When the fighter is a better fighter? Or Heroes of the Fallen Lands - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

When the fighter is a better fighter? Or Heroes of the Fallen Lands

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
greylord
Sep 12, 2010 2:09:15 So I get to preview over the copy tonight, and noticed a few things on my read through.

First, I thought the 4e core books did a good job at introducing the ideas in a logical and easily understandable method. The same goes for this first class book in the essentials line. There were some interesting things about it, and one thing that I don't know if it's been spelled out elsewhere before. It was new to me upon reading it, so maybe it popped up somewhere and I never really had it sink in.

I'm not revealing everything and it's mother, just some things I noted that raised my eyebrows a little.

Action Points on page 23...you get these after reaching a milestone...we all knew that...what was a surprise to me is that it is SPELLED OUT that a milestone is after TWO encounters. I don't know if it's been spelled out like that before.

Determining Ability scores on page 38...you have balanced scores with one 16, a 14, and three scores that don't grant bonuses. You then get other choices beyond standard point array, the second called Specialist Scores where you have an 18, a 14, and then 3 scores without bonuses, and one score that gives you a -1 penalty. Finally, your third choice is called Dual Specialist Scores where you have two scores of 16, a 12, two scores which don't grant bonuses, and a score that gives you a -1 penalty.

In otherwords, you don't use the Standard point array at all really. I think these are all options shown on the table in the original Core PHB, with the ways that you can customize your score via point buy. You don't have point buy in the book however, just those three choices.

Races are some interesting changes with the additional choices of bonuses...and Humans no longer get an extra at-will, but instead a +4 once per encounter to something like an attack or skill check...etc.

It lists that they will have Drow, Dragonborn, Tieflings (all which I'm not 100% fond of in core...but they are there) in forgotten Kingdoms, along with the Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and once again the human (another option of human or the same?)

Also, before anyone asks...the ASSASSIN IS INCLUDED...BUT NOT IN THE BOOK. It is specified that it and the Revenant can be found on DDi, and specifically the build for the Assassin is going to be the executioner.

Classes are interesting. The listings of what is too be found in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms which have been discussed elsewhere are listed with their subsequent builds, and I imagine they will be done in a similar manner as those in Fallen Lands. What's interesting is that the Builds...don't really seem like builds, but more like subclasses.

This becomes especially apparant with the Wizard (Mage) and the Fighters (Knight & Slayer). That's what titled this thread...and more on that later.

The cleric has their advancement tables with experience (Every class has their separate tables with separate experience listed) but have two different domains they can choose from. The powers of these domains replace certain power selections you would get in the normal 4e core rules...but it seems that they are restrictive. If you choose a domain as a cleric...it implies that you must continue choosing powers from the domain you chose.

This raises the question of whether you can actually mix and match domain powers or not? Perhaps domains are peculiar to Warpriests? They have other powers they choose that are easily integrated into the normal 4e general cleric, but the essentials cleric, the warpriest besides being able to pick normal powers, has the extra abilities and powers from their domain. It is spelled out in their advancement table.

My questions on that of course are whether you can mix and match these or not. If you cannot, it opens a completely new can of worms. As there are only two domains offered here...when are they going to offer a NEW book with a bunch of other domains centered on what clerics (warpriest) can or cannot do.

Mages follow an interesting path as well, that of getting the schools. Unlike Clerics, they can choose any spells they want, but spells are assigned specific schools. The schools included in the book are Evocation, Illusion, and enchantment. Some of these spells (such as fireball) are classified, but it brings into question other spells. Fireball wasn't classified as evocation in the original core book, though there ARE spells labled as illusion and such. If it is labeled as an illusion, does that mean if I take the school of illusion, I also get the bonuses for illusion spells with those labeled as such in other magic/arcane books? What's more, this would seem to hurt the evocation school a little, as I do not believe as many spells have been labeled as evocation specifically...or maybe even as enchantment.

