream realm. that is fine. but a psionic character shouln't be forced to carry a crystal ball, a deck of tarokka cards, and be a "vistani" (*although a psychic race that looks human would be cool.)
the whole "genderless insectoid" is just way wrong a concept for D&d, imho.
If it can be done in a balanced manner I would like to see this as a option. I am not sure how it would be done but would be cool to see. Perhaps mix it with my Disciplined and Undisciplined idea (like how Orb and Wand are different).
Also, psychic race that looks human = Elan for the win! I am really hopeful they will be in PHB3 they were a quite popular race in the Psionic books in 3.5. As for Thri-keen I am also a fan of them as well so would like to see them as well (since they are cool in general and having weirder races is a good thing in my books).
Also, psychic race that looks human = Elan for the win! I am really hopeful they will be in PHB3 they were a quite popular race in the Psionic books in 3.5.
Really? Never seemed all that interesting to me. Furthermore, their main shticks (being naturally psionic and inherently immortal) are no longer viable and/or relevant. Psionics wont' be a separate system so it doesn't need races specifically crafted for it, and all PCs achieve immortality of some sort as part of their epic destiny.
Also, we already have one looks human but isn't "psionic" race in the form of Eberron's Kalashtar, do we really need another? (certanly not so soon as PHB3) What unique elements would elans bring to the table to set them apart?
- The ability to essentially be reborn. One can be a Human one day, and through going through the ritual becomes something else, a Elan. They idea of self-induced transformation and change is quite appealing to me.
- The mystery of the Elan. Their rituals are secret, the method of choosing applicants is secret. So this can be either kept ambiguous or developed differently for each individual setting, so the Elan are flexible.
- They have a "wolf's-in-sheep's-clothing" feel. In that while their appearance may be Human they certainly are far from. Both in personality and abilities.
- They would be classified as Aberrations and we don't have any Aberration-races yet.
- They are naturally resilient and can survive extremes (such as eating, sleeping and such) without being a "hearty" race. New unique Psionic like-Racial Abilities can be developed for it.
- Can be a "weird race" in more then simply looking different.
- Many interesting character concepts can be developed from them. Thanks to the method of being born. Be it dealing with your past life, the memories you have from your old life, rituals going wrong, etc.
before the world was born, beings of unimaginable power dreamt. Some of their dreams became beings in their own right and those beings escaped the realm of dream... these ascended beings watched the birth of the world, and knew that it must be cherished and protected. The ascened beings took their place at the far edges of the 'Dead space' beyond the world. They believe their existance lay in defending the boundary between the mortal realm and the far realm. these ascended beings took a small role in the primordial/gods war. They rescued a small kingdom in the path of a horror summoned from the far realm, by placing it and all of it's occupants into the dream realm. being in all ways a neutral party they did not act unless the world itself was in danger from the insane consumption of the far realm. the ascended beings otherwise do not interfere with the world. Ages have passed, and many casters have torn holes and passages to the dimensions beyond speaking. the most powerful ascended being has grown old and died, the dream that held the small kingdom aloft has come to an end. these peoples return to the world after generations of living in the dream realm. They return with the knowledge given to them by their former guardian, the art of psionics.
**************************************************************
Durring the primordial/gods war a titan demigod gathered followers to march on the primordials in their chaotic realm. These followers were shunned by the gods for following a mere titan. In his vanity the titan was mortally wounded while deep in the primordial, but His dying act was to create a small island of stability in the chaos, a land for his followers. His followers where trapped deep in the wild chaos of primordial seas. without help from the gods they had to find their own way to overcome the mind breaking maddness. They had to defend their island from more than monsters that attacked flesh, but from chaos itself. Chaos could be barred from their lands by will and the power of will. So these peoples lived since the creation war, gradually being tainted by the elements and forces of the primordial chaos. With their numbers growing the "survivors" began to send explorers and exiles to return to the world of their ancestors. a world that did not remember them.
**************************************************************
Deep In the astral sea, a godess created a matriarchal society in her divine domain. with her interest in the mortal world gone, her powers waned until she ceased to be. Not before she created the "motherstone" artifact which would ensure that the women of her domain who chose to touch the stone would become with child, and bear only female children. In time the amazon isle drifted closer to the world, and the amazons grow fearful and curious of the world of men...
**************************************************************
Not all who ventured through the shadow rifts of the shardar kai were willing. A MASSIVE caravan of eladrin were captured durring a raid and forced into slavery by a city of shardar kai. before the city of moil was banished into the farthest reaches of the shadow fell by orcus, these captured eladrin turned from their pride, their huaghtiness, and the arcane magic which they now saw as thier weakness that resulted in their capture... they took to the shadows, the night, the darkness, taking up the short sword, using venoms, to one day break free of thier prison and escape the shadow fell. It was already too late for some... the darkness had gripped their souls and they became the forlorn and the banshee. Those who survived became something different from their "HIGH ELF" kin. They spat at magic users, and clung to the shadow ways. Their place was not a bright one, but they did find a place in the world to call their own.
***********************************************************
how are these race ideas? at least two are psionic and one is definately shadow, ... and one is definately full of hot chicks!
One could say the same thing of wizards and especially sorcerers, which was indeed true in previous editions. This however is 4E, and in 4E casters have implements. The acquisition of magical implements/weapons to boost attack bonus is assumened in the baseline system math. The monkss ability to have magically enchanted fists is nice and flavorful, but it's not a mechanic I want to see extended to other psionic classes (no enchanted brains please).
meditation wasn't just a "non weapon proficiency" in 2nd ed, and meditative focus was an interesting mechanic in 3.5 psi, despite 3.5 being S.P.U.M. (*spell point using mages, dressed up with buzz words) The idea is that a psionic character could place them selves into a trance that benefits the use of thier powers. obviously, more experienced psionic characters would have developed advanced techniques and applications of their meditative focus and trance states. I.e. could a pyro practice the trance of "burning rage"... yup. how about recive a +6 focus/meditation/trance bonus as a level 30 psionic character? in my opinion *HECK YEAH* and you might note that these trances could be a unique form of ritual for psionic characters only. this is not having arcane items or snortting residium to be a better psychic.
last but not least, just cause a wizard does it, it don't mean a psionic character should too. I am firmly in the camp that says psionics should be different from magic as it once was in 2nd ed. A personal art, personal power, affecting either yourself or one target at a time... powers that could be used on more than one character, read a lot like rituals, almost 10+ years before the concept of rituals came to be...
last I checked, wizards memorized spells. before 3rd, sorcerers didn't exist and no wizard ever gained (*or needed*) so much as a +1 to hit with a spell from having memorized (*2nd ed)/prepared spells (*3rd ed). so I would hardly confuse that with a psionic meditation or a trance state.
I think it's kind of classic to see a psychic 'hold' someone in place with their mind.
The most likely disciplines to be ported over to 4E psionics are (from most likely to least likely):
Telepath: Mind control and enchantment will definitely be a large part of the psion's repertoire. They mentioned that wizards had their enchantments reduced in scope to make the psionic classes more unique.
Kineticist: Telekinesis is another classic psychic ability, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't represented by some of the psion's abilities. This will mostly involve force damage (with a few fire or lightning powers involving spontaneous combustion and such), leaving the fireballs and explosions to the wizards.
Seer: Divination and precognition are also abilities that fit well with the psion's "mind over matter" theme. More powerful predictions will probably be the domain of rituals, but there might be a number of powers that give bonuses to defenses or rerolls based on predicting the enemy's next move.
Shaper: Metacreativity may or may not make the cut. Psychic powers aren't really known for their summoning abilities outside of D&D. If it does appear, it may eschew the whole "crystals and ectoplasm" flavor in favor of something based on dreams. Manifesting one's dreams and nightmares in the real world could be an interesting basis for psionic summoning, and may be a possible third build (after Telepath and Kineticist) for the psion in Psionic Power.
Nomad: Astral projection will probably be covered by rituals. Other than that, I don't see much in the way of psionic teleportation (perhaps the psionic defender may have a few powers in this vein).
Egoist: Psychometabolism seems to involve a lot of shapeshifting, and as such steps on the toes of the primal classes. Its powers may be ported to one of the new primal classes in PHB3, but it's a bit harder to justify as a psionic thing.
I rather hope that Telepathy will be the domain of Empaths, not Psions
Precognition should be a theme common to almost all psionic classes.
Psychoportation (nomad) is the field of monks now., They even have relatively low level teleportation, and all the new movement powers are just the new adaption of psychoportation.
So I really hope Psions will make more use of kineticism (believe me, they're gonna master elements...
) and I also hope for a psionic defender that will use psychometabolism and telekinesis with Con primary. Someone whose physical might extends outside of his body and makes solid barriers out of thin air (and psionic prowess of course).First my concept was that they should make a controller, a defender, a striker, and a leader class outline, divvy all the powers into disciplines and let each class outline pick different disciplines. The controller could pick powers from any of four disciplines chosen at 1st level, the defender could pick from two, the leader and striker would get 3 and 2 respectively.
Then another thought would be to take the disciplines and make them each a class.
Nomad would be a dex primary striker, with intelligence governing a leader sub-role, or wisdom pushing a defender sub-role.
Shaper as an int driven controller, with wisdom governing a controller subset, and charisma powering a defender aspect through the shaped critters.
For implements I'd wager Rods (Dorje), Crystal (Orb), and Possibly a meditation scroll (also useful for the Shugenja's ofuda). Soulknife is anyone's gues at this point.
And there will be energy powers for psions and likely other psionic classes, since it doesn't make sense from a game design view to restrict any class to just 1 or 2 damage types. While many cleric and paladin powers are radiant, they have some that aren't. Similarly though the bard mostly has psychic and thunder powers, they have many that aren't.
In fact it seems that out of all the classes in a power source, it's always the controller that has the most diverse variety of damage type powers.
Psion (Psionic Controller):
Key Abilities: Charisma, Intelligence, Constitution(or Wisdom)
Are you INSANE!!!!! Psions should so have intelligence as primary.Psionics = Manifesting the Will
Charisma as primary sounds right to me.
I like the idea of the meditation as implement but the problem is enchanting one and buying one... maybe having 'Meditation Focus' as implement instead? You don't use them AS implement during combats, but you're required to meditate and focus on them during every extended rest to gain the bonus, failiure to do so is like losing your item (though you could regain your bonus by spending an hour or two with your focus).
Why would you have to buy something that exists in your mind?
maybe to be tuaght how to use the trance (*READ AS RITUAL) from an enlightened one
, or to decipher an ancient text that holds the key to a trance (*read as ritual) that you want to master, also You shouldn't need anything. not a wizzards staff, not even a psi-charged dreaming stone...
as a side note
*HEY!*
I really resented how almost every 3.x psi class knew how to use a spear, and simple weapons. that was it. if you were psychic, you had a spear-
so did sorcerers-
so did druids-
hey wizards! can my psionicist be DIFFERENT?
psionic characters need only their minds. Like you mention above "meditation" as an implement can not be stollen from you, lost or destroyed, but it could require you to complete a trance (read as ritual) ever so often. you wouldn't need to get one enchanted, so much as you need to have LEARNED to use the trance (read as ritual) that you want to use...
do you see now?
Psionicist characters don't need headbands, or pet rocks...
but you can have one if you want one.
