I started this thread, and had a few things I wanted to say that I felt were crucial parts needed to flesh out the game. Then I was going to look at the upcoming products so I can also say "And what they're going to release in the next few months is lacking in content" to add to my wishlist/rant... and after I read the product list everything I was going to say got completely negated because they're making everything I was planning on listing.
Consider me a happy man!
But I know there are people itching for something - so say it here!
I really want to see a Bladesinger paragon path
I really want to see a expaned list of Dragons...shadow, and gem, and mettalic please.
I really want spell jammer and darksun back
Here's the things I want to see most.
Functional rules for Evil characters. Amoung other things, I'd like my evil NPC priests to have access to Channel Divinity feats.
Spelljammer. I like space opera, and I like fantasy, and I like Fantasy Space Opera. And giant hampsters.
Ravenloft. The Domain of Dread needs a supliment. Maybe 2012.
I want to see more Multiclass options.
I want to see more builds. As in, different class option power builds, like the Dark Pact they added in FRPG, or like the Beastmaster Ranger that's supposed to be comming in Martial Powers.
I would want the PP and ED's for the Ninja and other sideways classes that tend to be stretched in the previous editions.
I would also think that options for the already existing classes in PP and ED and with feats wouldn't be out of the question.
Unfortunately, it seems that this will be a PHB4 or PHB5 instead...
-Technology: Lets see something like Alchemy or Rituals but dealing with technology as well as lots of different technological items from Davinci to say Victorian.
-Psionics: I have always liked Psionics and I hope they have fun Victorian pseudo-scientific terminology.
-Something similar to Skill Trick. Most of this is already covered but it be neat to see how 4e would do it, since I adored this in 3.5
-A Indian-Mythology setting. It be lots of fun since there is such a wealth of resources there. Plus, if we get technology, I really want to play a game where a group of British soldiers (PCs) begin to uncover the supernatural side of India as they integrate deeper into the culture/country during their deployment.
Functional rules for Evil characters. Amoung other things, I'd like my evil NPC priests to have access to Channel Divinity feats.
Actually, a handbook for Evil characters does seem like a good future product. (Vile Darkness 4E?) It would contain stuff like divinity feats for evil gods, some more evil-themed powers, paragon paths, or epic destinies, and full write-ups and feats for some of the monstrous races like orcs, goblins, kobolds, and such.
It is a game of Heroes against those that make trouble for the little guy.
The game in the new edition is more so in this direction, a heroic character against the world, making things right. I don't think an Evil supplement would be productive to the game.
Lets see more insidious, behind the scenes kinds of evil. Less Vile Darkness more World of Darkness.
I would like to see talk of how the churches/faiths in D&D are much more murky then it seems, with Good God Clerics and Paladins performing distasteful deeds in the name of their god (D&D version of Spanish Inquisition). Or, talk more about backroom deals between various kingdoms in the sale of weaponry, drugs, slaves, etc.
Lets see feats/PPs for ways to hide ones less-savoury attributes, ie: Evil Cleric can disguise oneself as a Good Cleric.
This is the kind of Evil Supplement I would like.
If they do a DMGII next year, I'd really like to see it have a big section in the back: Dark Magics, Things to F with your PCs.
Detailing rules for Channel Divinity: Bane Fs you Up, and Channel Divinity: Tiamats Breath of Uber Killing.
Detailing rules for Dark Rituals, like HAHAHA I can make Undead (Lvl 5 ritual) or Curse (lvl ?)
Basically, the big list of all the rules for things that PCs could do in 3.X that GOOD PCs shouldn't do.
Sorry, but playing evil characters was part of the problematic game breaking headaches for DM's that wanted the true D&D experience.
It is a game of Heroes against those that make trouble for the little guy.
The game in the new edition is more so in this direction, a heroic character against the world, making things right. I don't think an Evil supplement would be productive to the game.
Right, I agree with that. What I really want is DM rules for that stuff, so I can use it for my Villains.
I am positively *dying* to see the Shaman class which purportedly is coming out in March in the PHB2. I have very high hopes for it, as the concept of shamans is key to the aforementioned homebrew setting...
I want to see Dark Sun come back in style, and also have very high hopes about it in 4e.
