Although D&D 5 is coming soon.
Never. There's no need because the rules can be updated at any time via the DDI.
That's assuming all players subscribe to DDI ... I know I won't.
Never. There's no need because the rules can be updated at any time via the DDI.
I'm sorry, but thats just crazy talk.
"Hey, we could put the revision up for "free" to our subscribers, or we can print new books and change just enough that everybody has to buy whole new copies of things they already have and make a fortune!"
Yeah, a 4.5 is coming, and it'll arrive whenever the sales of 4e start slacking off. Same way 3.5 did.
I'm sorry, but thats just crazy talk.
"Hey, we could put the revision up for "free" to our subscribers, or we can print new books and change just enough that everybody has to buy whole new copies of things they already have and make a fortune!"
Yeah, a 4.5 is coming, and it'll arrive whenever the sales of 4e start slacking off. Same way 3.5 did.
And of course they'll violently deny it, right up until it hits the shelves.
They will almost certainly release optional/advanced rule books anyway so in effect, those releases will be 4.5-ish by default.
not to mention the oodles of errata that's sure to follow.
*snip*
not to mention the oodles of errata that's sure to follow.
You made a funny... *tee-hee* :P
Yeah, a 4.5 is coming, and it'll arrive whenever the sales of 4e start slacking off. Same way 3.5 did.
Releasing 3.5 was already planned when 3.0 hit the shelves.
I believe that well before the sales of 4e will 'start slacking off' they'll start working on 5e.
You may believe it or not, there's no reason at all to release something like a 4.5 with the DDI available and the yearly release of a new PHB, DMG & MM.
Releasing 3.5 was already planned when 3.0 hit the shelves.
I believe that well before the sales of 4e will 'start slacking off' they'll start working on 5e.
You may believe it or not, there's no reason at all to release something like a 4.5 with the DDI available and the yearly release of a new PHB, DMG & MM.
Except that, as stated, the DDI isn't for whole-sale rules revisions - after all, not everyone will be subscribed to DDI. DDI is for all the parts of each book that should have been in it, but that WotC decided to make-extra-ultra-exclusive by putting online where they get paid for material and don't have to pay for the printing costs.
If they released a .5 revision/patch via DDI, non-subscribers wouldn't be able to access it, thereby cutting off the usablility of future 4.5 products from non-subscribers. That's suicide, because it prevents people who have avoided subscribing from getting access to the newer rules and therefore dissuades them from buying the newer hard copy books. They'll release 4.5 in hard-bound form, though there will obviously be previews and the rules-update also included in DDI.
All that said, I'd peg 4.5 to come out in about 2011, 2012 at the latest. If I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised, but the model of 4.0 strikes me as actually more prone to rules-bloat than 3.5, because there's so many additional paragon paths, epic destinies, tricks, abilities, feats, classes (since multiclassing makes it harder to hybridize), monsters, templates, and weapon abilities already being worked on. When each race, class, and item takes up two to three times the space it used to, that's a lot more pages of printing, and therefore, less in each book. So they'll be able to release more books, I suppose, but then the rules will be bloated and they'll have to just start all over again. It's possible that the 4.5 won't actually arrive - that WotC will just go to 5.0, but they've shown they aren't particularly concerned about the actual life of a product line, and only with releasing newer rules. Furthermore, with their new Campaign Setting model, they won't even be able to generate as much revenue from campaign settings as they used to - all they'll get out of Eberron players is the price of two, maybe all three of the ECS books, and then, maybe more rules books. Back in 3.5, Eberron players probably bought all the Completes and other rules supplements while ALSO buying each ECS book, increasing the actual amount of books purchased.
Of course, I may be wrong. But it doesn't seem to make any sense otherwise.
As for a 4.5, well..sure maybe? We haven't seen the rules. There may be so many updates that need to get done that they need to make one. I sure as hell hope not because that'd be a bad financial move on their part. It would make hasbro look bad. And before you say that they don't care if they look bad, yes they do. Any company does. Why? Because it has to do with finance. Some people will not buy from a company that they do not like. Examples of this can be seen from some very patriotic Americans refusing to purchase gas from certain gas stations or refusing to use K-mart because of..well I can't recall why anymore.
And do you think that their new campaign model will lose them money? It was designed to increase net profit not to lose it. They found out that with all the setting specific books they produce they only hit a very select, and small audience. If you have 100 eberron players perhaps 75-80 would buy a new book, now if that book is focused for DM's only..even less would purchase it.
I've read from a freelancer's blog that there have been suggestions that this isn't a concrete model anyway. They intend to release only three campaign books per year for one setting each year. But if say, Eberron's three sell exceptionally well and they find a strong and viable group still wanting to buy more, more will undoubtedly appear.
But hey, I'm not a marketing major, economics major, or business major. I don't know anything about how to juggle profit margins or public opinion. But I doubt the majority of people who post their opinion are..so we're on an even level. Two cookies for whoever ends up being right
And of course they'll violently deny it, right up until it hits the shelves.
QFT.
Never, they will just publish DMG 2, PHB2, and then DMG 3,PHB 3 one year later, see? there is no need for a +1/2.
Although D&D 5 is coming soon.
I agree.
A very big reason 3.5 was released was to maintain interest in the core set. With the "expanding core" in 4e, interest keeps its peak longer (in theory ;)). No need then, for a revised edition, released all at once. Instead, we'll likely see some evidence of revisions along the way. I expect sidebars will eventually appear, saying something like: "If you are using the revised multiclass feats presented in PH 4 . . . "
By the same token: Later Player Handbooks may eventually supercede the earlier PHs, but I doubt this will happen until several have been released (i.e. several years down the road, same as other revisions).