Why would you have to buy something that exists in your mind?
maybe to be tuaght how to use the trance (*READ AS RITUAL) from an enlightened one
, or to decipher an ancient text that holds the key to a trance (*read as ritual) that you want to master, also You shouldn't need anything. not a wizzards staff, not even a psi-charged dreaming stone...
as a side note
*HEY!*
I really resented how almost every 3.x psi class knew how to use a spear, and simple weapons. that was it. if you were psychic, you had a spear-
so did sorcerers-
so did druids-
hey wizards! can my psionicist be DIFFERENT?
psionic characters need only their minds. Like you mention above "meditation" as an implement can not be stollen from you, lost or destroyed, but it could require you to complete a trance (read as ritual) ever so often. you wouldn't need to get one enchanted, so much as you need to have LEARNED to use the trance (read as ritual) that you want to use...
do you see now?
Psionicist characters don't need headbands, or pet rocks...
but you can have one if you want one.
Balancing this would, however, be a complete nightmare. Part of the 4e design theory is not to overcomplicate things, which this definitely would. Let's just go with regular implements.
Balancing this would, however, be a complete nightmare. Part of the 4e design theory is not to overcomplicate things, which this definitely would. Let's just go with regular implements.
How do you figure?
Access should be comparable to other level-appropriate mechanics, or, as with the Monk Unarmed Implement, it should simply access existing mechanics and incorporate them. The Monk UI also cannot be disarmed, and it is in no way broken.
Price should likewise be comparable to the cost of other level-appropriate mechanics, or, again, simply apply it in the same manner as the Monk UI.
Meditation as a mechanic shouldn't be any worse than the Monk UI in terms of both believability and implementation. Sure, some may not like the IDEA of turning one's body as a whole into an implement. However, thematically, that is incredibly apropos. Psionicists, unlike every other power source save perhaps some divine characters, should be at full power even if naked, thematically speaking. The Monk seems to indicate that mechanically speaking, this is in no way unworkable, or even remotely difficult to implement.
Why would you have to buy something that exists in your mind?
what I had in mind was that you buy say a stone with a patern engraved on it, or a scroll with meditation words (like the budhist Ohm and stuff) and you have to look at it and concentrate on the pattern or read the words out loud to perform said trance.
But then after that you can just stow it in your backpack and for the rest of the day you have the effect of the trance acting like an implement bonus.
A lot like a ritual but with 0 component cost and a specific ritual focus.
Though I guess you COULD have them as 0 component cost rituals where the ritual focus and the market price of the ritual combine to equal the price of a same level enchantment. Have the duration be 1 day.
Either way you still have to pay SOMETHING at SOMEPOINT to get it.
The problem is then that the focus would have to be specific to each trance so as not to screw with the economy by letting you have multiple trance using the same focus... though if they don't stack it could add a fun type of variety to psionicists.
I'd like to see Psionic Tatoos make a return for the Psi implement, as they'd be an easy compromise between "innate" implements and standard items.
Psion
Psions should be a a V class with Wisdom and Charisma primaries, with Int as secondary. The builds would be specialisations in Mind-Control/Precognition or Telekenesis/Energy manipulation, with a class feature that grants a related minor-action control power.
Defender
Wisdom primary, Int/Con secondaries with the Con build gaining armour proficiencies as bonus feats.
They'd defend by having powers that have a greater effect against marked enemies, either through a warlock-pact mechanic or by having thier powers contain an extra rider. In either case they should gain combat advantage vs marked enemies.
Soulknife
The soulknife should be a feat which grants the ability to conjure a weapon with which you're proficient, with a note that if you have a Tatoo/innate implement then you can apply it's enhancement bonuses & properties to your soulknife attacks.
Elan
Being immortal, psychic and looking like humans might not be valid schticks (Schticki?) any more, but "Ascended Creature" is.
They might lose thier "Humans-Only" restriction, and may well gain a unique appearance (I'm looking at you Revenant!), but as long as they can say "I was mortal once. I got better." then they're Elan.
Stat wise, I can see them as either Immortals or Aberrant Animates, with the ability to ignore damage from enviromental effects (including hunger, thirst and asphyixiation) and a power that lets them spend healing surges to automaticaly succeed on saving throws.
Attached to these should be at-will utilities that only function when the PC is Focused. i.e. A Wall Climb utility for Soulknives/Lurks, a levitate utility for Psions, an anti-push/pull/slide for Psychic Warriors, etc.
I'd also like a few feats in the vein of "Psionic Strike/Bolt/Fist" that allows the Psionic Focus to be expended for something similar to "Add Mod Damage Again". Nothing huge, but something that can add another dimension to character building and allow that Controller to pump out more damage when they need to.
I rather hope that Telepathy will be the domain of Empaths, not Psions
Precognition should be a theme common to almost all psionic classes.
Psychoportation (nomad) is the field of monks now., They even have relatively low level teleportation, and all the new movement powers are just the new adaption of psychoportation.
So I really hope Psions will make more use of kineticism (believe me, they're gonna master elements...
Aspects of telepathy will probably be part of both the Psion and the Empath, with the former using the more direct "mind control" abilities and the latter being based on more subtle "suggestion"-based uses.
There will probably be a few elemental psion powers (mainly fire, lightning, and thunder/sonic), but the bulk of his abilities will deal psychic or force damage.
As for psionic implements, things like staffs, wands, or rods wouldn't really make much sense with the internal focus of psionics. If an implement from another source is reused, the orb would probably make the most sense flavorwise. Crystals and tattoos are two possibilities for psionic-specific implements, which let them focus and strengthen their internal powers.
One thing I would like to see is "Psionic Focus" as a unifying factor in all Psionic Classes...like Channel Divinity. Unlike Channel Divinity, these would be usable at will for a Minor Action, but require a Minor Action to "recharge"...thus, they would be usable every other turn, or every turn if they burn their Move as a Minor.
Attached to these should be at-will utilities that only function when the PC is Focused. i.e. A Wall Climb utility for Soulknives/Lurks, a levitate utility for Psions, an anti-push/pull/slide for Psychic Warriors, etc.
I'd also like a few feats in the vein of "Psionic Strike/Bolt/Fist" that allows the Psionic Focus to be expended for something similar to "Add Mod Damage Again". Nothing huge, but something that can add another dimension to character building and allow that Controller to pump out more damage when they need to.
Hey, this sounds.....GOOD!
Chiming in on other stuff, I personally like crystals and orbs for implements. Maybe they'll add a caveat for mounting them on a staff, etc.
what I had in mind was that you buy say a stone with a patern engraved on it, or a scroll with meditation words (like the budhist Ohm and stuff) and you have to look at it and concentrate on the pattern or read the words out loud to perform said trance.
But then after that you can just stow it in your backpack and for the rest of the day you have the effect of the trance acting like an implement bonus.
Hrmmm....
It's the STONE here that is functioning exactly as an implement is intended. The only difference is you apparently can throw this implement away until tomorrow. Although abstract "meditations" as implements is a neat idea, relying on something non-combat (a ritual, etc.) to balance something you use in combat (implements) seems to go against the 4e grain. For me, the Psionic Focus idea above captures the "meditative augment" flavor quite well and falls easily within the game structure.Implements
I'd like to see Psionic Tatoos make a return for the Psi implement, as they'd be an easy compromise between "innate" implements and standard items.
I think tattoos would work better as items since it's not just psionic characters that are seen using them. Err...wait a sec, didn't we get a leak/preview of that already?
I think we did.
This is kind of my reaction. I'm surprised but genuinely curious that there is debate about what the Psion's primary ability should be.
It doesn't seem like stagnant legacy or a sacred cow to stick with Intelligence, at least to me. So why? Is using Int too much like the wizard?Aspects of telepathy will probably be part of both the Psion and the Empath, with the former using the more direct "mind control" abilities and the latter being based on more subtle "suggestion"-based uses.
There will probably be a few elemental psion powers (mainly fire, lightning, and thunder/sonic), but the bulk of his abilities will deal psychic or force damage.
As for psionic implements, things like staffs, wands, or rods wouldn't really make much sense with the internal focus of psionics. If an implement from another source is reused, the orb would probably make the most sense flavorwise. Crystals and tattoos are two possibilities for psionic-specific implements, which let them focus and strengthen their internal powers.
Yessir, I agree. I just hope there's not gonna be much overlap between an eventual "telepath psion build" and the empath. And about elements, I would personally avoid thunder (and lightning too I guess) in favor of acid, which I don't know why exactly but strikes me as more psionic. Like "matter agitation" but at a pH level... Plus, if we're gonna see fire we're so probably gonna see cold, and I don't like it. But oh well, unfortunately here it's a matter of mechanical game balance. Although I'd prefer them to have utilities to render foes vulnerable to psychic or force. That would be a cool balancing factor for not having many damage types.
Speaking of implements, it is said the staff is going to appear due to it being present in artwork. I don't think it's a good proof, since the artwork must be quite old. And however I don't know which artwork are you referring to, the only one I remember is the two-page one in PHB1, classes chapter I guess, where a psion is shown and it's wielding a crystal. It also has tattoos, but I think it's clear that the crystal is the implement, in that pic at least.
I'm also pretty sure that some psionic class, that isn't the Monk, such as the Psychic Warrior will be using weapons as implements.
Though speaking about implements for the Monk, I hope they come out with weapons such as the Monk's Spade, Butterfly Swords, Tiger Hook Swords and Chain Dart all those unusual martial arts weapons eventually.
Hrmmm....
so...you like my idea?
Heh...sorry 'bout that.
In terms of "like," yes I do like the idea in general. I think it might be a cool magic item, sort of reminding me of a potion of heroism or incense of meditation or something like that.
However, in terms of mechanics I don't really think it is best as a type of standard implement (i.e., along with rods, staffs, etc.). My point was if this was how the hypothetical "meditation implement" was to work, it would be the equivalent of waving a magic wand once in the morning yet gaining the bonus all day. Since you can't do that with a wand (i.e., you must hold it in hand), this meditation implement seems unbalanced.
Some miscellaneous things:
- I can't remember if holy symbols need to be held when used.
- I don't think the "naked psions" fluff is necessarily a valid argument in supporting what we might call "abstract implements." You could say that sorcerers are supposed to be "naked" and not need paraphernalia, but they are arcane, not psionic. It's just fluff it seems. Plus implements aren't technically required by any of the classes.
- Perhaps we could see a new category of alternative implements that function as you suggest, Undrave, but as a standard implement I don't think the idea works best as is. Kinda neat though.
Gotta go!
So maybe my idea could apply to a psywarrior type of class that also has weapon powers. Essentially it would be like its 'holy symbol'.
Meanwhile the 'caster' classes would still use handheld implements.
d4 hit dice, I.e. mage (*controller) hit points
Mage thac0, or mage Bab, or the 4th ed combat adavncement +1/2 level for all! *except fighters
armor proficiency; cloth, like mages
implements: staves, daggers, and orbs,,, like mages
wizard weapon profs... just like you know...
a pet rock! "familiar"
NOTHING DIFFERENT FROM MAGES...
DON't DO IT. Designers please hear me out. If your psionicist is going to be the wizzard class dipped in 'funy words' Then you will have thrown away the whole of 4th ed for me, and quite possibly many others.
KEEP PSIONICS DIFFERENT FROM MAGIC, PLEASE
What I am curious about is what everyone thinks will make the Psionic defender class different from the Swordmage, especially if it's the psychic warrior or warmind updated to 4e. Even if it were a completely new class, what might be the concept? I think TK and psychometabolism have been mentioned. Any swordmage-contrasts to add and further distinguish a possible Psionic defender?