Schools add bonuses at different levels. Of interest, it calls Mages as specialized wizards (or wizards that specialize in specific schools of magic 192, but then states that Mages are widely known as generalists among wizards on page 199 under apprentice mage...I'd say they mean for Mage to mean the first definition, but it is odd that they throw in the second one that is exactly the opposite only a few pages later). This is spelled out under the Mage experience tables when and where you get this bonus. It would seem like Clerics, that there is a whole gambit for them to make another book that has the different schools like conjuration, divination, etc. listed and perhaps even expand upon this entire school concept.

What makes this more interesting is that there is only one paragon path for the mage, the Enigmatic Mage...BUT...it might as well be three different paragon paths. You have the Evocation Enigmatic mage which has different bonuses for it than the Illusionist Enigmatic Mage, which is different than the Enchantment Engimatic mage. Theoretically, you could have the Engimatic mage Paragon Path continued for all the schools...but have it completely done with different bonueses like the schools in the book are done...for each and every new school they create...in a new Class or Arcane book.

Skills have already had an article recently about them on this site...which is interesting to see how it may interact with the book.

The thing that made me suddenly go back to look over the player's handbook to make sure I was seeing things correctly was the Fighter though. There are two of them, the Slayer, and the Knight. The Slayer is nothing really special, just gives the fighter more of a striker ability rather than a defender. It IS different than how I understood it from the Red box. In the Red box it appeared as if the Fighter/Slayer got to add STR+CONS to their damage...however in the Essentials book it is definately STR+DEX that they add. It's not the Slayer that raised my eyebrows...it was the Fighter (Knight).

This is a whole new ballgame. First off, they start off with the Plate Armor proficiency. Was there another build in the Martial books that gave the fighter the Plate Armor proficiency right off? As far as I can see this doesn't take any extra feats or anything from them either.

Next off, they get something better then marking their foes, they get a Defender Aura. It doesn't specify how big or small this is, so I guess it could be nerfed to only being you...but the wording implies it includes everyone on the battlefield UNLESS they are actually marked by someone else. If they aren't...it gives the same effect as being marked overall, they get a penalty to attack unless it is you or someone else with this aura active. That's dang good, I'd say better than trying to mark a creature even. You start it with a minor action...and then it goes on forever until you stop it with a minor action.

Those are the big differences right there that made me think...hmm...it's like the fighter...but a LOT better. With that...why would anyone ever choose the generic fighter again? Unless the Knight really is a subclass and you are completely restricted to the experience table that shows his advancement and specific abilities he/she gains per level...that could open a whole new book of worms. Just saying...

Of course the feats (feats starting on page 309) ...which I imagine all fighters can also gain access too are useful as well. They have focusing on each type of weapon group called expertise...which gives you +1 at heroic, +2 at paragon...+3...well you get the picture...along with a special advantage to each weapon group...but also with a feat called Master of Arms (page 316) you get a similar bonus with every weapon...do these stack? In addition you have Weapon Focus...that advances in the exact same way...do these ALL STACK? This means theoretically you could have a +9 bonus at least from feats at the beginning of Epic?

The fighter just keeps getting better and better. They include Melee training which allows classes to use another stat besides strength for attacking...more in the book, but nice for them to have that.

Overall it appears that the fighter got a major uplift in this book, perhaps even stronger all around if they Knight doesn't have to stick with the experience tables advancement specifically. It would depend on whether they are simply a build...or an actual subclass that is restricted as per it's subclass advancements.

In that same light...if all of these are subclasses restricted to their advancements, much like the Cleric Domains and mage Schools...there needs to be another book out with a few more subclasses of the same classes (so not the other essentials coming out, but books focused on these subclasses for fighters, mages, cleric domains...etc.) in my opinion...or at least they leave the door WIDE OPEN.