Their primary purpose will prolly be to be to introduce "new" power sources. The initial PH introduces the martial, arcane and divine power sources. The PH2 will prolly introduce us to psionics.
My two coppers ;).
Do you really think 3.5 was planned before 3.0 was out? That's hilarious...3.5 was designed as an update, an improvement, not a complete overhaul.
Actually, I know for sure 3.5 was planned before 3.0 was out (Monte Cook mentioned it in some web article). You're still right, however, what was not originally planned was the major overhaul of so many rules.
As for a 4.5, well..sure maybe? We haven't seen the rules. There may be so many updates that need to get done that they need to make one.
It's conceivable. But I don't think it's what they plan to do
I've read from a freelancer's blog that there have been suggestions that this isn't a concrete model anyway. They intend to release only three campaign books per year for one setting each year. But if say, Eberron's three sell exceptionally well and they find a strong and viable group still wanting to buy more, more will undoubtedly appear.
Yep. That's exactly what I've heard. WotC would also like their customers to treat these campaign books as part of the 'core rulebooks'. It's no coincidence that the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide will include exclusive information about a new base class (Swordmage) and races (Drow, Genasi). Want to play a Swordmage in an Eberron Campaign? Go buy the FRPG!
As a final remark on this topic I'd like to point out that several areas and certain basic functionality of the DDI will stay free and thus available for everyone.
E.g. everyone will be able to use the rules database to search for a certain feat. However, you'll only find a reference to the source book and a page number rather than the full description of the feat.
Similarly, errata will be made available for everyone without the need to subscribe to the DDI.
I do not, btw, currently plan to subscribe to the DDI. Even if our group should decide to convert to 4E (which I hope since I like what I've seen so far) I don't want to shell out a monthly fee.
Should the game ever reach a point where it's no longer possible or fun to play without being a DDI subscriber, I'll stop playing D&D. It's not as if it was the only rpg still around
No need then, for a revised edition, released all at once. Instead, we'll likely see some evidence of revisions along the way. I expect sidebars will eventually appear, saying something like: "If you are using the revised multiclass feats presented in PH 4 . . . "
This!
And of course they'll violently deny it, right up until it hits the shelves.
Just like they violently deny the need for minis and a battle grid. Unfortunately for them, I'm sticking with my tried-and-try method of graph paper and pencils unless they start making some set pieces where I know what I'm buying.
5th edition will be out in 7-8 years, if that's what you mean. But they won't do another .5 edition.
4.5 depending on what they want to call it, will happen after they have all the "core" D&D stuff printed. It won't look quite the same since they're switching to a PHB2,3... format, but the same stuff will be covered: psionics, the other base classes, a few books of paragon paths and epic destinies, the planes, strongholds (maybe if we're lucky), deities & demigods, mass combat (if we're lucky), and a few other things. Then the PHB and DMG annuals will start having lower quality content, as all the bases become covered, and we'll start seeing things like Incarnum and Tome of Battle. When we see this, everybody should collectively go, "Oh! They're experimenting for 5e." Then the books will get thinner and the page count will decrease as fewer people buy. Then a new Star Wars game will come out, and abunch of compendiums. And finally at GenCon they'll announce 5e for May 2016 (my guess for an integer edition).
So, the short version: I believe 4.5 will be about five years (2013) and 5e will be eight or nine (~2016).
Just like they violently deny the need for minis and a battle grid. Unfortunately for them, I'm sticking with my tried-and-try method of graph paper and pencils unless they start making some set pieces where I know what I'm buying.
You are just proving that you really do NOT need minis to play the game. I have been using a battle grid and chess pieces for a long time, the minis are just extra decoration.
Rather, there will be PHB2+ for a while, then maybe books giving optional rules and more optional rules on DDI and then 5e.
I think this process will take about 5 - 6 years, but I really hope it takes 9-10.
But doesn't your ability to play with pencil and paper prove that they aren't lying when they say you don't need minis?
I regularly played 2nd Edition with no more than a bag of dice, a character sheet, and a few pencils. The only maps we had was so we knew what a room looked like, not where everyone was. It just wasn't needed.
Now with all the dancing around that you're doing during comabt, it's going to be impossible without a lot of "eyeballing" it and that won't be as easy as it was in 2nd Edition.
I thought I was buying Dungeons & Dragons by WotC. Looks more like Fantasy RISK by AH.
4.5 won't come out?
Only in the sense that they'll call it something else... but...
its naivety to belive this is the final incarnation of the game. Let us not be foolish about this...
What will it be called then, I think is the next question...
4.5 won't come out?
Only in the sense that they'll call it something else... but...
its naivety to belive this is the final incarnation of the game. Let us not be foolish about this...
"4.5 won't happen" /= "the final incarnation of the game"
In fact, no one believes that this is the final incarnation of the game. Names matter. 4.5, as an add-on to 4th edition, simply won't happen, IMHO. 5th edition, sure. That will happen.
So I think in the future they'll drop the numbering and the next version will be called "D&D Saga Edition" or "Expert Edition" or "Advanced Edition" or something like that.
Look for it in about two years.
I regularly played 2nd Edition with no more than a bag of dice, a character sheet, and a few pencils. The only maps we had was so we knew what a room looked like, not where everyone was. It just wasn't needed.