What I am curious about is what everyone thinks will make the Psionic defender class different from the Swordmage, especially if it's the psychic warrior or warmind updated to 4e. Even if it were a completely new class, what might be the concept? I think TK and psychometabolism have been mentioned. Any swordmage-contrasts to add and further distinguish a possible Psionic defender?
My thoughts for a psionic defender is that it could be a "mind controller". Basically their marks serve as a representation of them trying to take control of the creature's mind. Perhaps it would have attacks which are centered off of the monster's square. *shrugs* Just a thought.
My thoughts for a psionic defender is that it could be a "mind controller". Basically their marks serve as a representation of them trying to take control of the creature's mind. Perhaps it would have attacks which are centered off of the monster's square. *shrugs* Just a thought.
That's pretty cool. The mark could inflict a penalty to Will defense!
Also I'm thinking forcefield! He protects his allies by blocking the path of the enemie with invisible wall they can't bypass.
Mime for Psionic Defender!
Another possibility is that the Psionic Defender will be one of the previous 'Ki' classes like the monk! A defender style of Monk variant with another name and a mark, but with Full Discipline! Though his Full Discipline would give Minor Action that helps allies instead (like slide adjacent allies or give them defense bonus etc).
I don't want to see psionic classes deal any elemental damage beyond psychic or force. Psions don't conjure the elements, they unleash the strength of the mind. Push, pull, slide, knock prone, etc, are fine and thematic, but no fire, no ice, no lightning. Those things are not psionic.
I disagree. Energy control and manipulation is one of the many things that can be done with psionics. I don't think it should be as common as psychic and force, but it should not be eliminated.
As for the classes that cover the 4 roles, we already have the monk as a striker. When I first saw the monk, it reminded me of the egoist and partly the nomad psions. The egoist in 3E was difficult to use because he was a soft body that had to get in close to do stuff. The 4E monk to me is how an egoist should have been done in the first place.
When I think of the 4E psion (the controller), I see a class that has to include both telepathy and telekinesis. This leads me down the road of a class that has two primary attack stats like that of the warlock. These classes were unpopular because of the fact that many players chose to dump one of the two attack stats thus limiting them to only half of the powers. For the psion, if you combine both telepathy and telekinesis into a single class, I would design it so that these two types of powers use different attack stats. Telepathic powers would use Int and Telekinetic powers would use Con (finally another class that uses Con as an attack stat). You would build a character that specialised in one type of power or would have to generalise into two. I would have Cha as the secondary stat for rider effects.
The telepathic powers would be generally single target powers or close blasts that apply conditions. The psionic attack modes will be some of the telepathic powers. Many of the powers will have the psychic, charm or fear keywords. In addition to doing damage, these powers can dominate the targets.
The telekinetic powers would have more of the area burst powers that allow you to target multiple creatures. It would also have powers that push creatures around (force) or deal ongoing damage (fire).
A third option could be some type of summoning power. This would appear in the Psionic Power book. It would create objects, creatures and effects out of ectoplasm. It may sound similar to a summoning wizard, but I'm just out of ideas right now.
A psionic leader would have clairsentience powers. His abilities would allow him to forsee events allowing his allies to dodge a blow (buff AC) or strike true with an attack (buff attack bonus). I see the psionic leader as resembling the laser cleric somewhat. Like the telepath, he would have some powers resembling psionic attack modes. The rider effect would be to give an ally better AC or attack bonus.
I have a harder time figuring out how the psionic defender would be like. Part of me thinks it should be something like a Jedi. Part of me thinks that the Swordmage would be what a psionic defender is if you changed the arcane keywords to psionic. The challenge is to make something that can defend, but make it different than existing defenders.
The psionic defence modes will likely be incorporated in the various utility powers of the psionic classes. They could be immediate interrupts that boost the character's and/or his allies NAD's until the end of the next turn.
One option would be to actually have marks be psychically drawn to the defender, either by tk or by 'pathic compulsion.
Might be fun to change things up a bit and let the defender be the subtle charsimatic mental manipulator.
Psionic defender
One option would be to actually have marks be psychically drawn to the defender, either by tk or by 'pathic compulsion.
Might be fun to change things up a bit and let the defender be the subtle charsimatic mental manipulator.
"I defend by charming my foe with my winning smile" :D *twinkle on the teeth*
Animal magnetism :p
One of the things about the psionics flavour is that the powers are not supposed to require any implements whatsoever. I think with the 4E rules and the economics surrounding it, you pretty much have to have some type of implement or some way of enhancing your body to enhance your powers. The monk is able to enchant his hands. Perhaps some other psionic classes can enhance themselves in some way, too.
The monk enhancing/enchanting his hands is equivalent to magic weapons, not magic implements. I do hear the argument about "naked" psionics flavor, but I still think crystals and orbs are not that obtrusive, especially if you could just wear the crystal or mount it on a weapon. I guess if crystals didn't require an item slot or free hand they might retain the naked flavor AND uphold 4e implement economics, so to speak.
As for the classes that cover the 4 roles, we already have the monk as a striker. When I first saw the monk, it reminded me of the egoist and partly the nomad psions. The egoist in 3E was difficult to use because he was a soft body that had to get in close to do stuff. The 4E monk to me is how an egoist should have been done in the first place.
Couldn't some of the egoist's stuff also go to a psionic defender class?
When I think of the 4E psion (the controller), I see a class that has to include both telepathy and telekinesis. This leads me down the road of a class that has two primary attack stats like that of the warlock. These classes were unpopular because of the fact that many players chose to dump one of the two attack stats thus limiting them to only half of the powers. For the psion, if you combine both telepathy and telekinesis into a single class, I would design it so that these two types of powers use different attack stats. Telepathic powers would use Int and Telekinetic powers would use Con (finally another class that uses Con as an attack stat). You would build a character that specialised in one type of power or would have to generalise into two. I would have Cha as the secondary stat for rider effects.
The telepathic powers would be generally single target powers or close blasts that apply conditions. The psionic attack modes will be some of the telepathic powers. Many of the powers will have the psychic, charm or fear keywords. In addition to doing damage, these powers can dominate the targets.
The telekinetic powers would have more of the area burst powers that allow you to target multiple creatures. It would also have powers that push creatures around (force) or deal ongoing damage (fire).
I really like the basic gist of how you split things up here with ability scores and single vs. burst powers.
One small disagreement, though, is I'd keep Int as the central stat with rider effects pumped by Cha (telepathic) and Con (tk).A third option could be some type of summoning power. This would appear in the Psionic Power book. It would create objects, creatures and effects out of ectoplasm. It may sound similar to a summoning wizard, but I'm just out of ideas right now.
I must be honest, I'm just not such a big fan of psionic summoning powers. I mean, the 3e shaper was sort of cool, but it just doesn't strike me as.....being able to stand on its own thematically, I guess. Edit: You know, in retrospect, maybe it just doesn't have enough subtlety.
A psionic leader would have clairsentience powers. His abilities would allow him to forsee events allowing his allies to dodge a blow (buff AC) or strike true with an attack (buff attack bonus). I see the psionic leader as resembling the laser cleric somewhat. Like the telepath, he would have some powers resembling psionic attack modes. The rider effect would be to give an ally better AC or attack bonus.
Clairsentience, emotional feedback, whatever! I think as long as it's called the Empath I will be happy. Lol. :D Leadery rider effects are a given, I think, but laser cleric-ishness...hope not so much of that. I actually think this hearkens back to the "naked" psionicists flavor......but the applicable word here might be "invisible" or "subtle." Definitely not laser beams. ;)
I have a harder time figuring out how the psionic defender would be like. Part of me thinks it should be something like a Jedi. Part of me thinks that the Swordmage would be what a psionic defender is if you changed the arcane keywords to psionic. The challenge is to make something that can defend, but make it different than existing defenders.
Yup, yup, and yup. The psionic defender class does seem open to different directions. I'm confident they'll be able to make it distinctive from the Swordmage...I just don't see how yet. :D I also felt the Jedi might be a good story example, at least from what little I know and have seen of them.
The psionic defence modes will likely be incorporated in the various utility powers of the psionic classes. They could be immediate interrupts that boost the character's and/or his allies NAD's until the end of the next turn.
I think this sounds likely. I thought one of them was already mentioned in the Monk playtest, but I either just can't find it or I was thinking Diamond Mind. I coulda swore I saw Tower of Iron Will somewhere, though!
Psionic defender
One option would be to actually have marks be psychically drawn to the defender, either by tk or by 'pathic compulsion.
Might be fun to change things up a bit and let the defender be the subtle charsimatic mental manipulator.
Hmm...interesting! Mind fog, feinting, compulsions.....kinda subtle, creepy, and cool.
@Thread Overall:
As I understand it now the "naked" psionics argument being brought up really applies more broadly than just to implements, is that right? It sounds more like a hope that psionics in general will have a feel of being rather subtle and invisible--which I'm mostly down for. (I just don't think it necessarily bars implements.) Correct me if that's not what is meant.
"I defend by charming my foe with my winning smile" :D *twinkle on the teeth*
Animal magnetism :p
:heehee I love it!
Some at-wills I'd expect or like to see for Empath:
* A combination attack that works a bit like twin strike, only with one attack from you and one from an ally.
* A empathic bond that triggers extra damage on a target when a chosen ally is damaged.
* A commander's strike style attack that adds some kind of boost or effect instead of bonus damage.
* An attack that deals psychic damage + extra psychic damage based on the number of allies that meet some criterion, like being close to the target.
For class features and powers, I expect/hope for some effects like these:
* A mindlink effect that connects allies with a minor action, and operating as a targeting/range effect. I.e. an attack that does damage and then grants a bonus to all allies that are mindlinked to you.
* The ability to redistribute temporary hit points and bonuses among allies. This would work great with the mindlink concept.
* The ability to share healing surges to an extent.
* Allowing allies or yourself to make attacks while treating another ally's square as their origin square for the attack.
* The ability to flank with an ally via mindlink without being adjacent to the enemy that's flanked.
* The theme of granting group attacks, Ã la warlords and bards.
* The ability to move conditions around from ally to ally or to take conditions from allies and put them onto enemies.
* A "reverse dominate" effect for allies. Instead of taking actions away and controlling what is left over, you grant an ally an extra attack/power each round that you direct for them, or you let them use an extra attack on your turn. Kind of like an unconscious power or power link ability.
* The ability to grant dazed/stunned/unconscious/dominated allies an action, directing it from your square, flavoring it as unlocking the ally's power even when they're disabled.
* Multitarget healing, and the ability to spend a healing surge and distribute the hit points recovered among multiple allies.
* Allowing yourself and allies to lower one's own defenses to grant a defense bonus to other allies.
Couldn't some of the egoist's stuff also go to a psionic defender class?
I'm sure the various psionic disciplines will be divvied up amongst the various psionic classes. The psionic defender can certainly benefit from it. I don't have a good idea on how I would make a psionic defender. The 3.5 psychic warrior used armour and weapons and some 3.5 egoist powers like graft weapon would fit with a 4E psionic defender if it used weapons.
If the 4E psi-defender used armour and weapons, perhaps the character options could be either grafting weapons or grafting armour or grafting a shield. Weapon grafting gives you +1 to hit, grafting armour negates movement and armour check penalties and grafting shields gives you +1 AC.
