Could this maybe be put up on the website somewhere or presented as an article in Dragon Magazine perhaps?
Pelor's Soup needed some pizzaz
The fonts were created by Daniel Reeve, who did the calligraphy and font design for the Lord of the Rings movies.
Supernal definitely exists. It was supposed to be revealed in the Plane Above book, but the editor/art designer of the book seems to have dropped the ball and forgot to include it for some reason. You can even figure out from context what page of the book the art piece was supposed to go on.
Supernal is sitting in a file somewhere at WotC, but due to staff turnover or for whatever reason, they seem to have forgotten that they have it.
It's killing me that this alphabet has never seen the light of day. I have been curious about it for years.
Supernal does not have an alphabet. Its written form is a system of hieroglyphs.
Isn't...isn't every alphabet ever a "system of heiroglyphs"?
Supernal does not have an alphabet. Its written form is a system of hieroglyphs.
Isn't...isn't every alphabet ever a "system of heiroglyphs"?
Hieroglyphs are ideograms, like Chinese.
Ideograms (symbol = concept) are different from alphabets (symbol = sound).
Note, hieroglyphs do reuse certain symbols alphabetically, to spell out proper names.
Supernal does not have an alphabet. Its written form is a system of hieroglyphs.
Isn't...isn't every alphabet ever a "system of heiroglyphs"?
Hieroglyphs are ideograms, like Chinese.
Ideograms (symbol = concept) are different from alphabets (symbol = sound).
Note, hieroglyphs do reuse certain symbols alphabetically, to spell out proper names.
To my understanding, egyptian heirglyphs were a set of apporosomately 24 phonetic pictograms (the number varies over the thousands of years of egyptian history), but often the writing included pictograms that for words or idioms as well.
No, actually, WotC commissioned a Supernal font to go with the other alphabets they released for Barazhad, Rellanic, Iokharic and Davek--the Primordial, elven, draconic and dwarven scripts respectively.
I never denied there was a 'Supernal font' out there somewhere. Just that it would not be an alphabet.
Isn't...isn't every alphabet ever a "system of heiroglyphs"?
No. Alphabets and hieroglyphic systems are fundamentally different.
Hieroglyphic systems use symbols to represent words or concepts, with no connection between what a word sounds like when spoken and what it looks like when written down. You can know how to 'decode' a hieroglyphic script, but still have no idea how to actually speak the words aloud. For example, you're in a hotel in a foreign country and you see a sign that shows a human figure running, with an arrow pointing towards a rectangle, and a fire burning behind the figure. It's obviously the sign for the fire exit, but that tells you nothing about how you would actually say "this is the fire exit" in the local language.
An alphabet uses symbols to represent sounds. You can know how to read a piece of alphabetic text aloud, but still have no idea what any of the words mean. For example, you might see some text written in French, and you could probably have a pretty good chance of pronouncing it well enough that a native French speaker would know what you were trying to say, but you (unless you actually do know French) still wouldn't know the meaning of what you'd just said.
Of course, the Egyptians complicated matters a bit, because they gradually started using some of their hieroglyphs to represent sounds rather than just concepts. But even that isn't formally considered to be a true alphabet, because the Egyptians didn't ever use it on its own to represent their language in its entirety; it was only ever an adjunct to their main hieroglyphic system.
To my understanding, egyptian heirglyphs were a set of apporosomately 24 phonetic pictograms (the number varies over the thousands of years of egyptian history), but often the writing included pictograms that for words or idioms as well.
You have it the wrong way around, really. The main writing system used a multitude of ideographic and pictographic hieroglyphs. The reuse of 24 of them as phonograms was merely supplementary (usually to transcribe foreign words/names).
You are mistaken. I believe you are conflating the concept of pictogram and heiroglyph. The rosetta stone worked as a translation key because it had 3 scripts in 2 languages.
The Rosetta Stone worked because the *Egyptian names* were transliterated into other languages, so the pronunciation of certain ideographic symbols became apparent.
Also, the meanings of each ideogram became clear elsewhere in the translation.
Finally, it was known, Coptic Christians and Ancient Egyptians are the same people (pre-Islamic Arab invasion). Indeed, Ancient Egyptian and Coptic are dialects of the same language.