Now with all the dancing around that you're doing during comabt, it's going to be impossible without a lot of "eyeballing" it and that won't be as easy as it was in 2nd Edition.
I thought I was buying Dungeons & Dragons by WotC. Looks more like Fantasy RISK by AH.
So the people who have been using battle mats and figs for 30 odd years haven''t been playing D&D correctly?
Must come as a shock that other groups play differently doesn't it. They didn't realize they weren't playing The One True Way(tm)
I regularly played 2nd Edition with no more than a bag of dice, a character sheet, and a few pencils. The only maps we had was so we knew what a room looked like, not where everyone was. It just wasn't needed.
Now with all the dancing around that you're doing during comabt, it's going to be impossible without a lot of "eyeballing" it and that won't be as easy as it was in 2nd Edition.
I thought I was buying Dungeons & Dragons by WotC. Looks more like Fantasy RISK by AH.
I couldn't agree more. Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play. Has anyone actually tried a narrative combat with the new 4E rules? And just so I am clear, its not the fact that I don't have all these new minis or any minis at all. I know you can use other things like chess pieces etc. The truth is, I and my group don't want to use minis AT ALL. I know that sounds foreign to some people, but I actually prefer it that way. Minis take too much time and the game ends up feeling like Hero Quest instead of D&D.
Back on topic, don't think there will be a 4.5 at all. Like another poster said, it will be PH2, DMG2, etc with DDI filling in the void until 5E.
So the people who have been using battle mats and figs for 30 odd years haven''t been playing D&D correctly?
Must come as a shock that other groups play differently doesn't it. They didn't realize they weren't playing The One True Way(tm)
Thank you.
As for 4.5? Nah, I think that 3.5 was just an anomoly. If 4e is as balanced as they say it is we might not have 5e for a good few years, I'd speculate more than the time between 3.5 and 4.
I couldn't agree more. Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play.
I cannot figure out why so many people are incapable of understanding that the use of miniatures has always been assumed in every edition of the game but that they have never been required. In this 4e is no different than 3e, 2e, 1e, or even BD&D. People who are unable to run a 4e game without miniature need to look to their own limitations are players, not imagine those limitations to be the fault of the game.
I couldn't agree more. Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play. Has anyone actually tried a narrative combat with the new 4E rules? And just so I am clear, its not the fact that I don't have all these new minis or any minis at all. I know you can use other things like chess pieces etc. The truth is, I and my group don't want to use minis AT ALL. I know that sounds foreign to some people, but I actually prefer it that way. Minis take too much time and the game ends up feeling like Hero Quest instead of D&D.
Back on topic, don't think there will be a 4.5 at all. Like another poster said, it will be PH2, DMG2, etc with DDI filling in the void until 5E.
So the people who have been using battle mats and figs for 30 odd years haven't been playing D&D correctly?
Must come as a shock that other groups play differently doesn't it. They didn't realize they weren't playing The One True Way(tm)
Regarding the topic at hand, WotC realise it'd be corporate suicide to do a 4.5 - they'd lose any good name they have left when it comes to reliability in a rules system. 5e wouldn't sell.
And don't expect 5e too soon - people are complaining about upgrading at all, but we had 2eAD&D for a hell of a long time, and 3e for almost as long, too.
Because AD&D2E really de-emphasised them - it didn't require miniatures at all. Those people whose D&D experience starts with AD&D (and that's a lot of people, thanks to Baldur's Gate, Eye of the Beholder, and a bunch of similar AD&D computer games) only see miniatures come into the picture with 3e+.
But 1st edition emphasized them.
So did 3rd.
So will 4th.
2nd edition is the anamoly, not the standard to aim for.
go off to reading books
if 4.5 and or 5 comes around im jumping ship.
go off to reading books
So, when 5th comes around 8 years from now, you'll just quit? That's...silly.
I don't see why 4E won't have it's own upgrades and it will likely coincide with whenever a new starter set for minis it put out. I'm sure we'll see an incremental patching, but at some point the game will be such a patchwork that issuing "reordered & condensed" rulebooks will be a must. Then it's a race off to develop 5E.
I don't see why 4E won't have it's own upgrades and it will likely coincide with whenever a new starter set for minis it put out. I'm sure we'll see an incremental patching, but at some point the game will be such a patchwork that issuing "reordered & condensed" rulebooks will be a must. Then it's a race off to develop 5E.
Optional Upgrades /= 3.5. 3.5 was a retcon of the whole system, making it an anamoly.
Although D&D 5 is coming soon.
Notebooks are filling with thoughts as we speak.
In the old business model, 3-3.5, WotC wrote books, and sold them to players. They had to balance filling the market with books, the timing of the books, and the desire of players to purchase such books. Each book was around $30, and took months to produce. They had to produce many books to make money.
In the new system, 4.0, WotC writes 3 books for each setting (or some other small number). Many people will want these books, and pay $30 for them. Once everyone has the books, instead of going to the old business model, they will convince each player to pay $20 per month to access DDI. Making a few books provides the core rules and thrusts the players directly into their real profit source, DDI, which the players will need to get new rules, etc.
So, a comparison of profits to justify my argument:
In the old system, WotC produced the three core books, and a new book a month (sometimes two).
In the new system, to be more successful with DDI, which costs half the price of a book (or slightly more), they only have to have twice as many DDI subscribers as people buying the supplemental materials. I think they can definitely achieve this. This is because they are still producing the same number of core books. Adventures never made money, so we need not concern ourselves with them.
