I though that they where going to give more charter themes in a new book that would come out latter this year but it seems to have vanished from the catalog. what gives
There was a recent Rule of Three article soliciting our suggestions. I havent seen a thread started yet. Maybe we should make one.
That book was cancled, I believe the material will be coming out in the form of a Dragon article.
There was a recent Rule of Three article soliciting our suggestions. I havent seen a thread started yet. Maybe we should make one.
I don't think that they would put a new chater buil rule in the magazines. They would use a hard cove book and sell it in the stores.
I am still disappointed one can not use themes in OCB unless in the Dark Sun Campaign.
I don't like this at all. I really liked the hero themes and wanted some more stander one you could fit in to almost any campaign, like Ryalty, Experimented on, and Dragonsoul. but insead will will have more themes that will only be good for one setting
Just heard the podcast. It pretty much says that the hero builder book was canceld so theu would have more time to test out the more outlandest new rules. ajd we would have to wait untill Neverwinter Campaign Setting untill we get some more themes.
I don't like this at all. I really liked the hero themes and wanted some more stander one you could fit in to almost any campaign, like Ryalty, Experimented on, and Dragonsoul. but insead will will have more themes that will only be good for one setting
Neverwinter is an expansion (contraction?) of the Forgotten Realms Setting, focusing on a narrow area. Since Forgotten Realms is pretty generic fantasy as far as settings are concerned, I don't think it would break anything if the Themes introduced in that book were widely available across campaigns.
In other words, it is too soon to be disappointed about the next place Themes being rolled out is Neverwinter. We simply don't have enough information.
Just heard the podcast. It pretty much says that the hero builder book was canceld so theu would have more time to test out the more outlandest new rules. ajd we would have to wait untill Neverwinter Campaign Setting untill we get some more themes.
I don't like this at all. I really liked the hero themes and wanted some more stander one you could fit in to almost any campaign, like Ryalty, Experimented on, and Dragonsoul. but insead will will have more themes that will only be good for one setting
Neverwinter is an expansion (contraction?) of the Forgotten Realms Setting, focusing on a narrow area. Since Forgotten Realms is pretty generic fantasy as far as settings are concerned, I don't think it would break anything if the Themes introduced in that book were widely available across campaigns.
In other words, it is too soon to be disappointed about the next place Themes being rolled out is Neverwinter. We simply don't have enough information.
That's what they keep saying about HoS, but with each new preview we get more and more disappointed...
Really? Cause I thought the Shadowthief PP was pretty rad (even if it does require more bookkeeping) and I really kind of like the "folk tale" thing going on with the items (this tone may have even sold me on the book tbh).
The book contains Essentials style material in it. Lokiare would hate it even if each book came with a hundred dollar bill.
Really? Cause I thought the Shadowthief PP was pretty rad (even if it does require more bookkeeping) and I really kind of like the "folk tale" thing going on with the items (this tone may have even sold me on the book tbh).
The shadowthief seems ok, but honestly, its the Starpact Warlock as a PP in darker clothes.
The rare mace seems like it actually deserves the term rare...as long as its an undead campaign.
Really? Cause I thought the Shadowthief PP was pretty rad (even if it does require more bookkeeping) and I really kind of like the "folk tale" thing going on with the items (this tone may have even sold me on the book tbh).
The book contains Essentials style material in it. Lokiare would hate it even if each book came with a hundred dollar bill.
If they sold it for $40 and included a $100 dollar bill, I'd go out buy 10 of them and throw 9 of them in the trash after removing the $100 bill. I'd repeat until I stopped getting $100 bills.
Thanks for exaggerating and speaking for me... I really appreciate it... So what am I thinking now?
I don't care if it contains Essentials material. If it doesn't contain some pre-E material and full on shadow classes then no, your right I won't touch it with your ten foot pole.
Lets stick to what I actually say and quit making strawmen out of your own arguments.
What we have seen does not for me and others seem compelling enough to purchase the book. In making the book usable by all classes and races, they abandoned the whole point of a shadow power source. It may as well have been just a keyword and a boxed set with some monsters and a few player powers...
Really? Cause I thought the Shadowthief PP was pretty rad (even if it does require more bookkeeping) and I really kind of like the "folk tale" thing going on with the items (this tone may have even sold me on the book tbh).
The book contains Essentials style material in it. Lokiare would hate it even if each book came with a hundred dollar bill.
If they included a hundred dollar bill, I would put aside my general, slight disdain for essentials class design to acquire said book.