I would like to see more "generic" adventures... I hope Revenge of the Giants and Dungeon Delve will be designed to be easily inserted into people's campaigns.
I am very curious to see if WotC will come out with a 4e version of supplements following the lines of the "Heroes of..." Series. One of my favourite supplements from 3.5 was Heroes of Horror.
Finally, I hope they come out with a Book of Aberrations (like Lords of Madness) after Open Grave and the Draconomicon. Lords of Madness was my other favourite supplement.
C
Sorry, but playing evil characters was part of the problematic game breaking headaches for DM's that wanted the true D&D experience.
It is a game of Heroes against those that make trouble for the little guy.
The game in the new edition is more so in this direction, a heroic character against the world, making things right. I don't think an Evil supplement would be productive to the game.
I do agree that Evil games are more difficult to do well than Good games, and require more care on the part of the DM and players. Turning the players loose in an Evil game does frequently end in a parade of random pointless atrocities and mass destruction of NPCs (and even fellow PCs as they stab each other in the back), which may not be everyone's cup of tea.
That's why if they did do the Evil Handbook, they should include some DM/player guidelines for avoiding some of the common pitfalls of Evil games (for instance, getting all the characters to cooperate and ways on how to motivate them to complete quests).
- Something like the above but with tips and examples for making our own campaign settings. I've made one before but it always had to be quite vague to begin with and flesh out over time and I kept forgetting things I made up earlier so a book to help me flesh things out before we start playing would be nice.
- Something like the above but for making our own adventures.
These could be done bit by bit with subsequent DMGs, but full books on them would be nice.
- If at all possible(though I doubt it) perhaps a supplement with variant or additional rules like Unearthed Acrana 3.5e, but for 4e. This one might actually be a bad idea, since I actually like the way 4e is currently set up.
The return of class; binder, the totemist (from magic of icarnum), the knight, the class of complete psionic, archivist (from Tome of Horror).
A setting of 1001 nights (Oriental Adventures players handbook II) + Al-Qadim DM Guide.
A book of feys with a lot of cool fey monsters, and other about aberration (the 4th ed. book of madness).
Gundpodwer weapons.
A ki class with a favor of jedi/sith style.
Centaur PC race, and avariel (winged elves, perhaps in Faerun player handbook II), raptorans, chitine (spider-like), lupine (wolf "furry"), catfolk...
The return of all true dragons (metalic, chromatic, gem, lung/oriental, planar...)
And to expand on the Indian mythology setting - really, just any setting other than the common fantasy and oriental settings. "Native Americas" (North/South, ranging from Cherokee to Inca), Indian, whatever. So much rich mythology to draw from, and a good contrast.
Giant Space Hampsters
Dire Penguins
Dire Rabbits
Chartruese Dragons.
The Factotum
The Shadowdancer
Alternate Multiclass feats
The 4e Book of Vile Darkness
paragon and epic level Channel divinity feats
Alternate heroic level Channel Divinity feats
A Mounted Class of some sort.
More Controllers
The Shuegenja
Evil God Channel Divinity Feats
i think that the Truenamer would be a worthy addition to 4e and would work better mechanically (maybe another arcane striker)
Also
eventhough they are sort of pointless with the new 4e mechanics i would like to see a revisit to the sorcerer and favoured soul
A warlord-like tactician, which uses ranged tricks that extend *beyond* the limit of the end of his weapon, and control the whole of the battlefield.
I do recognize that in the world of 4E powers, it could be hard to implement this so that it has the right feel. Here are some thoughts:
Maybe Wisdom-based, with several different items or terrain features as the focus. Using applications of fire, oil, caltrops, marbles, ropes and/or gunpowder to convert terrain or inflict ranged blast or burst damage.
Here are a couple examples of what I'm thinking (yeah, it needs work):
Don't Follow me!
Encounter Martial, Expendables*
Standard Action Area Close Blast 4
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: If the target fails a saving throw against this power, the target becomes prone. The terrain in the area of the blast becomes difficult
Miss: The terrain in the area of the blast becomes difficult
Effect: You may shift a number of squares up to your Wisdom bonus
Flush out the Unseen
Encounter Martial, Expendables*
Standard Action Area Close Blast 6
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: Each target takes intelligence modifier damage, and if the target is hidden invisible or unseen instantly becomes visible (save ends)
Miss: No effect
Change the Field
Daily Martial, Expendables*
Standard Action Burst 4 within 15 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[W]+Wisdom, the target is slowed (save ends). The terrain in the area of the burst becomes difficult
Miss: The terrain in the area of the burst becomes difficult
*Expendables include caltrops, marbles, or pints of oil
I don't know if this is the right board, but it DID say "here's the place to discuss ... your hopes for the future of the game" on the board description, so I'm gonna post it here.