Besides that, the selling price of the books mostly went to the distributors and retailers of the books, and not WotC. From DDI, WotC gets all the money (minus internet fees, etc.). This likely makes it so that WotC only needs as many DDI subscribers (not twice as many) as people who were previously buying supplemental books, or fewer (a 50% reduction from the previous paragraph). With the additional features of DDI, besides just new content, they will definitely get more subscribers than people who were buying supplemental books. This means more money for WotC.
So, in conclusion:
Don't expect a 5th edition until the subscriptions to DDI start to die off, and people stop renewing. Be assured that DDI is where most of their profit will be, and the books will only be a supplement to attract new users and give users a basis with which to use DDI. DDI is the future, and is where the money is.
Royal prediction: no 4.5, but 5e sometime between 6 and 9 years from now, probably closer to the 6 end.
I predict 7. Seven years is regarded as the optimum lifespan for a band, the average run of a successful TV series, and of course there's the infamous "seven year itch". It is a decent length of time between game editions. There is nothing "magical" or "lucky" about it, but it is a number that seems to resonate with humans in regards to renewal and level of interest, our fascination bell-curve if you will.
Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play.
OK, could somebody, ANYBODY, explain how miniatures, as opposed to erasers, pennies, M&M's, etc, are necessary?
The real and legit complaint is that 4e requires you to keep track of where everybody is.
While minis are the easiest and most attractive way of doing it, they are not the only way.
What do you mean by narrative combat anyway?
By that, I mean that I understand what the words mean, but I wonder what exactly you mean by it. Do you mean turning over control of the battlefield to the players and letting them tell you where things are to afford them maximum storytelling potential?
(if you are that's cool, what ever works for you , I'm just trying to figure out what your beef is
)Oh yeah, topic.
No, I doubt we'll see a 4.5, just a slow introduction of new material through the new core books. Of course the more cynical among you will [probably call the yearly Core books 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, etc.
There won't be a 4.5, or even a 5, for a long while. They have changed their business model for the new edition. Let me explain:
In the old business model, 3-3.5, WotC wrote books, and sold them to players. They had to balance filling the market with books, the timing of the books, and the desire of players to purchase such books. Each book was around $30, and took months to produce. They had to produce many books to make money.
In the new system, 4.0, WotC writes 3 books for each setting (or some other small number). Many people will want these books, and pay $30 for them. Once everyone has the books, instead of going to the old business model, they will convince each player to pay $20 per month to access DDI. Making a few books provides the core rules and thrusts the players directly into their real profit source, DDI, which the players will need to get new rules, etc.
So, a comparison of profits to justify my argument:
In the old system, WotC produced the three core books, and a new book a month (sometimes two).
In the new system, to be more successful with DDI, which costs half the price of a book (or slightly more), they only have to have twice as many DDI subscribers as people buying the supplemental materials. I think they can definitely achieve this. This is because they are still producing the same number of core books. Adventures never made money, so we need not concern ourselves with them.
Besides that, the selling price of the books mostly went to the distributors and retailers of the books, and not WotC. From DDI, WotC gets all the money (minus internet fees, etc.). This likely makes it so that WotC only needs as many DDI subscribers (not twice as many) as people who were previously buying supplemental books, or fewer (a 50% reduction from the previous paragraph). With the additional features of DDI, besides just new content, they will definitely get more subscribers than people who were buying supplemental books. This means more money for WotC.
So, in conclusion:
Don't expect a 5th edition until the subscriptions to DDI start to die off, and people stop renewing. Be assured that DDI is where most of their profit will be, and the books will only be a supplement to attract new users and give users a basis with which to use DDI. DDI is the future, and is where the money is.
One look at their lineup pretty much invalidates this. They're still doing the "book a month" or more for 4E.
Now, I can't say that I expect a terribly long lifespan for 4e, but I do certainly hope it lasts longer than 3/3.5e.
Here's my reasons.
1> They're tired of the grief they've gotten over 3.5, and aren't looking to suffer that again.
2> They've already said that they plan to release a new PHB and DMG EVERY YEAR FOR THE LIFE OF 4e. Now, in plain english, that means that they can update rules annually while selling you a new $35 book, and you'll buy it.
In idiot speak, for those who can't follow the above, "LolZ, n0 4.5 == KACHING KACHING $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ BLING-BLING FO' SHIZZLE!!!"
There won't be a 4.5
2009 will see PHB2 with updated rules
2010 will see PHB3 with updated rules
2011 will see PHB4 with updated rules
2012 will see PHB5 with updated rules
2013 will see PHB6 with updated rules
2014 will see PHB7 with updated rules
2015 will see PHB8 with updated rules
2016 will see PHB9 with updated rules
2017 will see PHB10 with updated rules
2018 will see D&D 5th Edition, and the commencerate whining.
I couldn't agree more. Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play. Has anyone actually tried a narrative combat with the new 4E rules? And just so I am clear, its not the fact that I don't have all these new minis or any minis at all. I know you can use other things like chess pieces etc. The truth is, I and my group don't want to use minis AT ALL. I know that sounds foreign to some people, but I actually prefer it that way. Minis take too much time and the game ends up feeling like Hero Quest instead of D&D.
