I understand rules updates are inevitable and the game is drifting toward a hybrid between paper and on-line content. But why not sell the glossy versions of rules updates, even if the on-line content is subscription-based? Folks that don't want to buy the glossy paper updates need not, but many will. This doesn't cut into new books, like an Arcane Power 2 or something. Also, anyone that suggests the books could then be more easily photocopied or ripped-off, hasn't checked the currently free torrent files on-line that already do that for ALL the hardbound books.
I am currently very very hesitant to buy the latest books, knowing they WILL BE outdated and useless in 1-2 years (Essentials, I'm staring at you). Thoughts?
I think you migh be alone in this idea. Why would anyone what to have to shuffle 200 sheets of paper? 
People would invariably keep them in a binder or folder. But they would have the option to replace/remove pages, which is an option they don't currently have.
Because you can. It's better than an outdated book that just stays at home on the shelf because it can't be trusted.
People would invariably keep them in a binder or folder. But they would have the option to replace/remove pages, which is an option they don't currently have.
And they could make copies or scan them into a computer to spread online so much more easily, too!
So, not likely to happen (Whether or not this SHOULD be a concern is a different discussion. That is IS a concern is a brute fact beyond debate). Also, honestly, bunch of unbound pages would seem less finished, less professional than a bound book. As a presentation point, this would kinda suck - makes the rules look like the Work In Progress stuff they pass around the office. Not the way you want to present somehting for people to buy.
And some people actually like having books. It's a very different feel from, say, a binder full of rules - I know this as I have actually dealt with both, sometimes in the same session at once.
I personally pay for the rules, the fluff and not least of all the art work, not the binding. Although I probably would pay for a custom binder for the rules, even if it were sold separately. At least then it would allow for rules updates to actually be easily kept together with the original core rules. It would even allow for insertion of house rules.
I am currently very very hesitant to buy the latest books, knowing they WILL BE outdated and useless in 1-2 years (Essentials, I'm staring at you). Thoughts?
Didn't they do this with 3e and didnt it fail so miserably they went back to hardcovers?
And why do you think that the hardcovers are outdated? Essentials is not a replacement product.
And some people actually like having books. It's a very different feel from, say, a binder full of rules - I know this as I have actually dealt with both, sometimes in the same session at once.
I'm not talking about a loose leaf folder or one of those cheap vinyl binders that you can buy at the local drug store. There are very nice binders on the market that hold sheets just as well as a hard/soft bound book. In fact, WotC could sell their own branded binders for each book and the sheets can come with custom 7 hole punches designed to match only their binders. The point is, the rules set can be maintained up to date.
Didn't they do this with 3e and didnt it fail so miserably they went back to hardcovers?
And why do you think that the hardcovers are outdated? Essentials is not a replacement product.
If you have an amazon link for the 3e product that supposedly did this, I'd like to see it, because I've never heard of them doing this before.
And the hardcovers are outdated because of all the Erratas. If I'm looking up a rule, I turn to the Compendium, the books can't be trusted.
I guess I didn't mean to suggest Essentials is a replacement product. What I meant is that I hesitate to buy new books, for the same reason I would never again by a hardbound encyclopedia. I would be much less likely to hesitate on a new book purchase, if I knew I could purchase replacement sheets for that book when the rules get erratad. Even if, for example, page 185 gets replaced with new pages 185 and 185b.
I personally ... Thoughts?
Didn't they do this with 3e and didnt it fail so miserably they went back to hardcovers?
And why do you think that the hardcovers are outdated? Essentials is not a replacement product.
We'll see. But... No. No one wants a rulebook like that.
Well... how much cheaper is it without... skin?
And some people actually like having books. It's a very different feel from, say, a binder full of rules - I know this as I have actually dealt with both, sometimes in the same session at once.
I'm not talking about a loose leaf folder or one of those cheap vinyl binders that you can buy at the local drug store. There are very nice binders on the market that hold sheets just as well as a hard/soft bound book. In fact, WotC could sell their own branded binders for each book and the sheets can come with custom 7 hole punches designed to match only their binders. The point is, the rules set can be maintained up to date.
That doesn't actually help matters, however.
Also, the core books are only outdated if you actually care about errata. How much of the non-DDI playerbase do you really think bothers with it?
I think you migh be alone in this idea. Why would anyone what to have to shuffle 200 sheets of paper?
+1. I like permanently bound books. I want to pay for the binding.
How much of the non-DDI playerbase do you really think bothers with it?