Before anyone asks...as I was just pointing out some questions and eye brow raising items in this book...I REALLY like how the book appears. They re-used a LOT of artwork from other 4e books, but what I really like is it's organization, it's size...and how everything is in a single column. It's not split...it's the perfect typeset for a book of it's size. If you've been in scouting as a leader...or scout, the book is roughly the same size as the Boy Scout Handbook, in height, width, and length. I really like the size, makes it very easy to carry and be mobile with.

Anyways, I know many of you will be getting the book soon, perhaps in the next few weeks...so starting the opening conversation on how to actually apply some of these new items now for commentary.

What are your thoughts on that?

#2
BoltHammer
Sep 12, 2010 2:42:54 Well to clarify a couple of things. The Knight's "marking" ability has a range of Aura 1, so it only affects creatures adjacent to it.

Also as with the current (aka non-essentials) flavor of 4E, those feats would not stack as they are specific bonus types (+X Feat bonus to Y). So you'd just apply the highest bonus of that type.

I think this book is pretty cool to all-in-all. I am still quite the noob to 4E. I only started with the DnD Encounters: Dark Sun. I think Essentials will be a good way for me to learn the ropes, as DS was a bit brutal (although still fun). Also, the Essentials flavor of the DM material may be an easier learning vehicle to help enjoy the game behind the screen someday.

I am a little concerned on how the Slayer Fighter will hold up to its striker role compared to the Thief and the upcoming Ranger (Scout); and other strikers in general. I think I will have to field a Slayer in Encounters Season 3 to see how it all works out.
#3
mangled_mike
Sep 12, 2010 4:39:21 Human has a choice between essentials +4 to a failed roll or at will.
makes for a tactical choice depending on class/classes.
#4
Iskandr
Sep 12, 2010 9:36:59
Human has a choice between essentials +4 to a failed roll or at will.
makes for a tactical choice depending on class/classes.

I noticed this on the errata posted earlier and must say it is very nice.
#5
Tony_Vargas
Sep 12, 2010 20:33:27 The key to mix-n-match Essentials and 4e powers is that the power must have a level, you can then trade it in for a same or lower level power.

Mage powers have levels. Wizard powers are being errata'd to have schools at some point, so the Mage will have plenty to choose from. Wizards can also choose mage powers, so they're getting some new goodies.

Warpriest powers have levels, so they can swap out for pre-existing Cleric powers, and WIS-based Clerics can snag the new powers, too, if they want.

Slayers, Knights, & Theives don't have levels associated with their at-will stances, move-action tricks, or encounter 'utilities,' (even thought they get the last at given levels). So, they can trade out nothing but their leveled utilities, and, exiting Fighters and Rogues, likewise, are getting very little out of the new Essentials material.

Combine this with the inevitable power inflation, and builds like the pre-Essentials Fighter and Rogue, and the STR Cleric, who cannot access new goodies from Essentials and beyon are going to be left behind.
#6
VaultDweller
Sep 13, 2010 7:49:27 I only skimmed this post, but you've misunderstood a few things.

Next off, they get something better then marking their foes, they get a Defender Aura. It doesn't specify how big or small this is, so I guess it could be nerfed to only being you...but the wording implies it includes everyone on the battlefield UNLESS they are actually marked by someone else. If they aren't...it gives the same effect as being marked overall, they get a penalty to attack unless it is you or someone else with this aura active. That's dang good, I'd say better than trying to mark a creature even. You start it with a minor action...and then it goes on forever until you stop it with a minor action.

It's an aura 1. It applies only to enemies that are adjacent to you. As soon as they get a square away from you, they're free to do whatever they want. The classic fighter mark enforcement combination of Combat Challenge + Combat Superiority is almost definitely more potent than Defender's Aura.

Of course the feats (feats starting on page 309) ...which I imagine all fighters can also gain access too are useful as well. They have focusing on each type of weapon group called expertise...which gives you +1 at heroic, +2 at paragon...+3...well you get the picture...along with a special advantage to each weapon group...but also with a feat called Master of Arms (page 316) you get a similar bonus with every weapon...do these stack? In addition you have Weapon Focus...that advances in the exact same way...do these ALL STACK? This means theoretically you could have a +9 bonus at least from feats at the beginning of Epic?