I really want Necromancer and Illusionist classes, or at the very least I want spells from those schools.
Also, I want them to publish Rich Burlew's campaign setting (one of the runner-ups to Eberron).
I just like the idea of a class that focus on the basics, At Wills, over other, more specialized attacks.
Additionally, I think a couple of the primary reasons why DM's often have trouble with campaigns involving evil PC's are that for one thing, players often have a narrow view of the personalities and goals that are acceptable for evil characters, restricting themselves to over the top blood, gore and murder. Another is that there's been very little good advice given out in D&D books about DM'ing evil PC's (the horrible travesty that was the BOVD doesn't count), and quite frankly DM's are often caught off guard by the differing themes and structures of evil campaigns and the differing goals of evil PC's.
A book dealing with these differences, as well as providing PC's with examples of how to realistically portray evil individuals would be one that I could get behind-especially if it took a couple of pages from the new world of darkness and it's approach towards both role playing and the nature of evil. And like a previous poster said, some rituals, feats, powers and other such crunch (so long as it's play tested) applying to evil and evil-leaning characters would be welcome as well.
Asian/Ki themed classes: Monk, Samurai, Ninja, Ronin, Wu-jen, etc. There are so many styles and ways that these could with the 4E style.
At the very least I think Monk as a striker would be awesome. Tattooed, Shintao...the martial arts classes could each have a style that translates into what they can do. As for Samurai, it could be based on their family heritage or tradition. Ninja styles could be based on their clan affiliation. I honestly would rather playtest one of these before a barbarian.
I would also like to see some Psionic type classes as well as they are always a bit outside the box when it comes to their powers and interesting to play.
What about classes focussed on their mounts? Dragonriders anyone?
Finally, it would be nice if there were some conversion books for those cherished realms as Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc.
i think it would be a worthwhile addition for it fill the druid ranger whole
but can lead into the hole in the pally which may be very very interesting ?? maybe a whole new class? divine striker the cavalier
Also, I want them to publish Rich Burlew's campaign setting (one of the runner-ups to Eberron).
Second that, emphatically. I would totally buy that setting if it came out. Rich Burlew rocks!
C
-- Other power sources, namely Ki and Shadow. Can't wait for those ^_^
-- More controllers! (From what i understand, this issue should get fixed with PHBII)
-- Melee Arcane Striker. Not sure why, but ever since i read about somebody who wanted this, it's been stuck in my mind too. Kinda like a sword mage assault build, but and actual striker instead of secondary striker. Could be fun
-- Unpredictable magic items! Now, this doesn't necessarily mean random effect magic items, although those would be fun too. I'm talking about items that don't necessarily have an objective value, kinda like the Decanter of Endless Water and Dust of Dryness (especially when used together!) back in 3.5. Those items were so much fun ^_^. Don't think we'll be seeing any though...
Either they should Publish both of the runner up settings, or give the rights back to the creators...
This is why, as a Proffesional Chef, I don't enter any recipe that I spent more than thirty seconds on in recipe contests. This whole concept of "Oh, by the way, if you submit something to us, we own it forever." Compelete BS in my opinion.
We need to Overhaul IP laws.
Wow, I was just reading about the whole thing about the contest.
Either they should Publish both of the runner up settings, or give the rights back to the creators...
This is why, as a Proffesional Chef, I don't enter any recipe that I spent more than thirty seconds on in recipe contests. This whole concept of "Oh, by the way, if you submit something to us, we own it forever." Compelete BS in my opinion.
We need to Overhaul IP laws.
Or wizards need to get some ****ing ethics
What would YOU like to see in a future book?
more powers, more spells, more classes, less eratta. That's all.
A big book of Multiclassing.
At least one ALTERNATE Multiclass feat per class (i.e. something other than Sneak of Shadows to start Rogue Multiclassing, etc)
Some new general multiclass feats, like the Adept Power line.