THAT is a very good question. I honestly have no idea.
For those who care not about erratas, I could understand why hardbound books would be preferred. To me, the erratas fix a lot of stuff that's broke, which is why I like to stay up to date.
+1. I like permanently bound books. I want to pay for the binding.
This would seem somewhat ironic, coming from someone who goes by Cyber-Dave. lol
Seriously, I understand lots of folks would prefer the hardbounds. I certainly prefer them over softbound. I too like that nice glossy book on my shelf. They especially look good as a collection. I just hate that I can't easily keep them up to date.
Didn't they do this with 3e and didnt it fail so miserably they went back to hardcovers?
You might be thinking of the Monstrous Compendium from the 2e days.
Also, the core books are only outdated if you actually care about errata. How much of the non-DDI playerbase do you really think bothers with it?
For me this. Im still using my hardcovers as is, (with some minor errata I am not using Essentials except for the RC) so for me the PHB/DMG/MM's are relevant.
Personally, the binding of the book and the hardback are the best defense against play ware on products, and greatly increase the lifespan of the average product.
Didn't they do this with 3e and didnt it fail so miserably they went back to hardcovers?
It was the 2e Monster manuals that did that.
Oh how I hated those things.
It was the 2e Monster manuals that did that.
Oh how I hated those things.
But did 2e have many rules updates? I skipped from AD&D to 3Ed, so I wouldn't know. Regardless, 4e has taken rules updates up several levels.
Also, I don't think comparisons to product lines tried out for 2e are fair. D&D saw a reawakening as a result of 3Ed. There is just a much bigger player base now.
It just isn't as good as you think it is.
Well, it is fair, because it's not an issue of whether there were updates. Rather it's an issue of how well the product held up in that permutation. The fact is, there were a lot of complaints about the binder format. Things just didn't hold up well. With too much stuff in it the binder itself fell apart. Pages tore and fell out.
It just isn't as good as you think it is.
I do realize the pages take more wear and tear in a binder. It's just that I've encountered several legal treatises and similar works that get regularly updated and use a binder format, like what I'm suggesting, and they seem to hold-up. Granted, they probably don't get used as regularly as D&D books.
Regardless, the lack of positive feedback for this idea from this forum is probably telling enough.
Well, it is fair, because it's not an issue of whether there were updates. Rather it's an issue of how well the product held up in that permutation. The fact is, there were a lot of complaints about the binder format. Things just didn't hold up well. With too much stuff in it the binder itself fell apart. Pages tore and fell out.
It just isn't as good as you think it is.
I do realize the pages take more wear and tear in a binder. It's just that I've encountered several legal treatises and similar works that get regularly updated and use a binder format, like what I'm suggesting, and they seem to hold-up. Granted, they probably don't get used as regularly as D&D books.
Regardless, the lack of positive feedback for this idea from this forum is probably telling enough.
Again, supporting my position. Besides, with monthly updates available on the site, what could be easier than printing out pages that are already edited, especially with modern printers that make 2-sided printing possible for nearly anyone.
www.multimanpublishing.com/tabid/58/Prod...
This 80 dollar manual of the game comes in a 3 ring binder (of limited over all quality I know of course I have it). It has seen a few modules get released where they have been able to insert new pages for the manual when errata has been introduced.
The point I am about to make, is the binder is substandard and does not really perform. So you end up wanting a decent one. And if you think Wizards is going to pony up for a decent binder, you are a fool.
The amount of times I have seen guys go to great expense to take the three ringed manual pages and then go and have it binded by a proper binding service is not small in number.
And I can assure you, errata will always mean a dozen times more to a wargamer, than a role gamer.
Yet they go and take a 3 ring binder type product, and have it bound.
My advice to you, if you truly prefer binder over bound, is to take the bound book, remove all the pages (yes this means what it sounds like it means) and then have them put in page protectors put into a binder.
Currently my ASL manual sits in a GOOD binder and in page protectors. It's because I demanded it that way.
As it goes though, I demand my role gaming books be bound.
As it goes, I generally don't give a damn about errata in games where I can make rules changes on a whim. It's not like it's a wargame where the rules are not open for debate, only editing for typos.
Sure softcover and a typical reduction in price would be nice. I have noticed my friend's collection of Palladium rpg manuals has not suffered unduly from not being hard cover.
Hardcover is nicer, but cheaper is nothing to fluff off immediately too.
Rules Compendium at 20 bucks for instance is a maybe if I have 20 bucks and nothing else I want at the moment. Full hardcover cost though is a dead stop not interested in it option though.