The marking ability can be some psychic power that forces the marked enemy to have tunnel vision which causes him to have the -2 to hit the defender's ally. The mark's punishment mechanic could be something like the paladin's DC, but you would have to make an attack roll of some sort. A successful attack may either damage the mark, reduce damage to an ally or perhaps some forced movement or movement affecting effect (slow, immobilise).
I really like the basic gist of how you split things up here with ability scores and single vs. burst powers.
That works, too. The reason I suggested using Con and Int as attack stats is that I would like to see some more classes that use Con as an attack stat instead of just for rider effects. What you suggest is probably more likely to happen because players tend not to like classes with multiple attack stats. PHB2 classes all have a single attack stat with two secondary stats for rider effects.
I must be honest, I'm just not such a big fan of psionic summoning powers. I mean, the 3e shaper was sort of cool, but it just doesn't strike me as.....being able to stand on its own thematically, I guess. Edit: You know, in retrospect, maybe it just doesn't have enough subtlety.
Psionics in general in 3.5 seemed to be too much like spells with a different mechanic. Other than telepathy and telekinesis, I'm running out of ideas for a third psionic controller option. I suggested summoning since there is reference to ectoplasm in previous editions. Still, it just sounds like a cop-out to me.
Clairsentience, emotional feedback, whatever! I think as long as it's called the Empath I will be happy. Lol. :D Leadery rider effects are a given, I think, but laser cleric-ishness...hope not so much of that. I actually think this hearkens back to the "naked" psionicists flavor......but the applicable word here might be "invisible" or "subtle." Definitely not laser beams. ;)
My reference to the laser cleric is meant to refer to the psionic leader as more of a back row character rather than a front line character. Now that I think of psionics a bit more, I think that there is some room for psionic characters to actually use equipment. (When I said implements earlier, I actually meant equipment in general like armour, weapons and implements.) I can see the defender using equipment. I'm still having some difficulty in visualising the leader using equipment or more specifically, armour. Maybe I will come around. After all, the bard (an arcane class) wears armour.
@Thread Overall:
As I understand it now the "naked" psionics argument being brought up really applies more broadly than just to implements, is that right? It sounds more like a hope that psionics in general will have a feel of being rather subtle and invisible--which I'm mostly down for. (I just don't think it necessarily bars implements.) Correct me if that's not what is meant.
I personally do not recall in any type of fiction where some character that uses psionics used any equipment to enhance the effect except for Cerebral in X-Men. Cerebral does not fit the class of equipment in this particular discussion as it is more like a vehicle or base than something more compact that is wielded like a wand or a sword. Anything that used some time of equipment always had more of a magical feel to me rather than something psionic. The Jedi light sabre is probably the closest thing I can think of, but to me that is a weapon that anyone can use an is not psi-specific enough for me to say that the light sabre is meant for psionic characters.
From a mechanics point of view, there needs to be some type of equipment-like mechanic for psionics in D&D 4E. It is needed so that the economics and other math work out the same for psionic and non-psionic characters. The monk has implements and can enhance his hands, so the mechanics is balances with non-psionics. The only type of equipment that feels psionic to me would be those ioun stones that float around your head. 3E had dorjes (whatever they are) and other stuff, but those don't feel psionic or just seemed contrived to me. I like psionics and will welcome it in my D&D game. I just have a little trouble conceptualising a psionic character using a psi-enhancing piece equipment that has a fantasy flavour instead of a high-tech flavour.
I personally do not recall in any type of fiction where some character that uses psionics used any equipment to enhance the effect except for Cerebral in X-Men.
Cerebro and Cerebra are certainly some of the more prominent psionic enhancers. In the Pleistocene Exile series, the psionic users used torcs (basically thick open-sided necklaces) to enhance their psionic powers. Folks with no psionic powers could access whatever inherent power they had with torcs, and existing psionic users who used a golden torc had their powers essentially turned to maximum. An entire race was psionic because they used the torcs to both manifest, and maximize their inherent psionic potential. This is a pretty well-known series with nine novels (first is the Pleistocene Exile tetralogy, followed by the Intervention pair of novels, then the Galactic Milieu trilogy). You should find the entire run in most libraries and big box book stores.
This is kind of my reaction. I'm surprised but genuinely curious that there is debate about what the Psion's primary ability should be.
I didn't really think about it til after getting the EPG, but in 3.5e Kalashtar were designed to be one of the premier psionicists, and while the 4e version is designed to function without the Psionic Source, I would assume they are still designed to fit well with Psioncs. Kalashtar are +Wis/Cha, not Int. To me, that says that at least one of the Psion or Empath, maybe both, will not use Int for primary.
To me, that says that at leas one of the Psion or Empath, maybe both, will not use Int for primary.
Aye I am betting the Psion will use WIS and not INT.
Cerebro and Cerebra are certainly some of the more prominent psionic enhancers. In the Pleistocene Exile series, the psionic users used torcs (basically thick open-sided necklaces) to enhance their psionic powers. Folks with no psionic powers could access whatever inherent power they had with torcs, and existing psionic users who used a golden torc had their powers essentially turned to maximum. An entire race was psionic because they used the torcs to both manifest, and maximize their inherent psionic potential. This is a pretty well-known series with nine novels (first is the Pleistocene Exile tetralogy, followed by the Intervention pair of novels, then the Galactic Milieu trilogy). You should find the entire run in most libraries and big box book stores.
Thanks for the info about that psionic series of books.
This gives me some ideas on what type of items I can conceptualise would enhance psionic abilities. Torques seem to physically fit in the arm slot or the neck slot for magical items. Functionally, a psionic enhancing item should probably fit in the head slot. It is not know whether psionic classes all use the same implements (like divine classes) or if they use different implements. The monk class preview would seem to indicate that psionic classes will use different implements. I can see different psionic classes using different implements. The psionic defender may use implements that do not take up a weapon slot while the controller will probably have implements that do take up a weapon slot.
Ignoring the actual character and abilities and such, having heroes who have clockwork, biomechanical (think: H. R. Giger), or quasi-organic (Witchblade/The Darkness, Guyver), or simply sewing in better parts (ala the self-forged) and the associated abilities could easily cover its own power source and themes, while seperating them from the clean and clincal feeling of psionics proper.
This guy would be pretty fun to play while fighting in the Feydark, I think, but it would be hard to relate him to a monk:
Psion powers, in a similar fashion to monk powers, allow different options.
Rapid Temp attack
you use your mind to control the body temperature of your enemy
psionic Daily standard
? vs. fortitude
Effect: Choose one of the following
Heat up: deal 4d6 fire damage
Cool down: 2d6 cold damage and the target is immobilized (save ends)
and this could be applicable in different cases so the psion has more upfront versatility than the wizard in exchange for spellbook and rituals
there chould be a manipulate throat power that could let you do force(wind) damage or thunder(sonic)
Psionic defender
One option would be to actually have marks be psychically drawn to the defender, either by tk or by 'pathic compulsion.
Might be fun to change things up a bit and let the defender be the subtle charsimatic mental manipulator.
Could be neat to have something like an aegis with:
Immediate Interrupt * at-will
Trigger: an enemy marked by your makes an attack that does not include you as a target.
Attack: vs will
Hit: Choose one target of the attack. The attack does not target that creature.
It would function very much like Aegis of Shielding tactically, though it would be less reliable in general but more useful against attacks with non-damage effects.
conceptually, you psychically compel your mark not to attack that person. (I thought about making it abort the entire attack, but that might be too powerful. Another possible hit line could be "Hit: The attack does not occur. The action required to make the attack is expended but the power used in the attack is not.")
Aye I am betting the Psion will use WIS and not INT.
WIS is already a prime stat for 3/4 of the divine classes (secondary to the remaining one) and the prime stat for 2/4 the primal classes (secondary to one other). I'd rather not see it as the key stat for the central class of the psionic power source. WIS is a good conceptual fit for the flavor of divine and primal, being the stat most interconnected with faith and instinct. WIS is a good stat for interacting with external powers that relate to a heightened level awareness. Psionics however should mostly be a more internal power source; INT for mental discipline, CHA for force of personality, or even CON for the physical stamina needed to endure its use.
characters transform into miniscule golden dragonflies, as they engage in psionic combat over a continent away...
wizards do inexplicable things that defy the natural order, like turning a foe into a frog, newt or sheep. magic is not personal it isn't a limited tool as shown by casting a spell that allows 6 different targets to fly as they choose even if they fly to different locations... a telekinetic psionicist is involved with his target and personnally uses the power to move things as he sees fit. not "fire and forget" magic at all.
psionics should be personnal, an art that effects only one target at a time.
Psionics should not be super flashy and reality breaking. for example, levitation isn't about how much energy you can gather to lift an object as much as it simply defeats some part of the newtonian balance of forces... a slight push on your inertial constant and your falling up just as fast as something would falling down.
please
think of the derynni books by kathern kurtz please. a psychic disguise wasn't a matter of distorting your flesh, as much as it was a trance to telepathically decieve mental perceptions of others... taking advantage of "mistaken identity" to an extreme with telepathic training.
psionics should be personnal, an art that effects only one target at a time.
Psionics should not be super flashy and reality breaking. for example, levitation isn't about how much energy you can gather to lift an object as much as it simply defeats some part of the newtonian balance of forces... a slight push on your inertial constant and your falling up just as fast as something would falling down.
so if you make something that is patently impossible (and completely nonsensical) sound pseudo-sciency you can call it psionics, but if it simply sounds fantastic it's magic.
Both what you said and "I cast the fly spell and whisk us aloft with magic" are equally possible. The magic option just sounds less retarded.
please
think of the derynni books by kathern kurtz please. a psychic disguise wasn't a matter of distorting your flesh, as much as it was a trance to telepathically decieve mental perceptions of others... taking advantage of "mistaken identity" to an extreme with telepathic training.
good books
The exile series books, are not a good psionics source. why?
characters transform into miniscule golden dragonflies, as they engage in psionic combat over a continent away...
I do not recall anyone actually changing shape. Casting illusions upon themselves? Yes. Many made themselves look larger, or smaller. Send their mind out with a psionic construct? Yes. Physically altering their form? I simply do not remember that.
I sure wouldn't mind a new CON primary class.
Neither would I. Right now only the Warlock (or half of it) uses Con as the primary attack stat. I haven't heard of any issues with Con Warlocks.
Imagine a soulknife/blade defender, now imagine CON as a primary stat. As CON already has been used for the physical task of channeling energy, wouldn't a soul___'s power set rely on converting his/her vital energy or soul power into a blade fit the theme of CON? also it would open up a few new races to defender role. i.e. Gnoll, Hobgoblin (including mm), kobold, bullywug an others like dwarf
Agreed and love this thread
I always wondered how in RP terms the wizards would react to Psionics. Almost like their treading in our water...think there could be any animosity between psychics and spellcasters?
I'd prefer WIS as a primary though as I picture it as dictating a character's control over thier own mind.
Also, let's not forget we're getting 2 power sources that have little if anything to do with WIS, and potentialy a great deal to do with CON.
Both what you said and "I cast the fly spell and whisk us aloft with magic" are equally possible. The magic option just sounds less retarded.
I think what Liet meant is that Psionic powers should be more "natural" than arcane powers; It's the difference between lifting a rock with your thoughts and creating a giant thought-operated flying force-hand to pick it up for you.