Specific extended Multiclass feats, things that rely on specific classes or powersources taking a specific MC Feat.
Paragon paths specific to certain class/MC feat combos. Like an Arcane Archer Paragon Path open to Rangers that MC into Wizard or Warlock.
And atleast 3 more Spellscared like classes (Ideally one per Powersource).
- Fey Wild settings
- Fey Dark settings
- What the #@%! Happened to the Aasimar?
- If Elf is to Drow, then Eladrin is to ?? (Bring back the Fey'ri already!)
- A generalist class like the 3.5 Factotum
- Alternative magic (3.5's psionics, magic of incarnum, & binders)
- and no version of D&D is complete without its own conversion of The Tomb of Horrors
Functional rules for Evil characters. Amoung other things, I'd like my evil NPC priests to have access to Channel Divinity feats.
Why can't they now? Don't the Drow concider Loth to be just as Divine as the Dwarves concider Moradin to be?
Do the rules for Channel Divinity state that only good aligned characters may use them?
If so why can't you just rename them to Channel Profane feats, with the same abilities?
A few things I'd like to see in future books would include:
- Fey Wild settings
- Fey Dark settings
- What the #@%! Happened to the Aasimar?
- If Elf is to Drow, then Eladrin is to ?? (Bring back the Fey'ri already!)
- A generalist class like the 3.5 Factotum
- Alternative magic (3.5's psionics, magic of incarnum, & binders)
- and no version of D&D is complete without its own conversion of The Tomb of Horrors
Fey Wild: This most likely will be somewhat covered in Manual of The Planes
Fey Dark: See above
Aasimar: They are most likely/almost definite to appear in PHB2 in the form of the Deva.
Alternative Magic: Well if you mean completely unique system that is unlikely however. There is supposed to be Primal, Psionics, Elemental, Shadow and Ki. All of which employ some manner of Supernatural force.
- a technological item book (trains, more alchemy, mecha, etc.) or at least a Science-Fantasy campaign setting (CS).
- a non-religious Martial Artist class (I've seen a 4e one in a third party book on RPGnow, but haven't played with it.)
- Asian stuff; say, a PHB ninja and a new (I said NEW) CS to that end.
I also hope 4e keeps organizing book contents well: classes & spells in PHBs, monsters in MMs (unless it's a species expansion book like the Draconomicon). Tis very nice compared to the little-bit-of-everything scattered across 3e supplements. It probably diffused designing effort as well; focus all class-making effort to PHBs only, for example, and harvest quality over quantity.
Fey Wild: This most likely will be somewhat covered in Manual of The Planes
Fey Dark: See above
Aasimar: They are most likely/almost definite to appear in PHB2 in the form of the Deva.
Alternative Magic: Well if you mean completely unique system that is unlikely however. There is supposed to be Primal, Psionics, Elemental, Shadow and Ki. All of which employ some manner of Supernatural force.
Well I know the Few Wild and Fey Dark will likely get a glorified "honorable mention" sort of description in the Manual of The Planes, but I'm hoping for a full on Fey Wild & Fey Dark "sub-setting" for Faerun much like the Underdark, Serpent Kingdoms, Shining South, etc. books in previous versions (what can I say? It was love at first die roll!).
I'm also aware of the alternative power sources, but a slight shift in mechanic that would feel more like a polished version of the old school caster (a form of picking spells, memorizing spells, etc.) would give me closure to my "this game is too easy" issues (I mean seriously a first level wizard with 30+ hp? And he can HEAL HIMSELF!? His Intelligence modifies his defense!? A small price to pay for a magic missle that can miss, but even then it really doesn't matter, Mr. Wizard can do it all day long. And we have the Cleric around for...? Hmm could've sworn we partied up with him for something...what was it? Ah maybe we brought him in for the quest to find the Hard Mode button).
I'm also aware of the alternative power sources, but a slight shift in mechanic that would feel more like a polished version of the old school caster (a form of picking spells, memorizing spells, etc.) would give me closure to my "this game is too easy" issues (I mean seriously a first level wizard with 30+ hp? And he can HEAL HIMSELF!? His Intelligence modifies his defense!? A small price to pay for a magic missle that can miss, but even then it really doesn't matter, Mr. Wizard can do it all day long. And we have the Cleric around for...? Hmm could've sworn we partied up with him for something...what was it? Ah maybe we brought him in for the quest to find the Hard Mode button).