OK. The Expertise feats grant a feat bonus to attack rolls, the same as the Weapon Expertise feat we've already had. The new Expertise feats are unquestionably superior to the old Weapon Expertise feats, as the bonus scales at level 11 and 21 instead of 15 and 25, and also because the new Expertise feats provide an additional bonus of some type with the weapon group.

However, the new Expertise feats do not stack with the old ones. They both provide a Feat bonus, and feat bonuses never stack. The generic Expertise feat, Master of Arms, is also a feat bonus, so it does not stack with the group-specific Expertise feats.

Weapon Focus is the same thing that it's always been, with the exception that it's been made to no longer apply to weapliment usage. Weapon Focus is a feat bonus to damage - it certainly can't stack with Expertise, as Expertise and Focus don't apply a bonus to the same thing. Expertise provides a bonus to attack rolls, Focus provides a bonus to damage rolls.

So, there is no +9 in epic tier. In Epic tier you have a +3 feat bonus to attacks from Expertise and a +3 feat bonus to damage from Focus... just like you already had before Essentials. The difference is that you can now have your Expertise bonus at level 21 instead of 25, and you get an extra perk to go along with your feat tax.

The fighter just keeps getting better and better. They include Melee training which allows classes to use another stat besides strength for attacking...more in the book, but nice for them to have that.

Melee training is not a new option. It's an option that they updated (aka "nerfed") for Essentials.

Overall it appears that the fighter got a major uplift in this book, perhaps even stronger all around if they Knight doesn't have to stick with the experience tables advancement specifically. It would depend on whether they are simply a build...or an actual subclass that is restricted as per it's subclass advancements.