I could be wrong though.
About Defenders
I'd like to see the defender built around the concept that their powers work more effectively when used to defend/avenge thier comrades, without any particular bias towards a particular power type.
Think the character who has trouble fighting thier enemy until thier friends are put in danger, at which point they turn thier nemesis into fine powder.
I also hope thier mark will be passive like the fighter, but I'm not holding out much hope for that.
Edit-----
A good series for kinda-psychic characters is the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson.
Also the "Nights Dawn" and "Void" trilogies by Peter F. Hamilton.
Psions shouldn't have CON as a stat because Psionics in it's purest form is Mental, so they should use a combination of INT, WIS and CHA, no matter which way they're organised.
I'd prefer WIS as a primary though as I picture it as dictating a character's control over thier own mind.
Also, let's not forget we're getting 2 power sources that have little if anything to do with WIS, and potentialy a great deal to do with CON.
Maybe, though it's hard to speculate much on shadow or elemental at this time, however, regardless of what stats those undefined power sources will emphasize we already have 2 power sources that are rather heavily focused on WIS (primal and divine), while CON is a relatively under used stat.
As for CON not being a "mental" stat, this is mostly true, but there are several ways in which it can still be a viable psionic stat.
- First, if psionics is seen as being directly related to the brain, then the brain being part of the physical body makes a CON a consideration at least.
- Second, is the concepts of psionic powers being highly demanding. Many fictions will depict a character using psionics as sweating profusely as the concentrate, while their blood rushes so violently that the risk stroke or aneurysm. In this respect CON is an important stat as it allows the mentalists to endure the use of their own powers.
- Third, is the concept of body manipulation. In this model a high CON isn't the cause of the characters psionic powers but rather the result. The character is able to use there superior mental abilities to assert greater control of their own bodily functions, essentially allowing them to micro manage their own body chemistry by precisely controlling release of hormones and regulating or even accelerating cell growth. This could be a very viable idea for a psionic defender.
don't forget that Psionic swallowed Ki and CON would fit well with Ki.
Agreed and love this thread
I always wondered how in RP terms the wizards would react to Psionics. Almost like their treading in our water...think there could be any animosity between psychics and spellcasters?
This would depend entirely on the personality of the individual people involved (in other words, some might, some might not). I can't imagine a wizard reacting negatively to someone simply because they're psionic (or divine, primal, or martial, for that matter).
This would depend entirely on the personality of the individual people involved (in other words, some might, some might not). I can't imagine a wizard reacting negatively to someone simply because they're psionic (or divine, primal, or martial, for that matter).
It depends on the world, for instance in my possible world arcane magic is usually only studied by the relatively wealthy since they have to pay for a spellbook, implements, rituals and casting them, and tutoring, whereas Psions are often found among the poor or street gangs because psions don't need any truly formal method of learning. Now if there is an influx of poverty and more psions, that could ruin local wizard job oppurtunities because psions could accomplish supernatural tasks for much cheaper, so if the mage guilds think the situation gets to dire for them, they set out to attack any sized collection of psions, thus leading to an animosity between the two.
The point is that Psions and Wizards arguably compete at what they do: jobs for money
as apposed to druids and invokers, who do jobs in main interest for faith and to guard the natural world
in my possible world
psionicist are there any loose stones arround? D.M. yes, your inside a cavern after an earthquake, there are loose stones everywhere you could look. psionicist, "okay I select one at the limit of my range for this power, balistic strike and direct it to hit that orc".
what am I trying to say wizzards need to catalyze components of power, utter insane soulbreaking words of power, and gesture in the proper signs of the zarrathud kallushian rote to harness external magical force to violate reality. which could include turning a 340 lb goliath Barbarian wearing another 60 lbs of gear,,, into a soft furry utterly harmless mouse that weighs 4 ounces when wet. of course, you could just watch narruto anime till you get it...
a psionicist goes within to harness a union of physical, spiritual and mental energy. Thier own inner strength to use a psionic power. Focusing a disciplined mind though years of training to access their personal power. yes, what a psionicist can do is fantastic, but at no time can a psionicist just walk away from a power that they are actively using.
A spell opperates independently of the caster, possibly even with a form of sentience! SPELLS may have strange rules about what it can effect, like how "fireball" will burn your enemies but can't set the hay loft on fire, or how "magic missile" could instantly slay a commoner, but couldn't cut a sheet of paper...
a psionicist (*2nd ed) needed to be there, a psionicist is involved with the use of a power. Psionic powers did not violate reality as radically as component driven magic does, no where near a sorcerer "CASTING A SPELL" that may require ghost dog tonuge, lavabat hairs, and a nymph's bathing robe...
seriously the psionicist is the power source, the channel to the target, and the directing will that controls the effect.
Not stellar alignments, no ancient languages, no sigils, no runes, no exotic materials.
years of exotic training and mysterious mystical techniques, yes.
inner power vs, power borrowed from elsewhere. Involvement vs, independent acts. the difference between applications of internal energy, vs. using occult suppernatural legalese to rewrite a part of existance.
ANYONE can see that psionic and arcane methods are utterly irreconcillable. The methods, philosophies, techniques and the very nature of their effects should show this difference.
Agreed and love this thread
I always wondered how in RP terms the wizards would react to Psionics. Almost like their treading in our water...think there could be any animosity between psychics and spellcasters?
Okay, as a D.M. I ran with the whole "outside the system" thing. There was a balance of power between arcanists, and divine casters... the reintroduction of psionics in 2nd ed led to these two long standing powers to engage in an inquisition to investigate the origin of psionics. I.e. actively hunting psionic creatures, characters and organizations.
problem was how do you recognize a psionicist? by their turban? How do you spot someone cappable of reading your thoughts?
the answer was to create rules for detect magic, and refine the interaction of spells with psionics. while magic glowed blue, psionics was a hazzy gray outline. further, a psionicist couldn't "hide" the use of their powers, such as pretend o drink from a mug while reading a mind. they had to actively concentrate and look towards the target. a kind of psychic signature rule was used to allow targets of a psionic effect to realize who was trying to do something psionic to them.
of course the arcanists who sought power no matter the cost tried to develop ways to steal or learn psionics for them selves... Good through humble training and practice (*if they had both the "will" and the "way") and evil through torture, dissection and experimentation.
Divine orders saw the use of "faithless" power as a mortal sin. a sin greater than vanity, on par with claiming you are your own god. True psionicists and charlatins were both a threat to the faithful and their power over them...
*********************************************
Psionicists turned to actively seeking wild talents- even to risk rescue from the clutches of the inquisition, and then train them into becoming full fledged psionicists.
it should be noted that 4th ed will haddle the INCLUSION of psionics very differently.
the phrase "PSIONIC MAGIC" is used over and over again. why? it is definately intentional. as if to say, "it is a magical fatastic thing, but not what a wizzard does". also, it could be said that the inclusive nature of "psionic magic" verbage could be intended to defeat the whole "psionics is psuedo-science and doesn't belong in my fantasy game" B.S.
how would a commoner look at; a cleric, a wizzard, a druid, a shaman, a sorcerer, a bard, and a psionicist? exactly the same in 4th ed. they all do something radically different and powerful that is far from the norms that they know.
to wit: "IT'S MAGIC", is a pretty good summary of the commoners point of view. of course among the proffesionals of each class they have different views on eachothers methods.
also, it can be used to set up a rivalry if you wished... by declaring powersources "exclusive" in some ways, to include barring multiclassing as a D.M.'s option for his/her game.
further it could allow for athasian "dragon kings" by allowing the study of magic and psionics to complement eachother as an epic destiny with an ultimate destiny quest/immortality of becoming a dragon king or preserver archon
ohhhh!inclusive is good.
First, if psionics is seen as being directly related to the brain, then the brain being part of the physical body makes a CON a consideration at least.
meh. Power sources being dependant upon specific physical characteristics is dodgy in a fantasy setting. If psionics requires a brain then at the very least we can't have Psionic Oozes or Constructs.
That said, I don't have anything against CON in Psionics, just CON in Psions.
I don't see any major conflict between casters and psychics for the same reason we don't see conflict between casters and godbotherers. Sure, they're both supernatural but they're capable of different things.
For a good film who's main character is a Psion watch "Dark City".
It be Awesome.
(For added awesome turn off the sound until you see a man looking at his watch. There's a voiceover at the start which gives away some of the plot.)
For a good film who's main character is a Psion watch "Dark City".
It be Awesome.
(For added awesome turn off the sound until you see a man looking at his watch. There's a voiceover at the start which gives away some of the plot.)
* I knew it, Jack Bauer was conspiring with aliens!
The best part of that movie, IMHO was Anita Kelsey. Especially when she sang the "sway me" song in the blues bar. True Beauty, true art, She is both and has stollen my heart.:D
meh. Power sources being dependant upon specific physical characteristics is dodgy in a fantasy setting. If psionics requires a brain then at the very least we can't have Psionic Oozes or Constructs.
That said, I don't have anything against CON in Psionics, just CON in Psions.
I don't see any major conflict between casters and psychics for the same reason we don't see conflict between casters and godbotherers. Sure, they're both supernatural but they're capable of different things.
For a good film who's main character is a Psion watch "Dark City".
It be Awesome.
(For added awesome turn off the sound until you see a man looking at his watch. There's a voiceover at the start which gives away some of the plot.)
wait I didn't play 3.5, but I swear I heard there were psionically created constructs
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Astral_Construct
et pour nos edition
http://www.ddmspoilers.com/mm_02.php
look for psychic sentinel
I don't see any major conflict between casters and psychics for the same reason we don't see conflict between casters and godbotherers. Sure, they're both supernatural but they're capable of different things.
Any conflict between different classes that create "fantastic" effects is more tied to the setting than anything else. In Mystara, I believe that the kingdom of Glantri was ruled by wizards and was anti-theism. You don't want to be a cleric in Glantri. Likewise, in Anthas of the Dark Sun setting, you don't want to be a wizard as wizardry is taboo there. Only psionics and divine magic was accepted. Mechanics-wise, there should be nothing that prevents the different types of magic/psionics or other fantastic classes from working together or not working together.
1. Someone mentioned a Psionic Focus class ability earlier, and I think it's brilliant. By having an encounter power than can be recharged as a minor action, you have a mechanical way of imitating meditation. A Psion could keep using the power each turn, but would have to stop moving. You could also use an action point, which would be like meditating while moving (very Naruto-like, for those who know what I mean). Considering the release is next week, it's unlikely we'll see this (unless WoTC also had this great idea), but I wanted to applaud the concept. Really cool design.
2. Empath feels a bit too generic for me. Between the Monk, Psion, Psychic Warrior / Soul Blade (either fused or seperate), each class is a pretty different take on Psionics. Someone mentioned chakras before, and I think that's the key to a Psionic Leader. I feel like the class should be something along the lines of a Yogi/Guru, who uses his mind to manipulate points of energy in the body and mind. He could open up gates in an ally's body to temporarily increase his attack power, but at a physical price. He could paralyze enemies or even drain their life energy.
One ability could be a melee touch that transfers a healing surge from a willing adjacent ally (or the caster) to another adjacent ally in need. Imagine the character reaching out and touching two allies to form the bridge.
On top of these abilities could be ones of psionic self-augmentation (I saw psychometabolism under discussion), as well as the protection of others (taking the energy out of blows an ally takes, a variation of a Swordmage's Aegis of Shielding).