Actually aside from the rogue's powers, I don't see anything more complicated then multiplying by 5. And rogue's powers can easily be adjudicated by the DM anyway, sooo I don't see them as necessary just a whole lot more assumed than in 3.X, which is more like 1E you know with the 3" swing angles. At least now they have uniform size for squares.
Back on topic, don't think there will be a 4.5 at all. Like another poster said, it will be PH2, DMG2, etc with DDI filling in the void until 5E.
I tend to agree with that, I mean it will be there liked Unearthed Arcana and those last 5-10 adventures in 1e, and skills and powers but it won't be an across the board obviousness.
So, when 5th comes around 8 years from now, you'll just quit? That's...silly.
no its called wont give them my money.
besides may not even be breathing in that amount of time, after all we are not promised tomorrow are we?
The topic echoes my very first thought when 4e was announced, and yes, it is a living game. So Ill dare say that we´ll see a 5th, 6th and 7th edition. Along with their respective ¨dotfive¨ versions -if it is good enought for their bussines agenda- but anyways, the 3.5 playmore propaganda was very very cool and newgamers deserve new material, not only the good old classics for ourselves (you oldschool Ad&D gamers...)
- nuff said!
NEVAR! I remember multiple designers saying that 4.5e will not happen,
That means nothing, because those same designers also fervently denied a 4th edition, and look where we are now.
I couldn't agree more. Apparently narrative combat has gone by the way-side in 4E what with miniatures being required for play. Has anyone actually tried a narrative combat with the new 4E rules? And just so I am clear, its not the fact that I don't have all these new minis or any minis at all. I know you can use other things like chess pieces etc. The truth is, I and my group don't want to use minis AT ALL. I know that sounds foreign to some people, but I actually prefer it that way. Minis take too much time and the game ends up feeling like Hero Quest instead of D&D.
Back on topic, don't think there will be a 4.5 at all. Like another poster said, it will be PH2, DMG2, etc with DDI filling in the void until 5E.
Emphasis mine, people keep saying this and everyone from Wotc staff to other posters keep refuting it, yet it still gets repeated.
On topic, I see 4E going the distance, what with the constant addition of new power sources, classes and powers and the controlled release of campaign settings, at least 2018 before 5E is needed.
Bel
no its called wont give them my money.
Ok, why?
Ok, why?
For pretty much the same reason as why you would try to stop the burglar getting away with your t.v., I'm guessing. Exploitation isn't fun.
For pretty much the same reason as why you would try to stop the burglar getting away with your t.v., I'm guessing. Exploitation isn't fun.
A game company printing new editions every 7-10 years isn't exploitation. Heck, it's not exploitation if they print a new editon every year,for that matter.
It just so happens that I do have people to play with, but I'm not perfectly happy with the previous editions, and I think I'll be happier with 4e, and I have enough money to spare for the core books, so it makes sense for me to buy them.
That's all. I'm not brainwashed for being willing to buy into the new edition, and other people aren't being overly bitter just because they decide it's not worth it for them.
The company does need to keep making new books to keep in business and keep their product fresh and interesting, and the flaws in a system become more and more apparant over time, and these two things together mean there will be new editions in the future. I don't expect another '.5' edition. I think they learned from the last time that if there's enough wrong to necessitate a .5, it's probably time to consider a whole new edition.
So 4.5? Probably not. But 5e? Virtually guaranteed, and could show up anytime between 4 and 12 years from now, depending on how long it takes for WotC to go through useful material and on how long it takes for whatever inherent bugs are in the 4e system to manifest and grow more irritating. My royal prediction is something like 6 years, as I think they'll be out of material for PHBs that people actually want around PHB5. At that point I think they'll be making things up that people don't want, or don't think is cool, and sales for splats will wane.
For pretty much the same reason as why you would try to stop the burglar getting away with your t.v., I'm guessing. Exploitation isn't fun.
I think you misunderstand the meaning of the words "burglar" and "exploitation"…and perhaps "fun".
For pretty much the same reason as why you would try to stop the burglar getting away with your t.v., I'm guessing. Exploitation isn't fun.
Until a WoTC employee enters your house and makes you play a game at gunpoint, you sir need to shut it.
Until a WoTC employee enters your house and makes you play a game at gunpoint, you sir need to shut it.
Richard Baker showed up at my gaming night with a large knife, and told us that if we ever played a White Wolf game again he'd cut us. True story. Really.
What?
:P
D&D 3.5e is not to be confused with the AD&D Unearthed Arcana (or, I would guess, the AD&D 2e Skills and Powers, although I could be mistaken as I skipped 2e). 1eUA was an incremental upgrade and did not invalidate the existing rules. So do most such supplements.
Othe other hand, 3.5e was a partial replacement of 3.0e. It is partially backward compatible, but in many cases requires the refactoring of existing PCs, NPCs and monsters. This was not a rule supplement, it was a rule replacement. You could not have a 3.0 ranger and a 3.5 ranger in the same game. The "name" 3.5 was chosen because a) it was too early for 4e and b) it was only a partial replacement of the rules (a lot of things did not change, just enough to warrant a new set of books).
That's two different kinds of crunch: add-ons and replacements.
Some suggest that if this kind of rule replacement ever becomes necessary before the market is ready for 5e, that it could (or should) be done via the release of PHB2+, DMG2+, or worse, DDI.
Stop, and think for a moment about the kind of unmanageable mess that would create. You would have current and obsolete tidbits of rules spread around your entire D&D library.