No, we don't need Vacian casting put back into this new edition. Why, oh why would you want to limit yourself like that? Have you actually played a wizard at all, in any edition of this game?
The cleric can heal you. That is why you have more healing surges than what most classes can actually use in a day.
The one thing that 3.5 had that this new edition doesn't need, separate mechanics for a hampered/overpowered class/es. Leave that for the previous edition, and the munchkins can stay there. We will be having fun while they argue rules.
Additionally, I think a couple of the primary reasons why DM's often have trouble with campaigns involving evil PC's are that for one thing, players often have a narrow view of the personalities and goals that are acceptable for evil characters, restricting themselves to over the top blood, gore and murder. Another is that there's been very little good advice given out in D&D books about DM'ing evil PC's (the horrible travesty that was the BOVD doesn't count), and quite frankly DM's are often caught off guard by the differing themes and structures of evil campaigns and the differing goals of evil PC's.
My first (and only) campaign as a GM was inspired by my group acting like villains while justifying that it was the greater good. In my campaign, the PC's were manipulated by an NPC to overthrow the democracy they lived in and assassinate world leaders. The group even included a paladin that thought his rationalization was keeping him lawful good. When he tried to circumvent the main villain's plan by raising an army and having himself crowned king of the new government, the villain teamed up with the not quite defunct president of the old government and had him arrested for treason. This tipped my hand and let the group know that the whole thing had been a villain's campaign disguised as a hero's one. I then let them decide if they wanted to keep playing, but shift their means and goals to more noble aims. Not surprisingly, they let the campaign end there and haven't asked me to GM since. Not the best bit of GM'ing and definitely not how the new DMG suggests you should run a game.
Anyway, one of my thoughts for an interesting player class is a non-asian ki powered controller. Maybe something like a bouncer, who with just the force of his presence can hamper the movement of large groups, or knocks down tightly packed foes. Something completely new and different (at least in my limited experience).
In my experience, a well-managed Evil or morally ambiguous campaign is great fun if you have mature players who realize that
1. You don't have to be a ravening psychopath in order to be evil, nor do you need to be rude and abrasive to everyone.
2. Having your alignment change in any direction is not a punishment (or at least it shouldn't be), it's merely a marker.
I think a book helping DM's and players deal with those sorts of themes that you dealt with in your campaign would be great. Heroes of Horror had some good advice for playing morally grey (sometimes rather dark grey) heroes, and I'd love to see something similar for 4e.
Please WOTC, from the bottom of my heart I beg you to give moral ambiguity and Evil a chance!
Why do you say that that wasn't a good example of GM'ing? Sounds like an interesting campaign to me-were your players simply put off by the fact that they finally realized that they weren't really "the good guys" ? What made them not want to play anymore?
When the paladin got arrested he felt that he had been punished for following the plot. Honestly, part of the problem was that he moved the next day and I've only seen him once since. The player who knew it was an evil plot thought the campaign was great and was willing to roll up a new character just to keep playing (his character was related to the main villain and helped encourage some of the actions of the group). The campaign focused on a country that lost a war and was trying to rebuild. I based the main character on a famous historical icon that rose to power by blaming others for their problems. Once the group hit the plot twist, the idea was akin to "Oh crap, now how do we stop the psychopath we just put into power." The paladin, however, felt like he would rather have his character assassinated as a hero than defamed as a traitor. My poor GM'ing was due to the fact that I should have known the players better and that glory and honor were more important to the one player than the surprising plot twist and challenge of restitution.
I know this is fantasy, but much of popular fiction now focuses on imperfect people that strive to be better instead of the dashing hero that never performed an inappropriate action and helps others to be like him. I think a campaign setting or a DMG that goes through the idea of restitution, character pivot points, and moral awakenings for characters that delve into dirty deeds might be popular. Then again, this post suggests that a book on doing those ambiguously heroic deeds before the pivot point might also be popular. Who says the shady past has to be part of our character's backstory. The difficulty is getting the GM and the player to feel the character has hit his or her pivot point at the same time. This might be where a book could help.