The concept of a Yogi even comes with the notion of two divergent paths (according to some traditions). A good summary from wikipedia:
The Shiva-Samhita text defines the yogi as someone who knows that the entire cosmos is situated within his own body, and the Yoga-Shikha-Upanishad distinguishes two kinds of yogins: those who pierce through the "sun" (surya) by means of the various yogic techniques and those who access the door of the central conduit (sushumna-nadi) and drink the nectar
While the exact mechanical nature of either path can be interpreted in different ways, the descriptions serve as a springboard for the kind of paths that can be introduced.
All in all, this concept would include many of the abilities an Empath would have, some it would not, and would have it's own mechanical style and flavor. I think Yogi has too many specific religious connotations to Hinduism, and has the potential to offend, while Guru is a bit less defined and is used in India pretty similarly to how it's used in the West. A Guru is also not necessarily religious, the term is used for different sorts of philosophers and non-theistic metaphysicians. Like the Monk, it would be an Asian-influenced class that could easily be refitted with Western flavor while still retaining a very unique play-style.
So there you have it. Guru for Psionic Leader. Just a suggestion to think about (though I'm sure the Psionic Leader class has already been written up at this point).
...Psychic Warrior / Soul Blade (either fused or seperate)...
Why do people keep suggesting that the soulknife might/should be merged with the psychic warrior? To me the soulknife has always seemed to have more in common with classes like the rogue or monk (both now strikers), while psychic warriors have seemed to have more in common with fighters and paladins (both now defenders). The only particularly significant connection between the soulknife and psychic warrior was that they awere both psionic classes, but even at that they were rather different classes (the psychic warrior could manifest powers, while the soulknife was mostly only psionic by flavor).
That picture they have for the current issue of Dragon's TOC showing someone blasting away at an Illithid while holding and orb, with a glowing headband on her head, might be one of the psion.
Ooo...maybe we'll have orb and circlet implements. Where is this pic now?
Ooo...maybe we'll have orb and circlet implements. Where is this pic now?
Yep it looks like a Psion YAY!!! FINALLY!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drtoc/377
why? three letters; B, R, C. that's right, burce robert cordell.
After all the firing at wotc, he's still arround drawing a pay check?
Redonkulous!
I will never forget or forgive what he did with 3.0 psionics, or what he admitted to in his "AUTHOR'S INTERVIEW...
That writting psionics would be "too hard" so he just "coppied stuff about wizzards". Yes, he admitted to plagarizing phb content to make 3.0 psi.
I won't forgive him for putting his name on a dargon magazine article for "psionic feats" that 'fix' the psion... that were originally created by message board posters!
I won't forgive him for selling a book that was an ADMITTED PLAGARIZATION FROM THE CORE RULES then using MALHAVOC PRESS to publish additional "fix it" books for the psionics system he royaly *BOTCHED*.
In his own words, He refered to playing a psion in 4th ed as a WIZARD WITH THE SERIAL NUMBERS FILLED OFF...
SO I ASK somebody at WOTC, especially ANYONE WHO IS INVOLVED WITH PSIONICS FOR 4e...
why is his name even with ten feet of a D&D product, let ALONE anything involving psionics?
4th ed has thrown out a lot of legacy issues and sacred cows? why not get rid of someone who can't write about psionics, because it would be too hard?
FRESH IDEAS, FRESH CONCEPTS, is what psionics needs- not a rehash remix of the wizzard class *PLAGARIZED* from the core rule books.
I am not sorry about this rant people. The art image shows me nothing different from the 3.0 psion. That is why I am angry. I was writting a psionics book for 3.5 before 4th came out. the gsl bars reproducing content published from 3rd as 4th ed materials. Since I never got it out there, I will do the "HARD" work and make it for 4th ed. I have no other choice but to publish it now. after all, BRC once posted a reply to those who hatted 3.0/3.5 psi...
it summed up as, "You aren't allowed an opinion until you publish it."
Yep it looks like a Psion YAY!!! FINALLY!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drtoc/377
Oh.
I really hope the class doesn't turn out as cheesy as that picture looks.
I absolutely love psionics, but the thing that almost ruined 3.5 psionics for me was the fireballs, lightning bolts, rays of light, ectoplasm, and magic items. I was hoping for something a little more psi-fi. Something in the vein of Psi-Ops, StarCraft, or Firefly/Serenity. I know it's not high fantasy, but we already have Clerics, Paladins, Warlocks, Wizards, Avengers, Bards, Druids, Invokers, and Shamans. Energy blasts, conjurations, and flashes of divine light are already covered. Okay?
So please, God, don't let them give us another telemental in wizard's clothing...
In his own words, He refered to playing a psion in 4th ed as a WIZARD WITH THE SERIAL NUMBERS FILLED OFF..
Early in 4th Edition, possibly before it hit the shelves, because the psionic power source wasn't even a gleam in a developer's eye and the campaign in question had chose to convert old 3e characters. Wizard was the closest fit to psion.
You are ranting over nothing.
Really? Never seemed all that interesting to me. Furthermore, their main shticks (being naturally psionic and inherently immortal) are no longer viable and/or relevant. Psionics wont' be a separate system so it doesn't need races specifically crafted for it, and all PCs achieve immortality of some sort as part of their epic destiny.
Also, we already have one looks human but isn't "psionic" race in the form of Eberron's Kalashtar, do we really need another? (certanly not so soon as PHB3) What unique elements would elans bring to the table to set them apart?
I quite liked the Maenad.
Sure it was based on Wizards. Didn't stop them from having a different feel though.
The 4e Psion'll likely resemble the Wizard again for the same reason Invokers resemble wizards: they're both controllers.
The new art, however, leaves me feeling nothing but apathy.
Am I the only one here who thought the 3.5 Psion was good?
Sure it was based on Wizards. Didn't stop them from having a different feel though.
The 4e Psion'll likely resemble the Wizard again for the same reason Invokers resemble wizards: they're both controllers.
Well, as good as things could get in 3.5, at least. That was what the game needed of the class; a wizard-clone, so that's what was made.
Why do people keep suggesting that the soulknife might/should be merged with the psychic warrior? To me the soulknife has always seemed to have more in common with classes like the rogue or monk (both now strikers), while psychic warriors have seemed to have more in common with fighters and paladins (both now defenders)...
Yeah, I just brought it up as an either/or since people were talking about it. I have no strong inclinations either way. I think the feeling is that since Monks are Psionic Strikers, there's more need to distinguish both the Psychic Warrior (who's very similar to a Swordmage) by fusing certain Soulknife concepts like mindblades. Separate you have a Psionic Swordmage and a Psionic Rogue, together it might look and feel like something different. Again, I don't care either way. It's also more likely that Psionics will have four classes (Divine, Primal, Martial) than six (Arcane), just based on the trend.* In fact, if you only include the Player's Guide I and II, you're down to four per power source. Not saying Psionics can't have five classes, just that it's less likely.
*Quick List
Martial: Fighter (PG1), Warlord (PG1), Ranger (PG1), Rogue (PG1)
Divine: Paladin (PG1), Cleric (PG1), Avenger (PG2), Invoker (PG2)
Primal: Warden (PG2), Shaman (PG2), Barbarian (PG2), Druid (PG2)
Arcane: Swordmage (FRPG), Bard (PG2), Artificer (EPG), Warlock (PG1), Sorcerer (PG2), Wizard (PG1)
In his own words, He refered to playing a psion in 4th ed as a WIZARD WITH THE SERIAL NUMBERS FILLED OFF..
Early in 4th Edition, possibly before it hit the shelves, because the psionic power source wasn't even a gleam in a developer's eye and the campaign in question had chose to convert old 3e characters. Wizard was the closest fit to psion.
You are ranting over nothing.
Agreed. This is totally misquoted and weakens your entire point. By all means, be critical, but don't make stuff up. He was referring to trying to convert a Psion before there were 4e rules. It was in fact before the Core books had even come out. Fail.
I have no strong inclinations either way. I think the feeling is that since Monks are Psionic Strikers, there's more need to distinguish both the Psychic Warrior (who's very similar to a Swordmage) by fusing certain Soulknife concepts like mindblades. Separate you have a Psionic Swordmage and a Psionic Rogue, together it might look and feel like something different. Again, I don't care either way.
Could be. Personally I'm fine with psychic warrior (preferably renamed) being the psionic equivalent to divine's paladin and arcane's swordmage. I certainly don't see any good reason to graft an ability like mindblades onto a what I see as a defender class.
Furthermore, the ability to form a WEAPON out of psionic energy seems far more appropriate to a striker. Now that the monk is "psionic" and given the power structure of 4E, it seems to me that the most significant distinction between the monk and the soulknife would likely be the mindblade. This is why I would much prefer to see the soulknife updated to 4E as a variant monk build, with the mindblade replacing improved unarmed strike.
He only marks one guy at a time, but the mark lasts(save ends) and imposes a -4 to attacks because of his intrusion in the marks head, or the defender can apply a penalty to the save based on a secondary stat. This is due to the defender compelling the guy to stay focused on him. Because the defender can only mark one guy at a time stacking save ends penalties wouldn't be broken, as a fighter would be able to do the same thing by missing every turn.
Well, as good as things could get in 3.5, at least. That was what the game needed of the class; a wizard-clone, so that's what was made.
I am not attacking you Salla, I do respect your opinion, However...
I can not disagree more. The game does not need another variation/clone of the wizard class. if they go this route with the psion, I am going to have to publish a "psionicist" class. What does concern me greatly is that the GSL does not allow "redefinition" so I won't be able to do anything about the nature of the psionic power source... or the psion, or anything from PHB 3.
Just as how other writers are barred from calling their "ki" ideas the "monk" class.
I can offer an alternative, but only in the guise of a suppliment to what they do with psionics...
so if 4th ed psionics goes the route of the vomitous "wizard in drag", we just changed "buzz words". we all will have plenty to be mad about.
Well, as good as things could get in 3.5, at least. That was what the game needed of the class; a wizard-clone, so that's what was made.
I am not attacking you Salla, I do respect your opinion, However...
I can not disagree more. The game does not need another variation/clone of the wizard class. if they go this route with the psion, I am going to have to publish a "psionicist" class. What does concern me greatly is that the GSL does not allow "redefinition" so I won't be able to do anything about the nature of the psionic power source... or the psion, or anything from PHB 3.
Just as how other writers are barred from calling their "ki" ideas the "monk" class.
I can offer an alternative, but only in the guise of a suppliment to what they do with psionics...
so if 4th ed psionics goes the route of the vomitous "wizard in drag", we just changed "buzz words". we all will have plenty to be mad about.
Furthermore, the ability to form a WEAPON out of psionic energy seems far more appropriate to a striker. Now that the monk is "psionic" and given the power structure of 4E, it seems to me that the most significant distinction between the monk and the soulknife would likely be the mindblade. This is why I would much prefer to see the soulknife updated to 4E as a variant monk build, with the mindblade replacing improved unarmed strike.
The soulknife deserves to be it's own class that's also a Psionic Striker. And there's certainly enough room for another Psionic Striker, since we already have two different Martial Strikers and two different Arcane Strikers and Arcane Leaders.
The soulknife deserves to be it's own class that's also a Psionic Striker. And there's certainly enough room for another Psionic Striker, since we already have two different Martial Strikers and two different Arcane Strikers and Arcane Leaders.