I am not so set in my ways that good things in new books will keep me away, even if said books contain less overall that I would use. It does, however, put such work further down the Ladder of Want™.
The book contains Essentials style material in it. Lokiare would hate it even if each book came with a hundred dollar bill.
If they sold it for $40 and included a $100 dollar bill, I'd go out buy 10 of them and throw 9 of them in the trash after removing the $100 bill. I'd repeat until I stopped getting $100 bills.
Thanks for exaggerating and speaking for me... I really appreciate it... So what am I thinking now?
I don't care if it contains Essentials material. If it doesn't contain some pre-E material and full on shadow classes then no, your right I won't touch it with your ten foot pole.
Lets stick to what I actually say and quit making strawmen out of your own arguments.
What we have seen does not for me and others seem compelling enough to purchase the book. In making the book usable by all classes and races, they abandoned the whole point of a shadow power source. It may as well have been just a keyword and a boxed set with some monsters and a few player powers...
I meant it tongue in cheek. My statement was ao obviously ridiculous that I felt a smiley was unneccessary.
And if it does contain pre-E material (like the Paragon Path you are so disappointed by upthread) and a full Shadow Class or two, what will you do?
Following your history, I expect you to move the goalposts and complain about how much Essentials material there was, or how little pre-E ("I meant at least two classes, not one" or "they developed two classes, why not four"), or some combination of the two.
If this is the be all, end all of the Shadow Power Source, then I share your disappointment. I doubt it will be, but I am not a generally negative person. I see further design potential for Shadow beyond this book and Gloowrought, so I expect to see it in the future. Your mileage obviously varies.
The book contains Essentials style material in it. Lokiare would hate it even if each book came with a hundred dollar bill.
If they sold it for $40 and included a $100 dollar bill, I'd go out buy 10 of them and throw 9 of them in the trash after removing the $100 bill. I'd repeat until I stopped getting $100 bills.
Thanks for exaggerating and speaking for me... I really appreciate it... So what am I thinking now?
I don't care if it contains Essentials material. If it doesn't contain some pre-E material and full on shadow classes then no, your right I won't touch it with your ten foot pole.
Lets stick to what I actually say and quit making strawmen out of your own arguments.
What we have seen does not for me and others seem compelling enough to purchase the book. In making the book usable by all classes and races, they abandoned the whole point of a shadow power source. It may as well have been just a keyword and a boxed set with some monsters and a few player powers...
I meant it tongue in cheek. My statement was ao obviously ridiculous that I felt a smiley was unneccessary.
And if it does contain pre-E material (like the Paragon Path you are so disappointed by upthread) and a full Shadow Class or two, what will you do?
Following your history, I expect you to move the goalposts and complain about how much Essentials material there was, or how little pre-E ("I meant at least two classes, not one" or "they developed two classes, why not four"), or some combination of the two.
If this is the be all, end all of the Shadow Power Source, then I share your disappointment. I doubt it will be, but I am not a generally negative person. I see further design potential for Shadow beyond this book and Gloowrought, so I expect to see it in the future. Your mileage obviously varies.
You like putting words in my mouth don't you? And straw-men seem to be your specialty...
I don't move goalposts I move on to the next subject to be debated. Apparently they switched out the hound for the shadow thief. I haven't had a chance to look at the new one, but a PP is not a new class. The only classes we have for shadow are the original pre-E Assassin which has a broken shroud mechanic, the Executioner which is not a full shadow class (it gets a few shadowy powers here and there), and a monster class that may or may not be Essentials or pre-E. Just to be clear, where did I say I wanted one shadow class? That's another straw-man argument. I want enough classes to fully support shadow as a separate power source. If its two classes that will fully support it, then I want two classes. If its four classes I want four. If its 36 classes I want 36. It needs to contain more than a single PP to support pre-E. I want to see some pre-E full class support, like a full pre-E class for shadow with two non-post-E sub-classes.
I don't move goalposts I move on to the next subject to be debated. Apparently they switched out the hound for the shadow thief. I haven't had a chance to look at the new one, but a PP is not a new class. The only classes we have for shadow are the original pre-E Assassin which has a broken shroud mechanic, the Executioner which is not a full shadow class (it gets a few shadowy powers here and there), and a monster class that may or may not be Essentials or pre-E. Just to be clear, where did I say I wanted one shadow class? That's another straw-man argument. I want enough classes to fully support shadow as a separate power source. If its two classes that will fully support it, then I want two classes. If its four classes I want four. If its 36 classes I want 36. It needs to contain more than a single PP to support pre-E. I want to see some pre-E full class support, like a full pre-E class for shadow with two non-post-E sub-classes.