Heiroglyphs are ideograms.
WotC commissioned a Supernal font to go with the other alphabets they released for Barazhad, Rellanic, Iokharic and Davek--the Primordial, elven, draconic and dwarven scripts respectively.
The fonts were created by Daniel Reeve, who did the calligraphy and font design for the Lord of the Rings movies.
...
It's killing me that this alphabet has never seen the light of day.
Until we get it from WotC, I'm just going with the Malachim celestial font.
So the ancient coptic Egyptians spoke Supernal, but we didn't know it until their names were translated into Rosetta.
And thats why we dont have the Supernal alphabet!
So the ancient coptic Egyptians spoke Supernal, but we didn't know it until their names were translated into Rosetta.
Interestingly, Supernal hieroglyphics might actually be Egyptian hieroglyphics:
The ancient Mulhorandi language of Faerun used Celestial (or Infernal in some areas) pictureglyphs, and the Mulhorandi people were actual Egyptians brought from our Earth to the Forgotten Realms. Also, TSR previously represented the Midani language (which is closely related to Mulhorandi) using Arabic script, which is descended from Egyptian hieroglyphics.
So the ancient coptic Egyptians spoke Supernal, but we didn't know it until their names were translated into Rosetta.
Interestingly, Supernal hieroglyphics might actually be Egyptian hieroglyphics:
The ancient Mulhorandi language of Faerun used Celestial (or Infernal in some areas) pictureglyphs, and the Mulhorandi people were actual Egyptians brought from our Earth to the Forgotten Realms. Also, TSR previously represented the Midani language (which is closely related to Mulhorandi) using Arabic script, which is descended from Egyptian hieroglyphics.
It appears all alphabets descend from the Egyptian hieroglyphics via the Protosinaitic alphabet.
It appears all alphabets descend from the Egyptian hieroglyphics
Touche. I was thinking that the fact Egypt currently uses Arabic had bearing (but it doesn't).
You are mistaken. I believe you are conflating the concept of pictogram and heiroglyph. The rosetta stone worked as a translation key because it had 3 scripts in 2 languages.
Haldrik already answered this one. But I will clarify that hieroglyphs can be either pictographic or ideographic (and occasionally also phonetic, but only ever in a supplementary role).
I'm not entirely sure what point you were trying to make with the Rosetta Stone example, though...
EDIT: Hang on, are you conflating Egyptian uniliterals (hieroglyphs used phonetically, which I already mentioned) with hieratic and demotic (which I didn't mention, but probably should have done)? Demotic is the 'other' script (other than classical Greek and hieroglyphic) on the Rosetta Stone.
In any case, "a system of hieroglyphs" and "an alphabet" are mutually exclusive and the written form of Supernal is explicitly the former. But it seems the OP was actually talking about a font rather than an alphabet anyway.
Omniglot is a great website for learning about the differences between different types of scripts (as well as languages themselves). I suggest everyone interested check it out.
What's interesting to me, is that Egyptian Hieroglyphics essentially developed parallel to written Japanese – you start with ideograms, and start simplifing some of the symbols, and applying sound meanings to them for reasons when you need to write something phoenetically, such as (for the Japanese) taking notes quickly (note that they don't have an alphabet, but rather a syllabary, which has different symbols for each syllable combination, like "ka" or "no" or "te").
It appears that all alphabets derived from this – trying to simplify the writing to a system that could be written more easily by the target audience, and get the message across. But it also meant more schooling was necessary to learn the different meaning of spoken words and their written parallels.
In doing a little further reading I think the German school of translation is that phonetic use is the exception and the non-German European school views phonetic usage as the baseline (with the addition of biliterals and triliterals) and in that school of thought, non-phonetic use is the exception.
Although, in my mind, I kind of imagine it looking something like Greek or Enochian.
Come to think of it, while we are waiting for it to be published, if you wanted an appropriate look and feel of an angelic writing system, you could substitute other liturgical writing systems such as the Deseret alphabet, or Glagolitsa.
Although, for sheer beauty, you could go with something like Javanese or Sinhalese.
As runners up, Khmer and Tibetan also are very beautiful.