The Knight is more or less restricted to what you see in the experience table. They have full freedom for utility powers and feats, but beyond that, they're pretty much locked in.
#7
hunterian7
Sep 13, 2010 12:17:21 Two encounters per milestone? I hope hard encounters are in essentials. I have always counted one hard encounter as a milestone event.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 greylord Sep 12, 2010 2:09:15	So I get to preview over the copy tonight, and noticed a few things on my read through. First, I thought the 4e core books did a good job at introducing the ideas in a logical and easily understandable method. The same goes for this first class book in the essentials line. There were some interesting things about it, and one thing that I don't know if it's been spelled out elsewhere before. It was new to me upon reading it, so maybe it popped up somewhere and I never really had it sink in. I'm not revealing everything and it's mother, just some things I noted that raised my eyebrows a little. Action Points on page 23...you get these after reaching a milestone...we all knew that...what was a surprise to me is that it is SPELLED OUT that a milestone is after TWO encounters. I don't know if it's been spelled out like that before. Determining Ability scores on page 38...you have balanced scores with one 16, a 14, and three scores that don't grant bonuses. You then get other choices beyond standard point array, the second called Specialist Scores where you have an 18, a 14, and then 3 scores without bonuses, and one score that gives you a -1 penalty. Finally, your third choice is called Dual Specialist Scores where you have two scores of 16, a 12, two scores which don't grant bonuses, and a score that gives you a -1 penalty. In otherwords, you don't use the Standard point array at all really. I think these are all options shown on the table in the original Core PHB, with the ways that you can customize your score via point buy. You don't have point buy in the book however, just those three choices. Races are some interesting changes with the additional choices of bonuses...and Humans no longer get an extra at-will, but instead a +4 once per encounter to something like an attack or skill check...etc. It lists that they will have Drow, Dragonborn, Tieflings (all which I'm not 100% fond of in core...but they are there) in forgotten Kingdoms, along with the Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and once again the human (another option of human or the same?) Also, before anyone asks...the ASSASSIN IS INCLUDED...BUT NOT IN THE BOOK. It is specified that it and the Revenant can be found on DDi, and specifically the build for the Assassin is going to be the executioner. Classes are interesting. The listings of what is too be found in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms which have been discussed elsewhere are listed with their subsequent builds, and I imagine they will be done in a similar manner as those in Fallen Lands. What's interesting is that the Builds...don't really seem like builds, but more like subclasses. This becomes especially apparant with the Wizard (Mage) and the Fighters (Knight & Slayer). That's what titled this thread...and more on that later. The cleric has their advancement tables with experience (Every class has their separate tables with separate experience listed) but have two different domains they can choose from. The powers of these domains replace certain power selections you would get in the normal 4e core rules...but it seems that they are restrictive. If you choose a domain as a cleric...it implies that you must continue choosing powers from the domain you chose. This raises the question of whether you can actually mix and match domain powers or not? Perhaps domains are peculiar to Warpriests? They have other powers they choose that are easily integrated into the normal 4e general cleric, but the essentials cleric, the warpriest besides being able to pick normal powers, has the extra abilities and powers from their domain. It is spelled out in their advancement table. My questions on that of course are whether you can mix and match these or not. If you cannot, it opens a completely new can of worms. As there are only two domains offered here...when are they going to offer a NEW book with a bunch of other domains centered on what clerics (warpriest) can or cannot do. Mages follow an interesting path as well, that of getting the schools. Unlike Clerics, they can choose any spells they want, but spells are assigned specific schools. The schools included in the book are Evocation, Illusion, and enchantment. Some of these spells (such as fireball) are classified, but it brings into question other spells. Fireball wasn't classified as evocation in the original core book, though there ARE spells labled as illusion and such. If it is labeled as an illusion, does that mean if I take the school of illusion, I also get the bonuses for illusion spells with those labeled as such in other magic/arcane books? What's more, this would seem to hurt the evocation school a little, as I do not believe as many spells have been labeled as evocation specifically...or maybe even as enchantment. Schools add bonuses at different levels. Of interest, it calls Mages as specialized wizards (or wizards that specialize in specific schools of magic 192, but then states that Mages are widely known as generalists among wizards on page 199 under apprentice mage...I'd say they mean for Mage to mean the first definition, but it is odd that they throw in the second one that is exactly the opposite only a few pages later). This is spelled out under the Mage experience tables when and where you get this bonus. It would seem like Clerics, that there