Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 undead_kennedy Nov 09, 2009 14:54:02	So if MM3 follows the theme of the series it will feature another demon prince (likely Grazzt). After seeing the new Warlock article, which goes into detail about pact patrons, it dawned on me that we have no Archdevils and that printing a couple could be useful to both the DM and players if the right fluff accompanied it. I for one would like to see the nine hells get some love. Any word on when we will finally get to see the likes of Dispater, Meph (my personal favorite), and Asmodeus?
#2 Tharag_Bocc Nov 09, 2009 15:16:16	So if MM3 follows the theme of the series it will feature another demon prince (likely Grazzt). After seeing the new Warlock article, which goes into detail about pact patrons, it dawned on me that we have no Archdevils and that printing a couple could be useful to both the DM and players if the right fluff accompanied it. I for one would like to see the nine hells get some love. Any word on when we will finally get to see the likes of Dispater, Meph (my personal favorite), and Asmodeus? We already got Dispater, in Manual of the Planes.  That said more would be appreciated.  The upcoming Secrets of the Astral Sea will likely have one or even two more. Also, we already know the big hitter of MM3, Lolth.
#3 Marandahir Nov 09, 2009 16:50:49	We have more than Dispater.  We have a couple who aren't the Heads of their levels of Hell, but are pretty influential none-the-less, and would be perfect Devilish patrons (but dangerous ones):   Beleth, the Witches' Viscount Alloces, the Butcher of Nessus   In any case, we could use more of the Codex of Betrayal articles, I agree.  Perhaps a full, top-tier Archdevil.  But Alloces is generally considered more powerful than some of the lower-level (or closer to surface) Devil leaders.
#4 pogminky Nov 10, 2009 9:46:59	Yes, more Codex please.
#5 kamikazegerbil Nov 10, 2009 11:50:53	Yes. More Codex would be great. I really liked Beleth and Alloces is almost as nice. I'd hoped and prayed for Mephistophiles in MM3 (not that I minded Lolth getting the spot instead) so instead I'm pinning my hopes on Plane Above.
#6 undead_kennedy Nov 10, 2009 21:21:31	So if MM3 follows the theme of the series it will feature another demon prince (likely Grazzt). After seeing the new Warlock article, which goes into detail about pact patrons, it dawned on me that we have no Archdevils and that printing a couple could be useful to both the DM and players if the right fluff accompanied it. I for one would like to see the nine hells get some love. Any word on when we will finally get to see the likes of Dispater, Meph (my personal favorite), and Asmodeus? We already got Dispater, in Manual of the Planes.  That said more would be appreciated.  The upcoming Secrets of the Astral Sea will likely have one or even two more. Also, we already know the big hitter of MM3, Lolth. Derf, don't have MoP so I guess I need to get it now. Also I had been informed of the whole Lolth in MM3 thing but somehow it had slipped my mind. I have high hopes for Secrets of the Astral Sea. I just find devils to be a little more interesting than demons. They tend to be deeper and more complex, which IMO, makes for better endquest and endgame villians. Not to take away from demons, somtimes you just need something big, dumb, and destructive.
#7 undead_kennedy Nov 10, 2009 21:32:55	Yes. More Codex would be great. I really liked Beleth and Alloces is almost as nice. I'd hoped and prayed for Mephistophiles in MM3 (not that I minded Lolth getting the spot instead) so instead I'm pinning my hopes on Plane Above. Yeah, I love Meph. My last 3.5 adventure ended with a coup by Meph against Asmodeus. Meph had used pure hellfire to free Levistus from his glacial prison. The two of them killed Vecna and after Meph assumed Vecna's portfolio he used his divine power to take over hell with poor Levistus as his enslaved exarch. The party was employed by the gods to sabotage Meph's coup while at its peak so as to prevent a direct war between heaven and hell. It was my favorite epic adventure I ever ran.
#8 Marandahir Nov 10, 2009 22:30:16	Hey, hey.  Graz'zt is anything but dumb.  Same with Dagon (the real personage behind Demogorgon).
#9 Lord_Ventnor Nov 11, 2009 0:49:24	Hey, hey.  Graz'zt is anything but dumb.  Same with Dagon (the real personage behind Demogorgon).  Of course, 4E Grazzt was originally a devil... Can't say the same about Dagon though, so you might have a point.
#10 undead_kennedy Nov 11, 2009 1:29:05	The demon princes are all fairly cunning and several (like Grazzt, Orcus, and Dagon) are exceptional. But standard demons and some princes such as Yeenoghu always struck me as forces of terrible and uncontrollable evil. Where as devils are largerly more methodical and manipulative, prefering to corrupt a mortal's soul than simply destroy them.
#11 Duke5150 Nov 11, 2009 17:44:56	Its like comparing wizards and barbarians.  Although, beyond the stereotype, you have to look at each specific demon/devil. Not all demons are dumb and not all devils are as intelligent or cunning as they think. Both share the same weakness. An overwhelming ego.