I re entered D&D based almost 50% of my decision being based on the books were hard cover and excellent physical quality.
Wizards does a lot of dumb things, but good quality hard covers was at least not one of their dumb choices.
I do realize the pages take more wear and tear in a binder. It's just that I've encountered several legal treatises and similar works that get regularly updated and use a binder format, like what I'm suggesting, and they seem to hold-up. Granted, they probably don't get used as regularly as D&D books.
Regardless, the lack of positive feedback for this idea from this forum is probably telling enough.
And that's the kicker right there. The 2e Monster Manuals in binder format seemed like a good idea but they just weren't sturdy enough to stand up to being coninually referenced in a weekly game. I think stock in the company that makes those little round re-inforcing rings for binder pages went up 10,000% in the months following TSR's release of books in that format.
It is hard to overstate just how bad those 2E Monstrous Compendium binders were. You cannot do them justice without violating the forum's code of conduct. But here's the expletive-free, family-friendly skinny:
(1) The pages did not hold up to the frequent use the game requires.
(2) There was so much content that it required two very large, cumbersome, difficult-to-travel-with binders.
(3) They took up far more space on the shelf than they would have had they been bound as books.
(4) The multiple creature supplement products were not synchronized with the pre-existing ones in mind, such that you could not completely/perfectly alphabatize the monsters for easy reference.
TSR eventually gave up on the product and released a hardback version of the Monstrous Compendium that contained the standard monsters.
realize that most players could care less whether the $20-$40 D&D book they just bought was permanently bound,
I disagree. I care and I don't think that I am part of the minority in this
I do realize the pages take more wear and tear in a binder. It's just that I've encountered several legal treatises and similar works that get regularly updated and use a binder format, like what I'm suggesting, and they seem to hold-up. Granted, they probably don't get used as regularly as D&D books.
To reinforce somehting TsukinoUsagi said, the problem is just as much that the binder they are in is of crap quality. Those legal treatises are probably in heavy duty, industrial strength, expensive binders made from the freshly flayed skin of fresh from the womb babies of endangered species (because, you know, lawyers are evil, and they all probably have an appendix from Iggwilv's in the back of them).
An RPG company would release them in cheap binders like the monstrous compendium which was really just stiff carboard with a pretty wrap and didn't hold up to a minimum of ab/use. Mostly because the average gamer wouldn't pay the money for the super expensive good binder.
Well... unless they made it a rare limited edition collectible item, then gamers would snatch it up like hotcakes. Look what happened with the rare special edition of Dark Heresy that ran for almost $200. It was sold out in preorder.
I do realize the pages take more wear and tear in a binder. It's just that I've encountered several legal treatises and similar works that get regularly updated and use a binder format, like what I'm suggesting, and they seem to hold-up. Granted, they probably don't get used as regularly as D&D books.
To reinforce somehting TsukinoUsagi said, the problem is just as much that the binder they are in is of crap quality. Those legal treatises are probably in heavy duty, industrial strength, expensive binders made from the freshly flayed skin of fresh from the womb babies of endangered species (because, you know, lawyers are evil, and they all probably have an appendix from Iggwilv's in the back of them).
An RPG company would release them in cheap binders like the monstrous compendium which was really just stiff carboard with a pretty wrap and didn't hold up to a minimum of ab/use. Mostly because the average gamer wouldn't pay the money for the super expensive good binder.
Well... unless they made it a rare limited edition collectible item, then gamers would snatch it up like hotcakes. Look what happened with the rare special edition of Dark Heresy that ran for almost $200. It was sold out in preorder.
And dont forget that binders that are good for 200+ pages, heck even 100+ pages, take allot of space vs. content. That is because binders have more air space then regular books and normal books have an easy form to fit in almost all transports. And dont forget the feel of a new book.
And if someone really want the content in a binder: (this will only work with the harcover books, being around A4 internation format)
Step 1 : Cut out all the pages of a book.
step 2 : put them in in the maps.
step 3 : put those maps in the binder.
step 4 : Add Errata.
Step 5 : Succes
Didn't they do this with 3e and didnt it fail so miserably they went back to hardcovers?
You might be thinking of the Monstrous Compendium from the 2e days.
I can think of two times when I've seen something like this, and neither was much of a success in my opinion.
1. The Monstrous Compendium from 2E. The two problems I had were that the paper was too thin and they printed monsters on both sides so later they weren't all in alphabetical order. Printing one to a page and on sturdy paper could still work, but I suspect they won't try that experiment again. The nice thing was that you could have two notebooks -- one with the monsters you use and another with the ones you don't.