I had heard that the Supernal font that was commissioned will also have a 1 to 1 correspondence with the English alphabet, same as the other fonts. It was definitely not hieroglyphic. Unless maybe the shapes of the letters look like hieroglyphs.
Although, in my mind, I kind of imagine it looking something like Greek or Enochian.
Come to think of it, while we are waiting for it to be published, if you wanted an appropriate look and feel of an angelic writing system, you could substitute other liturgical writing systems such as the Deseret alphabet, or Glagolitsa.
Although, for sheer beauty, you could go with something like Javanese or Sinhalese.
As runners up, Khmer and Tibetan also are very beautiful.
WHICH would be why it probably was kept out of the book. It's been said to be from the get-go a system of hieroglyphs, then someone commissioned it as an alphabet, and then they realised that hieroglyphs aren't alphabetical, and cancelled it.
It's not like WotC hasn't been known to make mistakes before – look at the powers that deal with the so-called "Nightshade Mushroom" (an utterly ridiculous notion, since Nightshade is a term used singularily to refer to the members of the PLANTAE family Solanaceae, that includes Tomatoes, Potatoes, Chili and Sweet Peppers, and of course Deadly Nightshade, while Mushrooms are a vast group of various types of FUNGAE, a different kingdom of life. The only similarity is that both certain Nightshades and certain mushrooms are said to be hallucinogenic and possibly deadly).
I doubt there was any editorial decision whatsover. It seems more likely that the art director, Mari Kolkowski, may have just messed up and left it out. Possibly due to turnover or staffing changes at WotC, she may not even have been aware that the font had been commissioned and intended for this book.
There is some art on the opposite page showing a marut with some symbols floating around him. Those symbols may be examples from the leters in the Supernal alphabet. I can't tell. They could be Rellanic instead. Or the artist could have just made them up, not sure if he used the actual Supernal font as reference.
It would be really cool if the web content folks could do an article about the Supernal alphabet in Dragon, or even better release a font pack with all the alphabets available for download so that DM's could make maps and documents and such for their handouts and gaming materials.
That said, I always thought the Runes that Runepriests used were in Supernal, as were those Marut symbols.
"The languages are transcribed in different scripts, most of which are alphabets, from the flowing characters of the Rellanic alphabet to the runes of the Davek alphabet. The Supernal script is a system of hieroglyphics."
So Supernal is still not an alphabet.
However, the editors at WotC commissioned a Supernal alphabet from font designer Daniel Reeve, who designed the other elven, dwarven, draconic and primordial fonts for 4E. He designed 5 new fonts in total for the 4e editors. Daniel Reeve is the noted calligrapher who designed all the fonts and maps for the Lord of the Rings movies. Mr. Reeve has said the Supernal font was delivered to WotC. The font contained only 26 letters and 10 numbers, same as the other 4 fonts, mapped to the characters of the English alphabet because that was what WotC requested.
My guess is that, with all the changeover at WotC, the editorial staff or art staff simply forgot that they had this font. I don't think they consciously decided not to use the font, but rather that it has been overlooked. It's a shame that they presumably spent a lot of money to commission a font from a very talented designer and then seem to have forgotten it. I hope it eventually gets published some day.
My suspicion is that whoever mentioned in a sourcebook that Supernal is written with hieroglyphics just decided it on his own without direction from the editors, and this just slipped through the editing process without editors catching it -- possibly because that author's editor himself was unaware they have a Supernal alphabet they commissioned just sitting around in a file on the WotC server somewhere, just waiting to be published in a book. Perhaps the author who wrote that quote decided Supernal was hieroglyphic precisely because WotC had not released the actual font yet. Maybe he took the conspicuous absence of the font to mean that a Supernal alphabet didn't exist, and so the explanation he came up with is that Supernal is hieroglyphic. I'm just speculating though. But I don't consider that brief mention you cite to be definitive or determinative.
Maybe the font actually looks like hieroglyphics, I don't really know. I would love to find out. Even were it so that WotC wishes to stick with this dubious lore that Supernal is written with hieroglyphics, it does not preclude the possibility that the system has a subset of characters used to represent individual letters. Egyptian hieroglyphics certainly did. Egyptian hieroglyphics had alphabetic characters that were used to spell out names. You see these characters in cartouches on ancient monuments. You often see these "letters" printed in books and on the net so that people can transcribe their own names into hieroglyphics. The existence of a Supernal alphabet font does not necessarily contradict the lore that Supernal may also be written with a system of hieroglyphics.