For example, when I want to use a monster from MM2 or Fiend Folio, I have to go to that update document and see how it was modified for 3.5e. It's a hassle, but it's pretty straightforward. It's the same process for everything pre-3.5e: if it changed, it has an entry in that document. How's that gonna work if the rule replacements are arbitrarily spread over time and many books AND online?
A few rule replacement and revisions along the way is fine, but there is a point where it risks turning the rules into an unmanageable bloated morass. I wish the yearly core books will contain add-ons, but as few as possible replacements.
I did not jump with joy when 3.5e was announced and released. But I understood the rationale, and I agreed that it was the most convenient way to do it for everyone involved. New sales for WotC, and for us, better rules and organization.
I hope 4.5e is not needed, but if it is, I hope they do it as they did with 3.5e. As for a release date, if it happens, summer 2011 would be my guess. Past that time, it will be an indication that the core of 4e is not broken enough to justify it, and the next overhaul will be 5e, by 2016.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a
However 4E-beta, followed by 4E-delta (insert actual greek characters) will be out in 2010 and 2012, respectively.
I'd also like to add that the only version of D&D that wasn't written with the use of miniatures SPECIFICALLY in mind, arguably, was 2e. People tend to forget that D&D started as a miniatures wargame.
Chainmail started as a miniatures wargmae. D&D was created as a roleplaying game.
Chainmail started as a miniatures wargmae. D&D was created as a roleplaying game.
A roleplaying game that relied heavily on the use of counters, be them miniatures or otherwise, in combat as a placement tool.
I could of sworn I heard that there won't be a need for a 4.5....
because of the online resources they can make the changes as needed...and if I remember one of the 4th Ed interviews from Gen Con 2007...one of the Designers even said that there won't be a revised edition of 4th...
of course I could of imagined it...I mean the Gamer Zero Podcasts could of been product of my imagination and everybody is playing along with me and with my Delusions..:coolcthul
Wow the books haven't even hit the shelf yet and already people are wondering about 4.5....
I could of sworn I heard that there won't be a need for a 4.5....
because of the online resources they can make the changes as needed...and if I remember one of the 4th Ed interviews from Gen Con 2007...one of the Designers even said that there won't be a revised edition of 4th...
of course I could of imagined it...I mean the Gamer Zero Podcasts could of been product of my imagination and everybody is playing along with me and with my Delusions..:coolcthul
Online resources won't change the text printed in books, they'd have to print new books for that. Plus, these are also the same designers who fervently denied there would be a 4th edition, take their word with a grain of salt.
I could of sworn I heard that there won't be a need for a 4.5....
because of the online resources they can make the changes as needed...
The problem is no matter what WotC wants, some people will prefer printed books, to online documentation.
How many people actualy read the Windows Help files?
So any changes will need to be printed in order to get revenue from those people who want printed material.
Technically I would say that 4.1th edition will be when the PHBII, DMGII, and MMII comes out, and keep incrementing with each additional "core" book.
In the new system, to be more successful with DDI, which costs half the price of a book (or slightly more),
Wait, I thought DDI was only going to cost about 10 dollars. . .
That means nothing, because those same designers also fervently denied a 4th edition, and look where we are now.
Well of course they did, they were underneath Non-Disclosure Agreements. Would you risk your career (not to mention a lawsuit) for a game?
Besides, it's not in anyone's interest for WotC to have said, 1 January 2004, "Oh yeah, we started designing a new edition of D&D today! We know we just released 3.5E, but you don't need to bother with it, since we'll you'll just be buying the new 4E books four years from now!" Lots of people really wouldn't have bothered buying anything, and the industry would likely have tanked; many game stores would've gone broke, many WotC employees would be out of a job, and lots of gamers would've been without official support for their favourite game.
In short, what did you seriously expect? It's common sense that a game company will produce games, and it's reasonable to assume that WotC is already 'working on' (if not actually actively developing) a future edition of D&D. We shouldn't necessarily expect it anytime soon though.
4.5 will come out just as everyone who will go into 4th has already invested in it. then they will release 4.5. Best to wait a year and not waste the money.
...You're kidding, right?
Wow the books haven't even hit the shelf yet and already people are wondering about 4.5....
I could of sworn I heard that there won't be a need for a 4.5....
because of the online resources they can make the changes as needed...and if I remember one of the 4th Ed interviews from Gen Con 2007...one of the Designers even said that there won't be a revised edition of 4th...
of course I could of imagined it...I mean the Gamer Zero Podcasts could of been product of my imagination and everybody is playing along with me and with my Delusions..:coolcthul
Well, "Will there be a 4.5e?" is just one of those questions that will always get you the same answer: "No".
Saying "Yes" would scuttle 4e and "No comments", or avoiding the question altogether, would be just as bad.
If WotC does not publish it, then their answer is true, obviously.
On the other hand, if they plan to do so, if they keep the option open, they just can't answer truthfully now can they? I wouldn't.
Either way you get the same answer, thus it is really no answer at all.
I'm not saying they are lying, but if they are, I'm not blaming them. They just don't have a choice.
Just something I thought I'd point out (or concur with, as others have mentioned it):
...
Othe other hand, 3.5e was a partial replacement of 3.0e. It is partially backward compatible, but in many cases requires the refactoring of existing PCs, NPCs and monsters. This was not a rule supplement, it was a rule replacement. You could not have a 3.0 ranger and a 3.5 ranger in the same game. The "name" 3.5 was chosen because a) it was too early for 4e and b) it was only a partial replacement of the rules (a lot of things did not change, just enough to warrant a new set of books).