I'm not opposed to a distinct soulknife class. I personally just don't see how it would be mechanically distinct from the now psionic monk class, other than by having a mindblade instead of an unarmed strike.
Also, what powers would a soulknife class have that wouldn't theoretically work with a mundane weapon?
They have a weapon that can break the rules of physics.
They can do a lot of things beyond the obligatory weapon attacks vs. will, such as creating a copy of the mindblade floating in the air that could attack or defend for a round. Throwing a mindblade that multiples into many different copies and showers an area with mindblades, or hits one target and flies to another target before reappearing in a soulknifes hand. Or creating a whirlwind of orbitting mindblades.
Is it possible you could create such a character mechanically using what we have of the Monk class? I have a few points you guys can dissect and tear apart as you see fit.
- Since monks can "enchant" their fists, couldn't you enchant yours with whatever energy type you want, then describe it in-game however you like? You have a +3 proficiency bonus with 1d8 damage, kinda like a longsword that's always there...
- Many of the monk's powers allow you to do damage with various energy types, and the full discipline powers give you access to a lot of cool movement techniques that just scream "mindblade" to me.
- Masterful Spiral allows you to increase your reach, which could be an "I extend my mindblade" kind of thing.
And to get the effects that KoboldAvenger talks about, you could multiclass into Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Invoker. You know, a little ranged punch to go with all that up-close, butt-whupping goodness.
Anyway, just a few thoughts on how you could create a mindblade using what we have in case WotC decides not to include such a class. What do ya'll think?
Oh.
I really hope the class doesn't turn out as cheesy as that picture looks.
I absolutely love psionics, but the thing that almost ruined 3.5 psionics for me was the fireballs, lightning bolts, rays of light, ectoplasm, and magic items. I was hoping for something a little more psi-fi. Something in the vein of Psi-Ops, StarCraft, or Firefly/Serenity. I know it's not high fantasy, but we already have Clerics, Paladins, Warlocks, Wizards, Avengers, Bards, Druids, Invokers, and Shamans. Energy blasts, conjurations, and flashes of divine light are already covered. Okay?
So please, God, don't let them give us another telemental in wizard's clothing...
Huh...what energy blasts? To me that picture shows a psion DEFLECTING an energy blast with his bare hands.
- Since monks can "enchant" their fists, couldn't you enchant yours with whatever energy type you want, then describe it in-game however you like? You have a +3 proficiency bonus with 1d8 damage, kinda like a longsword that's always there...
That's a good start, though I prefer a more mechanical variant. As you pointed out the monk's standard unarmed combatant class feature is already vary much like a longsword. As such an alternate soulblade class feature could easily follow ruffly as such.
[INDENT]Choose any simple or military weapon. As a minor action, you can manifest a weapon made of psionic energy that is treated in all ways as the selected weapon. You are proficient with your soulblade, even if you would not otherwise be proficient with the selected weapon and you can use it as a monk implement. You can only manifest one soulblade at a time.
Feats or other abilities that modify the action used to draw a weapon also modify the action used to manifest your soulblade. If you drop your soulblade or become disarmed it disappears, though you may manifest it again at any time as minor action. If you throw your soulblade it disappears after resolving the attack.
Your soulblade can be enchanted as if it were a weapon of the selected kind. An enchanted soulblade does not disappear after being thrown if you allow it to return to your hand.[/INDENT]
Feats could then be used to allow a character to acquire the ability to transform their soulblade into different weapons (including superior weapons), or become able to manifest to manifest two soulblades at once.
LietUnderwood, Salla was talking about the 3.5 Psion, NOT the 4e one. We don't know the 4e one yet.
Huh...what energy blasts? To me that picture shows a psion DEFLECTING an energy blast with his bare hands.
Right. I was referring to the 3.5 variant. You know, "Energy Ball/Blast/Wall/Retort" and all that other stuff. Sorry for the ambiguity.
And I agree, Tharag. It would be nice to see it. I was just scrabbling for something in case we don't actually get a class. But I hope we do...
The soulknife deserves to be it's own class that's also a Psionic Striker. And there's certainly enough room for another Psionic Striker, since we already have two different Martial Strikers and two different Arcane Strikers and Arcane Leaders.
There are two Martial Strikers, but no Martial Controller. As for the Arcane classes, there are 4 (Leader, Striker, Striker, Controller) in the PHB and PHBII and 2 are found in campaign books (FRPG, EPG). So it's doubtful we'll see more than 4 classes per source in a single book. Think about it:
PHB: 4 Martial, 2 Divine, 2 Arcane
PHBII: 4 Primal, 2 Divine, 2 Arcane
Assuming they've exhausted those sources, and considering that I can't think of a specific setting where a Psionic class is likely to be brought in, it's likely that it'll look like this:
PHBIII: 4 Psionic, 4 Shadow(?)*
*or whatever else fills these slots.
That said, I've heard rumblings that the Assassin (Shadow Striker) will be an exclusive DDI release, so they may release a Psionic class that way. Otherwise, the pattern seems too secure for them to suddenly change:
PHB: 8 classes, Campaign PG: 1 class, [Source] Power: 0 classes.
They haven't broken that pattern yet, and we're 7 books in already (2 PHB, 2 CPG, 3 Power books).
That said we might end up getting a Defender, Controller, and 2 Strikers (Psychic Warrior, Psion, Monk, Soulknife). There's really no established psionic class that fills the leader roll, per se. That said, I would rather an innovative new Leader class (Yogi/Guru?? I'll even take a well-designed Empath) than having the Soulknife (another sneaky, big damage class? Rogue and Assassin not good enough?).
PHB: 4 Martial, 2 Divine, 2 Arcane
PHBII: 4 Primal, 2 Divine, 2 Arcane
Assuming they've exhausted those sources, and considering that I can't think of a specific setting where a Psionic class is likely to be brought in, it's likely that it'll look like this:
PHBIII: 4 Psionic, 4 Shadow(?)*
You really haven't seen the PHBIII cover yet? There's no shadow and at least 1 divine and 1 primal class in it.
And to get the effects that KoboldAvenger talks about, you could multiclass into Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Invoker. You know, a little ranged punch to go with all that up-close, butt-whupping goodness.
That's hardly the point of the soulknife class, one of it's biggest things were that it has a weapon that can be used both in melee and at range. Throw mindblade was a major part of the soulknife along with psychic strike.
That's one of the major reasons why the Soulknife is special, rather than something that can already be filled out by a Swordmage.
You really haven't seen the PHBIII cover yet? There's no shadow and at least 1 divine and 1 primal class in it.
Doesn't matter, and doesn't change the pattern. It'll probably be 4 Psionic, 2 Primal, and 2 Divine (don't know how they'll squeeze out more Divine characters, they were already grabbing at straws with the Avenger and Invoker... maybe a Friar, Diviner, Canter, Deacon-er, Erererer). There's just no precedent to tossing in 5+ for one source. They obviously held back Divine characters for 2 books and Primal characters for 1 book just to keep things balanced.
Maybe Player's Handbook IV?
Also, what powers would a soulknife class have that wouldn't theoretically work with a mundane weapon?
My personal view is that the soulknife should be constantly reshaping his weapon to fit the situation(each shape being a power), so he can reshape it into a two pronged sword to hit the two enemies near him, and then change it into a handheld battering ram to send one of them flying towards the fighter on his next turn. Of course my view of them is probably non standard(I see them as controllers). Also I don't think they would work at will the psionic power source and am hoping they are held over for what I'm hoping is an eventual revival of the ki power source.....but I'm not going to hold my breath on any of these hopes.
I am not attacking you Salla, I do respect your opinion, However...
I can not disagree more. The game does not need another variation/clone of the wizard class. if they go this route with the psion, I am going to have to publish a "psionicist" class. What does concern me greatly is that the GSL does not allow "redefinition" so I won't be able to do anything about the nature of the psionic power source... or the psion, or anything from PHB 3.
Just as how other writers are barred from calling their "ki" ideas the "monk" class.
I can offer an alternative, but only in the guise of a suppliment to what they do with psionics...
so if 4th ed psionics goes the route of the vomitous "wizard in drag", we just changed "buzz words". we all will have plenty to be mad about.
Please actually READ my post, and notice the consistent use of the past tense.
Also I don't think they would work at will the psionic power source and am hoping they are held over for what I'm hoping is an eventual revival of the ki power source.....but I'm not going to hold my breath on any of these hopes.
As much as I'd love to see the ki power source reimplemented, if an updated soulknife shows up as a KI class now that the monk is PSIONIC then I will :headexplo
Here's an interesting thought on a Psionic Defender
He only marks one guy at a time, but the mark lasts(save ends) and imposes a -4 to attacks because of his intrusion in the marks head, and/or the defender can apply a penalty to the save based on a secondary stat. This is due to the defender compelling the guy to stay focused on him. Because the defender can only mark one guy at a time stacking save ends penalties wouldn't be broken, as a fighter would be able to do the same thing by missing every turn.
I'm not opposed to a distinct soulknife class. I personally just don't see how it would be mechanically distinct from the now psionic monk class, other than by having a mindblade instead of an unarmed strike.
I would make it all about the obfuscation. Make it the most stealthy class to date, with the most impressive ability to go invisible, stealth, sneak, gain cover and concealment, blind opponents, and so on. The very ability of creating a weapon from your mind instead of carrying one SCREAMS stealth and obfuscation. Think of assassins that WANT to get captured, to get close to someone else in a prison to kill them. The mark is shanked, and there is no evidence of the perp. That focus on sneaky tactics goes for attacks, feats, utilities, et al.
Monks have their mobility options galore, and they also have a penchant for close burst melee attacks. Let them keep the AoE goodness to themselves in the Psionic power source, and allow the mindblade (which I prefer as the class name over soulknife) to instead focus more heavily on single target attacks.
As much as I'd love to see the ki power source reimplemented, if an updated soulknife shows up as a KI class now that the monk is PSIONIC then I will :headexplo
Well based off of my understanding/guesses of how the ki and psionic powers are working, the monk is a better fit for psionic then it is for ki and the soulknife is a better fit for ki. Frankly I will probably scream bloody murder if the soulknife appears as any kind of psionic option because it just doesn't make any sense as being psionic(or at least 4th edition psioncs....once again based on my understand/guesses of how 4th edition psionics are going to be explained).
I would make it all about the obfuscation. Make it the most stealthy class to date, with the most impressive ability to go invisible, stealth, sneak, gain cover and concealment, blind opponents, and so on. The very ability of creating a weapon from your mind instead of carrying one SCREAMS stealth and obfuscation. Think of assassins that WANT to get captured, to get close to someone else in a prison to kill them. The mark is shanked, and there is no evidence of the perp. That focus on sneaky tactics goes for attacks, feats, utilities, et al.
Being able to kill someone with your brain is hardly a feature unique to the mindblade. Has stealth ever been a big feature of the mindblade's ability suite? I imagine going balls-to-the-wall with stealthy sneekery would tread quite a bit on the toes of the upcoming assassin, considering he's a stealthy killer who commands the power of darkness itself.
I imagine going balls-to-the-wall with stealthy sneekery would tread quite a bit on the toes of the upcoming assassin, considering he's a stealthy killer who commands the power of darkness itself.
Ah, yes. Quite an astute observation, Dr. Lumpycakes.