There is some art on the opposite page showing a marut with some symbols floating around him. Those symbols may be examples from the leters in the Supernal alphabet.
Here. I've seen that font before, but I'm unsure where. It kinda looks like D&D Elven (Rellanic). Anyone know?
Hey, whatever happened to the Supernal Alphabet? It was supposed to be published in the Plane Above book, but it got left out. I was under the impression it would eventually get released somewhere but haven't seen it. Unless I missed it.
Could this maybe be put up on the website somewhere or presented as an article in Dragon Magazine perhaps?
It was published in the 3.5e Races of Destiny book. Here is the gallery of sigils.
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/200...
It was published in the 3.5e Races of Destiny book. Here is the gallery of sigils.
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/200...
Thanks for the link! Based on canon (RoD p.78), the illumian sigils are indeed likely to be the Words of Power (i.e. Words of Creation) described on DMG p.171: "The Supernal and Abyssal languages are both actual languages used to communicate, but they also include words of power—words whose syllables contain the raw magic of creation (in the case of Supernal) or primordial evil (Abyssal). Player characters can’t know these languages initially. They might eventually learn the basics of communicating in these tongues, but without mastering these mighty sounds. Mortals who learn Supernal don’t gain the ability to have their words universally understood. Texts containing these words in either language could unleash powerful effects—and these tomes or scrolls might be artifacts in their own right."
Good call! Unless supernal deviates substantially from the Words of Creation, I think we have an answer.
It's possible they could be considered part of the Supernal writing system, but are more likely logographs and not alphabetic characters.
No, the Supernal alphabet is still out there waiting to be published.
I agree with you Jester. I'd love to see all the fonts made available as part of a handout maker or some such.
I doubt those symbols are the actual Supernal alphabet designed by Daniel Reeve.
Right... his later work has yet to be seen. However, the illumian sigils do appear to be the canon Words of Creation that Supernal was based on, and the sigils have even been used as the Words of Creation in a recent Epic adventure (EPIC3-1 The Glorious Hunt). Until we see Daniel Reeve's work, we have something. With any luck, Daniel might have known about these when he was creating Supernal.
The Iokharic draconic font (the one seen in Draconomicon I believe) is in this thread.
These are the only 4e fonts I've seen made up so far. I'd love to see the rest ;).
There are some fan made 4e dwarven and elven fonts in this EN World thread. They match the ones seen the Player's Handbook.
The Iokharic draconic font (the one seen in Draconomicon I believe) is in this thread.
These are the only 4e fonts I've seen made up so far. I'd love to see the rest ;).
I have all three of those, plus a barhzhad one for primordial/abyssal, though I can't remember where I found that last one. Kinda wish we had Supernal around, but in the interem I do have plenty of other fonts to use for it.
There are some fan made 4e dwarven and elven fonts in this EN World thread. They match the ones seen the Player's Handbook.
The Iokharic draconic font (the one seen in Draconomicon I believe) is in this thread.
These are the only 4e fonts I've seen made up so far. I'd love to see the rest ;).
I have all three of those, plus a barhzhad one for primordial/abyssal, though I can't remember where I found that last one. Kinda wish we had Supernal around, but in the interem I do have plenty of other fonts to use for it.
A link for the barhzhad font is farther down the first link in my post. I missed it ;).
Thanks to the fans who've re-created these fonts BTW.
These are the only 4e fonts I've seen made up so far. I'd love to see the rest ;).
Abyssal was also listed in the first thread you referenced.
Summary of 4e .ttf fonts available:
Iokharic (Draconic)
Rellanic (Elven)
Davek (Dwarven)
Barazhad (Abyssal)
Some other alphabets:
Illumian sigils (suitable for 4e's Words of Creation)
Dethek (Dwarven from 2e Forgotten Realms)
Espruar (Elven from 2e Forgotten Realms)
Thorass (Common from 2e Forgotten Realms)
Semphari (The Horde p.151)
Ra-Khati (The Horde p.151)
Tuigan (The Horde p.151)