That's two different kinds of crunch: add-ons and replacements.
Some suggest that if this kind of rule replacement ever becomes necessary before the market is ready for 5e, that it could (or should) be done via the release of PHB2+, DMG2+, or worse, DDI.
Stop, and think for a moment about the kind of unmanageable mess that would create. You would have current and obsolete tidbits of rules spread around your entire D&D library.
...How's that gonna work if the rule replacements are arbitrarily spread over time and many books AND online?
A few rule replacement and revisions along the way is fine, but there is a point where it risks turning the rules into an unmanageable bloated morass. I wish the yearly core books will contain add-ons, but as few as possible replacements.
I did not jump with joy when 3.5e was announced and released. But I understood the rationale, and I agreed that it was the most convenient way to do it for everyone involved. New sales for WotC, and for us, better rules and organization.
I hope 4.5e is not needed, but if it is, I hope they do it as they did with 3.5e. As for a release date, if it happens, summer 2011 would be my guess. Past that time, it will be an indication that the core of 4e is not broken enough to justify it, and the next overhaul will be 5e, by 2016.
You make an excellent point, Sebby, and I personally find both your rationale and your timeline agreeable.
I know there'll be a PH, DMG, and MM each year, but I don't honestly expect them to get past IV or V before we see some kind of format change, possibly a revision or compilation set. This doesn't bother me at all; I'd rather see four years of quality products capped by a Revised 4E than ten years of bloated, poorly-balanced, poorly-written, and poorly-edited splat.
What I'm absolutely certain of is that any such revision will NOT use any decimal notation; 'Revised 4th Edition' sounds better than '4.5E' anyway.
Well, "Will there be a 4.5e?" is just one of those questions that will always get you the same answer: "No".
Saying "Yes" would scuttle 4e and "No comments", or avoiding the question altogether, would be just as bad.
If WotC does not publish it, then their answer is true, obviously.
On the other hand, if they plan to do so, if they keep the option open, they just can't answer truthfully now can they? I wouldn't.
Either way you get the same answer, thus it is really no answer at all.
I'm not saying they are lying, but if they are, I'm not blaming them. They just don't have a choice.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I'd still buy the 4th edition core books even if they said "Yes" to "Will there be a 4.5?" Maybe I'm just completely insane, but I think $60-$70 is a pretty fair price for a solid year or two of fun. I spend more than that on books, movies, CDs, and video games that last for much less time. I think there are a whole lot of people out there who feel the same way; most of them don't post here on the boards though. They're the "casual" consumers and "impulse" buyers and "people who pick up a PHB because one of their friends is starting a game".
I guess it's different if you're one of those people who feels they have to buy every single book that comes out for the RPG's you play. I'm not sure what to say to those people except that maybe you should step back, and realize that you have free will. You can choose to buy only the books that you want, not the books you feel like you "need to have". I played and DM'd 2e, 3e and 3.5e since they were all released, and I only had the core books plus three or four extras. The other players would buy extra books occasionally if it seemed like something they really wanted. And there is still a ton of material that I never used. There are quite a few monsters in the original MM that I never threw at them; there are a few hundred plot hooks in the original Eberron Campaign Setting that never saw the light of day; and probably fifty prestige classes that have never been used. The web is full of completely free material you can use as well. And if all else fails, you can write your own.
...
This doesn't bother me at all; I'd rather see four years of quality products capped by a Revised 4E than ten years of bloated, poorly-balanced, poorly-written, and poorly-edited splat.
...
That right there. You have a gift for being succinct, that I don't have.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I'd still buy the 4th edition core books even if they said "Yes" to "Will there be a 4.5?" Maybe I'm just completely insane, but I think $60-$70 is a pretty fair price for a solid year or two of fun. I spend more than that on books, movies, CDs, and video games that last for much less time. I think there are a whole lot of people out there who feel the same way; most of them don't post here on the boards though. They're the "casual" consumers and "impulse" buyers and "people who pick up a PHB because one of their friends is starting a game".
The point is, people, and company representatives especially, will answer questions according to what they gain by answering one way or the other. When you get the truth, it's because it serves them.
And there are questions, like this one, that it is just futile to ask. It may seem cynical, but since I've been assessing what people say in light of their motivations, I have been way less surprised and disapointed.
You see this 4.5e issue with much wisdom and rationality, and that is to your credit, but are you representative enough of the majority? If WotC said "We'll release 4.5e in 3 years if it is required", I'd bet the farm these forums would burn to the ground.
I guess it's different if you're one of those people who feels they have to buy every single book that comes out for the RPG's you play. I'm not sure what to say to those people except that maybe you should step back, and realize that you have free will. You can choose to buy only the books that you want, not the books you feel like you "need to have". I played and DM'd 2e, 3e and 3.5e since they were all released, and I only had the core books plus three or four extras. The other players would buy extra books occasionally if it seemed like something they really wanted. And there is still a ton of material that I never used. There are quite a few monsters in the original MM that I never threw at them; there are a few hundred plot hooks in the original Eberron Campaign Setting that never saw the light of day; and probably fifty prestige classes that have never been used. The web is full of completely free material you can use as well. And if all else fails, you can write your own.
That's another topic. I know what you mean though: when I look back at my 3-feet tall D&D 3.5 library (and that's not every WotC book published), I'm always thinking "Do I even use 20% of all that?".
Stick to the edition you like to play in your group, and let the fat cats be.