is a whole gambit for them to make another book that has the different schools like conjuration, divination, etc. listed and perhaps even expand upon this entire school concept. What makes this more interesting is that there is only one paragon path for the mage, the Enigmatic Mage...BUT...it might as well be three different paragon paths. You have the Evocation Enigmatic mage which has different bonuses for it than the Illusionist Enigmatic Mage, which is different than the Enchantment Engimatic mage. Theoretically, you could have the Engimatic mage Paragon Path continued for all the schools...but have it completely done with different bonueses like the schools in the book are done...for each and every new school they create...in a new Class or Arcane book. Skills have already had an article recently about them on this site...which is interesting to see how it may interact with the book. The thing that made me suddenly go back to look over the player's handbook to make sure I was seeing things correctly was the Fighter though. There are two of them, the Slayer, and the Knight. The Slayer is nothing really special, just gives the fighter more of a striker ability rather than a defender. It IS different than how I understood it from the Red box. In the Red box it appeared as if the Fighter/Slayer got to add STR+CONS to their damage...however in the Essentials book it is definately STR+DEX that they add. It's not the Slayer that raised my eyebrows...it was the Fighter (Knight). This is a whole new ballgame. First off, they start off with the Plate Armor proficiency. Was there another build in the Martial books that gave the fighter the Plate Armor proficiency right off? As far as I can see this doesn't take any extra feats or anything from them either. Next off, they get something better then marking their foes, they get a Defender Aura. It doesn't specify how big or small this is, so I guess it could be nerfed to only being you...but the wording implies it includes everyone on the battlefield UNLESS they are actually marked by someone else. If they aren't...it gives the same effect as being marked overall, they get a penalty to attack unless it is you or someone else with this aura active. That's dang good, I'd say better than trying to mark a creature even. You start it with a minor action...and then it goes on forever until you stop it with a minor action. Those are the big differences right there that made me think...hmm...it's like the fighter...but a LOT better. With that...why would anyone ever choose the generic fighter again? Unless the Knight really is a subclass and you are completely restricted to the experience table that shows his advancement and specific abilities he/she gains per level...that could open a whole new book of worms. Just saying... Of course the feats (feats starting on page 309) ...which I imagine all fighters can also gain access too are useful as well. They have focusing on each type of weapon group called expertise...which gives you +1 at heroic, +2 at paragon...+3...well you get the picture...along with a special advantage to each weapon group...but also with a feat called Master of Arms (page 316) you get a similar bonus with every weapon...do these stack? In addition you have Weapon Focus...that advances in the exact same way...do these ALL STACK? This means theoretically you could have a +9 bonus at least from feats at the beginning of Epic? The fighter just keeps getting better and better. They include Melee training which allows classes to use another stat besides strength for attacking...more in the book, but nice for them to have that. Overall it appears that the fighter got a major uplift in this book, perhaps even stronger all around if they Knight doesn't have to stick with the experience tables advancement specifically. It would depend on whether they are simply a build...or an actual subclass that is restricted as per it's subclass advancements. In that same light...if all of these are subclasses restricted to their advancements, much like the Cleric Domains and mage Schools...there needs to be another book out with a few more subclasses of the same classes (so not the other essentials coming out, but books focused on these subclasses for fighters, mages, cleric domains...etc.) in my opinion...or at least they leave the door WIDE OPEN. Before anyone asks...as I was just pointing out some questions and eye brow raising items in this book...I REALLY like how the book appears. They re-used a LOT of artwork from other 4e books, but what I really like is it's organization, it's size...and how everything is in a single column. It's not split...it's the perfect typeset for a book of it's size. If you've been in scouting as a leader...or scout, the book is roughly the same size as the Boy Scout Handbook, in height, width, and length. I really like the size, makes it very easy to carry and be mobile with. Anyways, I know many of you will be getting the book soon, perhaps in the next few weeks...so starting the opening conversation on how to actually apply some of these new items now for commentary. What are your thoughts on that?
#2 BoltHammer Sep 12, 2010 2:42:54	Well to clarify a couple of things. The Knight's "marking" ability has a range of Aura 1, so it only affects creatures adjacent to it. Also as with the current (aka non-essentials) flavor of 4E, those feats would not stack as they are specific bonus types (+X Feat bonus to Y). So you'd just apply the highest bonus of that type. I think this book is pretty cool to all-in-all. I am still quite the noob to 4E. I only started with the DnD Encounters: Dark Sun. I think Essentials will be a good way for me to learn the ropes, as DS was a bit brutal (although still fun). Also, the Essentials flavor of the DM material may be an easier learning vehicle to help enjoy the game behind the screen someday. I am a little concerned on how the Slayer Fighter will hold up to its striker role compared to the Thief and the upcoming Ranger (Scout); and other strikers in general. I think I will have to field a Slayer in Encounters Season 3 to see how it all works out.