You just moved them, right here, in two consecutive posts!
I don't care if it contains Essentials material. If it doesn't contain some pre-E material and full on shadow classes then no, your right I won't touch it with your ten foot pole.
followed by:
I want enough classes to fully support shadow as a separate power source. If its two classes that will fully support it, then I want two classes. If its four classes I want four. If its 36 classes I want 36. It needs to contain more than a single PP to support pre-E. I want to see some pre-E full class support, like a full pre-E class for shadow with two non-post-E sub-classes.
means that Wizards can NEVER satisfy you, that you know it.
And what the heck is a "non-post-E sub-class?" Subclass is, almost by definition, a post-E concept (a class created to have a 2E feel, thus the use of the term sub-class, while taking some elements from and giving some elements to a "parent" class in 4E). By creating an impossible category, you create an unattainable goal.
We don't in reality, want different things. Like you, I want to see at least four more AEDU Shadow classes (to be followed at some point by at least five AEDU Elemental classes), and at least four builds for each. I want to see the Assassin fixed. I want to see every currently available class fleshed out to at least four builds to bring them in line with the Martial Power Source. What differs is how long we are willing to wait for it and how long we want to see 4E survive before 5E comes out. The plan was that 4E was going to last until 2018. We can't get it all, right now, or it won't last that long.
I truly believe that for 4E to survive past 2013, the design space needed to be opened up into the kind of territory they are now exploring with Essentials, and I'm glad they did not wait until they had already run dry to start doing so. Is there any harm (honestly) in letting them explore this space for a while before they finish playing out the old design space?
I want to like you. I really do. And I doubt that you are this intractable around the table. When not posting about Essentials and post-E design, it sounds like you love the game and would be a hoot to play with.
You just moved them, right here, in two consecutive posts!I don't care if it contains Essentials material. If it doesn't contain some pre-E material and full on shadow classes then no, your right I won't touch it with your ten foot pole.
followed by:I want enough classes to fully support shadow as a separate power source. If its two classes that will fully support it, then I want two classes. If its four classes I want four. If its 36 classes I want 36. It needs to contain more than a single PP to support pre-E. I want to see some pre-E full class support, like a full pre-E class for shadow with two non-post-E sub-classes.
means that Wizards can NEVER satisfy you, that you know it.
I don't see those conflicting. I say 'some' and you assume I mean 1-2. Some to me is more than the minimum it takes to get the job done.
And what the heck is a "non-post-E sub-class?" Subclass is, almost by definition, a post-E concept (a class created to have a 2E feel, thus the use of the term sub-class, while taking some elements from and giving some elements to a "parent" class in 4E). By creating an impossible category, you create an unattainable goal.
Sorry typo, I meant build. Non-post-E-class-build.
We don't in reality, want different things. Like you, I want to see at least four more AEDU Shadow classes (to be followed at some point by at least five AEDU Elemental classes), and at least four builds for each. I want to see the Assassin fixed. I want to see every currently available class fleshed out to at least four builds to bring them in line with the Martial Power Source. What differs is how long we are willing to wait for it and how long we want to see 4E survive before 5E comes out. The plan was that 4E was going to last until 2018. We can't get it all, right now, or it won't last that long.
I agree with most of it. I would like to see 4E last a few more years, I'm just not confident that WotC is going to pull it off. They've already produced too many books. They've saturated the market with too much stuff and now they are backpedalling and saturating it with fluff.
I truly believe that for 4E to survive past 2013, the design space needed to be opened up into the kind of territory they are now exploring with Essentials, and I'm glad they did not wait until they had already run dry to start doing so. Is there any harm (honestly) in letting them explore this space for a while before they finish playing out the old design space?
Essentials is just a reset. A way to stave off the next edition. The problem is that it isn't universally liked, and by making it backwards compatible they lost the flexibility they needed to make it last. I don't think there is any harm in letting them play out the new design space, the problem is that they won't go back to the pre-E design space when they are done. They will just go right to 5E. That's why I'm keeping it on their minds, to let them know we aren't going to forget or let it go, you know like the Character Visualizer and other Adventure tools.
I want to like you. I really do. And I doubt that you are this intractable around the table. When not posting about Essentials and post-E design, it sounds like you love the game and would be a hoot to play with.
I'm actually a nice guy, just don't mess with my stuff. I do love the game and from what I'm told I make a compelling DM when I run my own stuff...