Well based off of my understanding/guesses of how the ki and psionic powers are working, the monk is a better fit for psionic then it is for ki and the soulknife is a better fit for ki. Frankly I will probably scream bloody murder if the soulknife appears as any kind of psionic option because it just doesn't make any sense as being psionic(or at least 4th edition psioncs....once again based on my understand/guesses of how 4th edition psionics are going to be explained).
What is it you think the soulknife should be? Like, more soulful than a "mindblade" type?
;) Suppose a 4e update--as a feat, build, class, multiclass, whatever--said you "harness the power of your soul (etc.) and focus it with your mind" and thus are psionic. Would that work for a soulknife?
ki
Dude, are we still talking about the ki power source? No wait, nobody answer that one.
:DI've been thinking a Psionic Defender might be a stance monster. Think Psionic Battle mind kinda things. Group defense stance, slowing stance, etc, etc.
I'm curious what other Power Sources are going to get what's left of KI and how.
I've been thinking a Psionic Defender might be a stance monster. Think Psionic Battle mind kinda things. Group defense stance, slowing stance, etc, etc.
Hmm... I kind of see Primal as being the stance-centric power source. Most of the manifestations of evoking spirits involves daily stances (Wardens, Barbarians), lingering effects (Shamans), and transformations (Druid). I actually think they did a great job of drawing the power source together that way. I was skeptical about the Barbarian at first, but it fits extremely well in the scheme of things. Besides Divine (with the ubiquitous Channel Divinity), it's the most cohesive power source in terms of mechanics. I guess it's not hard to be 2 of 4...
I think the Psion will reveal everything. Obviously, besides reality-bending stunts, the Monk class didn't reveal much about the power source, which is fine. Warlocks stand out among the Arcane classes, and Warlords sort of push the boundary of Martial power. There's a black sheep in every family.
The thing about Ki is that there really wasn't much left. All of the other OA classes that might have used Ki can now fit comfortably elsewhere or just had Ki tacked on anyway. A Wu Jen fits fine in the Arcane source, though I'd love to see a new set of mechanics to make it its own class. There's lots of untapped possibilities.
For example, one can emphasize the Wu Jen's connection to the 5 elements (Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, Metal) with the use of Daily Stances that boost that element a lot, another a little, but diminish a third. Having a stance-based Arcane caster could be cool. Otherwise, it can just be a re-flavored Wizard or Sorcerer.
Sohei can be a new Divine class, or just a halberd-wielding Paladin. Shugenja are Clerics, since there's no distinction between a spontaneous and studied caster. They'd need significant redesigns to really stand out and be worthy of new classes. Paragon paths, definitely.
Samurai is a Fighter. That's all there is to that. Ninja? Assassin, Rogue, or Monk. Maybe add some unique feats. Shaman has core class that was influenced by the OA Shaman, and just needs re-flavoring.
So there you go Wu Jen (Arcane), Shaman (Primal), Sohei and Shugenja (Divine), Samurai (Martial), Monk (Psionic), Ninja (Shadow, Martial, or Psionic).
Ki is dead. Long live Ki.
What is it you think the soulknife should be? Like, more soulful than a "mindblade" type?
My view on psionics as it is going to be in 4th edition is that it is going to be based on movement aka using your animus to its fullest capability. Creating objects, like a mindblade, just doesn't make any sense in that context of psionics. I mean it is entirely possible that they aren't going to go with this view of psionics, but my gut says that this is at least what they were originally intending to do with it, and in my opinion it is one of the best ways to go about doing psionics within the 4ed default fluff.
Suppose a 4e update--as a feat, build, class, multiclass, whatever--said you "harness the power of your soul (etc.) and focus it with your mind" and thus are psionic. Would that work for a soulknife?
That would be a ki option....because you know every power source harnesses the power of something and then focuses it with your mind(with the possible exception of the barbarian). :P
When I look at the Monk I see Masterful Spiral, Centered Defense, Way of the Winter Wind, Meditative Solace, Watchful Hydra Technique, and Mist on the Storm.
That's a lot of attack triggers stance powers. What if the Psionic classes all do this. ie. Triggered Stances, special benefits, etc. Imagine a Defender class that has something like the Monks Full Dicipline but they get minor action stance triggers. Nice eh?
I hate to disrupt the flow of ideas here, but could I get some feedback on the feasibility of this idea
Here's an interesting thought on a Psionic Defender
He only marks one guy at a time, but the mark lasts(save ends) and imposes a -4 to attacks because of his intrusion in the marks head, and/or the defender can apply a penalty to the save based on a secondary stat. This is due to the defender compelling the guy to stay focused on him. Because the defender can only mark one guy at a time stacking save ends penalties wouldn't be broken, as a fighter would be able to do the same thing by missing every turn.
If the psionic defender is going to impose the marked condition on a target, it will have the same effect as the marked condition as outlined on p. 277 of the PHB. That is the target will take a -2 penalty only on attacks that do not include the creature that marked it. I see no reason mechanics-wise to make one mark be different than every other mark. It's like if you blind someone, but your blinded condition is different than everyone else's blinded condition. Does not make sense to make marked condition different for every class or creature. It's good to be consistent.
I see no reason to having it last until he saves. All of the other marked conditions tend to last until the end of the defender's next turn unless you do something to sustain it (like Divine Challenge). Why make it a save ends effect? Why not just make it last until the end of the defender's turn? Your proposed marking power is only usable on only one target at a time anyway, so I do not see how making it a save ends effect is going to benefit anyone. It just slows the game down because now the target has to roll another save every turn.
If the psionic defender is going to impose the marked condition on a target, it will have the same effect as the marked condition as outlined on p. 277 of the PHB. That is the target will take a -2 penalty only on attacks that do not include the creature that marked it. I see no reason mechanics-wise to make one mark be different than every other mark. It's like if you blind someone, but your blinded condition is different than everyone else's blinded condition. Does not make sense to make marked condition different for every class or creature. It's good to be consistent.
I see no reason to having it last until he saves. All of the other marked conditions tend to last until the end of the defender's next turn unless you do something to sustain it (like Divine Challenge). Why make it a save ends effect? Why not just make it last until the end of the defender's turn? Your proposed marking power is only usable on only one target at a time anyway, so I do not see how making it a save ends effect is going to benefit anyone. It just slows the game down because now the target has to roll another save every turn.
First of all, thank you for responding.
I was thinking of a mind controlling defender, where he not only does the one-on-one thing that the standard defender does, but increases the incentives to stay on this one psionic defender. This guy causes heavy disctraction in his mark for ignoring him(-4 to attack). The save ends would let him act sort of like the sheilding swordmage where he marks and then backs off.
I was just looking for some psionic/mental way of marking someone other than just calling someone out and taunting them.
The save ends would let them mark, apply a penalty and walk away, thus encouraging them to stay away from the guys the defender is defending. I guess that's more isolating than defending.
Thanks for the remarks anyways, even if it was a fruitless thought.
For all I know, their marking ability might as well be called "Psionic Focus".
From the 3e psychic warrior I saw mainly two types of powers, either body manipulation or enhanced senses. Which generally corresponded to psychometabolism and clairsentience. I could see the 2 builds for the class going those ways.
If the Psionic Defender looks like a Jedi Knight I'm going to laugh my ass off...then play one.
If the psionic defender looks like a Jedi knight I might revive my abandoned Star Wars campaign using 4e rules.
If the psionic defender looks like a Jedi knight I might revive my abandoned Star Wars campaign using 4e rules.
This is the first thing some kids I know did when 4E came out.
They didn't even know about Star Wars Saga Edition.
They have a weapon that can break the rules of physics.
They can do a lot of things beyond the obligatory weapon attacks vs. will, such as creating a copy of the mindblade floating in the air that could attack or defend for a round. Throwing a mindblade that multiples into many different copies and showers an area with mindblades, or hits one target and flies to another target before reappearing in a soulknifes hand. Or creating a whirlwind of orbitting mindblades.
Again, I have to ask why a Psionic Melee wouldn't be able to do these things with a normal weapon.
The idea that a weapon leaves "echoes", or the wielder messes around with fate to be in more than one place at once isn't far-fetched, and making ranged attacks with a melee weapon via telekenesis even less.
My personal view is that the soulknife should be constantly reshaping his weapon to fit the situation(each shape being a power), so he can reshape it into a two pronged sword to hit the two enemies near him, and then change it into a handheld battering ram to send one of them flying towards the fighter on his next turn.
How would these different weapon forms be different from reflavoured PsiWar attacks? To use your examples, a melee attack that hits multiple targets (Fate alteration, haste, deep strike ect.) followed up with a telekenetic burst?
About Marking:
I like the idea of a save-ends mark, but I'd rather see it kept for the Shadow Defender as some sort of curse or disease.
If the Psi defender gets an active mark then it'd be interesting having it Sustained.
If the Psionic Defender looks like a Jedi Knight I'm going to laugh my ass off...then play one.
Seconded :D
How would these different weapon forms be different from reflavoured PsiWar attacks? To use your examples, a melee attack that hits multiple targets (Fate alteration, haste, deep strike ect.) followed up with a telekenetic burst?
....If you want to go that far then it isn't. However if you are going to reflavor to that extent then there is no need for the psion as I can refluff everything the psion does into a wizard power.....with a lot less effort than you had to go through to get that.
It also means that, in theory, he can have two, or even three targets marked, but it takes attention away from moving or attackng- a mechanic that, IMO, works better with Psionics than any other powersource.
If the Psionic Defender looks like a Jedi Knight I'm going to laugh my ass off...then play one.
I always felt that jedi made more sense as an arcane power source.
The Force is the same as the Weave of the Font of Magic or w/e.
And swordmages make excellent Jedi-knights, especially if you use a Brilliant Energy weapon.
I always felt that jedi made more sense as an arcane power source.
The Force is the same as the Weave of the Font of Magic or w/e.
And swordmages make excellent Jedi-knights, especially if you use a Brilliant Energy weapon.
Nah. The force is psionic powers attained through symbiotic relationship with a psychically-active microorganism.
Nah. The force is psionic powers attained through symbiotic relationship with a psychically-active microorganism.
Eh, it works that way, too.
And I must admit, the Monk does make a pretty cool unarmed Jedi in my opinion.
-Power points and augmented powers
-Psionic Focus class features
-Emphasis on telepathy and telekinesis (though there is a paragon path with a fire-based ability at high levels...)
-Lots of at-wills, which can be swapped out for more powerful ones as you level.
At first glance, the Psion seems really radically different and jarring, but if you really give it some time and look at it carefully, it's not so bad. All the basic building blocks are there, they just look a bit different. The Feature on them also indicates that most Psionic classes will look more like the Psion than the Monk, so it looks like the Power Point system will find its way into the Psychic Warrior and Psionic Leader classes.
Speculate!
Such as deal 2 extra damage for each power point spent when augmenting a power.
When you are out of power points you gain a +2 bonus to attacks with your at-will powers.
I suspect that one class might have an additional special benefit when spending power points, and another special benefit when out of power points.
Such as deal 2 extra damage for each power point spent when augmenting a power.
When you are out of power points you gain a +2 bonus to attacks with your at-will powers.
I could see those being feats, but probably not class features.
Half-elf, dillenette from a PP using class: Your Dillenette level 1 at-will can be Augmented with power points, if you have any. (For a feat, you can basically nab an encounter power from another class)
Human: Your human at-will can be Augmented with power points. (for a feat, you basically have Tome of Readyness)