#3 mangled_mike Sep 12, 2010 4:39:21	Human has a choice between essentials +4 to a failed roll or at will. makes for a tactical choice depending on class/classes.
#4 Iskandr Sep 12, 2010 9:36:59	Human has a choice between essentials +4 to a failed roll or at will. makes for a tactical choice depending on class/classes. I noticed this on the errata posted earlier and must say it is very nice.
#5 Tony_Vargas Sep 12, 2010 20:33:27	The key to mix-n-match Essentials and 4e powers is that the power must have a level, you can then trade it in for a same or lower level power. Mage powers have levels. Wizard powers are being errata'd to have schools at some point, so the Mage will have plenty to choose from. Wizards can also choose mage powers, so they're getting some new goodies. Warpriest powers have levels, so they can swap out for pre-existing Cleric powers, and WIS-based Clerics can snag the new powers, too, if they want. Slayers, Knights, & Theives don't have levels associated with their at-will stances, move-action tricks, or encounter 'utilities,' (even thought they get the last at given levels). So, they can trade out nothing but their leveled utilities, and, exiting Fighters and Rogues, likewise, are getting very little out of the new Essentials material. Combine this with the inevitable power inflation, and builds like the pre-Essentials Fighter and Rogue, and the STR Cleric, who cannot access new goodies from Essentials and beyon are going to be left behind.
#6 VaultDweller Sep 13, 2010 7:49:27	I only skimmed this post, but you've misunderstood a few things. Next off, they get something better then marking their foes, they get a Defender Aura. It doesn't specify how big or small this is, so I guess it could be nerfed to only being you...but the wording implies it includes everyone on the battlefield UNLESS they are actually marked by someone else. If they aren't...it gives the same effect as being marked overall, they get a penalty to attack unless it is you or someone else with this aura active. That's dang good, I'd say better than trying to mark a creature even. You start it with a minor action...and then it goes on forever until you stop it with a minor action. It's an aura 1. It applies only to enemies that are adjacent to you. As soon as they get a square away from you, they're free to do whatever they want. The classic fighter mark enforcement combination of Combat Challenge + Combat Superiority is almost definitely more potent than Defender's Aura. Of course the feats (feats starting on page 309) ...which I imagine all fighters can also gain access too are useful as well. They have focusing on each type of weapon group called expertise...which gives you +1 at heroic, +2 at paragon...+3...well you get the picture...along with a special advantage to each weapon group...but also with a feat called Master of Arms (page 316) you get a similar bonus with every weapon...do these stack? In addition you have Weapon Focus...that advances in the exact same way...do these ALL STACK? This means theoretically you could have a +9 bonus at least from feats at the beginning of Epic? OK. The Expertise feats grant a feat bonus to attack rolls, the same as the Weapon Expertise feat we've already had. The new Expertise feats are unquestionably superior to the old Weapon Expertise feats, as the bonus scales at level 11 and 21 instead of 15 and 25, and also because the new Expertise feats provide an additional bonus of some type with the weapon group. However, the new Expertise feats do not stack with the old ones. They both provide a Feat bonus, and feat bonuses never stack. The generic Expertise feat, Master of Arms, is also a feat bonus, so it does not stack with the group-specific Expertise feats. Weapon Focus is the same thing that it's always been, with the exception that it's been made to no longer apply to weapliment usage. Weapon Focus is a feat bonus to damage - it certainly can't stack with Expertise, as Expertise and Focus don't apply a bonus to the same thing. Expertise provides a bonus to attack rolls, Focus provides a bonus to damage rolls. So, there is no +9 in epic tier. In Epic tier you have a +3 feat bonus to attacks from Expertise and a +3 feat bonus to damage from Focus... just like you already had before Essentials. The difference is that you can now have your Expertise bonus at level 21 instead of 25, and you get an extra perk to go along with your feat tax. The fighter just keeps getting better and better. They include Melee training which allows classes to use another stat besides strength for attacking...more in the book, but nice for them to have that. Melee training is not a new option. It's an option that they updated (aka "nerfed") for Essentials. Overall it appears that the fighter got a major uplift in this book, perhaps even stronger all around if they Knight doesn't have to stick with the experience tables advancement specifically. It would depend on whether they are simply a build...or an actual subclass that is restricted as per it's subclass advancements. The Knight is more or less restricted to what you see in the experience table. They have full freedom for utility powers and feats, but beyond that, they're pretty much locked in.
#7 hunterian7 Sep 13, 2010 12:17:21	Two encounters per milestone? I hope hard encounters are in essentials. I have always counted one hard encounter as a milestone event.