We were playing the first 4th ed mini encounter in my group last week, when I mentioned a rule and my mate says..'err.. your talking about THAC0'.. yeh.. I'm still living in the past.. but hey, that was my favorite ed.
Call me a cynic, but I would not be suprised if 4.5 is already gathering dust in the WotC vaults, why they work on 5th ed. (You know that intel are already working on pentiumVII, didn't you?)
Stick to the edition you like to play in your group, and let the fat cats be.
We were playing the first 4th ed mini encounter in my group last week, when I mentioned a rule and my mate says..'err.. your talking about THAC0'.. yeh.. I'm still living in the past.. but hey, that was my favorite ed.
Cynicism isn't necessarily unhealthy, but frankly sir, it's ridiculous to propose that the revision is finished before 4E is even released. (I speculate some of the designers who've spent the past few months working their butts off to get 4E ready in time would be insulted.)
But I agree with you, BroadinMineshafter; people ought to play whatever edition or game they most like to play. Period. AD&D is not without its charms.
3.5 was not an anomaly. We had Skills & Powers in 2E (2.5E) and Unearthed Arcana in 1E (1.5E). Each was slightly different in its presentation, but they had a huge impact on the game at the time they came out. These weren't just splatbooks, they had some fundamental changes to the game (Cantrips, 0-level characters, reordered and expanded classes and revised demi-human class level limits for Unearthed Arcana).
You don't understand what you're talking about. Skills & Powers and Unearthed Arcana did NOT supersede the core books, nor did they replace them. 3.5 ENDED use of the 3.0 core and splatbooks because they weren't quite compatible. It ended production of the 3rd edition core books entirely. Skills & Powers and Unearthed Arcana did nothing of the sort.
I'm sorry you don't get it. Those WERE just splatbooks. No, don't argue. You're wrong. Yes, they changed stuff, but guess what? They were still splatbooks because THEY WEREN'T THE MAIN RULES. I know this may be difficult for you to comprehend, but it is the case.
3.5 ended the production of 3.0 books by WotC. Did Skills & Powers and Unearthed Arcana do away with and replace the PHB, DMG, and MM for 1st and 2nd edition?
No.
Royal prediction: no 4.5, but 5e sometime between 6 and 9 years from now, probably closer to the 6 end.
5th will be out in 7-8 years.
You know, on the other side of this whole "new editions coming too soon" dilemma, I can think of quite a few great RPGs, all of which are far younger than D&D, that have gone through anywhere between 3-6 editions since their inceptions in the 80s and 90s.
On the other hand, they suck.
The real and legit complaint is that 4e requires you to keep track of where everybody is.
While minis are the easiest and most attractive way of doing it, they are not the only way.
It is not a "legitimate" complaint that 4e requires you to keep track of where everyone is. EVERY edition, EVEN second, required it. Positions were least important in second edition. They were very important in 3.x, though, so claiming this is a change is, of course, wrong.
Back on topic, don't think there will be a 4.5 at all. Like another poster said, it will be PH2, DMG2, etc with DDI filling in the void until 5E.
Are those going to change the core rules?
The answer is no. They're going to add stuff, but they won't be subtractive and won't act as errata.
That means nothing, because those same designers also fervently denied a 4th edition, and look where we are now.
And your comments mean nothing because you've no evidence, and we do have evidence. Who should we prefer? The guy who has no evidence, no understanding of business, no understanding of the purpose of 3.5, and no credibility, or the people who have all those things?
Online resources won't change the text printed in books, they'd have to print new books for that. Plus, these are also the same designers who fervently denied there would be a 4th edition, take their word with a grain of salt.
When did a designer say there wouldn't be a fourth edition? Citation needed.
Oh, that's right, you don't have one.
Sorry, you lose.
People MAY HAVE denied that 4th edition was in production, but that's entirely different from saying it wouldn't ever come out.
...
People MAY HAVE denied that 4th edition was in production, but that's entirely different from saying it wouldn't ever come out.
This.
...And, to paraphrase:
People MAY deny that a future edition of D&D is in production, but that's entirely different from saying it won't ever come out.
We know that there will be another D&D beyond 4E, and I quite literally pity the fool
who, at this point, doubts that. The only question is when and what it will be called.12/20/2012 - Guess what day it is
End of the world Mayan Calendar. :P
You know, on the other side of this whole "new editions coming too soon" dilemma, I can think of quite a few great RPGs, all of which are far younger than D&D, that have gone through anywhere between 3-6 editions since their inceptions in the 80s and 90s.
Also those game companies did not have the resources to release supplemental material as often as WOTC. For many (not all) of these games 'new edition' replaced what WOTC would include as supplemental material.
Generally I agree.
additionally, marketers have analyzed that for games at least, 7 years is the optimum time for a new release.
Never. There's no need because the rules can be updated at any time via the DDI.
So the DDI is required then. ;)
So the DDI is required then. ;)
See some potential for abuse with this. Given their current money strategy, things keep looking more grim to me.
What is sad is I doubt they care they have this image from their customer base.
It'll take dust in the shop while I play 4 (or 3), simple.
Or is there any Superior Force which compels us to burn money on every stupid thing that they come up to at the marketing section?
If they try to fool customers again (and I can understand new players, but still I wonder how could many people buy 3.5 when they already had 3 -and cry thereafter that WotC fooled them-), may they fall without mercy as they deserve (hard to think that it may happen in such a way).