2. Star Fleet Battles did this with their rulebook "back in the day" where you bought boxed sets I, II, and III, and all of the rules were three-hole punched and ready to be put together. Updates often meant you removed a page and replaced it with a corrected one. Again the paper was too thin. In addition, there were so many rules that the binder got thick in a hurry. And they did a better job of printing things to be inserted in between other pages (not alphabetical, but organizationally the same thing) but that meant a lot of wasted white space on the pages.
I'm sure other games must have tried it, but those are the two examples that come to mind. TsukinoUsagi already mentioned ASL, but I never played it so I can't say personally about how well the notebooks worked in everyday use.
I really like the binder idea. But not as the default set. I collect stamps and all of the really nice stamp albums are leather bound with a way to add new pages every year for new stamps. Each page is numbered. You buy the supplements annually and they contain replacement pages for the previous years errata along with all of the new materials.
I would suggest that something like this would be a much better solution for a DELUXE edition rather than that cheesy version we had of the original 3 books (double the cost but no discernable difference). I would not mind buying the two core books in this format. I would leave the remaining books out of this format (unless it was really needed).
You buy a Deluxe DM Guide and it has all of the material on 2-sided color pages in a nice leather binder and all of the material from DMG1 and DMG2 plus all errata. You have the option of buying annual updates that correct the problems and include new material.
You would also buy a Deluxe PH and it has all of the material in the same format in a nice leather binder and all of the materials from the PH1, PH2, PH3, and Essentials. You have the option of buying annual updates that correct problems and include new material.
It works really well with stamp albums. They get around the pages being dupluicated by printing them on a non-standard paper size with holes punched just for the books.
The format is a bit larger on the shelf and more expensive, but would satisfy all of the whiners out there.
The concept of a fully-interactive and updatable hard-copy reference document seems nice until it is fully implemented in practice. The AD&D2E Monstrous Compendium binder was a monster in and of itself. I even used all of my allowance to invest in a top-quality binder and archival page sleeves, which did nothing to compensate for the unwieldy ridiculousness of the whole fiasco. Not gamer friendly, certainly not earth friendly, and not an investment worth making. I honestly think that thing was the only gaming product I ever straight threw in the trash, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
Here's a better idea...
How about downloadable PDF's that can be replaced as errata is added to them a la Paizo? (yeah, I said it)
It would be fairly easy to impliment a registration of a hard copy, and then through that registration allow pdf files of the most up to date as well as smaller files with just the updates to be down loaded. By registering the isbn you would limit the number of people that had access.
Though to be honest this would still make it relatively easy to pirate and distribute the information.
May be a PDF like file that required a down loader only available after registration. Call it DDIDf or even WDF (WoTC Document File).
as far as having the update to be purchased, that would turn alot of members away.
1. pay 20-30 for the book
2. pay another good bit for decent binder call it 10-20 (one book now costs 30-50)
3. Pay a quarterly or annual fee for updates; probably about $5 per up date (an edition that lasts 5 years is now looking at another $25 dollar fee at a minimum giving us $55-75 per book, in a system that always had three core books or started out with three your looking at an easy $165-225 just for the core set; compare that to the current $60-90 being dished out for the books and your asking a hell of allot for a lower quality product (in terms of endurance).
No if they want to do something like this it should be as a feature of the purchase, hell even if they only included the ability with a ddi subscription and the isbn that would still be better than the production model you speak of.
NOTE: figures presented here in do not reflect the current cost or worth of any product, nor was any number generated using historical data. These figures are from the top of my head and are only demonstrative of the point about the actual product cost.
Trust this old timer... Hardcover good, binder frustrating.
That said, I can understand the OP's point with having a kind of binder setup where you can put inserts as things are updated...but I still wouldn't want to lug around a binder.
While I like the new Compact design I know from experience that soft covers will not stand up to the abuse/use that a hardcover book will. I hope they go back to the hardcover format after Essentials.
I agree 100% with one exception... the Rules Compendium. If there is ever an update to this book, I'd like it to stay as a smaller sized soft cover. It's been extremely handy to throw this book in my book bag and pass it around the table. One suggestion though... find a way to create a softcover binding that doesn't shed pages so quickly. My RC is a month old and already I have 2 pages out.
This is the 21st century. I find it hard to believe they can't make a softcover binding that doesn't shed pages.